I’ll never forgot what my Great Grandfather said about Ismay. My grandfather was a soldier in WWII and suffered PTSD the rest of his life. When I was about 9-10 I was telling him about the Titanic (I of course was obsessed) and remarked that Ismay was a coward for not going down with the ship. My Grandfather was taken aback by that and said “you never know what you’ll do when you know you’re about to die.” I never thought of Ismay the same way since. Thank you for posting.
let be honest most people probably would have the done the same thing if they were in his position its easier to say you wouldn't when your not in that position
To OP. Kudos to your great grandfather who taught you something *you should have realized on your own.* Parroting popular opinion is the hallmark of fools and ignoramuses.
I think it would have been a waste if he had not taken the empty spot on a boat. It is a toxic idea that men should die simply for the sake of dying. If Ismay had not taken the spot on the boat it would have been a wasted space.
Idk of anyone who saw combat let alone liberated a death camp that didn't have a life of symptoms shouting PTSD.... my grandfather could barely discuss it and died a suffering alcoholic. sad that only now society will admit that.
Find it interesting that James Cameron knew all this, and still put it in the film because 'people expected to see it' like sir this was a real person, not just a character
Thinking back to the movie, it does seem that Cameron did try to save the character of Ismay a little bit with some tiny things. For instance, when he told the Captain, imagine getting into port a bit early and push the ship a little faster, he did ad the line "course I leave it up to you and your officers." Yes, he did also say a line after that that almost negates the pervious lines but still, its in there. Also when he got into the life boat, he looked around and say there were no other women and children then climbed in.
Reality rarely makes a good Hollywood movie. I think Cameron’s assassination of the character of Officer Murdoch was very unjust. That man saved many lives and went down with the ship.
The real issue is that people often mistake the movie for fact and not fiction. Yes, it was made with a great sense of detail to the real story but at the end, it is a fictional story with fictional characters.
@@fancyfree8599 Cameron tried to justify it by saying that the event in question said more about Hal's character than Murdock's, am sorry but to pin reported but never totally verified stories on an exemplary officer, who launched more lifeboats and saved more lives than any other officer that night- is a low, insulting move, I can picture the conversation that took place between Cameron and his team and imagine that it went something like this: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Cameron:* _"er the film is not tragic enough... we need more..."_ *Random Team Member:* _"oh there's a story about an officer who accepted bribes.. oh and another story about an officer shooting a passenger than then turning gun on himself"_ *Cameron:* _"ooo they are both perfect, love them, they are tragedy within tragedy, they will really pull on the audiences old heartstrings"_ *Random Team Member:* _"yeah but there's no verified 100% proof that these stories are true and no one knows who the supposed officer involved in them was, wouldn't it be better to stick with actual verified history?"_ *Cameron:* _"oh that doesn't matter, we'll still use them as they really speak tragedy"_ *Random Team Member:* _"ok, so shall we just make it some unnamed random officer then?"_ *Cameron:* _"eh, we could but is the audience really going respond to some unknown guy? that's not really going to get them going is it?"_ *Random Team Member:* _"yeah true, so who should it be then?"_ *Cameron:* _" Hmm..._ *light bulb moment*, _I know, we'll make it Murdock"_ *Random Team Member:* _"Murdock??? So you want to use completely unverified stories on a man who diligently saved more lives than any other officer that night? The man whom more than half of titanic survivors owe their very lives to as he had nearly 10 boats launched before the other side had even launched one?"_ *Cameron:* _"Yep, Trust me, Murdock is the perfect one to use"_ *Random Team Member:* _"How do you figure that? Most people view this man as a hero who saved as many lives as he could, an officer who diligently did his duty to the very last moment"_ *Cameron:* _"Exactly, that's why he is perfect for this, its a twist the audience will never see coming, they'll love it and totally understand why we've done it, it makes for great drama"_ *Random Team Member:* _"Right, well we're convinced- we can't see this going wrong at all...lets do it"_ ** -------- *Movie gets released* --------- ** *Team Member:* _"Aww shit, some of the audience is pissed at Murdock's bribe accepting, passenger murdering and then committing suicide scenes.."_ *Cameron:* _"What!! really??? whats wrong with people? those scenes were of great artistic licence, very well crafted, hmm, what to do, what to do?.. I know we'll just explain exactly that, that's bound to calm people down"_ ** ------- *A little time passes* ------- ** *Random Team Member:* _"yeah that didn't work, people are still mad"_ *Cameron:* _"hmm, now that I think about it, maybe using unverified rumours to commit total character assassination of a good dutiful man was wrong and insulting to his memory"_ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah Cameron and his team being massively insulting to William Murdock's character and memory was bad enough, but the way they then tried to excuse it- was even worse... shame on them for that....
I personally agree that the 1997 film showed some mercy in Ismay's 'bad' by correctly depicting him assisting passengers in boarding the boats. He was simply portrayed as a businessman who blindly trusted the invincibility of his mighty ship until he was told 'She is made of iron, and I assure you she can sink'(-one of my favorite lines in the film). His role in the movie probably also represented the general optimism about technical advancement and the future of humanity at that time, as Mike pointed out several times, a dream that was shattered by the Titanic disaster.
I think what people remember most about him from the movie is 1. pressing for greater speed and 2. cowardly getting on a life boat only meant for women and children. The movie truly didn't do him any favors.
The fact he stayed right before she went under says what needs to be said - if he was worried about saving his own skin he would have been on the first life boat - not the last.
@@legioner9the problem is that Captain Smith and the officers did not effectively get all the boats full to capacity. Ismay & his fellow colleague only assume that everyone (primary women & children) on deck at that time had already climb board other boats that were not the collapsibles. Ismay wasn't the only factor that played during that disaster and most believed that ships nearby like the Californian would arrive to prevent the rest of remaining people to using the last two boats. If you had the two factors , Ismay's departure vs. The Californian's behavior than most would consider that British & US Martine regulations were a critical factor to how this tragedy unfolded. The decisions were "very human" and if you or others were place in similar circumstances with the flaws of such a system amid the fog of chaos then most would judge you as some people would condemn Ismay.
@@SolidAvenger1290 You are guessing, but have no clue, like I also do not, on what was going on in Ismay's head and heart that night. Literally all the talks, the video included, are all suppositions. The fact that is clear though is that Ismay climbed into a lifeboat, whilst others did not want to climb into a boat and did not. No one can fool people's feelings of disappointment and anger towards this fact that Ismay climbed into a boat, regardless what arguments he/she brings.
@@legioner9 Except multiple testimonies under oath from the actual people who were there saying that they asked him to come on the boat and the fact that there was still room when it launched meant he didn't take anyone else's spot otherwise it would have been full. Had he stayed, the boat would have literally just went without him and there would be one more empty spot. He isn't obligated to die because he's a man and it's obvious death is the only out you're giving him.
I always hated how Ismay is always depicted in the story of the Titanic. For 1 I never really believed the scandalous rumor of him wanting to push C.Smith to sail at full speed through an ice field. But most of all I HATE how he was villainized for simply surviving.
I’ve often wondered if Ismay was at all encouraged by Purser McElroy to board Collapsible C. McElroy assisted with its loading (and he may have also been the one firing gunshots towards the end, if Jack Thayer’s account is to be believed). McElroy had been personally introduced to Ismay by John Ellis- later to be his father-in-law- and was hired on to WSL not long after. Perhaps the two exchanged a few words at the end, and he encouraged his benefactor to save himself? Who knows.
Sadly, Hollywood (& Cameron) has prospered from making Ismay a false villain in the story of Titanic for over a century. Had they shown how the captain and crew of the Californian behaved during the tragedy in the movies, I think people would slowly understand that Ismay wasn't a villain but a tragic victim/factor who saw his dream collapse in front of his eyes and who made very "human decisions."
I think it’s because of the human tendency to want a villain in the narrative. Captain Smith is painted as a hero for dying with his ship, and so is Andrews. So the convenient target becomes Ismay. Truth is the sinking wasn’t one single person’s fault. It was a result of a multitude of factors that aligned in just the right way.
I think people are very quick to judge people's reaction during a disaster without acytually being there and experiencing it themselves, and having just read or seen something about it without actually experiencing it.
Looks like a lot of ship warnings of ice sent and they all might have been going slower. Bulkheads by air tight doors like walls between doors not sealed at top and water came in filled up those areas helped to sink ship. Said it was a design flaw in last Titanic I saw on Sat in Illinois.
Please see my comment on this page where I elaborate on this. Also, check out the playlist I have curated called, "People who were judged unfairly. I have been guilty of condemning several people in my ignorance & being influenced too easily by a vicious culture always looking for someone to vilify, including Ismay. I added this video to that playlist.
Well since the original video was taken down I'll have to say again that this is a very well done video and I will definitely be using this on any future Ismay naysayers I come across. Thank you Mike!
@@sillysad3198 could call it "Hearstenship," seeing how the naysayers came out in force against Mike's original upload video. It's a sad shame, yet I am glad Oceanlinear re-released the video.
Imagine what could’ve happened if the foresight was there to preserve Olympic as a museum ship. By 1937 people must’ve known about the titanic story. The Olympic could’ve been retired and renamed the Titanic 2.
@backpackingtony1779 The survivors wouldn't like that idea since they also wouldn't like stepping in a boat similar to the one that took the lives of their relatives and friends, it would be traumatising to set foot in one the sisters.But I myself agree, they coudvle made it like a hotel and muesem just like Queen Mary.
Glad some of these myths are being cleared up I only take exception to one part. There is no way Ismay could have thought the ship was empty. He knew there wasn’t enough life boats for everyone. Now I don’t think it was his duty to start searching the ship in her last minutes, but saying he thought all the women and children were in life boats just isn’t possible.
There is a point to be made how a traumatic situation doesn’t lend itself to logical thinking. And he wasn’t trained in emergency response, so he must be thought of as a mere everyday citizen. In that it is possible all his knowledge about the fact on boat capacity was drowned out by his subconscious absolutely avoiding to face the horror of the fact. As in his brain tricking him to believe: “it is too horrible to think that so many people will die in this tragedy, so of course all the people will find a place on the lifeboat and be rescued”
I think there's a possibility that in the moment he was completely in denial that so many people were going to die, and after spending what probably felt like a long time loading lifeboats, then not being able to fill the one he got into, he may have convinced himself that nobody was left onboard Titanic. Seeing and hearing how many people were in the water must have been terrible.
Given the circumstances, such as in his vicinity there probably were no women or children to board the life boat, in recalling the event, he might speak as if [he thought] all women and children had "gotten away on life boats" or, if he thought about it more accurately, to say that where he was there were no women and children to take the remaining seats on the life boat. But he said the former not the latter. There was no duty, given no women or children were at that life boat station, for him to go down with the ship simply because there might (were) women and children elsewhere on the ship who were going to die.
@@thing_under_the_stairs you can see in the 1997 movie in the scene where Ismay is assisting First Officer Murdoch with the passengers you see the MAJORITY of the passengers were boarding the lifeboats in the aft section of the boat deck. Even First Officer Murdoch asked a seaman “where is everyone” and the seaman replied “they’re all still aft sir” so Ismay helped with whoever was around but I think Murdoch told Ismay to board the lifeboat
It is possible. Lightoller said that when he was preparing collapsible B a crowd of women and children emerged from the inside of the ship, and up to that point, even he thought that all women and children had been evacuated. Later Edith Russel also said that when she encountered Ismay he said "All Women and children, I thought they had left the ship"
Great video Mike! Well done. As for Ismay, no matter his faults after 112 years the portrayal of him as the Titanic 'bad guy' should stop. His reputation has suffered enough I think. He was blamed for simply surviving. Those journalists who vilified him, I wonder what they would of done in his place? What would any of us do? We don't know until we are actually in that situation. Mr Ismay was. He made a choice, one it sounds like he partially regretted.
Unfortunately, Ismay's depiction will probably never change. The new movie (Unsinkable) is already vilianizing him, instead of taking the chance to correct this wrongful depiction.
The wealthiest passenger on titanic put his pregnant wife on a lifeboat and refused to get on it eventhough the wife begged him to. He said that he didn't want to take a space that could be taken by a woman or child. He stayed and helped others to the lifeboats. To me, that is very heroic, as for Ismay surviving was very shameful because so many died. He lived as a recluse for the rest of his life, I have always thought that he wished he had died that night.
@@luciacastellanos5248 Isn't brilliant how adept people are at making draconian judgements, on a laptop, from a comfy chair, 110 years after the event? Have another biscuit with your coffee.
I think the 97 movie did a pretty good job of depiciting a guy who’s clearly in shock when he finds out the ship is going to sink and that shock continues to influence his decision making with regards to getting on a life boat.
True, but he was also made the villain of the story who drive the captain to involuntary manslaughter with the imaginary speed race. Also, as much as I love Jonathan Hyde, he clearly portrays a man who knows he's being a coward but can't help it. Being in shock and conscientiously jumping into a life boat to save oneself are not the same things.
Excellent vid Michael! You have dispelled hearsay with facts, Hearst was a hypocite. He ruined so many actors for having affairs yet he had a mistress. I believe he did this for more readers. Orson Welles acted in a movie closley based on Hearsts life which Hearst tried to have withdrawn. Welles was the harassed till Hearst died.
I'm not an expert on Hearst's life. But the more I learn about him, the more he seems despicable. Recently I heard about his (and Pulitzer's) fight against the "newsies" strike of 1899. Imagine a grown-up businessman having an actual business fight against kids (many of them orphanages), because of the profitability of his newspapers.
As promised, you leaned into the correction of Ismay's mischaracterization. I was one of the masses who received a negative impression of him and never sought otherwise. Thank you for this follow-up.
When I first heard about the Titanic disaster my mom related a story about Ismay that said in his last years his servants would hear him screaming in his sleep reliving the nightmare of that night and the guilt he had endured over the years I don’t know if the story is true or not but it would make sense if it really was true.
All things consdered, this video made my heart break for Ismay. I had long thought of him as the 'baddie' but as a human, I believe that he was just excitable like any another person in his position would be. I cannot imagine the horror he must have felt at realising what he must have felt. The story of Ismay breaks my heart and I hope he rests in peace wherever he is.
@@Rick_Cleland Mike Brady took it down because he had a vision that if he dident U would leave a hate comment on his video... and Now u are only confused so u left a confused comment which will not make him sad
A sad story. Ismay has been vilified, unfairly. Hurst was a very powerful man in his own right, and used that power to his own advantage. I'm glad there are folks, like Mike, who are willing to tell the rest of the story.
Yea the rumor about Ismay pressuring Captain Smith into speeding the Titanic to make headlines, even going as far to say that he wanted the Blue Ribbon, doesn't makes sense at all. Titanic and her sisters were built to push the boundaries of size, comfort and luxury, but not speed. Ismay knew that his ships couldn't compete in speed. So why would he ever push his ship to do something it wasn't designed to do? However, i don't believe everything he said at the inquiry. For example he said that he thought all passengers were already evacuated when he left the ship. That's a straight up lie. He was for sure aware that Titanics life boats only had space for half of the passengers. There's no way that he didn't expected hundreds of people to die
To be fair, that was likely a white lie (or so he thought at the time). He was probably well aware of the absolute grilling he was going to get when he got to New York. It could have also been a misinterpreted quote. He could have meant "All the Passangers _in his immediate area_ had been evacuated" (Which we know was true).
He never claimed that everyone on the ship was evacuated but that there was no one left in the vicinity when the boat was being launched, which is true since the boat wasn't even filled to full capacity.
I’ll interpret it in terms of vicinity rather than the ship as a whole. In a moment of terror like that, I wouldn’t blame him if he wanted to get out of there the moment there weren’t any more people in his line of sight.
It wasn't as simple as admitting the whole truth; cynically, he didn't want the blame on himself and the company; less cynically, there were surviving crew members and even male passengers who could be made responsible for others losing their lives. I think he evaded the most obvious self blaming answers so as not to do any additional damage.
This was excellent! And it really does show that journalism has never been the pure and agenda-less source of news that we sometimes fantasize must have been true at some point. At the end of the day, every article is written by a person and every person has bias, and motivation to sell the news. I'd like to think that Ismay's family and descendants would find some solace in this correction to the historical record. Good on you for putting this together!
Absolutely. Most journalists turn up to an event with the story and the line of attack already written in their heads. They're only looking for facts or details to confirm it. If you've witnessed an event yourself and then look at what most mainstream media journalists have written about it, you often wonder if they were at the same event.
People think that cancel culture is anything new because of social media and the internet. But in fact it has always existed, just that it took a different form due to the media available at the time. This is an example of it with the so-called Yellow Journalism of the late 1800s and early 1900s.
@@thomasackerman5399The difference is yellow journalism went after public figures. Internet mobs will get a regular person fired, doxed, and swatted for a spicy tweet. Someone nobody ever heard of until that day. Regular working people were below the radar of yellow journalism. That's why today it's worse. It doesn't take a journalist and a newspaper to ruin someone. People can do it to each other.
absolutely, it fits for their predictable movie trope writing style to have a rich villain to point the finger at. Oi, it's him! that's the badguy. look at his evil tash!
Really apprecaite your story telling. Been watching your videos for a while and I'm always impressed with your eloquance, respect and empathy. Please keep producing them as they are a highlight of each week!
I for one am tired of the non-stop Ismay bashing in Titanic movies. The man helped numerous passengers to the lifeboats and left only in one of the last boats and he did not push anyone out of the way--there were no other passengers on deck by that point. And he did not urge Capt. Smith to drive the Titanic at a high speed. I suspect he was just enthusiastic about how well the voyage was going.
He said at the inquiry he kept to himself on Carpathia and stayed in his cabin the entire time. At the inquiry, he repeatedly answered...I don't know sir. He was trying to distance himself.
I know that I’m not sure what I would’ve done in Ismay’s place, and most of us don’t know, but we often seem to assume the best of ourselves while assigning less noble responses to others. Regarding Ismay’s hurried return to Britain I wouldn’t expect him to be well read in maritime law and he likely was under the impression that inquiries would be held in the country in which the ship under investigation was flagged, not in the country it was bound for.
lets be honest most people would have probably done the same thing if they were in his shoes its easier to say you wouldn't when your not in his position
He also had to save his company and reputation; from what I know, the Americans were not too happy about their citizens perishing and were more or less out for his blood
Great video! I have an idea for another one, a video about Captain Smith, what he did during his time with White Star, and what happened to him on the night of Titanic’s demise. Just an idea
One of his distant relations, Derrick Ismay, did an interview before. While I understand people thinking Ismay was selfish and cowardly, I don’t believe all the hatred toward him was warranted.
Re-upload? Well. I'll say here what I said in the first upload. What would the public think of Thomas Andrews if he had survived? Thomas was the ship's designer. It was for all intents and purposes his baby. He would take meticulous notes on any voyage he took (that little detail in the film of him on the grand staircase with the book was accurate) to ensure his ships were up to snuff. I think if Thomas Andrews had survived...The public wouldn't care that Thomas wasn't the captain. The public wouldn't care that Thomas wasn't the one who pushed for more speed. The public wouldn't even care that he helped as many as he could before being offered a seat. At the end of the day, it's about what's easy, not right. And it would be all too easy for Thomas to take the blame. Even overshadowing Ismay simply because he was the shipbuilder. The public would look at that title, see that the ship seemed as "unsinkable" had sunk because of a hole torn in her bow, and blame the most convenient person. It wouldn't be fair. But I do think the public would've torn Andrews to shreds.
I think there’s a strong chance he would’ve faired better but he still would’ve gotten a shit ton of the blame simply because of how associated he is with the ship and the fact that he would’ve been a man surviving. They didn’t too much care that probably more women survived then men did, the fact that any men survived over women would’ve set them off.
Everyone associated with the Titanic was blamed to some extent, though those who died in the sinking were certainly given more grace. Lightoller wasn't on watch when the berg was struck and actually stayed with the ship until the ship left him. Still, his career was ruined by Titanic. Alexander Carlisle was at least as involved, if not more than Thomas Andrews in the design of Titanic. He wasn't on the ship, but faced some tough grilling in the British Inquiry and it's fair to guess that Andrews would have faced the same. However, the number of lifeboats carried by Titanic beyond the Board of Trade mandated minimum was ultimately a decision that came from White Star. Titanic had the capacity to carry up to 64 boats and an early plan submitted by Carlisle showed 48 boats being carried. It does need to be said that this was mostly "future proofing" Titanic against anticipated changes in regulations. Still, there was no benefit or motive for H&W to restrict the number of lifeboats. Whatever White Star ordered, the cost would have been passed on to them. H&W was generally safety conscious, as seen by the other features built into Titanic, but they also couldn't insist that White Star carry more boats than they were legally obligated to. How hard H&W actually pushed White Star, their paying customer, to buy and carry more boats... that's not precisely clear. The four additional collapsibles demonstrate that there was some thought / compromise in that direction. It would have been interesting to hear Andrews' account this, as he was managing director when Titanic was fitted.
@@faithhopelove9567 Probably the same way Lowe was treated. Lowe was seen as a hero. I can imagine it would’ve been the same for Murdoch. Hell he already is seen as a hero. His career thing……I’m not so sure. Though Wilde and Moody would’ve probably been associated with the myth that an officer shot himself if Murdoch had of survived.
Captain Stanley Lord of the Californian. Sometimes he is scapegoated worse then the J. Bruce Ismay. When the truth is, the Californian, even if they mounted an attempt to save Titanic. They would have made it the same time as Carpathia. The Californian was much slower then Carpathia, despite being closer to Titanic. Then when Californian found out in the morning that Titanic had sunk, when they arrived on the scene as Carpathia was leaving. Carpathia asked them to look for any possible stray survivors, which Californian did. Another Mount Temple, who was planning to make it to Titanic, I believe was told to stop the rescue attempt because it was too dangerous by the ship owners. But weren't vilified like Californian was.
Agreed. And if you think about it, the Californian probably wouldn't have made much of a difference even if the crew had reacted at the first sign of trouble. She was fully shut down for the night, surrounded with ice and slow by design. Of course, maybe a few dozen more people could have been saved, though it's still unlikely, but the death toll would still be huge. Edit: my point is that the Californian would have only just beaten the Carpathia in the best-case scenario, or more likely arrived approximately at the same time.
@@doctoremil2678Californian wasn't "fully shut down" since the two boilers had to be kept going to provide heat and standby steam just in case the ship needed to get underway due to the drifting ice. If you need to see just how fast she could've gotten underway, look at how fast she did once Lord gave the order to do so around 4 am and after going THROUGH the ice field to the incorrect location, and then down southeast and back up, she arrived around 6 am where Carpathia was. Had Lord done something at around 12-1 am, she might've arrived in time to rescue a few people, and then the survivors in the lifeboats (saving lives lost due to exposure in Boats A and B). Lord would've been celebrated as a great hero for trying, and likely supplanted Rostron in history.
@@doctoremil2678 So, you believe that savings a few dozen more people really wasn't worth the effort. Clearly, you weren't Captain Rostron in an earlier life!
I’ve been binge watching your Titanic videos since I discovered the channel last month and this one just popped up right as I’ve got home from a screening of Titanic the musical, excellent timing!
Ismay is a complicated guy. He did help fill boats up to the end. There probably weren’t any other passengers immediately around. But we can never know how hard he looked. He didn’t offer to trade places with any crewman who was lowering his boat. Of course that wasn’t his job and he wouldn’t have been as capable as a trained crewman. I’m guessing he was neither a hero nor a villain, just a man in a situation he never expected to encounter.
Tbh, he did more that night that he was trained for. He helped to fill the boats but he was no seaman and it would've made no sense for him to trade places with one of the officers. He wouldn't have been helpful in the last moments of the Titanic.
He was exactly what he was on board - a passenger. Not a hero or a stoic, just a man who did his part. The Oscar Schindler approach is idealistic; in real life people would probably either save themselves straight on, or save a few others and then themselves. The responsibility for saving everyone lies with the ship's crew.
There were THREE spots still open after Ismay boarded. If someone was around that wanted and could leave on the boat they had their chance. Men had the chance to throw their girl into boat, mothers had the chance to dump their kids in the boat, if there was ANYONE around who was free to leave the ship or had someone they wanted to live THERE...WAS...ROOM! Also he doesn't seem like the guy to be trained for ship work so helping with lowering a boat would be a HORRIBLE idea since you have to make sure everything is in sync with a firm grip, and being near the end of sinking is the worst time to try your hand at it since any misstep could dump the people into the ocean, like what almost happened with Lifeboat 5.
I’ve been fascinated by the tragedy of the Titanic for over 5 years now, was an obsession but not so much anymore, but just an incredible story that seems to simple on the surface but is so much more complex that you realise. I recently subscribed to this account and say this, sceptical to watch just as I would be about many things, but my view in J.B. Ismay has been changed significantly! The media does make him seem to be the typical villain, but after watching this, I feel guilty for thinking of him as a villain before. Incredible story on Ismay!!👏🏻👏🏻
Re-upload. Really, Brady? Now, I have to backtrack my thoughts of what I have previously written... Who's really in focus here is William Randolph Hearst Sr. From what we know of both his business, private life and personal thoughts, he was an opportunistic vulture, despicable human being and repulsive creature. Somebody should made well documented video about him, rather than Titanic's demise. As for the media made about this tragedy, S.O.S. Titanic (TV movie) is the only one that portrays J. Bruce Ismay in a fair light. Here, he acknowledges J. Edward Smith's judgment of what is best for voyage and the ship.
You never know how you’re going to act in the presence of death until it actually happens. The fact that Ismay was on the last lifeboat tells you the claims that he was a coward are false. With his power and position he could have very easily gotten into a boat earlier.
I love these detailed videos! After watching this, I now have a new understanding of the man and his mindset. If I see his depiction again in films or shows, Ill forever look at him in a different light. Poor guy..
Ismay's wife said that sometimes she would find him in their bedroom or in his study, walking around and making up "what ifs" of that night on how the tragedy could have been avoided and that he would smile at those thoughts, perhaps because it made him feel like he could go back in time and put his "what ifs" on pratice.
May I ask where this is mentioned? I have never heard of this before and have read quite a bit about it. However, this might be true. A family friend said: ’’He tormented himself with useless speculation as to how the disaster could possible have been avoided. If only he had not ordered the building of the ship in the first place or if only she had struck the iceberg in any other way; these and similar thoughts haunted him continually, but he was not able to have the relief of discussing the subject, which might have helped share the burden, as Florence would never have the subject mentioned.’’ Florence [Mrs. Bruce Ismay] was quite protective of Ismay. She was just trying to make a life comfortable for him by avoiding the subject to be discussed. They were both victims of the Titanic in some sense. Florence’s sister Constance who had married Bruce’s brother Bower, was probably the only one in the family who talked to Ismay about the Titanic.
Mike Brady, You are a delightful man doing this titanic special on Bruce Ismay, I find you have given us a more clear and understanding point of view as to why this happened to this poor soul. I feel for the guy...who would not do the same thing in his shoes. Maybe not everyone but who can judge What a person would do in a situation like that. He probably lived and died with a broken heart .
To me, a man that stays on a sinking boat in the middle of the ocean, trying to save as many lives as possible, try to make himself available for court proceedings, brings up insurance payments every meeting, and has the strength to live on for his family instead of succumbing to the trauma and nearly endless public scrutiny isn't a villain, that is a hero
Yes he must have thought that he would be a credible voice for what happened as he was informed of what was going on whereas passengers weren’t. He was also not of any use for the ship itself (not an engineer etc) and with the custom of the main crew staying on ship till the last second they have a high likelihood of not making it. It made him the man alive trusted with the most information on the night of the sinking. He could not help directly but he could tell later. I have great respect for him and all he tried to do after the disaster.
Having not seen the "A Night to Remember" film yet but a big lover the book it's based on, I'm surprised and disappointed that the film also fell into this trap when the book didn't vilify Ismay at all; the author Walter Lord even pointed out the same things mentioned here, that Ismay got into one of the last lifeboats only after there were no women and children to be seen, and spent much of his time assisting passengers that night. Edit after finally seeing the movie: the portrayal of Ismay was not as bad as I thought it would be. Unlike most other Titanic movies, it did not push the lie that Ismay pressured Smith into breaking speed records. The film did show him helping passengers into lifeboats, and even though his quick jump into a lifeboat was portrayed as cowardice, it did at least acknowledge he checked around for other passengers before getting in. While it's a low bar to clear, I'd say "A Night to Remember" has the most grounded portrayal of Ismay of any Titanic film.
Many Thanks Mike, really enjoy your channel. Clearly a passion for you and a great education for your audience. Look forward to ongoing content, keep it up. Great lessons in this one, something we still see with the media of today and on human behaviour like with Ismay and those involved.
UA-cam and maybe some viewers likely didn't have a favorable view of the original video. It's a sad shame since the original had more than 52,000 views in half a day since it was released.
I admit to having loathed Ismay for many years. His reputation as a coward who sneaked aboard a lifeboat in women's attire was solidly cemented into Titanic lore. In recent years I have come to respect the man who did all the good he possibly could in a terrible situation.
@@egm8602 I mean, there was what he did (set up a fund for ship sinking survivors etc etc), and what WSL (the subsidiary company he directed, as an employee, not owner) did under WSL guidelines.
I am a huge fan of Ismay. Thank you for sharing this Mike. I know it’s true he became a recluse, however, he was truly beloved by many. This idea about getting to port at night being a flippant conversation between the higher-ups is a juicy tidbit. I still question, however, what prompted him onto the lifeboat? He had to have known the ship was doomed and that more than half the people aboard would go down with her. There is some evidence from the inquiry, that men were needed on the lifeboats to row and some men declined boarding because they didn’t know how to row, but Ismay did. What did he actually say about the matter in his testimony? Also, he was too in his robe and slippers, so maybe his communication with Andrews and other crew was limited after she struck? This is a psychological drama, Austin Stark, Richard Glatzer, or Sofia Coppola film in the making! 😊
Original video was made private and this re-uploaded? Original ID ended E2M this ends BSY. What changed? I think a video clip is missing but not exactly sure, it seems the same? Both videos were 19:47 long. Anyway... Guess that reminds me of the quote from someone famous, might it have been Churchill who said 'History is written by the victors' - although this wasn't a story born from war, it was a story born for someone looking for someone to blame and shows how certain details can be construed to construct a narrative to serve someone else's purposes. At least finally, it seems that the more nuanced facts are starting to reveal that Ismay wasn't as much as a villain as he'd been made. It seems like it weighed heavily on him afterwards and that bit at the end saying he'd died in 1937 but mentally 'died' after the disaster. I hope he finally was able to rest in peace. Edit: fixed 1937 date (originally put 1931 which was wrong)
I would say this is one of your best ever videos. It is very important that facts are not lost to sensationalism, a thing as true today as it was a century ago.
Many would live like cowards because they have no morals, it is not even about the fact that I survived when there were women and children but rather that I survived being GUILTY, whether I like it or not, if 2000 people died because of me, I would rather die than save myself. 😷
@@jerson.romantico.1521 You see it is that attitude that contributed to excessive deaths. If everyone shared the attitude that they better not escape in a lifeboat because others would miss out, then all the lifeboats would be considerably empty. Therefore less survivors. The better attitude would have been to fill those lifeboats to the brim, men, women, crew, fill them as full as you can and save as many people as possible. Sure some people will miss out, but you have to make a try for it. If you don't value your own life, then you have no hope of saving other lives.
I've always thought ismsy got an unfair rep. He didn't do what almost anyone else wouldn't have done. He was a scapegoat and that's all. The fact he stayed on the ship almost to the end and helped get women and children off the ship while helping to keep order speaks volumes. He was unfairly drug through the mud
Had he been in a situation like this, you just know that Hearst would have been running over people, and tossing women and children out of the life boats, in order to save his own self-important ass! He's awful smug while sitting in his comfy chair behind a desk.
Amen to that. If there is one thing I've learned in life is that the most self righteous people are the first to crack and abandon their morals when push comes to shove.
Thank you for always digging for the truth These misrepresentations of titanic pushed for over a century really have me concerned about the new titanic documentary that's being released. Unsinkable Titanic Untold.
It's for reasons like this that I feel James Cameron's Titanic might be due for a remake by him, with a lot more accuracy put in to the film. The hard part would be keeping the studio out of it, as studios (ironically) love to dictate what can and can't be done on some films, and how their money should be spent. Film studios today are often the moustache twirling villains they portrayed Ismay as.
I think the obvious thing about Cameron's Titanic and real or fictionalized actions and words of real-life people who were on the ship are merely background and supplemental to the complete fiction of the Romeo and Juliet-like love story of Jack and Rose. They even supply their own fictional bad guys in Rose's fiancé Cal and his surly body man played by David Warner, along with the mystery of the big diamond pendant. Unlike say, A Night to Remember, Cameron does not let the actions of the real people and events supply all the plotting and drama of the sinking but conjures up a neat fiction as the centerpiece. Don't get me wrong, I think it is a great picture and top shelf entertainment, but if you are looking for documentary type history, Cameron's Titanic is the wrong place to look. He did go to great lengths to provide accuracy, but only so far as to set up verisimilitude for the story of the doomed lovers. It surprises me not at all that Ismay is bashed as all of the first-class elites, except for Molly Brown, are depicted as despicable and clueless baddies, while the steerage folks, like Jack, are ebullient and noble good guys. That's the whole Capulet-Montague thing. Ismay falls into the former category so, of course he must be arrogant, churlish and, yes, cowardly. I think the scene which puts the most damning stamp on Ismay has little or no dialogue. When the last lifeboat is getting ready to be lowered and Ismay jumps in, the Murdoch (I think) character shoots him a stare that registers complete disgust while Ismay looks around in every direction except back at Murdoch who continues to stare down Ismay as the boat is lowered. Ismay looks for all the world like someone who is breaking the rules and knows it. In a wordless scene Cameron conveys what was claimed by the press afterward. the guy's a gutless coward. Great moviemaking; lousy history.
@@mjhbuckeye Very true. I do remember among when I heard Cameron's whole pitch to the studio was "Romeo and Juliet on the Titanic", and that's all it took, but you are correct that that stayed the centrepiece. However I do recall James Cameron stating in an interview that is isn't a directed that dives to make films, he's a diver that makes films to dive, or something to that effect, essentially implying he uses his money to fund more diving expeditions. I do still feel like James Cameron should remake the film (practical effects have come a long way, and more can be done with the assist of just a little CGI, more so that when the original was made), but he could probably use another centrepiece for the story. What that could be, I don't know, but I'm sure there's something. But to be honest, I just want another film made by him that doesn't involve blue people that have smex with their tails.
@@heleneharris6904 I suppose then it becomes a matter, what's more important to the viewer? Accuracy, or entertainment? It's a conundrum. Though there is another option, Cameron makes Titanic, but not a movie movies, but a documentary movie, like March of The Penguins.
Thankyou! Thankyou! Thankyou for doing this video. I had fallen in love with the Titanic when the wreck discovery was announced in 1986. And it always bothered me that one man, Bruce Ismay was demonized. And my heart sank when James Cameron did the same.
WELL DONE Mike Brady! I'm curious, do you have an opinion of Captain Stanley Lord as well? Obviously, he was tagged the other villain of the Titanic disaster. I am not convinced that history has been fair to Captain Lord, yet still cannot understand why he never turned-on his radio.
@jasona9 they only had 1 wireless operator unlike Titanic who had 2, also the Titanic's wireless operator told them the Californian to shut up and that they were busy when he tried to warn the Titanic about the ice fields so he turned off is Marconi device and went to bed before any of the distress calls went out from the Titanic. Although there are reports that crew members of the Californian saw the Titanic's distress rockets, but either thought they were company rockets or from a different ship further behind the Titanic.
Thank you Mike for making this video. Hollywood (& Cameron) has prospered from making Ismay a false villain in the story of Titanic for over a century. Had they shown how the captain and crew of the Californian behaved during the tragedy in the movies, I think people would slowly understand that Ismay wasn't a villain but a tragic victim/factor who saw his dream collapse in front of his eyes and who made very "human decisions."
This was a great watch this morning and a great watch tonight. Sorry you had to reupload but this video made me go listen to Ismay’s Senate testimony. It’s interesting to read/hear.
Thanks... Liked Subscirbed... For what it's worth... I find the flashy editing somewhat distracting and less enjoyable than previous more dignified style... The energetic transitions... sound effects... etc. I'd felt the understated tone of the editing was much more agreeable... Just a thought. Thanks again... Always enjoyable.
This really shows you that the media has always been the same. Sacrificing yourself for others is noble, making it a requirement is utter foolishness. RIP Ismay.
4:32 I agree with you. People spoke differently 100 years ago. His statement could have been as simple as being proud of the ship and being happy it was not malfunctioning. Every maiden voyage has something break, even if it benign as a hose coming lose. Sometimes boilers exploded. Being grateful a newer type steam boiler hasnt sent shrapnel through the deck isnt anything to be ashamed of. If you were going to pressure or threaten the captain, it wouldnt be outside the bridge anyway, especially in the 1900s.
Hi man, I love your channel. I have a suggestion for you, a video explaining the Titanic pumps, and how many of them would have been necessary to save the ship
Since 1912, Ismay has been the villain in Titanic's story. But in 2024 and beyond, William Hearst is the real villain. Ismay was an innocent passenger who was bundled into a boat, to ensure that he was present in the inquiry of the sinking. And he helped many escaped that night while willing to stay behind til the end but the officers were following orders to save as many passengers as possible.
@@M167A1 If I'm getting the message you tried to convey, then I disagree. Had Ismay not boarded that boat, his seat would have been empty. Ismay didn't "steal" that seat from anyone. There was no one (woman or child) nearby to take it instead. So, there would have been one more victim.
@@M167A1Mate, that couldn't be further from the truth. Who, on a practically deserted deck, would have died to save Ismay? Other than the Officers, the only people around Collapsible C was Ismay and a 1st Class Gentleman (Whose name currently escapes me). Both got in. If there is anyone to blame for the number of survivors, it's Lightoller. _He_ launched boats at quarter to half capacity.
@@VelociraptorsOfSkyrimThere was a study done and it found the ships rate of sinking was fast enough that it shouldn’t have been able to launch as many boats as it did. Simply put if they launched half the amount of total boats filling to full capacity there’d be less survivors as a good portion of survivors entered lifeboats after jumping in the water.
@@M167A1 Did you ignore the entire video that Oceanliner Designs posted? There was nobody around and that the boat wasn't even full proves that because if another person was there, they would have jumped in too since there was room.
I would hope the decedents of Mr Ismay could see this video and your exoneration of this situation. An expert historian without careless rhetoric. An outstanding reveal that otherwise would continue to discredit his name. Thank you for this amazing documentary!
You can always recommend this video to the descedants of Bruce Ismay. You can try to find them under the names such as Cheape, Sanderson and Hovell-Thurlow-Cumming-Bruce.
I know people like to preach “women and children first” and “of course I’d give up my seat” but until you’re in that situation you can’t judge. I never once thought badly of him, I was scared just watching the movie, can’t imagine what everyone actually involved, including him, were feeling 😔😔😔
As always, excellent work. A fine case for the defence of a man whose prosecution has gone on for 112 years. I would disagree, however, on a philosophical point about the ‘chest-thumping’ culture of the era. You conflate nationalism with the wider concept of honour. The nationalism is ridiculous as you say, but not the courage and honour, which are far more relevant to this case. I don’t think anyone believes Ismay should have gone down with the ship for nationalistic reasons. Whilst Peter Pan mentions ‘English gentlemen’, the point is that Brits wanted to believe they exemplified this fine quality of courage and honour, and only by extension would demonstrating these qualities reflect well on your countrymen. More to the point, though, you criticise this sort of romantic honour, and then make a case for its existence with the rest of the video. You call Ismay’s escape a miscalculation, and show us how destroyed a man he became. Surely this is precisely why a man of the era may have chosen instead to die with honour in such circumstances. The fact that he did not may also show that this attitude had less strong a hold than you suggest. Personally, I think Ismay did the right thing in saving one more soul, as Smith points out. Facing death with Peter Pan’s courage wasn’t necessary for him, and would have achieved nothing. Nevertheless, I think it’s a fine way for someone facing a genuinely inescapable fate to behave, and I wouldn’t be inclined to criticise it, or the teaching of such courage to children. It is precisely the sort of honour that begat the Birkenhead Drill in the first place-one of the finest acts of honour in modern history. Just a comment, not a criticism. Thanks for work and the video!
I feel bad for J Bruce Ismay. When I learned about his backstory and what he did, I did Facebook Post to show others a difference in him. He never removed any additional boats, he was just following Board of Trade regulations from the 1890s, ships over 10000 Tons carry 16 Lifeboats. The WSL was never in on a speed record as it was costly and short lived, their last blue ribbon holder was Teutonic of 1889. Maybe he was just checking on Titanics performance like he did with Olympics Maiden Voyage. He got Cedric to stay in hopes to take him and the crew back to Europe, they were traumatized by the disaster. William Randolph Hearst inherited his father SF Newspaper and he offered Ismay to join him, Ismay wasn’t comfortable with the press, so he turned down the offer. Hearst use this as slander to tarnish Ismay reputation. The Crew on Titanic were extremely unprepared for a situation of Titanics. Are. lifeboats at the time were meant to ferry passengers between ships after using the wireless to call for help, as shown with RMS Republic. He saved himself when the area was clear. He resigned from WSL in 1913 ensuring families receive compensation. In the 1930s he tried to save the company in the Depression but was unsuccessful and he passed away RIP.
Well said! People usually don't understand ships.There is a lot of people who likes to think that J. Bruce Ismay left people to get drown and saved himself at the expense of others. But that's just a malicious fantasy, nothing more.
I think it’s not fair for people who have never been in a life or death situation like the titanic to call someone a coward because they wanted to live.
I'm curious, does UA-cam have a grudge against Ismay? I'm kind of surprised that this video got context flagged, since you repeatedly refer to historical records.
No those flags are autogenerated and have nothing to do with the opinions or goals of the video. YT started doing it during Covid ironically the content they been made to originally target was a conspiracy which turned out true.
I’ll never forgot what my Great Grandfather said about Ismay. My grandfather was a soldier in WWII and suffered PTSD the rest of his life. When I was about 9-10 I was telling him about the Titanic (I of course was obsessed) and remarked that Ismay was a coward for not going down with the ship. My Grandfather was taken aback by that and said “you never know what you’ll do when you know you’re about to die.” I never thought of Ismay the same way since. Thank you for posting.
let be honest most people probably would have the done the same thing if they were in his position its easier to say you wouldn't when your not in that position
@@james656-k8e This.
To OP.
Kudos to your great grandfather who taught you something *you should have realized on your own.*
Parroting popular opinion is the hallmark of fools and ignoramuses.
I think it would have been a waste if he had not taken the empty spot on a boat. It is a toxic idea that men should die simply for the sake of dying. If Ismay had not taken the spot on the boat it would have been a wasted space.
Idk of anyone who saw combat let alone liberated a death camp that didn't have a life of symptoms shouting PTSD.... my grandfather could barely discuss it and died a suffering alcoholic. sad that only now society will admit that.
Find it interesting that James Cameron knew all this, and still put it in the film because 'people expected to see it' like sir this was a real person, not just a character
Thinking back to the movie, it does seem that Cameron did try to save the character of Ismay a little bit with some tiny things. For instance, when he told the Captain, imagine getting into port a bit early and push the ship a little faster, he did ad the line "course I leave it up to you and your officers." Yes, he did also say a line after that that almost negates the pervious lines but still, its in there. Also when he got into the life boat, he looked around and say there were no other women and children then climbed in.
Reality rarely makes a good Hollywood movie. I think Cameron’s assassination of the character of Officer Murdoch was very unjust. That man saved many lives and went down with the ship.
The real issue is that people often mistake the movie for fact and not fiction. Yes, it was made with a great sense of detail to the real story but at the end, it is a fictional story with fictional characters.
@@fancyfree8599 Cameron tried to justify it by saying that the event in question said more about Hal's character than Murdock's, am sorry but to pin reported but never totally verified stories on an exemplary officer, who launched more lifeboats and saved more lives than any other officer that night- is a low, insulting move, I can picture the conversation that took place between Cameron and his team and imagine that it went something like this:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Cameron:* _"er the film is not tragic enough... we need more..."_
*Random Team Member:* _"oh there's a story about an officer who accepted bribes.. oh and another story about an officer shooting a passenger than then turning gun on himself"_
*Cameron:* _"ooo they are both perfect, love them, they are tragedy within tragedy, they will really pull on the audiences old heartstrings"_
*Random Team Member:* _"yeah but there's no verified 100% proof that these stories are true and no one knows who the supposed officer involved in them was, wouldn't it be better to stick with actual verified history?"_
*Cameron:* _"oh that doesn't matter, we'll still use them as they really speak tragedy"_
*Random Team Member:* _"ok, so shall we just make it some unnamed random officer then?"_
*Cameron:* _"eh, we could but is the audience really going respond to some unknown guy? that's not really going to get them going is it?"_
*Random Team Member:* _"yeah true, so who should it be then?"_
*Cameron:* _" Hmm..._ *light bulb moment*, _I know, we'll make it Murdock"_
*Random Team Member:* _"Murdock??? So you want to use completely unverified stories on a man who diligently saved more lives than any other officer that night? The man whom more than half of titanic survivors owe their very lives to as he had nearly 10 boats launched before the other side had even launched one?"_
*Cameron:* _"Yep, Trust me, Murdock is the perfect one to use"_
*Random Team Member:* _"How do you figure that? Most people view this man as a hero who saved as many lives as he could, an officer who diligently did his duty to the very last moment"_
*Cameron:* _"Exactly, that's why he is perfect for this, its a twist the audience will never see coming, they'll love it and totally understand why we've done it, it makes for great drama"_
*Random Team Member:* _"Right, well we're convinced- we can't see this going wrong at all...lets do it"_
** -------- *Movie gets released* --------- **
*Team Member:* _"Aww shit, some of the audience is pissed at Murdock's bribe accepting, passenger murdering and then committing suicide scenes.."_
*Cameron:* _"What!! really??? whats wrong with people? those scenes were of great artistic licence, very well crafted, hmm, what to do, what to do?.. I know we'll just explain exactly that, that's bound to calm people down"_
** ------- *A little time passes* ------- **
*Random Team Member:* _"yeah that didn't work, people are still mad"_
*Cameron:* _"hmm, now that I think about it, maybe using unverified rumours to commit total character assassination of a good dutiful man was wrong and insulting to his memory"_
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah Cameron and his team being massively insulting to William Murdock's character and memory was bad enough, but the way they then tried to excuse it- was even worse... shame on them for that....
It's a drama, it's not a documentary. You need villains and conflict in the story or else it's boring.
I personally agree that the 1997 film showed some mercy in Ismay's 'bad' by correctly depicting him assisting passengers in boarding the boats. He was simply portrayed as a businessman who blindly trusted the invincibility of his mighty ship until he was told 'She is made of iron, and I assure you she can sink'(-one of my favorite lines in the film). His role in the movie probably also represented the general optimism about technical advancement and the future of humanity at that time, as Mike pointed out several times, a dream that was shattered by the Titanic disaster.
I believe that line was delivered by Andrews, the engineer?
@@RichardKaye-e6tdesigner but yes
@@RichardKaye-e6t Correct.
"she's made of iron sir, i assure you, she can."
I think what people remember most about him from the movie is 1. pressing for greater speed and 2. cowardly getting on a life boat only meant for women and children. The movie truly didn't do him any favors.
The fact he stayed right before she went under says what needs to be said - if he was worried about saving his own skin he would have been on the first life boat - not the last.
What you say is very debatable. Besides, Ismay did not climb in the last lifeboat anyways.
@@legioner9the problem is that Captain Smith and the officers did not effectively get all the boats full to capacity.
Ismay & his fellow colleague only assume that everyone (primary women & children) on deck at that time had already climb board other boats that were not the collapsibles.
Ismay wasn't the only factor that played during that disaster and most believed that ships nearby like the Californian would arrive to prevent the rest of remaining people to using the last two boats.
If you had the two factors , Ismay's departure vs. The Californian's behavior than most would consider that British & US Martine regulations were a critical factor to how this tragedy unfolded.
The decisions were "very human" and if you or others were place in similar circumstances with the flaws of such a system amid the fog of chaos then most would judge you as some people would condemn Ismay.
@@SolidAvenger1290 You are guessing, but have no clue, like I also do not, on what was going on in Ismay's head and heart that night. Literally all the talks, the video included, are all suppositions. The fact that is clear though is that Ismay climbed into a lifeboat, whilst others did not want to climb into a boat and did not. No one can fool people's feelings of disappointment and anger towards this fact that Ismay climbed into a boat, regardless what arguments he/she brings.
@@SolidAvenger1290 Well...Lightoller wasn't. Murdoch - who was portrayed as a villain in the movie - did.
@@legioner9 Except multiple testimonies under oath from the actual people who were there saying that they asked him to come on the boat and the fact that there was still room when it launched meant he didn't take anyone else's spot otherwise it would have been full. Had he stayed, the boat would have literally just went without him and there would be one more empty spot. He isn't obligated to die because he's a man and it's obvious death is the only out you're giving him.
I always hated how Ismay is always depicted in the story of the Titanic. For 1 I never really believed the scandalous rumor of him wanting to push C.Smith to sail at full speed through an ice field. But most of all I HATE how he was villainized for simply surviving.
I’ve often wondered if Ismay was at all encouraged by Purser McElroy to board Collapsible C. McElroy assisted with its loading (and he may have also been the one firing gunshots towards the end, if Jack Thayer’s account is to be believed). McElroy had been personally introduced to Ismay by John Ellis- later to be his father-in-law- and was hired on to WSL not long after.
Perhaps the two exchanged a few words at the end, and he encouraged his benefactor to save himself? Who knows.
I agree. Anyone in that same position would have done the same thing.
Sadly, Hollywood (& Cameron) has prospered from making Ismay a false villain in the story of Titanic for over a century. Had they shown how the captain and crew of the Californian behaved during the tragedy in the movies, I think people would slowly understand that Ismay wasn't a villain but a tragic victim/factor who saw his dream collapse in front of his eyes and who made very "human decisions."
I think it’s because of the human tendency to want a villain in the narrative. Captain Smith is painted as a hero for dying with his ship, and so is Andrews. So the convenient target becomes Ismay. Truth is the sinking wasn’t one single person’s fault. It was a result of a multitude of factors that aligned in just the right way.
@@princessroyal80 Cameron's version of Titanic already had a villain in Cal. The historical personnel should have been portrayed correctly.
I think people are very quick to judge people's reaction during a disaster without acytually being there and experiencing it themselves, and having just read or seen something about it without actually experiencing it.
Looks like a lot of ship warnings of ice sent and they all might have been going slower. Bulkheads by air tight doors like walls between doors not sealed at top and water came in filled up those areas helped to sink ship. Said it was a design flaw in last Titanic I saw on Sat in Illinois.
Please see my comment on this page where I elaborate on this. Also, check out the playlist I have curated called, "People who were judged unfairly. I have been guilty of condemning several people in my ignorance & being influenced too easily by a vicious culture always looking for someone to vilify, including Ismay. I added this video to that playlist.
Well since the original video was taken down I'll have to say again that this is a very well done video and I will definitely be using this on any future Ismay naysayers I come across. Thank you Mike!
the cns zorship is wild lately!
they slapped this vid with a cenzobanner.
@@sillysad3198 You have no idea what censorship means
@@sillysad3198 could call it "Hearstenship," seeing how the naysayers came out in force against Mike's original upload video. It's a sad shame, yet I am glad Oceanlinear re-released the video.
@@SolidAvenger1290What was being said? I just thought Mike made a mistake and wanted to correct it.
@@MLennholm mmmm, reality denial, delicious!
In addition to being the year Ismay died (At the old age of 75), 1937 was also the year RMS Olympic's hull was ignominiously scrapped.
Imagine what could’ve happened if the foresight was there to preserve Olympic as a museum ship. By 1937 people must’ve known about the titanic story. The Olympic could’ve been retired and renamed the Titanic 2.
@backpackingtony1779 The survivors wouldn't like that idea since they also wouldn't like stepping in a boat similar to the one that took the lives of their relatives and friends, it would be traumatising to set foot in one the sisters.But I myself agree, they coudvle made it like a hotel and muesem just like Queen Mary.
Glad some of these myths are being cleared up I only take exception to one part. There is no way Ismay could have thought the ship was empty. He knew there wasn’t enough life boats for everyone. Now I don’t think it was his duty to start searching the ship in her last minutes, but saying he thought all the women and children were in life boats just isn’t possible.
There is a point to be made how a traumatic situation doesn’t lend itself to logical thinking. And he wasn’t trained in emergency response, so he must be thought of as a mere everyday citizen.
In that it is possible all his knowledge about the fact on boat capacity was drowned out by his subconscious absolutely avoiding to face the horror of the fact.
As in his brain tricking him to believe: “it is too horrible to think that so many people will die in this tragedy, so of course all the people will find a place on the lifeboat and be rescued”
I think there's a possibility that in the moment he was completely in denial that so many people were going to die, and after spending what probably felt like a long time loading lifeboats, then not being able to fill the one he got into, he may have convinced himself that nobody was left onboard Titanic. Seeing and hearing how many people were in the water must have been terrible.
Given the circumstances, such as in his vicinity there probably were no women or children to board the life boat, in recalling the event, he might speak as if [he thought] all women and children had "gotten away on life boats" or, if he thought about it more accurately, to say that where he was there were no women and children to take the remaining seats on the life boat. But he said the former not the latter.
There was no duty, given no women or children were at that life boat station, for him to go down with the ship simply because there might (were) women and children elsewhere on the ship who were going to die.
@@thing_under_the_stairs you can see in the 1997 movie in the scene where Ismay is assisting First Officer Murdoch with the passengers you see the MAJORITY of the passengers were boarding the lifeboats in the aft section of the boat deck. Even First Officer Murdoch asked a seaman “where is everyone” and the seaman replied “they’re all still aft sir” so Ismay helped with whoever was around but I think Murdoch told Ismay to board the lifeboat
It is possible.
Lightoller said that when he was preparing collapsible B a crowd of women and children emerged from the inside of the ship, and up to that point, even he thought that all women and children had been evacuated.
Later Edith Russel also said that when she encountered Ismay he said "All Women and children, I thought they had left the ship"
Great video Mike! Well done. As for Ismay, no matter his faults after 112 years the portrayal of him as the Titanic 'bad guy' should stop. His reputation has suffered enough I think. He was blamed for simply surviving. Those journalists who vilified him, I wonder what they would of done in his place? What would any of us do? We don't know until we are actually in that situation. Mr Ismay was. He made a choice, one it sounds like he partially regretted.
Unfortunately, Ismay's depiction will probably never change.
The new movie (Unsinkable) is already vilianizing him, instead of taking the chance to correct this wrongful depiction.
I believe historians and journalists now are trying to repair J. Bruce Ismay's reputation. However, its Hollywood, that keeps making him a villain.
The wealthiest passenger on titanic put his pregnant wife on a lifeboat and refused to get on it eventhough the wife begged him to. He said that he didn't want to take a space that could be taken by a woman or child. He stayed and helped others to the lifeboats. To me, that is very heroic, as for Ismay surviving was very shameful because so many died. He lived as a recluse for the rest of his life, I have always thought that he wished he had died that night.
@@luciacastellanos5248 Isn't brilliant how adept people are at making draconian judgements, on a laptop, from a comfy chair, 110 years after the event? Have another biscuit with your coffee.
@dovetonsturdee7033 lol the irony of ur statement, correct it then, I am a historian but I welcome you to prove me wrong.
I think the 97 movie did a pretty good job of depiciting a guy who’s clearly in shock when he finds out the ship is going to sink and that shock continues to influence his decision making with regards to getting on a life boat.
The major mistake it made was that conversation with captain Smith being delivered the way it was.
True, but he was also made the villain of the story who drive the captain to involuntary manslaughter with the imaginary speed race. Also, as much as I love Jonathan Hyde, he clearly portrays a man who knows he's being a coward but can't help it. Being in shock and conscientiously jumping into a life boat to save oneself are not the same things.
@@NebulasecuraI think Cameron solely based that part on the testimony of the first class woman who thought she heard them say that
Excellent vid Michael! You have dispelled hearsay with facts, Hearst was a hypocite. He ruined so many actors for having affairs yet he had a mistress. I believe he did this for more readers. Orson Welles acted in a movie closley based on Hearsts life which Hearst tried to have withdrawn. Welles was the harassed till Hearst died.
I'm not an expert on Hearst's life. But the more I learn about him, the more he seems despicable. Recently I heard about his (and Pulitzer's) fight against the "newsies" strike of 1899. Imagine a grown-up businessman having an actual business fight against kids (many of them orphanages), because of the profitability of his newspapers.
Citizen Kane.
Citizen Kane. The most famous movie ever made. Welles also directed it.
@@MagiTailWelkin Thank You
@@carlosadriantinajerovelazc4338 And Patty Hearst was his granddaughter
As promised, you leaned into the correction of Ismay's mischaracterization. I was one of the masses who received a negative impression of him and never sought otherwise. Thank you for this follow-up.
When I first heard about the Titanic disaster my mom related a story about Ismay that said in his last years his servants would hear him screaming in his sleep reliving the nightmare of that night and the guilt he had endured over the years I don’t know if the story is true or not but it would make sense if it really was true.
All things consdered, this video made my heart break for Ismay. I had long thought of him as the 'baddie' but as a human, I believe that he was just excitable like any another person in his position would be. I cannot imagine the horror he must have felt at realising what he must have felt. The story of Ismay breaks my heart and I hope he rests in peace wherever he is.
reupload? great video!
Yeah... What happened to the first one? I thought I was losing my mind.
@@Rick_Cleland Mike Brady took it down because he had a vision that if he dident U would leave a hate comment on his video... and Now u are only confused so u left a confused comment which will not make him sad
Cameron did Murdoch pretty dirty too. His family was pissed.
Rightfully so, The man died a hero. Most of those who lived owed him their lives.
I remember his family being upset, can’t say as I blame them. 🤷♂️
@@JRA6192 Another who might've taken his life according to Walter Lord was Chief Officer Wilde
@@JRA6192 sure, okay. but turn the camera to some random officer who does it in the film, not Murdoch
My father’s father was roommates in college I believe with Walter Lord.
A sad story. Ismay has been vilified, unfairly. Hurst was a very powerful man in his own right, and used that power to his own advantage. I'm glad there are folks, like Mike, who are willing to tell the rest of the story.
What a cute doggie pic you have as your profile pic!
I agree. I think of Ismay as a hero, Hearst as a villain.
Yea the rumor about Ismay pressuring Captain Smith into speeding the Titanic to make headlines, even going as far to say that he wanted the Blue Ribbon, doesn't makes sense at all. Titanic and her sisters were built to push the boundaries of size, comfort and luxury, but not speed. Ismay knew that his ships couldn't compete in speed. So why would he ever push his ship to do something it wasn't designed to do?
However, i don't believe everything he said at the inquiry. For example he said that he thought all passengers were already evacuated when he left the ship. That's a straight up lie. He was for sure aware that Titanics life boats only had space for half of the passengers. There's no way that he didn't expected hundreds of people to die
To be fair, that was likely a white lie (or so he thought at the time).
He was probably well aware of the absolute grilling he was going to get when he got to New York.
It could have also been a misinterpreted quote. He could have meant "All the Passangers _in his immediate area_ had been evacuated" (Which we know was true).
He never claimed that everyone on the ship was evacuated but that there was no one left in the vicinity when the boat was being launched, which is true since the boat wasn't even filled to full capacity.
I’ll interpret it in terms of vicinity rather than the ship as a whole. In a moment of terror like that, I wouldn’t blame him if he wanted to get out of there the moment there weren’t any more people in his line of sight.
It wasn't as simple as admitting the whole truth; cynically, he didn't want the blame on himself and the company; less cynically, there were surviving crew members and even male passengers who could be made responsible for others losing their lives. I think he evaded the most obvious self blaming answers so as not to do any additional damage.
I saw this when it was originally uploaded, Great video, I like how you showed who Ismay truly was🙂
This was excellent! And it really does show that journalism has never been the pure and agenda-less source of news that we sometimes fantasize must have been true at some point. At the end of the day, every article is written by a person and every person has bias, and motivation to sell the news. I'd like to think that Ismay's family and descendants would find some solace in this correction to the historical record. Good on you for putting this together!
Another fantastic, informative, well researched and well edited mini-doc from Mr Brady. You, sir, are a class act.
Journalism hasn’t changed. Narrative not fact then, narrative not facts now.
And then they have the chutzpah to complain because we don't trust them.
Absolutely. Most journalists turn up to an event with the story and the line of attack already written in their heads. They're only looking for facts or details to confirm it. If you've witnessed an event yourself and then look at what most mainstream media journalists have written about it, you often wonder if they were at the same event.
People think that cancel culture is anything new because of social media and the internet. But in fact it has always existed, just that it took a different form due to the media available at the time. This is an example of it with the so-called Yellow Journalism of the late 1800s and early 1900s.
@@thomasackerman5399The difference is yellow journalism went after public figures. Internet mobs will get a regular person fired, doxed, and swatted for a spicy tweet. Someone nobody ever heard of until that day. Regular working people were below the radar of yellow journalism. That's why today it's worse. It doesn't take a journalist and a newspaper to ruin someone. People can do it to each other.
absolutely, it fits for their predictable movie trope writing style to have a rich villain to point the finger at. Oi, it's him! that's the badguy. look at his evil tash!
Really apprecaite your story telling. Been watching your videos for a while and I'm always impressed with your eloquance, respect and empathy. Please keep producing them as they are a highlight of each week!
I for one am tired of the non-stop Ismay bashing in Titanic movies. The man helped numerous passengers to the lifeboats and left only in one of the last boats and he did not push anyone out of the way--there were no other passengers on deck by that point. And he did not urge Capt. Smith to drive the Titanic at a high speed. I suspect he was just enthusiastic about how well the voyage was going.
I cannot imagine the survivor's guilt that man must've had up to his final days...
He could even speak to his own grandchildren about it
He said at the inquiry he kept to himself on Carpathia and stayed in his cabin the entire time. At the inquiry, he repeatedly answered...I don't know sir. He was trying to distance himself.
It was tough living at Mayfair and spending time in the Irish countryside fishing.
I heard that they gave him opiates on the way back and he was just out of it staring into space@@ReviewsChannel-e4r
..What a detailed presentation stuffed with very well researched meaty informations....Thank you so much dearest Mike Brady ! 💙
I know that I’m not sure what I would’ve done in Ismay’s place, and most of us don’t know, but we often seem to assume the best of ourselves while assigning less noble responses to others. Regarding Ismay’s hurried return to Britain I wouldn’t expect him to be well read in maritime law and he likely was under the impression that inquiries would be held in the country in which the ship under investigation was flagged, not in the country it was bound for.
lets be honest most people would have probably done the same thing if they were in his shoes its easier to say you wouldn't when your not in his position
He also had to save his company and reputation; from what I know, the Americans were not too happy about their citizens perishing and were more or less out for his blood
I was here during the first upload!
Great video! I have an idea for another one, a video about Captain Smith, what he did during his time with White Star, and what happened to him on the night of Titanic’s demise. Just an idea
Looking forward to this video, I never knew this was reupload, thanks though!
He sounds as though he was really sweet. Such a shame he was dragged so horribly. Thank you for this video.
One of his distant relations, Derrick Ismay, did an interview before. While I understand people thinking Ismay was selfish and cowardly, I don’t believe all the hatred toward him was warranted.
Really sweet? Haha
Oh I'm sure he was just a kitten. lol
A really tragic story, given how people are being mass cancelled now
@@melissasheppard6674 Ismay’s survival also really wasn’t cowardly or selfish.
Re-upload? Well. I'll say here what I said in the first upload. What would the public think of Thomas Andrews if he had survived? Thomas was the ship's designer. It was for all intents and purposes his baby. He would take meticulous notes on any voyage he took (that little detail in the film of him on the grand staircase with the book was accurate) to ensure his ships were up to snuff.
I think if Thomas Andrews had survived...The public wouldn't care that Thomas wasn't the captain. The public wouldn't care that Thomas wasn't the one who pushed for more speed. The public wouldn't even care that he helped as many as he could before being offered a seat.
At the end of the day, it's about what's easy, not right. And it would be all too easy for Thomas to take the blame. Even overshadowing Ismay simply because he was the shipbuilder. The public would look at that title, see that the ship seemed as "unsinkable" had sunk because of a hole torn in her bow, and blame the most convenient person.
It wouldn't be fair. But I do think the public would've torn Andrews to shreds.
I think there’s a strong chance he would’ve faired better but he still would’ve gotten a shit ton of the blame simply because of how associated he is with the ship and the fact that he would’ve been a man surviving.
They didn’t too much care that probably more women survived then men did, the fact that any men survived over women would’ve set them off.
Oh hey! I remember seeing this comment in the last upload. This one was a really good eye opening what if!
@@Rebelheart1985 Since we are already on the topic, how do you think they would have treated Murdoch if had he survived?
Everyone associated with the Titanic was blamed to some extent, though those who died in the sinking were certainly given more grace. Lightoller wasn't on watch when the berg was struck and actually stayed with the ship until the ship left him. Still, his career was ruined by Titanic. Alexander Carlisle was at least as involved, if not more than Thomas Andrews in the design of Titanic. He wasn't on the ship, but faced some tough grilling in the British Inquiry and it's fair to guess that Andrews would have faced the same.
However, the number of lifeboats carried by Titanic beyond the Board of Trade mandated minimum was ultimately a decision that came from White Star. Titanic had the capacity to carry up to 64 boats and an early plan submitted by Carlisle showed 48 boats being carried. It does need to be said that this was mostly "future proofing" Titanic against anticipated changes in regulations. Still, there was no benefit or motive for H&W to restrict the number of lifeboats. Whatever White Star ordered, the cost would have been passed on to them. H&W was generally safety conscious, as seen by the other features built into Titanic, but they also couldn't insist that White Star carry more boats than they were legally obligated to. How hard H&W actually pushed White Star, their paying customer, to buy and carry more boats... that's not precisely clear. The four additional collapsibles demonstrate that there was some thought / compromise in that direction. It would have been interesting to hear Andrews' account this, as he was managing director when Titanic was fitted.
@@faithhopelove9567
Probably the same way Lowe was treated. Lowe was seen as a hero. I can imagine it would’ve been the same for Murdoch. Hell he already is seen as a hero. His career thing……I’m not so sure.
Though Wilde and Moody would’ve probably been associated with the myth that an officer shot himself if Murdoch had of survived.
A fascinating follow up could be a video about The Californian (the Captain of it was nearly as vilified as Ismay)
Captain Stanley Lord of the Californian. Sometimes he is scapegoated worse then the J. Bruce Ismay. When the truth is, the Californian, even if they mounted an attempt to save Titanic. They would have made it the same time as Carpathia. The Californian was much slower then Carpathia, despite being closer to Titanic. Then when Californian found out in the morning that Titanic had sunk, when they arrived on the scene as Carpathia was leaving. Carpathia asked them to look for any possible stray survivors, which Californian did. Another Mount Temple, who was planning to make it to Titanic, I believe was told to stop the rescue attempt because it was too dangerous by the ship owners. But weren't vilified like Californian was.
Agreed.
And if you think about it, the Californian probably wouldn't have made much of a difference even if the crew had reacted at the first sign of trouble. She was fully shut down for the night, surrounded with ice and slow by design.
Of course, maybe a few dozen more people could have been saved, though it's still unlikely, but the death toll would still be huge.
Edit: my point is that the Californian would have only just beaten the Carpathia in the best-case scenario, or more likely arrived approximately at the same time.
@@doctoremil2678Californian wasn't "fully shut down" since the two boilers had to be kept going to provide heat and standby steam just in case the ship needed to get underway due to the drifting ice. If you need to see just how fast she could've gotten underway, look at how fast she did once Lord gave the order to do so around 4 am and after going THROUGH the ice field to the incorrect location, and then down southeast and back up, she arrived around 6 am where Carpathia was.
Had Lord done something at around 12-1 am, she might've arrived in time to rescue a few people, and then the survivors in the lifeboats (saving lives lost due to exposure in Boats A and B). Lord would've been celebrated as a great hero for trying, and likely supplanted Rostron in history.
@@doctoremil2678 So, you believe that savings a few dozen more people really wasn't worth the effort. Clearly, you weren't Captain Rostron in an earlier life!
@@dovetonsturdee7033 Of course not, they absolutely should have got going as soon as they suspected something wasn't right.
I’ve been binge watching your Titanic videos since I discovered the channel last month and this one just popped up right as I’ve got home from a screening of Titanic the musical, excellent timing!
I found on UTUBE “Hero’s of the Titanic” Awesome movie !! Hope you’ll find it
Ismay is a complicated guy. He did help fill boats up to the end. There probably weren’t any other passengers immediately around. But we can never know how hard he looked. He didn’t offer to trade places with any crewman who was lowering his boat. Of course that wasn’t his job and he wouldn’t have been as capable as a trained crewman. I’m guessing he was neither a hero nor a villain, just a man in a situation he never expected to encounter.
Makes sense. He was a businessman who cared about his ships maiden voyages. He wasn't in his element for the situation the ship was in
Tbh, he did more that night that he was trained for. He helped to fill the boats but he was no seaman and it would've made no sense for him to trade places with one of the officers. He wouldn't have been helpful in the last moments of the Titanic.
He was exactly what he was on board - a passenger. Not a hero or a stoic, just a man who did his part. The Oscar Schindler approach is idealistic; in real life people would probably either save themselves straight on, or save a few others and then themselves. The responsibility for saving everyone lies with the ship's crew.
There were THREE spots still open after Ismay boarded. If someone was around that wanted and could leave on the boat they had their chance. Men had the chance to throw their girl into boat, mothers had the chance to dump their kids in the boat, if there was ANYONE around who was free to leave the ship or had someone they wanted to live THERE...WAS...ROOM! Also he doesn't seem like the guy to be trained for ship work so helping with lowering a boat would be a HORRIBLE idea since you have to make sure everything is in sync with a firm grip, and being near the end of sinking is the worst time to try your hand at it since any misstep could dump the people into the ocean, like what almost happened with Lifeboat 5.
I’ve been fascinated by the tragedy of the Titanic for over 5 years now, was an obsession but not so much anymore, but just an incredible story that seems to simple on the surface but is so much more complex that you realise. I recently subscribed to this account and say this, sceptical to watch just as I would be about many things, but my view in J.B. Ismay has been changed significantly! The media does make him seem to be the typical villain, but after watching this, I feel guilty for thinking of him as a villain before. Incredible story on Ismay!!👏🏻👏🏻
🏆👏🙂 bravo episode, Mr. Brady.
Our family truly appreciates your work.
Re-upload. Really, Brady? Now, I have to backtrack my thoughts of what I have previously written...
Who's really in focus here is William Randolph Hearst Sr. From what we know of both his business, private life and personal thoughts, he was an opportunistic vulture, despicable human being and repulsive creature. Somebody should made well documented video about him, rather than Titanic's demise.
As for the media made about this tragedy, S.O.S. Titanic (TV movie) is the only one that portrays J. Bruce Ismay in a fair light. Here, he acknowledges J. Edward Smith's judgment of what is best for voyage and the ship.
You never know how you’re going to act in the presence of death until it actually happens. The fact that Ismay was on the last lifeboat tells you the claims that he was a coward are false. With his power and position he could have very easily gotten into a boat earlier.
I love these detailed videos! After watching this, I now have a new understanding of the man and his mindset.
If I see his depiction again in films or shows, Ill forever look at him in a different light. Poor guy..
Excellent as always, thank you again Mike.
Ismay's wife said that sometimes she would find him in their bedroom or in his study, walking around and making up "what ifs" of that night on how the tragedy could have been avoided and that he would smile at those thoughts, perhaps because it made him feel like he could go back in time and put his "what ifs" on pratice.
May I ask where this is mentioned? I have never heard of this before and have read quite a bit about it. However, this might be true. A family friend said: ’’He tormented himself with useless speculation as to how the disaster could possible have been avoided. If only he had not ordered the building of the ship in the first place or if only she had struck the iceberg in any other way; these and similar thoughts haunted him continually, but he was not able to have the relief of discussing the subject, which might have helped share the burden, as Florence would never have the subject mentioned.’’
Florence [Mrs. Bruce Ismay] was quite protective of Ismay. She was just trying to make a life comfortable for him by avoiding the subject to be discussed. They were both victims of the Titanic in some sense. Florence’s sister Constance who had married Bruce’s brother Bower, was probably the only one in the family who talked to Ismay about the Titanic.
@@Auerfelt I remember reading this in several articles about Ismay's life post-Titanic
Mike Brady, You are a delightful man doing this titanic special on Bruce Ismay, I find you have given us a more clear and understanding point of view as to why this happened to this poor soul. I feel for the guy...who would not do the same thing in his shoes. Maybe not everyone but who can judge What a person would do in a situation like that. He probably lived and died with a broken heart .
To me, a man that stays on a sinking boat in the middle of the ocean, trying to save as many lives as possible, try to make himself available for court proceedings, brings up insurance payments every meeting, and has the strength to live on for his family instead of succumbing to the trauma and nearly endless public scrutiny isn't a villain, that is a hero
I agree!!!
Yes he must have thought that he would be a credible voice for what happened as he was informed of what was going on whereas passengers weren’t. He was also not of any use for the ship itself (not an engineer etc) and with the custom of the main crew staying on ship till the last second they have a high likelihood of not making it. It made him the man alive trusted with the most information on the night of the sinking. He could not help directly but he could tell later. I have great respect for him and all he tried to do after the disaster.
Another superbly researched video by easily one of the best presenters here> Another big thank you to Mike and company !
Odd this was re-uploaded right as I was halfway through the original upload.
I was really looking forward to this one - thank you for such wonderfully informative videos!!
Having not seen the "A Night to Remember" film yet but a big lover the book it's based on, I'm surprised and disappointed that the film also fell into this trap when the book didn't vilify Ismay at all; the author Walter Lord even pointed out the same things mentioned here, that Ismay got into one of the last lifeboats only after there were no women and children to be seen, and spent much of his time assisting passengers that night.
Edit after finally seeing the movie: the portrayal of Ismay was not as bad as I thought it would be. Unlike most other Titanic movies, it did not push the lie that Ismay pressured Smith into breaking speed records. The film did show him helping passengers into lifeboats, and even though his quick jump into a lifeboat was portrayed as cowardice, it did at least acknowledge he checked around for other passengers before getting in. While it's a low bar to clear, I'd say "A Night to Remember" has the most grounded portrayal of Ismay of any Titanic film.
Many Thanks Mike, really enjoy your channel. Clearly a passion for you and a great education for your audience. Look forward to ongoing content, keep it up. Great lessons in this one, something we still see with the media of today and on human behaviour like with Ismay and those involved.
Your channels are among the most professional on UA-cam. 👍
I never realized... thank you for sharing it. Definitely look at it differently now.
Why did you repost this video? Also I LOVE YOU VIDEOS MIKE!!!❤❤❤ YOU GOT ME BACK INTO OCEANLINERS!!! 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
UA-cam and maybe some viewers likely didn't have a favorable view of the original video. It's a sad shame since the original had more than 52,000 views in half a day since it was released.
Another amazing video! Just ordered my self one of your guys “triple screw” sweaters. Can’t wait for it to come in! Keep it up!
Spending money on shiuuuut
I admit to having loathed Ismay for many years. His reputation as a coward who sneaked aboard a lifeboat in women's attire was solidly cemented into Titanic lore.
In recent years I have come to respect the man who did all the good he possibly could in a terrible situation.
But he had survivors sign away their rights to compensation for $25 each in the weeks immediately after the disaster. Just more spineless greed...😢
@@egm8602 I mean, there was what he did (set up a fund for ship sinking survivors etc etc), and what WSL (the subsidiary company he directed, as an employee, not owner) did under WSL guidelines.
Do u think he knows and now he hates U or do U think he dosent care? Do u believe there an afterlife
@@egm8602Do you have a link to a source for that?
@@egm8602Even if that was true, you do realize that $25 in 1912 is worth approximately $795 today (2024) right?
i wanted to say i love your new intro!! it’s really awesome :)
I am a huge fan of Ismay. Thank you for sharing this Mike. I know it’s true he became a recluse, however, he was truly beloved by many. This idea about getting to port at night being a flippant conversation between the higher-ups is a juicy tidbit. I still question, however, what prompted him onto the lifeboat? He had to have known the ship was doomed and that more than half the people aboard would go down with her. There is some evidence from the inquiry, that men were needed on the lifeboats to row and some men declined boarding because they didn’t know how to row, but Ismay did. What did he actually say about the matter in his testimony? Also, he was too in his robe and slippers, so maybe his communication with Andrews and other crew was limited after she struck? This is a psychological drama, Austin Stark, Richard Glatzer, or Sofia Coppola film in the making! 😊
Original video was made private and this re-uploaded? Original ID ended E2M this ends BSY. What changed? I think a video clip is missing but not exactly sure, it seems the same? Both videos were 19:47 long. Anyway...
Guess that reminds me of the quote from someone famous, might it have been Churchill who said 'History is written by the victors' - although this wasn't a story born from war, it was a story born for someone looking for someone to blame and shows how certain details can be construed to construct a narrative to serve someone else's purposes. At least finally, it seems that the more nuanced facts are starting to reveal that Ismay wasn't as much as a villain as he'd been made. It seems like it weighed heavily on him afterwards and that bit at the end saying he'd died in 1937 but mentally 'died' after the disaster. I hope he finally was able to rest in peace. Edit: fixed 1937 date (originally put 1931 which was wrong)
Cracking video as always.
I would say this is one of your best ever videos. It is very important that facts are not lost to sensationalism, a thing as true today as it was a century ago.
I have to admit that if I were in his position and the opportunity presented itself to save myself then I would certainly take it.
As you should. How many people unnecessary died that day because they felt they had to die an "honourable" death...
Many would live like cowards because they have no morals, it is not even about the fact that I survived when there were women and children but rather that I survived being GUILTY, whether I like it or not, if 2000 people died because of me, I would rather die than save myself. 😷
@@jerson.romantico.1521 You see it is that attitude that contributed to excessive deaths. If everyone shared the attitude that they better not escape in a lifeboat because others would miss out, then all the lifeboats would be considerably empty. Therefore less survivors. The better attitude would have been to fill those lifeboats to the brim, men, women, crew, fill them as full as you can and save as many people as possible. Sure some people will miss out, but you have to make a try for it. If you don't value your own life, then you have no hope of saving other lives.
Nicely done presentation and analysis of the facts.
I've always thought ismsy got an unfair rep. He didn't do what almost anyone else wouldn't have done. He was a scapegoat and that's all. The fact he stayed on the ship almost to the end and helped get women and children off the ship while helping to keep order speaks volumes. He was unfairly drug through the mud
Had he been in a situation like this, you just know that Hearst would have been running over people, and tossing women and children out of the life boats, in order to save his own
self-important ass! He's awful smug while sitting in his comfy chair behind a desk.
Amen to that. If there is one thing I've learned in life is that the most self righteous people are the first to crack and abandon their morals when push comes to shove.
Ismay deserved redemption. This was a really good video
Thank you. This was an excellent presentation.
Thank you for always digging for the truth
These misrepresentations of titanic pushed for over a century really have me concerned about the new titanic documentary that's being released. Unsinkable Titanic Untold.
Great video. Would love to see a video about Alexander Carlisle and Thomas Andrew’s and their differences in the design
I learned about ismay from the film, so it's nice to see a more realistic, balanced and nuanced discussion here
Fantastic video. Well researched - thank you for sharing!
It's for reasons like this that I feel James Cameron's Titanic might be due for a remake by him, with a lot more accuracy put in to the film. The hard part would be keeping the studio out of it, as studios (ironically) love to dictate what can and can't be done on some films, and how their money should be spent.
Film studios today are often the moustache twirling villains they portrayed Ismay as.
I think the obvious thing about Cameron's Titanic and real or fictionalized actions and words of real-life people who were on the ship are merely background and supplemental to the complete fiction of the Romeo and Juliet-like love story of Jack and Rose. They even supply their own fictional bad guys in Rose's fiancé Cal and his surly body man played by David Warner, along with the mystery of the big diamond pendant. Unlike say, A Night to Remember, Cameron does not let the actions of the real people and events supply all the plotting and drama of the sinking but conjures up a neat fiction as the centerpiece. Don't get me wrong, I think it is a great picture and top shelf entertainment, but if you are looking for documentary type history, Cameron's Titanic is the wrong place to look. He did go to great lengths to provide accuracy, but only so far as to set up verisimilitude for the story of the doomed lovers. It surprises me not at all that Ismay is bashed as all of the first-class elites, except for Molly Brown, are depicted as despicable and clueless baddies, while the steerage folks, like Jack, are ebullient and noble good guys. That's the whole Capulet-Montague thing. Ismay falls into the former category so, of course he must be arrogant, churlish and, yes, cowardly. I think the scene which puts the most damning stamp on Ismay has little or no dialogue. When the last lifeboat is getting ready to be lowered and Ismay jumps in, the Murdoch (I think) character shoots him a stare that registers complete disgust while Ismay looks around in every direction except back at Murdoch who continues to stare down Ismay as the boat is lowered. Ismay looks for all the world like someone who is breaking the rules and knows it. In a wordless scene Cameron conveys what was claimed by the press afterward. the guy's a gutless coward. Great moviemaking; lousy history.
@@mjhbuckeye Very true. I do remember among when I heard Cameron's whole pitch to the studio was "Romeo and Juliet on the Titanic", and that's all it took, but you are correct that that stayed the centrepiece. However I do recall James Cameron stating in an interview that is isn't a directed that dives to make films, he's a diver that makes films to dive, or something to that effect, essentially implying he uses his money to fund more diving expeditions.
I do still feel like James Cameron should remake the film (practical effects have come a long way, and more can be done with the assist of just a little CGI, more so that when the original was made), but he could probably use another centrepiece for the story. What that could be, I don't know, but I'm sure there's something.
But to be honest, I just want another film made by him that doesn't involve blue people that have smex with their tails.
I did not care for James Cameron's version. A Night to Remember is far more accurate.
@@heleneharris6904 I suppose then it becomes a matter, what's more important to the viewer? Accuracy, or entertainment? It's a conundrum.
Though there is another option, Cameron makes Titanic, but not a movie movies, but a documentary movie, like March of The Penguins.
Thankyou! Thankyou! Thankyou for doing this video. I had fallen in love with the Titanic when the wreck discovery was announced in 1986. And it always bothered me that one man, Bruce Ismay was demonized. And my heart sank when James Cameron did the same.
WELL DONE Mike Brady! I'm curious, do you have an opinion of Captain Stanley Lord as well? Obviously, he was tagged the other villain of the Titanic disaster. I am not convinced that history has been fair to Captain Lord, yet still cannot understand why he never turned-on his radio.
@jasona9 they only had 1 wireless operator unlike Titanic who had 2, also the Titanic's wireless operator told them the Californian to shut up and that they were busy when he tried to warn the Titanic about the ice fields so he turned off is Marconi device and went to bed before any of the distress calls went out from the Titanic. Although there are reports that crew members of the Californian saw the Titanic's distress rockets, but either thought they were company rockets or from a different ship further behind the Titanic.
Another well told story. Thank you Mike!
Thank you Mike for making this video. Hollywood (& Cameron) has prospered from making Ismay a false villain in the story of Titanic for over a century. Had they shown how the captain and crew of the Californian behaved during the tragedy in the movies, I think people would slowly understand that Ismay wasn't a villain but a tragic victim/factor who saw his dream collapse in front of his eyes and who made very "human decisions."
This was a great watch this morning and a great watch tonight. Sorry you had to reupload but this video made me go listen to Ismay’s Senate testimony. It’s interesting to read/hear.
Excellent video l! Hope it doesn’t get taken down again. I hope you’ll keep doing videos on the passengers of Titanic.
Thanks... Liked Subscirbed...
For what it's worth... I find the flashy editing somewhat distracting and less enjoyable than previous more dignified style... The energetic transitions... sound effects... etc. I'd felt the understated tone of the editing was much more agreeable... Just a thought.
Thanks again... Always enjoyable.
Same, not a fan of the whole dopamine editing, was way better before.
He removed the 3 second long clip of Captain Smith that was in the last video
Really? Is that all it was?
@@Rick_ClelandWouldn't doubt it. UA-cam is very finicky about using clips these days.
Unique work! Keep it up I wish you all the best!
This really shows you that the media has always been the same. Sacrificing yourself for others is noble, making it a requirement is utter foolishness. RIP Ismay.
4:32 I agree with you. People spoke differently 100 years ago. His statement could have been as simple as being proud of the ship and being happy it was not malfunctioning. Every maiden voyage has something break, even if it benign as a hose coming lose. Sometimes boilers exploded. Being grateful a newer type steam boiler hasnt sent shrapnel through the deck isnt anything to be ashamed of.
If you were going to pressure or threaten the captain, it wouldnt be outside the bridge anyway, especially in the 1900s.
AN OD VIDEO ON MY BIRTHDAY! Thanks Mike. Is this a reupload?? Good nonetheless. Thanks for sharing this!
Hi man, I love your channel. I have a suggestion for you, a video explaining the Titanic pumps, and how many of them would have been necessary to save the ship
Like 300 pumps
Since 1912, Ismay has been the villain in Titanic's story. But in 2024 and beyond, William Hearst is the real villain. Ismay was an innocent passenger who was bundled into a boat, to ensure that he was present in the inquiry of the sinking. And he helped many escaped that night while willing to stay behind til the end but the officers were following orders to save as many passengers as possible.
Nonsense. Hurst was a mixed bag certainly but someone died so this guy could save his skin. Screw him.
@@M167A1 If I'm getting the message you tried to convey, then I disagree. Had Ismay not boarded that boat, his seat would have been empty. Ismay didn't "steal" that seat from anyone.
There was no one (woman or child) nearby to take it instead. So, there would have been one more victim.
@@M167A1Mate, that couldn't be further from the truth.
Who, on a practically deserted deck, would have died to save Ismay?
Other than the Officers, the only people around Collapsible C was Ismay and a 1st Class Gentleman (Whose name currently escapes me). Both got in.
If there is anyone to blame for the number of survivors, it's Lightoller. _He_ launched boats at quarter to half capacity.
@@VelociraptorsOfSkyrimThere was a study done and it found the ships rate of sinking was fast enough that it shouldn’t have been able to launch as many boats as it did.
Simply put if they launched half the amount of total boats filling to full capacity there’d be less survivors as a good portion of survivors entered lifeboats after jumping in the water.
@@M167A1 Did you ignore the entire video that Oceanliner Designs posted? There was nobody around and that the boat wasn't even full proves that because if another person was there, they would have jumped in too since there was room.
Hats off to your courage and attention to detail.
I would hope the decedents of Mr Ismay could see this video and your exoneration of this situation. An expert historian without careless rhetoric. An outstanding reveal that otherwise would continue to discredit his name. Thank you for this amazing documentary!
You can always recommend this video to the descedants of Bruce Ismay. You can try to find them under the names such as Cheape, Sanderson and Hovell-Thurlow-Cumming-Bruce.
Thank you for the video.
Wasn't William Randolph Hearst the one that stirred the Frenzy and started the spanish-american war...?
Yep
Great story telling! Thank you Mike.
I know people like to preach “women and children first” and “of course I’d give up my seat” but until you’re in that situation you can’t judge. I never once thought badly of him, I was scared just watching the movie, can’t imagine what everyone actually involved, including him, were feeling 😔😔😔
Very interesting video, its quite sad really what happened to Ismay and how he was treated and that its stuck to this day
As always, excellent work. A fine case for the defence of a man whose prosecution has gone on for 112 years.
I would disagree, however, on a philosophical point about the ‘chest-thumping’ culture of the era. You conflate nationalism with the wider concept of honour. The nationalism is ridiculous as you say, but not the courage and honour, which are far more relevant to this case. I don’t think anyone believes Ismay should have gone down with the ship for nationalistic reasons. Whilst Peter Pan mentions ‘English gentlemen’, the point is that Brits wanted to believe they exemplified this fine quality of courage and honour, and only by extension would demonstrating these qualities reflect well on your countrymen.
More to the point, though, you criticise this sort of romantic honour, and then make a case for its existence with the rest of the video. You call Ismay’s escape a miscalculation, and show us how destroyed a man he became. Surely this is precisely why a man of the era may have chosen instead to die with honour in such circumstances. The fact that he did not may also show that this attitude had less strong a hold than you suggest.
Personally, I think Ismay did the right thing in saving one more soul, as Smith points out. Facing death with Peter Pan’s courage wasn’t necessary for him, and would have achieved nothing. Nevertheless, I think it’s a fine way for someone facing a genuinely inescapable fate to behave, and I wouldn’t be inclined to criticise it, or the teaching of such courage to children. It is precisely the sort of honour that begat the Birkenhead Drill in the first place-one of the finest acts of honour in modern history.
Just a comment, not a criticism. Thanks for work and the video!
I feel bad for J Bruce Ismay. When I learned about his backstory and what he did, I did Facebook Post to show others a difference in him. He never removed any additional boats, he was just following Board of Trade regulations from the 1890s, ships over 10000 Tons carry 16 Lifeboats. The WSL was never in on a speed record as it was costly and short lived, their last blue ribbon holder was Teutonic of 1889. Maybe he was just checking on Titanics performance like he did with Olympics Maiden Voyage. He got Cedric to stay in hopes to take him and the crew back to Europe, they were traumatized by the disaster. William Randolph Hearst inherited his father SF Newspaper and he offered Ismay to join him, Ismay wasn’t comfortable with the press, so he turned down the offer. Hearst use this as slander to tarnish Ismay reputation. The Crew on Titanic were extremely unprepared for a situation of Titanics. Are. lifeboats at the time were meant to ferry passengers between ships after using the wireless to call for help, as shown with RMS Republic. He saved himself when the area was clear. He resigned from WSL in 1913 ensuring families receive compensation. In the 1930s he tried to save the company in the Depression but was unsuccessful and he passed away RIP.
Excellent analysis and reporting 👍
J Bruce ismay wasn't a coward.. Want to ask some people who call him a coward has ever been on a sinking ship.. That's it
Well said! People usually don't understand ships.There is a lot of people who likes to think that J. Bruce Ismay left people to get drown and saved himself at the expense of others. But that's just a malicious fantasy, nothing more.
Thanks for speaking up for him.
I think it’s not fair for people who have never been in a life or death situation like the titanic to call someone a coward because they wanted to live.
This guys got the best Titanic videos
I'm curious, does UA-cam have a grudge against Ismay? I'm kind of surprised that this video got context flagged, since you repeatedly refer to historical records.
No those flags are autogenerated and have nothing to do with the opinions or goals of the video.
YT started doing it during Covid ironically the content they been made to originally target was a conspiracy which turned out true.