Doctor Who: Dark Water/Death In Heaven - REVIEW - Cybercember
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
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When your episode is so bad, the BBC have to misrepresent it in order to save face.
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"The darkest day. The blackest hour. Chin up, shoulders back. Let's see what we're made of, you and I."
This review has been 6 years in the making. So let's celebrate that persistence. Be sure to hit that "like" button and also leave any comment down below to appease the almighty algorithm!
At around 19:50 if I remember correctly those two guards aren’t real. They were projections as evidenced from the fact they both vanished in one device touch once she leaves her shackles.
That’s how I view that at least 😊
Also at 23:30, I concede immediately that this is purely my interpretation of events and not what is in the script. That said, I don’t think it is that out of character for the Doctor to oppose switching on an inhibitor since it effectively means completing the Cyber-conversion process.
The Doctor prefers to live in hope that conversion can be reversed, Davison’s doctor even stated in Spare Parts that he would rather lose all his regenerations than face eternity as a Cyberman. Therefore, agreeing to turn on the inhibitor would be hugely out of character for him since the Doctor views Cyber-conversion as a process worse than multiple deaths.
I’m curious what you think of this interpretation, even if Moffat couldn’t be bothered to put in the legwork for this kind of explanation in-universe. 🙂
Stop sitting on the fence! Did you like this story or not?
Oh, follow-up to my earlier comment, did some more skipping around and I have some more to say;
- Yes it IS a con, in that it isn't the "natural" afterlife. Missy created it. It's fake. It's not where everyone goes after death by default.
- What's wrong with a writer re-using ideas? Seriously, what is wrong with that? Just to use Doctor Who examples, Spearhead from Space was largely based on the 1965 film Invasion, which Robert Holmes wrote the plot for, and Robert Shearman uses the same setting of "world where genre cliches are literal laws of nature" in two seperate Doctor Who stories; The Holy Terror and The Chimes of Midnight (also Punchline if you count unlicensed stories). And Holmes and Shearman are two of the most well-regarded Doctor Who writers!
- In the Forest of the Night isn't saying you shouldn't take medication for anything, it's about how we over-medicate people rather than trying to understand them and the actual causes of their affliction. Which is true. I don't even like that story much but it is not saying that.
Right, that's probably it. I'm done skipping though now.
Still sad that Capaldi’s last words as the Doctor weren’t “FUCKITY BYE!”
Maybe they were his last words to Steven Moffat
@@BH-98 😂 i believe it was
That cut has to exist somewhere
At least we have the brilliant World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls tomorrow to make up for this.
Such a letdown we don't get Christmas specials anymore. Had The Doctor Falls ended with a regeneration I think I would have really loved it!! :)
The brilliant World Enough and Time and the meh Doctor Falls
And then timeless children as the last review?? Oh boy...
I dunno man, I think in regard to the whole "it's a racket" I think the implication is that this afterlife is something Missy manufactured and that the link between consciousness and the physical dead carcas was a clause within that. So the real untampered afterlife remains ambiguous. There's a lot of disconnect and loose ends in this story but honestly, I found it was at least a satisfying one with a good sense of momentum (which is more than can be said for many Moffat finales). It's quite a macabre story and I get that this would rub folks up the wrong way but honestly, I appreciated that Doctor Who genuinely went dark with this one.
Holy mackerel, it’s famous nerd culture UA-cam star Channel Pup! What are you doing here
I mean, if the "fake afterlife" has spanned all of human history and is, for all intents and purposes, completely indistinguishable from a *real* fucked up afterlife, then I don't see why it makes a difference that it's a con other than "at least the Doctor fixes it after this story." It still means that everyone who ever died in this universe suffered horribly for God knows how long.
That aside, here's my take on the inclusion of a concept this nightmarish in Doctor Who: Doctor Who has often had pretty horrific ideas in its episodes, intentionally or otherwise. I'd say that people feeling everything that happens to their bodies after death is something that you can put in your script, absolutely. ...But if you're going to write something this existentially terrifying into your story aimed at family audiences, it had better be a damn good story. Quite apart from the points about suitability for children that Mr TARDIS made (again, I think you can just about get away with it if the story is good enough to justify that concept and it's treated with the appropriate gravity - this story fails on both counts), you're never going to be able to come up with a concept scarier than the idea that for tens of thousands of years, everyone who ever lived was agonizingly tortured in the afterlife with no control over their fate, no matter how they died, who they were, how they acted in life or what they believed. You get *one shot* at pulling off the scariest fucking idea you will ever have, so you'd better make it count.
I totally agree. Some fans think a manufactured afterlife in Hell that eventually ends means no big problem after all.@@Talisguy
Danny isn’t “somehow not affected by the conditioning,” he was activated before he’d agreed to turn off his emotions. Now one could still ask “why does Missy need consent for that when other Cyber conversion stories never got hung up about consent?” but I’m just saying there is a reason.
This one clearly rubbed you up the wrong way, and while there’s some massive issues with it (those soldiers guarding Missy, SERIOUSLY), I still like it more than I dislike it.
Yea I agree with this explanation, but then also that means loads of people who have died since Danny dying should also have their emotional inhibitors turned off. And then the Brigadier does fight the conditioning later in the story. This plot sort of comes apart at the seams but I also find some enjoyment in it
@@LaurenceGill2000 how do you know no-one else had their inhibitors turned off. Also, I think it's intended that the Brigadier didn't delete his emotions
Big fan, nice to see you in the comments section.
@The Reverse Not to mention the Master tormented our heroes with sissor sisters and his dancing, honestly where is the justice?
@@Ben-vf5gk the Master has some moves tho
MRTARDIS: "This is the worst thing you've ever done!"
Steven Moffat: "You say that so much it's lost all meaning!"
The most frustrating thing about Steven Moffat is that he's either the best ever writer for Doctor Who or he's the absolute worst, often at the same time within the same episode. This is why 12 is probably my favourite Doctor: even though there are overwhelming lows in his era, Moffat just gives him these moments that display a complex and profound understanding of the character and Capaldi just runs with it. Imagine what he could have done if the quality had been consistent throughout - such a missed opportunity.
I do feel bad for the Moff though; I get the sense that he was utterly exhausted making Sherlock and Doctor Who at the same time, hence why that gap between Series 9 and 10 seemed to completely refresh the show (The Lie of the Land/Twice Upon a Time aside).
He seems to have the same problem bands talk about with their first two releases - "You have twenty years to write your first album, and only one to write your second". It's as if he dreams about writing shows for a long time, and so writes one good series which he's really thought about, then he seems to lose the time to decide which ideas are good and which are bad before series 2. Sherlock and Doctor Who are both like this IMHO (Jekyll didn't quite make it through series 1). It may be coincidence, but it also seems to be the case that an exception is when he writes under another showrunner who can do the job for him, and it's under these circumstances that we got such excellent episodes as Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, and Blink. For all the good and bad during his tenure, I think the worst mistake the Doctor Who team made in that time was deciding that the gruff 12 didn't work, and changing his personality back to Matt Smith/David Tennant for series 9. That was a tremendous disservice both to Peter Capaldi's strengths, and to the most interesting new characterisation we'd seen for the Doctor since the damaged 9th. When he locked Clara in with the clockwork men in Deep Breath, I got chills. I never would again after that series.
It's hard to feel bad for someone who breathes his own farts instead of oxygen
@@bigdaddydons6241you should get along fine with him.
I'd argue that Clara's betrayal actually does work thematically when taking the whole of Series 8 into account. Once Danny discovers Clara's relationship with the Doctor in The Caretaker, she promises to end her travels after one final trip. But she ultimately finds she can't give it up and instead lies to Danny about ending things. Her lies continue during Flatline, an episode that also explores Clara's arc of becoming similar to The Doctor. Danny then discovers Clara's still travelling with the Doctor in ITFOTN and confronts her about it, asking for her to think about things and tell him the truth tomorrow. Dark Water then opens the next day with Clara attempting to tell Danny this truth.
Clara shouting 'shut up' does feel jarring out of context, but it fits perfectly with the theme of Clara becoming more like The Doctor. "Shut up" had basically been one of Twelves catchphrases. This all then contrasts quite effectively with her sudden betrayal of the Doctor. After lying to Danny and effectively choosing The Doctor over him, to see her do something so drastic for the man she loves is impactful, even if it means confronting the very person she'd been seemingly favouring over him.
Out of context it arguably doesn't work as well, and I can see your point about Clara's reputation as a control freak lessening the impact of the moment.
Agree!
He's not affected by the conditioning, because he doesn't get a chance to delete his emotions, which we see at the end of the first part.
I think that might involve paying a little more attention than was given.
Aah, so every single Cyberman (at least in this story) chose to get their emotions removed, but Danny Pink was the only one who didn't because... reasons? Theres no other person at that point in time that didn't choose to remove their emotions? Oh, except the Cyber-Brig ofc -_-
@@HazarTulum If you're going to be like that, then let's ask this: Why offer an option? Missy isn't the sort to justify her actions with moralistic philosophies.
@@HazarTulum well we aren't shown any other than Danny and the brig but it doesn't mean they weren't out there. Sure it's convenient for the sake of interactions between the main characters that Danny is the only emotional one in the graveyard but it's not as ridiculous as him being the only one in the world (that said, not explaining this openly is flawed writing).
All it showed was him hovering over the button. It never acknowledges whether he pressed it or not and whether that would influence the conversion of he didn't.
It would also beg the question of why bother converting him physically, if he didn't consent to the mental conditioning? Surely they could just decide not to convert him or just go the full 10 miles anyway
A thing i find stupid is that Clara throwing the keys is pointless because the doctor can snap his fingers to open the TARDIS doors so Clara threat is pointless (if it was real)
My memory of this era of DW is poor, but I also seem to recall Clara herself opening the TARDIS with a snap at some point.
@@TheKingofall42 all the time
@@attckonutube Given that the TARDIS can pilot herself, she should be able to unlock her own doors.
18:24 As a huge fan of the 3rd doctor era this short bit about the brigadier tugged at my heart strings more than the actual episode did
Still amazes me how people missed Capaldi's subtle nod to Jon Pertwee's worzel Gumage with the tea cup and saucer.
I missed that, although I'm familiar with Worzel Gummidge. I'd just assumed Capaldi had picked it up from an earlier generation, as my paternal grandfather and maternal great-grandfather used to drink tea that way :)
"Dont cremate me" always felt like it was the result of someone browsing the SCP wiki late at night and wanted to incorporate that sort of tone into the show.
Also what the story does not take into account either is that in human culture, there are many concepts of what happens when you die. Some even don't include an afterlife but straight-up reincarnation into another body, either into their own family as descendents or into another person no matter the relation. First, these people must be confused and scared as hell that things transpired contrary to what they have believed their entire life and secondly, it also puts our western concept of an afterlife before all else when the 3W things applies to not only all people from Earth but to future people from other worlds who may have a completely different concept about life after death. Also, does this mean that only those people get uploaded into the matrix who believe in an afterlife and not in something else after death?
The Promised Land subplot doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense, but I think Missy just scoops up whoever from whenever she feels considering the Nethersphere was sought as far back as the Crusades and into the far future with the Daleks’ war on humanity.
@@DuelaDent52 I like to think her Yandere obsession with the Doctor makes it so she just snatches people from the places or eras he's been to just to fuck with him later. Like she'd prop up Rory or Amy in front of him just to make him suffer.
God that rant on 3W was worth the six year wait. Even I wasn’t expecting it to go on that long.
My favourite jokes in these episodes are the Malcom Tucker reference and "I'm sorry, you left this behind on one of your previous attempts."
But... it's not a scam. Danny FEELS the cold. You hear a man screaming after being cremated. They go out of their way to tell you that the 3W thing was real.
You can't really use that as concrete evidence. They are in a Matrix and the end goal of this plan is to convince the people to turn their emotions off. They are not above using trickery to convince people that things are bad.
If Danny feels cold would he not feel his broken neck or whatever? He was hit and killed instantly by a car. Would be not feel a cold metal slab on his back? Can you feel stuff within the Matrix thing? What if you get punched in the Matrix? Do you feel that? When the cremated people are cremated what does being ash scattered across a river or whatever feel like?
It makes no sense and honestly I was expecting the twist to be Danny realising it was a scam and acting accordingly. Note those screams and stories could so easily have been fabricated by Missy
@@lovablesnowman The fact that Danny has to be tricked or scammed at all before being sent back to his real body in Cyber-Form is proof that this Danny had free will and agency and is actually himself. The fact that Danny's mind was converted and sent back from the Matrix to his original body is proof that there's a legitimate connection between 3W and the real bodies.
The afterlife Missy created was very much legitimate. The pain might be a trick to force people to convert themselves, but these are undeniably real human minds.
My question is more why does Missy need them to give their consent?
The Cybermen have never needed consent and Missy’s plan isn’t specifically something that requires they’re individuality remain. So why oh why does she not just have them consumed by the NetherSphere after death?
It adds nothing to her scheme
@@ItsButterBean1020 I have absolutely no idea to be honest.
15:31 no she needed 3W so she could have a base of operations in 21st century to prepare the invasion. It also exists as a big arrow sign to draw the Doctor in. Remember, the whole point of this is to give him an army.
Is it my imagination or is Moffat really bad at writing Ladies in relationships?
Moffat is just terrible at writing women full-stop. I'd say the only female character he did justice was Bill, and that's just because he couldn't make her fit into his weirdly prominent fetishes that plague the show. There's always been a joke floating around that Moffat barely hides his kinks in his writing, but I honestly don't think it's even a joke
Seriously, I'm struggling to think of another major female character he's written that hasn't made at least one cuckold joke or something similar.
See even Bill mostly gets done dirty because while I love her, she’s not that complex beyond fun
I don't really see how some people experiencing cremation is darker than the general body horror concept of the cybermen or many other things in the show that aren't noted for being too dark.
Or the fact that Slitheen literally scoop out people's remains, probably have a nibble on them, and then wear their skin. I think that's worse than the don't crimate me thing, plus the Slitheen were aimed towards kids.
And when the Mondasians came back they implied they were in constant pain which I found creepy as hell.
@@tinykemper2561 Bruh come the fuck on.
Implying every human in existence cremated is burned alive in pain they can't die from is worse on scale than any Cyber-ization of a few fictional characters.
idk why everyone comes out of the woodwork when a reviewer rightfully criticizes a line that turns the entire Whoniverse into a 40k hellscape.
Just a few more points worth discussing.
16:39 Why exactly is a show from this year being used as a critique of this 6 year old episode? Also it's fine to reuse concepts, it's what you do with them that counts. The 'digital afterlife' in Silence in the Library is used in a completely different context to the one in this story.
16:50 I dont think these scenes are really comparable. Sure the basic joke structure is the same, but the intent and context are completely different. Ten is excited due to unexpectedly meeting (and snogging) a historical figure he admires. Clara is clearly teaching a class, with a small nod to both her time travel and sexuality. I realize spotting the formula of their delivery could be irritating, but you yourself call Kate a great character. Why exactly does this small comedic moment ruin that?
18:30 I dont think the Doctor's relationship with the Brigadier is quite as rosy as you paint it. In Inferno the Doctor clearly states. "Miss Shaw may have the misfortunate to work for you, Brigadier. I am a free agent." I agree with you more on the Salute line.
“Don’t cremate me” admittedly sounds like an interesting idea… For Torchwood.
Maybe, possibly Big Finish at a stretch
30:10 No Doctor you're not a idiot, But Steven Moffat is, Actually that line of dialogue can sum up the whole 2 Parter in a nutshell.
Totally agree. What the f was Moffatt playing at with that awful, legacy destroying shit with the Brig? Utterly diabolical.
One of the biggest crimes is Matt smith never got to verse the master on screen
While a convoluted point, leading an army isn't really out of a character for The Master, they more often than not have an army of whatever monster they're working with that week.
The clues kind of in the name 'Master'
my issue was I could never see ANY version of the Master handing a cyber army to the Doctor and not be interested in using it themselves. Tho missy not being like most versions of the Master is kind of her arc
@@Ben-vf5gk Sure, although as you say this is a exploration of a different side to the character, about how they feel about their friendship with the Doctor.
@@skeeter2420 Yeah it's just that previous incarnations managed to explore that friendship much better whilst still retaining their ambition. I don't think any scene in Death in Heaven comes close to the phone call scene between 10 and Simm in Sound of Drums.
@@Ben-vf5gk Fair enough, I'd agree that Death in Heaven isn't the best exploration of the relationship out there but I wouldn't say it's out of character, just a different aspect of the character
I think there's a difference between the Doctor refusing to turn on Danny's emotional inhibitor (and thereby going against his principles by participating in the conversion process which he detests- an action which the episode depicts as questionable via Danny's comments) and offering to kill the Master, a villainous character.
Not liking it is one thing, but ignoring stuff just to be able to say “for some reason” isn’t fair. I counted at least 6 times you said something wasn’t explained when it was explained basically 5 seconds before it happened
And you didn't list any of them.
@@dirrdevillol
Oh god...was Dracula THIS YEAR?!
22:18 Oooooooor, Danny’s response isn’t referring to this story but the very long arc they go through together throughout S8 in which Danny clearly doesn’t like The Doctor or the pain he creates in his wake. Hence ‘shame on you, Doctor’.
Steven Moffat: Doctor Who is for kids
Also Steven Moffat: *Implies SCP-2718 is canon to the Whoniverse*
What’s that?
@@rogersstinson4019 It's basically, when you die, you keep feeling pain even though you don't exist anymore.
My thinking for the cremation thing is so there's more bodies to convert. Except this is basically headcannon despite being logical its never used in that way. It's not used as hey I need a reason to ensure that there's as many bodies as possible" it's written as "Hey lets give the viewers some existential dred horror"
Thanks for breaking the who afterlife nonsense down. It bugged me from the original airing, and it bugged me more how people liked it
The Moffat era cyber stories all nick an element from the expanded universe don’t they?
Closing time (an attempt to weaponise cyber mats against the cybermen like in spare parts)
Nightmare in silver (chess playing cyberman at a fair)
Dark water/death in heaven (cybermen weaponising rain like in the flood)
Wet/doctor falls (origin of the cybermen- spare parts)
19:29 Yeah this scene annoys me aswell, and the excuse that the defenders come up with are just as stupid, "oh well Missy obviously hypnotised the guards!" THEN YOU FUCKING SHOW THAT. Don't have the guards as voiceless extras who just get killed half a second AFTER the Master escapes. Either have a shot of the guards looking visibly dazed by hypnotism, or have Missy slowly walk up to Osgood, who orders the guards to apprehend her, and then show them dropping their guns, or maybe point their guns at Osgood or something. Claiming that Moffat intended for the guards to be hypnotised IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH
Agreed. Show, don't tell.
The only positive thing I have to say about This awful story is I saw Gravity Falls for the first time when I changed the channel.
Something I don't get in this story is how just taking the cyber helmet face plate off made Danny's voice go back to normal...Lytton had a cyberman voice when he was semi converted as did the semi converted people in Real Time
Moffat would later reuse the ‘feel cremation’ idea I’m Dracula. And it is executed much better in that.
Also, the cyber army could have helped in the care-taker
Adric might not have become a cybermen because he died in a time period before humans had an after life, and he's not actually human.
Why do the cybermen actually need the corpses? Like, what different will a few bones make to the function of this cybernetic suit?
Why in quite a few NuWho stories they come across as more robot than cyborg tbh
This review sums up all the problems with the Moffat era. The characters and their motivations simply do not make sense; so much dialogue is self-congratulatory wank by the writer; the themes are "profound" until you scratch the surface for a millisecond
The 1996 movie that barely anyone talks about is a Master Story and features the eighth doctor who doesn’t either encounter the Daleks nor the Cybermen except big finish stories.
In terms of the Doctor needing an army, well here’s what I have to say.
It’s similar to Series 1, the Doctor didn’t won the day on his own.
1. While he was talking to the Half Faced man, Clara and the Pasternoster gang were keeping the other Clockwork droids busy.
2. Clara and Journey Blue helped the Doctor find Rusty’s memories.
3. The Doctor needed assistance from Clara and Robin Hood to fire that arrow at the engine.
4. If the walking paradox’s that is Orson Pink wasn’t there at the end of the universe, the Doctor would have been sucked out into space and Clara helped comfort the Doctor when he was a child hiding in that barn on Gallifrey.
5. The Doctor needed assistance to get through the tight security during the Time Heist of Karabraxos.
6. Due to Danny Pink’s soldier expertise, that bought the Doctor enough time to override the Skovox Blitzer.
7. Clara, Courtney and that other astronaut (I can’t remember her name) were forced by the Doctor to make a decision on whether they needed to kill the creature inside of the Moon or not.
8. Perkins and everyone else helped the Doctor out with defeating the Mummy on the Orient Express.
9. The Doctor was stuck inside his Tardis, so Clara and Rigsy basically saved the day in Flatline.
10. That little girl was able to communicate with the tree spirits and tell everyone in Planet Earth to stop burning down the trees.
True, not all of them were good. But that’s basically was the arc Series 8 was going for. The Doctor didn’t need an army, but his friends are able to help him out.
As for the “I never needed an army. I am an idiot. With a box and screwdriver.” could have worded better.
Something like this. “I am the Doctor! I don’t need an army. Never needed one. All I need is my box, my screwdriver and my friends to help me win the day when I need it. So does that answer your question, Clara? That make me a good man?”
Mastercember
1. Terror of the Autons
2. The Mind of Evil
3. The Claws of Axos
4. Colony in Space
5. The Daemons
6. The Sea Devils
7. The Time Monster
8. Frontier in Space
9. The Deadley Assassian
10. The Keeper of Traken
11. Logopolis
12. Castrovalva
13. Time-Flight
14. The Kings Demons
15. The Five Doctors
16. Planet of Fire
17. The Mark of the Rani
18. The Ultimate Foe
19. Survival
20. The Movie
21. Utopia/Sounds of Drum/Last of the Timelords
22. The End of Time
23. Dark Water/Death in Heaven
24. The Magicans Aprentice/The Witch’s Familar
25. World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls
26. Spyfall
27. Acension of the Cybermen/The Timeless Children
There's only one problem with the list, He already did The 5 Doctors, Dark Water/Death in Heaven, The Magician Apprentice/ The Witches Familiar, World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls, And Acension of the Cybermen/The Timeless Children during Dalekcember and Cybercember.
Oh watching this reminds me of the rage and hate I had for this story and for Clara. You brought up a lot of points I agree with, one thing I felt was that how Clara has a double standard. She would condem trillions across the universe for the sake of her boyfriend. But at the end she has the gall to blame all the masters victims on the Doctor. When A) the Doctor has tried to destroy the master before and it hasn't worked. and b) by that logic you would be the one responsible for all those the Doctor wouldn't be able to help. So which is it you cow? You can't have it both ways.
Great analysis that solidify the "well I think I like it but why doesn't I feel like I liked it" feeling I had when I originally watched this
That damaged Invasion Cyberman head is the only good thing to come out of this. I’m surprised Steven managed to remember which version of the head was needed given his usual track record of intellect.
It's hardly fair to criticise this story for having beats that Moffat would reuse afterwards in Dracula and Twice Upon A Time.
To be fair Dracula was a psychological horror show aimed watched by older audiences. The cremation in Dracula was actually kinda fucked up but something expected if you'd been watching the show, unlike this scene which was from an science-fantasy action family show from an era defined by kid-friendly fairy-tales.
I so look forward to you posting these every day.thank you so much.a brilliant job very well done
I agree with about 90% of your rants, in fact I actually forgot how much of this story I disliked, I must have blacked stuff out. But...I am gonna be one of those to defend (partly) the 3 words thing. I don't think they were saying the 'afterlife' existence was a con, but the idea that the consciousness feels what happens to the body after death, the idea that if a body is burned they will feel it after. Someone else pointed out that, if this were true, why wasn't Danny's neck still broken or ribs hurting or whatever injuries he suffered from the car crash? Same for the kid, he didn't seem to be in any pain. The effect of feeling 'cold' could just be something installed from Missy's matrix tech and likewise the voice is also faked. If Missy's device is destroyed then presumably the whole afterlife goes with it and people are just...gone, nothing, as they would be. But we're never given any closure on that because, as you say, stupid story is stupid and yeah I really can't defend anything else.
Great points. I agree.
Before: I've been waiting for this review for 6 years!
After: & it was worth the wait! Though I now feel depressed as I remember how crap this finale was. Definitely the low point of this marathon.
One theory I have about this story (and it's most likely wrong), is that there really is a proper afterlife outside of Missy's sphere, but she was able to use the Time Lord technology to essentially kidnap the souls of the dying, with her afterlife lasting so long as her "harddrive" was functional (plus Tardis tech to go beyond that scope), with everyone being freed to go to the real afterlife whenever it was finally destroyed. So, I guess I'm saying, it was a horrid limbo.
I'd agree with that. Missy faking an afterlife or not has no impact on the existence of one. I'm not even a believer in afterlife. But some simulation she puts peoples' minds into to suffer after death does not affect it either way. It's an extension of their lives in a miserable fucking way.
One thing that was unusual was to see The Doctor beating up his wife instead of caressing her like he normally does.
EDIT: And also they should have shown The Doctor actually free-falling into the Tardis, it was weird that they ran the build up and then didn't give us the money shot.
There’s a lesser known sci-fi/horror book series called Psychomech, by Brian Lumley. The whole spirit-linked-to-body and cremation thing is done in the first entry (from 1984) so, so much better, because it’s upfront with the utterly heinous implications. The character it happens to is a vile individual, yet you still feel for them because OH BOY it’s not pleasant.
I think many people here fail to understand a distinction of something being shocking/dark with good narrative choice. Something as broad as all of humanity being forced to suffer after death is pretty nihilistic and sadistic. It's one thing to have a character die, it's another to have them ruthlessly tortured in some essentially magical way.
I agree that it's callous as a writer to rewrite all of Doctor Who as having the entire human race across all time be tortured in the afterlife. Essentially, Hell is suffering in the afterlife, so Steven Moffat essentially argues every human being goes to Hell in the canon. It's also stupid pragmatically. Missy abducts all of human kind across all time and space. That's a huge feat for even a group of Time Lords. Unless the Doctor's plans changed what Missy did, and we don't purge this terrible story from our headcanon, Missy's plans are still in action even after the events of the story as they do occur in the future of humanity as well. That's why your story's scope should never be all-encompassing to begin with.
Moffat doesn't respect the work of other writers or characters.
I haven't watched the review yet, just wanna say that this is gonna be cathartic for me. I used to like it, then actually thinking about it just ages it so badly, like much of Series 8 and 9. The narrative is just complete nonsense, Michelle Gomez is great but the character is just a bunch of witty lines and dear me, Death in Heaven's structure and pacing and everything... In the Forest of the Night to Witch's Familiar is probably the worst run of episodes of all time time for me, and this COULD be the nadir. Although it's all made up for in two season's time with Capaldi's best story. Too bad we had to wait so long to get it.
I completely agree with everything you said. I honestly believe that run of 6 episodes ITFOTN to TWF is probably the reason why the viewing figures went down during Capaldi’s era (along with kill the moon, sleep no more & hell bent).
@@BH-98 Kill the Moon is terrible but every Doctor has a wonky story in their first season so it's understandable. But when the finale, special, then premier are all just as bad, we have a problem. And in my opinion Series 9 isn't that much better than Series 8. The Whithouse two parter is a stroke of genius and the Zygon two parter is flawed but admirable but everything else barring Heaven Sent is just a mess.
@@benw4409 I included kill the moon in there as it was the start of the whole “doctor who is too political” complaint that people have. It & in the forest of the night were bad episodes that portrayed it political message in a poor & unsubtle way. The show has always been political but when it’s done badly there & later episodes such as orphan 55 follow its example, it completely warped the fandom into becoming incredibly toxic.
@@benw4409 Having a bad story is one thing; you can write off a boring or stupid adventure. But then when you say the moon is an egg; that's there in every story before and after now and spreads its stupidity about, which is Moffat's worst habit. I'd rather have an episode with the Doctor stuck in a broom closet, which you can just forget about it later.
How about you do a Master marathon in December?
Now that I think about it, the fact that they may B able to contact dead companions to B inside agents is never brought up, that's kind've a letdown.
if I rewrote this episode I would not have the cybermen in it at all but rather a return of the Minotaurs from the God Complex whom are bringing back the dead to make the Earth their latest colony in their empire with Missy siding with the Minotaurs due to the terrible treatment their cousins the Nimons faced at the hands of the Time Lords also I would have Missy under the alias of Reverend McMasters
I think the don't cremate me line would have worked slightly better if
1) Missy hadn't been doing this to every person through-out the entirety of history, and maybe only a small period
2) We have a scene of the Doctor confronting Missy about this and being devastated at hearing that Missy has put these people through so much pain, since in the episode it's shrugged off pretty quickly in favour of battling the Cybermen and Clara's subplot
Didn't bother me in the slightest found it creepy. And is a common horror trope
@@Mark-nh2hs I've got no issue with the content, it's the fact that Death In Heaven just throws these ideas aside as soon as it establishes them
@@yourfriendlycynic654 I wasn't making a dig it makes me laugh how people get so angry and disgusted by the Cremation bit yet people converting into Mondasian Cybermen living in constant chronic pain cry for death is perfectly fine and no complaints let's say for all those people who suffer from debilitating chronic pain all their lives... I find it so hypocritical lol.
Oh the second part of Dark Water was just a shit storm lol
@@Mark-nh2hs Fair enough
It's not about whether it bothered you. It's about does it work as a story? We get it. You're a big, tough guy not afraid of anything.@@Mark-nh2hs
It's funny... because this is my favorite Modern Who Story 😅
Oh same it’s one of my absolute favourites
It baffles me to think that for someone who knows so much about Doctor Who and has it in him to write really strong stories, Steven Mofatt fundamentally misunderstood the relationship between The Doctor and Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart. The way they play off that moment in the cemetery where The Doctor salutes the Cyberman-Brigadier was not only a slap in the face of the Brigadier's character but also tone-deaf in that it mistook a moment with morbid implications for one with grandeur. Furthermore, it felt like fan service for the sake of it.
I could not agree with you more about this story. I had forgotten how bad it was until I watched this review. The trauma is real again!!
I can almost see what they were going for with the Cyber-Brig, but it fell short. And World Enough in Time/The Doctor Falls is far superior in every respect. As a Cyberman story, as a Master story, and as a companion departure. (even if, like Death in Heaven, the bus comes back)
Yeah, I had issues with the "I am owed better" line as well ..
Those two guards in the back, they could've easily solved that by hypnotizing them like we saw in Nightmare in Silver. Let's say that Missy has two Cyber-mites in the cap of her lipstick or in her bracelet that stop the guards from reacting.
11:11 Torchwood literally did this first with miracle day
Right down to being conscious after cremation
You know what I really hate about this story? it's not necessarily the conclusion of the Doctor's season long arc, I don't mind that. And while it's irritating to have the Cybermen be reduced to The Master's minions, that reveal is still great and I do quite like this version of the character. Honestly I don't hate this as much as you do. Even so, There are many things that don't work, but the worst one? Clara pretending to be The Doctor. On paper it's whatever, a way to bluff for her life, but in execution it's the last line before the intro and they even put Jenna Coleman's name up front like they're trying to convince us this is really some big twist. Not only would it not work cause we KNOW Clara and her role by this point, that was the entire mystery last time, but it's utterly meaningless. It's a big "shock" thing with no payoff. And I feel like that sums up Moffat's worst traits as a writer, that scene right there. It's "cool thing" or "shocking thing" that DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING.
I think the idea of why Missy was using the Nethersphere to convert people was to get them to consentually sign up to the conversion in order to relieve them of their suffering. A bit like The Flood.
Same problem applies here though, because the Cybermen don't usually care about consent. And it seems a bit redundant to get consent from dead people.
Also, shout-out to the next time trailer for this story implying that Clara was actually going to turn out to be a villain pretending to be a companion the whole time and betraying The Doctor. Y'know, lying.
"And it seems a bit redundant to get consent from dead people."
You're speaking as someone who wouldn't set a world on fire to watch the soot fall. She had a whole population of people to torture, before desecrating their corpse, which may well have amused her.
@@rog2224 I suppose that works with Missy pulling the strings. Though now you mention it, it's hilarious to imagine the Cybermen just letting her do it like "Ok, whatever floats your boat, lady" 😂
This is just my understanding of the plot of the episode.
The idea that people feel pain even after death is a con set up by Missy. The only people who feel pain after death are those who have had their dying consciousness uploaded into the Nethersphere by Missy. It is Missy herself who is hurting them. She is doing this to convince those in the Nethershere to sign a contract allowing her to remove their emotions. Why Missy needs consent is admittedly not explained but I think this is par for the course with Dr Who, the how of the big weird Sci-fi concepts are rarely explained .
The reason Danny has his emotions is because he does not sign the contract. You see it in some of the footage in your review, he sees the boy he accidently killed in the reflection of the screen and decides he should live with those feelings. Thus, when resurrected Danny is in a Cyber body but hasn't had his emotions removed yet. Now this is purely speculative but i would guess the Brigadier would have refused the deal too which is why as a Cyberman he has control of his faculties.
I think this explains most of your larger plot inconsistency issues. As for the character inconsistencies I don't think 12 acts out of character at all. Danny has frequently compared him as a general unwilling to get his hands dirty across all of series 8. Furthermore, throughout the entire 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th Doctors eras it has been pointed out that he often inadvertently moulds his companions into soldiers and leaves them to make the hard decisions. Journeys End is the episode that most bluntly gives this interpretation. 12 himself goes onto to ponder if he has turned Clara into a worse person multiple times in Series 9 and he specifically leaves her to make the hard decision in Kill the Moon, so I think him doing the same in Death in Heaven makes sense with his characterisation at this point.
As for the darker content, I agree whole heartedly that a full content warning should have appeared before the episode. I think all episodes of Dr Who should have a content warning really and it pisses me off how behind the times the BBC are with these kinds of things. I am also really sorry that people have personally attacked you over the years as someone's opinions on a piece of fiction are not something to be abused over. I hope you don't see this comment as another attack in turn. it's just this is a story I personally have really enjoyed and I think my understanding of the plot and themes are just as valid as yours are.
This is the best head canon. And they should've have made more clear in this story.
*Mastercember 2021.*
Fantastic review! I agree with everything Mr Tardis says in this video. The whole story is a complete mess. I believe I watched it twice at the time to try to make sense of it. Since then I have never rewatched it like so many other stories in this era of Doctor Who. Just to put this into context I still regularly rewatch Dr Who from the 80s 🤷🏻♂️
What a god-awful finale. So much of the Moffat era left a bad taste in my mouth when compared to Series 1+3 (my personal peak seasons). Seeing the genuine humanity of the 13th Doctor is such a breath of fresh air.
now they'll see the real you
@@rennythespaceguy7285 Great reply lol
@@zoewells3160 Forgot I even said this, I genuinely have no idea how anyone could think that about the Moffat Doctors
Moff obviously didn’t watch Resurrection of the Daleks, had he; the army notion wouldn’t have been written
Not watching Resurrection of the Daleks is a good thing.
thanks so much for putting words to how I feel about Missy as the master I have often found it difficult to understand her charter and how I feel about her
After 40 minutes of this review... I still don't get your issues with this story. Why wouldn't The Master think that The Doctor needs an army? He's fundamentally unable to understand The Doctor's morality. What's the big problem with converting dead? Cybermen were used in far bleaker ways. And yes, every single companion became a Cyberman and most likely they all did their best to help save the world as well as end this afterlife nightmare, just like The Brig did! How is them being heroes a problem?
@The Reverse I never said he is an awful reviewer, nor I find his opinion invalid. I do however not understand the points he raises here and why would these things in particular bother anyone so much. But it happens, everyone is different and we may completely fail to understand each other sometimes.
Regarding the companions, a fair few of those people died irl, so the idea of their corpses being used as puppets is a bit disrespectful. Some people just have a more sensitive relationship with death, so it’s understandable that this concept, in the context of a family show, might be too ghoulish for a lot of viewers. As this guy noted, it’s a much more Torchwood idea. I personally love this two-parter, but as a kid it really upset me, and not in a fun way like Blink.
And as usual with dark doctor who concepts, the SCP Foundation copy is somehow even darker lmao
I'm 100% with you on that horrific don't cremate me sub-plot (or basically still feeling any kind of pain after death whether it be from a autopsy or from a bullet or stab wound) I remember first seeing Dark Water back in 2014 after being bed ridden with a stomach bug all day and thought, Oh a nice bit of Dr Who and a cyberman story at that will do me good... And it just made me feel mentally worse... In fact this god awful story comes to my mind now when ever I hear the word cremate, it especially disturbs me as all my relatives who have passed away since this story aired were cremated when they died... Season 8 was not a enjoyable season for me and this final was primaevally why...
Always have a weird time rewatching stories like this.The production, directing and acting firing on all cylinders...whilst the writing is just confusing and lackluster. Especially when there's a few cherry moments giving a glimpse of what could have been. Never know how I feel when it's all wrapped up. Just a resounding 'Oh?'
Clara died in Name of the Doctor. The Clara in 50th onwards is a different one. Hence characterization, careers, boyfriend etc. Also why Missy commented on picking her well, wasn't the first Clara she chose. Headcanon rules
Also why Clara in 8 and 9 send to forget things she should remember
I'll take that as part of my headcanon.
I'm sorry but there are so many story's that are darker that noone complains about, it just seems like people are biased towards the capaldi era as half the arguments are "dark so bad" and people act like that his entire era is awful because it is dark
that first season with Peter Capaldi was a struggle to get through and this two parter was when i stopped watching DW regularly as a fan after 35 years. an absolute sh!tshow! all of the goodwill from the 50th anniversary p!ssed away in a few weeks. what on earth were they thinking when they broadcast this let alone writing scripts, preproduction, etc..... from what i hear it got worse after this too :(
Nah, it’s generally agreed that 12’s stories improved as time went on. He only really hit his stride during his last season, after Clara had been dumped and the show was allowed to start a new chapter, which makes me feel terrible for Capaldi. He is without doubt the most overqualified actor to inherit the role and played second banana for most of his tenure, sidelined for exhaustingly stupid storylines and an unlikeable, overexposed companion. There’s parallels with 6 and 7 in there, certainly in the way the actors were treated, but there’s little beauties in 12’s era, too. Give Season 10 a watch if you like streamlined, clever, uncomplicated and nostalgic Who.
I got whammed on one of the midroll ads
Damn you good content!
Cyberbrig is, for me, the worst moment in doctor who’s 57 year history. I don’t know how a man who is as evidently intelligent and talented as Moffat could ever consider writing that
Worse than the N word being said in The Celestial Toymaker?
Well, yes, that's worse, but in a different way. Using a slur is just bad in most contexts, Doctor Who or not, (I think it's reasonable in an adult historical like a Western, especially if it's portrayed as the hate it is). But the Cyberbrig is the worst Doctor Who idea in Doctor Who. @@zoewells3160
I wish Missy was the Black Guardian that would have made a better twist
Came back to this and I feel like there's some bad wroting but I also feel MR TARDIS is a bit too harsh on the story. It's a finale that works if you have watched all the episodes in the series up to this point. I think Missy lied about her army being every single human that ever died, but rather she specifically targetted people that the Doctor or Clara had met. The Doctor calls out the afterlife thing as a lie and I agree. I believe that Missy wanted to manipulate all of the Doctor's former associates into willingly becoming cybermen. So she tricked them into thinking that they can feel the painnof being on fire 24/7, hemce the huge emphasis on no cremation. She wanted to torture the people physically and mentally into giving up their emotions and free thought, basically turning them into cybermen because the master is a sadistic motherfucker. Danny never pressed the button so qhile he physically got turned into a cybermen, he still could feel emotions and pain.
I wont say the episode is perfect. For instance, I do think the Doctor letting Clara kill Danny was out of character. I just wanted to clarify what I thought was Moffat's intention with the cybermen army.
Regarding the "Only Organic Matter can be seen through it" rule:
It stands to reason that most of the Cybermen in the memorial still have there flesh.
Using the Dark Water in swimming pools would (Assumedly) show you a pool of Skeletons.
Except Doctor Chang's skin can still be seen through Dark Water, just not his watch.
@@carlosalmonacid8958 The rules are inconsistent
So, what's the point of hiding the inorganic material. Why pose giant skeletons in tanks with see-through windows to hide Cyber-Men, you know instead of just hiding them?
Completely agree. This story was grotesque nonsense and it didn't just disappoint me, it angered me. This review only scratched the surface of all the problems, plot holes and missed opportunities with this story. Here's a few off the top of my head:
You have former The Thick of It cast mates Peter Capaldi and Chris Addison in the same story and they don't share a single scene together??? Is that clever or stupid? Wouldn't it have been better if it was Addison's character that the Doctor threatened to hit with his shoe?
Why introduce the idea that Clara is one of Orson Pink's ancestors earlier in the season and then don't do anything with it?
Is THAT the sendoff that both the late great Nicholas Courtney and the Brigadier deserved???
When Moffat's good he's very good but when he's bad he manages to be both terrible and smug.
Moffat's descendants in the year 4502 won't forget this awful episode. And they'll still have the same surname as one of their ancestors from millennia ago because that's totally how names work, Moffat.
the nethersphere kind of contradicts the eternal void already established in torchwood
“A wizard did it”
@@KillerMeme lets just spin a wheel and add bonus fates on top of that as options when we die
I NEVER understood the point of making Cybermen out of the already dead, even after watching the episode at the time of broadcast when I was 14. Like...the whole point of them is that they're humans who've paid the ultimate cost to CONTINUE surviving, and their desire to convert more humans is simply the faulty logic of an emotionless compassionless mind. Collecting and preserving human minds that have already died, giving them the OPTION of mental conversion for...some reason, and then putting those minds BACK into their respective now-converted bodies is an awful lot of steps and liability given that Missy's end goal is basically to just fuck with the Doctor by offering him an army. The converting dead biological matter thing makes sense, but keeping the human minds in the equation as well feels entirely illogical in-universe.
This story is pretty rotten throughout, but it could have been salvaged at least a little if it was a Master-centric story and the Cybermen were replaced with some monster-of-the-week robots who convert dead bodies and operate on AI. Still pretty grim, but not as existentially terrifying as what the story in its current form presents us with.
Absolutely agreed. And a neglected point. Cybermen are not some weird, perverted idealist race like the Daleks. They just want to live and chose this horrible measure of living despite all the downsides. If they had the option for a simulated reality with their intact selves, it'd be an option they could pursue.
Lets just forget about series 8 and 9 ok. Well at least the next ones better if only it had been Capaldi's last episode.
Yeah i thought the whole felling stuff when your dead thing was kinda shocking and actually spooked me. World enough in time is much worse though. Definitely the most chilling new who cybermen story.
I legit hated this finale when it first aired. Dark Water was very very dark and depressing & then Death in Heaven was just another rushed episode. Also I hated the flying cyber men.
I can not describe at how much I despise this two-parter. This was the one to make me Hate Steven Moffat's writing and his view of Doctor Who as a whole. I know he has written SOME good stories here and there, but I'm sorry this story along with many others that are well known for being infamously crap. this is horrendous. The Scene with Clara blackmailing the doctor feels noneffective to me because even if clara did throw all the TARDIS keys in reality, all the Doctor would have to do is snap his fingers to open the TARDIS doors! Moffat made that plot device and he doesn't acknowledges his own past ideas!
And while I can Strongly agree with Mr TARDIS with the Whole "Don't Cermet me" being really bad taste and a Horrible move both Moffat and the BBC for not giving a single fuck about it, and also could possible scar kids watching it as well as effect those who's relatives have been cremated. But the scene that absolutely and truthfully pissed me off (yes the Cyber-brig also pissed me off as well if your wondering) was the battered Cyberman helmet from The Invasion. Now I LOVE References to Classic Who as the next guy but the execution to that scene felt so soulless and bland, with Kate Stewart while doing a no-nonsense "I don't give a fuck" attitude to the cybermen while literally tossing the classic head on the floor like it served nothing as just there to make the fans happy. I know she uses it to let the cybermen know that UNIT have defeated the Cybermen before, its the execution and deliver to it felt quick, uninteresting and kinda soulless. Like there no love to it like the show is discarding the classic years because they need to move on with the plot that moffat wrote because moffats writing is so much better than any symbolic any happy memory to the classic years that this show was build up upon, The Best way to explain why this scene feels like the BBC and moffat are literally throwing bone or chew toy to the whovian's faces is because a previous Fantastic episode did this a LOT Better!
Enter Robert Shearman's Dalek from Series 1. Immediately as the episode starts in the alien Museum we are greeted with not just a slitheen's stuffed arm but also opposite to it is a Cyberman helmet from Revenge on display. The 9th Doctor sees this and feels Reminiscent & Nostalgic for it, he takes his time with it! and that's why this scene is more affective, IT TAKES IT'S TIME. It's not too long or too short like in Death in Heaven. It admires the past, the Doctor reaction is how a lot of old fans from the Classic seasons felt when see it. the slitheen arm display put opposite to the Classic Cyberhelmet is symbolic cause it bridges the two together and filling the gap, bring Classic and New Who Together.
If Death in Heaven had one of the New Cybermen pick up the Old Helmet and having a moment with it like it's looking at old friend or comrade. then at least there would be something to bring the two together. But No Kate just yeets it like a binbag and the crap plot continues. Fuck this Two Parter, I Hate Moffat, I hate his written and I hate Clara.
Why would a Cybermen feel melancholy over the severed head of an old model? Remember that they have no emotions. Nor would Kate feel anything for the empty head of a monster.
7:18 She is owed better for contributing to save worlds, universe, and the most important person in all of time and space a crap ton of times. It's not really that complex an answer. A person at their breaking point in denial with a potential way to reverse the situation is going to have childlike thoughts, be it "I don't deserve this" or "They didn't deserve this". It wasn't not following up on that, it was showing not telling.
I'd even just say people feeling they deserve better than just having their loved ones be dead is pretty reasonable in general. Being a companion does open options, of course.
If I was rewriting this story, I’d have the whole ‘don’t cremate me’ be the Master’s Hoax. If the Master made up that people in the Afterlife feel pain in order to make them willing Cybermen, not unlike World Enough And Time, that whole story would be improved, in my opinion. That should’ve been the trick.
That's literally already in the story but OK
That literally is the story
Agreed.
I like that Santa is real lmao
It’s unfortunate to me that Doctor Who will never truly be able to explore darker themes because of audience backlash. It happened in Capaldis era and it happened with Tom Bakers first three seasons, leading to Hinchcliff being forced out.
There are shades of grey. A few horrible deaths here and there are great. But I can't imagine something more perverse than what Moffat did here: condemned all of humanity, past, present, and future into Hell: suffering after death.
Dark Water/Death in Heaven is one of my favourite Doctor Who stories.
The Cyberman reveal is classy. Missy is just brilliant.
The death and resolution of Danny ties in with the themes of the series: Promises/Lies, Soldiers/Officers.
And Missy's aims match perfectly with the last thing that happened between The Doctor and The Master: they were briefly allies against Rassilon and the Time Lords, as they found out that The Master was a victim as much as he's a villain. Missy, in her mad sick way, just wants to be friends and bring The Doctor into her world.
The situations are fascinating, the performances and on point, the writing is great, and I'll never understand why there are people who don't love this story.
I have to agree with everything you say, despite what you might see in the few comment sections like this Dark Water was very well received generally and Death in Heaven was also fairly well received (although a serious step down from Dark Water)
Two of my favourite all time episodes!
I mean if you watch the review you might understand people's points.
I personally strongly dislike this story.
@@oliverlawrence261 i think that can be said with most moffat storys as his time as show runner great build up terrible resolution he really has a habit of dropping the ball but not while in the RTD era because i think maybe RTD could rain moffat in it's when moffat able to do what he wants he goes to far
jackal
season 3 and 4 of sherlock
wedding of river song
hell bent
the monk trilogy
'Bubbly personality masking bossy control freak."