Is Paragon of Power REALLY Worth it? (Late Game Analysis & tests) - Bloons TD6

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  • Опубліковано 21 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 75

  • @TKRaxzor
    @TKRaxzor  9 місяців тому +41

    One more time:
    Paragon of Power damage vastly depends on Map, Tower placement, overall interaction of the bloons versus the tower. These numbers can change dramatically depending on these factors. But Overall the point should still stand that generally they will do about 10-25% damage more give or take (with the exception of Master Builder - I may be wrong on this point too, but from what I found this seemed to be the case)
    The point still stands that Flying Fortress, Sentry Champion and a 20x buffed Grand master ninja is worth it (whether the extra 20 ninjas for that buff is worth it is a different debate)
    I know there might be some debate in the comments on some off the tests I’ve done and how you think some of it should have been done - let me know!
    Just trying to overall have a better understanding together instead of proving that this is 100% fact :) - I am only human and trying to learn after all too!

  • @kaiserquasar3178
    @kaiserquasar3178 9 місяців тому +63

    The reason master builder was almost the same regardless of POP is because its attack speed is always nerfed on round one of its creation. In late game scenarios MB will have max ultraboosted itself and therefore the nail gun will deal more damage (a bit over 3x for d91 IIRC), which means differences in its power will be more visible.

  • @polarbearking2959
    @polarbearking2959 9 місяців тому +52

    This is the video I’ve been wanting FOREVER. I love lategame content. You and Mackan Rules are SO underrated as UA-camrs

  • @jousty_
    @jousty_ 9 місяців тому +3

    One thing that paragon of power is useful for is saving space. Having as much space as possible for better towers, I feel, is one of the most important parts of late game.

  • @collinthomas8440
    @collinthomas8440 3 місяці тому

    You have TRULY done the work for the laziest of us and I appreciate it.

  • @nonsense8171
    @nonsense8171 9 місяців тому +4

    All this work just to bring us this information. Your dedication is very appreciated!

  • @SHHDADDYSWORKN
    @SHHDADDYSWORKN 9 місяців тому +3

    I personally love the long videos of yours, I listen alot to btd6 creators on the weekend when I play the ranked boss events.
    So the most unawkward way as possible the longer the better.

  • @MechaPuppy
    @MechaPuppy 9 місяців тому +6

    no desktop notifications i missed this till i opened yt in a new tab :(

  • @meinman7591
    @meinman7591 9 місяців тому +13

    Heya, Rax! I'm just here to correct you on a few things:
    Engigon overclocks hinself for up to 400% (iirc) atksped over the course of 60 rounds, and thus engigon is the main damagez not the sentries, HOWEVER this makes engigon hit the attack speed cap, of 20 shots per second. In other words, paragon of power makes no difference for engigon, unless the first few rounds are really important for some reason.
    Next, it is not worth getting a Shinobi army with ninjas, unless that was already your strategy. It's so much less space efficient that it's only worthwhile on maps with a lot of dead space. You should test shinobi army vs sun avatars, having them fill the same amount of space. Remember, if you had a tower with as small a footprint as apex, but with more damage, you would not use apex.
    Also, master bomber isn't worth in non chimps freeplay because of a high base damage, few projectiles, and sluggish attack rate. he is worth for chimps freeplay soley for stalling zomgs tho
    The reason boomergon was less effected by paragon of power is because of it's DOT effect not being benefited (I believe) and same with the orbital glaives, same with ninjagon for their sticky bomb.
    Next, some wrong crosspaths you did:
    250 dart is wrong, as the 3 extra pierce means nothing for this test, and the extra range from 052 would help him attack a little longer. Wouldn't make much of a difference tho
    250 boomer is worse for lategame than 052, as there are so many pierce buffs that the extra pierce will rarely, if ever, fome into effect, and even under the assumption it makes a small difference, it's made up by about 4 extra damage (idr the number off the top of my head, forgive me) from red hot rangs on permacharge, and the 30% extra range from 051, make it far superior.
    Overall, the ones that are worth keeping paragon of power for are as follows:
    apex plasma master (small footprint)
    magus (small footprint)
    ascended shadow* (not because it's a huge boost or anything, but because outside of ninja strats, the amount of space needed for this to be worth it, is not worth it. But if you're going ninja strats, then go gmm)
    Also fun fact, 402 ninja is more cost efficient than 502.
    And that's it.
    Permacharge takes away little space and still does very good damage
    You're likely going to die before you're done ultraboosting, and 520 enginis cracked dps
    205 ace is better than the paragon of power difference by a good amount, and can be placed where nothing else will do anything
    520 boat's extra space on water is crucial, but can be skipped on some maps
    aaaand can you do a video like this, but comparing Ezili plus ninja army vs adora plus sun avatar army? Not the temples, just the 320's (all max buffed max debuff ofc) pls thx

    • @TKRaxzor
      @TKRaxzor  9 місяців тому +8

      Great analysis! Sorry won't comment as long but I did read it all and appreciate the feedback! I agree with mostly all of it!

    • @bonkerbonk343
      @bonkerbonk343 9 місяців тому +1

      archmage needs 520 crosspath instead of 502 as extra damage outscale extra pierce and range

    • @meinman7591
      @meinman7591 9 місяців тому +1

      I missed that, good point

    • @MilesTailsPrower1992
      @MilesTailsPrower1992 9 місяців тому

      You can place towers on buc paragon

    • @bilalahmed-bu7bi
      @bilalahmed-bu7bi 5 місяців тому

      I'm pretty sure max buffed 520 archamge is better than 502 aswell

  • @xabu2850
    @xabu2850 8 місяців тому +2

    Hey raxzor - love the analysis, i think it's a great start!
    I think the big question isn't really if it's worth getting the t5s vs POP but if the t5s are still space efficient if you account for the loss of POP. I.e. should i be getting a permacharge or an extra overclock to buff my next best t5 in general

  • @MilesTailsPrower1992
    @MilesTailsPrower1992 9 місяців тому +1

    Doing the 5-0-2 ninja but also with Geraldo it got 4.5 million then in co-op you can also buff with Ezili and Obyn

  • @stickey3476
    @stickey3476 5 місяців тому +1

    Coming back to this video, I had a thought. It's to do with the boats, but it applies to other paragons aswell.
    Let's say you choose a tower that outpaces the paragon of power buff. Like, for example, carrier flagship, which only barely outpreformed the monkey knowledge. If you were to get it, what's stopping you from getting both flagship AND pirate lord? It isn't like getting multiple tier 5s will further reduce the attack speed of the paragons, and pirate PLUS flagship can do far better than the monkey knowledge. Get what I'm saying?
    Regardless, love the videos, man.

  • @frisovandenbrand3877
    @frisovandenbrand3877 2 місяці тому

    the space lsft behind can be used for other towers, if you fill the screen with sun avatars and temples and leave the t5s that take the buff away then maybe the paragon of power buff could be more relevant

  • @fatihkarli
    @fatihkarli 9 місяців тому +8

    This vid needs a lot more attention

    • @Lt_Koro
      @Lt_Koro 9 місяців тому +2

      bro. it literally just came out

    • @fatihkarli
      @fatihkarli 9 місяців тому

      @@Lt_Koro i dont care

  • @kaiserquasar3178
    @kaiserquasar3178 9 місяців тому +1

    Important to note: whether or not these towers are worth it depends not just on how much damage they do in comparison to POP damage differences in their parent paragons. In reality, they are also being compared against other towers who don't take away POP (though in a few years they might), so the pressure on them to perform is greater than any other tower. Suppose I had the choice between putting down a tower that provides an average 100,000 dps across the whole run and that doesn't fall off (ignore support), but takes away 50,000 dps by weakening its parent paragon, and another tower that provides a flat 70,000 average dps without repercussions.
    Even though the first tower is stronger, you would still use the second one as it provides more damage all things considered. Space is also an immediate consideration. In general, sun avatars beat almost all of these towers, and if they don't, then they are still likely better once you factor in POP damage stealing. Of course, Sun Avatars are huge (that Geraldo lets you get way more of them using his cape is probably a better reasom for using him than Paratotems and possibly rejuv given how shittily hard micro becomes late in the game), so take that into account, but they are also capable of slowdown with knockback and seeing through walls with UV (you have no reason to use knockback on any super besides SAs if you have a VTSG). Just something to think about.

    • @TKRaxzor
      @TKRaxzor  9 місяців тому +1

      Yes this is a great point! I agree having those towers might be worth but agreed that space is the biggest considering factor

  • @indikativ8611
    @indikativ8611 3 місяці тому

    underrated as heck

  • @dragonl1744
    @dragonl1744 9 місяців тому +3

    Very early, I am going to guess the paragons do better and I will see if im wrong or right in 40 minutes.
    After watching, I feel like it depends on the paragon and if you use abilities. If a tower does 1mil and the paragon does 2mil, with 25% decrease, the tier 5 and paragon mix would be better. Also, Grandmaster is one of my favorite tier 5s bcz of how many surakins (cant spell) he shoots out. W video

    • @birdo6504
      @birdo6504 9 місяців тому

      i think it's shurikens 👍

  • @victorsmith8699
    @victorsmith8699 9 місяців тому

    hello great video all the math is right only problem is there is some misinterpretation of the data, example : the Plasma Apex Paragon (paragon of power as POP) while yes the non POP is only 76 % of the damage of THe one With POP.its not a 23.47% damage increase but about 30.6% damage increase as if You would take 427 thousand and increase it by 23.47% ( multiply by 1.2347) you would get a result of 527 thousand when actualy the POP did 558 thousand damage so its a 30.6 % increase: as 427 thousand * 1.306 = about 557 thousand which the POP did just for clarification
    every time you have two number you can divide the one with the other, then you either have the choice to do it from the left or right
    that gives you 4 outcomes how much is one number bigger than the other or how much smaller is the one from the second and then you can switch the position of those numbers and giving you the 4 outcomes
    427,690/558,888 = 0.765251714
    1-0.765251714 =0.23474828588

    • @victorsmith8699
      @victorsmith8699 9 місяців тому

      sorry for very messy writing but i hope you get my point

  • @der_bauer3438
    @der_bauer3438 9 місяців тому +1

    1 thing for the Engi tests, i think you should have used a Call to Arms village before letting the BADs run through so the Engi has enough time to prepare the max amount of Turrets beforehand.
    in a real game you would use techbots to alternate between Homeland and Call to Arms so it should alwais have at least 1 of those active to get a lot more turrets out.
    That could have probably given all T5 Engis an extra 20-30% more dmg i think.

  • @lool8421
    @lool8421 9 місяців тому +1

    tbf, in late game runs, all that really matter is bad damage + reliable stunning
    there's also the space-efficiency aspect, like you don't want to waste space on let's say ultra jug if you can place something more space-efficient for bad damage like a superbuffed sun avatar

  • @Bruzzzio
    @Bruzzzio 9 місяців тому +1

    Here’s what I’ve taken away from this video.
    Dart T5s: Garbage
    Boomer T5s: Ok, but there are others that are better
    Grand Saboteur and Master Bomber: Absolutely not
    Grandmaster ninja: YESYESYEYSYSYEYEYSYEYEYSYSYSYEEEEYSYYSYSSSYYEYEYEYSYSYSYYEESYYSYEYS
    Boat T5s: Mid
    Engi T5s: Oh hell yes
    Plane T5s: Yeah, sure
    Wizard T5s: Nope.

  • @dannyboy1350
    @dannyboy1350 Місяць тому

    goliath and sky shredder should still be used as they can go in the corners of the map and provide dps without using important space

  • @xuansangdotrinh1055
    @xuansangdotrinh1055 9 місяців тому +1

    I would say it's worth on some paragons. Some don't affect much due to ability based or DoT effect.

  • @sonicmeerkat
    @sonicmeerkat 9 місяців тому

    honestly really surprised at the engie paragon, like it does make sense cause the thing that makes sentry champion cracked is his sentry place is an attack so buffing that directly buffs the sentrys while master builder uses mega sentrys which have a flat build rate. but at the same time it does genuinly feel like an oversight to have its main attack affected by the buff.
    really glad this video was made in general though cause bossing does dominate the paragon discussions and many folks haven't tested at all so stuff like avoiding sentry champion to get paragon of power on master builder is really silly lol, kinda made sense cause you tend to only overclock a few towers cause paragons can't be buffed (tbh still a little salty the engie self overclocks instead of having an overclock ability, especially since it doesn't effect the sentrys, even if it was just normal overclock instead of a doubled up ability like navark)
    honestly very interesting video, i do genuinly wonder if max buffing a flying fortress would be worth it in bosses cause during bossing you tend to get teirs 40's and 60's. you can grind hard to get a single paragon into teir 80 but with the huge upfront cost and paragon levels now being scaled by that, it might be more worth to get a vtsg and support temple along with the usual boss buffs, at the very least it'd be efficient for farming the levels so you can get a decent degree despite the longer set up.

    • @TKRaxzor
      @TKRaxzor  9 місяців тому +1

      Someone did point out that engi gains stacks and atk speed over rounds which I completely forgot!

  • @AC-xi4yn
    @AC-xi4yn 9 місяців тому

    Hbox wishes he was on your level. Subbed

  • @lighters5266
    @lighters5266 9 місяців тому

    i think damage increase calculation formula is (new higher dmg/old lower damage - 1)*100 = % increase, the number you calculated would be damage decrease from new to old dmg

  • @GodzillaFreak
    @GodzillaFreak 9 місяців тому +5

    For the paragons that lose to jitsu per unit area why not just skip them completely, aside from global buffs that they give of course.

    • @meinman7591
      @meinman7591 9 місяців тому

      because (some of) those are ones that give global buffs, apex is only used because it can be fit where nothing else can and it's better than jug so literally why not, and most importantly, space efficiency. Never use jitsu with Shinobi stacks, unless it's your entire strategy. Remember, people are still trying to conclusively determine if sun avatars or ninjas are better. The only thing we know is ninjas are better for chimps due to being cheaper, but here in easy mode, we don't care about money.
      But also, remember, if you're using a lot of temples, you won't have a lot of space. This is all about space efficiency, and jitsu simply lacks that when it isn't your entire strat

  • @snivydream
    @snivydream 9 місяців тому +4

    Imagine if they released sub paragon like tomorow and he has to uptade the video

    • @TKRaxzor
      @TKRaxzor  9 місяців тому +1

      Would be happy and sad lol

    • @pedromendonca8859
      @pedromendonca8859 9 місяців тому

      lol u actually guessed it lol

    • @graycatsaderow
      @graycatsaderow 9 місяців тому

      Its gonna be out in like two days

  • @spectrite4533
    @spectrite4533 9 місяців тому

    Also the temple support boost would help more the normal towers but it gets to a point where is too laggy and i feel like paragon lag less than a godboosted tower… except for dart

    • @meinman7591
      @meinman7591 9 місяців тому

      the towers were getting temple support boost, that's what the golden village gave

  • @mrkokonut4620
    @mrkokonut4620 9 місяців тому +1

    I might be dumb and this probably doesn't matter but wasn't the percent calculated actually the percent of damage decrease rather than increase?

  • @ryeetbanana3505
    @ryeetbanana3505 9 місяців тому

    Another banger from raxzor

  • @rhombicosidodecaherdrons8984
    @rhombicosidodecaherdrons8984 9 місяців тому +2

    In previous videos, it was mentioned that extra unnecessary abilities are bad for lategame as they are really hard to use with the low frame rate, would this affect the results of middle path towers? Also Ninja Paragon + 20 shinobi boosted Grandmaster might be outclassed by Ninja Paragon + Paragon power + 20 shinobi boosted bloonjitsu. Does the upgrade from bloonjitsu to grandmaster worth sacrficing paragon power?

    • @TKRaxzor
      @TKRaxzor  9 місяців тому

      I personally don't think any middle path is super worth except ultraboost - maybe pirate lord? Still iffy onp pord. I also believe 20 stack+GM is 100% worth. It might even merit doing less Shinobis for space efficiency. Like maybe even 10 or 15 in place of a temple

  • @stickey3476
    @stickey3476 9 місяців тому +1

    Will say, the ~2% difference from master builder seems scuffed... did u remember to take into account the +10% attack speed per round it gets?

    • @TKRaxzor
      @TKRaxzor  9 місяців тому +1

      That is actually a very fair point, too - I forgot to include that! Probably will make a difference in damage. Great catch!
      However, regardless, sentry champion and ultraboost are too good to pass up anyway for Paragon of Power to even be considered for it.

    • @meinman7591
      @meinman7591 9 місяців тому +1

      also, the extra atk speed per round ends at atk speed cap, so...

    • @meinman7591
      @meinman7591 9 місяців тому

      also, I just noticed you have a bc pfp, based

  • @STNDD
    @STNDD 9 місяців тому

    I didn't realize how cool the thumbnail was I thought that was the actual game
    Did you make these? They are really cool

    • @TKRaxzor
      @TKRaxzor  9 місяців тому +2

      Yeah haha thanks!

  • @theshatteredseas
    @theshatteredseas 9 місяців тому

    Have you considered grand sabo's ability granting every shinobi a lot more damage and stuff? Perhaps grand sabo should be used alongside GMN

    • @TKRaxzor
      @TKRaxzor  9 місяців тому

      Yup! Will be reviewed in future runs

  • @05council73
    @05council73 9 місяців тому

    Are we just gonna ignore how his sniper is named "America's Problem"?

  • @antijokecommenter5003
    @antijokecommenter5003 4 місяці тому

    meanwhile pmfc beating round 200 on #ouch

  • @rotem6033
    @rotem6033 9 місяців тому

    Great video I like your channel

  • @Link9058
    @Link9058 9 місяців тому

    Probably could have tested _both_ magus with abilities and without

  • @Lt_Koro
    @Lt_Koro 9 місяців тому

    ok so without really watching the vid I can tell you exactly why each paragon will either by default get the buff or by default wont.
    Dart: extremly shit. its bad either way. there are no relevant t5s anyways
    Boomer: mid. will get the buff. there are no relevant t5s anyways
    Boat: very good. will get the buff (most of the time). no relevant t5s unless you are playing a challange which restricts space and/or have space problems in general but can fit a flagship (cuz flagship provides 2 medium spots for the price of one)
    Plane: very good. might get the buff. only big plane is really worth it, but it is REALLY worth it. so if your space allows for it you should get it.
    Ninja: very good. wont get the buff. firstly it doesnt need the buff since pretty much all you want from it is the perma grand sabo. secondly grandmaster is a really strong tower, even if you dont use a shinobi army.
    Wizard: good. will get the buff. there are no relevant t5s anyways
    Engi: decent. wont get the buff. UBoost and SChamp exist... do I need to say anything else?!
    edit: I'd be a little careful saying that a small ninja army is worth it. when playing on resort it certainly is, but there you wouldnt build a small one you'd go for a massive one. on logs however you cant really do that at all. but grandmaster is still very good without shinobis

  • @skeptikmavi6743
    @skeptikmavi6743 9 місяців тому

    İ m sorry but I literally skipped the magus perfectus its just not stable and I dont like that paragon I think expepct for testing I used it once

  • @-Woodstock-Lastrussysux
    @-Woodstock-Lastrussysux 9 місяців тому

    Ye

  • @genghiskhan6688
    @genghiskhan6688 9 місяців тому

    Why did Sky Shredder's results varied so much?
    For other towers the results were so consistent that I felt like it was a waste of time to test 20 times in a row instead of just one or two, but this tower specifically had results range from 727 to 939; that's a 20% difference.

    • @TKRaxzor
      @TKRaxzor  9 місяців тому +1

      Yeah that one was a bit strange actually and I tried doing it a bit more consiste try but noticed a variation regardless...
      I believe it might be due to location on when I started the round although I tried to so it all similar (starting at the top of track) other boost in damage I noticed was largely in where sky shredder hovered over. Since I couldn't be 100% accurate (I am not AI) but if the plane was over all 5 BADs at that time it would jump up.
      Honestly could also be a mis test ob my part which I will acknowledge.
      Pertaining to your question on the 1-2 tests versus 20. A larger data set still gives you a better analysis on the numbers. Getting an average as opposed to extreme ends can lead to large % in damage overall

    • @xuansangdotrinh1055
      @xuansangdotrinh1055 9 місяців тому

      This is due to number of Sky Shredder's darts hit per attack.

  • @olivergro7105
    @olivergro7105 3 місяці тому

    You're using the same playlist that mehallic uses

  • @Avaloby108
    @Avaloby108 9 місяців тому

    did your mic quality get worse

    • @TKRaxzor
      @TKRaxzor  9 місяців тому

      Sorry I'm still aiming on getting a new mic - this ones a bit all over the place so might be bad on this video

    • @cosmic2591
      @cosmic2591 9 місяців тому

      ​@@TKRaxzorsnowball mics are great for the price from my experience

  • @porkeyminch8044
    @porkeyminch8044 5 місяців тому

    6 minute long intro but didn't explain what Paragon of Power even does 💀