The TMEA Judging Process Behind the Scenes
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- Опубліковано 24 гру 2024
- The TMEA Judging Process
This video was made in response to a request to talk about the judging process behind the scenes. I have judged more than a typical non-band director would, because I want that experience for the sake of my students.
Some people say that the tmea auditions are rigged. This has never been true. There are safeguards in place to prevent the objectivity of the audition process.
Eddie Lewis' Websites:
www.EddieLewis.com
eltigredo.com/blog
![Words of advice from a TMEA All-State Symphony Concertmaster [Q&A] - Steven Lu](/img/n.gif)
there was a kid that played the first 4 notes of the 1st etude over and over again
Yeah that’s the kind of thing I was talking about in the video.
Elaborate?
I competed for All State Choir in '89 and '90. Even back then, they used to drop the lowest and the highest scores
That's right. I think they've used that system for a long time now.
@@eltigredo I'm a little confused about how the dropping the highest score is fair. Hypothetically what if a person who is indisputably better then all the candidates auditions. Wouldn't their score be the highest on every judges score sheet? The score would then be dropped and then the strongest person auditioning wouldn't make it. Or is their something in place to prevent this from happening?
@@guitarandgaming1 They don't drop the highest score for each judge, they drop the highest score for each student. The student will get five scores, one from each judge. The highest of those five will be dropped and the lowest of those five will be dropped. then they average the three that are left. That will be the student's score.
@@eltigredo Okay, thanks! Great video.
@@guitarandgaming1 Thank you. We are doing a live &A today at 5:00 Houston time if you are interested.
How much does it affect a person’s score (and likelihood to rank high) if a player messed up in an excerpt but you can still tell they are a strong player because they recovered really well?
That really depends on the judges. I have another video called Competition in Music that talks about the judges preferences. But in general, if you make mistakes, in this TMEA system, it doesn't have nearly the impact on your placement that the students think it does.
I do not usually get another judge’s perspective, so this is interesting. With region season coming up, I can say having been a judge that I do have a scoring system . Being placed in the 90s, 80s, 70s, 60s, and so on means something as far as how the student played overall. It can be relative though if I have a really weak room or strong room, but I come in with an idea in mind and start with a generic rubric in mind. My priorities:
1. Right notes, rhythms, and articulations, and at least a decent tone quality (I leave a lot of room on this because teachers have different tonal concepts).
2. Appropriate tempos both for the etude and for the player to play successfully at.
3. Quality of Articulation
4. Phrasing, Style, and Contrast
5. Tone Quality (more of a tiebreaker) My philosophy is that most of the time you won’t be successful at No. 1 without at least a decent tone quality. I have heard players with a great sound who do not play the right notes and rhythms at all but never the reverse.
I do not write off a student for bombing an etude. Each etude performance stands on its own. This is my system, and others have their own system. I have judged in three different TMEA regions and one time at the area level. I have run into tiebreakers many times and do use my comments to break them. The larger the number of people auditioning, the more issues you have with tiebreakers. For specific tips, I reserve that for my students or whomever I work with. But, I have no problem with sharing my judging system because I do think students should have an idea of how they are being evaluated.
As a judge in region and state you’ve probably heard and judged a bunch of different types of people with many different types of playing styles and skills. Can you explain the difference in people that don’t make region, to people that do make region, and those who go onto state?
I would like to encourage you to think of it differently. It is not the person who wins the contest, it is that student's performance. Does that make sense. People don't make region or all-state because of who they are. They make region or all-state because they did well.
This is a VERY important point because there are a lot of really fine trumpet players who end up NOT making all-state. Are they "good enough" to make all-state? Yes. Did they perform well enough to make all-state? No.
And the same is true in the other direction. There are some extremely mediocre trumpet students who make all-state. Why? Because they worked hard and nailed the audition.
I have another video that talks about my philosophy about music competitions. You can see it here: ua-cam.com/video/vL94-Pl9cbw/v-deo.html
Watch that video and tell me if you think that answers your question.
how much money would you take to secure me as principal trumpet in the Jazz 1 state band?
Taylor Wood you can make all-state jazz band for free. Just be the best player in the audition. 😜
you know I was thinking about that star wars thing. Why would you practice and learn 3 songs only to play something like "Mary had a Little Lamb". I remember I had a friend who made it to area and in his audition for state, he said his slow song sounded airy and out of tune so before he got halfway he played one loud note, then left the room.
Yep, so you've seen it, too. I think it has to do with a person's character. I remember when I was a child, "good sportsmanship" was a big deal. The best "winners" were those who could lose without throwing a temper tantrum or whatever. It's a self control thing. But I don't believe self control is being taught like that anymore. So you have students who do what your friend did, basically having a temper tantrum in his audition.
But guess what!!! That's part of what the auditions are for. Those students shouldn't be in the All-State band. They don't have what it takes.
Comment 2: They don’t pay you? I don’t get paid because I’m a band director and my region requires me to judge or else I get sanctioned by TMEA. But lesson teachers, etc. are supposed to be paid by the district. If they are not paying you, I feel like that’s not right.
The only reason I mention pay is so the students can understand strategy.
They need to understand how much more important it is to “sound good” than it is to play perfectly. I want them to know what a drag judging can be, and how they can use that information in coming up with a strategy.
The 2nd and 3rd batch of judges who enter/leave the room should not see the 1st and 2nd judge's ratings. That way the last batch of judges would not biased the candidate's good or bad scores based on their previous performances.
I can see what you're saying, but I don't think the Texas system is setup in a way that can work like that. We are told to avoid ties, and you cannot avoid ties without seeing the previous scores.
Would you say tuba is the easiest instrument to make all state because of the amount of chairs there are to the amount of people trying out ratio? Also, do they still drop the highest and lowest scores?
I don't think it really works like that. You still have to be "the best" and all it takes is a few great players to bump you out of that spot. I actually think it makes it harder. When I was in high school, the jazz state auditions had the chairs split up. If you auditioned for the lead chair and lost, that was it for you. You didn't get a shot at second chair. The same was true for the jazz improv chair. That's what I auditioned for and I didn't make it. And when you think about it, all it takes is one great player to bump you out if there's only one spot.
If every judge had the same kid as their highest score, would you still drop the highest score for every judge? Because dropping that score wouldn't make sense
You misunderstood. Each student gets five rankings from five different judges. Each student’s top and bottom ranking is removed. In the end, EVERY student has three rankings that are then added together for a final ranking.
If the goal of the powers that be is superior quality: compete
Right. Something like that.
Do the same things apply for state jazz recordings? Because for this year we are going to have to send a recording
Yes, that’s something I forgot to mention. The only difference for recordings is that we listen to all four of your tracks and total your score immediately. Then we listen to the next player.
@@eltigredo Oh okay thank you
Would you get deducted anything for accidentally playing a little past the cut?
You know, that REALLY depends on the judge, If it was me, I would say, "no", I wouldn't deduct anything. But more importantly, please take to heart what I say in this video. There is NOTHING to deduct. It really doesn't work that way.
And if you apply what I say in the video to your question, I guess it is also important for me to say this.... that if you nailed it in every other way, I would be extremely surprised that someone gave you a bad score for going a little past the cut. However, if you sound awful (speaking only hypothetically), and you prolong the judges misery by playing past the cut, they YES, I could see that possibly causing them to give you an even worse score.
But still, the bottom line is that it really depends on the judge.
I've judged before. There's no standardized judging response to this, but I usually deduct 1 point per measure past the cut. This usually isn't enough to drop a chair but it can be.
It doesn't hurt as much as you might think. It's much worse if you don't play the entire cut (even if you try to play past the cut to "make up for what you didn't play"). That can cost you a lot of points (and will drop you several chairs).
for all state this year we recorded our area cuts for judges to determine our final chair order. does the same process apply in this case?
I can't say for sure, but probably. I've never been part of that specific process, so I can't say for certain.
Do judges typically judge by each etude or by the skill of the player overall? For example, if Bob was a noticeably talented player who did very well on his first etude, but messed up on his second etude, would you still score Bob higher than another player named John, a noticeably worse player who did horrible on the first etude, but did not mess up as much as Bob on the second etude?
I think my other video answers your questions better than I could in a comment here. It’s called Competition in Music. Competition in Music: Auditions, Contests and Tryouts
ua-cam.com/video/vL94-Pl9cbw/v-deo.html
How do you think I should approach fast sections that jump from high notes to low notes?
I talkd about this in the live stream Trumpet Q and A last friday. Here's a link to that video: ua-cam.com/video/ywjGnhadpf0/v-deo.html
@@eltigredo thanks!
This man is the Jesus of us texas kids rn
Wow. Now that was a very different kind of compliment. I think it was a compliment. I'll take it that way. I'm glad the videos are helping.
is this similar to how they do it in the vocal/choir auditions?
I believe so.
I’m a trombone player. Would I be able to take a lesson to hear what you have to teach?
Sure. Contact me on one of my websites and we will setup a time. EddieLewis.com
I’m probably going to post multiple comments on this video. Here goes.
Comment 1.) I hope most judges try to come up with a framework that makes the numbers they give the students come from a system of logical principles. I found this video by doing some research to see if anyone has a rubric they use or anything. There really needs to be a more unified system in place in which judges approach how they score students the same way.
I don’t believe a more unified system is possible. There are far too many cultural differences, across the spectrum. I’ve been informally interviewing judges for decades and I have seen no hint of consensus.
The fact that you mentioned lessons quite a bit has intrigued me. I live in South Texas and, frankly, there is only 1 person I could really get lessons from that is in close reach that I know of: the trumpet professor at the University of Texas Rio Grande Valley, although I know his price and it seems a little bit high. Just out of curiosity (sorry, can't drive to Houston for lessons), how much do you charge and think is a fair price? I feel that I am a very accomplished trumpet player, thank God, being a 2 time all-stater and ITG Youth Comp Finalist only being a senior so far, but the fact that I don't have a lesson teacher makes me wonder how much further ahead I could be :/ I only get to have a lesson with my school teacher about once a week. He's truly amazing but one hour a week, shared with other players might not be enough. My apologies for the bother but thank you, in advance.
I charge according to how many lessons you pay for at once. So, for an hour lesson, you could pay as much as $100 (if you only pay for one lesson at a time) or as little as $50 (if you pay for 12 lessons at a time). However, prices are relative. I charge what I do for two reasons, 1) because people in Houston will pay my rates. 2) because I also have other sources of income besides lessons. So I cannot afford to charge any less than I do. If I had to charge less, then I simply wouldn't teach lessons anymore. I hope that makes sense.
Congratulations on your progress already. You are certainly off to a good start. But I do think you would do even better with a qualified teacher.
Emmanuel Acevedo Congrats on lead trumpet man!
Thank you so much! It's such an honor and makes the grind feel SOOO worth it!@@tylerjones7806
Are you going to be at TMEA in February?
No. I wish I could but I’m working.
is this the same for atssb?
No clue what that stands for.
@@eltigredo Association (of) Texas Small School Bands. Its basically like TMEA, just for 1-4A schools. I believe it does have the same judging
It is very disrespectful to play something like Star Wars in an audition setting if it is not what one is supposed to play. But let us be very clear.... the complete score of Star Wars does not contain any “stupid” songs.
Haha... I don't remember saying that the star wars stuff was stupid. If that's how it came out, that's not what I meant.
Eddie Lewis 8:55 “...and you go in and play Star Wars or some other stupid song...” you implied that Star Wars was stupid. 🤷♀️
@@sophiamireles6871 any song played at an audition that is not actually the required audition piece would be stupid and insulting to everyone there
Lana Britt oh yeah I understand that. I know it’s insulting. I’ve competed for many years and I know it’s SUPER disrespectful when someone even plays careless whisper (I’m a sax) really loud as their warm up. I completely understand that playing anything other than the required music is disrespectful to not only judges but to everyone in the room.
We are in the 21st century, and we just now have minority director…pathetic
I’m confused. Director of what?