I had the same disappointment with goblin archers. I farmed so many buffs and traits that their armor-piercing damage would be ≈10. This is not bad for 120 models in a squad, but unbuffered Avelorn sisters deal more damage
Empire dosent excel in stacking 1 unit type (other than really expensive tanks and artillery) you are supposed to make combined arms armies with Empire. If you don't have artillery and magic in an empire army you probably should just play chaos. Plus Franzs true doomstack are Reiksguard or Gundermans surefires.
@@samueldisturbing761 well, yes, but it’s still a shame, I invested so much in their upgrade, and in the end they won’t even be able to kill the high-level army of chaos. Moreover, there are few buffs for other greenskin units in comparison with goblins. Even goblins on lava spiders (the only shooting squad with armor-piercing shots for the greenskins, not counting artillery) do not scale from the Grom trough, despite the fact that ordinary goblins on spiders (without armor-piercing) receive bonuses. And the sisters of Avelorn are OP from the start
@@Grrr_tttt Orcs got a problem with AP in general though... for a rush faction they lack a bunch of AP units in comparison with for example warriors of chaos
You want Light Mage + Luminark (with technology) to provide 30% 55 range AoE wardsave passive. (100 is about how big a normal semi-compact frontline is, so optimally you either blob or use two pairs) . Maybe some warrior priests +Archlector for additional wardsave and m.attack buffs, although that would work better with Volkmar, who can get a bunch of 70-80% resistance Flagellants armies. Volkmar is probably best melee Empire faction, Gelt's cracked 200% intensity buffs/debuffs aside. IDK if that's absolutely optimal compared to what you can do with gunpowder, but it is better than stacking six empire captains for +3 MA MD each. And yeah, managing auras and activables is somewhat bothersome, but that's the price for getting empire melee stacks that aren't terrible. While at that, flagellants or Black Rose Knights would be preferable to greatswords for various reasons, but I know we all like trying to make greatswords work, for one reason or another.
You also didn't mention health: hammerers with 100 health/pawn, against greatswords 76 health/pawn. with 49 AP damage on hammerers (without even AI cheats) and 43 AP damage on swords, that's ~44% more hits needed to kill pawn despite low damage difference, which more than compensates 20% squad size diff. Thankfully greatswords melee stats are pretty good and empire has cool auras and stuff.
the Greatswords seem like they should be so much more powerful, i'm not sure why exactly, maybe their picture? or just the fact they use massive swords, either way, i always assume they'll be a lot more powerful than they are
Man wow wtf i tought about doing this stack for Karl Franz but to see them fall "short" in the stats before the Hammerers still astonishing like we know Empire melee is not ther forte but man
@@GutsOfRivia yeah but for the stats only I tought the greatsword gonna do better, seems that the entity hp per unit makes the difference but still they cut trought infantry really fast
@@piazinho93 I mean for their upkeep cost (Especially for Franz) they do hit way above their weight class. They are also very easy to recruit from the start of the campaign.
@@GutsOfRivia yeah, and I agree also that Reiksguard its a much better Doomstack for Franz even his buffs for Carroburg Greatswords coz I mean u can get rich as Empire pretty quick and ofc early game the upkeep matters but by the time u going to get that doomstack you should be printing money as Empire
@@CultistOfkhorne Bonus vs infantry increases weapon strength, Hammerers used to be a higher tier unit and dwarfs are generely meant to be much greater combatants that humans, the fact that the empire can get infantry to match them is pretty wild
i mean the only reason why this is even viable is because of the amount heroes in that army,without those the great swords are getting wrecked ,so i would call this a partial doomstack than a complete one
Hammers: Look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power!
Greatswords might fall short for doomstack but reiksguard with 200+ charge bonus doomstack is something to behold.
All these buffs to still not outperform regular bloodletters.
I had the same disappointment with goblin archers. I farmed so many buffs and traits that their armor-piercing damage would be ≈10. This is not bad for 120 models in a squad, but unbuffered Avelorn sisters deal more damage
@@Grrr_tttt but you can get 3 stacks for 1 stack of sisters
Empire dosent excel in stacking 1 unit type (other than really expensive tanks and artillery) you are supposed to make combined arms armies with Empire. If you don't have artillery and magic in an empire army you probably should just play chaos. Plus Franzs true doomstack are Reiksguard or Gundermans surefires.
@@samueldisturbing761 well, yes, but it’s still a shame, I invested so much in their upgrade, and in the end they won’t even be able to kill the high-level army of chaos. Moreover, there are few buffs for other greenskin units in comparison with goblins. Even goblins on lava spiders (the only shooting squad with armor-piercing shots for the greenskins, not counting artillery) do not scale from the Grom trough, despite the fact that ordinary goblins on spiders (without armor-piercing) receive bonuses. And the sisters of Avelorn are OP from the start
@@Grrr_tttt Orcs got a problem with AP in general though... for a rush faction they lack a bunch of AP units in comparison with for example warriors of chaos
You want Light Mage + Luminark (with technology) to provide 30% 55 range AoE wardsave passive. (100 is about how big a normal semi-compact frontline is, so optimally you either blob or use two pairs) .
Maybe some warrior priests +Archlector for additional wardsave and m.attack buffs, although that would work better with Volkmar, who can get a bunch of 70-80% resistance Flagellants armies. Volkmar is probably best melee Empire faction, Gelt's cracked 200% intensity buffs/debuffs aside.
IDK if that's absolutely optimal compared to what you can do with gunpowder, but it is better than stacking six empire captains for +3 MA MD each. And yeah, managing auras and activables is somewhat bothersome, but that's the price for getting empire melee stacks that aren't terrible.
While at that, flagellants or Black Rose Knights would be preferable to greatswords for various reasons, but I know we all like trying to make greatswords work, for one reason or another.
You also didn't mention health: hammerers with 100 health/pawn, against greatswords 76 health/pawn. with 49 AP damage on hammerers (without even AI cheats) and 43 AP damage on swords, that's ~44% more hits needed to kill pawn despite low damage difference, which more than compensates 20% squad size diff.
Thankfully greatswords melee stats are pretty good and empire has cool auras and stuff.
you can def boost this much further with a nemesis crown
the Greatswords seem like they should be so much more powerful, i'm not sure why exactly, maybe their picture? or just the fact they use massive swords, either way, i always assume they'll be a lot more powerful than they are
Man wow wtf i tought about doing this stack for Karl Franz but to see them fall "short" in the stats before the Hammerers still astonishing like we know Empire melee is not ther forte but man
SHORT!?!??
Empire armies are designed to be supported by magic and artillery. But if you do wanna doomstack with Franz Reiksguard are much better.
@@GutsOfRivia yeah but for the stats only I tought the greatsword gonna do better, seems that the entity hp per unit makes the difference but still they cut trought infantry really fast
@@piazinho93 I mean for their upkeep cost (Especially for Franz) they do hit way above their weight class. They are also very easy to recruit from the start of the campaign.
@@GutsOfRivia yeah, and I agree also that Reiksguard its a much better Doomstack for Franz even his buffs for Carroburg Greatswords coz I mean u can get rich as Empire pretty quick and ofc early game the upkeep matters but by the time u going to get that doomstack you should be printing money as Empire
I mean Hammerers have 20 less models and no BvI, so yeah makes sense
Bvl? But I don't think that a 20 model difference should come with a 100% increase in weapon strength.
@@CultistOfkhorne Bonus vs infantry increases weapon strength, Hammerers used to be a higher tier unit and dwarfs are generely meant to be much greater combatants that humans, the fact that the empire can get infantry to match them is pretty wild
Will you send this to legend?
I can ask, but I don't think it will interest him.
Need a LIfe Wizard to heal SEM
i mean the only reason why this is even viable is because of the amount heroes in that army,without those the great swords are getting wrecked ,so i would call this a partial doomstack than a complete one
This is a hero doomstack with some vanity units, lol.