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massive respect to you guys for hosting this. Most podcasts that talk about culture wars, controversies, IDW-type stuff etc. shy away from this like the plague (or only talk for the pro-choice side since that's more popular among their in-group).
It is a very good debate but I have always found it disingenuous when men talk about abortion. Even if the men are sensitive, well educated and erudite the issue of authenticity remains. Women tend to bear the brunt of child-bearing and child rearing. Men are still not as actively involved in looking after children. Absent fathers are even less involved..! He is absolutely bang on the money about abortion facilitating male irresponsibility. Men used to have to 'step up' but now they can disappear more readily... Dr Miller is correct to say that the focus should be on sanctity of life rather than population control. Sadly, the rise in liberalism associated with free love and casual intercourse has lead to a more fractured society with more fatherless children. However, it is naive and childish to deduce causation from correlation. 🤔 Did legal abortions cause single-parent families or was it a change in attitude towards marriage OR available support from social security payments?! Like many, I hate the notion of abortion and abhor the rampant sexualisation of modern society. There is more often very little excuse for all these "unwanted" pregnancies. Termination of viable infants is utterly barbaric! It is shocking that any procedure beyond 20 weeks is legally sanctioned 😞 It is a symptom of a sick culture that decides to treat humans as just another commodity. However, bad abortions have been going on for centuries. 'Clean', safer abortion has assisted improvements in underprivileged women's health over the last 60 years. Statistically, only a minority of women truly 'regret' their abortion. The noisy voices of those who express extreme sorrow almost always drown out the silent majority who just carry on with their lives. That is rarely debated or discussed openly. The statistics quoted here and elsewhere are skewed by selection bias, survival bias and volunteer bias. Huge reductions in child bearing have liberated women across the World. Huge reductions in childbirth have enabled women to be educated. Of course, the vast majority of this has been due to public health measures, widespread contraception and better health education. However, abortions have also contributed to the reduction in childbirth everywhere. There will be the ongoing mistreatment, abuse and rape of women resulting in genuinely 'unwanted' pregnancies. Women will seek to end those pregnancies so there needs to be a way of controlling and regulating these terminations. The World is overpopulated and from a utilitarian point of view less mouths to feed is not a bad thing however sick it makes us feel. It is ironic that Russia & China which used to promote infanticide have reversed their decades old policies due to the threat of their demographic collapse. Well done guys. Good episode 👍🏾
@@KloppMichaelBarnes You sound brain washed by feminists. There's nothing disingenuous about respecting a father has an equal part in creating a child. If, like me, you reach middle age after watching your partners dismiss your interest in raising a child to continue your family name so they can spend their lives thinking about nothing but their careers and impressing people by being a powerful woman, you'll understand. Only an idiot dismisses a man's interest in having a child, those idiots are generally feminists, the clue is in the title - they're only thinking of themselves. Sorry to be so blunt but you need to wake up and stop bending over for women who wouldn't bear you a thought, you're only doing that because it gets their approval - trouble is, the approval of those women gets you precisely nothing.
When the doctor says that what we all have in common is being human, I understand where he's coming from. As a Healthcare worker, I've seen patients with brain damage or dementia who barely are aware of your existence, and I've seen people be rough with or ignore their basic dignity with the excuse of " they don't even realize...they can't even tell we are talking about them...they won't notice they aren't clothed..etc. I try not to react too emotionally but I sit down and explain to them that these people have lived for 80 years. They've had great loves, they've lost those loves, and they've Seen things that worker never will. And they are entitled to your respect whether they can tell you that or not.
The only issue there is that we still haven't defined what being human is. Which is really the crux of this debate. Although I will say that once you possess whatever it is that makes you human, you can never lose it.
@@spracketskooch I don't think you'll find that answer anytime soon. But we certainly can discuss limits on the current state of the laws, and how to promote birth and adoption. Financial barriers are what i see as a main issue in most women. Hard to work with a newborn, and welfare help is pretty pathetic.
@@spracketskooch well to be fair, the term "human being" has been defined conclusively in science, which is why even leading pro-abortion advocates like Singer, Boonin, Sumner, Jeff McMahan, John Harris, Alberto Giubilini, Kate Greasley, etc. agree that the unborn are human beings. The problem is that most people use the term "human being" in the philosophical sense rather than the biological, which is actually fine because human rights, personhood, moral status, etc. are philosophical concepts and considerations. Also, most leading pro-abortion advocates and defenders of abortion themselves can't seem to agree on what a person or a human being is. I think that fact alone counts against their position. If they can't say for certain when human rights/moral status begins, i don't think they're in a position to judge when abortion is justified. if you don't know for certain, you should err on the side of caution, since violating the right to life is a serious matter.
@@spracketskooch this really doesn't matter. The foetus will be a human being. A person in a coma is less a human then a foetus, but we try our hardest to bring that person back, because they have the privilege of people knowing who they are/were and relationships that have impacted people. A baby has not had that chance, the only person they can rely on for care, love and speak for them is the mother. They can't appeal to anyone else for their right to their life and the opportunity to fulfill their potential and to give back the love the mother gave them. It's so unjust not to give them a chance.
My birth mom found out too late that she was pregnant with me back in the 80s in South Korea and could not get an abortion. She carried me to 9 mos. And she then put me up for adoption. I feel so blessed by the family God placed me in. Thank you for having this conversation!
Thank you too. Im in South Korea right now, there are very poor adoption rates in 2022, children are still shipped overseas, abortion was still illegal until 2021. Nothing changed since the 80s. Many Korean adoptees are unhappy and want to go back to Korea, its nice to see a happy ending.
My moms car broke down on the way to abort me. She continued to do drugs while pregnant I’m assuming in hopes that I would die. The will to live is strong though ! She gave birth to me, and gave me up for adoption. I was 4lbs, had withdrawal symptoms for several weeks according to my aunt whom adopted me. I had a very rocky start in life, struggled with drug, and alcohol abuse myself. I’m now 31, and feel very thankful for my struggles. It gave me character, and I’m happy to be alive. When I became pregnant there was a bit of panic, and my mom admitted to me she had an abortion after having me that she regrets to this day. My son is 2 1/2, and we are so happy arrived when he did despite our financial struggles. When I heard his heartbeat for the first time on that sonogram machine I cried. It changed my views on abortion. How could the thought even run through my mind. Now I think about life so differently thanks to him. He was so special to me even before he was in my hands. That’s my 2 cents about asking someone who was an unwanted child 🙋🏽♀️ God had bigger plans for me !
I am a mother whose first pregnancy was unwanted. Twins. An abusive relationship and eventually a single mom. We were dirt poor for years and it was a real struggle. I am so grateful I chose to keep them. Everything good in my life now has grown from my choice to keep my children.
That's beautiful, I believe when we make the right decision, no matter how hard it is at the time, it blesses us later on. Kudos to you! Delighted for you!
And when your life has turned out the way it had if you had had an abortion you would likely be thinking "thankfully I was never burdened with the unwanted child." Hindsight is a terrible way of justifying behaviour because it is, by definition, a self-fulfilling sequence of events.
A brilliant interview, which I bet most other podcasts and/or news outlets would be too "uncomfortable" to host. It's given me quite a bit of food for thought. Massive props to Triggernometry for having Calum on.
Philosophically, you'll be well prepared when you become unexpectedly pregnant! Alternatively, I'm sure you would agree that we should hold biological father EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE for 18 YEARS of the money AND the time required to raise a child!
@@wessexmomYes, we should expect the father to step up. Some say the women's liberation movement has just liberated men. Abortion allows them to walk away and go on to be irresponsible again.
I suffered from years of trauma and depression after having an abortion which I wasn’t expecting. The only thing that set me free was acknowledging the truth about what I’d done regardless of what I was told that my baby was merely “a clump of cells”. I’m walking with Jesus now and am still healing to this day. Thank God for this man and his bravery for speaking on behalf of truth. I live in LA and know I wouldn’t get past two sentences with most people in this city about this topic. Keep on the good fight especially for those who are in silent suffering. Also Planned Parenthood in particular went on trial in 2020 and were found guilty of selling baby body parts from abortions and needed to make a QUOTA. If I could go back I’d have abstained from sex until I was either married and or ready for the consequences. God bless you all and thank you for this interview
I have an adopted son and I am so grateful his parents gave him up. He is a gift to this world. 6'4" piece of love. My biological son and choosen sons are equally loved.
So? I know many people irreparably damaged by childhood trauma and neglect that's driven them to drugs and homelessness. Even with abortion being legal, there are hundreds of thousands of kids who slip through the cracks. Get ready for a whole lot more!!
As someone who, in his early 20s, encouraged his girlfreind to have an abortion because it wasnt the right time, id have many more opportunities to have kids, and hey, what the hell, its just a bunch of cells anyway - thats what they always told me. No big deal. Well, now im in my 40s and that second chance never came, and now im sooo much more aware of this incredible world and this incredible gift of life we all get. I only wish that back then my freinds and my community hadnt been so cavalier to train my mind to think nothing of abortion, that it was just a $600 outpatient procedure and that would be the end of it. I had no idea what i was doing - I was barely any more conscious than the baby, my own kid, that i had snuffed out. I dont know the right answers on this issue, but i sure wish all the wieght and consequenses of what i was ACTUALLY doing was layed out a little more evenly. My whole life would have been different.
So basically you're saying your girlfriend should not have had access to an abortion, ie been forced to bear a pregnancy she did not want because you're sad that no woman ever wanted to have children with you ? I mean, you do realize that we are human beings with wants and fears and desires and not merely bodies to incubate your babies because you want some ?
And HAHAH "your own kid". You never had a kid. You had an embryo that depended on a full grown human being to itself become a human being. And guess what ? That woman didn't have to produce that kid for you.
@@murderoustendencies she wanted the baby. Also, You seem to be so obssessed with your ideology, that it instantly turns into rage when threatened by anything. Nothing i said above, is deserving of your pre-canned rebuttle. The arguments dont counter-match. I was just explaining a personal account of the consequenses of abortion and how i thought it would be helpful for younger people to have a more well rounded view of the big picuture. If you want to argue, its good to start by understanding your opponents point, maybe even assume good faith. For example, If i wanted to say something snarky to counter what you actually just said...i might say: its NOT your body, thats the point. But, I also know these are complicated problems. Also, your kind of a jerk. Please have all the abortions you want.
Everything in your first paragraph applies to me. Apart from maybe the incredible world bit, but hey, you're entitled to your opinion... I just wanted to say, firstly, there's nothing to be gained from worrying about what might have been - ever. All you're doing is making yourself unhappy unnecessarily, and trust me, I am an expert on that subject. Secondly, we often look back on our younger selves and see ourselves as fools, but the truth is it's hindsight that makes us look foolish. I'm sure you did what you thought was the right thing at the time, and if you had your time again, _without the benefit of hindsight,_ you'd make the same choices. So, how can you say you did the wrong thing if you had no way of knowing what you needed to know to do "the right thing" (ie how you would feel about it when you're 40)? Thirdly, have you considered how your life would have panned out in this alternative scenario? Are you still with this girl? How are custody rights in your part of the world? The biggest problem with "what might have been" thinking is "what might have been" is almost invariably an unrealistic fantasy. It's an incredible world, right? So, live in it, not in a fantasy.
I’m a women and also come from a liberal and secular upbringing. After reading from secular philosophers on the issue I also changed my mind. It is a really complex topic. You need to really think deeply about what you consider a person and their rights.
I've never wanted a child, but there would be no chance of sterilisation on the NHS nor could I afford it privately. Fortunately I never got pregnant but the idea of being forced to carry and bear a child I find horrific.
@@hilarygibson3150 There are contraceptives, they are affordable and even several institutions offer them for free. I think the killing can be prevented just with caution. Forced is a strong word. Most cases are not because of forced actions. Marginal cases should not díctate general solutions. Every action has a consequence. If I drive drunk, there is a higher probability that I cause the death of someone. I can prevent it from driving while drinking. If I’m adult enough of having an active sexual life I should also consider the repercussions and act accordingly to prevent undesired outcomes.
@@hilarygibson3150 You would not be "forced" to bear the child if you had freely chosen to risk creating the child - the result would have been entirely your responsibility. You would have "forced" it on yourself.
Who cares about "rights" this isn't a "rights" issue. The world can't even agree what any specific right is, or where it comes from and what it's limitations are. We know what love is, we know what life is, we know what a baby is and how precious that particular life is. If someone wants to terminate a healthy pregnancy instead of protecting and nourishing that life inside them, that act is quite simply evil. It is so sad that many young women have been so corrupted by evil ideas that they argue in favour of killing their children. It's part of how much society does not help each other in their communities anymore, and so many women find themselves or at least perceive themselves as alone and dealing with consequences and responsibilities they aren't ready for without the support they should have.
It’s such a difficult topic to discuss because it’s so emotionally and ethically charged. As a person who had an abortion years ago, I cannot judge a decision I haven’t made myself. It was misrepresented to me. I thought that it would bring things back to how life was before, it was not. The process itself was the worst experience I’ve ever had in my life. And to date, I strongly believe it was the worst thing I have ever done. I am sure that others may not have felt the same. But it compels me to explain more about what actually happens during an abortion. What stage the baby is at when it is done, potentially looking at options. With the right support perhaps the mum may make a different choice. The worst thing possible would be to involve the law. It would be divisive and cruel to both mum and baby and defeats the point. Unbiased information and support is what mothers need.
We definitely need more support and education. But isn't about every related law about the doctor? I don't know what to think about punishing mom's. They definitely should, in some cases, where their abortion methods include giving birth and throwing them in dumpsters.
While I am sorry you went through that, I always treat anecdotes with a massive pinch of salt when applied to issues such as this. After all, it'd be easy to find women who've had abortions and are glad they did. If we say Woman A is happy she had an abortion and Woman B isn't happy she had an abortion it brings us no further forward. Ultimately it has to be the woman's choice and I fear when women only hear one side of the story they may be swayed into making a decision they wouldn't have otherwise made. That applies to *both* sides of the debate.
Your interviews are very successful because you thoughtfully listen and then thoughtfully ask your question (s). This is a rare art today. Thank you very much.
What an interview! I honestly didn't expect 3 men talking about abortion, to be so profound! I got pregnant at 16 and thought, if I was mature/responsible enough to get pregnant, then I was mature/responsible enough to face the consequences. I didn't even consider abortion because the minute I found out I was pregnant, was the minute I realised I was growing my baby. His Dad was an alcoholic, so I thought about raising my baby alone but gave him the opportunity to change when he was born. He didn't and he because abusive, so we split when my son was 18 months old. I was supported by government/benefits to get through college and raise my son. I went to social services and they helped me with furniture. There is and was always support out there. My son is nearly 27 now and I do not regret one second! The descriptions of what abortion entails, was horrifying! I must admit, even as a woman (who would never chose an abortion for myself but believe in choice) just cements my view that the age limit needs to be massively reduced! My Bestie was born at 23wks! Has 2 children of her own! I agree with Konstantin, that the cells being terminated, is much different to later abortion. It certainly shouldn't be allowed to full term! Regardless of any issues! You know by your 2nd scan at latest. Although I also agree that life starts when the cells merge. So it makes it a very difficult situation to get your head around! Really thought provoking conversation! Well done guys!
@William Tell A very good point! I certainly didn't mean that men shouldn't be part of the conversation, more that I didn't expect the conversation to make me think as deeply about abortion, as it did. I wholeheartedly agree with what your saying. Women don't get pregnant by themselves and it should be a 2 way conversation, that I think often gets overlooked (fathers rights). My firstborn sons dad was alcoholic (I say was as he passed away in 2016 at age 44) but he missed his only child's birth to get alcohol and although I did encourage the contact (when safe) he wasn't a great influence. My husband and father of my other 2 sons (married 19 years) would definitely be part of the conversation and is a great father. So I definitely think it depends on the circumstances, as to how involved the fathers are but I agree that abortion affects the dads just as much as it does for the mums.
@@jak4bud I don't think my experience is the only one, I just shared my experience. I had to fight for that support and wasn't given a council house but was offered a housing association house and had to fight for benefits, as a pregnant 16 yr old. I didn't say it was easy but you do get support with housing and finances, if you fight for it in England. At least - that's my experience.
Is the fact that you did not expect men to be able to have a thoughtful conversation about abortion meant to be a reflection on men or of yourself? I’ve come across this self-absorbed attitude amongst women before, and especially amongst ‘feminist’ women. Get over it: it’s a stupid unsupportable position.
My mom didn’t go to someone to abort me but she tried hard to have me not survive. I was her 3rd baby by a 3rd man and she was single. (My parents married when I was 3 and stayed married for 30yrs until she passed) Anyways, we were best friends. That woman was so strong (flaws and all) and I’ll love her forever.
These kinds of conversations are what distinguishes Trig. There are so many other social and ethical issues not well addressed - vivisection, serious mental ill-health, sharia law, the ethics of foreign policy, and on.
FF was quite visibly shaken when the doc described the types of abortion. I was pro-choice in my 20s but gradually changed my position - understanding abortion procedure better and being honest about what is really growing inside of a woman's body (not a "clump of cells") did that. And, of course, becoming a mother. When you hear your baby's heartbeat for the first time or feel the first kick - that just awards the baby with undeniable humanity. The doc is very eloquent. Great episode.
What a truly "fascinating" conversation. I haven't thought about this subject in a long time, having settled long ago on a pro choice view. I think this straight forward, thoughtful conversation did more to make me think about my position in years. We tend to approach so many subjects now in a binary, my-side/your-side way that no one listens to each other. This calm and rational discussion was excellent and appreciated.
💯, the argument that the zygote is a human form by virtue of the value he placed on the study by 5000 biologists should end all arguments against it. Which is why we need to get men vasectomies to prevent the danger to human life, as thier inconvenience is much less than the inconvenience a mother would observe for any reason an abortion is considered. Im sure the religious males will be up for it 😅
My best friend was a child of rape. When I asked his thoughts he said “ I was brought into existence through a tragedy, but killing me for the actions of my genetic Father would have been another” that hit me deep.
This reminds me of one of the books I read in high school, about a man's life, starting from his mother being raped by a white man (she was native) and his later struggles. I was astonished to see how much his mom loved and cared for him regardless. It was inspiring, it reminds me of how much I love my nieces and nephews, even if their dad's are alcoholic creepy scumbags.
But assuming your friend was born in the last 50 or so years his mother made the CHOICE to have him. Abortion being legal didn't stop him being born because pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion, it just means giving woman the option to make the best decision for themselves. Surely woman should not be FORCED to give birth to their rapists baby unless they choose to....surely that's a right they deserve.
I just wanted to comment on one part of this interview which is factually incorrect. I was a nurse specialist in cleft lip and palate up until about 2 years ago and worked in that field for 16 years. A big part of my job was speaking to parents who had just had an antenatal diagnosis of cleft. I had many conversations with parents about the possibility of abortion following an antenatal cleft diagnosis. Whilst it may be true that an abortion over 24 weeks for cleft may be technically legal, in practice it never happens in the UK. If a fetus is otherwise healthy an abortion over 24 weeks for cleft is never allowed. A number of fetuses with cleft lip and/or palate can have other major and life threatening associated abnormalities that mean they will not survive for long after birth. In practice this is the only situation in which an abortion over 24 weeks would be allowed. So it is completely disingenuous to imply a fetus with just a cleft lip could be aborted after this time. Also in practice it is very rare that parents decide to have an abortion due to the presence of a cleft anyway. Abortion after 24 weeks even for serious abnormalities of any type are extremely rare. On a more general note it is also important to say that most serious and life threatening fetal abnormalities can only be diagnosed from about 18 weeks gestation. Due to this the scan to detect these is scheduled between 18 and 22 weeks gestation with most occurring at 20 weeks. Following a diagnosis of a serious fetal abnormality at 20 weeks parents need to have time to take in this information. If they then choose to have an abortion it takes a little time to schedule. The cut off of 24 weeks for an abortion is set to take this into account. Abortions after 24 weeks are only allowed in exceptional circumstances and a fetus just having a cleft is never considered such.
It is not true to say it never happened. I agree the situation is extremely rare, but it did happened, in Hereford Hospitals NHS Trust >10years ago. To agree to termination a 28w pregnancy due to cleft palate, two doctors agreed that the diagnosis of cleft satisfied the clause of severe disability. The doctors were brought to court by J Jepson but the legal challenge was not upheld. There were numerous debates after this case, and even up to this point. 2yrs who MPs have brought a bill to amend the abortion act to exclude cleft lip, cleft palate and clubfoot.
I appreciate your explanation because for me that timeframe seemed so far into the pregnancy. Maybe there should be a clause that only allows that option to those in that awful situation
What a fantastic interview. I really appreciate the genuine pushback from Konstantin and I appreciate the guest’s calm demeanor and reasoned responses.
A woman that births a child conceived from rape is commendable, but to mandate and force a women to carry that child to birth seems completely unreasonable and cruel.
It might help the discussion to understand why women or girls, who have abortions late in pregnancy, wait so long. Thinking of people that I know personally, that had late abortions, both were teenagers, both were forced to conceal their pregnancies and one had to travel to the UK. One hid her pregnancy for months because she knew her parents would force her to have an abortion, and they did. The other hid her pregnancy because she'd been molested for years by a friend of her fathers, and she knew her parents would force her to keep it. Late abortion is horrific and many of the women and girls having them need more options and better information.
This has always been my problem with prolife's stance. I absolutely abhore abortion. I hate how it's viewed as a sign of women's rights as opposed to a medical necessary at best or a tragedy at worse. We don't have to dehumanize unborn children to give women a choice in healthcare. Now that my stance is known, here's why I don't consider myself prolife or like their approach. Prolife's approach is to legislate now and worry about the consequences later. That is a losing battle that ultimately harms more than it helps. If they really cared about ending abortion as much as they care about making noise, they would ditch the plan of trying to make abortion illegal and start focus on root causes. When we look at the profile of women who get abortions, most of them are NOT the psychopath women who say, "Ha, ha Christians. I'm getting abortion." Those women make such a small portion of those who get an abortion. Most are young, scared girls who literally do not know what to do. What if instead of using funds to picket and defund Planned Parenthood, we offer an alternative? One where we offer affordable counciling not just for the mother, but her whole family? What if this facility offered councilling for not just the young mother, but her whole family? What if it had councilers and social workers who are able to go on site with the young woman when she tells her parents and help mitigate through that initial anger? What if it helped connect victims of rape trauma with assistance or struggling families with resources? How much diffrent would this whole landscape be? You almost don't even need a law against abortion.
Elective late term abortion is a myth. Late term abortions are only preformed when there is a medical emergency that will endanger the mother’s life if she continues the pregnancy.
@@witchwoman5403 The cases I'm talking about are in the late 70s. I'm talking about girls travelling across national borders to get abortions (S. Ireland to mainland UK). For the girl whose parents made the decision, they had the financial resources to take her to Hong Kong, if her pregnancy had been over the upper limit for legal abortion in the UK.
@@TheRisky9 I'm not a Pro-Life supporter. I remember being part of a group, trying to raise funds for the University creche and approaching a couple of Pro-Lifers. Their response was that women with children shouldn't be at University! Religious people have too many agendas to make their arguments about abortion clearly. They are the last people I'd go to for a discussion about Ethics and Morals. Most of the reasons for abortion come down to practical problems like, money, housing & timing. There's also some unnecessary nonsense like shame that gets dumped on women (see religion 🤮). I agree. If our Society was more parent friendly, the majority of abortions wouldn't be necessary.
This was such a good discussion! It's so good to have men learn about abortion- something they've been told they're not allowed to have an opinion on. I wish there was time for the doctor to discuss the physical dangers of abortion for the mother that isn't often talk about.
Amazing conversation! Guys you must have Erika Bachiochi on, she makes the feminist case against abortion, not one often heard. That way you don't just have a for and an against conversation, but can get into some real nuance. She's a firecracker to talk to too.
Also check out New Wave Feminists and Rehumanize International. Both lead by progressive feminists against abortion and for loving and caring for women with crisis pregnancies and their children.
Appreciate the discussion but it really didn't address the reality of the impact for the rest of the life of the woman who carries and bears an unwanted child and keeps it. It's not about just an "inconvenience". The impact to her body, her finances & her ability to support herself and emotional toll. It's every day for a minimum of 18 years. And, in worse cases, possibly being forced to interact with an abusive man about the baby for years to come over visitation and support. There are laws in some US states that are quite horrifying in this regard with regard to a rapist's rights as a father etc. The original trauma is never over. Looking forward to another viewpoint next.
@@kathyalex778 going through pregnancy itself can traumatise women both mentally (especially if the man is abusive or it was a product of incest or rape, etc) and of course physically (the bodily changes) it's not just about the raising of the child after birth.
Why would he address the reality of the impact on the woman ? It's quite clear that this man does not see women as fully human. It's a philosophical exercise for him. The real life impacts it has on very real human beings is irrelevant, for him it's just theoretical and it allows him to make himself sound smart to other men.
@@ugh4387 lmfao. you poeple always make pregnancy seems more than it is.. nothing omre traumatising than killing your baby. All females of the animal species give birth. Get over it. And finances usually get taken cared of by the father. If women weren't so liberal with their sexuality, we wouldn't have this problem. Abortion is a bandaid that is ending a life to make you feel momentarily better, only to be depressed later on in life.
To me, the basic question is when you are willing to have the state force women to bear a child--- at what gestational age? To jail her? Force feed her? Forcibly medicate her? Subject her to surgical procedures?
I was unwanted and my mother made my childhood a living hell. Nonetheless I am extremely happy to be alive and I am glad beyond belief that she was unable to obtain the abortion she wanted.
I had an abortion when 18years old, I'm 56 now and I think about what kind of human I got rid off. I had my reasons but My heart is broken for the rest of my life.
Forgive yourself lovely woman I'm almost 56,had a child later in life For reasons I won't go into I had to seriously consider abortion but I came back from that brink and had the child with no regrets We all make choices that mean other paths are not walked You can still make peace with the 18 year old you that made that decision so long ago❤️
Might shock a few but I had a medical abortion at seven weeks. When I found out I was pregnant my mental health was in turmoil and all I wanted to do was chuck myself off of my balcony or run in front of a bus. The abortion process I found gory and traumatic, personally. But ultimately I am glad I did it. Because if I hadn't I know I wouldn't be here now. I admit there is a lack of support for women who are unsure if they want to proceed with a pregnancy or not. To be honest, unless you've been in that situation you cannot judge a women's decision to terminate a pregnancy. This is a safe space for all of us to share our views.
Agree with you 💯. Women I know who found themselves pregnant were so overwhelmed and scared, their stories were heartbreaking. One woman I met was told bc of a medical condition she wouldn't be able to get pregnant at all, so her doctor shirked birth control and said it would be a waste of time. A year later she found out otherwise and she was terrified. Who is accountable for that? There is always more at play here than people think. Separately, it is so annoying to see males discuss something they will never have to go through. Women can, and do, die from this - so when people say "Oh I care about human life..." you know that's an absolute lie. You don't care about her chance of death - and that risk should be her choice.
How many (fathers to be) went to Magdalene laundries🤔? Pretty sure many fathers did not stick around in an unwanted pregnancy pre abortion legalisation...especially if they were not married to the mother
A study done a few years ago found that almost 80% of women who had abortions were coerced by either their parents or by the father of the baby. I saw an article written a few months ago by a guy in his late 20's. It was about how great abortion is for men. It was so disgusting. His argument was he should be able to sleep around and not have to worry about raising a baby with a woman he doesnt want to marry. He literally said he has to think about his future wife and kids, and doesnt want a baby mama ruining that. Its pretty clear that abortion is being pushed on women by liberal men because they dont want to be responsible when it comes to sex.
Fantastic session with the lovely Dr Miller. What a genuine, caring articulate human. You asked all the questions I wanted to know. Thanks boys a dreadful subject handled with great sensitivity. It broke my heart to hear how little human beings are killed and dismembered. What possible excuse could there be for leaving it until 21 weeks to abort a baby! Its barbaric. The huge problem I agree with the good dr is that panic stricken girls and adults are not given the support they need at the time and after. Not all, but a lot of woman would probably choose to give birth, if not keep the baby , if they knew they had support. It's just heartbreaking. Thanks again, you just keep getting better 👍
I'm a 62 year old mom of 3 living children and 4 that died in utero (they were stillbirths, not elective abortions). I have long felt that my losses were a sort of generational curse stemming from my grandmother, who in the 1920s-1930s worked helping a dr who did abortions as a side job. I was raised Jewish but my prolife views have always been so strong that it led me to become a Catholic. They seemed to be the only religion with the balls to call abortion what it really is: premeditated murder of a child not yet born.
@@danielledavis8580No. It is a scientific fact that human life begins at conception, and a scientific fact that every elective abortion kills a human being.
He doesn't think how that feels to wait for the birth of a baby that will never live. How it feels like when people ask, "are you expecting a boy or a girl?" when they see a pregnant belly, when you know your baby will die shortly after birth. That woman has to keep it to herself just so that the person does not feel bad about asking such a question. The women who keep the pregnancy are already pro life and that does not count. Even though having an abortion in this situation is not a walk in the park, the thought of keeping being pregnant knowing that the baby will never live is more terrifying. He also has no knowledge of plan-b, but loves commenting about it. How strange. He is a doctor and should base his opinion on facts, not just feelings. Progesterone based plan-b does not stop an existing pregnancy. Women whose body does not produce enough progesterone use it to save pregnancies. He mentions three ways to abort a pregnancy. - medical, vacuum, dilation and evacuation, but there is also induced labor.
It doesnt matter how that feels. We all die eventually, does that then justify killing your baby because it will soon die? Do you not see the flaws in your reasoning? Some contraception do in fact kill a fertilised egg. Since it hasnt implanted yet, it technically isn't a pregnancy and hence not an abortion but there's no relevant difference here.
You might want to go and talk to those transhumans who "feel" like they are genders that they are not,but oh wait, even people use their feelings when it comes to FACT, how many times does still born happens?
I am from an unwanted pregnancy. It was a complicated situation in many ways. I am glad that my birth mother didn't abort me back in late 1973 or early 74 in the US. There was various types of abuse going on in the family even when my teenage mother was growing up. I even grew up with abuse in our home from various people in our family. I suppose, you could call me a fighter. Despite my background and the abuse I experience, I didn't let the stigma of being unwanted/illegitimate dictate my life. I went on to graduate from High School and university. I contribute to my community by caring for others in my community. Nursing and caring for others keeps me from looking at my background and dissolving into self pity. Yes, my life was difficult, no doubt. Children know when they are unwanted at home. They feel it. They bear the scars. I used to be pro-choice until one day I was working in a hospital as a technician in the OB/GYN department. I watched a pre-mature baby fight for over 12 to live. We were ordered not to feed the newborn. I realized that someone was making decisions for someone, who was truly fighting for their life. The decision was made by it's parents, but they were convinced to do this my Neo natal physicians an hour and half to two hours away from my hospital. They never laid eyes on the child. They didn't evaluate the child. They didn't know for sure that this child would have been severely disable mentally and physically. It was a heartbreaking situation. My heart still aches for the child and what potential she/he could have had and done in this world. People see children as an inconvenience and burden. They fail to see what they could be in this world. Any child can make a huge difference, not necessarily as a celebrity in large public ways. They could make small differences in small places over a long period of time. A lifetime. That is why there is always the choice to give a child up for adoption. You don't need to raise a child, you don't want to have.
Thank you for sharing this. Good on you for fighting. Good on you for keeping a soft heart even under a tough shell. My husband's childhood and most of his adult life have been absolute hell. But God has been restoring him. He probably just about saved my life (and I come from a stable, loving home). I know that he's made tremendous impact in the lives of others who were forgotten, on the sidelines of society, some people who were insufferable but they needed a friend, and just being loved and a couple good kicks in the butt helped them come out of whatever depression and darkness they were in when they first met him. This world would NOT be a better place without him. He would NOT be better off dead. Today, we're both grateful that he got a chance at life. When people use potential suffering, or even real suffering, to argue that death would have been better than any life at all, it just hurts me. Yes, it's a cruel world in many ways. To all of us, whether or not our parents wanted us. But we need the fighters. We need the overcomers. Every single shitty thing we've been through, as children or adults, can be a lesson to protect somebody else, can give them the tools to deal with the things on their plate, can be the strength the other person doesn't have right now but we can help them carry their load. Our suffering can be redeemed. There is hope. Life is worth living, and worth giving. I really pray that we as a society rediscover that. All the best to you
@24:00 When I was 10 years old my mother asked me to spend the weekend at a friend of her's home to help her out because she had only one half of an arm with a hand and her other hand basically came out from her shoulder. I didn't take long for me to realize that she didn't need my help at all, that my mother wanted me to see that in spite of her handicaps she was a very accomplished strong and independent career woman. God blessed my mother with great wisdom, and I never forgot that lesson.
Men should also take responsibility instead of all it landing on the woman. Vasectomies have less risks than birth control for women and it's reversible.
They were offered the pill but didn't take it. I can't watch this podcast it infuriates me. Men talking about this is a big fat no for me. I has an abortion I had no where to live etc. Yes its traumatic but it was the right thing to do. We are demonised women feel demonised for having an abortion while millions of children are neglected and abused but we are still called murdered because we did not want to bring an innocent person into a horrid world that doesn't look after abandoned children. People like these men make me so fucking angry.
The pill was offered to men in the 90s. They also don't give out free morning after pills. That would change things. Although women campaigners neans we can now use in some places morning after pills like birth control without having to give our sexual history. But it was hard to get a morning after pill 20 odd years ago. They also have a started to give the abortion pill for early pregnancy at home led by women and feminist groups. These changes are very recent.
Fine, articulate man. I don't share his position or his faith, but he's entitled to the kind of civil, searching opportunity to speak that he's been given here.
I respect this man's educated opinion, however, there are a lot of philosophical, historical, and biological aspects left out of his discussion that play a vital role in understanding abortion. Hope we hear from other guests who will touch on those facets and bring them to the discussion table.
Really? I disagree. If it’s a defenseless human, it’s murder, no? That’s the rub: is it human or not? Would you end a handicapped child? A very young child still dependent on her mother’s milk? An unwanted child? I’m guessing not. Pro-lifers just believe the child to be a child while still in the womb.
@@sueedwards9334 it IS a human. so? a human that is dependent on the body of a mother to survive does not have a right to be there unless the mother wants it to be.
I agree 100% with his position… it’s wonderful to see that even though you disagree you like to hear other points of view. This gives me hope for humanity 👍👍
@@grannyannie2948 I disagreed. IMO the criteria for personhood should be "being that emerges from or is inherently associated with the hardware/wetware required for self-awareness and reason" since that is the requirement for these concepts being used in the rational dialogue happening right now (particularly in what seems to be the process of refining moral intuitions into ethical systems or worldviews). Also given no inherent value in objective nature beyond what is assigned by some form of mind/subjectivity (formed by its respective objective substrate), you would need self-awareness to give yourself any form of moral value (or of any kind).
He weaseled out of many of the questions, like what legislation he would think was fair, but I'm glad there was a discussion. No matter what side we are on, it's something we need to talk about, and many thanks go to them for having him on. I always recommend the Tony Kaye doc "Lake of Fire" - it probably won't change your mind one way or another but it helped me understand both sides.
@@sebastiansirvas1530 The way I see it, if a twenty year old was in a car accident that resulted in a coma without self awareness, we would not see that as justification to rip them apart and kill them. Especially if medical science was sure the twenty year old would regain full self awareness in six to eight months. As I see it bodily autonomy, which is a subject over vaccine mandates as well, gives women the right to decide whether or not to engage in sexual activity or whether or not to use contraception. But bodily autonomy, does not give her the right to end a life, that in thirty weeks or so can live independently of her body.
Given the reoccurring themes of this show, it was surprising to see how there wasn't very much push back to the idea that the woman is actually better off when she doesn't have an abortion, so we'll just take away her right to do so. In many ways, this is similar to a vaccine mandate: "We think you're better off with a vaccine, so we're going to take away your right to chose it or not."
No - the 'better off' angle was part of there overall argument, and was addressed in response to the claim that women are better off if they have an abortion.
THIS!! Also, he kept referring to rape victims who were glad they made the choice to continue the pregnancy as some kind of proof that it’s actually beneficial to do so. I can’t imagine that holds if they didn’t have a choice at all though.
@@Andrea-gx4ri in the case of rape, be supported his claim with evidence. Also, you fail to address the argument that one doesn't punish a child for the actions of another. Further, abortion in cases of rape constitute a small fraction of abortions annually.
@@joelvonthrum8658 what evidence? He said Rape victims who CHOOSE to carry the pregnancy are frequently satisfied with their choice. What evidence was presented that rape victims forced to stay pregnant would not be further traumatized by having their body violated a second time?
@@Andrea-gx4ri implied in that point is that NOT all women are happy they had to go though with it, which is obviously true. However, the value of a life is NOT linked to who its parents are nor how it came about.
Yes, I find that strange as well. The morning after pill is widely available and inexpensive. This is a better option than abortion, however abortion should always be available.
@@someone2021 The "Doc" is a christian fundamentalist... you know the people who would rather millions die from AIDS rather than men put a condom on. Idiots, all of them.
@@atee876 thats a bit disingenuous and theres no need for the hostility for a differing opinion to yours. He may be religious, but he is also a Doctor and undoubtedly more well informed on this subject than you and i. I think he makes good arguments but i dont agree with everything he says. I also dont think contraceptives matter much in this conversation anyway, as the discussion is about the morality of killing a child, not preventing the conception in the first place.
@@atee876 Lots of Doctors are Christians and lots of Doctors who contributed to the profession throughout history held very strong Christian values. The basis of Chemistry is founded on a theory from a devout Quaker and the theory of immunology was founded by a Christian born of a reverend
Greetings from the USA. This interview with Calum Miller was respectable and well balanced, especially in light of the one-sided arguments we often hear in the stateside media. It's also timely, with the abortion issue recently being challenged in the Supreme Court. Well done!
I don't deny the immorality of aborting a baby that is mature enough to survive outside the womb. An Indian woman living in Ireland was denied an abortion after she was having a miscarriage in the 2nd trimester. Her water broke but the baby didn't come out. Miscarriage was deemed unavoidable, they would not abort the baby because it had a heartbeat, she had sepsis and died. Sheila Hodgers was denied cancer treatment because she was pregnant, she died 2 days after giving birth to her 3rd child. They asked for inducing labour and caesarean but they were told no as they said the baby wouldn't survive, then later they asked for abortion when her symptoms were unbearable. She gave birth to a premature baby girl, who died immediately. When you are putting these "emergency-only" policies in place, it makes things complicated and drags it out. They'll need to get permission and second opinions, probably deal with a lot of legal documents or they risk prosecution for carrying out an abortion unlawfully. I think it should be a last resort, but it needs to be available, because there are numerous justifiable reasons for abortion, as sad as it may be. Making it overly complex and difficult just heightens the risk to the mother and means the baby develops more, making the whole process more emotionally and physically painful for all involved.
You are barking up the wrong tree. It is a very leftist argument that is an outlier and used to distort the truth. Majority of women use abortion as a form of birth control. The radical left condone this murder of the yet to be born with, "ITS MY BODY..." It logically follows that they condone killing a cat, dog or a slave. After all, cats, dogs, slave (when there was slavery) were property. You could do anything with them. Kill them, sell them, seperate them from their partners, sell off the babies...Now that is outlawed as murder and animal cruelty. Yet, these women have no qualms about killing a human being. Pity the doctor who thinks this way.
We have a child through IVF, we found out after two weeks that we were having a boy. From the moment we realised that we were having a child he felt real and human. In fact he felt more real to us than any other human being in our lives.
So is it that you think because you're desperate to have a child, others should be forced to do so, or is it that you're so stupid you can't imagine that not everyone feels exactly the way you do about something?
Thanks for this discussion. As a prolifer I am so weary of prolifers being demonised and our stance purposefully misconstrued. I think E Whelan even said recently the pro life point of view was sexist (I’m a woman!). Refreshing to hear Calum respectfully spoked to and I’m sure he appreciated it also! I’ve seen a couple of shocking interviews where he was spoken to with complete vitriol, interrupted, spoken over (James Whale/ Emma Barnett spring to mind) yet he remains dignified and calm- he has the patience (and tolerance) of a saint!
Meh, people can have and express whatever opinion they want regardless of their gender. However if you’re suggesting a woman who has actually had an abortion or considered one then yeah I second that.
I get sick of seeing feminists screech about the "right" to kill babies. Fifty percent of foetuses are male, and every foetus has a biological father. There is absolutely no reason this should be an exclusively female issue, it is an issue of humanity.
I would like to see more than one. It would be nice to have a conversation with someone that felt it was a good choice for them. And someone who felt is was the wrong decision. Not just a pro abortion woman
It seems that people who want there to be no abortions talk about "supporting" the mother and child, but never say what that "support" actually means or what the cost would be to society. If there were programs in place that were going to take an unwanted child and place them directly in an adoptive family that would be a great solution. What would not be a great solution is orphanages where these children grow up without a family. The other consideration is that a focus on preventing unwanted pregnancy must be in place to stop the problem at the other end. Contraception at no cost to the young woman and readily accessible, that is an implantable device and removable when desired is one way to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. There is no perfect way to address the problem but laws against something have never ever ever been a good solution. It just criminalizes the vulnerable.
There are problems with placing older children but not babies, there are not enough babies in the west, that’s why some families go to other countries to adopt.
There are long waits for adopting with babys. It's like a 1 (baby) to 30 (adults wanting to adopt) ratio. It's kids in the foster care program that need homes. Those kids come with more trauma especially the older they get. I think if we added more to Psychology classes to focus on red flags in a relationship, how to have healthy boundaries. I think that could help. Most of the time It's easier to prevent things than it is to fix things after they break.
I would like to point out that the whole "well if we polled people about ....." is not an argument in an intellectual discussion. Just because an idea is in the minority or the majority does not indicate whether it is correct or not.
True. It is much easier to find objective facts about the natural universe than to find objective morality. Everyone has a point in which they morally justify killing or euthanizing. The discussion of abortion really is about the culture we have around sex, reproduction, and moral obligations toward vulnerable people, personal responsibility. A poll would show us where the culture is. Scientific facts cannot answer this debate. It entirely comes down to cultural values.
Abortions were legalized because too many women were dying in botched illegal abortions. Women count as humans too! We should, as a society, focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies, but abortion should never be illegal.
Ah so because grown adults are too foolish to close their legs or use contraceptives, we should make baby killing free and available to all. nice logic.
Compelling arguments but still ..no. I don’t think a woman with unwanted pregnancy gets any comfort about statistics, ”overwhelming majority of people think this is good” But I appreciate the calm, reasonable conversation here. Respect!
Just out of curiosity, could you explain what you mean when you say you find the arguments "compelling" but still say no? I'm just wondering whether you were willing to go along with the argument far enough to agree that it is indeed a human being involved. Because if yes, then I'm wondering - how do you justify killing (often, in a manner that would most definitely meet the legal definition of a cruel and unusual punishment) an innocent human being, for the sake of someone's comfort? I mean, ultimately, pregnancy is nine months. Yes, there is childbirth involved, which is not in the least bit enjoyable for the woman. After that, she can immediately give the child up for adoption - and a life is saved (I am of course making the assumption that you're willing to agree we are talking about a human life - if not, then could you explain why you believe otherwise?). What strikes me is this: certainly, for a woman who doesn't want to keep the child, the whole process is arduous, untimely, and frustrating, as it forces her to suspend at least some of her plans for the next year... but if we agree that the process involves killing a human being, then why do people insist that the woman's rights are best served by allowing her to commit this act? Surely, the case should be made instead for society to offer better support to such women? Particularly in the often-cited case of rape, it's simply elementary that the state, which failed to prevent the rape, and the rapist who perpetrated it, should be obligated to offer the woman substantial compensation. And in the case of simply ordinary unwanted pregnancies - is there a case to be made at all, to allow a woman to kill a human being for the sake of her own convenience? Shouldn't she be expected to take responsibility for her actions? Sure, we can talk about providing her some sort of assistance (e.g.: here in Poland, pregnant women always have access to free healthcare regardless of whether they are registered in the healthcare system - and this seems more than reasonable), and there are indeed many charities that help such people - but ultimately, I just don't see what the argument here is, to justify killing a human being. Assuming, again, that you agree we are talking about a human being. But if not - please explain why you think otherwise.
Unless you’ve been in the position of a woman who goes through an abortion, no one has any idea of how it feels for that woman. We don’t go skipping along to the clinic, like dolly daydream with rose tinted glasses on, thinking it doesn’t matter. Of course what is happening to the foetus matters and so do the lives of the women carrying those foetuses. Abortion is harrowing, it’s indefensible, it’s all of the awful things people say but some of us couldn’t see any other way forward. One walks into a place of medical sterility, everything feels and smells strange. Every fibre of ones being is screaming at you to get out of there and don’t look back. It’s where you know that when you come out, NOTHING will ever be the same again. Not EVER! Don’t judge women for doing what they believe to best for both themselves and the foetus. We still have to live with our choice FOREVER, does this man think that’s easy or what any of us wanted? If anyone does you’re insane. He needs to stop talking about this as if it’s nothing to do with the woman herself. It’s EVERYTHING to do with the woman. Keep judgements to yourselves. You’ve got no idea. Only the woman faced with this or going through this knows the truth of what’s going on inside their hearts and minds. Sometimes one regrets an act before they’ve even done it but sometimes in this cruel game of life, there is no other choice. This doctor honestly is not thinking about women at all. What kind world is he trying to create? He’s talking statistics statistics, all he does is recite figures, no clue about real life. He’s not qualified in life yet to be talking about this. Life isn’t a set of statistics, it’s hard, it’s complicated and sometimes brutal. He’s had his head in too many books.
What ok earth are you on about. He nor anyone else here is suggesting anything of the sort. Yes it is to do with the woman and child(most of all), as it is the father, as it is the wider society.... That you go full emotional lambast not addressing any of his actual points is typical. You're just deflecting through histrionics. Not interested.
Appreciate the conversation but I am quite sceptical when Dr Miller refers to "a study shows". I come from Poland, a country with one of the most restrictive abortion laws where abortion is only permitted in situations of risk to the life or health of a pregnant woman, or if a pregnancy results from rape. Thousands of women leave Poland to access abortion in other European countries, while others import medical abortion pills. Some women particularly those in difficult socioeconomic situations seek ways how to self-induce an abortion putting their own health at risk. Decisions, whether to have an abortion or keep a baby, are not taken lightly and my heart aches for those who face such difficult choices.
59:30 This fella somewhat misrepresents Peter Singer's views on abortion who says that there's no difference between a late term foetus and a neonate. This leads doc to conclude that all abortion, regardless of weeks of age, is wrong. That's not Peter's view as he talks about a sliding scale of sentience and capacity to suffer, where infanticide is not OK, but aborting a 1 week foetus is absolutely fine because of the minimal pain it would feel. "In Practical Ethics, Singer argues in favour of abortion rights on the grounds that fetuses are neither rational nor self-aware, and can therefore hold no preferences. As a result, he argues that the preference of a mother to have an abortion automatically takes precedence." Its moderately frustrating that he's read Peter Singer, but hasn't taken away the most important aspect of his work. It's not about arbitrary distinctions like "they're human", it's more about the capacity to suffer, the will to live and a sense of self. However this brings up uncomfortable questions about the way we treat animals, which I'd love to get the doc's opinion on.
I got to disagree with some stuff. You got to keep in mind women who have been traumatised by their abusers. I have had to read stories on women being raped by soldiers or people they never knew. Telling them to keep a child they don't want or never expected is to authoritarian. I do agree with that it has to be done within a number of weeks though because the life begins at conception argument is a weak one. Also if you make it illegal to have a baby does that mean you will stop them from doing the stuff that they usally do like smoke, drink or other bad stuff. You also got to look at studies of of mothers not bonding with there kids. It's easy to say IT might happen at 5 but that is only because they are less of a burden. We need to learn to teach mothers to give up their kids if they don't want them rather than forcing them to stay with them and hope for the best. To much sadness at work.
As a Christian, the only influence my faith has on my views in the matter is that it gives me a belief in the inherent value of human lives. Every bit of rationale after that is purely secular and scientific. That's how I know whether the fetus is human, how it develops, when it can feel pain, etc.
I'm a woman. My Mum was a nurse and assisted in abortions, as apart of her role in women's healthcare. She's pro-choice, but she raised two children who are both pro-lifers. Abortions are only safe for the woman, not for the unborn, which results in death. People always bring up rape., but why victimise an innocent unborn and a woman, why not give the rapist a long punishment.
For many, it’s a question of viability and whether the pregnancy was forced on the woman. Surviving rape or incest is hard enough. Being forced to carry a child they didn’t ask for is not something a government should have the ability to do to a woman. Also, even if you want a pregnancy, it changes your body FOREVER. I have two kids. Your body is never the same. There are lifelong consequences of pregnancy. A woman should have the right to refuse those changes.
@William Tell I’m in the US. Don’t know the statistics on reasons here, but I do know “have it and give it up” isn’t a great suggestion here. We have over 400K children in foster care hoping to be adopted currently and over 100K age out of the foster care system yearly. They live their whole lives in foster care, often really bad foster homes, and at 18 are turned out on their own with no support system. People aren’t lining up to adopt. Those who are have specifics as what kind of child they want. Primarily white and male. They don’t want a minority or they don’t want a child with disabilities or they don’t want a child that was born to a drug addicted mother, the reasons are endless and sad. Also, it is EXTREMELY expensive to adopt in the US because most adoption agencies are for-profit here. I’ve always argued if we want to reduce abortions, abstinence only sex ed needs to be abolished, birth control should be free or really cheap at the very least, males should be held equally responsible for preventing unwanted pregnancies, and adoptions should be made affordable. Preventing pregnancy in the first place needs to be the priority. That includes actually investigating and holding accountable rapists. Discussions about what constitutes consent need to be commonplace.
But when saying babies from "unwanted" pregnancies in the UK suffer very little setbacks (on average) compared to most "wanted" babies this is in a country that allows abortions. I imagine that would be very different in a country that didn't allow abortions. Imagine all the babies of crack addicts, with down syndrome or server disabilities or those that would have been born into unstable social-economic situations. Many of those "really unwanted" babies are aborted so you cant ask them. But if they were born do you think they would on average be happy to be alive or not? If they were born I think would be a different story on "unwanted" babies not suffering compared to "wanted" babies. There is also a wider impact on society. There was a 2001 study that was referenced in the 2005 book Freakonomics, in the study they found that legalized abortion appeared to account for up to half of the drop in rates of violent crime and property crime to that point. They also predicted crime would fall an additional 20% over the next two decades. I guess the "Utopian" ideal is that we as a society shouldn't have any poor people and babies born into poor situations or with disabilities etc. We should have support in society for the mothers and families so that all babies would be valued and wanted. but we dont. and we won't, we have to be realistic with the world we live in, and the world tends to need abortions as the lesser of unsatisfactory outcomes.
Yes, until women are fully supported by their communities, abortions will continue because abortion is a survival/ economic issue and has been throughout all of human history. I know I would rather kill a baby than give birth to it and be forced to give it up for adoption because I am too poor or mentally unstable to take care of it. Abortion saves lives, it always has, and it always will. The life of an unwanted child is not a blessing.
Huge respect to you guys for having this conversation. If I approach this subject objectively I tend to lean slightly more to pro life. However, my best friend had an abortion when she was young and with a waste of space guy. She never really wanted kids after that. Then 12 years later she got pregnant accidentally after only being with a guy for a month and was going through a horrendous time personally and decided to have an abortion again and was told it was unlikely she'd be able to conceive ever again. A year later she was still with her bf and in a much better place. She got pregnant for a third time and had twins. She is now the happiest she's ever been with her little boy and girl. Now if she hadn't had those two abortions then these two little amazing human beings wouldn't exist. They are alive and exist because abortion is legal. I think now my opinion is that I can't just see either side simply as right or wrong. I think perhaps we should try and find ways to reduce unwanted pregnancies in the first place. We should try as much as possible to provide alternative options in cases of unwanted pregnancies like adoption etc. I think it's awful that men are told they don't even have the right to have an opinion and I also dislike the slogan " my body my choice " in this context because in most cases I've been able to observe where a woman is arguing this she is saying it's her body and no man is going to tell her what she can or can't do with it. This to me is the least meaningful argument supporting pro choice because the actual human foetus seems to hold little value.
He makes a wonderful argument that by the way many people make. As a post abortive woman who deeply regrets my abortion, I'm so thankful for people who will speak on this injustice.
You have all your DNA the moment of conception. Your eye color, your hair color, your build, your susceptibility to certain disease or addiction. You are human from the moment of conception, two humans cannot create anything other than a human. All humans go through the “cell”, “growth” process. The process of where you are in human growth does not make you less human. Being unwanted is not a reason to kill.
Never figured you guys would have such a fluff piece on your podcast. But seriously that story about the twins c=section really sat me back. Keep up the great work.
That argument made no sense though. Late term abortions are incredibly rare, but he didn't mention that did he? It was a red herring meant to pull at heart-strings and nothing more. This guy had zero real world data to back up any of his arguments and should be taken with a boulder of salt. I'm pretty sure they could have found someone better to represent this side of the debate.
@@SPCEMN3 they love to sweep away rape pregnancies as incredibly rare but then act like every abortion is at 39 weeks when 95% are first trimester. It’s so dishonest.
For the "life at conception" argument, a thought: babies can and do survive outside the womb at age 0. It's called fertility treatment procedures: they are outside the womb when the egg is fertilized (depending on method used). I'm pretty sure the parents (surrogate and biological) consider that clump of cells their baby. So maybe that whole argument is just a strawman on both fronts, and we need another term to describe the period of time in between conception and viability outside the womb, which seems to be what all the kerfluffle is about when it comes to biology argument.
I think the word you are looking for is implantation. A fertilized egg in a mammal can not survive without this step. In some textbooks the line between viablity and not is embroy vs. fetus although that old way of describing things has gone out of favor with embroys being only a short phase in more recent literature.
This is completely absurd. By your logic if in vitro fertilization occurs using a sample of sperm and eggs that have been frozen in a bank for 17 years, the "baby" ought to be considered an adult by the time it's born. "Oh but there's no inherent moral value to gametes until AFTER fertilization occurs BECAUSE REASONS!!!!" Well then, the same argument applies for embryos that have been preserved for sake of later implantation. GTFO with that nonsense.
If fetuses survive outside the womb then how about taking them out of the mother's womb instead of aborting and placing them in medical care while they mature for adoption?
I was a lifelong supporter of a women's right to choose whether to continue a pregnancy for whatever reason, certainly up until a few years ago. What began to change my mind was the reasons (money, livelihood, shame, fear) we women choose to end an unwanted pregnancy. It is extremely unfair that women are socially stigmatised and face a future of poverty for both having an illegitimate child out of marriage (recent history) as well as aborting an unwanted pregnancy. We cannot win. Additionally, the fathers are let off the hook to live their lives without consequence and that is also unfair. What is the answer? When I changed my mind about a woman's "right to choose" I had to reconcile my previous beliefs. The fact is, the baby has a RIGHT TO LIFE once conceived ( and I do not state this for religious reasons)). This means that the pregnancy must continue and the mother has the option to give this human the right to be adopted by another family. Yes, I know it may be traumatic and upsetting for the mother to continue the pregnancy, but I think that it is the only solution. Nine months of inconvenience is worth saving a life, I think. I have had two children, now grown up, and was extremely careful with contraception before starting my family. I feared an unwanted pregnancy above all. That choice I did not want to make.
This type of thinking raises other questions then. When does citizenship begin? When do child support payments begin? If a pregnant woman commits a crime and is sent to prison, should she be let go because her fetus is an unlawfully imprisoned person? Can a pregnant woman drive in the carpool lane?
Agree except for the many pro-lifers who don’t even agree if continuing the pregnancy is harmful to the mother. A woman should not be expected to forfeit her life when she becomes pregnant.
@Liz I completely agree! The principle that the prolife point of view follows that a human being should have to forfeit their body so another human may live is wrong in my opinion. Whether the child/cells is a human (I would still say that's a philosophical view point) if it needs another human to survive, it has no right to demand those resources of another human being if every humam beings worth is truly sacred. Apologies if this is badly phrased, it's only a UA-cam comment.
What can be the "other position?" The intentional destruction of an innocent human being has no intellectual footing. The bravery to convey this message in this culture is life changing/life saving.
I thought this was a wonderful interview and was surprised to hear that someone wanted a discussion on this topic. For once pro life could explain in every detail why we have this stance. Thanks to you two and Dt Miller.
Great conversation! This doctors demeanor is so calming. His stats on certain things regarding this abortion debate was eye opening. Kudos for having this conversation guys! 👍🏻👏
What a gracious Christian gentleman Dr Miller is, full of empathy, sympathy and understanding - and so, so compassionate. And he loves the unborn - my hero, but God richly bless him.
I don't agree with his stance but i enjoyed hearing his well articulated point of view, great discussion as always guys. I would suggest as a 'countering' guest: Someone with knowledge of how rotten private adoption agencies in the US can be and the argument against adoption as an alternative to abortion.
The rottenness of the adoption agencies isn’t really a valid argument for abortion though. It’s an argument to fix the adoption system, or put it back in the hands of individuals or religious organizations. Any time there is a centralization of power there is nearly inevitably a corruption that emerges.
I think it would immediately lead to “Are you saying it’s better to be dead than risk possibly having bad parents?” Infants aren’t languishing in orphanages, it’s the older kids who struggle. The only risk for infants given up at birth is the adoptive parents will be abusive, which children also risk with their biological parents. At least parents through private adoption are by necessity determined, law-abiding, and financially stable; they wait years, go through background checks and home studies, and spend $8,000-$45,000 in various fees.
The guy never really presented a convincing argument for his idea that terminating the existence of a fertilized egg is the same as terminating it at 24 or more weeks. He just drew a really meaningless line of being inside vs being outside and this really says nothing and no policy is made based on this absurd division.
I hate when people say men can’t have an opinion on abortion. It makes about as much sense as saying northerners couldn’t have an opinion on slavery because it didn’t directly affect them. When deciding whether or not someone is a human, only your humanity matters, not your gender.
Well there is having an opinion and then there is what you do with that opinion and how far you are willing to take it. People get worried you will take their rights from them, hence why we are all so defensive.
Thank you for having this most important conversation that all people should be having, including men. Killing another human is disturbing and horrifying. And is shocking to me that society accepts it. He is absolutely correct. Abortion hurts children and women. When it hurts an individual, it hurts society. Please open your minds and see how horrifying this is.
Abortion should be a woman’s choice. Everyone understands that embryos aren’t people and this is just a ploy to increase population sizes ala China and Russia.
@@Andrea-gx4ri birth control is a persons choice not an abortion. Where's your responsibility? No one magically makes anyone have a baby, you have to take the decision the have sex first. Birth control and self control both negate the need for an abortion. Smh.
@@Madonnalitta1 birth control fail and rapists exist, and mostly go unpunished. Even wanted pregnancies can go terribly wrong. Women should never lose the right to decide which medical risks they are comfortable undergoing. Women are people now.
I changed my mind about abortions during minute 12. Was nearly in tears.... with a 5 month old at home... it was heart wrenching to hear about the procedure. Thank you. I never imagined it to be like that.
I didn't realise that there were so many late term abortions in the UK alone. I naively thought they happened rarely due to severe medical complications. It's horrifying that it's so common.
But the bit I don't understand is how that extends to denying women who do want abortions. It makes you sad and that may make you pro life but why does everyone else need to be? That doesn't make you pro life, it makes you forced birth. What about the 13 year old rape victim? If I am nearly in tears about her does that mean abortion is justified?
@@sarahbyer8014 Thats why i said the term should be reduced rather than - no abortion. Unlike that doctor I'm with Konstantin.. at what point does an egg and sperm become a person? And it's also why i admit.. i don't know what the term should be reduced to. To me... aborting an egg/sperm is totally different to aborting a 24 week pregnancy. What that guy did was make me think about it - which is something i've never done and whereas before, abortion at 24 weeks would have been ok with me... now i can say i don't think it should be done- especially if a baby could survive that. On the other hand... something 5-7 weeks maybe (i don't know) e.g. baby from a 13 year old rape victim would be a completely different story. Not black and white... i'm not against it in principle.. i think terms should be moved. One woman from th NCT group gave birth 11 weeks early... it was insanely early. Little girl is fine and happy. Just 1 week before that.. technically the mother could have decided to have it aborted. I reconcile it in my head but never thought about it until i heard this guy talking.
@@householdone7559 but what if the 12 year old rape victim does not realise she is pregnant until 20 weeks or does not go for help until then and I am nearly in tears and it is heart wrenching to hear about her fear and pain, the fact her immature pelvis may not be able to cope with birth or her horror at birthing her abuser’s baby? If this is based on my feelings and reaction to that story then she gets her late term abortion, yes?
Now you need to have an interview about veganism!!! Feeling compassionate about human babies is exactly the same thing as feeling compassionate about animal babies. They are both equally innocent and vulnerable. They need (and deserve) our help and empathy.
I’m 50 minutes into this and I haven’t heard the discussion of sexual behavior. I’m part of a huge extended family. We believe in marriage first and sex and children after. We would never condemn anyone who failed in this belief ( and a few have) but as a whole we are blessed with happy (not easy) families and financially stable ones.
96% of women saying they glad they kept the baby could very easily be inflated by the effect where almost no moral person wants to be caught saying "I regret having this child" that you have to care for. The other problem is you could probably use a similar statistic to justify something like forced impregnation.
My mom lost a baby and 20 years later says how glad she is she didn't have it. I think a lot of women feel this way and will never say it or even admit it to themselves. My mom was DEEPLY shamed by her evangelical community for losing the baby because she had confided in a "friend" that she didn't want it at the time. Of course many women resent their children. We are told by society we have to have children to have worth, and then we have them and realize we gave up our actual dreams to do so. The women who most fight me on this are the ones with the most unconscious resentment. All "I LOVE MY CHILD HOW DARE YOU MOTHERHOOD IS THE BEST THING THAT COULD EVER HAPPEN TO A WOMAN" but they're MISERABLE and talk about drinking wine all day to cope with motherhood.
@@queengoblin I did have an abortion and I felt a lot of guilt and sadness at the time and also some regret after a while. It had an impact on my relationship with my partner as well. I do NOT wish it on anyone but I stand by my decision and it would have been awful to not be able to get an abortion! I am so proud of living in a country where I could get the procedure done for free.
@@monikagolab8892 exactly! Thanks for this. He studiously ignored the argument that this is not about whether it is good for women (and the teeth itching paternalistic way in which he believes that he "knows" this from his selective interviews and studies) but whether they have a right not to be forced to gestate and birth a foetus they do not want. I cannot believe he would be so sanguine about all this if he were ever going to be in this position- women still die in childbirth; there is no situation where a man can be forced to participate in something that might kill them.
I've avoided getting pregnant and past child bearing age now, but the idea of being forced to carry and bear a child I find horrific. I certainly took great care not to get pregnant but nothing is 100%. I remember seeing an interview with Angela Rayner whose first day as a nurse included laying out the body of young woman who had died as a result of a back street abortion. You ban abortion and women will still try to abort a baby.
Not to mention that carrying a child in and of itself is not without serious risks and it takes a tremendous toll on a woman's body even if everything goes smoothly.
Nothing is 100% effective? LOL! I would think that keeping your legs together is more than enough to not get pregnant. If you wanna have fun then know you are risking yourself to being forced to carry a child for 9 months and killing a baby should not be an option just as a mother with post partum depression should not have a right to kill her newborn just because she finds it convenient.
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Dont be apart of the death culture
massive respect to you guys for hosting this. Most podcasts that talk about culture wars, controversies, IDW-type stuff etc. shy away from this like the plague (or only talk for the pro-choice side since that's more popular among their in-group).
It is a very good debate but I have always found it disingenuous when men talk about abortion. Even if the men are sensitive, well educated and erudite the issue of authenticity remains. Women tend to bear the brunt of child-bearing and child rearing. Men are still not as actively involved in looking after children. Absent fathers are even less involved..! He is absolutely bang on the money about abortion facilitating male irresponsibility. Men used to have to 'step up' but now they can disappear more readily... Dr Miller is correct to say that the focus should be on sanctity of life rather than population control. Sadly, the rise in liberalism associated with free love and casual intercourse has lead to a more fractured society with more fatherless children. However, it is naive and childish to deduce causation from correlation. 🤔 Did legal abortions cause single-parent families or was it a change in attitude towards marriage OR available support from social security payments?! Like many, I hate the notion of abortion and abhor the rampant sexualisation of modern society. There is more often very little excuse for all these "unwanted" pregnancies. Termination of viable infants is utterly barbaric! It is shocking that any procedure beyond 20 weeks is legally sanctioned 😞 It is a symptom of a sick culture that decides to treat humans as just another commodity. However, bad abortions have been going on for centuries. 'Clean', safer abortion has assisted improvements in underprivileged women's health over the last 60 years. Statistically, only a minority of women truly 'regret' their abortion. The noisy voices of those who express extreme sorrow almost always drown out the silent majority who just carry on with their lives. That is rarely debated or discussed openly. The statistics quoted here and elsewhere are skewed by selection bias, survival bias and volunteer bias. Huge reductions in child bearing have liberated women across the World. Huge reductions in childbirth have enabled women to be educated. Of course, the vast majority of this has been due to public health measures, widespread contraception and better health education. However, abortions have also contributed to the reduction in childbirth everywhere. There will be the ongoing mistreatment, abuse and rape of women resulting in genuinely 'unwanted' pregnancies. Women will seek to end those pregnancies so there needs to be a way of controlling and regulating these terminations. The World is overpopulated and from a utilitarian point of view less mouths to feed is not a bad thing however sick it makes us feel.
It is ironic that Russia & China which used to promote infanticide have reversed their decades old policies due to the threat of their demographic collapse.
Well done guys. Good episode 👍🏾
@@KloppMichaelBarnes You sound brain washed by feminists. There's nothing disingenuous about respecting a father has an equal part in creating a child. If, like me, you reach middle age after watching your partners dismiss your interest in raising a child to continue your family name so they can spend their lives thinking about nothing but their careers and impressing people by being a powerful woman, you'll understand. Only an idiot dismisses a man's interest in having a child, those idiots are generally feminists, the clue is in the title - they're only thinking of themselves. Sorry to be so blunt but you need to wake up and stop bending over for women who wouldn't bear you a thought, you're only doing that because it gets their approval - trouble is, the approval of those women gets you precisely nothing.
This sounds like a feelings over facts interview
When the doctor says that what we all have in common is being human, I understand where he's coming from. As a Healthcare worker, I've seen patients with brain damage or dementia who barely are aware of your existence, and I've seen people be rough with or ignore their basic dignity with the excuse of " they don't even realize...they can't even tell we are talking about them...they won't notice they aren't clothed..etc. I try not to react too emotionally but I sit down and explain to them that these people have lived for 80 years. They've had great loves, they've lost those loves, and they've Seen things that worker never will. And they are entitled to your respect whether they can tell you that or not.
The only issue there is that we still haven't defined what being human is. Which is really the crux of this debate. Although I will say that once you possess whatever it is that makes you human, you can never lose it.
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Beautifully put.
@@spracketskooch I don't think you'll find that answer anytime soon. But we certainly can discuss limits on the current state of the laws, and how to promote birth and adoption. Financial barriers are what i see as a main issue in most women. Hard to work with a newborn, and welfare help is pretty pathetic.
@@spracketskooch well to be fair, the term "human being" has been defined conclusively in science, which is why even leading pro-abortion advocates like Singer, Boonin, Sumner, Jeff McMahan, John Harris, Alberto Giubilini, Kate Greasley, etc. agree that the unborn are human beings. The problem is that most people use the term "human being" in the philosophical sense rather than the biological, which is actually fine because human rights, personhood, moral status, etc. are philosophical concepts and considerations. Also, most leading pro-abortion advocates and defenders of abortion themselves can't seem to agree on what a person or a human being is. I think that fact alone counts against their position. If they can't say for certain when human rights/moral status begins, i don't think they're in a position to judge when abortion is justified. if you don't know for certain, you should err on the side of caution, since violating the right to life is a serious matter.
@@spracketskooch this really doesn't matter. The foetus will be a human being. A person in a coma is less a human then a foetus, but we try our hardest to bring that person back, because they have the privilege of people knowing who they are/were and relationships that have impacted people. A baby has not had that chance, the only person they can rely on for care, love and speak for them is the mother. They can't appeal to anyone else for their right to their life and the opportunity to fulfill their potential and to give back the love the mother gave them. It's so unjust not to give them a chance.
My birth mom found out too late that she was pregnant with me back in the 80s in South Korea and could not get an abortion. She carried me to 9 mos. And she then put me up for adoption. I feel so blessed by the family God placed me in. Thank you for having this conversation!
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Thank you too. Im in South Korea right now, there are very poor adoption rates in 2022, children are still shipped overseas, abortion was still illegal until 2021. Nothing changed since the 80s. Many Korean adoptees are unhappy and want to go back to Korea, its nice to see a happy ending.
@@sarahharris2729 unhappy is probably better than dead, eh?
I am deeply moved by your story. Thank you for sharing it!
Wow! Powerful! Thank you for sharing. ❤️
My moms car broke down on the way to abort me. She continued to do drugs while pregnant I’m assuming in hopes that I would die. The will to live is strong though ! She gave birth to me, and gave me up for adoption. I was 4lbs, had withdrawal symptoms for several weeks according to my aunt whom adopted me. I had a very rocky start in life, struggled with drug, and alcohol abuse myself. I’m now 31, and feel very thankful for my struggles. It gave me character, and I’m happy to be alive. When I became pregnant there was a bit of panic, and my mom admitted to me she had an abortion after having me that she regrets to this day. My son is 2 1/2, and we are so happy arrived when he did despite our financial struggles. When I heard his heartbeat for the first time on that sonogram machine I cried. It changed my views on abortion. How could the thought even run through my mind. Now I think about life so differently thanks to him. He was so special to me even before he was in my hands. That’s my 2 cents about asking someone who was an unwanted child 🙋🏽♀️ God had bigger plans for me !
God bless your child!😊
Bless 🙌
Did anyone warn you that you would be very susceptible to drug and alcohol abuse because of your exposure in utero?
Beautiful 🌹
i hope u sued your mom
for endangering your life with drugs & alcohol
I am a mother whose first pregnancy was unwanted. Twins. An abusive relationship and eventually a single mom. We were dirt poor for years and it was a real struggle.
I am so grateful I chose to keep them. Everything good in my life now has grown from my choice to keep my children.
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That's beautiful, I believe when we make the right decision, no matter how hard it is at the time, it blesses us later on. Kudos to you! Delighted for you!
And when your life has turned out the way it had if you had had an abortion you would likely be thinking "thankfully I was never burdened with the unwanted child."
Hindsight is a terrible way of justifying behaviour because it is, by definition, a self-fulfilling sequence of events.
Bless you, Leanne.
Well no one admits that they regret having children, but lots of people do!
A brilliant interview, which I bet most other podcasts and/or news outlets would be too "uncomfortable" to host. It's given me quite a bit of food for thought. Massive props to Triggernometry for having Calum on.
Seconded.
Yes, I agree with you. What an interesting discussion - Calum is very measured.
Philosophically, you'll be well prepared when you become unexpectedly pregnant! Alternatively, I'm sure you would agree that we should hold biological father EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE for 18 YEARS of the money AND the time required to raise a child!
@@wessexmomYes, we should expect the father to step up. Some say the women's liberation movement has just liberated men. Abortion allows them to walk away and go on to be irresponsible again.
I suffered from years of trauma and depression after having an abortion which I wasn’t expecting. The only thing that set me free was acknowledging the truth about what I’d done regardless of what I was told that my baby was merely “a clump of cells”. I’m walking with Jesus now and am still healing to this day.
Thank God for this man and his bravery for speaking on behalf of truth. I live in LA and know I wouldn’t get past two sentences with most people in this city about this topic. Keep on the good fight especially for those who are in silent suffering.
Also Planned Parenthood in particular went on trial in 2020 and were found guilty of selling baby body parts from abortions and needed to make a QUOTA.
If I could go back I’d have abstained from sex until I was either married and or ready for the consequences.
God bless you all and thank you for this interview
God bless you.
Brave courageous and informative podcast. This is why MSM is a failing enterprise. Well done guys, ,🙏💜💪 Northern Ireland
💣💣💣💣💣💣💣💣💣💣
Why brave?
@@athelstan927 because if you're opinion is wrong on this you'll be in trouble in Ireland.
I have an adopted son and I am so grateful his parents gave him up. He is a gift to this world. 6'4" piece of love. My biological son and choosen sons are equally loved.
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Tall timber. Lovely comment. Thank you.
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So? I know many people irreparably damaged by childhood trauma and neglect that's driven them to drugs and homelessness. Even with abortion being legal, there are hundreds of thousands of kids who slip through the cracks. Get ready for a whole lot more!!
As someone who, in his early 20s, encouraged his girlfreind to have an abortion because it wasnt the right time, id have many more opportunities to have kids, and hey, what the hell, its just a bunch of cells anyway - thats what they always told me. No big deal.
Well, now im in my 40s and that second chance never came, and now im sooo much more aware of this incredible world and this incredible gift of life we all get.
I only wish that back then my freinds and my community hadnt been so cavalier to train my mind to think nothing of abortion, that it was just a $600 outpatient procedure and that would be the end of it. I had no idea what i was doing -
I was barely any more conscious than the baby, my own kid, that i had snuffed out.
I dont know the right answers on this issue, but i sure wish all the wieght and consequenses of what i was ACTUALLY doing was layed out a little more evenly. My whole life would have been different.
So basically you're saying your girlfriend should not have had access to an abortion, ie been forced to bear a pregnancy she did not want because you're sad that no woman ever wanted to have children with you ? I mean, you do realize that we are human beings with wants and fears and desires and not merely bodies to incubate your babies because you want some ?
And HAHAH "your own kid". You never had a kid. You had an embryo that depended on a full grown human being to itself become a human being. And guess what ? That woman didn't have to produce that kid for you.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. It is tragic but it is very important for the conversation. God bless you sir.
@@murderoustendencies she wanted the baby.
Also,
You seem to be so obssessed with your ideology, that it instantly turns into rage when threatened by anything. Nothing i said above, is deserving of your pre-canned rebuttle. The arguments dont counter-match. I was just explaining a personal account of the consequenses of abortion and how i thought it would be helpful for younger people to have a more well rounded view of the big picuture. If you want to argue, its good to start by understanding your opponents point, maybe even assume good faith. For example, If i wanted to say something snarky to counter what you actually just said...i might say: its NOT your body, thats the point. But, I also know these are complicated problems.
Also, your kind of a jerk. Please have all the abortions you want.
Everything in your first paragraph applies to me. Apart from maybe the incredible world bit, but hey, you're entitled to your opinion...
I just wanted to say, firstly, there's nothing to be gained from worrying about what might have been - ever. All you're doing is making yourself unhappy unnecessarily, and trust me, I am an expert on that subject.
Secondly, we often look back on our younger selves and see ourselves as fools, but the truth is it's hindsight that makes us look foolish. I'm sure you did what you thought was the right thing at the time, and if you had your time again, _without the benefit of hindsight,_ you'd make the same choices. So, how can you say you did the wrong thing if you had no way of knowing what you needed to know to do "the right thing" (ie how you would feel about it when you're 40)?
Thirdly, have you considered how your life would have panned out in this alternative scenario? Are you still with this girl? How are custody rights in your part of the world? The biggest problem with "what might have been" thinking is "what might have been" is almost invariably an unrealistic fantasy. It's an incredible world, right? So, live in it, not in a fantasy.
I’m a women and also come from a liberal and secular upbringing. After reading from secular philosophers on the issue I also changed my mind. It is a really complex topic. You need to really think deeply about what you consider a person and their rights.
Black Lives Matter. That's a good thing. But it's taken us a long time to figure out Baby Lives Matter.
I've never wanted a child, but there would be no chance of sterilisation on the NHS nor could I afford it privately. Fortunately I never got pregnant but the idea of being forced to carry and bear a child I find horrific.
@@hilarygibson3150 There are contraceptives, they are affordable and even several institutions offer them for free. I think the killing can be prevented just with caution. Forced is a strong word. Most cases are not because of forced actions. Marginal cases should not díctate general solutions. Every action has a consequence. If I drive drunk, there is a higher probability that I cause the death of someone. I can prevent it from driving while drinking. If I’m adult enough of having an active sexual life I should also consider the repercussions and act accordingly to prevent undesired outcomes.
@@hilarygibson3150 You would not be "forced" to bear the child if you had freely chosen to risk creating the child - the result would have been entirely your responsibility. You would have "forced" it on yourself.
Who cares about "rights" this isn't a "rights" issue. The world can't even agree what any specific right is, or where it comes from and what it's limitations are.
We know what love is, we know what life is, we know what a baby is and how precious that particular life is. If someone wants to terminate a healthy pregnancy instead of protecting and nourishing that life inside them, that act is quite simply evil.
It is so sad that many young women have been so corrupted by evil ideas that they argue in favour of killing their children.
It's part of how much society does not help each other in their communities anymore, and so many women find themselves or at least perceive themselves as alone and dealing with consequences and responsibilities they aren't ready for without the support they should have.
It’s such a difficult topic to discuss because it’s so emotionally and ethically charged. As a person who had an abortion years ago, I cannot judge a decision I haven’t made myself. It was misrepresented to me. I thought that it would bring things back to how life was before, it was not. The process itself was the worst experience I’ve ever had in my life. And to date, I strongly believe it was the worst thing I have ever done. I am sure that others may not have felt the same. But it compels me to explain more about what actually happens during an abortion. What stage the baby is at when it is done, potentially looking at options. With the right support perhaps the mum may make a different choice. The worst thing possible would be to involve the law. It would be divisive and cruel to both mum and baby and defeats the point. Unbiased information and support is what mothers need.
We definitely need more support and education. But isn't about every related law about the doctor?
I don't know what to think about punishing mom's. They definitely should, in some cases, where their abortion methods include giving birth and throwing them in dumpsters.
While I am sorry you went through that, I always treat anecdotes with a massive pinch of salt when applied to issues such as this. After all, it'd be easy to find women who've had abortions and are glad they did. If we say Woman A is happy she had an abortion and Woman B isn't happy she had an abortion it brings us no further forward. Ultimately it has to be the woman's choice and I fear when women only hear one side of the story they may be swayed into making a decision they wouldn't have otherwise made. That applies to *both* sides of the debate.
Mom and baby? You do know that you didn't insert that baby in your womb right?
@@Paul2377 why are you sorry she went through that? She chose to do that, you should feel sorry for the baby,not THIS human being.
@@purplelove3666 Because it was clearly a tough decision.
Your interviews are very successful because you thoughtfully listen and then thoughtfully ask your question (s). This is a rare art today. Thank you very much.
What an interview! I honestly didn't expect 3 men talking about abortion, to be so profound!
I got pregnant at 16 and thought, if I was mature/responsible enough to get pregnant, then I was mature/responsible enough to face the consequences. I didn't even consider abortion because the minute I found out I was pregnant, was the minute I realised I was growing my baby.
His Dad was an alcoholic, so I thought about raising my baby alone but gave him the opportunity to change when he was born. He didn't and he because abusive, so we split when my son was 18 months old.
I was supported by government/benefits to get through college and raise my son. I went to social services and they helped me with furniture. There is and was always support out there. My son is nearly 27 now and I do not regret one second!
The descriptions of what abortion entails, was horrifying! I must admit, even as a woman (who would never chose an abortion for myself but believe in choice) just cements my view that the age limit needs to be massively reduced! My Bestie was born at 23wks! Has 2 children of her own!
I agree with Konstantin, that the cells being terminated, is much different to later abortion. It certainly shouldn't be allowed to full term! Regardless of any issues! You know by your 2nd scan at latest.
Although I also agree that life starts when the cells merge. So it makes it a very difficult situation to get your head around!
Really thought provoking conversation! Well done guys!
Love this, good job. I'm so amazed at what women are able to accomplish dispite the obstacles in their lives. So young, too!
@William Tell A very good point! I certainly didn't mean that men shouldn't be part of the conversation, more that I didn't expect the conversation to make me think as deeply about abortion, as it did.
I wholeheartedly agree with what your saying. Women don't get pregnant by themselves and it should be a 2 way conversation, that I think often gets overlooked (fathers rights).
My firstborn sons dad was alcoholic (I say was as he passed away in 2016 at age 44) but he missed his only child's birth to get alcohol and although I did encourage the contact (when safe) he wasn't a great influence. My husband and father of my other 2 sons (married 19 years) would definitely be part of the conversation and is a great father.
So I definitely think it depends on the circumstances, as to how involved the fathers are but I agree that abortion affects the dads just as much as it does for the mums.
There is NOT always support available. You were lucky. Don't think that your experience is the only one available.
@@jak4bud I don't think my experience is the only one, I just shared my experience. I had to fight for that support and wasn't given a council house but was offered a housing association house and had to fight for benefits, as a pregnant 16 yr old. I didn't say it was easy but you do get support with housing and finances, if you fight for it in England. At least - that's my experience.
Is the fact that you did not expect men to be able to have a thoughtful conversation about abortion meant to be a reflection on men or of yourself? I’ve come across this self-absorbed attitude amongst women before, and especially amongst ‘feminist’ women. Get over it: it’s a stupid unsupportable position.
Great conversation. No insults, no accusations, just an interesting conversation about a delicate topic.
My mom didn’t go to someone to abort me but she tried hard to have me not survive. I was her 3rd baby by a 3rd man and she was single. (My parents married when I was 3 and stayed married for 30yrs until she passed)
Anyways, we were best friends. That woman was so strong (flaws and all) and I’ll love her forever.
❤️
Clearly you were meant to be!
Glad you made it out, chief!
Thank you for being brave enough to have him on. I respect you both 100 times more than I already did.
These kinds of conversations are what distinguishes Trig. There are so many other social and ethical issues not well addressed - vivisection, serious mental ill-health, sharia law, the ethics of foreign policy, and on.
'If I saw a foetus floating down the street, I wouldn't be like that's Gary'.
One of the best one liners I have ever heard. Well done KK 🤣🤣🤣
FF was quite visibly shaken when the doc described the types of abortion. I was pro-choice in my 20s but gradually changed my position - understanding abortion procedure better and being honest about what is really growing inside of a woman's body (not a "clump of cells") did that. And, of course, becoming a mother. When you hear your baby's heartbeat for the first time or feel the first kick - that just awards the baby with undeniable humanity.
The doc is very eloquent. Great episode.
What a truly "fascinating" conversation. I haven't thought about this subject in a long time, having settled long ago on a pro choice view. I think this straight forward, thoughtful conversation did more to make me think about my position in years. We tend to approach so many subjects now in a binary, my-side/your-side way that no one listens to each other. This calm and rational discussion was excellent and appreciated.
I have never heard a more articulate and cohesive defense of the pro-life position as was presented by this doctor. Kudos to him
💯, the argument that the zygote is a human form by virtue of the value he placed on the study by 5000 biologists should end all arguments against it. Which is why we need to get men vasectomies to prevent the danger to human life, as thier inconvenience is much less than the inconvenience a mother would observe for any reason an abortion is considered. Im sure the religious males will be up for it 😅
My best friend was a child of rape. When I asked his thoughts he said “ I was brought into existence through a tragedy, but killing me for the actions of my genetic Father would have been another” that hit me deep.
This reminds me of one of the books I read in high school, about a man's life, starting from his mother being raped by a white man (she was native) and his later struggles. I was astonished to see how much his mom loved and cared for him regardless. It was inspiring, it reminds me of how much I love my nieces and nephews, even if their dad's are alcoholic creepy scumbags.
But assuming your friend was born in the last 50 or so years his mother made the CHOICE to have him. Abortion being legal didn't stop him being born because pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion, it just means giving woman the option to make the best decision for themselves. Surely woman should not be FORCED to give birth to their rapists baby unless they choose to....surely that's a right they deserve.
@@Kereru Jesus man, have some tact.
@@coldstuff9784 Can't handle a rational argument?
How can one say it would be a tragedy if he were not brought into existence? There is no logic in that since he sure wouldn't be otherwise.
I just wanted to comment on one part of this interview which is factually incorrect. I was a nurse specialist in cleft lip and palate up until about 2 years ago and worked in that field for 16 years. A big part of my job was speaking to parents who had just had an antenatal diagnosis of cleft. I had many conversations with parents about the possibility of abortion following an antenatal cleft diagnosis. Whilst it may be true that an abortion over 24 weeks for cleft may be technically legal, in practice it never happens in the UK. If a fetus is otherwise healthy an abortion over 24 weeks for cleft is never allowed. A number of fetuses with cleft lip and/or palate can have other major and life threatening associated abnormalities that mean they will not survive for long after birth. In practice this is the only situation in which an abortion over 24 weeks would be allowed. So it is completely disingenuous to imply a fetus with just a cleft lip could be aborted after this time. Also in practice it is very rare that parents decide to have an abortion due to the presence of a cleft anyway. Abortion after 24 weeks even for serious abnormalities of any type are extremely rare. On a more general note it is also important to say that most serious and life threatening fetal abnormalities can only be diagnosed from about 18 weeks gestation. Due to this the scan to detect these is scheduled between 18 and 22 weeks gestation with most occurring at 20 weeks. Following a diagnosis of a serious fetal abnormality at 20 weeks parents need to have time to take in this information. If they then choose to have an abortion it takes a little time to schedule. The cut off of 24 weeks for an abortion is set to take this into account. Abortions after 24 weeks are only allowed in exceptional circumstances and a fetus just having a cleft is never considered such.
It is not true to say it never happened. I agree the situation is extremely rare, but it did happened, in Hereford Hospitals NHS Trust >10years ago. To agree to termination a 28w pregnancy due to cleft palate, two doctors agreed that the diagnosis of cleft satisfied the clause of severe disability. The doctors were brought to court by J Jepson but the legal challenge was not upheld. There were numerous debates after this case, and even up to this point. 2yrs who MPs have brought a bill to amend the abortion act to exclude cleft lip, cleft palate and clubfoot.
I appreciate your explanation because for me that timeframe seemed so far into the pregnancy. Maybe there should be a clause that only allows that option to those in that awful situation
My grandson has cleft and who cares. Life is beautiful. My friends daughter is in a high risk pregnancy we have our fingers crossed
Thanks for this, unfortunately it is so common for the pro life side to exaggerate fringe cases as though it is the norm.
Abortion for disability = eugenics... end of. It is wrong
What a fantastic interview. I really appreciate the genuine pushback from Konstantin and I appreciate the guest’s calm demeanor and reasoned responses.
A woman that births a child conceived from rape is commendable, but to mandate and force a women to carry that child to birth seems completely unreasonable and cruel.
Most of the stricter US state laws put an exception to this for a reason
The child is faultless
So why in this case is the rapist not killed but the innocent child is.
You seek to punish the woman ? It is the choice of the woman involved and nobody else.
@@seasidebreezes This is not a fact but an opinion.
It might help the discussion to understand why women or girls, who have abortions late in pregnancy, wait so long. Thinking of people that I know personally, that had late abortions, both were teenagers, both were forced to conceal their pregnancies and one had to travel to the UK. One hid her pregnancy for months because she knew her parents would force her to have an abortion, and they did. The other hid her pregnancy because she'd been molested for years by a friend of her fathers, and she knew her parents would force her to keep it. Late abortion is horrific and many of the women and girls having them need more options and better information.
This has always been my problem with prolife's stance. I absolutely abhore abortion. I hate how it's viewed as a sign of women's rights as opposed to a medical necessary at best or a tragedy at worse. We don't have to dehumanize unborn children to give women a choice in healthcare.
Now that my stance is known, here's why I don't consider myself prolife or like their approach.
Prolife's approach is to legislate now and worry about the consequences later. That is a losing battle that ultimately harms more than it helps. If they really cared about ending abortion as much as they care about making noise, they would ditch the plan of trying to make abortion illegal and start focus on root causes. When we look at the profile of women who get abortions, most of them are NOT the psychopath women who say, "Ha, ha Christians. I'm getting abortion." Those women make such a small portion of those who get an abortion. Most are young, scared girls who literally do not know what to do.
What if instead of using funds to picket and defund Planned Parenthood, we offer an alternative? One where we offer affordable counciling not just for the mother, but her whole family? What if this facility offered councilling for not just the young mother, but her whole family? What if it had councilers and social workers who are able to go on site with the young woman when she tells her parents and help mitigate through that initial anger? What if it helped connect victims of rape trauma with assistance or struggling families with resources? How much diffrent would this whole landscape be? You almost don't even need a law against abortion.
Elective late term abortion is a myth. Late term abortions are only preformed when there is a medical emergency that will endanger the mother’s life if she continues the pregnancy.
It's often said that hard cases make bad law. The problem with abortion law is that the whole point of it is to deal with tough, outlying cases.
@@witchwoman5403 The cases I'm talking about are in the late 70s. I'm talking about girls travelling across national borders to get abortions (S. Ireland to mainland UK). For the girl whose parents made the decision, they had the financial resources to take her to Hong Kong, if her pregnancy had been over the upper limit for legal abortion in the UK.
@@TheRisky9 I'm not a Pro-Life supporter. I remember being part of a group, trying to raise funds for the University creche and approaching a couple of Pro-Lifers. Their response was that women with children shouldn't be at University! Religious people have too many agendas to make their arguments about abortion clearly. They are the last people I'd go to for a discussion about Ethics and Morals. Most of the reasons for abortion come down to practical problems like, money, housing & timing. There's also some unnecessary nonsense like shame that gets dumped on women (see religion 🤮). I agree. If our Society was more parent friendly, the majority of abortions wouldn't be necessary.
This was such a good discussion! It's so good to have men learn about abortion- something they've been told they're not allowed to have an opinion on. I wish there was time for the doctor to discuss the physical dangers of abortion for the mother that isn't often talk about.
Amazing conversation! Guys you must have Erika Bachiochi on, she makes the feminist case against abortion, not one often heard. That way you don't just have a for and an against conversation, but can get into some real nuance. She's a firecracker to talk to too.
Oooh, I'll have to check her out. I'm always interested in hearing different perspectives.
There is no case, it's just "babies are inconvenient so I have the right to kill them"
Also check out New Wave Feminists and Rehumanize International. Both lead by progressive feminists against abortion and for loving and caring for women with crisis pregnancies and their children.
@@pcprinciple3774 I wouldn't parade my ignorance around like that if I were you. It's not a good look
@@snoozyq9576 i wouldn't murder babies if i were you, but here we are
The value of a human life is not built upon how much they are wanted by another.
Appreciate the discussion but it really didn't address the reality of the impact for the rest of the life of the woman who carries and bears an unwanted child and keeps it. It's not about just an "inconvenience". The impact to her body, her finances & her ability to support herself and emotional toll. It's every day for a minimum of 18 years. And, in worse cases, possibly being forced to interact with an abusive man about the baby for years to come over visitation and support. There are laws in some US states that are quite horrifying in this regard with regard to a rapist's rights as a father etc. The original trauma is never over. Looking forward to another viewpoint next.
You don’t have to keep the baby after you birth it.
@@kathyalex778 going through pregnancy itself can traumatise women both mentally (especially if the man is abusive or it was a product of incest or rape, etc) and of course physically (the bodily changes) it's not just about the raising of the child after birth.
She doesn't have to raise it (adoption) and she's going to be impacted negatively by the abortion, so either way she's screwed.
Why would he address the reality of the impact on the woman ? It's quite clear that this man does not see women as fully human. It's a philosophical exercise for him. The real life impacts it has on very real human beings is irrelevant, for him it's just theoretical and it allows him to make himself sound smart to other men.
@@ugh4387 lmfao. you poeple always make pregnancy seems more than it is.. nothing omre traumatising than killing your baby. All females of the animal species give birth. Get over it. And finances usually get taken cared of by the father. If women weren't so liberal with their sexuality, we wouldn't have this problem. Abortion is a bandaid that is ending a life to make you feel momentarily better, only to be depressed later on in life.
To me, the basic question is when you are willing to have the state force women to bear a child--- at what gestational age? To jail her? Force feed her? Forcibly medicate her? Subject her to surgical procedures?
@@sw3783 women are being jailed for miscarriages so you're wrong there.
If she was harming herself or hiring someone to harm her, society would step in to stop it. But if it involves an innocent baby the hell with it.
@@queengoblin Where is that happening?
@@possummagic3571 In her imagination.
@@possummagic3571 Oklahoma. Google Brittney Poolaw.
I was unwanted and my mother made my childhood a living hell. Nonetheless I am extremely happy to be alive and I am glad beyond belief that she was unable to obtain the abortion she wanted.
I had an abortion when 18years old, I'm 56 now and I think about what kind of human I got rid off. I had my reasons but My heart is broken for the rest of my life.
I'm so sorry 😞 🙏🏼
Forgive yourself lovely woman
I'm almost 56,had a child later in life
For reasons I won't go into I had to seriously consider abortion but I came back from that brink and had the child with no regrets
We all make choices that mean other paths are not walked
You can still make peace with the 18 year old you that made that decision so long ago❤️
Might shock a few but I had a medical abortion at seven weeks. When I found out I was pregnant my mental health was in turmoil and all I wanted to do was chuck myself off of my balcony or run in front of a bus. The abortion process I found gory and traumatic, personally. But ultimately I am glad I did it. Because if I hadn't I know I wouldn't be here now. I admit there is a lack of support for women who are unsure if they want to proceed with a pregnancy or not. To be honest, unless you've been in that situation you cannot judge a women's decision to terminate a pregnancy. This is a safe space for all of us to share our views.
I hope you do get some support and that you have had some help with your mental health Xx
I'm sorry for your tragic loss.
Agree with you 💯. Women I know who found themselves pregnant were so overwhelmed and scared, their stories were heartbreaking. One woman I met was told bc of a medical condition she wouldn't be able to get pregnant at all, so her doctor shirked birth control and said it would be a waste of time. A year later she found out otherwise and she was terrified. Who is accountable for that? There is always more at play here than people think. Separately, it is so annoying to see males discuss something they will never have to go through. Women can, and do, die from this - so when people say "Oh I care about human life..." you know that's an absolute lie. You don't care about her chance of death - and that risk should be her choice.
@@stephanielux Sounds like you are desperately trying to convince yourself more than anyone else.
Completely agree! Pregnancy feels like imprisonment and hopeless when it’s unwanted! It’s horrific!
How many (fathers to be) went to Magdalene laundries🤔?
Pretty sure many fathers did not stick around in an unwanted pregnancy pre abortion legalisation...especially if they were not married to the mother
I’ve though the same thing!
@@kseniyarosina2357 I actually snorted at that ridiculous comment.
A study done a few years ago found that almost 80% of women who had abortions were coerced by either their parents or by the father of the baby. I saw an article written a few months ago by a guy in his late 20's. It was about how great abortion is for men. It was so disgusting. His argument was he should be able to sleep around and not have to worry about raising a baby with a woman he doesnt want to marry. He literally said he has to think about his future wife and kids, and doesnt want a baby mama ruining that. Its pretty clear that abortion is being pushed on women by liberal men because they dont want to be responsible when it comes to sex.
Fantastic session with the lovely Dr Miller. What a genuine, caring articulate human. You asked all the questions I wanted to know. Thanks boys a dreadful subject handled with great sensitivity. It broke my heart to hear how little human beings are killed and dismembered. What possible excuse could there be for leaving it until 21 weeks to abort a baby! Its barbaric. The huge problem I agree with the good dr is that panic stricken girls and adults are not given the support they need at the time and after. Not all, but a lot of woman would probably choose to give birth, if not keep the baby , if they knew they had support. It's just heartbreaking.
Thanks again, you just keep getting better 👍
I'm a 62 year old mom of 3 living children and 4 that died in utero (they were stillbirths, not elective abortions).
I have long felt that my losses were a sort of generational curse stemming from my grandmother, who in the 1920s-1930s worked helping a dr who did abortions as a side job. I was raised Jewish but my prolife views have always been so strong that it led me to become a Catholic. They seemed to be the only religion with the balls to call abortion what it really is: premeditated murder of a child not yet born.
Respectfully, this is superstition, not science.
@@danielledavis8580No. It is a scientific fact that human life begins at conception, and a scientific fact that every elective abortion kills a human being.
He doesn't think how that feels to wait for the birth of a baby that will never live. How it feels like when people ask, "are you expecting a boy or a girl?" when they see a pregnant belly, when you know your baby will die shortly after birth. That woman has to keep it to herself just so that the person does not feel bad about asking such a question.
The women who keep the pregnancy are already pro life and that does not count. Even though having an abortion in this situation is not a walk in the park, the thought of keeping being pregnant knowing that the baby will never live is more terrifying.
He also has no knowledge of plan-b, but loves commenting about it. How strange. He is a doctor and should base his opinion on facts, not just feelings. Progesterone based plan-b does not stop an existing pregnancy. Women whose body does not produce enough progesterone use it to save pregnancies.
He mentions three ways to abort a pregnancy. - medical, vacuum, dilation and evacuation, but there is also induced labor.
It doesnt matter how that feels. We all die eventually, does that then justify killing your baby because it will soon die? Do you not see the flaws in your reasoning? Some contraception do in fact kill a fertilised egg. Since it hasnt implanted yet, it technically isn't a pregnancy and hence not an abortion but there's no relevant difference here.
You might want to go and talk to those transhumans who "feel" like they are genders that they are not,but oh wait, even people use their feelings when it comes to FACT, how many times does still born happens?
I am from an unwanted pregnancy. It was a complicated situation in many ways. I am glad that my birth mother didn't abort me back in late 1973 or early 74 in the US. There was various types of abuse going on in the family even when my teenage mother was growing up. I even grew up with abuse in our home from various people in our family. I suppose, you could call me a fighter. Despite my background and the abuse I experience, I didn't let the stigma of being unwanted/illegitimate dictate my life. I went on to graduate from High School and university. I contribute to my community by caring for others in my community. Nursing and caring for others keeps me from looking at my background and dissolving into self pity. Yes, my life was difficult, no doubt. Children know when they are unwanted at home. They feel it. They bear the scars.
I used to be pro-choice until one day I was working in a hospital as a technician in the OB/GYN department. I watched a pre-mature baby fight for over 12 to live. We were ordered not to feed the newborn. I realized that someone was making decisions for someone, who was truly fighting for their life. The decision was made by it's parents, but they were convinced to do this my Neo natal physicians an hour and half to two hours away from my hospital. They never laid eyes on the child. They didn't evaluate the child. They didn't know for sure that this child would have been severely disable mentally and physically. It was a heartbreaking situation. My heart still aches for the child and what potential she/he could have had and done in this world. People see children as an inconvenience and burden. They fail to see what they could be in this world. Any child can make a huge difference, not necessarily as a celebrity in large public ways. They could make small differences in small places over a long period of time. A lifetime. That is why there is always the choice to give a child up for adoption. You don't need to raise a child, you don't want to have.
❤️
That's heartbreaking. This whole comment section is. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for sharing this. Good on you for fighting. Good on you for keeping a soft heart even under a tough shell. My husband's childhood and most of his adult life have been absolute hell. But God has been restoring him. He probably just about saved my life (and I come from a stable, loving home). I know that he's made tremendous impact in the lives of others who were forgotten, on the sidelines of society, some people who were insufferable but they needed a friend, and just being loved and a couple good kicks in the butt helped them come out of whatever depression and darkness they were in when they first met him. This world would NOT be a better place without him. He would NOT be better off dead. Today, we're both grateful that he got a chance at life. When people use potential suffering, or even real suffering, to argue that death would have been better than any life at all, it just hurts me. Yes, it's a cruel world in many ways. To all of us, whether or not our parents wanted us. But we need the fighters. We need the overcomers. Every single shitty thing we've been through, as children or adults, can be a lesson to protect somebody else, can give them the tools to deal with the things on their plate, can be the strength the other person doesn't have right now but we can help them carry their load. Our suffering can be redeemed. There is hope. Life is worth living, and worth giving. I really pray that we as a society rediscover that. All the best to you
This is so heartbreaking.
I think I would have gone to prison for interfering. I simply could not have let that happen. 😱
Interesting hearing 3 well educated well paid men talking about abortion. How many of these 3 will be staying at home looking after their children?
@24:00
When I was 10 years old my mother asked me to spend the weekend at a friend of her's home to help her out because she had only one half of an arm with a hand and her other hand basically came out from her shoulder. I didn't take long for me to realize that she didn't need my help at all, that my mother wanted me to see that in spite of her handicaps she was a very accomplished strong and independent career woman. God blessed my mother with great wisdom, and I never forgot that lesson.
Men should also take responsibility instead of all it landing on the woman. Vasectomies have less risks than birth control for women and it's reversible.
They were offered the pill but didn't take it. I can't watch this podcast it infuriates me. Men talking about this is a big fat no for me. I has an abortion I had no where to live etc. Yes its traumatic but it was the right thing to do. We are demonised women feel demonised for having an abortion while millions of children are neglected and abused but we are still called murdered because we did not want to bring an innocent person into a horrid world that doesn't look after abandoned children. People like these men make me so fucking angry.
The pill was offered to men in the 90s. They also don't give out free morning after pills. That would change things. Although women campaigners neans we can now use in some places morning after pills like birth control without having to give our sexual history. But it was hard to get a morning after pill 20 odd years ago. They also have a started to give the abortion pill for early pregnancy at home led by women and feminist groups. These changes are very recent.
Fine, articulate man. I don't share his position or his faith, but he's entitled to the kind of civil, searching opportunity to speak that he's been given here.
I respect this man's educated opinion, however, there are a lot of philosophical, historical, and biological aspects left out of his discussion that play a vital role in understanding abortion. Hope we hear from other guests who will touch on those facets and bring them to the discussion table.
Really? I disagree. If it’s a defenseless human, it’s murder, no?
That’s the rub: is it human or not?
Would you end a handicapped child?
A very young child still dependent on her mother’s milk?
An unwanted child?
I’m guessing not.
Pro-lifers just believe the child to be a child while still in the womb.
Care to provide them?
@@Teal_Seal in all of your examples a child can survive without a specific woman. Care givers can change, the pregnant woman can't be replaced.
Like what? You didn't name any.
@@JohnSmith-fp8il an example I can think of is the philosopher Judith Jarvis Thompson's defense of abortion.
In most European countries the limit is 3 months, which seems like a quite reasonable compromise.
Look at an ultrasound of a fetus aged 12 weeks - it looks like a small human.
@@sueedwards9334 it IS a human. so? a human that is dependent on the body of a mother to survive does not have a right to be there unless the mother wants it to be.
@@queengoblin a human that is dependent on others (the state) to survive does not have a right to exist unless the state wants it to.
Disagree 100%, but good on you for having him on, it's good to hear alternative viewpoints.
I agree 100% with his position… it’s wonderful to see that even though you disagree you like to hear other points of view. This gives me hope for humanity 👍👍
@@katiehollmer5756 I also agreed with him completely.
@@grannyannie2948 I disagreed.
IMO the criteria for personhood should be "being that emerges from or is inherently associated with the hardware/wetware required for self-awareness and reason" since that is the requirement for these concepts being used in the rational dialogue happening right now (particularly in what seems to be the process of refining moral intuitions into ethical systems or worldviews). Also given no inherent value in objective nature beyond what is assigned by some form of mind/subjectivity (formed by its respective objective substrate), you would need self-awareness to give yourself any form of moral value (or of any kind).
He weaseled out of many of the questions, like what legislation he would think was fair, but I'm glad there was a discussion. No matter what side we are on, it's something we need to talk about, and many thanks go to them for having him on. I always recommend the Tony Kaye doc "Lake of Fire" - it probably won't change your mind one way or another but it helped me understand both sides.
@@sebastiansirvas1530 The way I see it, if a twenty year old was in a car accident that resulted in a coma without self awareness, we would not see that as justification to rip them apart and kill them. Especially if medical science was sure the twenty year old would regain full self awareness in six to eight months.
As I see it bodily autonomy, which is a subject over vaccine mandates as well, gives women the right to decide whether or not to engage in sexual activity or whether or not to use contraception. But bodily autonomy, does not give her the right to end a life, that in thirty weeks or so can live independently of her body.
Given the reoccurring themes of this show, it was surprising to see how there wasn't very much push back to the idea that the woman is actually better off when she doesn't have an abortion, so we'll just take away her right to do so. In many ways, this is similar to a vaccine mandate: "We think you're better off with a vaccine, so we're going to take away your right to chose it or not."
No - the 'better off' angle was part of there overall argument, and was addressed in response to the claim that women are better off if they have an abortion.
THIS!! Also, he kept referring to rape victims who were glad they made the choice to continue the pregnancy as some kind of proof that it’s actually beneficial to do so. I can’t imagine that holds if they didn’t have a choice at all though.
@@Andrea-gx4ri in the case of rape, be supported his claim with evidence. Also, you fail to address the argument that one doesn't punish a child for the actions of another. Further, abortion in cases of rape constitute a small fraction of abortions annually.
@@joelvonthrum8658 what evidence? He said Rape victims who CHOOSE to carry the pregnancy are frequently satisfied with their choice. What evidence was presented that rape victims forced to stay pregnant would not be further traumatized by having their body violated a second time?
@@Andrea-gx4ri implied in that point is that NOT all women are happy they had to go though with it, which is obviously true. However, the value of a life is NOT linked to who its parents are nor how it came about.
I’m pro life and I’m not religious. But I have carried regret for 50 years after aborting my baby, and I deserve to feel that pain.
So you were prochoice for yourself but now others have to suffer because you cannot handle your feelings or seek therapy?
Man when he was describing the abortion process it gave me chills and I don’t get chills easy
I recommend checking out testimony by Dr. Anthony Levatino. He presents the details before Congress (USA).
Im.pro-choice but it's interesting that they didn't discuss birth control options for men and women
Yes, I find that strange as well. The morning after pill is widely available and inexpensive. This is a better option than abortion, however abortion should always be available.
@@someone2021 The "Doc" is a christian fundamentalist... you know the people who would rather millions die from AIDS rather than men put a condom on.
Idiots, all of them.
@@atee876 thats a bit disingenuous and theres no need for the hostility for a differing opinion to yours. He may be religious, but he is also a Doctor and undoubtedly more well informed on this subject than you and i.
I think he makes good arguments but i dont agree with everything he says. I also dont think contraceptives matter much in this conversation anyway, as the discussion is about the morality of killing a child, not preventing the conception in the first place.
Yes
@@atee876 Lots of Doctors are Christians and lots of Doctors who contributed to the profession throughout history held very strong Christian values.
The basis of Chemistry is founded on a theory from a devout Quaker and the theory of immunology was founded by a Christian born of a reverend
Greetings from the USA. This interview with Calum Miller was respectable and well balanced, especially in light of the one-sided arguments we often hear in the stateside media. It's also timely, with the abortion issue recently being challenged in the Supreme Court. Well done!
It's not being challenged here
@@carolecollins853 What sort of questions do you feel would be challenging?
I don't deny the immorality of aborting a baby that is mature enough to survive outside the womb.
An Indian woman living in Ireland was denied an abortion after she was having a miscarriage in the 2nd trimester. Her water broke but the baby didn't come out. Miscarriage was deemed unavoidable, they would not abort the baby because it had a heartbeat, she had sepsis and died.
Sheila Hodgers was denied cancer treatment because she was pregnant, she died 2 days after giving birth to her 3rd child.
They asked for inducing labour and caesarean but they were told no as they said the baby wouldn't survive, then later they asked for abortion when her symptoms were unbearable.
She gave birth to a premature baby girl, who died immediately.
When you are putting these "emergency-only" policies in place, it makes things complicated and drags it out.
They'll need to get permission and second opinions, probably deal with a lot of legal documents or they risk prosecution for carrying out an abortion unlawfully.
I think it should be a last resort, but it needs to be available, because there are numerous justifiable reasons for abortion, as sad as it may be.
Making it overly complex and difficult just heightens the risk to the mother and means the baby develops more, making the whole process more emotionally and physically painful for all involved.
You are barking up the wrong tree. It is a very leftist argument that is an outlier and used to distort the truth.
Majority of women use abortion as a form of birth control. The radical left condone this murder of the yet to be born with, "ITS MY BODY..." It logically follows that they condone killing a cat, dog or a slave. After all, cats, dogs, slave (when there was slavery) were property. You could do anything with them. Kill them, sell them, seperate them from their partners, sell off the babies...Now that is outlawed as murder and animal cruelty.
Yet, these women have no qualms about killing a human being. Pity the doctor who thinks this way.
She took the risk having sex
We have a child through IVF, we found out after two weeks that we were having a boy. From the moment we realised that we were having a child he felt real and human. In fact he felt more real to us than any other human being in our lives.
❤️
So is it that you think because you're desperate to have a child, others should be forced to do so, or is it that you're so stupid you can't imagine that not everyone feels exactly the way you do about something?
You do realise when IVF is done countless embryos are being culled, right? If he felt real and human why not all the rest of the embryos?
Thanks for this discussion. As a prolifer I am so weary of prolifers being demonised and our stance purposefully misconstrued. I think E Whelan even said recently the pro life point of view was sexist (I’m a woman!). Refreshing to hear Calum respectfully spoked to and I’m sure he appreciated it also! I’ve seen a couple of shocking interviews where he was spoken to with complete vitriol, interrupted, spoken over (James Whale/ Emma Barnett spring to mind) yet he remains dignified and calm- he has the patience (and tolerance) of a saint!
I think ya need a part two conversation of this topic with a female guest.
Meh, people can have and express whatever opinion they want regardless of their gender. However if you’re suggesting a woman who has actually had an abortion or considered one then yeah I second that.
They probably will, as they tend to do. hence why many of us enjoy this show
I get sick of seeing feminists screech about the "right" to kill babies. Fifty percent of foetuses are male, and every foetus has a biological father. There is absolutely no reason this should be an exclusively female issue, it is an issue of humanity.
I'd suggest Lila Rose
I would like to see more than one. It would be nice to have a conversation with someone that felt it was a good choice for them. And someone who felt is was the wrong decision. Not just a pro abortion woman
The opposite to life is not choice, it is death.
All the personal stories in this comment section are so beautiful! 💕
It seems that people who want there to be no abortions talk about "supporting" the mother and child, but never say what that "support" actually means or what the cost would be to society. If there were programs in place that were going to take an unwanted child and place them directly in an adoptive family that would be a great solution. What would not be a great solution is orphanages where these children grow up without a family. The other consideration is that a focus on preventing unwanted pregnancy must be in place to stop the problem at the other end. Contraception at no cost to the young woman and readily accessible, that is an implantable device and removable when desired is one way to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. There is no perfect way to address the problem but laws against something have never ever ever been a good solution. It just criminalizes the vulnerable.
There are problems with placing older children but not babies, there are not enough babies in the west, that’s why some families go to other countries to adopt.
Contraception (including implants) is freely available in the UK.
There are long waits for adopting with babys. It's like a 1 (baby) to 30 (adults wanting to adopt) ratio. It's kids in the foster care program that need homes. Those kids come with more trauma especially the older they get. I think if we added more to Psychology classes to focus on red flags in a relationship, how to have healthy boundaries. I think that could help. Most of the time It's easier to prevent things than it is to fix things after they break.
just because something is difficult is scant reason not to pursue it all the same...
I would like to point out that the whole "well if we polled people about ....." is not an argument in an intellectual discussion. Just because an idea is in the minority or the majority does not indicate whether it is correct or not.
True. It is much easier to find objective facts about the natural universe than to find objective morality. Everyone has a point in which they morally justify killing or euthanizing. The discussion of abortion really is about the culture we have around sex, reproduction, and moral obligations toward vulnerable people, personal responsibility. A poll would show us where the culture is. Scientific facts cannot answer this debate. It entirely comes down to cultural values.
Abortions were legalized because too many women were dying in botched illegal abortions. Women count as humans too! We should, as a society, focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies, but abortion should never be illegal.
Ah so because grown adults are too foolish to close their legs or use contraceptives, we should make baby killing free and available to all. nice logic.
I agree that is one part of this. But that was not the driving or dominant reason. At least in my country.
Compelling arguments but still ..no. I don’t think a woman with unwanted pregnancy gets any comfort about statistics, ”overwhelming majority of people think this is good”
But I appreciate the calm, reasonable conversation here. Respect!
Just out of curiosity, could you explain what you mean when you say you find the arguments "compelling" but still say no? I'm just wondering whether you were willing to go along with the argument far enough to agree that it is indeed a human being involved. Because if yes, then I'm wondering - how do you justify killing (often, in a manner that would most definitely meet the legal definition of a cruel and unusual punishment) an innocent human being, for the sake of someone's comfort? I mean, ultimately, pregnancy is nine months. Yes, there is childbirth involved, which is not in the least bit enjoyable for the woman. After that, she can immediately give the child up for adoption - and a life is saved (I am of course making the assumption that you're willing to agree we are talking about a human life - if not, then could you explain why you believe otherwise?).
What strikes me is this: certainly, for a woman who doesn't want to keep the child, the whole process is arduous, untimely, and frustrating, as it forces her to suspend at least some of her plans for the next year... but if we agree that the process involves killing a human being, then why do people insist that the woman's rights are best served by allowing her to commit this act? Surely, the case should be made instead for society to offer better support to such women? Particularly in the often-cited case of rape, it's simply elementary that the state, which failed to prevent the rape, and the rapist who perpetrated it, should be obligated to offer the woman substantial compensation. And in the case of simply ordinary unwanted pregnancies - is there a case to be made at all, to allow a woman to kill a human being for the sake of her own convenience? Shouldn't she be expected to take responsibility for her actions? Sure, we can talk about providing her some sort of assistance (e.g.: here in Poland, pregnant women always have access to free healthcare regardless of whether they are registered in the healthcare system - and this seems more than reasonable), and there are indeed many charities that help such people - but ultimately, I just don't see what the argument here is, to justify killing a human being. Assuming, again, that you agree we are talking about a human being. But if not - please explain why you think otherwise.
The idea that you can raise the rapist out of a baby is ridiculous. So all the women who’s son became a rapist raised them wrong?
Unless you’ve been in the position of a woman who goes through an abortion, no one has any idea of how it feels for that woman. We don’t go skipping along to the clinic, like dolly daydream with rose tinted glasses on, thinking it doesn’t matter. Of course what is happening to the foetus matters and so do the lives of the women carrying those foetuses.
Abortion is harrowing, it’s indefensible, it’s all of the awful things people say but some of us couldn’t see any other way forward.
One walks into a place of medical sterility, everything feels and smells strange. Every fibre of ones being is screaming at you to get out of there and don’t look back. It’s where you know that when you come out, NOTHING will ever be the same again. Not EVER!
Don’t judge women for doing what they believe to best for both themselves and the foetus. We still have to live with our choice FOREVER, does this man think that’s easy or what any of us wanted? If anyone does you’re insane.
He needs to stop talking about this as if it’s nothing to do with the woman herself. It’s EVERYTHING to do with the woman. Keep judgements to yourselves. You’ve got no idea. Only the woman faced with this or going through this knows the truth of what’s going on inside their hearts and minds. Sometimes one regrets an act before they’ve even done it but sometimes in this cruel game of life, there is no other choice.
This doctor honestly is not thinking about women at all. What kind world is he trying to create? He’s talking statistics statistics, all he does is recite figures, no clue about real life. He’s not qualified in life yet to be talking about this. Life isn’t a set of statistics, it’s hard, it’s complicated and sometimes brutal. He’s had his head in too many books.
What ok earth are you on about. He nor anyone else here is suggesting anything of the sort.
Yes it is to do with the woman and child(most of all), as it is the father, as it is the wider society....
That you go full emotional lambast not addressing any of his actual points is typical.
You're just deflecting through histrionics. Not interested.
How is killing the baby best for the baby?
Agree completely. A man is and never will be qualified to speak about this issue.
@@Chablar89 Death is much, much better than giving birth to an unwanted baby just because of your selfish "morals"
@@queengoblin why can you not put the baby up for adoption? That's ridiculous...
Appreciate the conversation but I am quite sceptical when Dr Miller refers to "a study shows". I come from Poland, a country with one of the most restrictive abortion laws where abortion is only permitted in situations of risk to the life or health of a pregnant woman, or if a pregnancy results from rape. Thousands of women leave Poland to access abortion in other European countries, while others import medical abortion pills. Some women particularly those in difficult socioeconomic situations seek ways how to self-induce an abortion putting their own health at risk. Decisions, whether to have an abortion or keep a baby, are not taken lightly and my heart aches for those who face such difficult choices.
59:30
This fella somewhat misrepresents Peter Singer's views on abortion who says that there's no difference between a late term foetus and a neonate. This leads doc to conclude that all abortion, regardless of weeks of age, is wrong. That's not Peter's view as he talks about a sliding scale of sentience and capacity to suffer, where infanticide is not OK, but aborting a 1 week foetus is absolutely fine because of the minimal pain it would feel.
"In Practical Ethics, Singer argues in favour of abortion rights on the grounds that fetuses are neither rational nor self-aware, and can therefore hold no preferences. As a result, he argues that the preference of a mother to have an abortion automatically takes precedence."
Its moderately frustrating that he's read Peter Singer, but hasn't taken away the most important aspect of his work. It's not about arbitrary distinctions like "they're human", it's more about the capacity to suffer, the will to live and a sense of self. However this brings up uncomfortable questions about the way we treat animals, which I'd love to get the doc's opinion on.
I got to disagree with some stuff. You got to keep in mind women who have been traumatised by their abusers. I have had to read stories on women being raped by soldiers or people they never knew. Telling them to keep a child they don't want or never expected is to authoritarian. I do agree with that it has to be done within a number of weeks though because the life begins at conception argument is a weak one.
Also if you make it illegal to have a baby does that mean you will stop them from doing the stuff that they usally do like smoke, drink or other bad stuff.
You also got to look at studies of of mothers not bonding with there kids. It's easy to say IT might happen at 5 but that is only because they are less of a burden. We need to learn to teach mothers to give up their kids if they don't want them rather than forcing them to stay with them and hope for the best. To much sadness at work.
So true
I think telling someone to not end a human life is not a good definition of authoritarianism
@@TheCreativeAnimation I mean more forcing people. And saying you are not allowed to have an abortion.
But it's not any easy subject regardless.
@@TheCreativeAnimation Please be straight to the point. Do you argue that raped women should not be allowed to abort the result of the rape?
@@vulc1 the result is another human life, why should that life pay the ultimate price for a crime that wasnt theirs?
Interesting he never mentioned he’s a devout Christian which has blatantly informed his views.
It's obvious - no rational person thinks like him lol. Even Jewish people do not take the Christian stance. Jewish people respect women.
As a Christian, the only influence my faith has on my views in the matter is that it gives me a belief in the inherent value of human lives.
Every bit of rationale after that is purely secular and scientific. That's how I know whether the fetus is human, how it develops, when it can feel pain, etc.
It is troubling that so many people seem to think that it is impossible to value human life for any reason other than religious ones.
I'm a woman. My Mum was a nurse and assisted in abortions, as apart of her role in women's healthcare. She's pro-choice, but she raised two children who are both pro-lifers. Abortions are only safe for the woman, not for the unborn, which results in death. People always bring up rape., but why victimise an innocent unborn and a woman, why not give the rapist a long punishment.
For many, it’s a question of viability and whether the pregnancy was forced on the woman. Surviving rape or incest is hard enough. Being forced to carry a child they didn’t ask for is not something a government should have the ability to do to a woman.
Also, even if you want a pregnancy, it changes your body FOREVER. I have two kids. Your body is never the same. There are lifelong consequences of pregnancy. A woman should have the right to refuse those changes.
@William Tell I’m in the US. Don’t know the statistics on reasons here, but I do know “have it and give it up” isn’t a great suggestion here. We have over 400K children in foster care hoping to be adopted currently and over 100K age out of the foster care system yearly. They live their whole lives in foster care, often really bad foster homes, and at 18 are turned out on their own with no support system.
People aren’t lining up to adopt. Those who are have specifics as what kind of child they want. Primarily white and male. They don’t want a minority or they don’t want a child with disabilities or they don’t want a child that was born to a drug addicted mother, the reasons are endless and sad. Also, it is EXTREMELY expensive to adopt in the US because most adoption agencies are for-profit here.
I’ve always argued if we want to reduce abortions, abstinence only sex ed needs to be abolished, birth control should be free or really cheap at the very least, males should be held equally responsible for preventing unwanted pregnancies, and adoptions should be made affordable.
Preventing pregnancy in the first place needs to be the priority. That includes actually investigating and holding accountable rapists. Discussions about what constitutes consent need to be commonplace.
But when saying babies from "unwanted" pregnancies in the UK suffer very little setbacks (on average) compared to most "wanted" babies this is in a country that allows abortions.
I imagine that would be very different in a country that didn't allow abortions. Imagine all the babies of crack addicts, with down syndrome or server disabilities or those that would have been born into unstable social-economic situations. Many of those "really unwanted" babies are aborted so you cant ask them. But if they were born do you think they would on average be happy to be alive or not? If they were born I think would be a different story on "unwanted" babies not suffering compared to "wanted" babies.
There is also a wider impact on society. There was a 2001 study that was referenced in the 2005 book Freakonomics, in the study they found that legalized abortion appeared to account for up to half of the drop in rates of violent crime and property crime to that point. They also predicted crime would fall an additional 20% over the next two decades.
I guess the "Utopian" ideal is that we as a society shouldn't have any poor people and babies born into poor situations or with disabilities etc. We should have support in society for the mothers and families so that all babies would be valued and wanted. but we dont. and we won't, we have to be realistic with the world we live in, and the world tends to need abortions as the lesser of unsatisfactory outcomes.
Yes, until women are fully supported by their communities, abortions will continue because abortion is a survival/ economic issue and has been throughout all of human history. I know I would rather kill a baby than give birth to it and be forced to give it up for adoption because I am too poor or mentally unstable to take care of it. Abortion saves lives, it always has, and it always will. The life of an unwanted child is not a blessing.
Huge respect to you guys for having this conversation. If I approach this subject objectively I tend to lean slightly more to pro life. However, my best friend had an abortion when she was young and with a waste of space guy. She never really wanted kids after that. Then 12 years later she got pregnant accidentally after only being with a guy for a month and was going through a horrendous time personally and decided to have an abortion again and was told it was unlikely she'd be able to conceive ever again. A year later she was still with her bf and in a much better place. She got pregnant for a third time and had twins. She is now the happiest she's ever been with her little boy and girl. Now if she hadn't had those two abortions then these two little amazing human beings wouldn't exist. They are alive and exist because abortion is legal. I think now my opinion is that I can't just see either side simply as right or wrong. I think perhaps we should try and find ways to reduce unwanted pregnancies in the first place. We should try as much as possible to provide alternative options in cases of unwanted pregnancies like adoption etc. I think it's awful that men are told they don't even have the right to have an opinion and I also dislike the slogan " my body my choice " in this context because in most cases I've been able to observe where a woman is arguing this she is saying it's her body and no man is going to tell her what she can or can't do with it. This to me is the least meaningful argument supporting pro choice because the actual human foetus seems to hold little value.
He makes a wonderful argument that by the way many people make. As a post abortive woman who deeply regrets my abortion, I'm so thankful for people who will speak on this injustice.
You have all your DNA the moment of conception. Your eye color, your hair color, your build, your susceptibility to certain disease or addiction. You are human from the moment of conception, two humans cannot create anything other than a human. All humans go through the “cell”, “growth” process. The process of where you are in human growth does not make you less human. Being unwanted is not a reason to kill.
Never figured you guys would have such a fluff piece on your podcast. But seriously that story about the twins c=section really sat me back. Keep up the great work.
That argument made no sense though. Late term abortions are incredibly rare, but he didn't mention that did he? It was a red herring meant to pull at heart-strings and nothing more. This guy had zero real world data to back up any of his arguments and should be taken with a boulder of salt. I'm pretty sure they could have found someone better to represent this side of the debate.
@@SPCEMN3 they love to sweep away rape pregnancies as incredibly rare but then act like every abortion is at 39 weeks when 95% are first trimester. It’s so dishonest.
@@SPCEMN3 He mentioned late term abortions specifically. There are 5000 of them a year.
He lost me at taking the baby out of “the mummy’s tummy” 🙄
Life of a child or her convenience? No contest mate. Her convenience wins everytime!
For the "life at conception" argument, a thought: babies can and do survive outside the womb at age 0. It's called fertility treatment procedures: they are outside the womb when the egg is fertilized (depending on method used). I'm pretty sure the parents (surrogate and biological) consider that clump of cells their baby. So maybe that whole argument is just a strawman on both fronts, and we need another term to describe the period of time in between conception and viability outside the womb, which seems to be what all the kerfluffle is about when it comes to biology argument.
I think the word you are looking for is implantation. A fertilized egg in a mammal can not survive without this step. In some textbooks the line between viablity and not is embroy vs. fetus although that old way of describing things has gone out of favor with embroys being only a short phase in more recent literature.
That's very well thought out.
This is completely absurd.
By your logic if in vitro fertilization occurs using a sample of sperm and eggs that have been frozen in a bank for 17 years, the "baby" ought to be considered an adult by the time it's born.
"Oh but there's no inherent moral value to gametes until AFTER fertilization occurs BECAUSE REASONS!!!!"
Well then, the same argument applies for embryos that have been preserved for sake of later implantation. GTFO with that nonsense.
If fetuses survive outside the womb then how about taking them out of the mother's womb instead of aborting and placing them in medical care while they mature for adoption?
The problem is that viability is a moving target, because the more medicine advances, the earlier a fetus is viable outside the womb.
I was a lifelong supporter of a women's right to choose whether to continue a pregnancy for whatever reason, certainly up until a few years ago. What began to change my mind was the reasons (money, livelihood, shame, fear) we women choose to end an unwanted pregnancy.
It is extremely unfair that women are socially stigmatised and face a future of poverty for both having an illegitimate child out of marriage (recent history) as well as aborting an unwanted pregnancy. We cannot win. Additionally, the fathers are let off the hook to live their lives without consequence and that is also unfair. What is the answer?
When I changed my mind about a woman's "right to choose" I had to reconcile my previous beliefs. The fact is, the baby has a RIGHT TO LIFE once conceived ( and I do not state this for religious reasons)). This means that the pregnancy must continue and the mother has the option to give this human the right to be adopted by another family. Yes, I know it may be traumatic and upsetting for the mother to continue the pregnancy, but I think that it is the only solution. Nine months of inconvenience is worth saving a life, I think.
I have had two children, now grown up, and was extremely careful with contraception before starting my family. I feared an unwanted pregnancy above all. That choice I did not want to make.
This type of thinking raises other questions then. When does citizenship begin? When do child support payments begin? If a pregnant woman commits a crime and is sent to prison, should she be let go because her fetus is an unlawfully imprisoned person? Can a pregnant woman drive in the carpool lane?
All great questions.
Mind blowing
Deeply profound
I'm amazed by his capacity for critical thought
Not an ounce of ideology
Just logic and pure compassion
Great interview. I am sick and tired of the pro life position being demonised even though I'm staunchly pro choice.
Prolifers are demonized? Who's standing outside medical clinics and shaming and screaming at woman calling them murderers?.
@kereru I get it and those that do that are rightly criticised for behaving nastily. But that doesnt represent the entire movement.
Agree except for the many pro-lifers who don’t even agree if continuing the pregnancy is harmful to the mother. A woman should not be expected to forfeit her life when she becomes pregnant.
@Liz I completely agree! The principle that the prolife point of view follows that a human being should have to forfeit their body so another human may live is wrong in my opinion. Whether the child/cells is a human (I would still say that's a philosophical view point) if it needs another human to survive, it has no right to demand those resources of another human being if every humam beings worth is truly sacred. Apologies if this is badly phrased, it's only a UA-cam comment.
Pro lifers are not interested in supporting the life of the child or the mother, they're more pro birth than pro life.
What can be the "other position?" The intentional destruction of an innocent human being has no intellectual footing. The bravery to convey this message in this culture is life changing/life saving.
I thought this was a wonderful interview and was surprised to hear that someone wanted a discussion on this topic. For once pro life could explain in every detail why we have this stance. Thanks to you two and Dt Miller.
Great conversation! This doctors demeanor is so calming. His stats on certain things regarding this abortion debate was eye opening. Kudos for having this conversation guys! 👍🏻👏
What a gracious Christian gentleman Dr Miller is, full of empathy, sympathy and understanding - and so, so compassionate. And he loves the unborn - my hero, but God richly bless him.
And this is why i love watching Triggernometry.
I don't agree with his stance but i enjoyed hearing his well articulated point of view, great discussion as always guys. I would suggest as a 'countering' guest: Someone with knowledge of how rotten private adoption agencies in the US can be and the argument against adoption as an alternative to abortion.
I agree it would be interesting to hear the opposing argument. Though I really enjoyed hearing this discussion.
There is a 10 year waiting list for newborns of any race to be adopted in the US.
That's an admirable comment, E. All best.
The rottenness of the adoption agencies isn’t really a valid argument for abortion though. It’s an argument to fix the adoption system, or put it back in the hands of individuals or religious organizations. Any time there is a centralization of power there is nearly inevitably a corruption that emerges.
I think it would immediately lead to “Are you saying it’s better to be dead than risk possibly having bad parents?” Infants aren’t languishing in orphanages, it’s the older kids who struggle. The only risk for infants given up at birth is the adoptive parents will be abusive, which children also risk with their biological parents. At least parents through private adoption are by necessity determined, law-abiding, and financially stable; they wait years, go through background checks and home studies, and spend $8,000-$45,000 in various fees.
The guy never really presented a convincing argument for his idea that terminating the existence of a fertilized egg is the same as terminating it at 24 or more weeks. He just drew a really meaningless line of being inside vs being outside and this really says nothing and no policy is made based on this absurd division.
I hate when people say men can’t have an opinion on abortion. It makes about as much sense as saying northerners couldn’t have an opinion on slavery because it didn’t directly affect them. When deciding whether or not someone is a human, only your humanity matters, not your gender.
Well there is having an opinion and then there is what you do with that opinion and how far you are willing to take it. People get worried you will take their rights from them, hence why we are all so defensive.
The most thorough, succinct defense of the pro-life position I’ve ever heard. Thank you so much!
Thank you for having this most important conversation that all people should be having, including men. Killing another human is disturbing and horrifying. And is shocking to me that society accepts it. He is absolutely correct. Abortion hurts children and women. When it hurts an individual, it hurts society. Please open your minds and see how horrifying this is.
We live in societies where every abomination is legal.
What can I say, other than Some abominations are worse than others. The worst abominations should and must be illegal.
Abortion should be a woman’s choice. Everyone understands that embryos aren’t people and this is just a ploy to increase population sizes ala China and Russia.
@@Andrea-gx4ri birth control is a persons choice not an abortion. Where's your responsibility? No one magically makes anyone have a baby, you have to take the decision the have sex first. Birth control and self control both negate the need for an abortion. Smh.
@@Madonnalitta1 birth control fail and rapists exist, and mostly go unpunished. Even wanted pregnancies can go terribly wrong. Women should never lose the right to decide which medical risks they are comfortable undergoing. Women are people now.
I changed my mind about abortions during minute 12.
Was nearly in tears.... with a 5 month old at home... it was heart wrenching to hear about the procedure.
Thank you. I never imagined it to be like that.
I didn't realise that there were so many late term abortions in the UK alone. I naively thought they happened rarely due to severe medical complications. It's horrifying that it's so common.
@@TheLadyDelirium ditto
But the bit I don't understand is how that extends to denying women who do want abortions. It makes you sad and that may make you pro life but why does everyone else need to be? That doesn't make you pro life, it makes you forced birth. What about the 13 year old rape victim? If I am nearly in tears about her does that mean abortion is justified?
@@sarahbyer8014 Thats why i said the term should be reduced rather than - no abortion.
Unlike that doctor I'm with Konstantin.. at what point does an egg and sperm become a person?
And it's also why i admit.. i don't know what the term should be reduced to.
To me... aborting an egg/sperm is totally different to aborting a 24 week pregnancy.
What that guy did was make me think about it - which is something i've never done and whereas before, abortion at 24 weeks would have been ok with me... now i can say i don't think it should be done- especially if a baby could survive that.
On the other hand... something 5-7 weeks maybe (i don't know) e.g. baby from a 13 year old rape victim would be a completely different story.
Not black and white... i'm not against it in principle.. i think terms should be moved.
One woman from th NCT group gave birth 11 weeks early... it was insanely early. Little girl is fine and happy. Just 1 week before that.. technically the mother could have decided to have it aborted. I reconcile it in my head but never thought about it until i heard this guy talking.
@@householdone7559 but what if the 12 year old rape victim does not realise she is pregnant until 20 weeks or does not go for help until then and I am nearly in tears and it is heart wrenching to hear about her fear and pain, the fact her immature pelvis may not be able to cope with birth or her horror at birthing her abuser’s baby? If this is based on my feelings and reaction to that story then she gets her late term abortion, yes?
Now you need to have an interview about veganism!!! Feeling compassionate about human babies is exactly the same thing as feeling compassionate about animal babies. They are both equally innocent and vulnerable. They need (and deserve) our help and empathy.
I’m 50 minutes into this and I haven’t heard the discussion of sexual behavior. I’m part of a huge extended family. We believe in marriage first and sex and children after. We would never condemn anyone who failed in this belief ( and a few have) but as a whole we are blessed with happy (not easy) families and financially stable ones.
96% of women saying they glad they kept the baby could very easily be inflated by the effect where almost no moral person wants to be caught saying "I regret having this child" that you have to care for.
The other problem is you could probably use a similar statistic to justify something like forced impregnation.
Right! Also, people tend to rationalize what happens to them. It's easy to say you regret not having a child you don't have to support.
My mom lost a baby and 20 years later says how glad she is she didn't have it. I think a lot of women feel this way and will never say it or even admit it to themselves. My mom was DEEPLY shamed by her evangelical community for losing the baby because she had confided in a "friend" that she didn't want it at the time. Of course many women resent their children. We are told by society we have to have children to have worth, and then we have them and realize we gave up our actual dreams to do so. The women who most fight me on this are the ones with the most unconscious resentment. All "I LOVE MY CHILD HOW DARE YOU MOTHERHOOD IS THE BEST THING THAT COULD EVER HAPPEN TO A WOMAN" but they're MISERABLE and talk about drinking wine all day to cope with motherhood.
@@queengoblin I did have an abortion and I felt a lot of guilt and sadness at the time and also some regret after a while. It had an impact on my relationship with my partner as well. I do NOT wish it on anyone but I stand by my decision and it would have been awful to not be able to get an abortion! I am so proud of living in a country where I could get the procedure done for free.
@@monikagolab8892 exactly! Thanks for this. He studiously ignored the argument that this is not about whether it is good for women (and the teeth itching paternalistic way in which he believes that he "knows" this from his selective interviews and studies) but whether they have a right not to be forced to gestate and birth a foetus they do not want. I cannot believe he would be so sanguine about all this if he were ever going to be in this position- women still die in childbirth; there is no situation where a man can be forced to participate in something that might kill them.
I've avoided getting pregnant and past child bearing age now, but the idea of being forced to carry and bear a child I find horrific. I certainly took great care not to get pregnant but nothing is 100%. I remember seeing an interview with Angela Rayner whose first day as a nurse included laying out the body of young woman who had died as a result of a back street abortion. You ban abortion and women will still try to abort a baby.
Absolutely. And even though drinking and driving is illegal, some people still do it. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be illegal.
The moral issue is about murdering children in the womb.
Not to mention that carrying a child in and of itself is not without serious risks and it takes a tremendous toll on a woman's body even if everything goes smoothly.
@@superspecky4eyes women are strong
Nothing is 100% effective? LOL! I would think that keeping your legs together is more than enough to not get pregnant. If you wanna have fun then know you are risking yourself to being forced to carry a child for 9 months and killing a baby should not be an option just as a mother with post partum depression should not have a right to kill her newborn just because she finds it convenient.
hmmm... it would ruin me completely if I found out I came about as a result of rape.
I find so many points here where I want to interject and clarify or ask a question. Kudos to the hosts for letting the guest speak
Listening to the doctor describing the reality of abortion procedure made me feel physically sick.
An embryo is a person with potential, not a potential person