Hey y’all, I’m the guy who said I’m quitting CTGP in the stream clip included in this video and I wanted to include a little more context since I think it helps make a point Olmi *partially* forgot to cover in this video. The clip played right after Olmi talked about beginners quitting, but I’m not actually new to the game at all, I’ve actively considered mkwii to be one of if not my favourite game of all time since it came out, and I’ve played it somewhat often for all those years including streaming it weekly for the past 3 years… …But I still cannot almost ever complete even one lap of Mushroom Peaks without falling off the long mushroom section. Why? Because no other track in the entirety of mkwii, even in CTGP, will give you the knowledge or specific skillset that is *mandatory to merely survive* playing Mushroom Peaks. The track is designed so that you either know *exactly* where to land on every single mushroom (because where you land on them matters in mkwii) or you just die. It’s a knowledge check that does not care how many years you have been playing the game as a whole because that all that other experience with any of the other tracks Does Not Matter. I don’t think it’s just me who feels like this kind of design philosophy goes beyond being unappealing to JUST beginners. My decision to quit came after multiple years of holding out hope that something would actually be done about this and other tracks mentioned in this video but, like Olmi mentioned, the track removal voting process has only gotten more frustrating as they refuse to even include the tracks I actually want gone in the voting pool, and the last time peaks WAS included, it had a (iirc) 53% removal vote which was clearly outright ignored saying as it’s still here. I think the pack overall has done wonders for expanding the mkwii community and keeping the game alive, but this subset of tracks that genuinely feel like they’re being protected by the higher-ups, despite being so questionable in quality, began to muddy my experience streaming the game every week due to how often they tend to get picked for whatever reason (like Olmi said, this likely DOES include people just picking them to troll the lobby) to the point I’ve simply had to step away from the pack entirely until at the very least most things mentioned by Olmi in this video are actually addressed.
@@Sizzyl Retro Rewind would be sick in that regard. Either that or Mario Kart Wii Deluxe. Both are great packs that also have Dolphin support, making the barrier for entry in 2024 so much easier.
in the most recent poll, peaks had the worst keep/remove ratio of any track in CTGP. so basically, it fails to appeal to any demographic of players compared to any other track in CTGP. there is quite literally zero justification or reason to keep it anymore other than nostalgia (or, dare I say, narcissism)
@@jclkaytwo The fact that it is the most played track of the pack by a landslide is the reasoning from what I understand. Bean doesn't wanna remove tracks THAT popular I don't necessarily agree with that mindset, since like I said, some people do it for easy VR or for trolling, but I do understand it to some degree
3:29 100% agree 4:08 Definitely true but I don't see that changing anytime soon 4:56 Yep 9:37 There's been no focus toward the new player experience. I've tried offering solutions to this like an easier alternative CTWW mode removing half the tracks with 150cc only. This would give new players a chance and bring activity to worldwides again (hopefully). It's been the same problems keeping the mod from getting more active players for years now unfortunately. Luckily there are many other CT distributions available nowadays helping keep the game alive
Wait I haven't heard of the easier alternative CTWW mode Idea, I like that a lot actually But yea I'm very glad that other distributions are keeping the game alive, this game's so cool :)
troy ctgp is going to die and we know it if bean doesnt actually do anything which he hasnt for the state of the game for over 3 years now its safe to say once comp dies in this game only retro rewind will survive and keep this game rolling
You were right to correct yourself when you said Mushroom Peaks was the first every custom track, as it was not. But it also was not the first original design. To my knowledge, if we exclude Test Circle, that would be Lava Canyon (still by MrBean and Chadderz though)! Peaks being the first track is misinformation that was likely started to make it seem more integral to staying in CTGP than it really is. It's still a very early track and was still revolutionary for its time, but yeah not the first. I've been saying this about the target audience for years, and I've mentioned this to members of the track council too. They're trying to appeal to everyone, but in turn are appealing to very little people. CTWW is so much less popular than it used to be, and it's no surprise why. Everyone's playing Retro Rewind nowadays, partially because it's more accessible with emulators, but at least for me I'd rather play only retro tracks than have a chance of running into Mushroom Peaks or an arbritarily long track, even though I generally prefer original designs. I think Mushroom Peaks is very representitive of the problem which is why it's such a scapegoat, and genuinely for me if it was removed I'd probably be more willing to play CTGP. At least that's how I felt a few years ago. Nowdays, other packs interest me a lot more. Speaking of Council, they really are trying. They're always trying to get more casual, non comp players on board. And a lot of them fully agree that Peaks should be gone (from what I hear), but they're simply not allowed because Bean has the final say. And Bean doesn't value "unpopularity" seemingly at all, only seeming to really care about the amount of times it gets picked online which is flawed for so many reasons imo. I used to have a lot of issues with council, but they've gotten so much better with how they treat authors and the higher ups are genuinely great people. I don't have any issues with Bean either, just how he runs CTGP. Hi Bean if you see this, sorry I'm always being mean to your pack!
Yeah, I don't have the full historical context, so my bad on thinking it was the first. But at least I knew it was an early one! Peaks being representative of the problem and being picked as often as it is just makes it super easy for it to be the scapegoat. One thing I didn't mention but should have is that 4 out of 5 CTGP sessions I do take me to Mushroom Peaks at least once (I only play the game for Sunday sessions) which amplifies the problem way more than what it really should be
@@OlmiOP For sure! And like, there's so many hypothetical changes that could have come about years ago. Like reducing the lap count, blocking it from CTWW, putting in a secret track slot (since CTGP has 2 already). For the last 3+ years I've been told of this hypothetical Peaks update that will fix everything but "concepts of a plan" aren't enough to get people to unquit sadly ):
@@MayroSMM I'm still surprised that Peaks isn't a secret track. If it's gonna be on the pack then it makes sense to be there So many ways, but so many complications...
Very good video, Olmi! Glad I could help out! Although Bean & I patched things up with the peaks stuff two years ago, it still baffles me that obvious quality control problems still exist.
You also have this mindset where only Wii consoles can play. I want to play on Dolphin so let me. If you're worried about cheaters you already have an anti cheat system in place so I think this is quite stupid
@@TheVideoGameReject The way this is worded makes it look like it's directed at Mankalor which would make 0 sense tbh I don't necessarily think the mindset is terrible to have but there's def gonna be a lot of downsides to it
it doesnt matter much, but karting is an abject nightmare in CTs shrooms and constant flip ramps and blind 90 degree turns makes the tracks monolithic knowledge checks. not all tracks NEED to be easily driven by all vehicles but i genuinely was so done with mile long straight aways that caused a 6 second time-loss because i had the gaul to have 4 wheels. some tracks are even favoured to karts, but those are few and far between.
That's less of a problem now a days compared to what it used to be, since the amount of amazing tracks now far beats the bad, but the frequency of people picking the bad tracks makes it seem a lot worse than it actually is
Some rando out there is probably going to say "skill issue," but when I played the official tracks, I found myself almost never needing to look at the minimap to see where I was going.
@@AkameGaKillfan777 That is definitely something that CTs struggle with more, since they’re done by independent people there’s a lot less playtesting to perfect everything then nintendo does they tend to be a lot more confusing. Readability is a very important aspect to track design but it’s quite a difficult one to master, as a track creator myself I know from experience
to everyone who sees this: CTGP is now holding a poll regarding the fate of mushroom peaks and whether it should stay or be removed. this is our chance. vote and spread the word!
The community management is straight up poo poo. Releasing a 24 player beta, then not releasing it fully after 4 years is insane. Lack of updates and interesting ideas keep me off CTGP-R.
Understandable really. I've learned after posting this video some of the reasons community management is like this, but I'm not about to argue you really
I actually looked into a video by a UA-camr named Ket because of your reply, and I think I’m starting to understand what you mean. And it seems like the community, aside from other issues, is a bit held back from change. This is evident in track variety, and the people who deny removals or changes to tracks that need to be fixed. I think that’s what holds it back for me I guess. New track packs have interesting systems and ideas. The CTGP Team seems to be at a “You can’t fix what ain’t broke” mindset, and because they are extremely fond of what they’ve built, they don’t necessarily see the cracks, or see a reason to make it stronger. I also found out that BEAN is the one managing these updates by himself. I think in a way, that’s great, giving him full and total control of the project. Making updates is long and tedious. Though I think he should get a team of people to help, while still following MrBeans criteria. Had that been done we would’ve gotten something timeless. (Oh yeah btw great video)
@@PTRaisin Bean may be the head of the pack and his say is final, but he's not the only one working on CTGP! I recently got reached out to by someone that works in the council, explaining a lot more of the situation and why things are the way they are, as well as some misconceptions. They'd leave a comment, but UA-cam seemed to have shadow banned them somehow?
A few weeks ago I came to the conclusion that CTGP is getting the worst of all sides - trying to appeal to too many different playerbases (newcomers, casual worldwide players, time trialers, and competitive players) and as a result are appealing to none of them. This video does a pretty good job at explaining this! I agree with most of the points however disagree with a few simply because (like you said at the beginning) you lack some additional context. Overall your conclusion is the same so that’s all that matters! As a TASer, it’s difficult to have a voice about CTGP since I’m not at all involved in the RTA scene but I really hope to see it improve to the point that it can thrive again!
CTGP admin/competitive player here for the last 3 years or so, just gonna spitball address the 5 issues. 1. Too long tracks- I actually generally disagree with this. I appreciate you acknowledging it's very subjective, and I while I definitely recognize there are some that feel too long it's usually from the tracks being boring. Take GCN Rainbow Road, I find it pretty funny but I understand that for most people it's just incredibly boring. WR is 3:36 or something pre-kart cut and only really has 1 interesting part (the end cut and spiral). So when you drive the rest of the track, it just feels very boring and monotonous. Whereas something like desert fort (which you brought up) and honeybee hideout, along with castle of time all have really interesting driving for the majority of it. You bring up an interesting point with rBC being the longest track in Wii, which is true but I like to see it in a different context. WR on that is 4:19 iirc. Obviously it's for a different platform, but I don't find it entirely unprecedented to have there be long tracks as they can provide interest if the inherent track is good. 2. Required tech- Just elaborating on this now as well since I know it's brought up later, there is more to tech than just some series of inputs that let you take a shortcut. It can also be just specific driving methods that work really well in niche scenarios. That's one of the reasons why the CTGP version of 3ds RR has held up for so long, there is genuinely so much tech in the driving here and there. If you go pull up Ivan's world record video on it and just watch the driving, you'll notice there are times he'll wheelie off ramps instead of trick, avoid tricking at all to go tight (like on the spiral), go off the edge of ramps to get lower air, cancel his wheelie to land on the right part of the moon, hoptrick to force a trick off the moon, clip the very side of a ramp to get a low, etc etc etc. To a casual perspective I can totally understand how perceiving these seem almost impossible, but it's one of those things that when you get better at the game, you can start to appreciate it much more. I would highly, highly recommend watching Sawyer's BKT on glimmer express trains to see an amazing example of tech and driving, probably one of the best CT WRs on a tech track ever and a lot of it is easy to notice if you pay attention even for a casual. The question is really where is the line drawn between tech that is fun and tech that is bad. I actually love to drive peaks and really do enjoy the tech on the track, but I think we can all agree here that the tech being required on the track is one of the most prominent issues in the community and we'll get into that more later. 3. Too Jank- I can agree with this in large part, but feel like this just overlaps with your second point about required tech which I would just extend to required knowledge. Pipe underworld L1 route falling down, Incendia L1 path falling, etc. I've even volunteered to help out over time with those (I made the update to infernal pipeyard getting in next update, have started the mushroom peaks remake as well) so I fully do back the idea that there are tracks that could do amazing with just some minor changes and visual overhauls. I get that delfino island might seem a bit weird, but it's really just a wheelie off the ramp. And if you're not comfortable, the around route was buffed to only lose 1.5 seconds or so which is akin to doing the dock shortcut on delfino square. Don't get me wrong we still have some other ones not addressed here (like paths on SKL) but point is I agree and think we are getting better largely. 4. Too many tracks- I like the argument you made here about the variety being an issue, and I do agree that overall the pack is split. The thing is, I genuinely don't see a way to make a good pack at this point. The main reason retro rewind is doing so well is due to lack of NAND. This means people don't have to own a game or console to play, they just download the game of the internet, boot up dolphin on their PC, and bam they can play with troy and everyone else in their rooms. CTGP doesn't have that because Bean refuses to add it (for very understandable legal reasons), so we're inherently dealing with a limited playerbase. CTWWs are dead, and we don't have a lot of players anymore. If we decide to go full casual, comp will die and we won't have enough players anymore to play online. If we go full comp, that could in theory work as they don't really CTWW but we'd be dealing with an incredibly stagnant pack and trust me comp is a cynical bitch. While I agree that there is a problem especially with certain tracks appealing to only one audience (Melting to comp for example, and Toad's Temple for casuals), we're not really in a position where we have the ability to change that. 5. Community Management- Before we really dive into this, I want to really give an idea for what we as admins and council have control over. We do homework on tracks submitted to the pack, vote on them, and then accept/reject based on votes. We also run community threads for authors to try and help them get feedback on their work to varying degrees of success. We also run tests to try and prevent the tracks from being broken when they get added. That's about it though. Things like removing mushroom peaks or removing tracks in the top 50 popularity at all are explicitly forbidden by Bean, and we have to convince him to remove those which believe me with tracks like peaks we have tried. I've successfully helped remove ASDF course and made the paper to remove GP mario beach, but again we're talking hours and hours of work just to try to convince Bean to remove a track he really doesn't care about. A track like peaks is incredibly important to him, it's a track he made with his sibling in the primes of their lives, staying up late drinking soda and eating pizza or whatever and just having time together. This is all speculation, but I would argue that's one of the large reasons even if he can't admit it to himself that he doesn't want it gone, and being honest I understand that totally. You'll hear arguments about popularity and whatever about why it should stay, but being as candid as I can I don't think anyone really deep down believes peaks is healthy for the pack. None of this is to slander bean in any way, in fact I empathize a lot with the sort of sacrifice and time he has put to getting the community to where it is now, but it's clearly time for him to let go of that past and focus on a new direction for the game in the path that peaks lead all the way back in 2009 nearly 15 years ago. Also minor fact correction, removal polls never had all the tracks on them. We put up surveys every 6 months to track how well tracks are liked (the figure you cited) but the removal polls are different. I'd be happy to share all the removal results with you as well if you want to see them, but mushroom peaks has never been on a removal poll nor have a majority of tracks been on a removal poll. We specifically target low popularity tracks and low rating tracks for removal. In fact 2 updates ago Incendia Castle was on the list and wasn't voted out for removal somehow. I'd be fine to talk about this and get more into the details with you as well in a call at some point as there is a lot I'm not going into for the sake of brevity (acting as if this is brief), lmk if you're interested. I'm rocksaltwa on discord. Have a nice evening
@@echomkw I actually recently got reached out to by jc, giving me a lot of similar information and opinions, but honestly it's very interesting to see this perspective I've said this before, but while I understand where Bean is coming from, it is still the wrong move to keep peaks it around if you ask me. Top 50 popularity can come from a lot of people trolling or for easy VR gains as well, not just people who like it Not really much else I can add to most of it but I am intrigued on seeing the rest of the polls
tbh i see comp going to another pack with anti cheat to limit cheaters honestly like retro rewind once it gets anti cheat and the tracks get completely polished
I remember a few years ago I watched one of my favourite streamers, Fuzzyness, get into mkw through CTGP. He seemed to really enjoy playing the game until Peaks was picked. He ended up giving up without completing even a lap and I haven‘t seen him play the game since. I can‘t help but wonder how many other players had this exact experience with the game.
Great video! I have a lot of sympathy for critiques of CTGP like this, and these started getting on my nerves a lot as well when I still played that pack. For me the breaking point was when they removed Envenom Snowstorm from the pack (although of course there were some other questionable track removals/additions leading up to that too). Beautiful track, very easy to learn, no mandatory kaizo-esque tech, and a perfectly acceptable length that made it a good romp for both new and experienced players. And it got replaced by Darkness Temple, which suffers from every single flaw listed in this video.
One thing not mentioned in the videos but mentioned in the comments, 24 racers still requiring a twitch sub to Mr Bean is horrendous. Its been 5 years at this point.
I haven't played CTGP in a while, but I still diatinctly remember a lot of track design problems. Bouncing mushrooms not being placed well/too many of them in a row, tracks being too long, tracks being too complicated both for players and CPUs, and a *lot* of sudden turns being placed too closely to the landing off of a ramp making it impossible to make the turn unless you have an inside drifting bike or position yourself weirdly prior to going off the ramp.
I don't typically make Mario Kart content on my UA-cam so I had to give a bit of an intro to CTGP for those unaware, but those who are aware could skip it and go straight to the point :)
I my self had enough of ctgp r where it constantly removes the good and interesting tracks and you mentioned most tracks are way too long janky (peaks example) and that they Rather go for quantity then quality with 24player still locked behind a paywall is disgusting something that should have been finished by now sure its impressive but still disgusting and as a mod he is the worse the guy thearten me to be perm ban for first offense its honestly sad he rather listens to hi wiener then his gud and thinks first before taking actions i moved on to other Mario Kart Games and non mk games i feel in a much better place as time goes on in my opinion Ctgp will slowly die and it makes more sense to use Ctgp classic since it kind of cares more about quality then quantity with actual improved features
He should be grateful that Nintendo doesn't care(or most likely hasn't noticed) about needing to pay money for 24 player races on Wii. I can almost guarantee if he tried doing that for 8 Deluxe, they would've sent a Cease and Desist order without hesitation.
I just hate how they don’t add new features anymore. The fact that 24 player multiplayer is still in beta is fucking bullshit. It’s been around for like four fucking years. Not to mention, the guy is an asshole because he won’t put the game on dolphin and he has anti-piracy measures to make sure that people won’t run it on dolphin because God forbid people pirate a 20 year old game just to experience a mod.
Genuinely I feel like the issues are a lot worse then they otherwise would be had CTGP not been the _only_ distribution most new players flock too, as least for most of the games life. I don’t even have an issue for a CT distribution to have a sort of monopoly on paper, but that distribution needs to live up to that for it to work. As it is now I think a lot of people play CTGP, play the outdated tracks over and over and write off CTs as a whole. It’s honestly kinda upsetting seeing people say things like “90% of custom tracks are garbage” and I feel like a lot of that stems from people not having a good first impression of CTGP and thinking that that’s a summary of custom tracks as a whole, because there are far more amazing tracks that stand toe to toe with Nintendo’s nowadays that a lot of people won’t see. Genuinely I feel like the custom track community would be at its best if CTGP (or whatever the first pack most people play is) was an entry into the greater custom track community rather then having almost a monopoly. Retro Rewind getting popular is a start but it doesn’t fix the problem since retros don’t really introduce a gateway to all the original designs, but eh. My only idea for a solution to this is to make the introductory pack only have highly polished, beginner freindly tracks? Like, The Grand Archives is a perfect example of it like you said, even though it has difficult strats it’s not hard for a newcomer to play it and know where to go from the start. To be honest I don’t really know what I’m saying any more and I haven’t even played CTGP, it just doesn’t appeal to me, just spitballing all my personal problems with it. Great video btw
Hi, competitive CT player here. I've been playing CTGP on and off for about 7 years, though I've been playing more consistently in the last year. First of all I just want to say I appreciate you making this video. A fresh perspective of the mod from a newer casual player like yourself is much needed. There have been other videos that have been made talking about the state of the pack, but most of these types of videos come from people who have been in the community for years. But getting to the point of the video, a lot of people from the competitive scene are also unhappy with the pack's tracklist (albeit for different reasons) and it really begs the question you asked of who CTGP is trying to appeal to. I think the pack evolved into what it is today because CTs were more of a novelty back when this pack was in its infancy, and people were just excited to play something that wasn't vanilla Mario Kart Wii. CTs have a lot to offer for this game because (in an ideal world) they bring the chaos of Mario Kart together with the phethora of jank tech unique to Mario Kart Wii. That charm and novelty is long gone though, and while the track council works their asses off to help CTGP reach its potential, we've sadly still found ourselves where we are today. Your complaints about track length and the issues with advanced strats being knowledge checks are understandable, but I would say there are only ~100 CTs that would fall into this category (it mostly seems worse than it actually is because as you said people pick those types of tracks to win, but even still that's almost if not half of the pack). I actually like the strat heavy tracks because they bring a lot to the table in terms of learning how the game works in addition to being very rewarding to learn and even moreso to execute in a race (though I realize that sentiment is likely only present with competitive players), but I also understand that's not a popular opinion. Track length is something that has a lot more mixed opinions because I've talked to some of my friends who I play CTWWs with casually (they're not competitive players) and they seem to enjoy the longer tracks, whereas other people love to say that a handful of the tracks in the pack should be 2 laps. I think the sweet spot for track length is between 2:00 and about 3:15-3:30, anything longer is pushing it. I'm not going to claim that I know where the pack needs to go from here or that my ideas would make the pack better, but I do agree that something needs to be done. I'm particularly bummed about how dead the competitive scene is because as I've stated the current tracklist is very polarizing and leaves much to be desired. Just for a small insight, competitive CT players who play Mogi Lounge (Mario Kart's ranked competitive ladder, if you're familiar with that) were having to play in all division rooms where people of all skill levels had to play together because there were too few players. As far as the changes I'd want, I would really like to see a mixture of iconic older tracks with a fresh coat of paint make a comeback as well as newer designs that are casual friendly but still have depth for strategies and tech (Fort Francis is a great example of this), or even just tracks that are simple and don't need all the fancy strats to be good like Garden of Dreams. Above all of that though, I'd really like to see some new code features as those have played a huge role in Retro Rewind's success. I just want to see CTGP see that same success because it has a lot of potential. Again, thank you for making this video :)
Totally reasonable opinions to have, both the ones that agree and the ones that differ. I'm happy with CTGP overall but there's a lot that could be improved, and I'm glad to be able to share my stance and have it actually be meaningful :)
I certainly agree that the main issue with CTGP-R nowadays is the difficulty to appeal to both casual/non-competitive players and competitive/long-time players. The good news is this is being addressed and there are plans to hopefully make CTGP-R better appeal to casuals while not ruining it for competitive players. The CTGP Council consists of mostly players who play competitively or do time trials frequently, and not as many casual CTGP players who mostly just play in CTWWs and fun rooms. Fortunately, the most recent Council applications were only for casual players in hopes that casual players (myself included) have a voice. This will hopefully allow for more tracks being added to CTGP-R being enjoyed by both casual and competitive players. Of course there will be some that only appeal to one side, but hopefully less. And there are indeed some tracks that were added to CTGP lately that are enjoyed by both sides, such as Fort Francis and Shy Guy Lumber Co. Even Banished Keep is enjoyed by both sides because although there's many cuts and strats, many of them are fairly easy to learn and feel great wehn you finally pull them off, and it's pretty fun to drive in general and has a nice scenery. Some tracks in the pack are indeed long/boring. Sometimes they are fixed or removed but it can be difficult for that to happen especially if they are picked often. They would need to have serious issues that make their precense in CTGP bad (I know Mushroom Peaks counts there but it's especially tough when it's almost always the top picked track). People can pick them to cheese free wins and VR or just for memes. That's unfortunately an issue that extends to tracks beyond Mushroom Peaks. I do agree that CTGP-R is in a tough position now, especially with other MKWii packs competing now, but I do hope that people are optimistic for the future and that the plans and recent casual voices being added work out for CTGP and attract more new players.
Honestly recent updates have given me a lot of faith for CTGP's future, but the sticking points NEED to be mentioned in order for said progress to go along But yea recent tracks are a blast! Banished Keep is one of my favorites but I used the shortcut as an example of a bit of a learning curve (though it's done right in this case)
Bro is spittin facts. As someone who's been playing ctgp for a long time, I can agree with what you're saying. But I do enjoying ctgp regardless of tracks being too easy or difficult.
Nothing wrong with enjoying the pack regardless, I still have mostly a good time when playing it :) People can recognize the faults of something and still like it, afterall!
I think an issue in of itself when talking about the problems of CTGP is people tend to get way too broad and vague about what they're actually talking about. So I'm glad you went into detail while also being thorough. Very good video Olmi ❤
@@Toadeight it's easy to single out Peaks since it encapsulates a lot of the problems with the pack as a whole, but talking about JUST peaks and not looking at the bigger picture is probably the reason why this topic has been as controversial as it is And thank youuu
I’ve been a Mario Kart Wii CT fan for 3 years now, and I have only played CTGP for one of them. Granted, I’m not the kind of person who plays online, I just like MKW mods for the track selection and how fun they are to play locally. Still, I agree with a few of the points you brought, but my personal biggest issue is the track rotation. Every few months, it just kinda feels like they’re getting rid of a few good and actually fun tracks for others that might be better or worse, while keeping outdated trash like Mushroom Peaks and Six King Labyrinth, and forcing you to get a completely different mod, CTGP Classic, if you wanna play that specific track again. Revolution is fine as an introduction to custom tracks, but there are much better options that I’m playing nowadays such as Mario Kart Wii Deluxe, the Mario Kart Midnight games, and the 4500-track playground Insane Kart Wii. That last option especially is a blast to play with my brothers, the random items option is pure chaos.
I’ve not played CTGP-R (or heck, MKW) in so long. It’s actually the reason why I got into modding consoles and homebrewing years back. I’ve been too busy playing other racing games recently I guess. I mostly play against CPUs and splitscreen when I do play. Every once in a while I’d hop online but if the rooms were full of extremely skilled players who memorized all 200+ tracks I was getting smoked, and playing the vanilla 32 tracks that I do have memorized front and back gets old quickly. I’d chalk this personal issue as a skill problem, as I don’t have the time to memorize difficult tech for 200+ tracks, but yeah the skill ceiling is super high even if you were really good at vanilla. My biggest issue I had with CTGP-R was how content was managed and less about the game itself. For some reason I think around 2020 or 2021 updates slowed to a snail’s pace (I did just check though. It seems the updates do come out a bit faster now, but not as fast as I remember). Around this time is when I began to lose interest and move on to other things. Also what happened to that 24 player beta? I paid for it when it was released some 4 or 5 years ago and it works great offline (never got it working online though. It seems to still only go up to 12, I’m assuming because it pairs me with people who don’t have the beta). But why has it not become part of the official release yet? It’s like they dropped this beta and then forgot about it. I think it would spark a lot more interest in the game especially for new players. Anyways sorry for my tangent. Very informative video. I’d argue that CTGP-R is still the best Mario Kart mod out there (sorry CTGP-DX) but yeah it definitely has some issues.
I've been watching the pack change ever since late 2018 and had a bit of competitive custom track experience from 2019-2021. I recently came back from a 3 year hiatus to learn some of the tracks that I missed out on and to play custom track clan wars with my friends. I have to say that, overall, this pack lost its charm. A lot of the tracks that get in the pack nowadays, although fun to drive once you actually put in the time and effort to learn them, feel very generic and lacking of the charm that the older tracks, which are what got me invested into CTGP-R in the first place, had. And I don't mean peaks, because I hate that track too despite knowing how to do everything in it. There are plenty of other unique older tracks that feel like custom tracks yet are also fair (assuming you took the time to time trial them for 20-30 minutes) and quite fun online. The only real issues with them are the visuals and maybe a few slightly janky things that some of them had. What saddens me and a lot of the older/former CTGP-R players is that a lot of those perfectly fine older tracks are being updated with versions that don't really bring anything new to the table (this is the case with some of the retroes specifically), or are straight up replaced with newer, visually appealing tracks that unfortunately just aren't as fun to play online, especially in a competitive setting. They're too long and/or too boring and forgettable and/or too complicated/tech-heavy (to the point where it feels like I'm always competing against the track rather than the other players despite how much practice I put into them) and/or they just give terrible races due to a combination of the track layout itself, the strats and shortcuts involved, and item box placements. Of course, there are older tracks that deserved to go (because they have the issues that I just listed + more) and newer tracks that are actually really good and add value to the pack, but the general consensus between me, some of my friends, and a lot of the older players is that the pack just isn't as good as it used to be. Also, the frequent updates kind of devalues each track that gets in in my opinion. All that being said, there are people who've been around as long as I have or longer who think that the pack has actually gotten better over time, and I very much respect their opinion. But yea, this is just my insight into the problems of modern day CTGP-R as someone who can almost be considered a veteran.
This is the type of opinion that a lot of people seem to dismiss but I tried my best to keep it in mind. I definitely understand that these types of tracks have their audiences and want to be mindful of that
@@OlmiOP You're welcome, man. I'm currently a bit occupied with my bachelor in electrical engineering, but once a new Mario Kart hits, you better believe I'll be back on the track. :) Until then... tata my friend. ^^
@@IgelWH My man! I really miss playing against you and looking forward to future sessions. Hopefully the gang will be around for many years to come. :)
I feel like a way to resolve the issue is to have 2 packs. Ctgp r for more casual people as it the “main” ct pack. I think it could have lots of retros and constantly update adding new tracks for more casual players. Removing tracks like peaks, 6 king and incendia could really make new people want to play and not drive others away. I think having more than 218 tracks would be better(maybe 300) so that there is more variety. Then a pack like ctgp classic. This would rarely update and have lots of old, iconic tracks that veterans have spent many hours learning. This could keep casual and competitive people happy and allow content creators to have a choice at what they want. Tracks like peaks, rezway 2 and 6 king would probably be better here. I think some tracks may be good in both packs(glimmer express trains, lunar lights etc) but it could help separate the 2 main audiences so they aren’t clashing with each other. I think ctgp r would still probably need more fixes. I think the update pattern is quite bad. Sometimes they’ll do it 3 months in a row and sometimes they’ll be half a year gaps. I also think they’re rejecting many tracks that would be great because they’re not perfect even though tracks in ctgp aren’t always perfect. This is why 300 tracks may be better as they have less pressure to make tracks absolutely perfect. And if a track is generally unpopular, they can remove it quickly. With the track inconsistencies and slow and smaller updates, I have played ctgp a lot less than I used to. Now I go for other packs like Mario kart midnight and optpack. I feel like if they split the 2 main audiences and updated the game with fresh new tracks on a more regular and consistent schedule, everyone would be happy. At the moment however, veterans are constantly having to learn new tracks and are losing ones they’re good at and new players are being bombarded with difficult tracks and a competitive community they can’t win in. This is also not meant to hate on bean or the track council. I think they are doing a great job in trying to make everyone happy. I just think it stuff doesn’t change, people will move on to other packs instead.
i used to avidly play ctgp, and i can confirm that the difficulty curve is way too much. it took me at least a YEAR to become decent at most of the tracks, and even then you still will have tracks that you aren't good at and hate playing. and if you take a break from the game, you come back to find that there are many new tracks that are long and filled with tech, each taking hours, sometimes even days to learn. it's really a terrible mode for casuals, but can be really fun and rewarding for veterans looking for an extra challenge and have the time and skill to master the tracks, but those people are very few and far between. it's also kinda annoying how it monopolized the ct pack world and became a requirement, with every form of competitive (tts and online) highly recommending or flat out requiring ctgp. i get that a one stop shop for competitive is good for integrity, but i also feel like it forced people to download something they may not be fully interested in (as some players ONLY got it for comp but still exclusively play regs), and also made it seem like the ONLY ct pack you would need. it feels like we've outgrown ctgp, and other packs are taking over. of course people will obviously use ctgp for tts and competitive, but it has lost it's original purpose as a ct pack.
As someone who has been playing ctgp on/off for around 6-7 years, all of your points are valid and correct, but addressing them would result in an almost completely different modpack. I think the real solution is just a straight-up remake of the pack, with a new focus on being more modern and approachable, while still having the old pack as an option. Could even finally add in custom music for each track with the remake, which is a pretty new development and something I always wanted in ctgp.
Nice vid mate , I'm a pretty old player, but I gave up custom track WWs because I couldn't handle having to learn so many tracks, when a lot of them get rotated. Considering Retro Rewind though, because of some of the reasons you said. Skills transfer. It's not learning specific tricks all the time
*Me, a veteran of Mario Kart & my opinions:* 3:29 I agree that some tracks are too long. I'm hopeful for the future that we will get more variety. 4:08 I don't agree with this one. There are a lot of tracks & there is some difficulty in some but if you play a lot, you'll get better. 4:56 Yea that's true, I'm not sure if it's possible but contacting creators & regular updates of them would solve this issue. 5:26 Like problem 1, it's something they could improve in but I don't mind having different types of custom tracks together though. 6:10 Nobody is perfect & I personally think creators of videos reviewing tracks should use positive feedback instead of negative. If you are completely negative towards a person, it'll hurt them more than if you are also positive about other stuff they've done. Of course, reacting with a long comment is maybe not the best but at least he reacted to give the creator of the video feedback. I am a big fan of Mushroom Peaks and I personally would be very happy if it would stay forever. I don't care if it's the longest or hardest track of CTGP, if someone says CTGP, you know the first track that's coming to mind is Mushroom Peaks. It's that iconic. I'm pretty sure that if it would get more than 60% removal votes it would get removed but it would be the end of an era.
My main issue is the fact that there is zero custom music. If you look at mario kart wii deluxe, that has a bunch of custom tracks, custom music and many retro coruses are well made. Another one is that you NEED a wii and copy of mkwii. Other ctgp's dont require this. Wii hardware is gonna die eventually.
@@Equalizer2922 custom music isn't really an issue for me because I like modding in my own music (in fact all the songs used in the video are part of a pack I made myself) but I do understand this
The issue with custom music is that the track devs would all have to go back and choose a song, or else like half the tracks will still just be default; and the main issue would be the file size of all the music.
There is a way to customize the music, but I wish it was a natural feature of the mod and didn't require so many convoluted steps to do. It was hard enough to finally get my Wii actually homebrewed.
Precise shortcuts to win and needing tech to win is something I really, REALLY want to avoid as a new track creator, bc I'm not good at that stuff myself, and I want to be able to play my tracks with my family as well. It just makes it unfun UNLESS the track is built around that and for a challenge and not online. Also about the too long tracks, thats kinda funny to me because my first track is the OPPISITE of that, its maybe a little too short. I haven't released it yet but I probably should do that.
Given that Mushroom Peaks is the most popular track, it is even more problematic that it is the most hated track.. It should have been removed long ago imo. I agree with all of your points, and I fully agree with the philosophy that tracks should be easy to drive for beginners but have more advanced strats for more experienced players. I have created several tracks in the pack myself, and I have always tried to design them with that in mind, and will continue to do so in the future
The issue with Peaks is that Mr. Bean takes a bit too much pride in his tracks to the point where you can't remakes his tracks at all so don't even bother asking. Peaks has already been remade as "Mushroom Mountain" which fixes a lot of the issues with Peaks, but since it wasn't done by bean himself it'll never be put in the pack let alone replace Peaks. I get it, hearing people bash on your track and say "this person made the track so much better" will hurt, but letting Peaks get replaced by Mushroom Mountain solves the current track's complaints and leaves his original work technically untouched, letting him be able to put Peaks back in whenever he can fix the layout in the way he wants it fixed.
I feel like a lot of the issues would still be around if Mushroom Mountain was the option chosen, though obviously less bad Like I said though, the problem goes far beyond Peaks
I don't typically make MKW content so a lot of my usual viewers actually need the context but for practicality purposes I figured I'd put the timestamp :)
Okay, I'm not a modder or anything, but I find "too much track variety" when there's only two or three categories a strange problem. See, as a casual player, I actually like both classic courses (and course remakes) as well as brand new courses made by the modders; the courses I DON'T like are those that are either specifically catered to pro players that know and use all the exploits perfectly (e.g. you HAVE to be a really good player that ALWAYS uses Funky Kong on the Bowser Bike/Flame Runner JUST to make this specific turn on a regular part of the course (i.e. NOT A SHORTCUT)), or just general jank that looks like it's being made by a novice... and sometimes it's BOTH, like with Mushroom Peaks (and not just because it actually IS the first public modded course or anything, the whole straight lines and 90 degree turns and random out-of-place elements like the jumbotron makes it look very amateurish). While it's true that classic course remakes don't really have this issue, I think it's a bit weird to lump ALL brand new, modder-created courses in a single category like that and assume that only pro players can enjoy those, when really, this is more of a specific subcategory; I'm pretty sure there's custom courses out there that are more beginner-friendly and feel like they belong in an actual Mario Kart alongside the official courses. At least, this seems to be the case in the MK8(D) modding community...
@@ArendAlphaEagle the track variety itself isn't a problem. I just wanted to drop that in to feed into the later point of not knowing who the target audience actually is. You can absolutely have this type of track variety and make it work, but the execution has problems
Idk how difficult it would be to add, but i think it would be a cool idea to allow each player to ban like 3 tracks from being picked in worldwides. I understand it could be annoying to not be able to choose a track you want because someone randomly decided to ban it, and im sure the pros would hate it because a lot of the advanced tracks would be banned by newer players, but it would force people to choose something unique instead of the same tracks over and over to gain easy VR. It would also probably be a useful statistic to see which tracks are the most disliked by the community. I HIGHLY doubt this would ever be added tho
An interesting idea, but I feel like that would cause a lot more problems than it would solve tbh. Sounds like a coding nightmare, and with a lobby of 12 players you can have a total of 36 tracks banned, which is a lot
Had a feeling you'd be a fan of this one, I remember watching your video on the subject years ago and being blown away at how things have been. It's gotten a lot better in recent years, but still was worth bringing up
@@Treasuryholder6 Yes, I'm the guy who talked about the obvious biases of custom track creators and how they bullied an outsider for not liking a custom track among other things.
as a competitive player of around 5ish years, i do understand where a lot of these sentiments come from especially regarding peaks / hard tracks but I really do feel like expecting tracks to not require trial and error is not fair. the mushroom section on peaks especially can be learned relatively quickly if you take the time, its a awful track yes but some of the other hard tracks have been my favorites for years. i do think stubbornness / unwillingness to learn also has a hand in why certain tracks are disliked over others, i mean this all with respect as i get it, just how i generally feel when this topic is brought up, good video 🤝
Fair enough. This IS a game that has a lot of history and tech behind it, so I understand the sentiment I just think all types of players should be taken into account and, like I said in the video, this seems to be done in a way that leaves all sides frustrated
"I really do feel like expecting tracks to not require trial and error is not fair." It's also not fair to gate simply _completing_ the track in a reasonable amount of time behind trial and error. Take a look at some of the better-designed official Nintendo tracks in MKWii. A lot of these have difficult shortcuts that, even if you know what to do, still take trial and error to actually be able to do them consistently. But these tracks don't _force_ you to take those routes (like Mushroom Peaks does), those difficult shortcuts aren't instant "I win" buttons either (like on Delphino Island), and the punishment for failing them isn't "lol softlocked" (like Mushroom Peaks again). I'm not saying that tracks that force you to use master advanced tech or learn extremely precise lines just to be able to complete them reasonably shouldn't exist, but they should be in their own "expert" packs, not in a generalist pack like CTGP-R. Basically: Trial and error for getting fast times is fair. Trial and error for _just simply finishing the course within the cutoff after first finishes_ is not.
The problem's the fact that I DIDN'T know this, and it feels like REQUIRED knowledge I also have heard the term tf input before but never actually figured out what the tf input *is* (but that one's on me lmao)
But it certainly has a lot of issues aside from a community that tried to appeal to everyone (not a bad thing, but it can cause some issues), among other things.
@@silverstar6589 Not denying that, and that's why I wanted to show it, to give some more context to it all. I just don't think taking a side based off that alone is healthy, is all
@@SeaSlug You'd have a hard time actually finding rooms with more than 3 players because both room types are going to split the already limited playerbase (there's been times where there's literally only 1 room active with 5 players at most, that problem would get way worse
mkw in general is dying. Even rr not pulling the same numbers like it used to. It's just RR is the most accessible, and old players are leaving faster than new players replacing them
@@MkwRa Just like a lot of people have already quit BECAUSE of Mushroom Peaks being in the game I literally know people that would've come back if Peaks got removed but now they won't because it's still in It goes both ways y'know
Ctgp is probably the most revolutionary and important thing ever created besides wiimfi, but now it kinda sucks and isn’t useful anymore. Like I downloaded and the tracks look so bare and empty. Retro rewind is just so much better in every way, it makes ctgp just useless…to me
7:18 you really had to throw in the "trans rights are human rights" ? It factually is not a human right by any country's definition, you cannot force me to believe gender can be changed around like Lego pieces, that doesn't make me evil or a threat to your rights, just means I don't agree and don't have to, rights cannot violate another's rights, that makes it no longer a right if only specific people are given it, this is a mario kart wii video, please stop finding an excuse to make it about "trans rights"
I haven't seen the video yet but hidden shortcut (often shroomless) where you need to watch expert ghost multiple times are awful (like this one even if it is not that bad because you can actually see it when you toss yourself in water ua-cam.com/video/V5TFQnylDe8/v-deo.htmlsi=DTPF5kYNB9hdXLaH&t=30 ) like you launch ctgp after 1 or more year go online and see 5 funky kong making an absurd cut in nowhere on the minimap This and/or maps that feel like using a kart, an outside drift bike or even Torpedo is a crime And yeah using a kart online instantly results in very kind players choosing a mushroom track, most likely doing peaks/kinoko/peaks/kinoko... even if they're bad at them
Hey y’all, I’m the guy who said I’m quitting CTGP in the stream clip included in this video and I wanted to include a little more context since I think it helps make a point Olmi *partially* forgot to cover in this video.
The clip played right after Olmi talked about beginners quitting, but I’m not actually new to the game at all, I’ve actively considered mkwii to be one of if not my favourite game of all time since it came out, and I’ve played it somewhat often for all those years including streaming it weekly for the past 3 years…
…But I still cannot almost ever complete even one lap of Mushroom Peaks without falling off the long mushroom section. Why? Because no other track in the entirety of mkwii, even in CTGP, will give you the knowledge or specific skillset that is *mandatory to merely survive* playing Mushroom Peaks. The track is designed so that you either know *exactly* where to land on every single mushroom (because where you land on them matters in mkwii) or you just die. It’s a knowledge check that does not care how many years you have been playing the game as a whole because that all that other experience with any of the other tracks Does Not Matter. I don’t think it’s just me who feels like this kind of design philosophy goes beyond being unappealing to JUST beginners.
My decision to quit came after multiple years of holding out hope that something would actually be done about this and other tracks mentioned in this video but, like Olmi mentioned, the track removal voting process has only gotten more frustrating as they refuse to even include the tracks I actually want gone in the voting pool, and the last time peaks WAS included, it had a (iirc) 53% removal vote which was clearly outright ignored saying as it’s still here. I think the pack overall has done wonders for expanding the mkwii community and keeping the game alive, but this subset of tracks that genuinely feel like they’re being protected by the higher-ups, despite being so questionable in quality, began to muddy my experience streaming the game every week due to how often they tend to get picked for whatever reason (like Olmi said, this likely DOES include people just picking them to troll the lobby) to the point I’ve simply had to step away from the pack entirely until at the very least most things mentioned by Olmi in this video are actually addressed.
Well said, definitely worth mentioning the people that have been playing for a while but got fed up and quit. Straight up oversight on my part
would be cool if other custom packs got a comp scene, but it's very hard to get comp players to change.
@@Sizzyl Retro Rewind would be sick in that regard. Either that or Mario Kart Wii Deluxe. Both are great packs that also have Dolphin support, making the barrier for entry in 2024 so much easier.
in the most recent poll, peaks had the worst keep/remove ratio of any track in CTGP. so basically, it fails to appeal to any demographic of players compared to any other track in CTGP. there is quite literally zero justification or reason to keep it anymore other than nostalgia (or, dare I say, narcissism)
@@jclkaytwo The fact that it is the most played track of the pack by a landslide is the reasoning from what I understand. Bean doesn't wanna remove tracks THAT popular
I don't necessarily agree with that mindset, since like I said, some people do it for easy VR or for trolling, but I do understand it to some degree
3:29 100% agree
4:08 Definitely true but I don't see that changing anytime soon
4:56 Yep
9:37 There's been no focus toward the new player experience. I've tried offering solutions to this like an easier alternative CTWW mode removing half the tracks with 150cc only. This would give new players a chance and bring activity to worldwides again (hopefully).
It's been the same problems keeping the mod from getting more active players for years now unfortunately. Luckily there are many other CT distributions available nowadays helping keep the game alive
Wait I haven't heard of the easier alternative CTWW mode Idea, I like that a lot actually
But yea I'm very glad that other distributions are keeping the game alive, this game's so cool :)
@@OlmiOP we do have active plans to add this (preferably the next large feature) its just taking forever cause of bean dev time which sucks
Do any other distributions have a lan mode mod? I've been gathering copy's of mkw and wiis to one day have a mkw lan party
troy ctgp is going to die and we know it if bean doesnt actually do anything which he hasnt for the state of the game for over 3 years now its safe to say once comp dies in this game only retro rewind will survive and keep this game rolling
@@SeaSlug There’s a standalone release for LAN multiplayer but I’m not aware of any distributions that include it the way CTGP does
You were right to correct yourself when you said Mushroom Peaks was the first every custom track, as it was not. But it also was not the first original design. To my knowledge, if we exclude Test Circle, that would be Lava Canyon (still by MrBean and Chadderz though)! Peaks being the first track is misinformation that was likely started to make it seem more integral to staying in CTGP than it really is. It's still a very early track and was still revolutionary for its time, but yeah not the first.
I've been saying this about the target audience for years, and I've mentioned this to members of the track council too. They're trying to appeal to everyone, but in turn are appealing to very little people. CTWW is so much less popular than it used to be, and it's no surprise why. Everyone's playing Retro Rewind nowadays, partially because it's more accessible with emulators, but at least for me I'd rather play only retro tracks than have a chance of running into Mushroom Peaks or an arbritarily long track, even though I generally prefer original designs.
I think Mushroom Peaks is very representitive of the problem which is why it's such a scapegoat, and genuinely for me if it was removed I'd probably be more willing to play CTGP. At least that's how I felt a few years ago. Nowdays, other packs interest me a lot more.
Speaking of Council, they really are trying. They're always trying to get more casual, non comp players on board. And a lot of them fully agree that Peaks should be gone (from what I hear), but they're simply not allowed because Bean has the final say. And Bean doesn't value "unpopularity" seemingly at all, only seeming to really care about the amount of times it gets picked online which is flawed for so many reasons imo. I used to have a lot of issues with council, but they've gotten so much better with how they treat authors and the higher ups are genuinely great people. I don't have any issues with Bean either, just how he runs CTGP. Hi Bean if you see this, sorry I'm always being mean to your pack!
Yeah, I don't have the full historical context, so my bad on thinking it was the first. But at least I knew it was an early one!
Peaks being representative of the problem and being picked as often as it is just makes it super easy for it to be the scapegoat. One thing I didn't mention but should have is that 4 out of 5 CTGP sessions I do take me to Mushroom Peaks at least once (I only play the game for Sunday sessions) which amplifies the problem way more than what it really should be
@@OlmiOP For sure! And like, there's so many hypothetical changes that could have come about years ago. Like reducing the lap count, blocking it from CTWW, putting in a secret track slot (since CTGP has 2 already). For the last 3+ years I've been told of this hypothetical Peaks update that will fix everything but "concepts of a plan" aren't enough to get people to unquit sadly ):
@@MayroSMM I'm still surprised that Peaks isn't a secret track. If it's gonna be on the pack then it makes sense to be there
So many ways, but so many complications...
@MayroSMM True
Mushroom Peaks seems like a troll track to me.
Very good video, Olmi! Glad I could help out! Although Bean & I patched things up with the peaks stuff two years ago, it still baffles me that obvious quality control problems still exist.
It is very good to see y'all patched things up, and thank you again for the help :)
You also have this mindset where only Wii consoles can play. I want to play on Dolphin so let me. If you're worried about cheaters you already have an anti cheat system in place so I think this is quite stupid
@@TheVideoGameReject The way this is worded makes it look like it's directed at Mankalor which would make 0 sense tbh
I don't necessarily think the mindset is terrible to have but there's def gonna be a lot of downsides to it
@@OlmiOP mb it's directed at Mr Bean but yes I am quite unhappy about it
it doesnt matter much, but karting is an abject nightmare in CTs
shrooms and constant flip ramps and blind 90 degree turns makes the tracks monolithic knowledge checks.
not all tracks NEED to be easily driven by all vehicles but i genuinely was so done with mile long straight aways that caused a 6 second time-loss because i had the gaul to have 4 wheels.
some tracks are even favoured to karts, but those are few and far between.
That's less of a problem now a days compared to what it used to be, since the amount of amazing tracks now far beats the bad, but the frequency of people picking the bad tracks makes it seem a lot worse than it actually is
Some rando out there is probably going to say "skill issue," but when I played the official tracks, I found myself almost never needing to look at the minimap to see where I was going.
@@AkameGaKillfan777 That is definitely something that CTs struggle with more, since they’re done by independent people there’s a lot less playtesting to perfect everything then nintendo does they tend to be a lot more confusing. Readability is a very important aspect to track design but it’s quite a difficult one to master, as a track creator myself I know from experience
FYI *gall
Gaul is like, north-central Western Europe
to everyone who sees this: CTGP is now holding a poll regarding the fate of mushroom peaks and whether it should stay or be removed. this is our chance. vote and spread the word!
@@jclkaytwo already voted myself!
@@OlmiOP let's freaking go
i see a poll like this every year and nothing happens 😭
@@noahcheng1895 wdym? this was the first (and probably only poll) concerning the fate of mushroom peaks
@@jclkaytwo this one is specifically for mushroom peaks, but i was talking about the track polls i see on discord sometimes so MB
The community management is straight up poo poo. Releasing a 24 player beta, then not releasing it fully after 4 years is insane. Lack of updates and interesting ideas keep me off CTGP-R.
Understandable really. I've learned after posting this video some of the reasons community management is like this, but I'm not about to argue you really
I actually looked into a video by a UA-camr named Ket because of your reply, and I think I’m starting to understand what you mean. And it seems like the community, aside from other issues, is a bit held back from change. This is evident in track variety, and the people who deny removals or changes to tracks that need to be fixed. I think that’s what holds it back for me I guess. New track packs have interesting systems and ideas. The CTGP Team seems to be at a “You can’t fix what ain’t broke” mindset, and because they are extremely fond of what they’ve built, they don’t necessarily see the cracks, or see a reason to make it stronger. I also found out that BEAN is the one managing these updates by himself. I think in a way, that’s great, giving him full and total control of the project. Making updates is long and tedious. Though I think he should get a team of people to help, while still following MrBeans criteria. Had that been done we would’ve gotten something timeless. (Oh yeah btw great video)
@@PTRaisin Bean may be the head of the pack and his say is final, but he's not the only one working on CTGP! I recently got reached out to by someone that works in the council, explaining a lot more of the situation and why things are the way they are, as well as some misconceptions. They'd leave a comment, but UA-cam seemed to have shadow banned them somehow?
@@OlmiOP interesting. Thanks for the info!
A few weeks ago I came to the conclusion that CTGP is getting the worst of all sides - trying to appeal to too many different playerbases (newcomers, casual worldwide players, time trialers, and competitive players) and as a result are appealing to none of them. This video does a pretty good job at explaining this! I agree with most of the points however disagree with a few simply because (like you said at the beginning) you lack some additional context. Overall your conclusion is the same so that’s all that matters! As a TASer, it’s difficult to have a voice about CTGP since I’m not at all involved in the RTA scene but I really hope to see it improve to the point that it can thrive again!
CTGP admin/competitive player here for the last 3 years or so, just gonna spitball address the 5 issues.
1. Too long tracks- I actually generally disagree with this. I appreciate you acknowledging it's very subjective, and I while I definitely recognize there are some that feel too long it's usually from the tracks being boring. Take GCN Rainbow Road, I find it pretty funny but I understand that for most people it's just incredibly boring. WR is 3:36 or something pre-kart cut and only really has 1 interesting part (the end cut and spiral). So when you drive the rest of the track, it just feels very boring and monotonous. Whereas something like desert fort (which you brought up) and honeybee hideout, along with castle of time all have really interesting driving for the majority of it. You bring up an interesting point with rBC being the longest track in Wii, which is true but I like to see it in a different context. WR on that is 4:19 iirc. Obviously it's for a different platform, but I don't find it entirely unprecedented to have there be long tracks as they can provide interest if the inherent track is good.
2. Required tech- Just elaborating on this now as well since I know it's brought up later, there is more to tech than just some series of inputs that let you take a shortcut. It can also be just specific driving methods that work really well in niche scenarios. That's one of the reasons why the CTGP version of 3ds RR has held up for so long, there is genuinely so much tech in the driving here and there. If you go pull up Ivan's world record video on it and just watch the driving, you'll notice there are times he'll wheelie off ramps instead of trick, avoid tricking at all to go tight (like on the spiral), go off the edge of ramps to get lower air, cancel his wheelie to land on the right part of the moon, hoptrick to force a trick off the moon, clip the very side of a ramp to get a low, etc etc etc. To a casual perspective I can totally understand how perceiving these seem almost impossible, but it's one of those things that when you get better at the game, you can start to appreciate it much more. I would highly, highly recommend watching Sawyer's BKT on glimmer express trains to see an amazing example of tech and driving, probably one of the best CT WRs on a tech track ever and a lot of it is easy to notice if you pay attention even for a casual. The question is really where is the line drawn between tech that is fun and tech that is bad. I actually love to drive peaks and really do enjoy the tech on the track, but I think we can all agree here that the tech being required on the track is one of the most prominent issues in the community and we'll get into that more later.
3. Too Jank- I can agree with this in large part, but feel like this just overlaps with your second point about required tech which I would just extend to required knowledge. Pipe underworld L1 route falling down, Incendia L1 path falling, etc. I've even volunteered to help out over time with those (I made the update to infernal pipeyard getting in next update, have started the mushroom peaks remake as well) so I fully do back the idea that there are tracks that could do amazing with just some minor changes and visual overhauls. I get that delfino island might seem a bit weird, but it's really just a wheelie off the ramp. And if you're not comfortable, the around route was buffed to only lose 1.5 seconds or so which is akin to doing the dock shortcut on delfino square. Don't get me wrong we still have some other ones not addressed here (like paths on SKL) but point is I agree and think we are getting better largely.
4. Too many tracks- I like the argument you made here about the variety being an issue, and I do agree that overall the pack is split. The thing is, I genuinely don't see a way to make a good pack at this point. The main reason retro rewind is doing so well is due to lack of NAND. This means people don't have to own a game or console to play, they just download the game of the internet, boot up dolphin on their PC, and bam they can play with troy and everyone else in their rooms. CTGP doesn't have that because Bean refuses to add it (for very understandable legal reasons), so we're inherently dealing with a limited playerbase. CTWWs are dead, and we don't have a lot of players anymore. If we decide to go full casual, comp will die and we won't have enough players anymore to play online. If we go full comp, that could in theory work as they don't really CTWW but we'd be dealing with an incredibly stagnant pack and trust me comp is a cynical bitch. While I agree that there is a problem especially with certain tracks appealing to only one audience (Melting to comp for example, and Toad's Temple for casuals), we're not really in a position where we have the ability to change that.
5. Community Management- Before we really dive into this, I want to really give an idea for what we as admins and council have control over. We do homework on tracks submitted to the pack, vote on them, and then accept/reject based on votes. We also run community threads for authors to try and help them get feedback on their work to varying degrees of success. We also run tests to try and prevent the tracks from being broken when they get added. That's about it though. Things like removing mushroom peaks or removing tracks in the top 50 popularity at all are explicitly forbidden by Bean, and we have to convince him to remove those which believe me with tracks like peaks we have tried. I've successfully helped remove ASDF course and made the paper to remove GP mario beach, but again we're talking hours and hours of work just to try to convince Bean to remove a track he really doesn't care about. A track like peaks is incredibly important to him, it's a track he made with his sibling in the primes of their lives, staying up late drinking soda and eating pizza or whatever and just having time together. This is all speculation, but I would argue that's one of the large reasons even if he can't admit it to himself that he doesn't want it gone, and being honest I understand that totally. You'll hear arguments about popularity and whatever about why it should stay, but being as candid as I can I don't think anyone really deep down believes peaks is healthy for the pack. None of this is to slander bean in any way, in fact I empathize a lot with the sort of sacrifice and time he has put to getting the community to where it is now, but it's clearly time for him to let go of that past and focus on a new direction for the game in the path that peaks lead all the way back in 2009 nearly 15 years ago.
Also minor fact correction, removal polls never had all the tracks on them. We put up surveys every 6 months to track how well tracks are liked (the figure you cited) but the removal polls are different. I'd be happy to share all the removal results with you as well if you want to see them, but mushroom peaks has never been on a removal poll nor have a majority of tracks been on a removal poll. We specifically target low popularity tracks and low rating tracks for removal. In fact 2 updates ago Incendia Castle was on the list and wasn't voted out for removal somehow.
I'd be fine to talk about this and get more into the details with you as well in a call at some point as there is a lot I'm not going into for the sake of brevity (acting as if this is brief), lmk if you're interested. I'm rocksaltwa on discord. Have a nice evening
Co signed ✍️
@@echomkw I actually recently got reached out to by jc, giving me a lot of similar information and opinions, but honestly it's very interesting to see this perspective
I've said this before, but while I understand where Bean is coming from, it is still the wrong move to keep peaks it around if you ask me. Top 50 popularity can come from a lot of people trolling or for easy VR gains as well, not just people who like it
Not really much else I can add to most of it but I am intrigued on seeing the rest of the polls
tbh i see comp going to another pack with anti cheat to limit cheaters honestly like retro rewind once it gets anti cheat and the tracks get completely polished
I remember a few years ago I watched one of my favourite streamers, Fuzzyness, get into mkw through CTGP. He seemed to really enjoy playing the game until Peaks was picked. He ended up giving up without completing even a lap and I haven‘t seen him play the game since.
I can‘t help but wonder how many other players had this exact experience with the game.
Even those that push past it the one time are bound to see it more and more, and eventually reach their breaking point, like my friend did
Great video! I have a lot of sympathy for critiques of CTGP like this, and these started getting on my nerves a lot as well when I still played that pack. For me the breaking point was when they removed Envenom Snowstorm from the pack (although of course there were some other questionable track removals/additions leading up to that too). Beautiful track, very easy to learn, no mandatory kaizo-esque tech, and a perfectly acceptable length that made it a good romp for both new and experienced players. And it got replaced by Darkness Temple, which suffers from every single flaw listed in this video.
One thing not mentioned in the videos but mentioned in the comments, 24 racers still requiring a twitch sub to Mr Bean is horrendous. Its been 5 years at this point.
Honestly wasn't considering 24 player since that's definitely a more Wacky and Silly mode in comparison but you're absolutely right
I haven't played CTGP in a while, but I still diatinctly remember a lot of track design problems. Bouncing mushrooms not being placed well/too many of them in a row, tracks being too long, tracks being too complicated both for players and CPUs, and a *lot* of sudden turns being placed too closely to the landing off of a ramp making it impossible to make the turn unless you have an inside drifting bike or position yourself weirdly prior to going off the ramp.
That problem's definitely a lot less bad now compared to what it used to be, but there's still examples of it
Thanks for the straight to the point timestamp. A lot of youtube videos could learn from that.
I don't typically make Mario Kart content on my UA-cam so I had to give a bit of an intro to CTGP for those unaware, but those who are aware could skip it and go straight to the point :)
I my self had enough of ctgp r where it constantly removes the good and interesting tracks and you mentioned most tracks are way too long janky (peaks example) and that they Rather go for quantity then quality with 24player still locked behind a paywall is disgusting something that should have been finished by now sure its impressive but still disgusting and as a mod he is the worse the guy thearten me to be perm ban for first offense its honestly sad he rather listens to hi wiener then his gud and thinks first before taking actions i moved on to other Mario Kart Games and non mk games i feel in a much better place as time goes on in my opinion Ctgp will slowly die and it makes more sense to use Ctgp classic since it kind of cares more about quality then quantity with actual improved features
Y'know, I totally forgot about the 24 player situation. Would've included a mention if I remembered
Understandable frustrations really
He should be grateful that Nintendo doesn't care(or most likely hasn't noticed) about needing to pay money for 24 player races on Wii. I can almost guarantee if he tried doing that for 8 Deluxe, they would've sent a Cease and Desist order without hesitation.
I just hate how they don’t add new features anymore. The fact that 24 player multiplayer is still in beta is fucking bullshit. It’s been around for like four fucking years. Not to mention, the guy is an asshole because he won’t put the game on dolphin and he has anti-piracy measures to make sure that people won’t run it on dolphin because God forbid people pirate a 20 year old game just to experience a mod.
Genuinely I feel like the issues are a lot worse then they otherwise would be had CTGP not been the _only_ distribution most new players flock too, as least for most of the games life. I don’t even have an issue for a CT distribution to have a sort of monopoly on paper, but that distribution needs to live up to that for it to work. As it is now I think a lot of people play CTGP, play the outdated tracks over and over and write off CTs as a whole. It’s honestly kinda upsetting seeing people say things like “90% of custom tracks are garbage” and I feel like a lot of that stems from people not having a good first impression of CTGP and thinking that that’s a summary of custom tracks as a whole, because there are far more amazing tracks that stand toe to toe with Nintendo’s nowadays that a lot of people won’t see.
Genuinely I feel like the custom track community would be at its best if CTGP (or whatever the first pack most people play is) was an entry into the greater custom track community rather then having almost a monopoly. Retro Rewind getting popular is a start but it doesn’t fix the problem since retros don’t really introduce a gateway to all the original designs, but eh.
My only idea for a solution to this is to make the introductory pack only have highly polished, beginner freindly tracks? Like, The Grand Archives is a perfect example of it like you said, even though it has difficult strats it’s not hard for a newcomer to play it and know where to go from the start.
To be honest I don’t really know what I’m saying any more and I haven’t even played CTGP, it just doesn’t appeal to me, just spitballing all my personal problems with it. Great video btw
Yea CTGP's Problems taint a lot of newcomers' perspective on CTs as a whole and it's honestly sad
Hi, competitive CT player here. I've been playing CTGP on and off for about 7 years, though I've been playing more consistently in the last year.
First of all I just want to say I appreciate you making this video. A fresh perspective of the mod from a newer casual player like yourself is much needed. There have been other videos that have been made talking about the state of the pack, but most of these types of videos come from people who have been in the community for years. But getting to the point of the video, a lot of people from the competitive scene are also unhappy with the pack's tracklist (albeit for different reasons) and it really begs the question you asked of who CTGP is trying to appeal to. I think the pack evolved into what it is today because CTs were more of a novelty back when this pack was in its infancy, and people were just excited to play something that wasn't vanilla Mario Kart Wii. CTs have a lot to offer for this game because (in an ideal world) they bring the chaos of Mario Kart together with the phethora of jank tech unique to Mario Kart Wii. That charm and novelty is long gone though, and while the track council works their asses off to help CTGP reach its potential, we've sadly still found ourselves where we are today. Your complaints about track length and the issues with advanced strats being knowledge checks are understandable, but I would say there are only ~100 CTs that would fall into this category (it mostly seems worse than it actually is because as you said people pick those types of tracks to win, but even still that's almost if not half of the pack). I actually like the strat heavy tracks because they bring a lot to the table in terms of learning how the game works in addition to being very rewarding to learn and even moreso to execute in a race (though I realize that sentiment is likely only present with competitive players), but I also understand that's not a popular opinion. Track length is something that has a lot more mixed opinions because I've talked to some of my friends who I play CTWWs with casually (they're not competitive players) and they seem to enjoy the longer tracks, whereas other people love to say that a handful of the tracks in the pack should be 2 laps. I think the sweet spot for track length is between 2:00 and about 3:15-3:30, anything longer is pushing it. I'm not going to claim that I know where the pack needs to go from here or that my ideas would make the pack better, but I do agree that something needs to be done. I'm particularly bummed about how dead the competitive scene is because as I've stated the current tracklist is very polarizing and leaves much to be desired. Just for a small insight, competitive CT players who play Mogi Lounge (Mario Kart's ranked competitive ladder, if you're familiar with that) were having to play in all division rooms where people of all skill levels had to play together because there were too few players. As far as the changes I'd want, I would really like to see a mixture of iconic older tracks with a fresh coat of paint make a comeback as well as newer designs that are casual friendly but still have depth for strategies and tech (Fort Francis is a great example of this), or even just tracks that are simple and don't need all the fancy strats to be good like Garden of Dreams. Above all of that though, I'd really like to see some new code features as those have played a huge role in Retro Rewind's success. I just want to see CTGP see that same success because it has a lot of potential.
Again, thank you for making this video :)
Totally reasonable opinions to have, both the ones that agree and the ones that differ. I'm happy with CTGP overall but there's a lot that could be improved, and I'm glad to be able to share my stance and have it actually be meaningful :)
I certainly agree that the main issue with CTGP-R nowadays is the difficulty to appeal to both casual/non-competitive players and competitive/long-time players. The good news is this is being addressed and there are plans to hopefully make CTGP-R better appeal to casuals while not ruining it for competitive players.
The CTGP Council consists of mostly players who play competitively or do time trials frequently, and not as many casual CTGP players who mostly just play in CTWWs and fun rooms. Fortunately, the most recent Council applications were only for casual players in hopes that casual players (myself included) have a voice. This will hopefully allow for more tracks being added to CTGP-R being enjoyed by both casual and competitive players. Of course there will be some that only appeal to one side, but hopefully less.
And there are indeed some tracks that were added to CTGP lately that are enjoyed by both sides, such as Fort Francis and Shy Guy Lumber Co. Even Banished Keep is enjoyed by both sides because although there's many cuts and strats, many of them are fairly easy to learn and feel great wehn you finally pull them off, and it's pretty fun to drive in general and has a nice scenery.
Some tracks in the pack are indeed long/boring. Sometimes they are fixed or removed but it can be difficult for that to happen especially if they are picked often. They would need to have serious issues that make their precense in CTGP bad (I know Mushroom Peaks counts there but it's especially tough when it's almost always the top picked track). People can pick them to cheese free wins and VR or just for memes. That's unfortunately an issue that extends to tracks beyond Mushroom Peaks.
I do agree that CTGP-R is in a tough position now, especially with other MKWii packs competing now, but I do hope that people are optimistic for the future and that the plans and recent casual voices being added work out for CTGP and attract more new players.
Honestly recent updates have given me a lot of faith for CTGP's future, but the sticking points NEED to be mentioned in order for said progress to go along
But yea recent tracks are a blast! Banished Keep is one of my favorites but I used the shortcut as an example of a bit of a learning curve (though it's done right in this case)
Bro is spittin facts. As someone who's been playing ctgp for a long time, I can agree with what you're saying. But I do enjoying ctgp regardless of tracks being too easy or difficult.
Nothing wrong with enjoying the pack regardless, I still have mostly a good time when playing it :)
People can recognize the faults of something and still like it, afterall!
I think an issue in of itself when talking about the problems of CTGP is people tend to get way too broad and vague about what they're actually talking about. So I'm glad you went into detail while also being thorough. Very good video Olmi ❤
@@Toadeight it's easy to single out Peaks since it encapsulates a lot of the problems with the pack as a whole, but talking about JUST peaks and not looking at the bigger picture is probably the reason why this topic has been as controversial as it is
And thank youuu
I’ve been a Mario Kart Wii CT fan for 3 years now, and I have only played CTGP for one of them. Granted, I’m not the kind of person who plays online, I just like MKW mods for the track selection and how fun they are to play locally. Still, I agree with a few of the points you brought, but my personal biggest issue is the track rotation. Every few months, it just kinda feels like they’re getting rid of a few good and actually fun tracks for others that might be better or worse, while keeping outdated trash like Mushroom Peaks and Six King Labyrinth, and forcing you to get a completely different mod, CTGP Classic, if you wanna play that specific track again. Revolution is fine as an introduction to custom tracks, but there are much better options that I’m playing nowadays such as Mario Kart Wii Deluxe, the Mario Kart Midnight games, and the 4500-track playground Insane Kart Wii. That last option especially is a blast to play with my brothers, the random items option is pure chaos.
mushroom peaks mushroom reeks...
I’ve not played CTGP-R (or heck, MKW) in so long. It’s actually the reason why I got into modding consoles and homebrewing years back. I’ve been too busy playing other racing games recently I guess.
I mostly play against CPUs and splitscreen when I do play. Every once in a while I’d hop online but if the rooms were full of extremely skilled players who memorized all 200+ tracks I was getting smoked, and playing the vanilla 32 tracks that I do have memorized front and back gets old quickly. I’d chalk this personal issue as a skill problem, as I don’t have the time to memorize difficult tech for 200+ tracks, but yeah the skill ceiling is super high even if you were really good at vanilla.
My biggest issue I had with CTGP-R was how content was managed and less about the game itself. For some reason I think around 2020 or 2021 updates slowed to a snail’s pace (I did just check though. It seems the updates do come out a bit faster now, but not as fast as I remember). Around this time is when I began to lose interest and move on to other things. Also what happened to that 24 player beta? I paid for it when it was released some 4 or 5 years ago and it works great offline (never got it working online though. It seems to still only go up to 12, I’m assuming because it pairs me with people who don’t have the beta). But why has it not become part of the official release yet? It’s like they dropped this beta and then forgot about it. I think it would spark a lot more interest in the game especially for new players.
Anyways sorry for my tangent. Very informative video. I’d argue that CTGP-R is still the best Mario Kart mod out there (sorry CTGP-DX) but yeah it definitely has some issues.
I've been watching the pack change ever since late 2018 and had a bit of competitive custom track experience from 2019-2021. I recently came back from a 3 year hiatus to learn some of the tracks that I missed out on and to play custom track clan wars with my friends.
I have to say that, overall, this pack lost its charm. A lot of the tracks that get in the pack nowadays, although fun to drive once you actually put in the time and effort to learn them, feel very generic and lacking of the charm that the older tracks, which are what got me invested into CTGP-R in the first place, had. And I don't mean peaks, because I hate that track too despite knowing how to do everything in it. There are plenty of other unique older tracks that feel like custom tracks yet are also fair (assuming you took the time to time trial them for 20-30 minutes) and quite fun online. The only real issues with them are the visuals and maybe a few slightly janky things that some of them had.
What saddens me and a lot of the older/former CTGP-R players is that a lot of those perfectly fine older tracks are being updated with versions that don't really bring anything new to the table (this is the case with some of the retroes specifically), or are straight up replaced with newer, visually appealing tracks that unfortunately just aren't as fun to play online, especially in a competitive setting. They're too long and/or too boring and forgettable and/or too complicated/tech-heavy (to the point where it feels like I'm always competing against the track rather than the other players despite how much practice I put into them) and/or they just give terrible races due to a combination of the track layout itself, the strats and shortcuts involved, and item box placements. Of course, there are older tracks that deserved to go (because they have the issues that I just listed + more) and newer tracks that are actually really good and add value to the pack, but the general consensus between me, some of my friends, and a lot of the older players is that the pack just isn't as good as it used to be. Also, the frequent updates kind of devalues each track that gets in in my opinion.
All that being said, there are people who've been around as long as I have or longer who think that the pack has actually gotten better over time, and I very much respect their opinion. But yea, this is just my insight into the problems of modern day CTGP-R as someone who can almost be considered a veteran.
This is the type of opinion that a lot of people seem to dismiss but I tried my best to keep it in mind. I definitely understand that these types of tracks have their audiences and want to be mindful of that
so shit peaks is like fucking so much gaps to tsing sucks broken sc for shrooms and fucking 3+ shocks
ps its just adding bs instead of addressing the problems also beans literally done nothing from 2022-now october 2 2024 really its such a shame
Hello Olmi. Good to see you're still going strong and let me just say: Your production value is pretty good. :)
Hi hobbes! It's been a long time since I last heard of you! Thank youuu :) Hope you've been well too!
@@OlmiOP You're welcome, man. I'm currently a bit occupied with my bachelor in electrical engineering, but once a new Mario Kart hits, you better believe I'll be back on the track. :)
Until then... tata my friend. ^^
@@hobbes2234 See you then o7
Yooo!! You're still alive!!!
@@IgelWH My man! I really miss playing against you and looking forward to future sessions. Hopefully the gang will be around for many years to come. :)
I feel like a way to resolve the issue is to have 2 packs. Ctgp r for more casual people as it the “main” ct pack. I think it could have lots of retros and constantly update adding new tracks for more casual players. Removing tracks like peaks, 6 king and incendia could really make new people want to play and not drive others away. I think having more than 218 tracks would be better(maybe 300) so that there is more variety.
Then a pack like ctgp classic. This would rarely update and have lots of old, iconic tracks that veterans have spent many hours learning. This could keep casual and competitive people happy and allow content creators to have a choice at what they want. Tracks like peaks, rezway 2 and 6 king would probably be better here. I think some tracks may be good in both packs(glimmer express trains, lunar lights etc) but it could help separate the 2 main audiences so they aren’t clashing with each other.
I think ctgp r would still probably need more fixes. I think the update pattern is quite bad. Sometimes they’ll do it 3 months in a row and sometimes they’ll be half a year gaps. I also think they’re rejecting many tracks that would be great because they’re not perfect even though tracks in ctgp aren’t always perfect. This is why 300 tracks may be better as they have less pressure to make tracks absolutely perfect. And if a track is generally unpopular, they can remove it quickly.
With the track inconsistencies and slow and smaller updates, I have played ctgp a lot less than I used to. Now I go for other packs like Mario kart midnight and optpack. I feel like if they split the 2 main audiences and updated the game with fresh new tracks on a more regular and consistent schedule, everyone would be happy. At the moment however, veterans are constantly having to learn new tracks and are losing ones they’re good at and new players are being bombarded with difficult tracks and a competitive community they can’t win in.
This is also not meant to hate on bean or the track council. I think they are doing a great job in trying to make everyone happy. I just think it stuff doesn’t change, people will move on to other packs instead.
i used to avidly play ctgp, and i can confirm that the difficulty curve is way too much. it took me at least a YEAR to become decent at most of the tracks, and even then you still will have tracks that you aren't good at and hate playing. and if you take a break from the game, you come back to find that there are many new tracks that are long and filled with tech, each taking hours, sometimes even days to learn. it's really a terrible mode for casuals, but can be really fun and rewarding for veterans looking for an extra challenge and have the time and skill to master the tracks, but those people are very few and far between. it's also kinda annoying how it monopolized the ct pack world and became a requirement, with every form of competitive (tts and online) highly recommending or flat out requiring ctgp. i get that a one stop shop for competitive is good for integrity, but i also feel like it forced people to download something they may not be fully interested in (as some players ONLY got it for comp but still exclusively play regs), and also made it seem like the ONLY ct pack you would need. it feels like we've outgrown ctgp, and other packs are taking over. of course people will obviously use ctgp for tts and competitive, but it has lost it's original purpose as a ct pack.
strongly agree with a lot of the sentiment in this video, very good watch 👍
My heart jumped seeing you upload. Didn't know you played Mario Kart Wii, now I want to see if I can race you on it
I'd be down! I genuinely forgot you also played LOL so didn't cross my mind
As someone who has been playing ctgp on/off for around 6-7 years, all of your points are valid and correct, but addressing them would result in an almost completely different modpack.
I think the real solution is just a straight-up remake of the pack, with a new focus on being more modern and approachable, while still having the old pack as an option.
Could even finally add in custom music for each track with the remake, which is a pretty new development and something I always wanted in ctgp.
@@MrNapkino Definitely an interesting option that could yield good results
4:08 yeah the barrier of entry is so high to the point where Someone who was a high-level Mogi player five years ago reentering now stands NO CHANCE
Nice vid mate , I'm a pretty old player, but I gave up custom track WWs because I couldn't handle having to learn so many tracks, when a lot of them get rotated. Considering Retro Rewind though, because of some of the reasons you said. Skills transfer. It's not learning specific tricks all the time
*Me, a veteran of Mario Kart & my opinions:*
3:29 I agree that some tracks are too long. I'm hopeful for the future that we will get more variety.
4:08 I don't agree with this one. There are a lot of tracks & there is some difficulty in some but if you play a lot, you'll get better.
4:56 Yea that's true, I'm not sure if it's possible but contacting creators & regular updates of them would solve this issue.
5:26 Like problem 1, it's something they could improve in but I don't mind having different types of custom tracks together though.
6:10 Nobody is perfect & I personally think creators of videos reviewing tracks should use positive feedback instead of negative.
If you are completely negative towards a person, it'll hurt them more than if you are also positive about other stuff they've done.
Of course, reacting with a long comment is maybe not the best but at least he reacted to give the creator of the video feedback.
I am a big fan of Mushroom Peaks and I personally would be very happy if it would stay forever. I don't care if it's the longest or hardest track of CTGP, if someone says CTGP, you know the first track that's coming to mind is Mushroom Peaks. It's that iconic. I'm pretty sure that if it would get more than 60% removal votes it would get removed but it would be the end of an era.
My main issue is the fact that there is zero custom music. If you look at mario kart wii deluxe, that has a bunch of custom tracks, custom music and many retro coruses are well made. Another one is that you NEED a wii and copy of mkwii. Other ctgp's dont require this. Wii hardware is gonna die eventually.
@@Equalizer2922 custom music isn't really an issue for me because I like modding in my own music (in fact all the songs used in the video are part of a pack I made myself) but I do understand this
The issue with custom music is that the track devs would all have to go back and choose a song, or else like half the tracks will still just be default; and the main issue would be the file size of all the music.
You need a copy of the game and a wii to legally mod the game, so I think it’s a good idea for CTGP to require that. They’re not looking to get sued 😆
There is a way to customize the music, but I wish it was a natural feature of the mod and didn't require so many convoluted steps to do. It was hard enough to finally get my Wii actually homebrewed.
@@AkameGaKillfan777 It's really not that hard. Just time consuming
Precise shortcuts to win and needing tech to win is something I really, REALLY want to avoid as a new track creator, bc I'm not good at that stuff myself, and I want to be able to play my tracks with my family as well. It just makes it unfun UNLESS the track is built around that and for a challenge and not online. Also about the too long tracks, thats kinda funny to me because my first track is the OPPISITE of that, its maybe a little too short. I haven't released it yet but I probably should do that.
@@Jj47291 exactly, I feel like also having to learn percise shortcuts for custom tracks just to compete online just feels wrong to me.
Given that Mushroom Peaks is the most popular track, it is even more problematic that it is the most hated track.. It should have been removed long ago imo.
I agree with all of your points, and I fully agree with the philosophy that tracks should be easy to drive for beginners but have more advanced strats for more experienced players. I have created several tracks in the pack myself, and I have always tried to design them with that in mind, and will continue to do so in the future
The issue with Peaks is that Mr. Bean takes a bit too much pride in his tracks to the point where you can't remakes his tracks at all so don't even bother asking. Peaks has already been remade as "Mushroom Mountain" which fixes a lot of the issues with Peaks, but since it wasn't done by bean himself it'll never be put in the pack let alone replace Peaks. I get it, hearing people bash on your track and say "this person made the track so much better" will hurt, but letting Peaks get replaced by Mushroom Mountain solves the current track's complaints and leaves his original work technically untouched, letting him be able to put Peaks back in whenever he can fix the layout in the way he wants it fixed.
I feel like a lot of the issues would still be around if Mushroom Mountain was the option chosen, though obviously less bad
Like I said though, the problem goes far beyond Peaks
“Ugh, the UA-camr intro where they explain the thing we already know, just g-“
“Skip to 2:36 if you want to get to the point”
Absolute savior
I don't typically make MKW content so a lot of my usual viewers actually need the context but for practicality purposes I figured I'd put the timestamp :)
Okay, I'm not a modder or anything, but I find "too much track variety" when there's only two or three categories a strange problem. See, as a casual player, I actually like both classic courses (and course remakes) as well as brand new courses made by the modders; the courses I DON'T like are those that are either specifically catered to pro players that know and use all the exploits perfectly (e.g. you HAVE to be a really good player that ALWAYS uses Funky Kong on the Bowser Bike/Flame Runner JUST to make this specific turn on a regular part of the course (i.e. NOT A SHORTCUT)), or just general jank that looks like it's being made by a novice... and sometimes it's BOTH, like with Mushroom Peaks (and not just because it actually IS the first public modded course or anything, the whole straight lines and 90 degree turns and random out-of-place elements like the jumbotron makes it look very amateurish).
While it's true that classic course remakes don't really have this issue, I think it's a bit weird to lump ALL brand new, modder-created courses in a single category like that and assume that only pro players can enjoy those, when really, this is more of a specific subcategory; I'm pretty sure there's custom courses out there that are more beginner-friendly and feel like they belong in an actual Mario Kart alongside the official courses. At least, this seems to be the case in the MK8(D) modding community...
@@ArendAlphaEagle the track variety itself isn't a problem. I just wanted to drop that in to feed into the later point of not knowing who the target audience actually is. You can absolutely have this type of track variety and make it work, but the execution has problems
Idk how difficult it would be to add, but i think it would be a cool idea to allow each player to ban like 3 tracks from being picked in worldwides. I understand it could be annoying to not be able to choose a track you want because someone randomly decided to ban it, and im sure the pros would hate it because a lot of the advanced tracks would be banned by newer players, but it would force people to choose something unique instead of the same tracks over and over to gain easy VR. It would also probably be a useful statistic to see which tracks are the most disliked by the community. I HIGHLY doubt this would ever be added tho
An interesting idea, but I feel like that would cause a lot more problems than it would solve tbh. Sounds like a coding nightmare, and with a lobby of 12 players you can have a total of 36 tracks banned, which is a lot
A video talking trash about Custom Tracks in Mario Kart Wii? I'm sold!
Had a feeling you'd be a fan of this one, I remember watching your video on the subject years ago and being blown away at how things have been. It's gotten a lot better in recent years, but still was worth bringing up
weren't you the guy that made a video whining about custom tracks
@@Treasuryholder6 Yes, I'm the guy who talked about the obvious biases of custom track creators and how they bullied an outsider for not liking a custom track among other things.
I think the longer tracks are very easy for me for some reason i always do good on them
i need an option for deflicker removal for those on console
I think the custom tracks generally are too long compared to the nintendo tracks
as a competitive player of around 5ish years, i do understand where a lot of these sentiments come from especially regarding peaks / hard tracks but I really do feel like expecting tracks to not require trial and error is not fair. the mushroom section on peaks especially can be learned relatively quickly if you take the time, its a awful track yes but some of the other hard tracks have been my favorites for years. i do think stubbornness / unwillingness to learn also has a hand in why certain tracks are disliked over others, i mean this all with respect as i get it, just how i generally feel when this topic is brought up, good video 🤝
can't agree more
Fair enough. This IS a game that has a lot of history and tech behind it, so I understand the sentiment
I just think all types of players should be taken into account and, like I said in the video, this seems to be done in a way that leaves all sides frustrated
"I really do feel like expecting tracks to not require trial and error is not fair."
It's also not fair to gate simply _completing_ the track in a reasonable amount of time behind trial and error.
Take a look at some of the better-designed official Nintendo tracks in MKWii. A lot of these have difficult shortcuts that, even if you know what to do, still take trial and error to actually be able to do them consistently. But these tracks don't _force_ you to take those routes (like Mushroom Peaks does), those difficult shortcuts aren't instant "I win" buttons either (like on Delphino Island), and the punishment for failing them isn't "lol softlocked" (like Mushroom Peaks again).
I'm not saying that tracks that force you to use master advanced tech or learn extremely precise lines just to be able to complete them reasonably shouldn't exist, but they should be in their own "expert" packs, not in a generalist pack like CTGP-R.
Basically:
Trial and error for getting fast times is fair.
Trial and error for _just simply finishing the course within the cutoff after first finishes_ is not.
how about the removal of good tracks being replaced with mid boring broken sc tracks
4:29 you know you can just tf input trick cut like the bkt? it’s extremely easy compared to what you’re doing
The problem's the fact that I DIDN'T know this, and it feels like REQUIRED knowledge
I also have heard the term tf input before but never actually figured out what the tf input *is* (but that one's on me lmao)
Well, just reading that rant on MrBean's part was ALLLLLLLLLL I needed to know.
No, actually, it's not. Dismissing everything based off a rant from *five years ago* is entirely missing the point.
But it certainly has a lot of issues aside from a community that tried to appeal to everyone (not a bad thing, but it can cause some issues), among other things.
@@silverstar6589 Not denying that, and that's why I wanted to show it, to give some more context to it all. I just don't think taking a side based off that alone is healthy, is all
They should divide the online word wide into all courses and good courses.
And scatter the already low playerbase even more? I feel this'd be a recipe for disaster (and hard to program)
@@OlmiOP ?? it would get the people like me who want to play custom tracks WW but stop having fun as soon as a bad track shows up.
@@SeaSlug You'd have a hard time actually finding rooms with more than 3 players because both room types are going to split the already limited playerbase (there's been times where there's literally only 1 room active with 5 players at most, that problem would get way worse
@@OlmiOP well it's not going to get better if nothing changes
@@SeaSlug true, this is why I made an entire video about that :)
Splitting the lobbies is NOT the way to go
Caution time gated pansexual rollercoaster
So real
11:33 😳glad you like it
It honestly may be my favorite track in CTGP, very nicely done :)
Clicks on video because it’s about CTGP
Finds out Chadderz is Trans 😮
Yea that's a relatively new thing, proud of her for that :)
Is she still on good terms with others?
@@AkameGaKillfan777 As far as I'm aware yeah. They made a whole video about it on Bean's channel and things seem to be going well for them :)
ctgp is dead because theres other options with better tracks, more support, bigger playerbase, 480p XDDD
mkw in general is dying. Even rr not pulling the same numbers like it used to. It's just RR is the most accessible, and old players are leaving faster than new players replacing them
incendia is amazing
if peaks ever gets removed i'm quitting ctgp
@@MkwRa well you're in luck. It didn't get removed
It will, however, turn into a Secret Track next December update
@@OlmiOP okay, i don't mind secret track tbh
@@MkwRa If Secret tracks weren't selectable on WWs I'd be okay with this, but as is I'm not too happy with the decision personally
@@OlmiOP well, i'm sure a lot of people (myself included) would basically just quit if mushroom peaks was no longer votable in wws
@@MkwRa Just like a lot of people have already quit BECAUSE of Mushroom Peaks being in the game
I literally know people that would've come back if Peaks got removed but now they won't because it's still in
It goes both ways y'know
Ctgp is probably the most revolutionary and important thing ever created besides wiimfi, but now it kinda sucks and isn’t useful anymore. Like I downloaded and the tracks look so bare and empty. Retro rewind is just so much better in every way, it makes ctgp just useless…to me
12:25 nice blue dodge
@@MkwRa thank you! It was a silly one
7:18 you really had to throw in the "trans rights are human rights" ? It factually is not a human right by any country's definition, you cannot force me to believe gender can be changed around like Lego pieces, that doesn't make me evil or a threat to your rights, just means I don't agree and don't have to, rights cannot violate another's rights, that makes it no longer a right if only specific people are given it, this is a mario kart wii video, please stop finding an excuse to make it about "trans rights"
@@SAINTLUCIFER_WG it's not that serious lil bro I just threw a little comment
@@SAINTLUCIFER_WG if pronouns scare you just wait till you find out about adverbs 🥶
@SAINTLUCIFER_WG womp womp snowflake
@SAINTLUCIFER_WG And adjectives also sound hard for ya. How about "foolish?" Because that's what you are.
Trans rights are human rights, fool. :v
@@OlmiOP I'm not your "lil bro" keep the video topic unconfused
I haven't seen the video yet but hidden shortcut (often shroomless) where you need to watch expert ghost multiple times are awful (like this one even if it is not that bad because you can actually see it when you toss yourself in water ua-cam.com/video/V5TFQnylDe8/v-deo.htmlsi=DTPF5kYNB9hdXLaH&t=30 ) like you launch ctgp after 1 or more year go online and see 5 funky kong making an absurd cut in nowhere on the minimap
This and/or maps that feel like using a kart, an outside drift bike or even Torpedo is a crime
And yeah using a kart online instantly results in very kind players choosing a mushroom track, most likely doing peaks/kinoko/peaks/kinoko... even if they're bad at them