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The $60,000 Linn LP12-50 Turntable: Price and Design - Hit or Miss(ed Opportunities)? (Ep:68)
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- Опубліковано 16 сер 2024
- Linn established itself in Scotland 1973 with a single product, the Sondek LP12 turntable, which some people believe is one of the most iconic turntables of all time. This year marks Linn’s 50th anniversary. To celebrate, the company has released the Sondek LP12-50 turntable, which carries a retail price of $60,000 in the United States. One of its claims to fame is the involvement of world-famous designer Jony Ive, who is best known for his past work at Apple. But is the design any good? And is this turntable worth that much money? In this video, SoundStage! founder Doug Schneider gives you his thoughts on these issues-and at the end, he also asks for your thoughts about this interesting but controversial product.
#audiophile #stereo #hifi
I agree with everything you are saying. AND it’s TIME for Linn to get out of their little sphere of influence and see what other manufacturers are doing.
I have to say that it is rather disappointing given both the price and the promotion of Jony Ive as the industrial designer that the company didn't do more -- MUCH more.
Geeezz! What are you banging on about? It's not a redesign. it's a restyle with cues from "love from" small engineering improvements, yes, but it's just a celebration of the Linn Sondek. If they came out with a huge mass loaded turntable as a celebration of half a century of the Sondek, that would be ridiculous! If enthusiasts with the cash want to purchase it, why the hell not. Moreover, Linn has always been about evolution, and every upgrade can be applied, wherever you are on your LP12 journey, knowing you will get sonic improvements. I listened to their Klimax just a month ago, and it sounded superb, easily able to tough it out with the outlandish and often vulgar over designed turntables that are seen everywhere in the esoteric hifi shows. The Klimax made music in a way that made you want to keep playing it record after record. So yes, I'd take this model and walk away happy. But if I had the money to burn, of course I'd have the 50th anniversary. So it's really all about celebrating half a century of engineering excellence and evolution. So just lighten up, borrow one, and come back with a proper review.
Did i “bang on” about superiority of giant mass loaded turntables? Nope. Did i question whether a Klimax was any good? Nope. You made those assumptions . Make assumptions and that just makes you an a$$.
I recently bought a pre-owned Linn Sondek LP12 (for $640 🤭) and I must admit it was a huge improvement on my Pro-ject Debut Carbon with an Ortofon Quintet MC Red cartridge. I’m a relative newbie to hifi so I don’t know how I would have experienced something like a ClearConcept or Rega 6/8/10 turntable. The price for this turntable here is insane. With the same amount of money I could buy a 2 or 3 bedroom apartment in my country, South Africa.
I am playing devil’s advocate here. I saw in the comments lots of people saying “I would never spend £50K for a turntable” or “I would never spend £50K for a LP12”. That’s not the point of the discussion. The point is if you WERE to buy an LP12 is £50K to much for this design?
The Design
The outcome of John Ive’s contribution is mundane, but I am pretty sure Linn has given LoveFrom so many caveats of things that couldn’t be modified that meant colour, buttons and hinges were the only ones John could tinker with.
In all fairness, why go against your philosophy of producing a turntable fully upgradable and market an anniversary piece that is not compatible with said upgrades?
The Price
Linn is like Marmite, you love it or you hate it, but no one can deny the LP12 is an icon piece not only in the HiFi world but in industrial design and engineering too. This is a statement piece for aficionados, just like a limited edition supercar, they can demand any price.
Do I like it? No. Would I buy it? No
Great points!
Well, the real question should be, "who can hear the difference between this and lesser expensive turntables and is the difference better?"
Great point!
Thanks for posting and agree with most said.
Dust covers fall in the category of “It is what it is” and the hat can you really do to redesign them? They do need to fit the shape /footprint of the plinth and that shape is a rectangle for the Linn and many other tables 🤷🏽♂️
Do think the goal might have been to NOT radically change the visual design. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it? Otherwise for an additional 30K, would love to hear exactly what the sonic improvements are. Better power supply? Better sub chassis, better tonearm? Exclusive cartridge? etc. For this amount, the designer should have signed each one?
If you can’t hear the improvements by just listening to music opposed to listening to the turntable, then the differences and price isn’t justified.
Note this is from someone who’s owned the same LP12 since the early 90’s with some upgrades: Lingo lll power supply, better tonearms and the Cirkus subchassis. All of those upgrades were significant improvements that didn’t cost $30K more than the current iteration
Agree, sold out. But trust me, only someone who has never heard a great turntable would say "there is no difference".....there is a MASSIVE difference....
I never was an Apple person and had never heard of Ives before but apparently is a well known (industrial ?) artist. So people will be banking on that. I wish that it was someone like Banksy who got involved and signed each table. Hell, even if it was an Ion or Crosley designed and signed by Banksy, it would sell for a hundred grand and sell each one before they hit the market.
Very true!
The point with linn lp12 is its got a certain sound or naturalness to its sound. In fact it sounds like vinyl and i don't know any other table that sounds like it. That's its charm and if you want that type of unique sound or something more analytical then there are plenty of tables equally as expensive that sound digital to my ears and I say whats the point in that.
And you can get that sound from a streamer or half decent CD player. I really do not like TT's that do that. Say what you like about Linn LP12 but the loudest voice will be its enduring longevity and that is for a reason. It's a music machine and to my ears has a natural and engaging sound.
Just buy the top model Rega - Great sound for a fraction of the price...
Prices are just becoming absurd in the audio world. It has an embossed plaque and a machined power button...
I would never expect Linn to alter the LP12 significantly. The LP12 is an idiosyncratic product, which were never designed to optimize playback of LP´s. It was initially designed to musiclovers on a budget, hence the LP12 was a cheap alternative to i.e. Thorens.
Through the years Linn has carefully build up the story of a special Linn sound, in which I have to agree. The LP12 does have its own sound, which is loved by Linnies and often despised by others.
So if you´re in the market for a turntable capable of providing the most stable, acurate and vibrationfree environment for your cartridge, to dig up even the tiniest information hiding in the groove, and then transducing that to an equivalent electrical signal, then go for something else. I.e SME would be a wonderfull but expensive choice.
Viewed as a product aimed at chasing these goals, the LP12 just seems substandard, but It has its fans, and if they are rich, good for Linn.
The same thing could be said about i.e. Ortofon SPU, which also is an outdated product, but still has its crowd of fans.
The diference though is, that Ortofon doesn´t claim it to be anything else than it ever was, and they have produced many newer cartridges with a lot of new high tech materials, technology and better performance through the years.
I can see I’m in the minority here, but here goes. If I won the lottery next week this would be at the front end of my end game system.
This is a new halo product from Linn and I fully expect them to sell very well indeed. As with all halo products, the technology will gradually filter down the range and the cooking products will be better for it. Brand followers will also be able to add to their turntables as budgets allow.
If this were Porsche, just announcing their next $million hypercar, would you be saying all the same things about them, given that the average price of a normal Porsche is one tenth of that? What about a used one for a quarter of that again? In absolute terms, is a $25k used Porsche as good as the new $1m hypercar? Not even close, but for owner satisfaction, I bet it’s every bit as good.
I paid a fraction of the price of a new LP12 for mine and I’ve since added some upgrades, both genuine and aftermarket. It is now an extremely good sounding turntable. Is it as good as this one? Absolutely not. Do I mind, again, not at all. It is all I could wish for for my £3,000.
So the design, have you seen an Apple product? They did one revolutionary product, which rewrote the rules on what a mobile phone is. After that they have made one incremental change after another. Brand loyalty is created by making all of your customers feel valued. You do that by making sure that those with a three year old product can still walk tall next to someone with the brand new model. It works for Porsche and Audi too.
I’m a second time Linn owner and I can honestly say I have converted many people to the joys of vinyl using my system. Before you write this off as a rip off, perhaps you should go and listen to a well set up LP12 for yourself. Especially if you have normal ears. Special hearing absolutely not required.
I certainly don't mind someone buying it if they have money to blow. Heck, buy what you want. But I think it's a really weak offering from Linn and Jony Ive. I mean, DO something. Don't just round some edges and tinkle with hinges.
60K is outrageous for any turntable. Why, even if owned 300 of the best recordings in the world this would not make sense!
Trouble with a $60k Linn LP12 is that at that price, you can get a better table with a lot of money left over. A good example would be an Avid Acutus Classic with their Nexus arm and Reference Ruby cartridge. All in, you’re looking at $33k USD, or around $26k without a cartridge, and then you can grab a $4000 Hana Umami Red and put another $10k into a phono stage and call it a day.
I run the Acutus with a Kuzma 4 point 9”. It’s pretty fabulous, even with a $2500 Hana Umami Blue or Cadenza Bronze.
Founded by Ivor Tiefenbrun in Glasgow, Scotland, in 1972
I don't know I think linn among other companies come out with products and the people often will criticize their product in a general sense, however I think that's a flawed approach.
Personally I believe a product should be reviewed on its own merits relative to a standard and also what sort of design or mechanical or operational philosophy the company is going for.l
Like for example if a company only made $800 turntables and then all of a sudden they come out with an 80,000 turntable and the 80,000 one wasn't really all that much better or differentiated itself greatly from the $800 model, well then that is something certainly to criticize.
I'm somewhat critical of rega for their approach to turn tables, I've heard everything from the P8 on down to the P1 and in my opinion sonically they don't sound too dissimilar. If it wasn't for the fact that I have p6 and I love their products so much, I might more widely perpetuate that criticism.
On the other hand we do have to appreciate the fact that linn as always been sort of an outlier in terms of hi-fi and in terms of what they want to do is what they want to do, they don't care what the industry trends are and ultimately they don't care what so-called industry insiders think is the perfect thing, they make what they believe to be the perfect thing.
If this were my first major piece of design outside of Apple, I think I would have made more of an impact. I chuckled at ‘belongs in the kitchen’! 😊
I don't own a Linn lp 12 , I'd certainly like to but they have slightly created their own problem , I doubt they will be short of 250 customers world wide that will be happy to buy one but by limiting numbers and then charging an OTT price is it leaves them open to criticism on performance and value. If they keep production at 250 but make the price more sensible , say half that price there is danger of speculation on the product ie they get sold on for double the price 60-80 K dollars on the second hand market simply because of limited supply, and why would they want someone that has done nothing make 20-30 k for doing nothing, may as well go in their pockets. Long live the LP 12, cheap compared to a piece of art that goes on the wall!
As a limited-supply piece it's, yes, what someone with too much money will buy. But as a performance or even design item, sorry...
@@dougschneider8243 I haven't actually heard it but yes, lets just say there is probably a fair degree of hubris surrounding that price tag compared to other turntables.
If you already have one then you won't be needing this one. Same signature sound. If you don't have one then forget this one. You must already know you can enjoy music without having one.
I bet it sounds amazing
Thank you !!
At last ….
Sense and honesty 🙏
This turntable is an absolute rip off , a product for fools and their money .
Yes, you made many good points. As someone who has modded and rebuilt many thorens 125,s make it look like 50 k 😅.
If you're talking about British pounds, yes, 50k. But in US dollars, they have to make it look like 60k!!!
I watched the entire presentation and would have enjoyed it better if model specific design elements were discussed. As it is, I still know very little about the turntable under discussion,
I got no real problem with a Turntable costing 60K. However, I am not seeing enough new and advanced technology to merit such a hefty price. This is merely a collector's piece and not a true ultra-Hi-End product. Even if I could afford it, I would consider other brands way before investing in this one.
Your thoughts mirror mine exactly.
I'd like to hear it on a decent set up, looks cool but not 60 grand cool.
I would like to try one of those Technics tables, but, even with the top line one, they look cheap glitzy plasticky, 70’s -ish to me…
People wouldn’t Buy a Linn if it didn’t look like a Linn! If someone is a multi millionaire why do they care how much it costs! We know Audiophiles wont buy this! I have a Michell Orb with an Alphason HR100 Titanium arm and a VDH Frog Gold! Which I would imagine would sound almost as good! But I brought for the sound not the bragging rights! 👍
Sounds like it’s an iteration of “the emperor’s new clothes”!
Agree with you. The LP12 is their golden product, and they can’t redesign an improved turntable because it would lesson the value of the LP12.
The Linn LP12 was never a mere turntable, oh no. It was so bad originally that Linn thought, hey: Let's make this thing into a platform for a million upgrades that way we can really screw-over all those mug punters as they strive to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
It's an interesting comment. From what I recall, the LP12 was never the pinnacle of reliability near the start. I would *think*, however, that they've had those ironed out for some time.
Most of those reliability problems stem from the LP-12’s sensitivity to footfalls thanks to most all American homes having springy suspended floors. . Nothing wrong with the LP-12 that a decent wall-mount shelf wouldn’t solve. Actually, a wall shelf is probably the biggest upgrade you could make to ANY turntable not too ridiculously big and heavy to fit on one.
You’re right sir , wall mounting a TT is the way to do it. The LP12 is decent enough but way over hyped, over priced and over rated. The Japanese showed the world how to make TTs with their DD models. The LP12 though was a tremendously significant product for the British “HiFi” industry , not because of its performance but because of Ivor (the guy behind it) and his dubious salesmanship and sales techniques. TBH the LP12 as a product sold because of the grooming and seduction and hype and tripe and BS behind it - and this was the start of the Brave New World of “subjectivism” , in British “HiFi” and beyond. Back in the day, I owned an LP12, a cheap Sony DD and a Rega Planar 3. The Linn and the Sony were close in sound quality, the Rega not so much - that's why Linn dealers used them to demo against the LP12 BTW , the biggest problem with vinyl replay has got nothing to do with the TT - it’s the vinyl itself. Properly designed turntables really shouldn't and in fact don't so so different.
@@daniannaci3258
You need more product shots.
OMG Doug, I didn’t know you shared my hate for dust covers!😂
Glad to hear that I'm not the only one who thinks so! They're almost all LOUSY. What I particularly hate is that they almost all get cloudy and scratched in not too long a time. But moreover for a product like this, because of the price, it should really be something unique and special. Like I said in the video, they needed to take a creative approach with it.
I bought an LP-12 Valhalla, Ittok LV II, and Troika new in 1989, top of the line then, for about $3500, which is approximately $8700 in today’s dollars. Last year when had the Valhalla power supply board recapped, the owner of the shop noticed my original dust cover still looked new, as he had a couple new LP-12s on demo for comparison. I guess people don’t know how to clean them (it’s not easy to do it right- No Windex!). BTW, I still enjoy that LP-12 to this day, including the Troika MC cartridge which has been retipped and/or rebuilt 4 times so far.
Its only there to protect the machine from...oh yes dust! You completely remove it when you play records and that is easily and simply done
Here’s what I think. Any fan of Willie’s is a friend of mine.
One other thing, when are we going to see you pull a couple of consecutive 1260’s on those boards in the background?
Ha! I still go to the park, but nothing too ambitious. The concrete seems harder these days.
Why improve on a perfect design? Better design than a spaceshuttle with flickering lights.
I agree that this 50th anniversary turntable is a missed opportunity to celebrate the occasion, at least from a visual perspective. It’s a 6.5 minute video so I get it but I wish you had included more research about the internals because that is where I would expect Linn spend most of the work/research or whatever it is that could justify the price. For example: I just listened to one this morning and to my surprise it had an ethernet cable connecting to the DAC, so the turntable had an integrated phono converter (not sure its the right term) but it could also be ordered with the typical RCA cables and there was another option, so the connectivity connection is a subject you could had cover. The set-up at the local Hi-Fi place I visited was all Linn. The DAC, two mono amps, and the power supply that powers the turntable’s motor and the analog to digital phono converter inside the turntable.
The interesting thing is that while I noticed a bit more clarity when compared with the Majik Linn I was there to listen in the first place, I wasn’t impressed by the sound it produced (given the TT was $60K).
I did look at what had been changed and, at the time I made that video, only the plinth material, which surprised me. The rest seems to be the same as the model lower.
You have made no comment on the audio engineering that went into this turntable, why not? Let's face it - nobody wants to redesign the record playing process because that is why it is becoming a hit in the market.
I think it’s a sound investment for a collector that’s a loyal audiophile enthusiast of the Lin brand. (And cashed up) I’m happy with my Goldring Lenco GL 75 and a few others turntables - but there’s all ways room for a Lin LP12 somewhere, just don’t tell my wife.
All Ive did visually was round the corners of the platter base.
The LP12 is a sound machine and should not be spoiled by design. LoveFrom respects the sonic features of this iconic turntable. And the price? I ordered one, for me the LP-50 is worth every cent.
Enjoy, Gerhard. I'm sure it'll be very nice to own and use.
No issue with charging $60K.. or even more. $100K ? $1 Million would be more impressive. The better value and eventually more collectible would be the Rega NAIA, limited to 50 units(?) and priced at under $20K that is much more impressive looking that other Rega's.
The sme 60 is a real 60 k piece worthy of the price . The linn shit always makes me Laugh
Many people would agree with you.
As typed by someone who never heard a properly set up one.
@daniannaci3258 yes you've known me all my life so you should know ..uou bellend
I think this video would have better value if you actually had one there with you…..
$6000, maybe. $60,000? Absolutely not! For that much, buy a VPI Titan instead.
VPI
VPI definitely makes good stuff. One of our vinyl writers, Jason Thorpe, has a VPI deck.
I really hate setting up and handling the unipivot arms on VPI turntables. But I noticed that since Matt took over, there seems to be a significant movement towards traditional gimbal arms.
It still looks like it belongs on top of one of those old 70s CRT cabinet TV's!
It really doesn’t.
Seems like nobody can afford this one😅. Jony Ives contacted Linn and expressed his wish to design something for his most preferred brand! They’re sold out by the way :-)
I thought I'd answered this, but because I put a URL in, sometimes YT doesn't post. Certainly, there will be people who buy them. Has it sold out? Perhaps? But (and this is where I put the URL in and won't this time), if you go to the product page for it, they are still taking "Reservations" for it.
I’ve an old LP12 and I think it looks better
Especially with the fluted walnut base. I gotta get me one of those…
concern: still using rubber flat belt not synthetic material
hinge is old fashion design
suspension springs too simple and unreliable
platter not enough weight make spinning stability inferior to direct drive
why white not exortic real not laminated wood peel in color
no signature metal plate as commemorate sign
2nd hand price because abundance of available used item, can they be used as replacement parts
not fashion eye catching as rega turntables using new materials and strengthen rigidity .
I have no problem with the LP12-50. If Linn can sell them so be it. It’s not for the audiophile
Same here. I just would've liked to have seen a more substantial product for that money -- and for its purpose, too, which is to celebrate the company.
@@dougschneider8243 I can’t argue with that. For me the most interesting part isn’t the rounded corners, rounded switch, but rather “holy cow, maybe the have figured out how to make a hinge that isn’t crap” and if that could be made available to us mere mortals at a price that doesn’t cause profanities to spew out of my mouth I’m a happy camper
But back to your comment, both Rega and Naim have launched far more accessible anniversary products
On my 1989 LP-12, one dustcover hinge went bad after about 18 years. I replaced them both and it’s been fine ever since. If I remember, the hinges were about $35/pair direct from Audiophile Systems, then the Linn distributor in the US. Really, that’s not too bad. No tools necessary.
Got a linn lp12 with and ekos arm, I bougth it for 1500 dollars used 20 years ago 😂
Compared to other longtime UK turntables like a SME model 60, or Rega Niad, this is a piece of pure hype. Ridiculous.
Get a Pro-Ject turntable.
I still work for a Project dealer. We buy Project turntable replacement motors by the case.
They can KEEP it and other manufacturer's tables for that kind of money!
It's a lot of money -- but, hey, if someone is willing to pay that much for something average, so be it. I would've liked to have seen a lot more from the brand.
You ready don't know anything about the LP12 do you. 60K , There are other turntables that cost way, way more.
Tbh high end turntables makes little sense to me. Even with a 50k turntable you cant escape the inherent flaws with vinyl itself.
Foolish money… Time for a big tax increase for the top income types…
Well, seeing as how the LP12 was copied off the Ariston RD11, it will always be a rip off.
At last. Correct. RIP Hamish.
Follow that logic and everybody copied off everybody for every piece in the HiFi chain.
@@Gez492 Yeah, except this is a direct rip off. In every way. Guy left Ariston, went to the same engineering firm that built the deck, and had them copy it. Google it, and do a bit if research. The LP12 is a direct rip off of the Ariston…
Not in this case. The original lp12 was an rd11 and even still have Ariston stickers inside. There was no difference. I have one and an Lp12 from 85. The Ariston, admittedly without plinth cover arm or cartridge, cost £80 new. I still have it, works fine. As does my Valhalla Lp12 from 85, which still only cost £275, with a solid afromosia plinth, cover and arm. Also works great. Ivor was a masterful promoter of what became his product. The full Ariston/Linn story is out there in the web. Very sad.
would to see a blind test of one these record players and a cheapo one you can pick up from Target or what have you. let's see if anyone can really hear that $60,000 lol
I'm very practical when it comes to hi-fi. But I will say that those cheap turntables are cheap because they're lousy. A good turntable isn't easy to make -- it takes design skills and expensive materials for the turntable itself, tonearm, and cartridge. Inexpensive digital playback is one thing -- you can be hardpressed to hear the difference between, say, a DAC for a few hundred dollars or many thousands. But with turntable -- no way, it's easy. Believe me, I have a couple of extremely good inexpensive ones here and, in the grand scheme of things, they're not that good.
I'll take that challenge. You should maybe do it yourself before opening your mouth ? AKA you're not talking for experience.
You're a doofuss! Think, before you speak. Now go stand in the corner and think about what you said.
You have not heard music until you have heard it on a proper Linn.
Yours is a confused marketing post. What counts is the sound quality.
I confess that you've completely lost me with what you're trying to say with that post.
60.000 € for a LP12. Ok. Thats it, High-End-crowd. After 40 years I will quit now this game. I sell all my gear and do it like young people: With Handy and In-ears. Good bye.
60.000 Linn Turntabel...thats a joke 🤣😂🤣
Well, a joke given what's been done. I think Linn could've done things to justify such a high price -- but chose not to.
A fool and his money are easily parted,
You “audiophiles” are so boringly predictable and cliched. So there are $150,000 turntables. But the cost of the LP12-50 is an issue? Ever seen a proper setup of an LP12? Put an LP12-50 against ANYTHING.
It’s probably the best looking record player you can get. So why would they change the look.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Rip off
looks like poo poo
My SL 1200 ,Mk2, is way better looking than this LINN....and to my normal ears... Probably sounds just as good
I have 2 SL1200 MK2 and for DJ'ing cannot be bettered. But for listening and musicality, I can with experience tell you the SL1200 is not in the same ball park as my LP12. As for looks they really can't be compared, I love my SL1200 MK2 in their flight case but I look look at my Ekos SE arm and the engineering is next level compared to the Technics. Sorry It just is but enjoy the 1200 MK2 they are very good indeed even in a domestic setting.