Buddy Hull has just added me and probably a lot more fans to his effort!! He has so many good points to his argument. It bothers me to have such a large sanctioning body, like NHRA with "cave man" measuring devices. A smidgen sounds like their unit of measurement. It should embarass the tech guys to the point of making them tell NHRA to have more accurate measuring devices, starting March, 2025.
Lol, The Man just literally praised the sanctions and recommended that NHRA contact them to get help with their tech program. Sometimes it’s so blatant clear people don’t pay attention to what they watch or the content that it’s fairly painful to witness. Lathe sums if people too. Like zombies huddle together in the dark or American politics. It may be true that NASCAR lacks transparency and consistency with many punishments but anyone whom is remotely familiar with their tech procedures understands that it’s extremely high tech and accurate. The process and penalties are very consistent and by the literature. Nascar and the teams themselves use MetraSCAN 3D point cloud scanners and VXinspect dimensional inspection software to check dimensional analysis of the car. The use CMM to measure parts to a micron. The my use proliometers to measure surface texture as well as ultrasonic tools for wall and material thickness. Lasers are old school technology compared to what’s being used today by NASCAR. In fact the over strict rules are and tech procedures are what destroyed the racing product. You and those whom liked your comment are clueless to the procedure and apparently the fairly straight forward punishments issued for failing it too. Like i said it’s reminiscent of the typical modern American opinion including politics where people think they are enlightened, knowledgeable experts with a valid opinion yet, they just suffer from Dunning Kruger.
NHRA better think about what they are doing to the older veterans of the sport . I don’t know it would take to much for Jim Dunn to walk away after such a BS call . Also , back in the day , you would have heard shots fired over the heads in the Tech Dept & that my friend is no BS !
NHRA has become a joke. This is at least the 4th complaint I’ve heard this year from pro teams and I’m just a casual fan, so I’m sure there have been plenty more. The other tell-tale sign is how bush league their website is. Money might be an issue but there is no excuse for unprofessionalism.
They did not cover the Calif Hot Rod Reunion, I spent over 4k preparing and spent 3k getting my truck tranny replaced 550 miles from home 550 miles from Famoso, raced and missed most of the starting line action and am very disappointed that NHRA did not cover it like they did in '23, what gives?
Have followed Dunns cars since the 70s.... They (the Dunns) have given so much to this sport and hate seeing NHRA dig them like this.. Something else is going on outside the norms..
Buddy Hull makes a good case for protesting a poor inspection. I do not have the NHRA specification for headers, so I am speaking in general terms of construction, aerospace and defensive arms contracting. 1.) You shall not reject something which you cannot clearly specify why you are rejecting it. As perhaps a poor example: Headers angle requirement is 22° +/- 1° Measure header angle was 23.5°. Header is 0.5° beyond allowable specified tolerance. They may be using some other references, such as a template. That too would require a flat surface to place the template on. 2.) ASTM, NAS410, ASME, API, FAA, etc. prescribe specifically how tests are to be performed and who is qualified to perform these tests. Absent following this type of accreditation and certification process, it is difficult to have consistency in testing and testing results. 3.) The National Institute of Standards and technology (NIST) has calibration standards that are used throughout the world. Testing instruments shall be calibrated with these standards and calibration records shall be traceable to NIST in many industries, Something NHRA may already have, or should consider. 4.) You shall have a flat surface or reference, to accurately measure angles from. Clearly Buddy’s argument that his weight would change the angle and well as the position of his car on the reference pad which was not flat are valid. The cost for this inspection mistake is owed to him by the NHRA. This inspection appears to have been negligent.
At a high level you are correct. The device measuring the angle must be calibrated. Without a calibrated flat surface as a reference you are not making a absolute measurement, you are simply making a relative measurement. There are other accrediting bodies, just depends on your industry. NIST is not the only source, the company I worked for stopped using NIST for many parameters, years ago. Very simple fix here, but I assume this is a much bigger issue, as I doubt there are any process processes or standards in place. They need to hire proper personnel to put the correct processes/tools in place, NASCAR did this many years ago.
I concur with your statement(s) regarding inspection, however, it could be as simple as you stated ref' your example - with the standard measurement procedure per an NHRA procedure, and against an NHRA standard. This has been done with acceptable results for years. Point being - A finite standard, a repeatable reference position, and accurate and repeatable measurement procedure and toolage. Really a shame that this has fallen to Bill France metrics
I was holding out until early this year when they pulled the same kind of nitpicky bullshit on Tasca over the color of his intake manifold. Haven't watched a race since then. I doubt I've watched 3 NHRA passes at all, not even highlight reels. This just makes them look like complete idiots!
It's still better than all other motorsports. Nascar, Indy, and other circle jerk race cars....Boring. F1 racing....just oversized go-karts. Nothing thrilling about them going around their tracks.
😢What a crock on NHRA, couldn't even tell the man how far off it was, perfect on one side and off on the other with no #'s or professional measuring device's, terrible 😡‼️
@@chuckfinley4757 What ? Is this some sort of English exam ? You had too difficult a effort to understand his meaning ? I can spell sanctimonious arse-hole without use of apostrophes.
@@chuckfinley4757 we're not in school kid, we live in the real world where we speak english, and if you were as smart as you are trying to prove you would know that what we type is not necessarily what shows up. go troll some kindergarten site and pick on someone of your own intellect.
Well, you better start watching again. Pro Motorcycle is the only one that most times don't have a full field. The fields are as strong as they have ever been. Next year more cars are coming.
This is the very reason workers formed labor unions. Unfair or biased treatment. This incident deserves arbitration to flush out the problem. Buddy explained this quite well (he's well versed) and if what he says is true, deserves attention in the off season. Buddy needs to find other teams that share his concerns and the sponsors know this costs them as well. Buddy should have his sponsors (and lawyers) look at any bias and meet with NHRA and make them address what Buddy describes. To fans, like me, we don't like these kind of shady doings.
@@smal1393 🤣 NHRA is one of very few sanctioned organizations that isn't worried about being politically correct. For example go back and watch Antron Brown's interview at the top end when he won, if that would have been said at any other sanctioned organization he would have been fined and docked points.
Someone didn't like you.....plain and simple, such a shame. This will come back in a positive way for you down the road....keep the faith. Long Live MoonEyes!
I agree 100% Buddy. I’ve never liked NHRA Tech, this goes back to Farmer Dismuke days, and I am a bronze level NHRA inspector myself. You’re not allowed to be right, once their arrogance and ruling. A pie in the NHRA’s face.
I assume they can't give an exact measurement because their guage is a go/no go type. I which case the amount it fails by is academic. However, the reference surface/plane they use is highly critical so this is what needs to be properly ascertained and specified. This really isn't rocket science
Go/no-go gauges would be fine, but they’re designed to measure the tolerances of hole. Even with those gauges you can still tell the discrepancy. This is why he mentions measuring off the car, in a jig. A go/no-go removes all variables aside from temp which is an easy one to solve. I think the issue has been around a while. Measuring angle using the ground as a constant is just asking for discrepancy. I think something happened a while back where they used to have a sort of jig, but could couldn’t use it on a force car so they changed it up. ITS SUPER SIMPLE. Do it off car in a jig.
They need to pre tech and certify parts in the off season.. to keep this from happening.. NHRA Just created a ton of angry people. Even non moon racing fans are pissed.. I’m glad he came forward to clarify this NHRA is slowly becoming the next NASCAR franchise
As a retired NHRA Owner and Driver, NHRA has gone down hill. Running the Tech division William "Bill" D. another name "Joe Tech" and there crew in Tech Inspection was fair and showed you where you went wrong. Plus there are other issues has happen so many times when the lights were off and NHRA knew it and just keep going. "The Show must Go ON!!!". Politics were always in NHRA, many racers has been affected by these races. Let's Make NHRA stop meaning "No Happy Racers Anywhere" I enjoyed my time from 1974 thru 1982! Wally Parks would not let this happen!. He got Street Racing off the Streets to the Track! Here is a sad part the cost of Racing is so outrageous today! Header angle and and not have a precious gig to measure this and not to give the % off or the measurement-this should be given in writing. Everyone has Tablets today, not like when I raced all was on Pen and Paper!
As a car chief in another series where tech keeps a wheel chock on the scale pad so your car doesn’t roll off I completely understand your frustration . Thank you for speaking up . We all want the best performance we can get very few of us want to cheat so to get labeled as one really really pisses one off.
They don't have a plus or minus tolerance ? Measurement tools ? If the pad they are measuring off of is not within certain tolerance obing flat and level , how can they get an accurate measurement ? Is there a performance advantage or safety reason to be so accurate , or is it an A hole rule ? Considering these teams spend , I have heard quotes of $50,000 to over $100,000 to run an event like this , it is absolute BS on NHRA's part to do this . I think you should consider suing them .
Very articulate presentation!!! He said what the problem was... Stated what was wrong... Offered various solutions to the problem.... If the NHRA has a problem with this, THEY, the NHRA is totally wrong and out of touch!!! Technical problems need very accurate measurement in fixed jigs using lazers and fixed plates. WE will see if the sacntioning body is smart to alleviate this problem!!!
He's exactly correct. If an organization is going to make a rule with respect to mathematical dimensions, the measuring devices and the surfaces the measurements are taken from must all be certified too for any of it to be checked properly by an official. If NHRA can't provide for that minimum then why make the rule to begin with? It would probably be much simpler to check these headers in a jig too. I've been saying it for years, to many rules, to much government. The NHRA organization is just a microcosm of whats happening as a whole in society.
EXHAUST Double-pipe insulated exhaust headers mandatory. Minimum Funny Car header angle 40 degrees, measured in reference to ground and parallel to the center line of the car (X axis). Maximum width of headers: 83 inches. Maximum header height 11.5 inches, measured from the ground to the highest point at the exit of the exhaust. Maximum header pipe O.D. 2.75 inches. O.D. and I.D. must remain constant beginning 8 inches below the header flange to the exit of the header. Centerlines of all four exhaust pipes must be parallel to each other and each pipe must contact adjacent tube. So if on a level surface three of the pipes are angled at 41° and the last one is 40° they are above the minimum. But on a 1° surface one pipe is 39°. It also would fail bc the centerlines of the pipes are not parallel. Did this get checked on Day 1 at tech inspection? Shouldve caught it then. Seems unlikely they switched headers.
Reminds me of the nascar tech on the 48 car failing after racing into the final 4 and being DQ'd for being too light. Funny how his car passed the pre race inspection, like Buddys car had to have before qualifying, Hmmm...
The headers sag over time. There is a huge amount of heat and downward pressure each run. They will also change pipe to pipe depending on if you put a cylinder out or not! Check them ONCE before each race then leave them alone.
Why can't NHRA measure the angle exactly like the teams do. They have to get the angle right at the shop with their measuring device. It should be one type device with no driver in the car across the board. Do these teams ever have a sit down discussion with NHRA to try to get even parity with all the teams? That's what should be done over the off-season.
Buddy, You are a better man than I. Maintaining your calm and clearly stating the truth had to be monumental. My hat is off, head bowed. The other item that come to mind for me, how may runs on those headers? Metal moves under heat. Those get f-n HOT! Measured when constructed is THE only way to ensure a correct measurement and tested in a jig after so many runs.
Only problem with that is it's not as it sits on the track. You would see guys changing engine locations to take advantage of the rules. If 70 pounds changes them that much, an half inch (or even less) higher or lower could be huge. I'd start with good measuring devices and go from there.
This was top notch professionalism. Started with respect for his organization, and explained why there is room for improvement in this headder angle measurement. Nothing personal. No threatening revenge. No whining, and no "they are out to get me" crap like a particular politician we all know.
and milner the front end of this this thing you're driving looks a little low, oh no sir no no it's 12 and a half inches regulation size,now it's been checked several times you can check it if you like sir
Lots of comments here from different sides/views. I have 40 years in the test and measurement field, the last 24 years at the number one company globally and I managed part of the business for the US and Mexico and our standards lab. What Buddy brings up is of interest to me and hopefully some good comes from this. That said it will only happen if other teams ask questions and get NHRA's attention. BTW, "other cars passed tech " is not the industry standard, means almost nothing.
This is why the car count continues to dwindle . I remember when pro classes had 20 or more cars trying to qualify . Way to much money to not have an exact measurement . Lookin good NHRA . Lol
to add a little more common sense to the argument, even the poorest fabrication shop has some type of flat surface, ie, table or plate on floor, that can be leveled. you can't weld up a chassis or do quality work with out it. i haven't been in a shop since 1990 and we had a simple metal table, top plate was 1/2 steel, sat on legs and we could put an entire frame on the table, if it moved an inch we had to level it again because even the cement floor in the shop was off that much, if in doubt try laying a long leven on your floor you think is level.
That's as bad as finding out the FAA Control Tower Computer System had vacuum tubes to supply functionality vs digital components. This actually happened at Chicago in the late 1990's / early 2000's. A 1950's tool being used in 2024. Thank You for pointing this out and continue to yell it from the mountain tops. You have a strong case that every team needs to support. Get NHRA out of the Stone Age.
Great explanation! Obviously a lot more knowledgeable than NHRA. Elementary technology, That was perfect! Hopefully they are not turning into the all mighty NASCAR. So awesome you stood up!
Buddy did an excellent job explaining the situation. If NHRA feels an inspection of the header is required they would need to take the head complete with header and place it on a flat surface and measure the angles with calibrated tools. And there has to be a + - tolerance because those headers could change slightly after a few heat cycles. Maybe NHRA should be looking at the fixtures the manufacturers use and verify placement in the fixtures but there has to be a tolerance. A smidget can’t be used.
I'm betting that's why buddy was in front of the cameras and not Jim. We all know how Jim sugarcoats his opinions! Or it's because Jim lost his voice during the argument after the dnq was handed down. I've always been a fan of Jim and the NHRA is hurting itself especially dropping the hammer on a team with a smaller budget but that brings fans to the races and makes other small teams think twice about spending the money to show up, spend the money it takes to run to be disqualified by a crap tech issue caused by the NHRA.
If I were him, I would get all the drivers to sign a right to fare competition waiver, to let him drive until this is resolved properly. I would like to know who benefited from his D.Q. What big money got bumped into his spot. Was the car that got his spot a series sponsor That would really bust this open.
When you use Harbor Freight type measuring devices. And non flat surfaces, what would you expect? I was told in teardown once, that I could only use carb cleaner and a rag to clean the combustion chamber. I asked to show me the rule book? They couldn’t. I was then asked you really run the CC,s that close? Run Forest Run !
The measurements don’t matter from the ground, the measurements should have a block to tip side to side and front to back at the same points on all headers, xyz should all be the same and if they want a high and Low point standered, then it needs to be itch the driver seating in the car seat and on a calibrated level one flat concrete pad, to make it a even playing field, right, ALL FUNNY CARS NEED TO BE CHECKED NOW Need to be checked now ,ALL NO exceptions okthat will draw the creme to the top,lol thanks BigAl California
NHRA wants a full field and often gives the lesser funded teams a break. No one is against or afraid of JDR winning the event but, safety rules apply to every team ! Nothing can be more detrimental to the sport than an out of control car jumping the spectator wall.
This is the 2nd time this year they have used this ridiculous rule! Nitro explodes making heat, heat makes metal move. We need to bring back the plex plate!
With all the problems with how the measurement is taken, why is this the first time anyone has had this happen. If it has happened before, why has no other team or driver spoke up?
I googled real quick so these numbers could be off but it said the car burns 14 gallons on a pass and each gallon of nitromethane weighs 9.5 pounds. So that’s another 133 lbs no longer in the car. Plus the 70 lbs he mentioned we are 203 lbs lighter.
Buddy is spot on! Any part of the car that they are going to be that critical on, needs to be measured on a jig. I would also suggest that the measuring needs to happen on the same flat scale that weighs the car in initial tech or at least a comparative measurement between the frame rail or block and the header angle. Even more than that, I have a great deal of admiration and respect for how Buddy is handling this. What a class act.
Like wheels that fall off through bad manufacturing so they can fine the teams for having a spec part for falling off. Got to get some extra cash somehow!
What I didn’t hear was him say we took it to our pits and confirmed the headers were fine. I’m not disagreeing with the comments about better Teching but he didn’t argue that they were wrong enough for me to believe he may have been out.
simple to measure---zero measuring device on chassis and measure the angle of the header. Rule doesnt specify anything about on track changes in angle.
Why doesn’t NHRA have a mock up, level head and let that he their standard to measure from for all teams headers. There will be varying header angles once bolted to the individual cars, based on many factors, but the beginning angle will be the same for all.
You missed one other big point with the fuel. Did you abort the run midway due to tire shake or something else that would make the vehicle heavier or lighter if a full pass. I believe that he is absolutely correct in the way he is saying. Anything that needs an exact measurement should be checked in an environment that puts everyone in the same situation.
NHRA needs some competition in hosting racing. That way the fans could have a choice where to spend their money. It's getting too expensive to attend these events.
Nhra tech has gone downhill. They nit pick the rules even in NHRA ET motorcycle and lower classes. Ive personally experienced inconsistent ruling at a track ive raced at for 10+ years. Tech inspectors are volunteers half the time and dont really seem to know the rules. We got flagged for not having proper gloves when we have the same exact gloves Eddie Krawiec was using as a PSM rider. This is why no prep and other forms of racing can pack the stands all day and NHRA only has people in the stands for 15 minutes during fuel cars.
His argument is the surface is not smooth or consistent. If you are measuring on concrete that looks like the pacific ocean on a windy day, depending on where the car stopped would give a major swing on measurements. the measurement is in ref to the ground. uphill looks good down hill looks bad. If all were measured on the true and almost perfect plane, I would totally back your statement.
Did you listen to the video? or did you just pick up, I was not in the race car when it was measured someone lighter in weight than me was? He explains why this happened. I am certain, as many of us, once the 'dust settles' and you think about it you go hmmm I wish I had said this in that moment or done that in that moment. I am certain, once back at the pits etc and began talking about what was said and done, MANY things came to mind as to why/how this turned out the way it did and how it could have been protested even MORE than it was during the initial tech check. I am sure this happened quickly and there were MANY moving parts, shock that it was happening to begin with, were evolving. Once back to the pits/phone calls/text etc others came to him and said this could have happened to make it of, That could have happened to make it off etc etc and then you realize wait a minute.............. Not being able to tell him HOW MUCH IT WAS OFF, rather, it is off buddy because we say so therefore you are disqualified without numbers etc.. well....
It seems like many of the field should also be facing disqualification, given the arguments supplied by this driver. His arguments do not hold up to logic or reality. Or, simply put: How is it his car is the only one out of spec, when the issues he cites are universal?
Guys,that's not the tool you measured us with last race. NHRA tech: We know. That one broke. We picked this one up at Harbor Freight on the way over here!
So lemme get this straight. These cars and their components are built in shops where the tables, fixtures and jigs are made to be as dimensionally stable as possible, to a very high degree of accuracy. Yet the sanctioning body’s technical scrutineers will find an area that fits the criterium of “that looks about right” on which to conduct measurements. Nah, NHRA. You have to do better. As Buddy said, talk to other motorsports organizations. Not sure I would include NASCAR in the conversation though. They’re not a whole lot better in this regard in my mind.
You are not the first we had a simillar problem in TAF ,and we were not to come back until it was fixed, as luck my have it the known builder was at the track and remeasured with the team showing them how to use thier own tool, our car was right on specs. A simple we are sorry was never mentioned and the standard is if you make a big deal about you will pay later. Time will tell to see how you make out ! GOOD LUCK BUDDY !
Measuring anything from any surface not certified is iffy at best. If NHRA is that specific on angels they need to spec the vehicle as ready to run with driver and gear onboard and all other variables considered. Plus or minus dimensions can be tight but think about what it takes to meet some of these rules and dimensions with all the variables involved in the real world.
Maybe this will result in more accurate test methods, but all teams are subject to the same, and no other teams had issues, and rules are rules. The purse money to win is break-even considering the costs to run these things. 5 Engineers to figure this out at every race, at at every inspection pad and exact angles is not practical.
Remember drag racing in the 1960's. IMO NHRA has been screwing this up for a long time now. Still love fuel cars, but Drag and Drive have replaced everything else for me.
I guess an abacus is still being used as well. Everything has to have some certification on it in racing….except something that has to have a specific tolerance. SMFH.
Just like every bureaucracy. These guys are supplying the entertainment and get treated like dirt. I agree with Buddy. If you want to make a highly technical call that requires precision and has no datum, then make it precision and defineable or go away. People probably went just to see that car. Well spoken, Buddy. And what do you get if they're wrong? $150K to compensate your weekend?
Any time there is big money involved in a sport there is always calls made that makes one wonder what's behind it or if it's a buddy thing or some ones ego.
The only good thing he said in this is they need a level surface to measure the header angle. From there it’s up to the competitor to stay within the rules. He’s saying a lot of words to try and argue his point. But take your lump and move on.
NHRA messed up on this call. Buddy had a good car. He was more controlled than I would have been
Buddy Hull has just added me and probably a lot more fans to his effort!! He has so many good points to his argument. It bothers me to have such a large sanctioning body, like NHRA with "cave man" measuring devices. A smidgen sounds like their unit of measurement. It should embarass the tech guys to the point of making them tell NHRA to have more accurate measuring devices, starting March, 2025.
the NHRA "cave man". that is being polite. Where to begin about their incompetence as it pertains to 'drag racing'? what's the point
Uneven road 😂😂😂😂 nhra tech's common density
I bet Big Jim Dunn wasn't happy about this bs
I am with you man. You guys got screwed. Sounds like NASCAR BS.
How much you wanna bet they’re gonna fine him for actions detrimental to NHRA for speaking out
They better not!!!
Hopefully they can address this ASAP in the off season.
Thats retaliation and may be criminal.
30 years ago jim dunn would have explained his disagreement with a left and right jab AND had the crowd on his side.
We were all child-like once. Fortunately most of us grow up.
He has a great point. I am with Buddy on this one. NHRA puts people in a position that don't know what they are doing
They, meaning NHRA??
@franko69 Yes, they need to train them better on stuff
Alot of little people in big job's.
What a shame, NHRA. Sketchy calls continue.
LOOKS LIKE THE NHRA IS TAKING LESSONS FROM NASCAR .... GOOD LUCK NHRA ... YOU WILL NEED IT !!!!!!!
Lol, The Man just literally praised the sanctions and recommended that NHRA contact them to get help with their tech program. Sometimes it’s so blatant clear people don’t pay attention to what they watch or the content that it’s fairly painful to witness. Lathe sums if people too. Like zombies huddle together in the dark or American politics.
It may be true that NASCAR lacks transparency and consistency with many punishments but anyone whom is remotely familiar with their tech procedures understands that it’s extremely high tech and accurate. The process and penalties are very consistent and by the literature. Nascar and the teams themselves use MetraSCAN 3D point cloud scanners and VXinspect dimensional inspection software to check dimensional analysis of the car. The use CMM to measure parts to a micron. The my use proliometers to measure surface texture as well as ultrasonic tools for wall and material thickness. Lasers are old school technology compared to what’s being used today by NASCAR. In fact the over strict rules are and tech procedures are what destroyed the racing product. You and those whom liked your comment are clueless to the procedure and apparently the fairly straight forward punishments issued for failing it too. Like i said it’s reminiscent of the typical modern American opinion including politics where people think they are enlightened, knowledgeable experts with a valid opinion yet, they just suffer from Dunning Kruger.
NHRA better think about what they are doing to the older veterans of the sport . I don’t know it would take to much for Jim Dunn to walk away after such a BS call . Also , back in the day , you would have heard shots fired over the heads in the Tech Dept & that my friend is no BS !
Fortunately people grow up. If I want to spend my money in a park with gunfire, I will visit Chicago.
NHRA has become a joke. This is at least the 4th complaint I’ve heard this year from pro teams and I’m just a casual fan, so I’m sure there have been plenty more. The other tell-tale sign is how bush league their website is. Money might be an issue but there is no excuse for unprofessionalism.
They did not cover the Calif Hot Rod Reunion, I spent over 4k preparing and spent 3k getting my truck tranny replaced 550 miles from home 550 miles from Famoso, raced and missed most of the starting line action and am very disappointed that NHRA did not cover it like they did in '23, what gives?
Like other motor sports groups.
There’s no way that Jim Dunn would ever intentionally run an illegal car.
Hahahaha😂
@speed6725 Your are spot on! Big JIM DUNN running a car that's not right?? SURE SELL THAT BS SOMEWHERE ELSE 🙄
Yes he would and he did.so what?if u don't push things to the limit and beyond you will never win.
Amen.
Getting a run denied is a huge financial loss, let alone the racers feelings.
They all push the rules and everyone has had this happen.
Have followed Dunns cars since the 70s.... They (the Dunns) have given so much to this sport and hate seeing NHRA dig them like this.. Something else is going on outside the norms..
Buddy Hull makes a good case for protesting a poor inspection. I do not have the NHRA specification for headers, so I am speaking in general terms of construction, aerospace and defensive arms contracting.
1.) You shall not reject something which you cannot clearly specify why you are rejecting it. As perhaps a poor example: Headers angle requirement is 22° +/- 1° Measure header angle was 23.5°. Header is 0.5° beyond allowable specified tolerance. They may be using some other references, such as a template. That too would require a flat surface to place the template on.
2.) ASTM, NAS410, ASME, API, FAA, etc. prescribe specifically how tests are to be performed and who is qualified to perform these tests. Absent following this type of accreditation and certification process, it is difficult to have consistency in testing and testing results.
3.) The National Institute of Standards and technology (NIST) has calibration standards that are used throughout the world. Testing instruments shall be calibrated with these standards and calibration records shall be traceable to NIST in many industries, Something NHRA may already have, or should consider.
4.) You shall have a flat surface or reference, to accurately measure angles from.
Clearly Buddy’s argument that his weight would change the angle and well as the position of his car on the reference pad which was not flat are valid. The cost for this inspection mistake is owed to him by the NHRA. This inspection appears to have been negligent.
At a high level you are correct. The device measuring the angle must be calibrated. Without a calibrated flat surface as a reference you are not making a absolute measurement, you are simply making a relative measurement. There are other accrediting bodies, just depends on your industry. NIST is not the only source, the company I worked for stopped using NIST for many parameters, years ago. Very simple fix here, but I assume this is a much bigger issue, as I doubt there are any process processes or standards in place. They need to hire proper personnel to put the correct processes/tools in place, NASCAR did this many years ago.
I concur with your statement(s) regarding inspection, however, it could be as simple as you stated ref' your example - with the standard measurement procedure per an NHRA procedure, and against an NHRA standard.
This has been done with acceptable results for years.
Point being -
A finite standard, a repeatable reference position, and accurate and repeatable measurement procedure and toolage.
Really a shame that this has fallen to Bill France metrics
NHRA has been losing members and fans for years. This only adds to it.
Yep. I haven't watched for years
I was holding out until early this year when they pulled the same kind of nitpicky bullshit on Tasca over the color of his intake manifold. Haven't watched a race since then. I doubt I've watched 3 NHRA passes at all, not even highlight reels. This just makes them look like complete idiots!
It's still better than all other motorsports. Nascar, Indy, and other circle jerk race cars....Boring. F1 racing....just oversized go-karts. Nothing thrilling about them going around their tracks.
@bennybuffylove I agree and I also prefer drag racing. I just don't care for rhe NHRA anymore.
NHRA will never stop squeezing on the little teams to force them out of competition
Little do you know, they don't want to squeeze little teams out. They need them so there can be some upsets on Sunday.
Jim Dunn Racing is NOT a little team.
Buddy is exactly right. NHRA is derelict here.
😢What a crock on NHRA, couldn't even tell the man how far off it was, perfect on one side and off on the other with no #'s or professional measuring device's, terrible 😡‼️
Don’t be so critical if you don’t know how to use apostrophes.
@@chuckfinley4757
What ? Is this some sort of English exam ? You had too difficult a effort to understand his meaning ?
I can spell sanctimonious arse-hole without use of apostrophes.
@@chuckfinley4757 we're not in school kid, we live in the real world where we speak english, and if you were as smart as you are trying to prove you would know that what we type is not necessarily what shows up. go troll some kindergarten site and pick on someone of your own intellect.
@richardlincoln8438 *an effort. Knowing or understanding what someone means to say is no excuse for poor grammar.
😂
Buddy and Mooneyes got screwed.
Big time.🤬
Screwed by his crew chief !
And they wonder why they can't field enough cars
Well, you better start watching again. Pro Motorcycle is the only one that most times don't have a full field. The fields are as strong as they have ever been. Next year more cars are coming.
@bennybuffylove hope you're right
Big Jim Dunn is the MAN! ALL MIDDLE FINGERS TO THE TECH. DEPT. OF NHRA!!!
This is the very reason workers formed labor unions. Unfair or biased treatment. This incident deserves arbitration to flush out the problem. Buddy explained this quite well (he's well versed) and if what he says is true, deserves attention in the off season. Buddy needs to find other teams that share his concerns and the sponsors know this costs them as well. Buddy should have his sponsors (and lawyers) look at any bias and meet with NHRA and make them address what Buddy describes. To fans, like me, we don't like these kind of shady doings.
Unions ? Maybe they can give everyone a Wally just for trying ?
This video is a perfect example of why I no longer follow racing at any level, it is all politically, not performance.
Okay Mr. WHINNER😭😭
What is political about this explanation ???? No he should not have been disqualified.
@@robertbrown4074 The internal politics of the teams and racing organizations.
@@smal1393 🤣 NHRA is one of very few sanctioned organizations that isn't worried about being politically correct. For example go back and watch Antron Brown's interview at the top end when he won, if that would have been said at any other sanctioned organization he would have been fined and docked points.
Someone didn't like you.....plain and simple, such a shame. This will come back in a positive way for you down the road....keep the faith.
Long Live MoonEyes!
I agree 100% Buddy. I’ve never liked NHRA Tech, this goes back to Farmer Dismuke days, and I am a bronze level NHRA inspector myself. You’re not allowed to be right, once their arrogance and ruling. A pie in the NHRA’s face.
I assume they can't give an exact measurement because their guage is a go/no go type. I which case the amount it fails by is academic. However, the reference surface/plane they use is highly critical so this is what needs to be properly ascertained and specified. This really isn't rocket science
Go/no-go gauges would be fine, but they’re designed to measure the tolerances of hole. Even with those gauges you can still tell the discrepancy. This is why he mentions measuring off the car, in a jig. A go/no-go removes all variables aside from temp which is an easy one to solve. I think the issue has been around a while. Measuring angle using the ground as a constant is just asking for discrepancy. I think something happened a while back where they used to have a sort of jig, but could couldn’t use it on a force car so they changed it up. ITS SUPER SIMPLE. Do it off car in a jig.
At 325 mph .
3 thousand of a of inch
Will not matter. At all.
Buddy Hull's car never goes that fast anyway.
They need to pre tech and certify parts in the off season.. to keep this from happening.. NHRA Just created a ton of angry people. Even non moon racing fans are pissed.. I’m glad he came forward to clarify this NHRA is slowly becoming the next NASCAR franchise
As a retired NHRA Owner and Driver, NHRA has gone down hill. Running the Tech division William "Bill" D. another name "Joe Tech" and there crew in Tech Inspection was fair and showed you where you went wrong. Plus there are other issues has happen so many times when the lights were off and NHRA knew it and just keep going. "The Show must Go ON!!!". Politics were always in NHRA, many racers has been affected by these races. Let's Make NHRA stop meaning "No Happy Racers Anywhere" I enjoyed my time from 1974 thru 1982! Wally Parks would not let this happen!. He got Street Racing off the Streets to the Track! Here is a sad part the cost of Racing is so outrageous today! Header angle and and not have a precious gig to measure this and not to give the % off or the measurement-this should be given in writing. Everyone has Tablets today, not like when I raced all was on Pen and Paper!
As a car chief in another series where tech keeps a wheel chock on the scale pad so your car doesn’t roll off I completely understand your frustration . Thank you for speaking up . We all want the best performance we can get very few of us want to cheat so to get labeled as one really really pisses one off.
They don't have a plus or minus tolerance ? Measurement tools ? If the pad they are measuring off of is not within certain tolerance obing flat and level , how can they get an accurate measurement ? Is there a performance advantage or safety reason to be so accurate , or is it an A hole rule ? Considering these teams spend , I have heard quotes of $50,000 to over $100,000 to run an event like this , it is absolute BS on NHRA's part to do this . I think you should consider suing them .
Very articulate presentation!!!
He said what the problem was...
Stated what was wrong...
Offered various solutions to the problem....
If the NHRA has a problem with this,
THEY, the NHRA is totally wrong and out of touch!!!
Technical problems need very accurate measurement
in fixed jigs using lazers and fixed plates.
WE will see if the sacntioning body is smart to alleviate this problem!!!
If his last name had started with F and ended with "orce", it would have been legal.
He's exactly correct. If an organization is going to make a rule with respect to mathematical dimensions, the measuring devices and the surfaces the measurements are taken from must all be certified too for any of it to be checked properly by an official. If NHRA can't provide for that minimum then why make the rule to begin with? It would probably be much simpler to check these headers in a jig too. I've been saying it for years, to many rules, to much government. The NHRA organization is just a microcosm of whats happening as a whole in society.
EXHAUST
Double-pipe insulated exhaust headers mandatory. Minimum Funny
Car header angle 40 degrees, measured in reference to ground
and parallel to the center line of the car (X axis). Maximum width of
headers: 83 inches. Maximum header height 11.5 inches, measured
from the ground to the highest point at the exit of the exhaust.
Maximum header pipe O.D. 2.75 inches. O.D. and I.D. must remain
constant beginning 8 inches below the header flange to the exit of
the header. Centerlines of all four exhaust pipes must be parallel to
each other and each pipe must contact adjacent tube.
So if on a level surface three of the pipes are angled at 41° and the last one is 40° they are above the minimum. But on a 1° surface one pipe is 39°. It also would fail bc the centerlines of the pipes are not parallel. Did this get checked on Day 1 at tech inspection? Shouldve caught it then. Seems unlikely they switched headers.
Reminds me of the nascar tech on the 48 car failing after racing into the final 4 and being DQ'd for being too light. Funny how his car passed the pre race inspection, like Buddys car had to have before qualifying, Hmmm...
Honestly surprised someons is just now bringing this up, 5 years after the laid back header "ban".
The headers sag over time. There is a huge amount of heat and downward pressure each run. They will also change pipe to pipe depending on if you put a cylinder out or not! Check them ONCE before each race then leave them alone.
If the mesurement process can't repeat 100% it is worthless
Why can't NHRA measure the angle exactly like the teams do. They have to get the angle right at the shop with their measuring device. It should be one type device with no driver in the car across the board. Do these teams ever have a sit down discussion with NHRA to try to get even parity with all the teams? That's what should be done over the off-season.
Buddy, You are a better man than I. Maintaining your calm and clearly stating the truth had to be monumental. My hat is off, head bowed.
The other item that come to mind for me, how may runs on those headers? Metal moves under heat. Those get f-n HOT! Measured when constructed is THE only way to ensure a correct measurement and tested in a jig after so many runs.
Header jig seems like a logical and easy check.
Only problem with that is it's not as it sits on the track. You would see guys changing engine locations to take advantage of the rules. If 70 pounds changes them that much, an half inch (or even less) higher or lower could be huge.
I'd start with good measuring devices and go from there.
It's a poor idea for every reason he just explained !
why would someone give a shit about plus or minus a degree on headers? that’s like picking fly shit out of the pepper.
This was top notch professionalism. Started with respect for his organization, and explained why there is room for improvement in this headder angle measurement. Nothing personal. No threatening revenge. No whining, and no "they are out to get me" crap like a particular politician we all know.
and milner the front end of this this
thing you're driving looks a little low,
oh no sir no no it's 12 and a half
inches regulation size,now it's been
checked several times you can check it
if you like sir
Lots of comments here from different sides/views. I have 40 years in the test and measurement field, the last 24 years at the number one company globally and I managed part of the business for the US and Mexico and our standards lab. What Buddy brings up is of interest to me and hopefully some good comes from this. That said it will only happen if other teams ask questions and get NHRA's attention. BTW, "other cars passed tech " is not the industry standard, means almost nothing.
Dunn’s car passed Tech, too….until it didn’t. Too much subjectivity in NHRA’s Tech Department.
This is why the car count continues to dwindle . I remember when pro classes had 20 or more cars trying to qualify . Way to much money to not have an exact measurement . Lookin good NHRA . Lol
Unbelievable. So sorry Buddy.
to add a little more common sense to the argument, even the poorest fabrication shop has some type of flat surface, ie, table or plate on floor, that can be leveled. you can't weld up a chassis or do quality work with out it. i haven't been in a shop since 1990 and we had a simple metal table, top plate was 1/2 steel, sat on legs and we could put an entire frame on the table, if it moved an inch we had to level it again because even the cement floor in the shop was off that much, if in doubt try laying a long leven on your floor you think is level.
That's as bad as finding out the FAA Control Tower Computer System had vacuum tubes to supply functionality vs digital components. This actually happened at Chicago in the late 1990's / early 2000's. A 1950's tool being used in 2024. Thank You for pointing this out and continue to yell it from the mountain tops. You have a strong case that every team needs to support. Get NHRA out of the Stone Age.
Great explanation! Obviously a lot more knowledgeable than NHRA. Elementary technology, That was perfect! Hopefully they are not turning into the all mighty NASCAR. So awesome you stood up!
Buddy has always been a stand-up guy since I first met him back when he was racing locally at RT66 in Joliet.
Buddy did an excellent job explaining the situation. If NHRA feels an inspection of the header is required they would need to take the head complete with header and place it on a flat surface and measure the angles with calibrated tools. And there has to be a + - tolerance because those headers could change slightly after a few heat cycles. Maybe NHRA should be looking at the fixtures the manufacturers use and verify placement in the fixtures but there has to be a tolerance. A smidget can’t be used.
Was this the only car, they all must go through tech.
I'm betting that's why buddy was in front of the cameras and not Jim. We all know how Jim sugarcoats his opinions! Or it's because Jim lost his voice during the argument after the dnq was handed down. I've always been a fan of Jim and the NHRA is hurting itself especially dropping the hammer on a team with a smaller budget but that brings fans to the races and makes other small teams think twice about spending the money to show up, spend the money it takes to run to be disqualified by a crap tech issue caused by the NHRA.
NHRA and nascar went to the same school of stupid
If I were him, I would get all the drivers to sign a right to fare competition waiver, to let him drive until this is resolved properly.
I would like to know who benefited from his D.Q. What big money got bumped into his spot. Was the car that got his spot a series sponsor
That would really bust this open.
When you use Harbor Freight type measuring devices. And non flat surfaces, what would you expect? I was told in teardown once, that I could only use carb cleaner and a rag to clean the combustion chamber. I asked to show me the rule book? They couldn’t. I was then asked you really run the CC,s that close? Run Forest Run !
Excellent description. Thanks for your assessment. It will cause change.
Remember last year what they did to Bob Tasca last yearn the intake manifold situation!
The measurements don’t matter from the ground, the measurements should have a block to tip side to side and front to back at the same points on all headers, xyz should all be the same and if they want a high and Low point standered, then it needs to be itch the driver seating in the car seat and on a calibrated level one flat concrete pad, to make it a even playing field, right, ALL FUNNY CARS NEED TO BE CHECKED NOW Need to be checked now ,ALL NO exceptions okthat will draw the creme to the top,lol thanks BigAl California
Trammed references to enforce rules and policies should not be an afterthought in these times.
NHRA wants a full field and often gives the lesser funded teams a break.
No one is against or afraid of JDR winning the event but, safety rules apply to every team !
Nothing can be more detrimental to the sport than an out of control car jumping the spectator wall.
This is the 2nd time this year they have used this ridiculous rule! Nitro explodes making heat, heat makes metal move. We need to bring back the plex plate!
With all the problems with how the measurement is taken, why is this the first time anyone has had this happen. If it has happened before, why has no other team or driver spoke up?
They have. You must have missed it.
That sucks and makes sense they need an accurate way to measure this
I googled real quick so these numbers could be off but it said the car burns 14 gallons on a pass and each gallon of nitromethane weighs 9.5 pounds. So that’s another 133 lbs no longer in the car. Plus the 70 lbs he mentioned we are 203 lbs lighter.
Buddy is spot on! Any part of the car that they are going to be that critical on, needs to be measured on a jig. I would also suggest that the measuring needs to happen on the same flat scale that weighs the car in initial tech or at least a comparative measurement between the frame rail or block and the header angle.
Even more than that, I have a great deal of admiration and respect for how Buddy is handling this. What a class act.
Maybe nhra wants to start selling "certified" parts like NASCAR and everyone can run the same stuff.
What a JOKE!
Like wheels that fall off through bad manufacturing so they can fine the teams for having a spec part for falling off. Got to get some extra cash somehow!
What I didn’t hear was him say we took it to our pits and confirmed the headers were fine. I’m not disagreeing with the comments about better Teching but he didn’t argue that they were wrong enough for me to believe he may have been out.
simple to measure---zero measuring device on chassis and measure the angle of the header. Rule doesnt specify anything about on track changes in angle.
Why doesn’t NHRA have a mock up, level head and let that he their standard to measure from for all teams headers. There will be varying header angles once bolted to the individual cars, based on many factors, but the beginning angle will be the same for all.
You missed one other big point with the fuel. Did you abort the run midway due to tire shake or something else that would make the vehicle heavier or lighter if a full pass. I believe that he is absolutely correct in the way he is saying. Anything that needs an exact measurement should be checked in an environment that puts everyone in the same situation.
Right on Good job love you From Dino Mares Fontana CA
NHRA needs some competition in hosting racing. That way the fans could have a choice where to spend their money. It's getting too expensive to attend these events.
I’d be pissed too. So frustrating when you know more about the subject than the guy disqualifying you. NHRA DO BETTER.
Nhra tech has gone downhill. They nit pick the rules even in NHRA ET motorcycle and lower classes. Ive personally experienced inconsistent ruling at a track ive raced at for 10+ years. Tech inspectors are volunteers half the time and dont really seem to know the rules.
We got flagged for not having proper gloves when we have the same exact gloves Eddie Krawiec was using as a PSM rider.
This is why no prep and other forms of racing can pack the stands all day and NHRA only has people in the stands for 15 minutes during fuel cars.
Did tech use the exact same measurement tool on every car?... if so well...there goes your argument.
His argument is the surface is not smooth or consistent. If you are measuring on concrete that looks like the pacific ocean on a windy day, depending on where the car stopped would give a major swing on measurements. the measurement is in ref to the ground. uphill looks good down hill looks bad. If all were measured on the true and almost perfect plane, I would totally back your statement.
Maybe next time you’ll sit in the car while it’s being checked out
Did you listen to the video? or did you just pick up, I was not in the race car when it was measured someone lighter in weight than me was? He explains why this happened. I am certain, as many of us, once the 'dust settles' and you think about it you go hmmm I wish I had said this in that moment or done that in that moment. I am certain, once back at the pits etc and began talking about what was said and done, MANY things came to mind as to why/how this turned out the way it did and how it could have been protested even MORE than it was during the initial tech check. I am sure this happened quickly and there were MANY moving parts, shock that it was happening to begin with, were evolving. Once back to the pits/phone calls/text etc others came to him and said this could have happened to make it of, That could have happened to make it off etc etc and then you realize wait a minute.............. Not being able to tell him HOW MUCH IT WAS OFF, rather, it is off buddy because we say so therefore you are disqualified without numbers etc.. well....
@@lilbitofjoy6130half ass at best
@lilbitofjoy6130 Jim Dunn knew "How much they were off" when he had the crew install them !
@@kurtfoulke5130 Oh, you were there in the pits and saw this??? DO tell with first hand eye witness knowledge.
@@kurtfoulke5130 wrong. We don’t have a way of measuring them.
well said
It seems like many of the field should also be facing disqualification, given the arguments supplied by this driver. His arguments do not hold up to logic or reality. Or, simply put: How is it his car is the only one out of spec, when the issues he cites are universal?
Guys,that's not the tool you measured us with last race. NHRA tech: We know. That one broke. We picked this one up at Harbor Freight on the way over here!
"We broke the inspection tool at last weeks race & forgot to replace it, so we've got duct tape, zip ties, and JB Weld on it, should be fine....."
Funny how nobody else had a problem with the inspection.
How many cars had their header angle checked? Was their driver in or out of the seat during the inspection?
@@LowLevelNC Face it, someone noticed something was off with his headers, and he got caught. Now he is making excuses.
Yes but they still can't tell him how far they're off? That's just bullshit then.
@@88racing1 it doesn't matter, they are out of spec.
Yes NHRA needs to get there Shi% together they are getting out of control Hull crew is not trying to pull one over on everyone
Perhaps NHRA could use a fixed template for the headers to fit in.
The airlines have one for my carry on luggage.
I think he has a legitimate " Beef " !
So lemme get this straight. These cars and their components are built in shops where the tables, fixtures and jigs are made to be as dimensionally stable as possible, to a very high degree of accuracy. Yet the sanctioning body’s technical scrutineers will find an area that fits the criterium of “that looks about right” on which to conduct measurements. Nah, NHRA. You have to do better. As Buddy said, talk to other motorsports organizations. Not sure I would include NASCAR in the conversation though. They’re not a whole lot better in this regard in my mind.
You are not the first we had a simillar problem in TAF ,and we were not to come back until it was fixed, as luck my have it the known builder was at the track and remeasured with the team showing them how to use thier own tool, our car was right on specs. A simple we are sorry was never mentioned and the standard is if you make a big deal about you will pay later. Time will tell to see how you make out ! GOOD LUCK BUDDY !
Measuring anything from any surface not certified is iffy at best. If NHRA is that specific on angels they need to spec the vehicle as ready to run with driver and gear onboard and all other variables considered. Plus or minus dimensions can be tight but think about what it takes to meet some of these rules and dimensions with all the variables involved in the real world.
Maybe this will result in more accurate test methods, but all teams are subject to the same, and no other teams had issues, and rules are rules. The purse money to win is break-even considering the costs to run these things. 5 Engineers to figure this out at every race, at at every inspection pad and exact angles is not practical.
Remember drag racing in the 1960's. IMO NHRA has been screwing this up for a long time now. Still love fuel cars, but Drag and Drive have replaced everything else for me.
I guess an abacus is still being used as well. Everything has to have some certification on it in racing….except something that has to have a specific tolerance. SMFH.
Didn't think of all those variables that come in effect
Run at the edge of legal and you may cross the line. What did we learn? Was it worth it?
Just like every bureaucracy. These guys are supplying the entertainment and get treated like dirt. I agree with Buddy. If you want to make a highly technical call that requires precision and has no datum, then make it precision and defineable or go away. People probably went just to see that car. Well spoken, Buddy. And what do you get if they're wrong? $150K to compensate your weekend?
Any time there is big money involved in a sport there is always calls made that makes one wonder what's behind it or if it's a buddy thing or some ones ego.
How many other cars got disqualified using the same method?
should be able to measure angle off front of block, would be consistent.
The only good thing he said in this is they need a level surface to measure the header angle. From there it’s up to the competitor to stay within the rules. He’s saying a lot of words to try and argue his point. But take your lump and move on.
Drag racing is far too bureaucratic.
Sounds like the tech department needs to go to the GEMBA!