Thankyou for the mention (albeit brief) of the two Robot-friendly scales. Also, this overall 2023 video was appreciated. I stumbled upon it while viewing various reviews on the DF64 Gen 2 and DF64V. It's because of yours and one other well-known YT-er who commented on the DF64V's jamming/stalling issues, and its noise that I'll keep searching for my new grinder. The noise factor is not given enough attention in grinder design.
Thanks for the kind words! Keep in mind that the noise of DF64 Gen 2 is highly dependent on the burrs you put inside. It's not that bad with SSP HU or Cast. And DF64V actually sounds quite nice compared to most grinders.
It is fun to see what works for you and makes your coffee journey more fun or easier. I have had the searchpean tiny for a year now without issues. I think it is my most used coffee accessory. Particularly since I can use it for more than just espresso. More than just coffee really. I use it in cooking and baking too. Mostly as a timer, lol. One thing I have found that I don't reach for is my puck screen. I make a lot of espresso and espresso-based drinks in this household throughout the day. Eight at a minimum for myself and my family and I find it is just another step and something else to clean. If I were just pulling a single straight shot twice a day, sure. The Apex sure looks interesting. It hits a lot of marks that I have been looking for in a machine. (I typically use a Bambino.) Looking forward to seeing what the new year brings! Enjoy the end of the year holidays. And as always, thank you for sharing your knowledge and experiences with us.
Thanks for all your insights. I may have to try the Aeropress XL as I use the original every day. So much easier to use/clean than a French Press Happy Holidays.
I agree. I bought a DF64 Gen 2 equipped with DLC burrs (like the ones that come with the DF64V) and I'm very happy with it. Initially I was going to get a DF64V but those stalling issues everyone mentions really put me off.
Thanks for the tip about the ikape puck screen, just ordered one. Hopefully it’ll be better than the old traditional one that I have right now, it’s a nightmare to clean.
I really do love the Umikot. Cost maybe $3.50 to print it in really nice PETG-CF which looks seamless. Added bonus my MIL likes it because the name is Tagalog for “spin” or something lol.
Wondering if the stated 15 bars of pressure for the Mii machine actually means 15 bars at the brew head, though I guess you wouldn't have mentioned it if it weren't too high.
It depends on the resistance of the puck if you actually are brewing at 15 - so the fineness of the grind size. With my typical grind size I might see a peak at 12 bars. But actually a new Apex is coming out with an OPV at 9 bars, so in the future it shouldn't be a concern.
What would you rate the response time of both espresso scales when compared to, say, an Acaia Lunar? I’ve been searching for a good espresso scale on that particular regard, which is not absurdly expensive. These two options you presented seem to be good value for money. Thanks and Keep up the great work!
Thanks! I'll circle back to it in the new year. After releasing the video I noticed that the price has been further reduced, so that changes the equation somewhat if it's a permanent move.
Hi Asser, in the written review of the DF64-2 you seemed to be a bit lukewarm and saying that if any aspect is not optimized then the JX will be better than SSP. Yet in the ZP6 review you said that it's far away from SSP. So the differences between perfectly optimized aligned vs not really is that big?
As far as I recall, that's what I said about Gen 1; perhaps it's unclear in some passages on the blog whether I talk about Gen 1 or Gen 2. The gen 1 burrs were a bit more muddy, and the grinder was overall more prone to having problems with regrinding and misalignment. But the issues are now fixed with Gen 2 + better stock burrs, so yes, I definitely rate it over Jx.
Do you mean 64 MP in DF64 gen 2? I feel the same way about those burrs as many other coffee folks do in 2023; they make very unique espresso, great for light roasts. With some beans, they make fantastic pour-over, but they are very hit-and-miss. If I only could own set of 64 mm burrs for pour over I'd take Cast or Ode Gen 2 over it. I haven't owned a Vario/Forte, but I had coffee from them. @@ductrung3993
@@coffeechronicler yes thats what i meant! I have a zp6 and is looking for the next upgrade (80% pour over and 20% espresso). 64MP is the popular choice but their finicki-ness is a concern…i have heard great things about Vario Steel burr too but dont like that grinder too much…
Tough call, but a DF with MP or Cast. Or Ode Gen 2. All would give you something different. Maybe wait a couple of months and see how Cast V3 turns is received.@@ductrung3993
Epicyclic gear trains have been around for 100s of years. It's very clever of Weber to apply it to WDT, but when the idea can be executed by people 3d printing at home, it's, in my eyes, fair use. With the opposite perspective, we'd only have one brand of lever espresso machines, one brand making manual grinders with crooked handles, etc. Not good for competition or innovation. Personally, I'd never spent the outrageous money for the Moonraker, and I think many people in the same boat.
Actually, the Moonraker is a more polished version of spirographic WDT tools that have been on Etsy for a few years now. Weber took someone else's design, and went high end on the gears, needles, and tooling.
@@coffeechronicler This is true, we definitely want variations in designs to hone in on what is best and to focus on different aspects and competition encourages innovation. We shouldn't ignore the other side of the coin though, which is that companies can be disincentivised from R&D and developing new designs and products when they can be quickly and cheaply copied by imitators. This can reduce innovation. It's why we have intellectual property laws. As you say though, I would never be spending the sort of money they want for a Moonraker as much as I like it so I don't think these cheaper versions are eating into their market in this case.
My biggest gripe with 3D printed parts or workflow accessories is that for me personally coffee making is very much a tactile and sensory experience. It’s meditative. I enjoy making coffee more than I enjoy drinking it on most days. I don’t think a 3d printed tool with plastic gears mashing together will provide that pleasant experience every morning for me.
Appreciate the year end review Asser, good choices all around. I'm currently testing the Legato / CRM3007L / MiiCoffee Apex too, and other than being super frustrated by the lack of hot water functions (and a bit frustrated by the bad implementation of preinfusion, and the timed auto button (instead of volumetric), overall, it's a pretty impressive machine at the $500 price point. I will definitely be looking forward to your full review on the Flair 58. I love that machine. They just need to figure out the power brick / control box for it, and it would be very close to perfection.
Thanks, Mark; getting a nice comment like that from a review veteran like yourself definitely made my day! About the Flair power brick and cable - I noticed that the set that came with 58+ is smaller and more elegant than the original F58. Don't know if you also have this version, but it seems like they are moving in the right direction here as well.
I also love using the Flair 58, together with an Acaia Lunar and a flow app (Pressensor CF) - using slow grinders such as the Niche Zero and a manual Bplus Apollo. Temperature control is pretty consistent, after some experience and manual temp measurements. Pressure control is very stable, but flow is more important. Possibility of flow control became my No 1 priority feature in espresso makers. Looking at the flow in the app while brewing, you can make a lot of (manual) flow profiles, which actually matter quite much for the taste. The manual control of the flow is pretty good and stable with the Flair 58 (judged against the preloaded reference sessions of professional espresso machines), but it's much easier to keep the pressure steady than the flow - therefore puck preparation gets more time and care nowadays. The smaller Flair Pro is almost as good for the end result, but less consistent and far more cumbersome, especially with preheating. But at least it's more portable. Speaking about that, the Wacaco Picopresso is the smallest acceptable espresso maker for me, very portable, but doesn't make as good espresso as the Flair Pro - so the latter is my car travel kit, the Picopresso is the flying travel kit, both served by manual grinder.
My current regular setup: Flair 58, DF64V, Pesado HE basket, Searchpean TIny 2s for the flair, Normcore for pour over. Time More B75 dripper. And a mix of drippers a hand grinder and some other baskets to change between if I get stuck. - Btw - I lost my sense of smell (note taste) to covid a few years back - very fast recovery thought - few weeks. But a few months later I got some seasonal food that clearly did not taste fully as normal. Now all is fine. Best advice is to keep challenging your senses! Some regular stuff you know every day and once in awhile something completely different so see if you are all the way back.Wish you a fast and full recovery!.
I like virtually everything about the DF64 Gen 2 except the aesthetics. The performance, price point, functionality, technology, etc. are all top notch, but it's so ugly, I just couldn't ever bring myself to put it on my kitchen countertop. No way.
Have you used these puck screens mentioned here with the Flair 58? Was thinking of getting an extra screen to have on hand so maybe I’ll try one of these.
Yes, don't notice any difference. When you lift the lever, you'll introduce a bit of water to the puck, but even with the old puck screen, you get a bit of that.
You compare the MiiCoffee Apex with the Lelit Elizabeth. I live in Denmark (like your self) and Elizabeth is one that I have a good eye for buying as my next machine. Its just under 10k Danish kr and can be bought locally with the added ensurance to be able to deliver it back physically in case of warranty related issues. Can you recommend the Elizabeth or should I wait for an updated Apex? Thanks for your patience and passion 🫶
My prediction is that the Apex will be available in the EU at around half the price of the Elizabeth and almost on the same level in practice. On paper, it definitely beats Victoria. So yes, I'd probably wait.
it is already sold in hungary under the AVX brand, although that is based on the CRM3007F platform instead of the updated CRM3007L in the Miicoffee - the former has no pressure gauge and a smaller thermoblock and no adjustable preinfusion, but by default it has 2s on - 2s off preinf. Also, you can order it with a 9bar OPV (I built one in manually myself). If you're willing to tinker then it's the best bang-for-buck machine out there IMHO.
I hope you get a new mic or upgrade the audio interface in 2024 for improved overall sound quality. Your current setup is definitely better than it was 2-3 years ago, but there's still lots of room for improvement, in my humble opinion.
Great recap. Thanks for sharing your '23 favorites.
Thanks for the support, Bruce!
Thankyou for the mention (albeit brief) of the two Robot-friendly scales. Also, this overall 2023 video was appreciated. I stumbled upon it while viewing various reviews on the DF64 Gen 2 and DF64V. It's because of yours and one other well-known YT-er who commented on the DF64V's jamming/stalling issues, and its noise that I'll keep searching for my new grinder. The noise factor is not given enough attention in grinder design.
Thanks for the kind words! Keep in mind that the noise of DF64 Gen 2 is highly dependent on the burrs you put inside. It's not that bad with SSP HU or Cast. And DF64V actually sounds quite nice compared to most grinders.
I bought the puck screen in 2023 too, highly recommending it
thank you. great products, good to hear about the ones you've liked the most. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to your and yours!
What about the DeLonghi in the thumbnail? I was interested in hearing about it, since it's a tiny cheap boiler machine.
It is fun to see what works for you and makes your coffee journey more fun or easier.
I have had the searchpean tiny for a year now without issues. I think it is my most used coffee accessory. Particularly since I can use it for more than just espresso. More than just coffee really. I use it in cooking and baking too. Mostly as a timer, lol.
One thing I have found that I don't reach for is my puck screen. I make a lot of espresso and espresso-based drinks in this household throughout the day. Eight at a minimum for myself and my family and I find it is just another step and something else to clean. If I were just pulling a single straight shot twice a day, sure.
The Apex sure looks interesting. It hits a lot of marks that I have been looking for in a machine. (I typically use a Bambino.)
Looking forward to seeing what the new year brings! Enjoy the end of the year holidays. And as always, thank you for sharing your knowledge and experiences with us.
Thanks for all your insights.
I may have to try the Aeropress XL as I use the original every day. So much easier to use/clean than a French Press
Happy Holidays.
Glad I subscribed and Happy Christmas
I agree. I bought a DF64 Gen 2 equipped with DLC burrs (like the ones that come with the DF64V) and I'm very happy with it. Initially I was going to get a DF64V but those stalling issues everyone mentions really put me off.
Thank you for this video! Very useful!
Thanks for the tip about the ikape puck screen, just ordered one. Hopefully it’ll be better than the old traditional one that I have right now, it’s a nightmare to clean.
I really do love the Umikot. Cost maybe $3.50 to print it in really nice PETG-CF which looks seamless. Added bonus my MIL likes it because the name is Tagalog for “spin” or something lol.
I got the same puck screens, I'm mad never knew there's one with BENO on it! :D I must get that one lol
Great informative video, thanks!
Yes to Umikot!!!
Awesome video.
Wondering if the stated 15 bars of pressure for the Mii machine actually means 15 bars at the brew head, though I guess you wouldn't have mentioned it if it weren't too high.
It depends on the resistance of the puck if you actually are brewing at 15 - so the fineness of the grind size. With my typical grind size I might see a peak at 12 bars. But actually a new Apex is coming out with an OPV at 9 bars, so in the future it shouldn't be a concern.
What would you rate the response time of both espresso scales when compared to, say, an Acaia Lunar? I’ve been searching for a good espresso scale on that particular regard, which is not absurdly expensive. These two options you presented seem to be good value for money. Thanks and Keep up the great work!
You can get a VBM Domabar SUPER ELECTRONIC volumetric Dual boiler with a gear pump for 1,8k
Point taken :) The Apex is not quite up there.
Great overview. Let us know how the Aeropress XL worked out.
Thanks! I'll circle back to it in the new year. After releasing the video I noticed that the price has been further reduced, so that changes the equation somewhat if it's a permanent move.
Great news
Do you plan on trying the Zerno Z1 grinder? I think it’s debatably the best grinder of 2023
I'd like to try it, but due to logistics and availability, it's not been possible yet. Hopefully in the new year.
I didn’t know you picked up the Deep 27 Flower dripper! Excited for the full review and recipe recommendation!
Hi Asser, in the written review of the DF64-2 you seemed to be a bit lukewarm and saying that if any aspect is not optimized then the JX will be better than SSP. Yet in the ZP6 review you said that it's far away from SSP. So the differences between perfectly optimized aligned vs not really is that big?
As far as I recall, that's what I said about Gen 1; perhaps it's unclear in some passages on the blog whether I talk about Gen 1 or Gen 2. The gen 1 burrs were a bit more muddy, and the grinder was overall more prone to having problems with regrinding and misalignment. But the issues are now fixed with Gen 2 + better stock burrs, so yes, I definitely rate it over Jx.
@@coffeechronicler I meant to ask solely about the 64MP burr! Btw, have you tried Vario/Forte with the Ditting Steel burr as well?
Do you mean 64 MP in DF64 gen 2? I feel the same way about those burrs as many other coffee folks do in 2023; they make very unique espresso, great for light roasts. With some beans, they make fantastic pour-over, but they are very hit-and-miss. If I only could own set of 64 mm burrs for pour over I'd take Cast or Ode Gen 2 over it.
I haven't owned a Vario/Forte, but I had coffee from them. @@ductrung3993
@@coffeechronicler yes thats what i meant! I have a zp6 and is looking for the next upgrade (80% pour over and 20% espresso). 64MP is the popular choice but their finicki-ness is a concern…i have heard great things about Vario Steel burr too but dont like that grinder too much…
Tough call, but a DF with MP or Cast. Or Ode Gen 2. All would give you something different. Maybe wait a couple of months and see how Cast V3 turns is received.@@ductrung3993
You need video editor ??
Interesting that you listed the Umikot when it’s effectively a 3d printed version of the Weber Moonraker
Epicyclic gear trains have been around for 100s of years. It's very clever of Weber to apply it to WDT, but when the idea can be executed by people 3d printing at home, it's, in my eyes, fair use. With the opposite perspective, we'd only have one brand of lever espresso machines, one brand making manual grinders with crooked handles, etc. Not good for competition or innovation. Personally, I'd never spent the outrageous money for the Moonraker, and I think many people in the same boat.
Actually, the Moonraker is a more polished version of spirographic WDT tools that have been on Etsy for a few years now. Weber took someone else's design, and went high end on the gears, needles, and tooling.
Important historical insight, thanks for sharing!@@CoffeeGeek
@@coffeechronicler This is true, we definitely want variations in designs to hone in on what is best and to focus on different aspects and competition encourages innovation. We shouldn't ignore the other side of the coin though, which is that companies can be disincentivised from R&D and developing new designs and products when they can be quickly and cheaply copied by imitators. This can reduce innovation. It's why we have intellectual property laws. As you say though, I would never be spending the sort of money they want for a Moonraker as much as I like it so I don't think these cheaper versions are eating into their market in this case.
My biggest gripe with 3D printed parts or workflow accessories is that for me personally coffee making is very much a tactile and sensory experience. It’s meditative. I enjoy making coffee more than I enjoy drinking it on most days. I don’t think a 3d printed tool with plastic gears mashing together will provide that pleasant experience every morning for me.
God bedring for The covid :)
Tak🙏
Appreciate the year end review Asser, good choices all around. I'm currently testing the Legato / CRM3007L / MiiCoffee Apex too, and other than being super frustrated by the lack of hot water functions (and a bit frustrated by the bad implementation of preinfusion, and the timed auto button (instead of volumetric), overall, it's a pretty impressive machine at the $500 price point. I will definitely be looking forward to your full review on the Flair 58. I love that machine. They just need to figure out the power brick / control box for it, and it would be very close to perfection.
Thanks, Mark; getting a nice comment like that from a review veteran like yourself definitely made my day! About the Flair power brick and cable - I noticed that the set that came with 58+ is smaller and more elegant than the original F58. Don't know if you also have this version, but it seems like they are moving in the right direction here as well.
I also love using the Flair 58, together with an Acaia Lunar and a flow app (Pressensor CF) - using slow grinders such as the Niche Zero and a manual Bplus Apollo. Temperature control is pretty consistent, after some experience and manual temp measurements. Pressure control is very stable, but flow is more important. Possibility of flow control became my No 1 priority feature in espresso makers. Looking at the flow in the app while brewing, you can make a lot of (manual) flow profiles, which actually matter quite much for the taste. The manual control of the flow is pretty good and stable with the Flair 58 (judged against the preloaded reference sessions of professional espresso machines), but it's much easier to keep the pressure steady than the flow - therefore puck preparation gets more time and care nowadays. The smaller Flair Pro is almost as good for the end result, but less consistent and far more cumbersome, especially with preheating. But at least it's more portable. Speaking about that, the Wacaco Picopresso is the smallest acceptable espresso maker for me, very portable, but doesn't make as good espresso as the Flair Pro - so the latter is my car travel kit, the Picopresso is the flying travel kit, both served by manual grinder.
My current regular setup: Flair 58, DF64V, Pesado HE basket, Searchpean TIny 2s for the flair, Normcore for pour over. Time More B75 dripper. And a mix of drippers a hand grinder and some other baskets to change between if I get stuck. - Btw - I lost my sense of smell (note taste) to covid a few years back - very fast recovery thought - few weeks. But a few months later I got some seasonal food that clearly did not taste fully as normal. Now all is fine. Best advice is to keep challenging your senses! Some regular stuff you know every day and once in awhile something completely different so see if you are all the way back.Wish you a fast and full recovery!.
Great setup! Good to hear about the fast recovery.
I like virtually everything about the DF64 Gen 2 except the aesthetics. The performance, price point, functionality, technology, etc. are all top notch, but it's so ugly, I just couldn't ever bring myself to put it on my kitchen countertop. No way.
They're so much nicer looking than any niche grinder to me 😅
@@NippyKindLangur234 Yes, the Niche grinders look like big toys, but these DF64s look like tin cans.
sharing knowledge and wisdom again, thank you Sir!
Please time stamp
Done!
@@coffeechronicler thank you very much 😁
If I already own a Eureka Specialita would the df64 g2 be that much of an upgrade?
It depends... Specialita is great for classic espresso, but DF will open many new doors, especially for manual brewing
Have you used these puck screens mentioned here with the Flair 58? Was thinking of getting an extra screen to have on hand so maybe I’ll try one of these.
Yes, don't notice any difference. When you lift the lever, you'll introduce a bit of water to the puck, but even with the old puck screen, you get a bit of that.
What is that silver grinder in the background on the right??
Maybe you mean Gevi Grindmaster?
Would be really interested to know how many cups the areopress XL can do in one go
I have a video about that where I try to test it to the max capacity.
You compare the MiiCoffee Apex with the Lelit Elizabeth. I live in Denmark (like your self) and Elizabeth is one that I have a good eye for buying as my next machine. Its just under 10k Danish kr and can be bought locally with the added ensurance to be able to deliver it back physically in case of warranty related issues. Can you recommend the Elizabeth or should I wait for an updated Apex?
Thanks for your patience and passion 🫶
My prediction is that the Apex will be available in the EU at around half the price of the Elizabeth and almost on the same level in practice. On paper, it definitely beats Victoria. So yes, I'd probably wait.
Great, thank you 🙏
it is already sold in hungary under the AVX brand, although that is based on the CRM3007F platform instead of the updated CRM3007L in the Miicoffee - the former has no pressure gauge and a smaller thermoblock and no adjustable preinfusion, but by default it has 2s on - 2s off preinf. Also, you can order it with a 9bar OPV (I built one in manually myself). If you're willing to tinker then it's the best bang-for-buck machine out there IMHO.
I hope you get a new mic or upgrade the audio interface in 2024 for improved overall sound quality. Your current setup is definitely better than it was 2-3 years ago, but there's still lots of room for improvement, in my humble opinion.
I already bought an expensive mic in 2023, so don't plan more investments in this area. However, I might have to get better at tweaking the settings.