becoming fools | a visit from some JWs [cc]
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- Опубліковано 9 гру 2015
- An account of a summer of discussions with some Jehovah's Witnesses in my teenage years.
You can support the channel at: / theramintrees
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opening quote:
The mind should develop a blind spot whenever a dangerous thought
presented itself. Crimestop, they called it in Newspeak.
It includes the power of not grasping analogies,
of failing to perceive logical errors,
of misunderstanding the simplest arguments ....
and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought
which is capable of leading in a heretical direction.
-George Orwell, 1984
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subtitles
Bulgarian: Djeitko
Dutch: anonymous, but received with thanks!
Slovak: Peter Ščigulinský
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This was an unlisted easter egg video, accessible through hitting the multicoloured egg that appears onscreen in 'bending truth'. Owing to numerous enquiries, I decided to make it publicly accessible.
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music © TheraminTrees
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Funny how they mentioned "Thinking themselves wise, they became fools." Considering her facial expressions, she seems to have thought herself awfully wise...
It's a real testament to the uploader's skill that we can read the facial expressions of faceless animated people. Well done, Theramintrees.
I would have responded with "I agree." and see if her face shows the realization of what I mean.
I would have said "I know right?" With an awe-smiling face
Uno reverse card
Awe don't sell yourself short Sheila, have a good one now.
I remember about 20 years ago, we would get plagued by JWs all the time. Then one summer a friend of mine who happened to own a pygmy goat asked me if I would pet sit for her. I did and bought Kevin (goat) home with me and let him out into the garden. Kevin would often wander in and out of the house a bit like a spindly legged dog, anyhoo, one day there is a knock on the front door and it's the JWs, would I be interested in knowing about Jesus etc. I politely explained that I wasn't interested and at that moment the goat stuck his head round the door and stared at the pair of them. We all looked at each other and I said "sorry as you can see I'm a satanist", They left and never came back, in fact they would make a point visiting everyone else but would avoid our house like the plague.
I love this
did you get visited by satanists after writing this comment? lol
@@anime.soundtracks Satan's Witnesses knocked on her door the next Wednesday
Bwahahahahaha!
Hero
2:58 i don't blame them. us penguins stump everyone we encounter
oh god oh man!
Zyphon? what are YOU doing here?!
damn, never thought I'd see a youtuber I know here
@@-._Radixerus_.- ikr
But what about ostriches? They neither fly nor swim from what I know
"If you look at penguins swimming from under the water, they appear to be flying"
ouch the logic parts of my brain just got a cramp.
Funily enough swimming of Penguins is biomechanicly similiar to flight of other birds butbthat's just because it Is modified flight.
@@petrfedor1851 The locomotion of the mighty emu, however, looks nothing like flight. I was honestly a little disappointed they didn't respond with that.
@@Nixeu42 the number of flightless birds they could have chosen, and somehow the elders, or whoever the witnesses were going back to for answers, didn't see to account for any of them is the real problem. They have a handbook for getting out in front of people's questions, but somehow they'll still bring you the world's most falsifiable claim about birds, and not even attempt to cover their asses any more than "it looks like flying" it's frankly amazing they still exist. Like there are at the very least three JWs tackling this problem and they can't see that there are like 100 known species of ratites, and only some of them are extinct and some of them only went extinct well after Genesis was written, let alone when it's supposed to have been written. That's a pretty huge blindspot when every illustration of pairs of animals marching into Noah's Ark include the world's largest extant bird.
@@weatheranddarkness That's what happens when you deliberately and systematically stunt the critical thinking and education of your religion's adherents. The JWs really demonize college education, since they're evolution denying Young Earth Creationists. Biology, especially unusual biology, would probably be a particular blind-spot, due to that position. Mostly, though, they're just plain taught not to think. Led to some serious friction in my incredibly scientifically inclined family, after one of my aunts became a JW.
@@petrfedor1851more like flight is modified swimming, evolutionally speaking, when you fly you just swim in much less dense environment
Thank you for not forgetting their humanity.
Sometimes.
Runa Kinsley, what a wonderful and mature comment. Your words speak well of you. I do hope your a fellow Atheist, but if not, your words here tell me you're of sound mind.
@Nietzsche’s Disciple if i was not as worried about global warning, survival, traps, i would love conversing deep. But they don’t like me i guess.
Its okay they are just upset. Love you!
@The Wolf of Justice and Truth they are not the same persons but I can see your point, they still responsible for their preaching
This video brings up memories. Oh, how I hated knocking on doors. I look back and feel guilt for the people I helped recruit and shame for taking so long to realize that I was raised in an atrocious lie.
I can forgive you for recruiting people into a fringe religious belief, but did you have to knock at 8:00AM on a Saturday?
@@Waltham1892 worse. We usually started anywhere between 6:30 and 7:00.
@@switchtheflip9422 YOU WERE A MONSTER!
Anyone knocking on my door at 7:00AM on a Saturday had better be yelling "FIRE".
I once answered the door naked with a beer in my hand. They never returned.
@@switchtheflip9422 I wasn't fully functioning at that time of the day! Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Conclusion: If you are articulate and knowledgeable, do talk with them.
Any of their young members who can be moved to begin that ever so tiny process of thinking for themselves is worth the hassle. You may never know the outcome, but you give the opportunity.
They think they need to save you. Instead, you may have the opportunity to save someone. Be the pebble that one day becomes a landslide a mind.
I agree with you completely Deedless Deity!
That is more or less what I have been doing. I am agnostic, but my family is Buddhist. I know about Buddhist and Shinto spiritualism and teachings. Still, it is a pleasure to visit all sorts of churches, even if some of their teachings don't align with my ideals. While visiting an a church, I became more or less friends with a young boy who is a huge fan of Japanese stuff like I do, but he would swear about going to Japan and evangelize. In my latest talks, I had him know a few things that both align and contradict his teachings. He would bring up news from Buddhists and Shinto priests who converted into Christianity as a token of Christian success, and I would tell him that, well, Japanese have their own views about how nature is a manifestation of God and spiritualism in general isn't so different.
In the few times I contradicted his teachings on purpose, he would freeze for a second. Perhaps he thought I am wrong and should be converted, or perhaps I actually pulled a string in his heart. Either way, I am working my way into his heart to at least make him more moderate about his approach to faith, and that if not everyone converts during his evangelical quest, he at least would understand that people have free will, either as humans or as "given by God". Though I don't believe in it, merely saying to him that he "shouldn't feel bad if people don't accept Jesus, it is in their choice not to be saved" as right given by God himself would potentially make him much less... passionate about it.
It is a very slow process... It grinds on him as much as it grinds on me as well. But if he finds a more comfortable life away from such tight shackles he put on himself (mind you, the Church does NOT force you to do everything, it is always a choice), then I would be happy. If he becomes agnostic or even atheist, I don't care, I just want him to be more accepting of the fact people can live however they want, so long it doesn't harm other humans. Anything that makes someone live happily is worth the effort. And perhaps save some Japanese from dealing with the hassle of an evangelizing acolyte. They already have their own cultists to deal with.
I'm no one's savior.
I'm a fourth generation jw that woke up under a year ago. Your work, your videos have been life saving. For some reason watching them over and over again gives me peace of mind. Thank you for your videos. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Fourth generation. That's some deep planting. I'm glad you were able to make it out. Peace.
It’s disturbing to me that JWs can’t even make a theological argument on their own.
I used to do this with a par of nice ladies. They would come, we would talk, they would go away with more questions than answers. The next week, they would come back with some 'answers' that I would dismantle, again sending them away with more questions. I could see a change in them after a while. It was almost as if I became the other side of the coin. They wanted to know my reaction and view on the subjects they are bringing, rather than informing me of how my views were wrong without even knowing what they were. The talks were enjoyable to me, calming in a way, as I have always liked talking about religion to anyone that wants to actually talk. To them, though...
I was slowly converting them.
One day, I realized they had not come in a few weeks. I sadly thought to myself that their elders had told them to stop coming. I mentioned to my wife that I had not seen them in weeks. She responded...
"They came while you were at work a few weeks ago. I told them that you are angry and moody for the next few days after you talk and told them not to come back."
This, of course, was completely untrue. The truth of the matter is she is a Catholic, and overheard our conversations. When I was questioning the JW's views, it also, by default, questioned her own. She was OK with me talking to them at first, because they did not have her beliefs. However, as the conversation deepened with them, fundamental and universal religious beliefs and mechanics were under attack. Her beliefs were under attack. It was not me that was getting angry and moody for the next few days, it was her. She had to project those feelings onto me, though, in order for her to wash away any self-doubt.
It was then that I realized why religious people say all religious beliefs should be respected. Eventually, while attacking one religion, you will attack the core of all of them.
Edit - an update for the people that started showing up 3 years after I made this post. My wife stopped going to church shortly after I made this post, and has not gone a single time in the last two years. I never talked directly to her about religion, as it was not a topic she likes discussing with me. She is still mildly religious, but still never mentions it.
To some of you, your hateful responses are sad and pitiful. Get some help.
Utmoon Your wife will cheat on you, divorce you, take everything you have, alienate you from your children, and blame you for it.
Utmoon
Compelling story! Thanks for telling it!
Utmoon, how did things work out? Slappy,, that might be true, but it;s not really nice to say it like that
"It was then that I realized why religious people say all religious beliefs should be respected. Eventually, while attacking one religion, you will attack the core of all of them.
"
This is so fucking smart, and I'm going to steal it.
dawkinsfan41 Whether it’s nice to say it that way or not doesn’t matter in the slightest.
I was discussing some things with a Christian the other day, and he said to me: "If you discover the painter, you can appreciate the painting on another level." Referring to God and the world. I replied to him: "You are so focused on the painter, you are missing out on the painting."
Jessica Dragan These analogies are getting a bit out there
Thats great, but why dont you ask him to prove that he discovered a "painter" and that this "painter" actually exists in reality.
As soon as he demonstrates this, you can both have a conversation about how much you appreciate paintings or whatever.
Also, please point out to him that this is a logical fallacy, formally known as "Begging the Question", where the conclusion is included in the premise.
As soon as you assert that there is a painting, that means that there must be a painter. There is a building, therefore there must be a builder. These labels are attempts to smuggle God into the equation, without the audience's realization.
"Painting" necessarily implies a Painter. A Painting doesnt paint itself. It is implied by the very word's standard definition and interpretation, that it was *painted* by someone, hence a painting requires a painter.
This can also be labeled a tautology, where the theist has simply asserted that there is a creator (painter) without even attempting to demonstrate anything.
As soon as someone presents this entirely disingenuous and manipulative "argument", which is actually an empty assertion that is not rationally justified, you should immediately ask them to prove it.
So, my response to this foolish statement is this:
So you think there is a creator, you think the entire universe was created by a thinking being, a "painter" if you will.
Go ahead and prove it, I'll wait.
If they try to go back to the same logical fallacy, you simply point out that either they dont understand the obvious error they're making, or they are just dishonest, in which case you have to give up, because they dont care about an honest discussion.
Morpheas Hey man, I appreciate you engaging in discussion with me, but you seem to have made some assumptions and missed the point of what I was saying.
My point is that this world matters on its own, for what it is. From my perspective, this world is important to me because it is all there is. The "painter" could have been the Big Bang for all I cared, but it will never be more important than us and our world. The problem I chose to focus on was with the "painting,” and it’s reduction in this analogy to being inferior to or incomplete without the “painter.”
My conversation with my friend was a clash of philosophical perspectives, not an argument on literal truths or unfalsifiable assertions. I take this kind of approach most of the time when speaking to other people about religion because our philosophies are what drive our actions, and I see it as far more dangerous to live with rigid ideas of "good" and "evil" and “superiority” than it is to believe in an invisible unknowable being.
Taking this analogy further, what if the painter is dead and you thought he was just painting a much better picure. In your wonder of the size and scope of his next painting, the current one you have dies, and you are left with nothing.
@Daian Moi " I replied to him: "You are so focused on the painter, you are missing out on the painting." " - A better reply - possibly the best - would have been: "The world is NOT a painting." ...
And on a more lighthearted tone, you could have remarked how funny the analogy comes out to be, considering the greatest paintings known today are the work of painters dead and gone... ;-)
I was born into a jw family. Hated the smiling all the damn time till my cheek bones hurt. The logical reasoning behind things didn't make sense to me. I was told when you reach 18 I could stop. Got baptized at 16. Got depressed at 18 I left them I said I would come back one day out of politenes. I would never. At 21 I moved out of family home to finally think for myself, love myself and speak for myself.
Amazing! I hope you're doing well nowadays.
How are you doing?
The moment the teacher-student analogy came up, I was reminded of a long time ago; I think my freshman year in high school, when a teacher asked me about the strange way I was doing longform multiplication. The teacher was very open-minded and indeed asked me to explain it to the class. It was at that point I was able to explain "lattice multiplication" to everyone, which I've always found to be a much simpler way of doing complex multiplication on paper than the traditional way. And the teacher was actually rather impressed by my unorthodox (and no less accurate) approach. He didn't find me rebellious; he was genuinely curious, and I was gratified to talk about something I considered unique and fun.
I'm a music teacher. Today I had a guitar student who fingered a D major chord in a weird way: instead of the first finger on the G string and second finger on the E string, they were reversed. I said "that's an interesting way of playing that chord. Most people do it this way" and demonstrated "because it's a little more in line with how your fingers and wrist naturally like to bend," but I then added "now, the interesting thing is that the D minor chord is fingered more like how you were just doing it, so if you find yourself going straight from a D to a Dm on a regular basis, then there's a good reason to finger it that way."
I didn't say the standard fingering was "better." I explained why it's most common to do it that way, and also provided an example of when it would make sense to do it differently.
Because I'm not interested in being infallible. I'm interested in helping people become better musicians.
Jehovah should be taking cues from me.
This reminds me of when I was doing some homework one-on-one with my math teacher in high school! We were doing algebra and trigonometry. We were learning synthetic division, and one of the problems on the homework, I didn't do in the traditional way. I did the synthetic division backwards! He was surprised, as I also got the answer right! He was an amazing teacher. There's always more than 1 way to solve a problem, and he showed us that there's no "correct" way to tackle it, just different methods that work depending on the person! :)
@@jarvis5552 i think it's more depending on context and a person's ability to understand a methodology.
How does "lattice multiplication" work?
@@ponyofthestars4247 It's a little hard to explain without visual aids. I'd hate to say it, but it's probably best to look for it on Google. (Once you look at it, you'll see why it's a little hard to explain in just text.)
Basically, you make a grid of diagonally split squares. On top you have one number and on the left you have the other number. You multiply each digit of the number individually and place the result in the corresponding box on the grid (10s on one side, 1s on the other). Once the grid is filled, add all of the diagonal lines and you'll get the result.
I did my best. But again, visual aids are best here. ^^;
I've only been visited by JWs once in my life. I was ten or eleven, and my mum was asleep. They told me about how after the rapture, the lion would lie down with the lamb, and everyone would live forever. I said lions eat lambs. They left.
what i love about you guys is your lack of arrogance.....most born againers are aggressive and arrogant....(snd I speak of one myself).....it is so refreshing to hear your calm civility!!! Thank you !!
I meant to say "I speak as a born again christian myself"
I despise the arrogance of my fellow believers
I am deeply ashamed of the way my fellow believers put down non- Christians....often talking down to them .....
I guess they think lions would be munching on carrots and lettuce after the rapture, which would be strange given the fact that they, and every other species of cat, are obligate carnivores.
Jake Prytherch so funny! Haha
My brother used to be bothered by JWs.
One day he answered the door with his 12 foot python draped over his shoulders.
He hasn't been bothered since.
@Jubei Yang ???
@Susan Kerr but why the daiper?
jarrod nash hey man let’s not kink shame here
I did the same thing with my 6-incher and all I got was a fine for public indecency...
@@peenywallie But isn't it your property? It's your business to be naked in your house. They are the ones that disturbed you by knocking!
My favorite approach when they ask "would you like to hear about Jesus?", I answer with "yes, but not from you", this always makes them completely speechless and confused.
Savage
Awww Penny was your study conductor, a young girl I presume, and the others were her veteran back up. I'm Soo glad this happened and this girl got to experience critical thinking. Thank you
Penny was so sweet-natured. I suspected what she might've found most jarring was the rudeness from her colleagues. She looked shocked, ashamed and apologetic on their behalf a good few times - especially at a couple of explosive outbursts from Marcia I didn't include in this video. Penny clearly tried to distance herself from that behaviour - I can only hope something grew in that distance.
@@TheraminTrees thank you for all your work man
@@TheraminTrees you were doing god's work, as it were.
@@weatheranddarknessIronically.
Every time i hear the name Watchtower, i think of Saurons Eye in Mordor. Funny and depressingly accurate at the same time.
Hahahaha!! Indeed!! I mean, that's exactly it.
Jimi Hendrix
Oh yeah, its a very controlling religion, despotic and authoritarian as fuck.
JW's turn in even their own family members to the elders, and facing a council hearing, those people can actually be disfellowshipped by the church and their own families will then shun them.
The saddest thing of all is, JW followers dont actually realize how much they are oppressed and how much they have to exhibit that persona of a faithful and devout JW, to the point where they have essentially lost themselves and are unable to express their own thoughts and views and think critically and logically.
This is why it is actually one of the most oppressive and horrible religions there are. It is a highly authoritarian and oppressive cult, wrapped up in a guise of happiness, kindness and love.
Once you are in the religion and figure out how it works, the truth is beyond shocking.
I think of a concentration camp.
@@Spookspek Come on dude. I like edgy jokes like everyone else, but this is a bit far. Dont get me wrong, i totally support your right to make them, but everything has its place. Now look at what you have done, you made me ramble about a joke. You should be ashamed of yourself ;P
PS: Dont shun me for my bad english, i am from Austria and usually speak german^^
Most teachers in public schools i have known considered themselves unquestionably correct
majda vlk and if you challenge them you had better have a ton of ammo or they will grind you to dust even if there’s no need.
Miles Noctis I have had some extremely shitty teachers. But I’ve also had some amazing teachers. I had one who has become a professional mentor even go so far as to ask me how my class work was coming and help me take my project to the next level.
My spouse is a teacher. He considers himself unquestionably correct as long as the "alternative ideas" that his students come up with are complete and utter bullshit. As soon as there even is a tiny bit of a point he is happy to give them some space or the whole stage.
But teachers are under a lot of time pressure, schedules are tight and children lack the judgement of somebody who spent several years in university, studying the field, as to whether their ideas are viable. So they often apply a no-nonsense approach, seeming dismissive, because they have to carry on with the lessons, because time is always too short.
Most teachers are correct in the setting of a classroom because they have a book with all the answers in their desk.
I need not say more.
Going door to door, I always felt guilty because as I stood there holding my books, the other person would be talking away and would add, “We’re not here to convert anybody” or some variation of that but its not true! That’s exactly what we were there to do. I tried to talk to my sister about this when she invited me to go with her recently but shes so deeply indoctrinated, she couldn’t even understand what was wrong with that because “we’re doing it to save peoples lives”. Im slowly breaking myself away but its hard because you feel like everyone is watching you all the time. I dont have a jw roommate anymore though, which has been such a relief because I dont feel like my every move is being tracked by someone now.
I would advise you to watch some of Genetically Modified Skeptic, he is an ex-Christian that discusses religious topics, however he does so in a very calm and caring manner. He isn't insulting or condescending, and there are also communities for people who are questioning faith. His series on how he came to leave his overbearing church is very good
I hope you managed to get away without much problems, i know the jw's will ostracize detractors and cut off family in some cases, hopefully your folks were not as extreme
You’re okay, be kind to yourself. I found being calm and knowing you don’t have to defend your thoughts is a good start to your path of healing. You’ve got this!
When I was a kid my parents would take me door to door. The JWs have this duality to them that rubbed off on me and that I have to fight to this day. They will smile and be polite at your door, even raise a semblance of interest in argumentation, but if they get rejected, even if politely so, what is said in the car about that person usually amounts to "well, they chose death, they can't be honest in their pursuit of the truth if they rejected our preaching." It's a sort of very on/off mentality, where somebody can become literally dead to you at the drop of a hat, simply because of a diverging opinion.
"How dare you not believe in this! Look what you made god do to you!" - Them probably
I think it's telling that they always are in pairs and never talk to you alone. I think it's a way of controlling any doubting members, so if they give an honest, off script, or opposing opinion to the counsel the other JW can then either shut them down or snitch to the counsel. Thus keeping people on script for fear of shunning for their true feelings.
And fucking safety too.... like not ending up in the fridge of some hungry canibal!
2 young JW girls knocked on my door. I was seriously p*ssed off their church would put them in such a vulnerable position and gave them a mum-talk about staying safe. It scared the heck out of me they were going into secluded stairs asking to be invited into random flats. I was glad to see them on the high street next time, I hope they stick to populated areas!
Well, maybe JW's, but at least I remember that Mormon missionaries could be alone with another man, never with women. And that opens another different can of worms.
JW are trained to snitch on others so there is always one person with a high status that is being blackmailed by losing her high status to make sure the high status JW controls the low status JW’s
You probably right, but I wouldn't disregard safety either. Idk how it is elsewhere, but in my area more than half of JWs are women. And even if your area is safe, it might not mean that every area they go to is safe.
Especially considering that as far as they're concerned, they're going into the house of sinners.
It's a legit and good excuse to have them watch eachother :)
A big part of my deconversion from the JWs was when i met an interesting man at the door who wanted to talk because he had a genuine curiousity about philosophy and spirituality. As i stood there chatting with him, i realised that i had so much in common with him and absolutely nothing in common with the fellow JW at my side. What was i doing... trying to convert this gem... it was my job to destroy this thing of beauty? No, i wouldn't.
i was on the wrong side of this fight. And that was the last time i ever went door knocking.
roidroid why is it that the end of your message makes me think of Ash’ lines in Alien about the xenomorph, and similar scenes in sci fi ^^ (I guess it’s because logical thinking is as deadly to religious thought as a xenomorph is to humans)
lol gay
roidroid I had a teacher who used to be a JW. Her first wake up moment was while door knocking the person she was with was over the top trying to get into people’s homes to talk. The final straw came when the people she was supposed to “save” had questions and the elders would “get back to her” instead of admitting they didn’t know.
I hate the idea of people door knocking because of who has been doing it. But maybe someone "preaching" critical thinking should go door knocking and try to encourage people to join _their_ group. Hint: don't say that a person needs to leave their religion. I think if they start to see the truth and have a place to go, they'll just go. Just watch your back. Have friends around you for support. If such efforts are successful, I would be surprised if there wasn't backlash from powerful populous organizations like Mormons or JWs. Heed the comments at the end of this video, but don't be surprised to see that these nice happy loving people have a dark side. I've seen it. It is ugly.
@Benjamin Figgins This is extremely bizzare, because so much Christian Philosophy comes from Greco-Roman Philosophy. You know the strong emphasis on Chastity and Christianity's disdain of sex as an act of pleasure over reproduction? That comes 100% from the Stoics.
"what if the teacher started shooting students" ok I can see how that's a logical continuation of the analogy but goddamn it now I can't concentrate, that was horribly funny
Danganronpa moment
American teacher
@@Generic_Gaming_Channel lol ik what you meant
walks in, glares at students
do the math wrong and the flock gets the glock!!!
They probably replaced Marcia with Sheila because you were starting to get through to both Penny and Marcia. Sheila sounds like she was a more senior member of the organisation, and took a more hard-line approach to trying to control the topics of the conversations and eventually calling them off when she didn't get the required result. Marcia and Penny probably did have honest intentions when they started discussing religion, but Sheila almost certainly did not.
As an ex-JW, I can concur that everything described in this video is 100% accurate. Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to think illogically. They practice confirmation bias, and cognitive dissonance the way a guitarist would practice strumming on his or her guitar. This is why they meet so many times a week, and are encouraged to constantly read and absorb the Watchtower publications. They don't actually read the bible, or discuss it in any honest way, they read the Watchtower literature with cherry-picked bible verses and they must accept the Watchtower's interpretation of those verses no matter how illogical it seems (ex: they "overlapping generations" nonsense).
Richard D that’s a shame. I recently started going to a new church. While it’s A Christian church they openly invite anyone regardless of religious belief. When the pastor preaches he clearly states where to find the information he used to form his opinion. If your not willing to question your beliefs how do you know if they are yours or are you brainwashed?
@Carey Herbert I was wondering the same thing
Your congregation was drastically different from mine. We studied the Bible from front to back and then over again when we got to the Revelation. Discussing it and thinking about how it applies to modern life. They gave me the tools to think critically about peoples’ messages and eventually step away from the religion. Kind of ironic, but, kinda not? Oh god what if they double bluffed me!?!? Lol
But no, seriously, your experience sounds way different than mine. That’s a shame, I’m sorry.
@@levi1929 Aggregating all religious people, from the point of view of a non-religious, can lead to misplaced anger as it recalls bad memories or violent interactions.
That seems to be the case with that letterman fellow, as he seems angry with you for no good reason. Thank you for providing a calm and decent response.
TRIPLE BLUFF! God is Almighty and you're all going to hell!!
@mary reed Yes Jehovahs Witless are amongst the dumbest of the religious nutters.
As an Ex-JW I found your reasoning well thought out. It was someone like you, someone who challenged my thinking, that helped get me out of the mindset. I've been out for almost 20 years. Who knows but maybe you helped that lady Penny see things differently and she may leave that group as well?
That's very true. Whenever I hear discussions like this... I often wonder if the the witnesses change their mind down the road. Some do.👍
@@CassD33:
"That's very true. Whenever I hear discussions like this... I often wonder if the the witnesses change their mind down the road. Some do.👍"
==Most likely no, she won't change her mind.
Also, she is a woman and statistics show that women are more religious than men. In the atheist population, there are more men than women.
Also, some christians are conditioned to think that human logic and god logic are two different things and that human logic is faulty. They are asked to have blind faith even if the Bible doesn't make sense. Sometimes they quote the line "Your ways are not my ways".
Also, if they leave christianity, what will happen to their souls? Pascal's wager? Perhaps they are souless animals?
Believe in Jesus
Luke 14:26-“If you want to be my disciple, you must, by comparison, hate everyone else-your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:33-In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
@@christopherf4929 I don't need to be a self loathing religious idiot, no thank you
@@christopherf4929 and yet an ideology like that removes many of the values of these religions such as the many family and relationship values making it self contradicting.
"Well, what about penguins."
"Oh, dang, nab it. I forgot penguins existed. Sorry I will need to consult the archives for that one."
I truly hope Penny managed to escape.
Penny was a sweet person. Yes, I hope she made it out.
I don't debate what is in the Bible. That is like arguing over what red kryptonite does to Superman based on the comic books. Instead I told the JW's that their normal task of converting someone from a different religion to their religion was different with me. I asked them why I should believe anything the Bible has to say in the first place. They said it is the word of God. I asked why I should believe in God and they said the Bible says so. After going around and around a few times I tried to explain to them that they were using circular reasoning. It was amazing how long it took before they realized that they didn't have any good reason to believe in God or the Bible. They said they would come back later with someone smarter than they were. That never happened.
I checked out the link. That was awesome. Yes, arguing about christianity can be just like that.
Hey, don't act like the effects of red kryptonite aren't important, or highly complex! I've seen jihads started over that shit...
bibviz.com
Maverick Hargrave hell doesn’t exist in the JW religion.
@Maverick Hargrave when confronted with inconsistencies, they don't go "aha," like a person under a delusion, they get angry with you, dig in their heels and double down.
"what about penguins?"
Or almost every native bird in New Zealand, an evolutionary adaptation to an environment with few predators of birds, or the emu, ostrich, rhea or cassowary whose size prevents aerodynamic efficiency .
Yeah, I thought he was going to say ostrich. I don't think they swim either. But the swimming thing actually made for a better parable. Rather than just stopping that argument dead, it allowed an even more crushing come-back to their weak come-back.
@Michael Kevin Millet it's very difficult if not impossible to disprove some things. When asserting a claim, the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim- not on others to disprove it. I could say invisible elven spirits are frolicking in my house right now and you'd have no way to prove me wrong, but since my claim has no evidence to back it up, you have no reason to believe it.
NZ has about 200 bird species and about a dozen are flightless (kiwi, kakapo, weka, takahe, several wrens and adzebills, several penguins.)
@Michael Kevin Millet Not necessarily, you're assuming that "God" instantly means the one you believe in, but there could be any number of indifferent Gods that have no effect on our lives.
@Michael Kevin Millet Ah, so you have consolidated your superstition. Good to know.
I've been raised a JW my entire life. It's only been through Extensive Research, Critical Thinking, Videos like these, and countless other "inappropriate" and downright "evil" or "satanic" ways of thinking and researching that I've been able to wake up. I'm currently being kicked out of my home and ill be moving in with my "worldly" best friend (who they only recently found out about). This "religion's" rabbit hole runs so very deep. I'm one of the lucky ones.
Good for you 👍
@sogbarak...glad you got out and hope you are doing well.
❤️❤️❤️
It's extraordinarily rare that I have the privilege of hearing someone speak with such exquisitely beautiful syntax.
yup they sure do words good
@@rhaeven
The duality of Man. Presented in two comments
Th worst thing about JWs is way they treat each other if they dare to challenge, dissent or question the party line.
That largely depends on the particular community, speaking as someone who grew up in a JW household that moved around a lot.
ericv00 agreed. You will not always get the boot. You will never get acceptance though. The best you can hope for is being pitied and exhorted to pray for more faith.
I'm impressed and beguiled by all the time you guys spent with them. I once talked to a couple of JW's for about 20 minutes, asking them what I considered to be rather 'light' questions that contained minor debate points. I didn't want any big debate, and I suspect they didn't either, I was just curious as to how they would respond; if they were sharp enough to at least clear a handful of 'light' questions. I honestly expected great responses from them and I was eager to hear them (planning to end the encounter afterwards), but was greatly disappointed to find another phenomenon entirely.
Instead of processing anything I said, they seemed to choose a 'closest fit' canned response and gave that as an answer. It was like if Stephen Hawking only had a panel of phrases, couldn't write any new ones, and was required to immediately choose one for a response if asked a question. I tried to make eye contact and really get some kind of independent thought out of them, even if it was entirely pro-JW, but no such thing occurred. They had this look in their eye, the kind I'm sure I get if I have to perform some menial repetitive task for hours on end.
I guess I shouldn't be too hard on them, they were probably just kids forced to do this thing, going through the motions. It's still pretty depressing though.
I've often conceptualised this JW encounter as a kind of Bizarro Turing test for precisely the reasons you highlight. The Turing test is about a machine's ability to display intelligence indistinguishable from humans - but here I was sat opposite actual humans who were, as our discussions continued, becoming increasingly indistinguishable from machines.
I think sometimes attention can be the issue. The other person can be as intelligent as you, but maybe when talking to you they don't concentrate on what you say (as they don't consider it important), but on something else, like your emotional state, body language etc. I think it's reasonable that people don't consider theoretical questions like "is there god/afterlife" important enough to find the real answer, while they consider it very important to find out what they can do to increase their status in their community. (maybe by converting you, or showing faith)
JWs are told to not give their own opinions when speaking to persons in their ministry. They're told to "speak in unity" which means always conveying their organization's positions on matters. To give your own opinion is seen by them as prideful and as using "independent thinking".
Their method of instruction consists of reading Watchtower literature which provides both the questions and the answers to the questions. In their teaching literature, paragraphs are numbered and at the bottom of the page are questions numbered to correspond to the paragraphs that give the answer. Their "discussions" at their meetings are quite literally like reading comprehension exercises. A male JW reads one or two paragraphs from the publication. Then the main speaker asks the questions numbered to correspond to the paragraph(s). Then JWs in the audience raise their hands to get the wonderful privilege of either quoting verbatim the lines in the paragraph that answer the question; or paraphrasing them. Some of the more articulate ones in the audience will answer in their own words or inject some personal experience or illustration. But it always has to be in agreement with what the literature says. If you comment in disagreement with what the literature says - no matter how respectfully - you will be spoken to by the elders after the meeting. Openly disagreeing with what their organization teaches is a cardinal sin to them.
This kind of intellectually stifling environment creates in JWs a mindset where they are unwilling to share their own opinions for fear that they may be exhibiting pride or independent thinking or that they may say something that is contrary or at odds with what the organization teaches. To play it safe they always share what the organization says. So when you ask a question that is not directly addressed by their organization they will give you an answer from their mental script of teachings and responses provided by the organization. They will look for the one that is closest in nature to the question you're asking, even if it actually does not answer the question. Lately, many of them will just tell you to visit jw.org to get the answer. But the answer actually isn't there.
Caribbean Man Is this your personal experience? Is it an article you’re referencing?
As someone who grew up with them i can say a few things;
They spend inordinate amounts of time on public speaking and persuasion, but not critical thinking.
Also usually if encountering people that argue as your talking about the instruction is to cut it off as its "apparent in these cases that their hearts are not open to God"
But then this and their methods in general seem to be changing as rapidly as facebook trends
O man, the irony of that lady saying that quote
I had a JW show up at my door one day, had a very long conversation that eventually ended with him saying, "Hey, thank you so much. You're a really smart person, and I'll have to think about what you said." I don't know what became of him, but I can only hope he went on to live his life a different way.
Na that was sarcasm my friend 💀
@@KILLRXNOEVIRUS It's a lot easier to detect sarcasm in face to face interactions than you might think. Hard to learn that when you spend your time trundling around on the internet, attempting to start funny arguments. ☠️
@@Sparroeuw But it's hard to not start funny arguments when ur depressed and bored 🗿
@@Sparroeuw Imma go tos ELP goodnight
@@Sparroeuw wait hold up did you just gaslight me into thinking I was attempting to start funny arguments 👁️👄👁️
I grew up JW and this was spot on. The big thing to understand is that they simply are not allowed to yield. Any doubt they feel is a sign of spiritual weakness and suggests that Satan may be involved in the interaction with you. It is considered extremely dangerous to accept ideas presented by those outside the organization. If you made them doubt what they were saying, then they would have been made very uncomfortable and fearful of what your words represented. It was likely suggested to them by the elders that they discontinue the conversations with you for their own safety.
+Josh Pedrick That tallies with our conversations with the JWs. Had an abiding image in my head of a wall between us, and them throwing plastic flowers over the top - ie insincere encouragements - to try and keep us engaged talking to a wall.
+TheraminTrees I hope you managed to get the doubt to stick, though. Doubt eventually saved me from that madness, so there is hope for some JWs!
My mother attempted to force the JW religion on me(as she did to my sisters, and her parents to her. That usual bs.)
I've been kicked out of so many different "meetings"(basically churches) for just asking too many questions. As many I could think of. I had a small journal of these questions, and every time she would force me to dress up for church, I'd bring my "get out free" book.
She gave up on forcing me to go when I was 15.
I was raised as one myself, most of my family still hold that belief.
The reason they kick you out is because they only want stupid easily manipulated people. Not people who will eventually bring logical thinking & start to "bring doubt" to everyone else.
Smart strat! :0
I remember a story a friend told me that happened when he was younger
He was in his driveway working on his car, when a Jehovah's Witness walked up, started his spiel, then noticed the car and completely forgot why he was there and they had a conversation about cars
He came back a few times for the next couple of weeks, and they only ever discussed cars, until one day he showed up with another JW, who made sure to steer the conversation to stick with their script, and they both left after a few minutes when it became clear my friend wasn't going to be converted
The first guy never came back after that
You'd think a car guy would know if something was convertible har har
Thank you for your perspective, it was very interesting to hear from somebody who only studied with them and did so with logic and you didn't fall into their trap. I never had the opportunity to question things until I grew up, born in and 3rd generation in the organization I never had that option. I was baptized at just 10 years old and didn't leave until their rules on blood killed my dad. They had changed the rules on that, only a little bit, once again. They told my dad he could, at that point in 2007, accept bone marrow as they had gotten "new light" that made doing so a "conscience matter" but reminded him that even if it didn't bother his own, he needed to remember that he could "stumble his brother" (meaning another member in the organization) and then would be held accountable before jehovah. He would be held "bloodguilty". They then reminded him that the platelets he desperately needed were still absolutely not to be accepted under any circumstances. My dad then bled from everywhere over two long days it was horrific. He was fighting cancer during this time as well so yes that could have taken him in the end but we will never know since their rules killed him first. I attended his funeral at the kingdom hall and then left the religion. I was done. I told my mom there's no difference in accepting bone marrow and accepting any other part of blood and that it was disgusting that they would make such wishy washy rules and continually change them. Prior to the 2000's it was always black and white, aside from some fractions used in medicines for things like hemophilia (later realized the rules on this were different at one point and even they couldn't have their medicine because it had a blood fraction in it), I told her that if it is all wrong is should all be a no. If they are going to ok parts then they should just ok all of it. Bone marrow is just immature blood cells and if it produced cells that were responsible for any other organ/ part of the body regenerating or growing then i might buy the reasoning, not really but yea, but since bone marrow only made blood cells then this made zero since logically. It is ok to take immature blood cells but not fully developed ones? I didn't want anything to do with it anymore.
What a horrific experience. The kind of experience that occurs all too often in groups that impose nonsensical laws they don't have to explain. This high-control organisation is 'bloodguilty' on an immeasurable scale. I'm glad you made it out.
This video really resonates with me, as conversations with believers were an important part of my conversion experience. Hoping to test my thinking while spurring others toward their own critical thinking, I asked many of my friends, "Why do you believe in God?" The "best" (and most surprisingly honest) answer I got was from a close friend who said that belief in the heavenly afterlife was her only defense against a crippling fear of death. The last answer I got was from my family's church's head pastor, who said that if I didn't see the reasons to believe in God, then I shouldn't; that settled it for me.
I'll end my comment with my favorite quote from this video, which happens to be its final sentences.
"Dehumanizing can be infectious. When members of supremacist ideologies dehumanize us, it's a natural reflex to dehumanize them right back - to forget their humanity, as they've forgotten ours. But that leaves us all brutalized, incurious, and with an impoverished understanding of the complexity of human experience. For me, it's when we allow ourselves to succumb to those kinds of unthinking reflexes that we really do become fools."
+airandfingers Yep, honest wasn't it - refreshingly devoid of rationalisation. And if she figures out that a belief in a heavenly afterlife isn't the only defence against a crippling fear of death, maybe she'll be able to ditch the whole thing.
I remember one woman said, "I have to hedge my bets. I'm choosing the best possible horse."
I thought it odd until Bill Maher in Religulous echoed a similar sentiment, "You can't win if you don't play!"
Then again South Park The Movie had a bunch of people in hell. When asked the right religion, the demon responded "Mormonism was the correct answer." Everyone went "Awwww!!!" like you would if you'd lost a raffle.
What strikes me as funny is that there's no game, no heaven, no hell. Quite frankly, as far as we're concerned, there's no death either … certain none that we'll experience.
@@TheraminTrees hey man, i know this video is 6 years old but i am having this issue, a crippling fear of death. it is ruining my life and its killing me inside even more watching me lie in bed and let it all pass me by but i dont know what to do. anything would help
@@rrai1999 He has two videos about that topic. Maybe it might help you find some peace of mind.
@@vkyal5810 Which ones are those, specifically?
I used to be visited regularly by the JWs. I had several long discussions, similar to yours. I was always friendly, never difficult, certainly never rude. I just asked questions and pointed out a few anomalies I had noticed in what they said. Oh, they frequently tried to give me books and pamphlets to read. I tried to offer them something to read once. Absolute flat refusal, they seemed quite offended by the very suggestion that I should offer them anything to read, that was clearly a severe no-no. I also had the 'I'll have to get back to you' response. They never did. I am now blacklisted. They still visit my street regularly and knock on all my neighbour's doors, but always miss mine out...
I imagine that's a blacklist many folks would love to be on ;8)
@@TheraminTrees You can also ask to be put on their black list (Do not call list). That works for a couple years or so and then they will call again just to check if you've moved.
@@TheraminTrees I hope I'm not on it as it's always entertaining.
As someone who works in sales and both makes and takes sales calls, it's incredibly obvious to me when a pitch has no substance. Every religious conversion attempt I've ever heard has been an underhanded sales technique, either deliberately or through sheer ignorance at their own tactics.
8:39 "unquestionably correct" -this is why I think that you must be authoritarian to be religious. Because only an authoritarian would be ok with this.
Only the Sith deals in absolutes
Americans succeed at contradicting themselves in this though.
So then, have you gone through the evidence for Jesus’s existence?
@@evannibbe9375 , yes, it's crap
@@evannibbe9375 as Theramin so eloquently put it, Jesus' sacrifice is "sadomasochism"
I remember avoiding telling people we are trying to convert them. And that we were only encouraging bible discussion. To get them to admit they were only interested in converting you would be quite satisfying. I wonder if they took note that they lied.
enigma1863 if you came out and said you wanted to convert me we could have saved time but having a full on debate instead of a weeks long tea time.
The JW guy in my area wanted to become friends with my nephew. I got into some light chats about religion with the JW guy. I finally told him I was an apostate and he never came back. He stopped trying to woo my nephew as well.
Kadui Saui yes. It is for bidden to speak to apostates. Unless, that is, of course, you are an elder. I am sure they avoided you as if you were diseased.
5:50 I feel compelled to answer that problem.
The answer is 17 / sin(62°). (I assume it's in degrees if it isn't just make sure to get your units correct by multiplying 62 by the ratio of radians in a full circle to the unit of angle used in a full circle and then take the sine of that in radians).
The answer is approximately 77/4
I think he's in gradians - send help
Thankyou!!!!
I enjoy how objective you stay in your videos. Allot of other atheist channels get pretty mad, which is understandable but less condusive to education. Keep it up 😁
The word allot means to allocate, I assume what you meant to say was "a lot" as in a large sum
@@buubaku miserable pedant.
@@Therebesquare my intention wasn't to belittle him
Thank you for making this and announcing listing it.
The hardest part of leaving the Jehovah's Witness faith for me wasn't becoming aware itself, but the realization that most of the people whom subscribed to the faith were so very deluded and unwilling to even hear out contrary reasoning, no matter how sound.
Horrible isn't it. The rope bridges by which we escape from these ideologies only seem built to take one.
Damn, well said.
You leave some perfectly lovely people behind sometimes, when you seek the truth. I think of them as the part of me that still clings to that dream of eternal life. I don't see them as much as foolish as I do weak, just as I was once. I reach out once in a while, but so often without real hope. The hardest part of being free is knowing that others are not. From the inside, you don't see the walls as a prison.
The One
I never thought of it as a decision, myself. It's more like a conclusion that you reach, when all the wrong answers have been put to rest. I really don't think anyone really "decides" to not believe in a god. It seems more like you never really did, and the only decision was to stop pretending that you do. For me, that is the way it felt.
TheraminTrees, why isn't this gem of a video listed? Can I share it on a public forum frequented by JWs?
I say this truthfully and without any intention of flattery. Your videos are, in my opinion, the best collection of videos on UA-cam dissecting the negative issues of religion. The video entitled "Bending Truth" is easily the best video on religious indoctrination on UA-cam. I honestly believe this.
The video is now "listed." It was uploaded 8 months ago so it is buried in your subscriptions. It can be shared freely. I consider the videos by TheraminTrees and QualiaSoup to be national treasures. Everyone should watch them.
Caribbean Man
Like most gems, they are rare and hard to find. The UA-cam shrubbery grows thick around TheraminTrees...for some reason.
Your nick feels familiar, were you a Theist?
Carribbean man
I totally agree!
This dissection is necessary to discern the truth. What is the truth anyway?
My truth may not be your truth. Far truth is a lie. So is somebody else's truth.
When is a lie your truth and your truth a lie? The answer lies in CONTEXT. And the truth is the content😁
As the saying the truth in the pudding is in the tasting.
Jesus said about the same thing with fruits. (He is kind of a fruity person anyway😂)
I highly recommend AnticitzenX.
I’m proud of teenage me for refusing to get baptised into this cult. I was shuffled into door knocking once as a kid, I stood next to whoever was doing the knocking and felt so awkward and so sorry for the people we were disturbing and irritating. From memory I hung back at the end of the road for the next one and walked back home as they knocked.
This cult took me out of school where I lost contact with all my friends, and on refusing to attend meetings later in my teens I lost my social circle for a second time.
It is not an environment for honest people that question things. I feel sorry for other children raised in it, and am convinced any adult still in it is entirely unthinking and lack any honesty with themselves, and lack integrity in general.
They do think and often act like children.
Hope you are doing well now. Good luck with your future.
So true of JWs. I was one for 31 years. Didn't realise that the lingo threw people who weren't JWs. Eg 'this system'. But if you tell JWs they are 'unwordly', they will confirm it and swell up with pride.
Heaven's to Betsy, the JWs hadn't been to my door for years - during which time I'd stopped going to any church and become a very firm non-believer. Then, surprise, surprise one turned up, with a non-speaking companion who I think was learning the ropes and discovered I was a historian. "I'll be back!" he promised. "And we'll talk history together!" Having seen this I shall now make sure I'm out when he calls. Two minutes on the doorstep is one thing, but weeks and weeks of visits, whilst he uses history in some obscure way to make me into a follower of the Watchtower! NO!
don't worry. now that they know that you are educated, they are unlikely to return.
As an ex-jw, this is a truly moving video. My favorite. Thank you, TheraminTrees.
My dad came in my room and asked me to come watch the JW broadcast while I was watching this video
edit: I just finished the video and I feel like I'm about to have a panic attack lol
are you okay now?
Larfeehee Larfeehee Yeah, thanks for asking my guy
kids cuisine Just out of Curiosity are you JW and if so what did you think about the video?
I hope you are doing well. It can be tough, feeling alone. With it forced upon you.
I hope your parents love you enough, to accept you, as you are.
Are you still in this cult ?
i'm really fucking glad my mom decided to wake up after her divorce and see through the bullshit
i appreciate her for valuing her children being able to recieve blood transfusions, organ transplants, and so much more regular things in life
lots of needless suffering and deaths
@5:41 "In response, Penny launched, clock-work, into a rehearsed analogy about a teacher and a rebellious student..."
But wait just a minute, Penny. Didn't god plant the "Tree of Knowledge" in the Garden of Eden, then *forbid the humans to eat from it* ? That's not what a teacher does, is it? A teacher helps his students to *partake of* knowledge. So calling god a 'teacher' isn't accurate at all.
HAH.
Hadn't considered one could break it down even further.
You thought this one quite outside the box.
Hats down.
@@julesguermonprez1392 Thanks!
God don´t want us to be smart because he actually want his personal pets to be dumb and cutesy.
He simply put that tree there to abide to this one rule about personal freedom.
The student would be the devil in that analogy, not the humans
As an ex-JW I have to say that this is probably my favorite YT video. Well done again TT.
you programming? now?
This is literally the same experience I had with them. Same questions, same answers. It was hilarious, but I also feel bad because one of the witnesses was young, probably younger than me, and it was clear how they were throwing another one into the pit.
The best anyone can do is give the fairest representation of their alternatives. Choosing to leave a cult starts with being able to see what could be better
as an ex-witness, this rings uncomfortably true. hell, it got worse than this spometimes. some witnesses, like my father did to me, take their young children and force them to be part of these visits.
Most interesting. I have to say, I do wonder why people stick to their religion in the face of all reason; it's something I think about a fair bit. When I was young, apart from going to 'Crusaders' I was obsessed by the Sex Pistols. In my eyes they were the greatest band ever and literally NO other band could compare. I had a friend who loved the Beatles and tried to explain to me why they were better. I was having none of it, and would refuse to listen to any other type of music than punk, mocking and ridiculing any of his attempts to do so. Of course, as I got older I realised that to restrict myself from liking, or rather admitting to others that I actually did like other music, I was hurting only one person: me. I made a conscious decision to never again judge a band or song based on the perceived image, and now I listen and love almost all types of music from classical, to jazz, to Country to Metal, Indie, Pop rap, you name it. It has made me a richer and happier person, no question.
Of course, explaining WHY I stuck so blindly, and for so long, to only liking the Sex Pistols is harder to explain. If I'm honest with myself, I think it was not just because I did genuinely love them (I did), but because I wanted people to identify me with punk and to the Sex Pistols; to see me as adventurous perhaps, a little wild; grown-up even. I wanted people to know I was part of 'that team', when most of my peers were listening to Boney M and Abba.
In the same way I widened my musical taste, I also considered my religion. I loved the Crusaders (which was a Christian young persons club), and on Summer Camp on the isle of Wight I had even been re-baptised; but when I thought about WHY I was Christian, I realised very quickly that it just didn't make any sense at all to me and I was mostly doing it to please the grown-ups. I liked them, and felt very close to some and it hurt me to think of telling them that to me the whole concept of Heaven and Hell was anathema. Being told my cat, Sandy, wouldn't be in Heaven to meet me probably set the ball rolling, and then when my grandmother died I became confused about how she would look in heaven. Would she look how I remembered her? Or would she be young? Every answer I was given disappointed me and made me more sceptical.
So, anyway, I quickly dropped the Christian act, and on Sundays instead of going to Crusaders I started going to Army Cadets. So why did I ever identify myself as a Christian? Well, partly to please adults that I liked was one reason, another one was the pinball machine they had. I can't honestly say that I ever felt comfortable admitting it to others though, I always felt a bit foolish saying it, which speaks volumes I think.
So perhaps Christians are so blindly obsessed with following Christianity because they want everyone to know 'I'm part of the JEEBUS TEAM'? I'm 'GOOD PEOPLE'. Or is it simply that the alternative is too scary for them to face - that when they die, that's it; that this little bag of meat and bones, all it's hopes, fears, loves, experiences and memories, when it's gone that's it. No! It cannot be! It can't all be for nothing! The deeds of Hyram J. Keggenhoffler must echo throughout eternity. They MUST.
"All my loved ones are waiting for me at the gates of heaven (even though Uncle Mick fucking hated Auntie Mary), Look! They are holding hands and laughing and smiling with the joy of Jeebus now".
Could it really be that simple? That the reason people refuse to entertain other possible explanations to the meaning of life is that they're scared of death? The most natural thing, there most necessary thing and about the only thing you can 100% guarantee is going to happen to you.
I see the same patterns and behaviours online by Christians, over and over; when presented with clear evidence, they flounder and produce weird justifications and bizarrely constructed semi-scientific/philosophic prose to befuddle, muddy and lie. They're absolutely obsessed with telling people about sin and how much they love God, and speak in that creepy way about Him and Love and The Message and He Who Gave Us It All Because He So Loved Us and Capitalised Each Word. Praise Him. And in the end, any discussion is futile because they won't accept any other reason BECAUSE GOD IS THE TRUTH (It's like republicans and global warming, although at least with them I can understand the motivations for trying to discredit, even though it is deeply odious and self-serving). They accuse 'non-believers' of being 'angry with God' and 'in rebellion against Him' and being 'blind' and 'not bothering to find out the evidence' (!) whilst practising the same things themselves.
Is there anything else we hold on to so vigorously with blind faith? I can't think of anything, other than the Sex Pistols being the best band EVER that is.
Nice
@@thescrimble i laughed way too hard at that
just reading the long thought-provoking comment and then curiously seeing what the reply would be and just
Nice
It’s funny I had a discussion with someone who liked to hang on the this appealing idea that when we die we meet all our deceased loved ones and become reunited with them she wasn’t particularly religious just liked the idea and felt it very compelling and to an extent it is to all of us who miss people we have loved but I asked her if she accepted evolution which she did then of course if we do meet our parents and grand parents this must be true for us all her grandparents parents and so on back and back until their parents are no longer even human and if you take it to it’s logical conclusion not even same species !
@@stevenaustin8274 .....................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Feel free to take some.
For me I started questioning when I was 7 and found out about coco the gorilla. That even though she could literally talk to you and obviously had feelings and emotions that she wasn't worthy of going to heaven because she was an animal. It seemed like a silly distinction and really bothered me for years though I didn't fully let go out of fear for decades after, that was the first moment remember thinking "wait a minute that doesn't add up"
Glad you made this public, I loved it. Easter Eggs like this one accessible by clicking somewhere on a video cannot be found when watching on mobile device, which is increasingly becoming where most people watch videos these days.
Good point.
Btw I believe some people keep annotations turned off be default, so those links are not visible and do not work. I do this because annotations are abused too often on youtube.
somekindofname123 Yep - I'm forever switching obtrusive annotations off.
+TheraminTrees Now I have an image of you binge watching on UA-cam :)
I would love to know what some of your favorite channels/UA-camrs are.
urgh i now whatt you mean, banners covering most of the window linking to other things by the poster before you can see if you like this video they have posted
This video summed up why I backed out of being a witness. I entered their establishment with an open mind and a willingness to accept God. I was new to it so I asked many questions. I'm smart, so the questions I asked weren't easy. As time went on I noticed more and more bad analogies that made me question more. At one point the preacher had told a story about why God wants us to be a witness or we'd go to hell. His reason was that parent's want their kids to do good not just out of the kindness of their hearts, but because they are thinking of them. It was a blatant lie, I've never met a parent who wouldn't say the exact opposite, that they want their kids to be good without fear of judgement if they don't.
I also noticed most of the people in the room didn't practice what they preach. They speak of being kind to others but the most prominent priest in there beat his wife and threatened his kids with a weapon. They speak of being open to all, but gave me the cold shoulder at every turn.
I asked questions and pointed out inconsistencies because I wanted to believe. Not only were they unable to answer my questions, they also labeled me an enemy for them. It was then that I realized that they were lost. They were afraid of me because I sought the truth they fear.
I believe God is real, and I even believe some of the witnesses ideals. But I want to know the truth, and if that makes me an enemy of the witnesses, then that makes the witnesses the enemy of the truth.
What
@@traplegend5065ikr 😂
@@traplegend5065that shit makes me feel a cold chicken that went stale.
Ace attorney fan! :0
With the teacher analogy, I had an awful maths teacher. I had to do things her way regardless if I found another way of doing it and still coming to the correct answer. Her way confused me and I couldn't grasp it, I found a different method to solve problems and she would fail me saying that's not the way I taught you. I said I still got the correct answer and she would say yes but by doing it the wrong way, you need to do it the way I teach you. I never understood that, why do I have to do things one way when I struggle to grasp it? What was wrong with my method if I still was getting the correct answer?
Heaps of teachers out there don't like to be challenged and will evict you from class for being rebellious or in my case "trouble."
In a perfect world, we would view George Orwell as an angelic visitor.
@3:17 forward, "Penny and Marcia came back with the response that 'If you look at penguins from under the water, they would appear to be flying over you'."
Wish I'd been there...
"Oh, really? Care to explain ostriches, emus, Southern cassowaries, Greater Rheas? THEY don't "fly" in water; they're land-bound."
Honestly, if he chose ostriches or some other land-only bird, this might've gone rather different. A penguin from below appears to be flying above you; but you can't really get below an ostrich. This might've straight-up ended their encounters, the witnesses not even being able to use contorted reasoning (what plausible scenario would an ostrich, clearly a bird, appear to be flying and not falling or drowning?), but instead simply faced with a brick wall.. which would mean they couldn't talk long enough for anything Theramin and Qualia said to genuinely settle into their minds.
Though I guess they *did* seem to ignore him in the end... presumably. And it's not like they wouldn't be faced with lots of brick walls anyway. Still, something to keep in mind.
JW responses: "Well, if a person were to lie on the ground, an ostrich running/jumping over the person would sure appear to be flying." "The Bible doesn't say how far each bird is capable of flying." "Just don't think about it so hard or literally."
The creativity of the human mind for rationalizing pre-existing beliefs can be rather surprising.
Don't forget us Kiwis, Takahe and Kakapo maaate.
@@Longtack55 Eyyy, NZ Represent! =D
thats easy to distort "Ostritches were wrongfully labeled as birds by modern society" something like that would be possible
I actually had a genuinely nice elderly couple whom were JWs, they were really really nice people. Whenever we had weekly discussions they actually listened and didn't criticize our viewpoint, they actually merely wanted to make us merely think. Though this was years ago and the precise details have faded as they do, I can say one thing, they weren't like most the other JWs. Actually genuine nice people, open for discussion, the discussions being more philosophical and less about reading out of the bible. It was great.
I got my JWs hooked on Dune, I didn't see them again after I got one of them to recite a prayer to Shai Hulud with a hardly a prompt.
Desert Power > Holy Power any day
Spicy.
I'm actually disturbed that you kept this as an easter egg for so long. It is thoughtful, useful, and valuable. And I would hope that any such piece in the future is put out there more openly.
I had an experience with Mormon missionaries very recently. I didn't remark on the scriptures so much as I went through the logic of certain beliefs. I talked about the need for real evidence, and the relative lack of value in wishful thinking. I talked about how religion compels a lack of action when action is needed. (To save lives or help in general) The problem of suffering was brought up as well. The two young women that had the conversation with me similarly made an effort to say they would seek answers from an elder before returning to me with the answers. I refused and opted instead to have them go through the logic themselves rather than being told by a fallible human what is true.
We talked for hours. I understand them quite well, and they were actually impressed that I came from a JW family. They were surprised that I was receptive to conversation, and it seemed to resonate with them when I told them that I understood why they seek people out. Of course they want to convert people. They think they have the truth, the most important knowledge that there is. It would be an act of evil to keep that to one's self.
After some time, the woman who was doing almost all of the talking came away quite thoughtful and curious. I doubt I have pulled her away from the religion, but I'm very sure I got her thinking a lot more about the people around her. She understands atheists and agnostics far better now. The silent one... well... it looked as if she had turned off quite sometime earlier in the discussion, and the look she gave me at the end was very similar to the one you described in this video.
Thank you TheraminTrees! You guys where my inspiration after leaving the cult 5 years ago. Now, im filled with goosebumps after watching this video. Unbelievable. Perfect. Thank you
Brilliant - glad you made it out! ;8)
+TheraminTrees LOL The smiling face with scholarly glasses. Now I have to step up my emoticon game too?! >:U
Christopher Miller That's a nose, not glasses ... ;8)
I would also frequently get visits from JW's and welcome the discussions. One time a gentleman asked if I happened to notice an uptick of earthquake activity in recent times and I replied, "not at all, - although there are thousands of earthquakes reported each year the USGS (United States Geological Survey) actually reported a reduction in earthquake events for the last few years". These 'challenges' to their dogmatic positions seldom penetrate to a depth that causes them to question their dogmatic positions, so, they're generally useless, - the bible says it, I believe it and that does it! You'll get more benefit knocking your head against a wall.
the bible said it at least 2000 years ago, and they have ignored a lot of history since then.
I'm generally kind to anyone who wants to "save my soul." But I always challenge those people. As a kid I once asked the JWs if alien life on other worlds is possible. It was a long uncomfortable silence.
Lol. A smart one would probably say there are aliens of sorts, the angels.
Or the demon people who walked out of heaven for debatable reasons
14:23 "These were individuals motivated by kindness and love"
The greatest crimes are always committed out of love.
As for dehumanizing? These people are unfortunately doing a great job of that all by themselves. Reducing themselves to unthinking script-spewing puppets. It's very sad.
Some crimes of violence within the family are committed out of misplaced love. But, no the greatest crimes are not committed out of love - many people are harmed or die by negligence or indifference of others and historically hatred has normally been the cause of mistreatment and killings. Love is normally the essential component of our attachment to our friends, family and society.
@@checkoutnow5464 yep, but hatred comes from the belief that the target did or will harm someone or something you love.
@@checkoutnow5464 no, he’s right the greatest crimes are committed out of love. Love is the equivalent of Light. Too much light makes you blind. You must walk the dark to understand the light. These people have been brainwashed that they’re IN the light. People of love.. but in fact, they are the ones that would hurt and destroy in the name of love.
I'm so glad I watched this. The last few minutes made me feel much less alone. It really is frightening to realize your beliefs are bogus. It's a big adjustment. Not easy.
Excellent!
I’ve had some interesting “discussions” w/them, over time, too...each different. Also heard from others, creative solutions to get them to cease harassment. Examples:
1. Middle aged woman lived around corner from JW hall. Neighborhood was ground-zero for newbie proselytizers, always young, in pairs. The woman had repeatedly told them to leave her alone; had gone so far as writing them to A) request, then B) demand, then C) hired lawyer to formally demand they cease & desist harassing.
Yet they continued to door knock.
So, at extremis, the next time, she’d just got out of shower, put on robe, answered door, took a sexy pose leaning on door frame, letting robe fall open, and said, in sultry voice...”can I help you boys?”...they were mid-teens, very shocked, jaws agape, turned, ran...THEN, no more came to door. (That might backfire, these days though..that was back in the 1970’s).
2. We lived in apartment, up long flight of steps, small landing by door. 2 older gals stood at sidewalk, while the teen newbie gal climbed steps to proselytize. She started her spiel. I asked her, “isn’t your religion the one that says something like only 244,000 will be saved & sit with God?” She lit-up smiling, chatting how nice it was I was familiar even a little (probly thot her task would be easier?...).
She started chattering along again, more at ease. I asked the 2nd question: “How many members does the religion have, worldwide, now?” Again, lit-up, smiling, said some number in the Millions, and kept chattering about how great the religion was.
After a little bit more chatter, I asked the 3rd question: “Isn’t that over-kill?”
She instantly stopped chattering, looked absolutely shocked, like the carefully stacked Jenga pieces behind her face, just started to disassemble....then asked “Ummm...what?”
I said: “Well, if the religion has millions of members, but only about 244,000 are promised to be saved, what happens with the rest of them who aren’t??”
Well, by then, the Jenga-tower of programming behind her face was in free-fall.
She stuttered, almost in tears, “I’m doing God’s work! It’s ok if I’m not one of the Saved!!” She was clearly Losing it.
At that point, I simply, gently, with sincere compassion, told her, “The God I believe, is unconditional in their love, and would never leave out any who sincerely did their best to do God’s work; would unconditionally bring them along to be together.”
She repeated her stuttering explanation of doing God’s work....spun on her heal, and about flew down the steps.
None ever came to the door there again.
3. At new location, a couple older gals repeatedly visited. I never let them into the house, no matter how cold out it was. We’d stand on covered porch (no seats), talking about various things. At length. Telling them it was pointless, as spouse was pastoring at a different religion’s church, didn’t even register in their minds. Yes, I did know very well, that putting them in physically uncomfortable situation, was ploy to get them to give up, and, can be a form of brainwashing tool, too. We talked mostly of philosophical & religious, some as relates to world & events.
This continued a couple times per month, or monthly, for over a year. Then they stopped, after I repeatedly told them to stop coming...at least for over a year.
Then an older guy came, and we did similar...stood on porch, talked at length.
He was a bit more aggressive at trying to get me to take the fliers; repeatedly asked about pastor spouse.
What got scary, was that his facial expressions and tone of voice, frequently were very threatening/intimidating; And, his talks literally repeated, some verbatim, things I’d said in conversations with the 2 women before him. ...CLEARLY, the JW’s kept files on prospects!
So, only a few visits into this guy’s routine, and very short on time/energy, I simply told the guy,
... “We do not tolerate, aid or abet cults, nor cult-like behaviors, here!”.
His face didn’t even register he’d heard it, and kept talking.
So, I repeated that a 2nd time. His face only barely registered partial comprehension, he stepped towards me, talking.
I repeated that sentence a 3rd time, this time making sure of deep, Svengali-eye contact, and very firm, clear, enunciated tones, as his face was now into my personal airspace, less than 2’ away......this time he stuttered, seemed at loss for words; he reflexively shoved pamphlets into the now closing door. I carefully pushed those back out the door, told him firmly, “Remove the pamphlets! Take them away with you! No cults allowed here! Leave!”
Never came back.
At new location now, we either don’t answer door, or simply, politely, tell JW’s & LDS “No thanks”.
Now, though, the HOA posted “no soliciting” signs at entrance.
We tell them plainly, “There’s no soliciting in this neighborhood!”...that usually gets arguments of “We’re not soliciting, only sharing and educating”...to which we respond, “Soliciting is same as selling; you are selling religious beliefs; we didn’t ask for that; therefore, you, legally, are soliciting, against posted signage, which makes it prosecutable”.
The JW’s have mostly stayed away after that, but the LDS don’t seem to get it yet.
They might have to though, if some around here sue the churches for harassment; for soliciting in a neighborhood with “no soliciting” signs clearly posted.
A nice story :) I experienced a very similar one.
I invited them for tea and had nice long discussions.
The second or third discussion, an elder member came along, who was better versed in the doctrines and was more rigid in his thinking than the young relatively newly converted witness that had visited me before. I nearly had the feeling that I had gotten through to him a little at some point - not sure though.
The next visit seemed to me like a last attempt: They described to me the blessed state of heaven, the lack of suffering and problems.
As I told them that this vision of passive happiness holds no more allure to me than a heroin trip, it was clear that we had no more to talk about, and they did not come back.
I allways let them in..
weeks later I'll invariably bump into one in the street and they thank me for giving them a reason to question..
I simply can't let them in, I'm too lazy to open the door, and some times they come while I'm cooking, The last time I oppened the door my food got burned
You'd think the elders would learn, and add your house to the "do not visit" list.
The exact same scripts and thought-processes as JW's here in Denmark. I'd like to say it's unbelievable.. but it unfortunately isn't :(
And in Croatia too... I also had about eight "seanses" with JWs and this video could have been about the same people - the same math teacher analogy, bad comparisons of penguins that fly in the water, anti evolution stuff, consulting the book to answer my question with simplistic and wrong answers, and most of all unconscious hypocrisy when saying that something is right for God, but five minutes later saying the same thing is unacceptable for men. :(
I am an ex JW. And they literally rehearse these analogies these ideals every week multiple times a week. These are scripted responses. whenever I talk to friends now I give you the exact responses as a joke because they are the exact same wherever you go.
I hope Penny’s doing well, all these years later. You guys did a wonderful thing for her, and I hope with your discussions she came to more critically evaluate the cult she’s unfortunately found herself in. Wherever you are Penny, I hope you’re well, and I sincerely wish you made it out ok
I hope some part of your talks made it through to Penny. I hope she made it out.
Excellent video - possibly one of the best I've seen on the contradictions and superficialities that bedevil the JW organization and the fish-out-of-water awkwardness of the JW who is even slightly out of his or her comfort zone. I feel for their struggle to remain true to a deplorably anti-human belief system that champions unthinking authority over personal research and integrity.
I remember one of my favourite teachers with whom I had a fundamental disagreement. I remember arguing about this with her in front of the class, during a lesson. Neither of us convinced the other, but she cheerfully allowed me to present my viewpoint in class, and my grades never suffered as a result.
The presence of two of them at all times is an obvious strat so that they can keep each other in line. I was recently in a class where my teacher was talking about visiting the Chinese embassy for a stage-managed tour and some interviews, and she mentioned that she was always talking to at least two of them. It made me think of this video
I'm so glad there are people like you who are willing to sit and debate with missionaries!
20 years ago I was a Mormon missionary when a kind atheist man invited us in. This was a shock, since most people simply turned us away uninterested. He offered us a comfortable seat and something to drink, and asked concerned questions like whether we had a safe place to live, which I later realized were intended to determine whether we were in some kind of human trafficking situation (a lot of Mormon missions are very close to that).
Then he spent over an hour debating with us, debunking every pretense I had of logical reasoning for belief in God. When we left, I was clinging to blind faith alone, which lasted me through the rest of my mission but evaporated within a year after I got home.
Thank you for making a video on Jehovah's Witnesses.
Yfw quiet teacher starts wispering pumped up kicks.
"If you look at penguins from under the water, they appear to be flying over you."
Okay... What about emus, ostriches, dodos or cassowaries?
They appear to be flying over the ants on the ground 😂
Kiwis are a good one
@@lunatheluma3804 Oh ya good call. I don't think there's anyway you can slice it to say that kiwis "fly"
This exact same fucking thing happened to me with mormons. One of them was listening and aknoweldging the questions I had, and aknowledged he couldn't quite answer them. Eventually he was replaced by a much more agressive dude that would not engage in honest conversation. Must be a tactic common among fundamentalists.
When the JW's quoted romans 1:22, were they talking about you or themselves?
Wow, great analysis! When I was an active JW I wasn’t afraid of people like you who challenged me to think. Little did I know, my own intellect was burbling away under the intellectual stagnation of the religion and tiny cracks were forming in the muck. That’s why when I left my starved mind drove me right into college and I did not miss the company of those dumbed down minions.
Want to see JW hate, the real hate that simmers just below their carefully constructed veneer? Try being innocent of any moral wrongdoing and run into lifelong friends who sneer at you in the street for leaving the org. and going to school! An activity still scathingly denounced by their Governing Body members, by the way. Going to school is their equivalent of fornicating with the Devil.
I don’t cut them any slack as I don’t believe as poor Anne Frank did, there is good in everyone. I’ve seen the mask come off JW people I knew for decades and it’s a life lesson I’ll never forget!
It is a natural but flawed assumption that one has an adult mind when one has an adult body.
8:44 every math teacher I’ve ever had. “Doesn’t matter if you can do problem 1 in 3 steps you have to use this 8 step system” “Why” “because this is my classroom and my rules”
The statement only works if you don’t account for human arrogance in those who interact with those who on average are below them. They have a very difficult time accepting that some are higher than them.
I needed this in my life. Please dont stop. Please keep up with the stories dialogues. I'm preparing myself for the day when my family starts asking questions and I need to be able to respond in a respectful and open way that shows me as wanting them to understand how I became an atheist rather than showing them how to become atheist.
I wonder what long term impact you have made on Penny. I would like to think that even if our initial message doesn't get through to the other side, that something we say may resonate within them for some form of personal betterment, even if only a little.
Here's a story you or one of your Patreon supporters might enjoy. The conversations are paraphrased to the best of my memory.
A few months ago I was at a fair in which a man set up a booth discussing the "falsehoods" of evolution. There were free books and dinosaur toys scattered across the table. I read a sign which stated evolution contradicts conventional science. Having never debated creationists outside the internet before, I was perhaps a bit too overzealous as the first words to leave my mouth were, "Excuse me, but have you ever opened a science book?"
The man behind the booth stood up in an instance, primed with the anti-evolution rhetoric we're all far too familiar with. This was not the first time he's been challenged. He exclaimed, "Science is wrong. We must rely on the word of God as written in the Bible." I immediately pointed to the sign that claimed evolution contradicts science. I asked, "You say science is wrong but the sign says evolution contradicts science. Which is it? You can't have it both ways."
Our conversation about evolution was brief and heated, but with a daring smile I said, "I enjoy these kinds of discussions." The man at the booth smiled as well, "Me too." I knew I wasn't going to change this man's views. The reason I debated this fellow is because I enjoy debates... and I also wanted to potentially ward off any nearby parents or children who might be drawn by the pseudo-scientific books. But as I looked at the different books on the table, my heart sunk. No longer was I debating creationism for fun, my motivation for speaking out changed.
Although most of the books were creationist propaganda, there were a handful of small booklets that differed from the rest. My stomach tightened as I reached down and picked one of them up. The subject? The sinfulness of homosexuality. I held the bundle of print up to the man in front of me, "This booklet right here contributes to the suicide of many homosexual teenagers." He explained that it wasn't the book that made teenagers suicidal, but their sinfulness.
As he began to explain the sinful nature of homosexuality, I interrupted him. "I'm not concerned with whether or not homosexuality is a sin. What I'm concerned with is the effect these booklets have on gay teenagers." I explained the different ways parents often react with hate upon discovering their children are gay. He agreed. He made a few more attempts at defining homosexuality as sinful, but abandoned these arguments when he realized they weren't relevant to my concern.
"I think it's wrong to tell anyone that homosexuality is a sin. But if you genuinely believe it's a sin, then at the very least you need to not punish children for being gay. You need to love them." Because I wasn't going to convince this fellow to change his views on homosexuality, I didn't address the issue. It would have been a waste of time and only detracted from the main point I wanted to make. I just wanted him to be aware of the violent ways in which some people react to their children when they come out of the closet.
We both shook hands and agreed that loving those around us is important. We agreed that when those around us act in ways we disapprove of, we shouldn't resort to yelling at them, punishing them, or isolating them - but instead we should continue to love them.
As long as he teaches others that homosexuality is a sin, only harm will come from these actions. But if he can teach others to react to homosexuality with love, then maybe less harm may be done. I sincerely hope our conversation left some sort of impact on him. Who knows? Maybe I'll see him again at the next county fair. If I do, I'll be sure to ask him about it.
+NoNameC68 Yes, I think there's good reason to believe that some of the folks we speak to will reflect on what we've said and shift their position to some positive degree. It's about generating dissonance isn't it - offering contradictions that folks will have to square in their minds. The JWs got onto the subject of homosexuality too - some real naked hate came out on that one. The beauty of subjects like homosexuality is that critics don't have a leg to stand on - rarely are issues so clear-cut. Qualia and I pointed out contradiction after contradiction in all of their objections, until Marcia went into a kind of meltdown. But yes, I think it was Penny who we held out most hope for. Would be great to be able to find out what happened with some of the folks we meet - like your man in the fair. Maybe, as you say, he'll turn up again.
Did you see him again?
Nah, I haven't been to that particular fair since. Even if I did see him, I doubt I would recognize him unless he was behind another creationist booth. If, by some stroke of luck, I do converse with him again in the future I'll definitely update my story.
NoNameC68 None, we work from a completely different premise. People are not so aware of and don’t question their assumptions. Most people just believe what they’re told to believe by society at large.
I love you TheraminTrees
Oh the mind-numbing numb-mindedness of my jw childhood. It really is quite incredible the amount of un-learning required after cultist indoctrination and the ability of people to do that heavy lifting. Sometimes I can forget just how far I’ve come from that history.
This was SUPERB! Thank you for posting!
It's a real shame the JWs have never visited me. They did visit my grandfather though when i was living with him for a while. After some discussions i sort of implied that i would appreciate that they would not return as my grandfather was old and getting a bit slow and was easily convinced of almost anything someone was trying to sell.
Mormons i have met. They seem to be a bit more free in their discussions and some of them were really smart and able to answer hard questions themselves.
Im in a private christian school, and whenever we ask the priest and all some deep questions about Bible and some weird stuff they never give us a proper answer.
This video is simply incredible. Thank you for creating this and sharing your experience.