ESO is PAY TO WIN!
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- Опубліковано 13 вер 2024
- ESO is PAY TO WIN! #elderscrollsonline #zenimaxonlinestudios #bethesda #paytowin #LearntopayIssue
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This is clearly a L2P issue for me. (Learn to Pay)
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I don't think ESO is pay-to-win but ESO is quite expensive. But this keeps bored kids, who do nothing but random shit, away from the game. And this alone is worth the price.
@@tobiastschenisch3713 you are entitled to your opinion. And it is valid. ESO has entertained me for 10 years. I love this game. Sadly, as I became more aware and more competitive, the glaring realization that it is pay-to-win became apparent. If you do not compete on an intermediate to advanced level, this may never even be a factor for you. Which is a blessing of sorts
@@Grimsforge-Gaming I never do PvP. That might be the explanation for our different point of views.
Yeah it's been sad watching so many players leave the game. Can't blame them because ZOS doesn't care what they have to say.
It's sad seeing so many guildies go after patch 35. The game as never been the same since.
Had such high hopes for pvp in this game, coming from Dark Age of Camelot RvR and ZoS advertising ESO initially as a PvP centric game. Any "serious" skill based pvp came to a closure for me when they introduced Hybridization. It's just silly when a Dps class can 1 shot heal themselves to fulll health. I still enjoy pvp for its combat and to hang with friends, that's about it
Day one player Xbox and PC account as well. I'm afraid I have to agree with you. Sad thing for me is I've tried playing dozens and dozens a different PVP games, and nothing compares to ESO for me. I hate the ball group busting sets that come out then get nerfed before next update or the ball groups run them and turn them on you making them even more powerful lol. I'm okay with cross healing I'm just not okay with stacked healing you should never be able to have two of the same type of heel on you, not to mention 12 + of the same.
I would love to see a PVP area where you can only use craftable sets. No matter what content they own access to there is a way to get access to DLC sets. Because if you don't own the DLC where that set is craftable just join a guild. I don't have ESO Plus on PC anymore but I can craft all set through one of my guilds. Might improve the economy or up time in the open world player base farming and whatnot.
Balances is another big issue. I recently started running a nightblade no proc and I can crit a snipe for almost 15k and I can tell from as far away as I am whether I'm hitting a warden/dk or anything else. Most wardens 15K snipe health bar doesn't even move dk takes a slight dip but most of the time you have to watch a replay to see if the health bar even took a slight dip lol.
For the near future I still see myself banging around on ESO but only because of lack of other options I'm interested in. Great video but please don't give up on ESO I need you out there lol
the problem with cyro isnt proc sets etc it is the fact that there are no PING LIMITS. Literally EVERY other pvp game has ping limits and even alot of pvevp games have ping limits most set at 300 but for some reason people cant grasp that folks with high ping LAG OUT a server and cause the issues
Damn didn't know you were even still around and yes I agree that's part of the issue. But there's a lot more involved in why the servers are unstable.
@@gharm9129 What is your thoughts on server stability?
@@Grimsforge-Gaming I conversed on the issues with other devs on a couple of Epic's streams about the problems and Epic mentions it to since they were asking about it. Should all be up still.
But main issue? The engine is limited by og console support, Akamai is also dropping packets because of the distance it adds to your connection and the servers are definitely down tuned to bare minimum resource allocation. Just for starters anyways lol
@@Grimsforge-Gaming Also a major issue is management looks at most common complaints and work down the list, priority issues /complaints get focus. So when they're flooded with people who can't play complaining about stealth still, sets being overtuned etc it gets fixed over them working on the servers.
Want better servers? Then devs need to listen to actual high level players, not no thumbs joe.
I've spent an ungodly amount of money on crown store items, chapters, dlcs, etc. and still suck at ESO. If it's pay to win, I'm missing something. In the 5+ years I've been playing ESO, I've never seen anything that I can buy that will give me an advantage over someone else other than experience scrolls (are can be free in daily logins). To me it just sounds like you're complaining about the the game itself (performance, item sets, etc.). Almost every single MMO drops new "chapters" or "DLCs " and along with it new item sets. Support the game you play or go play something else.
This was too real a read for me. I’m garbage at this game and have spent way more than I wanna admit 😂 the store is literally just to blow money/have cosmetics etc, unfortunately can’t make you good at the game or else I’d have bought it.
As I said, the crown store doesn't add to the pay to win aspect. And if you are not paying for the DLCs with the meta gear, you will not win at the intermediate to advanced levels of pvp with any amount of consistency. This video isn't about the pay-to-play aspect and more so about being able to win VS the overbearing meta hidden behind paywalls. Literally the definition of pay-to-win.
@@jellybrainsss I've spent a lot as well. I do not count anything cosmetic or utility (name/race change etc) as pay to win items. They do not impact pvp/combat the way the mythics, monster sets and gear attached to DLCs do. If you are trying to get better at pvp, there will be a moment where you say "I get it now.. Like how am I ever supposed to beat this.." Your eyes will be wide open and you will notice other things happening as well. I honestly don't wish that on anyone in your position though. If you are enjoying the game, live your best life and have fun!
It is not the crown store. It is the systems. The newest mythics that you have to have the newest zones. The new spell crafting that they literally gutted base game abilities and sets to be replaced by abilities in the line. Yes, you have to pay just to keep what you have had.
Sunk cost fallacy cope. Get better dude. I mean it.
GRIM knows his stuff when it comes to eso and pvp so his opinion is actually one that zos should listen to
ESO has just become frustrating and that's why I prefer to chill in No Man's Sky at the moment
I have a friend who thinks zos secretly runs the gold buying websites to get more money. I really wouldn't put it past them to do that lmao.
Same
The ones that they banned? Not sure how that would work
Thank you. I'm an MMO player going back to the days before we had rendered graphics. Back then, they were called MUDs (Multi-User Dungeons) and they were entirely text based (with some ASCII grfx). I started playing ESO about a year ago and I'm very close to level 1,000 now. My goal was to play solo and learn the game at my own speed before eventually getting into PVP after some RL things get squared away and I can devote more time to the game. But everything requires leveling in the game, from your skills to the traits in your weapons. So I find myself spending more than I care to just to get experience scrolls and running quests for scrolls to reduce research times.
I haven't paid much attention to end-game development because I can't quite afford or acquire the super elite sets just yet. I was starting to get a sense from what little I engaged in that PVP here was way too steep a mountain from a cost/benefit analysis. I'm so glad you took the time to research and present this because it has nudged me to break my addiction. I built my character into a master craftsman/Sorcerer with an emphasis on speed, stealth, and destruction. He's very squishy and anyone can buy the most rare things he can craft for pennies over what they cost to produce on the guild stores. About all he's good for in groups is smashing truckloads of trash mobs with AOEs if the tank can manage to tighten them into bunches. I have about 50 other games in my Steam library that I haven't even touched yet. Knowing what awaits me if I stick around makes this an easier decision.
@@ElderTechDragon Don’t let my video turn you away from possible years of enjoyment. Especially when it comes to pve. Eso is MASSIVE pve enjoyment. Overland, dungeons, trials, questing etc. The pay-to-win aspect does not effect your pay-to-play life. It’s only when you start to ascend in pvp, things become very clear to you the limitations set behind paywalls. In all fairness, I am probably exposed to it more than others as I train pvpers regularly that not only have to overcome learning the nuances of pvp but deal with their paywall limiting factors
heya grim, so having spoken with both high skilled and low skill players and knowing the ESO community, I can anticipate the people who will hate on this video are likely the ones who are addicted to the game or who don't see the issues you brought up as issues, or will cherrypick some of the sets you brought up (like rallying cry or powerful assault) and say they are included in the base game to discard the scope of what you covered, or who will agree that the game isn't P2W because you can farm some of the items during limited free week windows with the exception of the new release chapters.
On the issue of P2W, what some players may not know is about their crown system and how they define DLCs and chapters. DLCs are usually a 2 dungeon release with 6+ sets being released and 2 monster helms, with some motifs becoming available to farm every 3 months after their release. The DLC dungeons always able to be bought or gifted with crowns but can be accessed with a subscription. Chapters, on the other hand, are available the year after being released. You cannot access the newest chapters with a subscription, or have someone trade ingame currency for your crowns to buy one when it's released, you have to pay for the chapter or wait a year for it to be available. Taking a step back from this- this system is convoluted to any passerby, and for a member of the stream team to say you are "120000% stupid" for questioning if the game is P2W with them not realizing that this whole argument is their defense, really says a lot about how that person views the game. ZOS themselves makes it clear to stream team members that they don't need to defend the game, they just shouldn't use their platform as a stream team member to shittalk the game, so that person going above and beyond to call a viewer stupid is wild, especially when they release busted classes and abilities/systems when new patches occur. People are also forgetting that crowns have a real world value linked to them, and for people who don't save them up or get them through continued, subscription they have a poor gold exchange rate. To add to this, you have to go through the effort of finding your own trusted seller because ZoS won't make crowns a tradeable currency.
And them still trying to say proc sets don't impact performance still strikes me as wild. They went through great lengths to upgrade all (6?) of their megaservers, even giving updates as to the pandemic causing delay in hardware upgrades, and people from each megaserver still reported the performance issues.
On the PvE end they have game altering bugs that make you doubt your own skill as a player, such as the ever persistent block bug that rears its ugly head every so often- but there's instances where you are blocking, animation and all, the "Am I blocking?" addon will show you as blocking, and certain one-shot attacks attacks go through unmitigated by block (Z'Maja's blast comes to mind)- ua-cam.com/video/Hy8vGy4mgec/v-deo.html is one example that I caught, but i've collected more clips from more accomplished PvE'ers who have experienced the same exact bug of the server saying you're not blocking despite doing everything in your power to block. It's like the game just decides that it wants to fuck with you sometimes. And if it's happening in PvE where the lag isn't as bad and there are only up to 12 people fighting a scripted event, it's likely happening in PvP.
i've frequented the forums in the past and have seen many good arguments for and against ball groups and how they tested turning crosshealing off and how it specifically killed the playstyle of the ungrouped zerg healers. Some people on there are fanatically devoted to buffing magsorcs. The crazy thing is that when they come up with a ~maybe viable~ solution, they kill it off right away. I do think SHoT or Sticky Hot(Heal over Time) stacking is the largest issue with ball groups and there should be an limit to how many you can have applied to you, because any damage you receive will be compensated for in the next second or two by all the heals you're receiving. Instead, of limiting the number of heals people can receive, they divide the value in half, forcing them to just get more people using more HoTs to compensate. They literally doubled the problem by doing this. Ball groups would compensate for a change like this by perhaps having people do more instant area heals, but the thing is that requires more skill (because the people have to be in front of you to get hit by it) and is preferable to the system we have now. Supporters of ball groups will be the first to tell you- if they didn't want players doing it, they would have done something about it. Other people may threaten that they are gonna kill the game for those people if they do anything about it, after all, people stream their unkillable ball groups as PVP content all the time. I'm just waiting for that moment when a dev who thinks it's not an issue actually plays the game and encounters it and has that epiphany like the DBD dev who wouldn't acknowledge flashlight spam until he was questioned and played against korean players and got called a "noob killer."
Another thing common players complain about are the "Bomb builds" but these actually reduce lag because they're so effective at killing large groups of PvPers at once. Anyone receiving 20+ calculations for DoTs while receiving 20+ calculations for HoTs plus any status effects? All those permutations end when the player is face down. The issue with bomb builds or the rushing agony builds that set up the bomb builds is the fact that when combined with performance issues, you as the victim to both the bomb groups and the server performance sucking get stuck in a loop of constantly being pulled by that set in particular since it doesn't cause any CC immunity cooldown and appears to fire multiple times from one source when performance issues come into play, so while you and 10 other people are attempting to roll away you're getting hit by 5+, a comet, whirling blades, or some other ability which chunks your health down before you even gain control of your character.
This doesn't even scratch the surface of all the issues. There's some bugs people can abuse in cyrodiil that would spin your head. Did you know you could make it so that you can break free at will? The applications of this are wild, you can break free before a fight to put yourself on CC immunity and then go to town on people, breaking free whenever you want during the fight so they are unable to stun you. The fact that this is even possible points to poor coding. There's people who also lower the graphics to such an amount that it looks like you're playing runescape, and they are able to abuse some abilities to put out over 30k heals per second on a single target in PvP by glitching the psijic skills or repeatedly jump on their horse in cyrodiil to gain speed and get across the map in half a minute as opposed to 5-10 minutes. The worst kinds of bugs however are the ones that require you to log in/out of a populated instance and get placed back in a queue.
ZoS has implemented many things people will call "necessary evils," but described in your video are also many unnecessary evils. You didn't even touch on the login rewards, lack of inventory space, predatory loot boxes/gambling, and housing.
This game is absolutely a cash grab and I think they really capitalize on how much people are willing to put up with before they walk away from it. It's been feeling like all the magic has being sucked from the game, and the more you look into it the more you'll see people have been operating at unfair and unrealistic advantages for quite a while.
Such a well thought out post! You need to make a video on all of this as well!
Its clear they don't listen. If you are focusing on growing the game, you have to listen to the pain points of new and existing players. Restructure quests for better rewards and loot. Change the dialog style, its bad. Server stability. Feedback avenues etc. It just reminds me of fast food places trying to find meat quality that meets the minimum threshold of acceptability to maximize financial gain. Imagine going to a steakhouse, having to agree to some legal contract before entering, your steak is undercooked and when you ask the chef to look into it, they just stare at you and don't respond. They just stay quiet. This past pvp event was the worst lag I have ever experienced in gaming in the past 10 years. The players deserve better.
I left quite awhile ago and TRIED to return recently only to find that, once again, the new OP system in the game is locked behind a pay wall. This has happened with ever expansion they've released and it just got old for me. I really wish this game could be as amazing as I know it can be, but ZoS will never allow it.
Miss you! Rotten was just saying last week how he missed getting jumped on by you and Zero. You good?
@Grimsforge-Gaming haha that's funny! I miss jumping you guys too! I've been good. Looking for an alternative to eso but nothing really exists. Unfortunately I think mmo pvp may just be dead.
@@SinnfullDuck Not much out there but open to suggestions for group play!
@Grimsforge-Gaming The only game that comes to mind is New World but I never had good luck with that one.
@@SinnfullDuck Ithink they are/have rebooting it. Full server wipes with new features. I’ll need to look into it more
I'm fairly certain that I've spent well over $4000 since starting ESO in 2021 on top of the monthly membership. To be fair, I like housing and do own almost all of them now. BUT, I find it so complicated to even figure out what gear I need to actually PvP well enough to actually demolish another player that I just do PvP about 20% of the time. I've followed guides from many - Lucky-Deltia and truth be told YOUR builds have been the best for me. Although, as Sharp says, "Skill Issue" LOL I just don't hit rotations like I need to.
@@SandyAdam Thanks ❤️
Great video! Although ZOS has not giving attention to comments and observations like yours, it is important not to let those responsible for the state of the game too comfortable and your comments help at least in this sense. All the best!
Thank you! 💪
I haven't played in awhile but when I was playing you could get just about everything by playing the game not having to buy anything
@@FoEKringle Things have changed sadly. But this video isn’t really about the pay-to-play aspect. It’s understood that you’ll have to do that. But at the intermediate to advanced levels of pvp, there is little to no chance to win for most, without the items hidden behind paywalls.
There is no point in trying to get good at a game where players can simply desync your health; worse yet, guild of players who do this. These same people believe they are great players and most definitely not exploiting.
If they game is good it’s worth to pay a subscription fee the F2P part of the game should be seen more as a trial
I've played since launch, it's leaning p2w. I can still duel and pvp without scribed skills, and the best pvp sets in slot are free cyrodil sets. You can still do plenty with base game content and win
ZOS needs to make money, we need to play and have things changed up every now and then.
Newly released OP sets, weapons & abilities are the stock standard way for any top tier gaming company to derive income.
Nothing in this world is free this includes the delusion of free (and fair) entertainment.
Pay to win is probably more akin to pay to stay relevant for most ESO players.
Do I agree with your summation of the game, absolutely, its just a question of accepting the reality and playing within that.
So yes I am a happy ZOS customer because I understand that their makro objectives does impact mine because they do not necessarily have the same point of origin, for me however the end result is that the game is alive. Oh btw you forgot to mention that ZOS are ok with a high flow of leaving and entering players as that directly translates to increased income for them. The trick is to understand and adapt to the reality of what is a fact. Your video hopefully makes players understand that once a year they will have to shell out a bit of money for their years entertainment. I also play Star Citizen and believe me, the integrity in delivery and fair play from ZOS cannot be compared to the sickening lack of delivery from SC.
Apologies if there are some basic grammar etc mistakes in my reply, English is not my first language.
Maybe if they listen to both pvpers and pvers then they would definitely make more than enough money. Probably more than they are now, not listening at all.
I just can't agree about ESO being pay to win. It's true that new chapters and DLC's provide new items that MIGHT give some advantage. However, it depends on how and when such new items are used. I've known too many players that don't follow the meta, whatever it may be at the time, and still mow through even the hardest content. How is it they do this? They practice the art of getting good and staying good.
@@SkyrimBeast Agreed. These new sets/skills are largely underutilized by many. But those with the skill set and understanding can maximize their potential. That’s sorta of the crux of the problem and why many people spend years pvping but not getting any better. These sets/skills are overpowered but only after you learn the nuances of pvp.
I just got back into the game after an 8 year brake.
I think they should have the guts to go back to a subscription based game, because as F2P everything is locked behind a paywall and as a new / returning player you will get frustrated really fast.
Now I have ESO Plus and it feels like any other sub model game (like WoW). Personally I dont even dislike a sub model that much, because I can test now if I actually stick with the game and if not I just cancel and have only spent 12 bucks.
What are your expectations? That a player can just buy the base game released ten years ago (which you can get for like $5) and have access to every set, ability, class, and game system as someone who has supported the game since day 1 with a sub (roughly $1800 right now)? How is that realistic? I hate the decisions the devs make, I disagree with their philosophies, and their ten years of non-communication is an object lesson for other companies of how not to do customer service. But they need to eat, they need to pay the bills; if I can have everything the shmuck who paid $1800 without dropping a dime, then of course enough people will do that and there is no game.
While there is a literal definition when it comes to "pay to win," I understand very well that since the beginning of fantasy games back in the 1970s, that for any system to remain relevant, grow, and explore new ideas, there is going to come new books, new DLC, new additions. And those additions can;t be dogshit for fear of alienating the game's "supporters" who won't fork over the price of one and a half beers every month if the game or system is going to sustain itself. As long as a sword of death is not in the Crown Store, it's a tolerable model.
That being said, much of the rest of the video regarding the sucky class balance, terrible performance issues, letting longstanding issues persist, etc., is on point.
@@joydiv6479 agreed. I would of rather their time and resources been spent on performance, balancing, new game modes, cosmetics, and new/returning events. I’d like to see them utilize the battle spirit passive better to balance sets and heal stacking and cross healing. A lot of the problems we are seeing today could of been handled by better balancing or just outright using a generic pvp armor system and leaning on the class and weapon skill lines. Skill based pvp would protect the fair play aspect of the game and point everyone more towards learning the nuances of pvp rather than expecting godmode with armor sets right off the bat.
I play eso a lot and yes, you have to pay to have an advantage in pvp 0.50 a day.
Great video sir!
Isn't jewelry crafting behind a paywall too? Pretty sure you have to purchase a chapter for jewelry crafting, which means you can't even research the traits for transmuting infused/bloodthirsty/etc. Base game players don't have a chance. I thought about making the best base game builds and creating videos, but without jewelry crafting and mythics, there's no contest.
@@NOMnomori this right here! Someone had the opinion that even base game players have to pay for the game. Leading them to the conclusion that this fact ruins the pay-to-win claim and everything simply falls into the pay-to-play spot. Everyone pays, you simply pay more for the better things…
@@Grimsforge-Gaming that logic defeats all ptw scenarios for every game, and shouldn't be taken seriously.
@@NOMnomori 1000%
So why are people not seeing
Definition:
involving or relating to the practice of paying to get weapons, abilities, etc. that give you an advantage over players who do not spend money
As exactly what is happening with each DLC that contains skills (scribing), mythics and new powerful armor sets?
id say its buy to win and grind to win. you can pay for the content but you still need to grind for the gear and frankly i had to buy a pc and pay for the net to even compete. sad truth is, both war and competative sport are pay to win. i've made emp , been playing since beta and still use base game sets when im too lazy to keep up with meta. what i discovered is skill rotation and potions are more important than sets- the thing i really hate are proc sets- lag, unpredictability, rng etc etc. 100 agree with you on that. if i could id hard ban them in pvp.
@@ronin7992 I would love for the 4v4 or 8v8 rumors coming in Q4 to be no proc. Skill based pvp
@@Grimsforge-Gaming yes I forgot about that rumor, let’s see
Very well made video and I totally agree that zos creates a problem to "offer" you a solution. ESO is amazing but zenimax is so horrible its insane. I hate those scumbags so much..
Hate is a strong word! I don't hate them. I just want to be heard and have a discussion with them based on 4+ years of feedback from pvpers of all skill levels.
Bro cooked...
Sad but true. Strategic reserve cp introduced, messed up pvp, they change to half hlth rec in pvp, killing diversity in builds, + made other changes to game to help compensate. Just remove or reduce the c.p.!!! Is what it is, great combat system, just enjoy the good my perspective. I do play alot less tho 😂
You realize tho that ESO has horizontal progression. Normally mmos have vertical progression. So when a new expansion or dlc launches: everything you have done till that will be obsolete. So imagine playing for 2 years grinding to endgame getting the bis gear. Then the expansion dropts and everything becomes obsolete. Your level , your gear everything all content that is endgame is gone for a new endgame. ESO model is horizontal but they obv need to sell expansions so how would they sell anything if not attach a certain wanted item or anything. If u cant pay for it U can atleast still participate endgame to a certain degree. Also we as players sometimes overhype what the meta is, tarnished being a prime example of not being that extremely powerfull but ppl pretend u slot on that set and just win. Lets also not forget u can buy dlcs with ingame gold. Having played tons of MMOs(wow,gw,shaiya,lineage,archeage,rift,aion and many more) thru out my life Im not certain which practise is more frustrating for a player.Talking about a 10year old basegame compared to all the dlcs and expansions is a bit fruitless.
Your point on performance needing to be better is obv undeniable. The cause of it is entangled in their coding. They picked an engine to work in that lost progression and is limited which is a thing u cannot foresee but still I think they could put in more resources to improve it. The hardware updates clearly did some good work. But not fixed it.
Balancing, yes youre right zos balances poorly. But to be completely honest, which mmo does it well. My only big demand for their balancing wud be: more often and in smaller tweaks instead of huge overhault every year. Plus I would advice em to look into more seperate pvp and pve balance.
Ballgrouping has been a playstyle they somewhay promoted since they came from dark age of camelot so I dont think we will see them getting a treatment.
Its a good convo youre having here, I agree to some points. I find the pay2win argument a tough one. Cuz it has many nuanves and options and variations of obtaining so called bis stuff. Yes they create a hyped item or skilline when releasing a chapter but is it worse than vertical expansions where all previous obtained stuff becomes obsolete.i have more issues with the crates, rng realmoney rewards then their dlc/expansion business.
I dont wanna talk about other content creators in public so I wont, could tell u some in dms if u want ;)
Good video, interesting convo to have, u make some good points. And i share alot of ur frustrations, I think we cud be a bit more nuanced in general but I respect your opinion and ure not fully wrong or anytying.
Keep up the good work and keep RPing ❤❤
I would much rather they spend their time creating experiences, game modes, and balancing the current game. Instead we get overtuned/overpowered items. Everyone acknowledges them as overtuned/overpowered so it shouldn't come as a surprise when someone says "Hey, we probably shouldn't be releasing overtuned/overpowered sets/mythics/skills/abilities behind a paywall in a game that has pvp. That would be p2w!"
@@KhamulESO What you described as "vertical progression" has actually happened in ESO, more than once. The CP cap was raised like 5 or 6 times, bis gear got nerf while they release DLC and "chapters" with competative edge behind a pay wall. Their whole system is very greedy.
Jewelry crafting is locked behind a chapter purchase. Are you going to tell me you can compete in high level content without transmuting/crafting jewelry traits?
Also tarnished is a very powerful set, and terrible as an example of something that's not p2w. The number of people using it is ridiculous because of how good it is. And this happens all the time. It will get a nerf bc it's ubiquitous, probably while they come out with a new ridiculous set behind a pay wall.
@@NOMnomori @NOMnomori the vertical progression "was" idd their model, but thats quite long ago, its the reason they did less item benefits and more content cuz of these increases you name. But this created all kinds of other problems so they went for the horizontal system more and more. Is this better? Im not sure it has pros and cons. I can stay away from the game for months and not feeling I have to work my ass of to get on par again, which does happen in alot of other mmos, if you miss a long period there u fall behind and thats also frustrating and bad practise of the studio in a way. Nerfing bis gear happens yes, but arent we all still running balorgh, bloodspawn, masters weapons and many more old sets that r still rly rly good, so its not as black and white as u claim to be nor am i claiming there is no bad intent at all, Im just pointing out there is way more nuance to it.
Pointing out old expansions that are now dlcs which can cost u money per dlc or u can sub(which is obv what they want ppl to do) or u can even get it via gold ingame, you can also still use jewelry crafted by others, and some of the crafted sets ppl can make for u are superstrong too. I dont even think its realistic to expect to have all the game offers with just the base game, the amount we shud pay for dlcs, subs, chapters are all debatable and I will lean towards thinking the chapters are too expensive, but lets say ure new player And u buy base game with a subscription, I wud argue u get alot for ur money and sounds alot less daunting then saying: you have to buy x amount of dlcs. So again not everything is as black and white as ppl claim it to be.
Again Im not saying there is no greed aspect or that zos is not guilty of bad practises , but alot of people, including you it seems have this convo too much in black and white thinking and forget how mmos in general work. And Im not saying its good, but its the way studios operate.
Everyone running a set is not the best argument to say its good, ppl look for builds, search for builds and the first couple they find which are often ones made by ppl who purposely make use of the new sets cuz they can release the same build over and over can they? Or they wanna promote the newest content, or just wanna try the new things theirself. Tarnished is strong yes. Its efficient in certain playstyles yes. I will repeat its not that u slot on tarnished and u suddenly win in pvp.
I know plenty ppl who never bought anything outside the base game and always just grinded ingame, bought their dlcs with ingame gold, and some of them are extremely good pvpers. Im not saying this shud be doable for all, but it is an option to play the game, it starts getting tricky when u literally cannot acces it , even with time and grinding in the game. So new chapters can be seen in a bad way idd, but again, we re atleast not being made obsolete if you dont buy it.
Again Im not tryna debate what ure saying is wrong perse, your points are technically valid, but theyre valid in a 1 dimensional vision and lack a little bit of depth on what all the options and nuances are.
Excuse my wall of text but you seem like a fair guy trying to have a normal convo so I will respect u with an as indepth possible answer as possible ;)
@@Grimsforge-Gaming ye I hear ya , I have alot of things i would love to see em do too, but customers/gamers are also very divided in what we want and prioritize. I deffo agree some new sets and stuff can be seen as OP or strictly are OP but Im not sure if its worse then having other expansion systems. Im not entirely sure, but you are right where it does feel like evil greedy practises sometimes
@@Grimsforge-Gaming also at you and NOMnomori, I will lack a certain clearity for what Im trying to say for it being thru text and not having a direct back and forward, so excuse me if I sound harsh or dismissive, I truly respect both you opinions and do not disagree with the essence perse
I agree with all points except the part with the 4v4
4 of the best in that set up vs 4 average people in the best set will most likely still lose the 4 best eso PvP in some cases still requires skill but like I said before someone bites my head off I watch the full video and agreed with all points but 1
And I do long for the old PvP days were u could run anything u wanted a still compete with the meta
@@xjuggyxx2239 the comparison was 4 of the best pvpers in base game sets vs a clone of themselves in meta. Who would win if you wore Shackelbreaker vs yourself wearing Mechanical Acuity/Rally Cry/Saint & Seducer
@@Grimsforge-Gaming I’ll always take skill based juggy vs acuity juggy 😂
@@xjuggyxx2239 what about skill based Juggy vs skill based acuity Juggy?
@@Grimsforge-Gaming I’m not disagreeing that skill based acuity juggy isn’t going to win but u can’t buy juggy in the crown store is what I’m saying
Are Mighty Chudan and Crafty Alfiq P2W or Bloodspawn & Daedric Trickery? Both pairs make for the two S tier classes
@@conancimmerian5066 are they behind a paywall? Each have had their time as meta
@@Grimsforge-Gaming none of your examples are p2w. They are pay to play. I'll always make this argument. If the player chooses not to buy the latest chapter then they are choosing to play an historical game, which is completely fine. However, not pay to win since the development marketing is based on new chapters and dlc. Classic WoW servers cannot compete against Retail WoW but a player choosing to stay in classic cannot state factually that retail WoW is P2W just on that regard
Only one of those sets are not behind a paywall.
@@StarOfElyon complete BS argument. ESO was never released free to play and as such by your logic the whole game is p2w and behind a pay wall. No one I've ever argued with about eso being pay to play vs p2w has ever actually followed the definition. There is nothing in the cash shop that shows for an in game end game advantage. Unless you're talking housing
@@conancimmerian5066 It's at least pay for advantage. But I don't mind calling it pay to win either. You seem to be personally invested in defending ZOS's honor. But they wouldn't need you to be if they were better.
I don't disagree with you. However you said we can go take our business else where. Can you give me 1 modern mmo that doesnt have this to a scale or far worse ? PVP was just never the main focus and i always saw it as a side game or activity. Again you are not wrong but when the pvp community makes up a small percent why would they listen. As a business owner myself, I would never put resources into an area with the lowest return. Would i listen to my community more. For sure but still would give more focus to the large mass which is sadly PVE in this game.
@@playfuldylan4801 you’re right. See you tomorrow
of course it is, its an MMORPG. they are all pay to win. always have been too.
Your statement that PvP is PTW relies on PvP being big enough to matter to ZOS's bottom line. I don't think this is the case in ESO and most of the PvP changes are essentially part of the game in maintenance mode: small changes to give the appearance of updates.
If you want PTW, I'd say look at PvE. Look at Oakensoul HA which then got a hard nerf and now Arcanist ruling the roost.
@@samuraichicken2315 agreed!
used to love this game. played from launch til about 3 years ago. sick of them only ever releasing shitter content for pve. cant even get pvp updates or dlc every few years. ZoS is trash.
Are you new to MMO games? they are all pay to win because you can literally just buy gold and pay for carries where you bid for items. Thats why i think its so hilarious when people complain about p2w. MMO games are like real life, with an economy where money can get you anything whether the devs want that or not, because its not in the devs control.
And now we all know a little bit more about your integrity.
@@Grimsforge-Gaming i do have integrity which is why i have grown to dislike mmorpg games, even tho i played wow for over a decade. You know im right tho. They are all p2w.
@@Alexandros.Mograine So your defense to ESO being pay-to-win is "All MMOS are p2w!"
@@Grimsforge-Gaming can you read im not defending anything. Im literally just saying they are all crap because they are all p2w, that includes eso😂i just think its funny that you say this as if there was a mmorpg that wasnt pay to win.
I think u don’t see p2w games, like old l2 when u can buy all top gear and start being ultimate one shot machine, eso don’t p2w it’s just elements for p2w, when u need buy new chapter, but I play eso without new content, it’s totally fine, play some fifa or new nfs where u can do nothing without payment, eso awesome in this category
So I want to start off by saying I fully respect your opinion and I do like scribing has become over powered however my only problem is when these videos are made as a viewer I’d like you to point to an MMO and say this should be the model. Because zos or someone can simply say well then runescape is pay to win because you’re basically locked to an area that you can’t do anything in if you don’t pay monthly
Regarding sets at 18:19 I believe the only non base game set you mentioned was rush of agony the rest such as powerful assault rally cry clever alchemy are all base game.
I do think they need to tweak more and find a balance as someone who sees new dungeons and trials come out and goes well I don’t need anything from there so why farm it. So there has to be a balance between new and old but ideally you want new things to be exciting
I personally don’t think eso is pay to win simply because to me if you had all the DLCs you’d have an equal footing - granted you could argue crown sales and selling/buying gold but at that point every mmo by default is pay to win. And that’s where I struggle because I want new and exciting reasons to play and own dlcs but I also understand not everyone can pay for those so that’s the balancing act.
I could keep going but you can hmu on discord too I may be able to provide insight into some of the conversations I’ve had with zos and other content creators.
@@Official_JakeClips would love to sit down with you ❤️ Could you add a new discord link> Your current one is not connecting. Thanks!
You dont seem to understand what pay 2 win is. Mount speed, armory slots and, and crown crates dont help you in the game. Step back from the game. You're over invested and theres plenty of actual problems that exist in the game
@@Hakagure and you didn’t even listen to the video. Congratulations 🎈
@@Grimsforge-Gaming I'm watching it now. You're basically complaining that anything that isn't free is pay 2 win and you've switched from p2w to "pay 2 competitive" because it isn't pay 2 win. Lol
@@Hakagureit is actually pay-to-win and fits the definition as well. Additionally I use “intermediate to advanced” knowing that varies depending on what platform you play on. Do you feel like this video diminishes your skill in pvp? Like it calls you out for using carry sets? Or do you not understand what I’m saying in the video and want to lash out at someone for attacking your game?
@@Grimsforge-Gaming okay can you please point out the items that they sell in the crown store that give you an overwhelming advantage in the game AND you are unable to find through playing the game. I'll wait lol
How is that calling anyone out?
You don't seem to understand that you just arbitrarily labeling things doesn't help your point. Again, what is intermediate or advanced? How do you define that? Are your definitions correct? You know that sets don't make you good in ESO right? It's a skill thing. That's what I get told on dps parse videos so im not sure how you think pvp is suddenly different.
How am I lashing out by asking you to defend your arguments? I like eso but I don't feel attacked by your theory. You feel attacked because you have a premise you need to have validated that is being disproved and you're getting hostile over it
@@Hakagure annnnd you still didn't watch the video... I clearly said it doesn't have anything to do with the crown store. I don't feel attacked at all. I made this video to start conversations about the topic. I just thought people would watch it before making their first post. Lastly, it is you that do not understand. I clearly said intermediate to advanced. You want me to sound vague but the reality of it is those skill ranges are different for each platform. (pc, ps, xbox etc). I wont waste my time trying to explain this to you as I have pvp training videos that discuss this topic and you are commenting on this video without having watched it first and now again without understanding it. This is not hostile nor have you disproven anything.
Ok, so some people think that buying dlc (that gives you bad ass powerful skills and armor) is not pay to win?
Again, having dlc is not pay to win. If you don't allow a game to have dlc the meta has to be stuck for 10 years. I'm an old player and Zenimax is doing a great job keeping this game NOT pay to win. The only critique in this sense i can make is that they did propose two purchase methods: eso+ and a direct dlc purchase but with the constant introduction of new items and the crafting bag bound to eso+ they are not supporting the second method of purchase forcing you to get eso+ aniway.
And all my ingame reports and problems are addressed in 1 day time. Sure if you propose new mechanics in the game support will probably ignore it but that's a given.
You're right about 1 thing...having DLC is not inherently ptw, BUT having items/gear sets/abilities that base game can't compete with is definitely ptw. Would love to see someone use base game builds on all classes and dominate leaderboards and PvP.
@@NOMnomori exactly. I find it very interesting that new powerful armor sets, mythics and monster sets released behind paywalls can actually be viewed as NOT pay-to-win. Yes, these new sets change the meta, but don’t confuse that with the simple fact that without these new sets/meta, base game players can not win at the intermediate to advanced levels. Just to be clear, I love this game but it is pay-to-win and if you can’t see it, you’re not at that point in your pvp journey. Which is a blessing
@@NOMnomori An mmo in sot a normal game you have to add new usable tings in dlc or the game will die. Eso 10 year old can you imagine what would have happened it zos diden't introduce any new item to collect in all this time?
blah blah blah we do PVP... LOL okay. you enjoy that.
@@CarlGrindley more intelligent words have never been spoke
I've been saying that cross heals need a nerf... like if you have vigor applied... a second vigor will only heal for 25% of the original, this will allow for groups but will limit thier invincibility, yet not affect PvE... also that Warden Charm skill needs fixed, the fact its unblockable and ignores CC immunity is BS.
@@TheBigOBob exactly
Can't afford $40 a year and $15 a month to do something you like to do/ spend time on maybe you shouldn't be playing video games in the first place and get a job
You don’t understand “pay to win”. Purchasing playable dlc content is not pay to win, it’s upgrading. The direct purchase of a weapon upgrade you haven’t achieved yet is “pay to win” which ESO has none of. Nice try for the click bait. Not a good way to gain subscribers.
According to Wikipedia, "pay-to-win" (P2W) is a term used to describe computer games where players can pay for items that give them an advantage over other players who don't spend money. These items can include weapons or abilities. IE: Someone buys the dlc with scribing or the new mythic.. I'm not trying to get subscribers. That legit IS the exact thing happening in eso...
@I_ReMastered says Grim is the real MVP