Or... 14 regenerates into the watcher, travels back to logopolis and merges with 4, closing a time loop and finally explaining that mystery. It also explains the bigeneration, two doctors merge at the start of #5's era and split again ten regenerations later. He had the potential to bigenerate at any time after #4, but the toy maker gave it a kick making it a certainty.
Instead of 14 regenerating into watcher, He turns into him naturally like how the master turns into a husky figure in Deadly Assassin and Keeper of traken.
Couldn't 14 simply be the watcher that aided the 4th doctor that explains watchers future knowledge and how the 15th could regenerate without needing to involve Tennant and means that part of his therapy is subconsciously seeing the positive things he's done over the years of his life
Exactly. He still has to regenerate into 15, that hasn't happened yet. When he bigenerated it just summoned a future version of the Doctor. But there's nothing special about that, the Doctor is a time traveller and meets himself regularly. The process of him becoming 15 still needs to happen. It's basically just a Two Doctors story, except this time we've witnessed it from the perspective of the past Doctor meeting his future self rather than the other way round!
I like this idea. Alternatively, have 14 come realise his time is ending and become the original Watcher, travel back and merge with 4. This would explain the Watcher's foreknowledge. It would also mean he becomes his own father-in-law, but best not to think about that too much.
He already is in series 4 there is an episode where he gets cloned and has a daughter which is he's wife and the 5th doctors actor I forgetbhes names daughter also he played the same character as he's father in law anyway
@Pat12379 doctor 4, not series 4. I am aware of "the Doctor's Daughter". I am aware that Georgia Tennant (nee Moffett) is the daughter of Peter Davison, and the wife of David Tennant. That was the joke: if 14 (Tennant) travelled back as the Watcher and merged with the regenerating 4 (T Baker), then he would become 5 (Davison) - he would become his own father-in-law. Now the joke is dead.
Personally I feel like having the bigeneration gives us a perfect way to explain the Curator, the Valeyard and the Watcher without having to have 14 come into any future renegeneations. Like 14 has his adventures, reaches the end of his life span and decides to continue revisiting old faces thereby becoming the Curator, but being born of Bigeneration something isn't quite right and his life spans get shorter and he loses something of himself resulting in him going renegade and becoming the Valeyard and then when the Vlaeyard meets his end things are so wrong and off he becomes the weird mummy type creature that is the Watcher. And seeing himself become that it finally makes sense and he knows what needs to happen and he crosses his own timeline and helps the 4th regenerate in the process merging back into him and ending the bigenerated doctors existence
Ya beat me to it. That was nearly exactly what I was going to say. It's also sort of a nod to the River Song "inverse aging" bit that got thrown into the "Let's Kill Hitler" episode to explain why she was younger when she first met Tennant in The Library but in this case, it's The Doctor being older when he was seen in earlier episodes.
Add another one in there, The Fugitive Doctor's timeline. Yes, Ruth said she didn't know 13 and vice versa but "Rule number one: The Doctor lies" even to themselves at times.
I said the same thing when we first saw the bigeneration, 14 carries on with the same face (and eventual darkness) of 10, creating the perfect setup for the Valeyard. If 14's regeneration counter is dangerously low due to 15 getting the bulk (if not the entirety) of the remaining (8?) regenerations, it would explain his desperation to get back what he feels is his. Having 14's future include the Curator and the Watcher as well, absolutely brilliant, and a good sequencing for it as well.
My head cannon is that the 14th doctor time traveled to bakers era for nostalgia purposes and somehow gets injured and has to regenerate. Only now he has difficulty regenerating due to the bigeneration making him the watcher. He then seeks out himself to take some regenerative energy by merging with the 4th doctor. He then uses that regenerative energy to steal the 4th doctor’s face letting him regenerate into the curator
@@Drew_Wolf06I believe the timeless child is in both ways of cannon and Not Cannon how why? Well it seems to be out of place since the Doctor is actually and has always been a timelord so what happened? Well when David Tennant and The Toy maker played their little card game He said He made a jigsaw out of his life. Which backs it up the Toy maker messed with the Doctors timeline and I can go even further if you want to point the obvious. And I don't think it's a stretch EVERYONE HATED THE IDEA of the timeless child and there's no other person and he defended the master in his gold tooth really shows who's more powerful and at the end when that woman picked up that gold tooth it reminded me of that scene we're David Tennants master soul or something remained in his engangment ring we're he was precedent. And his wife / gf brought him back to life in finish buisness. It reminded me of that which I see it as a reference on what is coming next! But whatever. I am getting side tracked. Back to the Toy maker. No other person can make a jigsaw out of the Doctor's life but him. Me using his own words but with more straight forward explaining and fun little hints abd yes the doctor did banish him from existence but that doesn't mean he can stop existing in the doctors mind tho (15th) which him being back is still a possibility and the master So Let me know your thoughts down in the comments below and did you like my little Tent talk 👍🏻
If you remember the moment in the 50th when Matt Smith’s 11th Doctor meets Tom Baker as the Curator (a future version of the Doctor) the writers implied that David Tennant’s 14th Doctor at some point in the far future will regenerate (off screen) into the Curator
This would also suit, as both T-Baker and Gatwa are the 4th doctors of their regeneration cycles. Maybe the technobabble could have something to do with that.
@@Geographical_edits I'm guessing they mean that Matt Smith's Doctor was the end of the 12 regen limit, then the Time Lords gave him another round of regenerations, starting from Peter Capaldi. This would make Gatwa the fourth in that cycle.
@@Geographical_edits The classic series established that a Time Lord could only regenerate 12 times. The 11th Doctor was the Doctor's final regeneration. In the 2013 Christmas Special, he explained it all to Clara. How the War Doctor was between Doctors 8 and 9. How 10 had vanity issues and regenerated back into himself (Stolen Earth/Journey's End). So that left 11 at the 13th and final regeneration. But the Time Lords gave the Doctor a new regeneration cycle...and the 11th Doctor Regenerated into the 12th. The 12th Doctor is the 1st of his 2nd cycle. The 13th the 2nd. The 14th the 3rd. The 15th the 4th. Wibbly Wobbly...Timey Wimey.
". . . because of the apocalyptic events surrounding their adventures in Logopolis, the Doctor's new self had overlapped the old, watching and waiting for the moment of union." Christopher H. Bidmead, Castrovalva.
Wait. Does this mean that in 73 yards, the woman is Ruby's watcher, and they merge together to create another version of a younger ruby before the doctor dissappears
@MesserJackII I would like that. Rubys mum been a timelady but used her watch like the Doctor to hide from the time war. Then to protect her daughter that's why she gave her away.
We’ve been drinking from the same fountain - The Watcher is exactly how I’ve been wanting to see the 14th/15th regeneration. Makes ALL the sense to me, then again Keeper of Traken/Logopolis/Castrovalva were the first episodes I watched as a kid in the 80s.
I personally think that 14 just dying out at the end of his life would actually be seriously emotional, like a bit of closure, BUT only if we actually see it AND only at the time that David Tennant actually decides to hang up the blue suit...
I prefer the idea that 14 becomes 15 out of the bigeneration personally doesn’t bother me that much and 15 said he’s fine because 14 fixes himself so to me that’s what was implied.
What I love most of the 14/15 bigeneration is that David said that was the first scene they shot together and it was "Hi, nice to meet you. Now let's get extremely close!"
I always saw the Watcher as the Doctor's Cho Je like the KanPo Rinpoche - Cho Je pairing the Third Doctor encountered. Cho Je helped Three Become Four and the Watcher was essentially a less well-defined version of the Fifth Doctor before merging. As long as the mummified watcher doesn't reappear in a future episode and the Doctor asks "Are You My Mummy?" again it should be okay. I want Fourteen to degenerate into Matt Smith as the Valeyard who travels back in Time to the dark times and becomes the first incarnation of the Master.
Recall the 3rd Doctor’s final story Planet of the Spiders, K’anpo and Cho-ji. Cho-ji is actually K’anpo all along. remember he psychically projects in to give the third doctor’s regeneration a push. this is yet another example of watcher/bigeneration we should consider.
I don’t think he will regenerate. I genuinely think he’ll simply grow old & choose to die, peacefully, surrounded by the family he loves so much, and with a calm, contented smile on his face he’ll whisper, _”time to go.”_ 🥰❤️
Why not have the 14th doctor continue his retirement by regenerating into another unexplained doctor appearance: The Curator from The Day of the Doctor.
This would mean that RTD actually thinks about stuff and wants it to make sense. Which might have been true in RTD1, where he often included a lot of technobabble to explain pretty much anything (and even if it didn't make THAT MUCH sense, it made enough sense not to break the immersion). But now as season 1 showed, he has just given up on ever explaining anything. He just throws stuff at the wall and waits what sticks. Which to be fair after Chibnall's mess, it might be hard to care about details making sense. But he could still at least pretend to care.
Nah. The 14th Doctor needs to regenerate into the Curator. And the Curator needs to regenerate into (an early version of) the Valeyard. And they have to do it fast, as long as they have those actors available.
somewhere between his Twelfth and final regeneration...
2 дні тому+1
I don't suppose Tom Baker will be available for anything, however long he's alive, unless a miracle de-aging agent is offered to the market in the very near future. Besides, it really doesn't matter, if needed a substitute actor may be found, just like David Bradley, the same is true for the valeyard or any other incarnation / alternate version of the doctor, along with the advancements of the CGI technology, although that might increase the production expenses.
Having Doctors merge back would be undercutting Fifteen's role. He's a real Doctor, not some half of them. There's just two of them and they should stay as two, given we need a Curator.
I LOVE IT!!! This would imply that Doctors 1, 2, or 3 possibly bi-generated too- or not. But this is a good way to do evening you stated. 15 is dying, but no regeneration is happening. It’s stalled as Doctor 3, Pertwee’s, did. Then bam! Here’s 14 as another watcher to become the catalyst for regeneration. BRILLIANT!❤ And yes, the while episode, he stays covered until the end until the grand moment.
I imagined that (if in the Pantheon there is a goddess of time) events would just end up slowly bringing 14 & 15 back together. And Ncuti's final episode could be a multi doctor special that in the end does merge them back together for 15 to become 16
The 14th Doctor had retired to a life of relaxation with his best friend and newfound family. But he was still a Time Lord after all and his new family was not. As the years passed, Donna and then young Rose grew old and withered, and the Doctor stayed young. He knew it was inevitable; that the forces of time which he had long fought against would take his family from him. He tried to bend the rules of time to extend their lives, and when they had finally succumbed to old age he sought to break the rules of time to bring them back. He grew angry at the forces of time and strove to become their master. He became the Lord of Time. He became...the Valeyard.
I actually imagined the entire reason he could bigenerate was because he had already merged with the watcher, whatever it was, all those years ago, and now the merge became undone. At this point ofcourse the watcher had been the Doctor for longer than the Doctor had been the Doctor (at the point of the original merge), or at the very least he had been the doctor we were watching for longer than the doctor we watched without the watcher (I'm making this sound way too complicated). Now the question is, which half of the bigeneration is the Doctor and which half is the watcher, not that it matters too much, as the watcher is as much the Doctor by this point as the Doctor is the Doctor. Personally I also have the fan theory that the watcher is in fact the Timeless Child (body and probably mind badly damaged after years of experiments). Trusting the Doctor as the only Gallifreyan who could help them (after watching him for a while.) The Doctor just "mistook" the watcher for a future incarnation. That explains how the Doctor could be the Timeless Child without retconning his past. But that's probably a bit too much of a fan theory to actually become reality.
I would have David Tennant dressed in a white suit and maybe have a little glow to him, similar to what you said but he doesn’t say anything, 15 is just about to regenerate but it’s not happening and then, 14, white suit slightly glowing appears and they merge and then 16 comes out
I like this idea but could we not plug a second plot issue at the same time? The Tom Baker Curator be the watcher. 14th doctor ages into the curator and then merge as a last Tom Baker watcher scene. This solves Legopolis, the curator, 14th doctor and bigeneration also giving a rounded tom baker is a watcher!
I think it's implied that 14 will regenerate into 15 but not in the way you said. 15 said he's already had time to emotionally heal from 14, so it's clear that he bigenerated into a future version of 15. But the real regeneration that maintains timeline continuity still needs to happen. I've been making this case for a while but while writing this I suddenly realised, there's absolutely nothing special or weird about bigeneraration at all. The Doctor meets himself all the time through time travel. The only thing is this time we've witnessed it from the perspective of the past Doctor meeting his future self rather than the other way round! When you realise that it's just a multi-Doctor story then you see there isn't really anything complicated to have to resolve. Given what's said in the script I don't think there's any possible alternative that makes any sense. Unfortunately though I don't trust RTD to make sense or stay consistent with his own lore building so it probably won't happen this way.
I think 14 should just become the Valeyard… that was my hope for Season 1-it would be the ultimate twist! We see David Tennant back but learn that he isn’t the Doctor we love, he’s the villain of the story
There are some pretty great ideas in the comments involving The Curator, Valeyard and Watcher that I'd like to see! The alternative I figured they'd go with is David Tennant regenerating and instead of becoming another person, the energy travels through the vortex to whoever the current Doctor is at the time, and the problem of Ncuti having the memories that were bestowed onto a future version can easily be explained away by wibbly wobbly timey wimey regenerationy stuff. (The Doctor's mentioned how he can literally feel time on multiple occasions and other things like how Time Lords immediately recognise eachother, so it's not too much of a stretch). Or they bring 14 back for a crossover episode with 15, have him regenerate during the episode and channel the energy into 15, metacrisis style. But personally, I'd prefer it if they bring David Tennant back in his 80's to die happily of old age and do it the vortexy timey wimey way 😅
I have thought since the bi-generation scene happened that this was something to do with a new Watcher. I think the one for Tom Baker's Doctor was more like a shadow of a possible future regeneration.
Honestly if 14 were the end of his own cycle I think I’d be ok with that. I’m currently thinking it might stunt the future of the bigeneration concept, so perhaps not. Though I think it’d be interesting for bigenerated timelords to have ‘exhaustion’ as a viable endpoint; since superstition, and therefore synonymous logic , can be implemented as canon.
14 finds out how 15 dies. Travels back in time. As he approaches the time 15 dies, 14 fades and becomes pale until the point they merge and regenerate.
Make 14 become the watcher?! Timey Wimey craziness. You had me all the way up until 4:00. Why not just close the 14th Doctor loop by making him age out into the watcher… looping back to the 4th and 14th Doctor merging to bring the 5th Doctor to be would honestly be perfect! 14 jumping back into himself to complete the cycle I think is the best solution so that 14 doesn’t undercut Ncuti’s Doctor anymore. I love David but it had divided the fan base a lot already and including him in both the start and end of Gatwa’s run would divide it even further and be overkill. 15 should definitely have a normal regeneration where the focus is on him and only him. Leading new who back into classic Who would be a fun way to entice the new fans to watch classic, seems like this is what the new “season 1” is trying to achieve with the Sutekh finale.
I still like the idea of 14 having residual regeneration energy with turns then into The Valeyard (played by Russell E. Grant) who is thr big bad if series 3. They have remerge by regenerating together in order for 16 to be possible. That ties up the bigeneration, the 14 probablem, the random appearance of REG hologram in the last series, and the whole Trial of a TimeLord story as well.
How can they fix it? By resetting back to 12 going into 13 and revealing everything post-Capaldi was a mad fever dream from 12 going on a mad sesh out of grief. Problems solved
This is honestly a really plausible theory and I honestly wouldn’t be mad if this is what ends up happening, although there is one thing that would probably be kind of sad to think about; what would happen to 14’s TARDIS in this scenario? Considering that 14’s TARDIS is technically the original one would she just…wither away and die?
To have them connect together in the end to form 16th Doctor is pretty neat idea, but I feel like they will park 14th so Tennant can occasionally jump in and out to the role for the forseeable future. If there will be 70th anniversary then Tennant can be 14th Doctor and looking ten years older won't be an issue.
If you remember in 50th anniversary Capaldi's doctor (12th) was summoned, but none of the previous doctors were aware that he came (the war council said "all 13). 11th said he went to trezalore and he believed it was his final resting place. So ..... ( spoilers) The 14th doctor is going to be the one who summons 12th. The events of end of time happened at the same time as the 50th Galifrey was timelocked for the entire time EXCEPT for the couple of minutes when it " returned" to earths orbit The reason the 11th/12th doctor were able to appear in the shed was because Galifrey was outside the timelock However when they sent the message to summon all their old version the temporal coordinate would be to the timelocked moment. The tardis would fail to come creating a paradox event which is why all the old enemies are comming back (10th speech about all the things that would come back with the timelords) The 14th has both and old face which 12th would recognize and knowledge of the correct temporal cordinates to goto (earth orbit)
I like this as a little explanation of the Watcher. I feel like it could also tie up some stuff involving the Ruth doctor. Perhaps a previous incarnation of the doctor bi-generated (prior to Hartnell, or, who knows, canonise the season 6B theory via bi-generation). That version of the doctor regenerates one or more times, at one point into Ruth, at the end to the Watcher to merge with Baker.
Canonising 6B would work well. The theory is based on 2 undergoing a forced regeneration we never see. What if the forced regeneration went wrong because the time lords refused his request to pull his arms and he ended up falling unconscious. They go to drag him out of the room and splits him into Two and Three. They exile three as promised, none the wiser, but don't know what to do with the remaining Two. They cover it up and keep it hush hush, hence why bi-generation is only "a myth". Hell, it could even explain how "The Division" got its name!
Fantasic idea!!! You also wouldn't need to use it for the 15ths dr's regeneration. in fact it's almost better that he doesn't. If the 14th was left to regenerate that could work to explain the valiard and the the valiard could regenerate into something that then becomes the watcher to atone for his sins.
There's another example regarding the 3-4 regeneration. Another timelord has a servant who's actually an echo of his next regeneration, and I figured The Watcher and 15 are similar phenomenons in this regard. For the most part we've only seen the Doctor renegerate, so weird non-linear wrinkles like this could be semi-regular occurances across Timelords.
My theory is that bi-generation a fluke. I think that in the end, they will find that they are two sides of the same coin and can't exist without the other. Ellie has mentioned how more emotional 15 is, and I also recall her mentioning 15 has lost his assertiveness...the confidence...the "take charge" spirit that all versions of The Doctor had. Ellie said that 15 was afraid...stunned in fright. "The Doctor doesn't get scared," she said. 14 is "The Power Doctor"...15 is The Emotional/Carefree Doctor. I think it may go in the direction that they will discover that each is incomplete without the other and will have to find a way to merge back together again. I don't know how it could be explained about the Toymaker's beam did something to The Doctor's physiological state that caused the regeneration to go wonky. Donna will know that something is off with 14. Donna will be the one to bring it to both Doctors and tell them they need to re-fuse themselves. That's my prediction. 😁
My mind must be too in the gutter, because that opening line had me in a full belly-laugh. Pulling one Doctor out of another Doctor sounds like something Captain Jack would think about.
a neat and simple solution would be for the 14th doctor to become the watcher to go back and aid the 4th doctors regeneration. if you assume that each subsequent doctor has some kind of trace memories of future events could explain the 7th doctor and 11th doctors vague knowledge of their own future timeline!
There is also the fact that the Curator exists, which is a future version of the doctor, who settled down. The doctor did go back to "one of the old favorites" so it is a possibility
There was that line in the giggle; “we’re doing therapy out of order” or something like that, which makes me think that 14’s regeneration just happened early. Probably due to the confusion and chaos brought on by the toymaker just being there. So my thinking is that 14 will die of old age after taking a long deserved rest being a long term fixture of the noble-temple clan for generations. 14 lays down to rest and his body just disappears. Nice and simple! He just dies when he’s ready
I have always thought that the 14th Doctor "retiring" is a great "Save Game" point for the franchise for the whole Disney transition. If Ncuti did /does not work out - They can always kill him off somehow, and let 14 Regenerate (yet again because 4 times was not enough lol) into "15B" or "16" as a way to Retcon the Disney Era.But then again, If all of the previous Doctors up until that point also Bigenerated, and THEN regenerated, then the universe must be absolutely teeming with versions of the Doctor.
I'm glad I'm not the only person who immediately thought back to the Watcher (and the Valeyard). My money is on them doing a final 14th doctor special where they have Ncuti absorb him to save the day or as a result of the 14th doctors regeneration. Personally I would like to see the 14th doctor regenerate into Tom Baker's Curator character
How about instead of David Tenant's 14 appearing as the 15th Doctor's watcher before merging with 15 so he could regenerate into 16, when 15 dies, he regenerates into a figure wrapped in white bandages before he fades away. The white mummy Doctor could then reappear in Logopolis as Tom Baker's 4th Doctor's Watcher. That would actually be the payoff of a mystery that would date back how many decades by the time David Tenant was ready to regenerate again? They could actually have David Tenant record the Watcher's unheard dialog from Logopolis and have that dialog play over those scenes. That could be a really cool part to include in the 75th Anniversary Special or perhaps the Centennial special. David Tenant would just need to live into his 90s to film his regeneration. Alternatively, he could record that regeneration any time he and the BBC felt like filming it. Not that I don't want David Tenant to live to be over 100 himself.
That is an interesting premise and way to come back to the idea. I've always thought the Watcher thing was cool and Logopolis a strong episode overall.
Wasnt the whole idea for them to basically start a MCU style Whoniverse? So I dont think they should merge any time soon. Also I kinda believe that the 4th Doctor was established to be the 13th Doctor (Brain of Morbius), so the idea of the Watcher felt like a way to extend the life of the Doctor somehow. Also don't forget that in the Big Finish stories, Tom Baker's Curator regenerated into Colin Baker
There is an alternative to The Watcher, the Valeyard (Colin Barker era, trial of a timelord). The interesting thing about this notion is that the trial stenographer was also the Regeneration before the Valeyard.
Bi-generation was a result of the Toymaker´s magic. I don´t think it will stay forever. I guess 14 and 15 will re merge and regenerate into a new Doctor...
Interesting theory. The Watcher was a cool device. At the time it reminded me of Planet of the Spiders with the dual characters K'Anpo and Cho-Je. One is a temporal/Psychic projection of the other. While the elder Time Lord remained in isolation his projection roamed freely. A concept that could be adopted easily in modern Who. Personally I think the whole Bigeneration was nonsense and will come back to bite the series at a later time. Did it look cool on screen? Absolutely. The ramifications of all the other Doctors is just ludicrous. I suppose we'll see. Great video Ellie. Cheers from Canada
Thing is that Ncuti told us kind of what's kind of going on. He was meant to take time off and work out his accumulated trauma so 15 isn't burdened with them. Trouble is that if anything the always crying Disney Doctor is a bit like, although not as bad, the time Kirk got split in two. So if they wanted a mild course correction they could have the re-merging take place on Disney but leave wiggle room for 14 to have had all kinds of adventures before then.
I think that the 15th doctor is his own version of the doctor and doesn't have the connection to his past regeneration but will retain his memories and thoughts of what the doctor stands for , as for the 14th doctor he will have that connection to his past self's due to him keep regenerating into different versions wich makes he or she better than previously but they can come back through sub conscious thinking without him or her even knowing. And I think that's what is good, because they can now bi generate
This would have been a great idea IF you had not revealed it publicly so now there is zero chance that it will be done. BUT! If this is your application to join the Doctor Who writing staff... then go for it Ellie, we're all with you!
I still say it’s simpler than we’re making it. Eventually the 14th doctor will fall and regenerate into the beginning of the 15th doctor’s regeneration a quick montage of the 15th doctor getting his sea legs and doing some historical stuff then he says “Oh, it’s time” and physically transports to the bigeneration.
Honestly i wasn't a fan of the Bi-generation. Think it felt just mashed together. But this sounds like a good way to put them both to bed, and carry on with the next doctor.
Could Tennant be the watcher? He's the one who meets the 4th Doctor as he's about to regenerate. Tennant has seen the 5th Doctor as the 10th Doctor, and would also be someone who knows the future and could run the Tardis. I know it makes Tennant a very big character in the whonive, but things would be nicely tied up.
I think.this is the most rational idea, but I feel 14 needs more than a 1 scene cameo. We need to see the impact or 14 realising that he's come full circle and have 14 invert 10's last words ("I don't want to go" become "time to go")
We already know that Time Lords can be divided into multiple selves by the authorities on Gallifrey -- that's what happened to the increasingly inaccurately-named Second Doctor, played by Patrick Troughton. The Time Lords divided the Doctor into two selves, one continuing to act as an agent of Gallifrey who continued as the Troughton Doctor, and another who reformed into Jon Pertwee's Doctor. The Doctor's TARDIS was split as well, and, not being as fully grown and experienced as it became in the newer series, only one version had fully developed time travel abilities -- exactly as the Time Lords intended, as they wanted the Doctor stranded on Earth. Of course, they eventually gave that power back to the earthbound TARDIS. The question, though, is what happened to the Troughton Doctor? Sometime after meeting the Colin Baker Doctor, Troughton's Doctor stopped traveling via TARDIS. It's entirely possible that he ticked off the Time Lords and had his TARDIS' dematerialisation circuit removed and transferred to the Pertwee Doctor. At this point, lacking a TARDIS to travel, the Troughton Doctor did something with the remainder of his TARDIS that changed him into what was no longer the Doctor . . . merely the Watcher. Having accessed knowledge hidden within his now-defunct TARDIS, he knew that the Doctor and he were separated segments of the timestream of the same Time Lord. He moved to repair the timeline by rejoining his other self, making the Doctor whole. Bi-regeneration was theoretical because it was possible, but usually only happened as a judicial action by the Time Lords. (Most of the times that the Doctor says something is "impossible," what he really means is that it's entirely possible, only highly unethical and shouldn't be done.) Indeed, having been bi-regenerated before, in addition to having crossed their own timestream several times, been charged with additional regeneration energy, and rediscovered their non-Gallifreyan origin, the Doctor was fully prepared to bi-regenerate when needed. Not only that, but having two versions of the Doctor progressing forward simultaneously is a big "get out of jail free" card for the series, as the Doctor could fully die and be repaired by rejoining the other Doctor to make a new whole. It's possible that the TARDIS could be restored from destruction the same way. The big question now is this: what happened to the other three versions of the Troughton Doctor that the Time Lords created? Are any of them still employed as Gallifreyan agents? Did they die in the Time War? Is one of them the Master? Did one of them go back and meet Susan? They could be anyone now. Probably the Rani; it's always the Rani. (All of the above is pulled entirely from my sitting place, and is meant as nothing more than fun speculation.)
That'd be a hard pass for me. The whole idea of the Watcher is that they're meant to represent the future of their Time Lords, having 14 being 15's Watcher would imply that 15 would become 14/David Tennant again. I'd much rather have 14 either not appearing ever again (cause we've -or at least I- had more than enough different David Tennant in DW) or the show handwaving the idea that 14 was pulled back off screen to The Giggle and became 15. 14 becoming either The Valeyard (people already thought that from the Meta Crisis, ugh) or the Curator would undermine the mystery surrounding these beings IMO. 14 being unable to regenerate at all would be much more neat. He exists, kuddos, his TARDIS is linked to 15's which means 15 gets all the info of 14's travels and adventures, and when 14 dies, poof, he's gone. Or like, make 14 die on Trenzalore or become Merlin, or become the Relic, or heck, even The Other, but let him not be in the future.
Nay, thank you. Besides we saw the 14th Doctor at the end of The Day of the Doctor when he had regenerated to the form the elderly 4th Doctor who was the curator of the museum interacting with his younger self. Proving that his adventures days are well behind him.
I think 14 travels until somewhere 15 regenerates. When 15 regenerates, 14 becomes 15 version 2, and that version of the Doctor is always one incarnation behind the current Doctor.
RTD has stated he thinks bigeneration happens all the time. However, why not just close the loop? The 14th is The Watcher and finds himself forced to save the 4th. 15 should regenerate into 16. But, maybe do it as a Christmas special. 15 keeps going on.
Or...how about this, the 14th Doctor regenerates into the Valeyard, goes back along his timeline to cause mayhem, then realizes the error of his ways, and goes on a spiritual journey with himself, exploring the Guardians of the Edge concept a bit further, unlocks the ability to regenerate back into previously used versions of himself/herself at will, and becomes the Curator? How's that sound?
Love the idea of the watcher making a return but I don't understand why the watcher would be David Tennant in this context. Surely it would, if anyone, be the doctor Ncuti regenerates into. I don't remember Jon Pertwee turning up for Tom Baker's regeneration, for example. I don't personally need an answer to the question of what happens to the fourteenth doctor but that's more of a personal taste thing I guess.
HI I think if Tenants Doctors was kept around, just n case Ncuti Gatwa decides to leave, and the 15th Doctors regenerates and the 15th Regeneration starts to Fail ??
Bi-generation is a bit of a mixed bag. I believe RTD stated that, as of 14’s bi-generation into 15, every previous Doctor had also bi-generated. I think this was done, so previous actors could reprise their roles as the Doctor, and the fact that they had aged could be hand-waved away due to this. A clever writer would go on to say that, once the Doctor regenerates, their past self loses the ability to ever regenerate again, and carries on with their life, until they die of old age, or misadventure. Once they pass away, they are removed from the time stream, back to the point at which they bi-generated. This allows actors to reprise their roles, and explains why they are never in the show, if the actor passes away. Nice. However… does this only apply to just the “Doctor” personas of the character. What about all those regenerations that happened, prior to the Doctor regenerating into William Hartnell’s Doctor? In which case, there is a plethora of bi-generated beings out there. Unless, of course, something happened to the Doctor, prior to regenerating into Hartnell’s Doctor. Perhaps they were genetically altered into a pure Time Lord, from whatever species the Doctor actually is, so bi-generation only goes back as far as the First Doctor? Or, perhaps the Doctor is all of the Time Lords? Each bi-generation retains the ability to regenerate, but forgets their past self, not knowing they are actually the Doctor. Because of the Doctor’s love of what he believes to be his home, Gallifrey, they all unconsciously have a desire to go there (or remain there, if that is where they bi-generated). Yes, there are plenty of holes in this theory. But there are plenty of holes in the canon around bi-generation, as well. But it is a fun “What if…?” Personally, I think finding the Timeless Child started a causality loop. The Timeless Child is the original Time Lord, found offworld by a Gallifreyan, who brings her back to Gallifrey, whose presence results in the creation of the Time Lords. Who find the Timeless Child offworld, bring her back to Gallifrey, etc, etc… It’s a big multiverse. Anything can happen. Cheers,
Oh I love this idea, it's much more positive scenario than 14 becoming The Valyard...which if they don't do this, I think they have to make 14 the valyard
The whole reason the regeneration was done this way was keep David around, the ratings took a massive tumble with the last two Doctors and David was brought back to give the show a ratings boost.
First have the 14th regenerate into an older 4th to meet the 11th then have him go back again to fix some timey-wimy things before rejoining himself fixing multiple loose ends.
I really like this idea, but I think they need to keep it in their back pocket for a few doctors. It will be so much more powerful to have the 14th Doctor show up to help the 17th or 18th Doctor. Let people forget 14 is out there for a while, then bring him back, or don't. may just say Screw Canon and have the 14th Doctor regenerate into the 1st Master.
Or...
14 regenerates into the watcher, travels back to logopolis and merges with 4, closing a time loop and finally explaining that mystery.
It also explains the bigeneration, two doctors merge at the start of #5's era and split again ten regenerations later. He had the potential to bigenerate at any time after #4, but the toy maker gave it a kick making it a certainty.
He could also be the Curator, potentially even the Valeyard, or the Fugitive.
That was my thought exactly makes more sense
Instead of 14 regenerating into watcher, He turns into him naturally like how the master turns into a husky figure in Deadly Assassin and Keeper of traken.
I thought the same thing, this would end this loop perfectly
This seems kind of logical.. would go for this theory.
Couldn't 14 simply be the watcher that aided the 4th doctor that explains watchers future knowledge and how the 15th could regenerate without needing to involve Tennant and means that part of his therapy is subconsciously seeing the positive things he's done over the years of his life
Exactly. He still has to regenerate into 15, that hasn't happened yet. When he bigenerated it just summoned a future version of the Doctor. But there's nothing special about that, the Doctor is a time traveller and meets himself regularly. The process of him becoming 15 still needs to happen. It's basically just a Two Doctors story, except this time we've witnessed it from the perspective of the past Doctor meeting his future self rather than the other way round!
That would make a really good comic mini series
I like this idea.
Alternatively, have 14 come realise his time is ending and become the original Watcher, travel back and merge with 4. This would explain the Watcher's foreknowledge. It would also mean he becomes his own father-in-law, but best not to think about that too much.
He already is in series 4 there is an episode where he gets cloned and has a daughter which is he's wife and the 5th doctors actor I forgetbhes names daughter also he played the same character as he's father in law anyway
@Pat12379 doctor 4, not series 4. I am aware of "the Doctor's Daughter". I am aware that Georgia Tennant (nee Moffett) is the daughter of Peter Davison, and the wife of David Tennant.
That was the joke: if 14 (Tennant) travelled back as the Watcher and merged with the regenerating 4 (T Baker), then he would become 5 (Davison) - he would become his own father-in-law.
Now the joke is dead.
@bentilley5412 I know the joke clearly you are braindead
@@bentilley5412not really (dead), I still laughed at it, and the other guy's overexposition didn't take away anything 😁
@@bentilley5412 i think the point is that 14 doesn’t need to do any of that for the joke to happen.
It already did when the doctor’s daughter aired.
Personally I feel like having the bigeneration gives us a perfect way to explain the Curator, the Valeyard and the Watcher without having to have 14 come into any future renegeneations.
Like 14 has his adventures, reaches the end of his life span and decides to continue revisiting old faces thereby becoming the Curator, but being born of Bigeneration something isn't quite right and his life spans get shorter and he loses something of himself resulting in him going renegade and becoming the Valeyard and then when the Vlaeyard meets his end things are so wrong and off he becomes the weird mummy type creature that is the Watcher.
And seeing himself become that it finally makes sense and he knows what needs to happen and he crosses his own timeline and helps the 4th regenerate in the process merging back into him and ending the bigenerated doctors existence
That would be cool and that would explain all of it
Ya beat me to it. That was nearly exactly what I was going to say. It's also sort of a nod to the River Song "inverse aging" bit that got thrown into the "Let's Kill Hitler" episode to explain why she was younger when she first met Tennant in The Library but in this case, it's The Doctor being older when he was seen in earlier episodes.
Add another one in there, The Fugitive Doctor's timeline. Yes, Ruth said she didn't know 13 and vice versa but "Rule number one: The Doctor lies" even to themselves at times.
Yea but then what about the other bigens? RTD said that they made every Doctor bigenerate canonically going back to the First Doctor 🧐
I said the same thing when we first saw the bigeneration, 14 carries on with the same face (and eventual darkness) of 10, creating the perfect setup for the Valeyard. If 14's regeneration counter is dangerously low due to 15 getting the bulk (if not the entirety) of the remaining (8?) regenerations, it would explain his desperation to get back what he feels is his. Having 14's future include the Curator and the Watcher as well, absolutely brilliant, and a good sequencing for it as well.
My head cannon is that the 14th doctor time traveled to bakers era for nostalgia purposes and somehow gets injured and has to regenerate. Only now he has difficulty regenerating due to the bigeneration making him the watcher. He then seeks out himself to take some regenerative energy by merging with the 4th doctor. He then uses that regenerative energy to steal the 4th doctor’s face letting him regenerate into the curator
This actually could make sense in a way
That’s clever
@@Drew_Wolf06I believe the timeless child is in both ways of cannon and Not Cannon how why? Well it seems to be out of place since the Doctor is actually and has always been a timelord so what happened? Well when David Tennant and The Toy maker played their little card game He said He made a jigsaw out of his life. Which backs it up the Toy maker messed with the Doctors timeline and I can go even further if you want to point the obvious. And I don't think it's a stretch EVERYONE HATED THE IDEA of the timeless child and there's no other person and he defended the master in his gold tooth really shows who's more powerful and at the end when that woman picked up that gold tooth it reminded me of that scene we're David Tennants master soul or something remained in his engangment ring we're he was precedent. And his wife / gf brought him back to life in finish buisness. It reminded me of that which I see it as a reference on what is coming next! But whatever. I am getting side tracked. Back to the Toy maker. No other person can make a jigsaw out of the Doctor's life but him. Me using his own words but with more straight forward explaining and fun little hints abd yes the doctor did banish him from existence but that doesn't mean he can stop existing in the doctors mind tho (15th) which him being back is still a possibility and the master So Let me know your thoughts down in the comments below and did you like my little Tent talk 👍🏻
If you remember the moment in the 50th when Matt Smith’s 11th Doctor meets Tom Baker as the Curator (a future version of the Doctor) the writers implied that David Tennant’s 14th Doctor at some point in the far future will regenerate (off screen) into the Curator
14 wasn't rgeb a thing yet how did they
It's something they left open ended so that in the future (now) they could just tie it in.
Dang. I was going to say it. It's precisely what would happen since he already said he'd retire and become a curator.
my brother an i were thinking that he becomes the Curator as well
Yes that is my opinion too.
This would also suit, as both T-Baker and Gatwa are the 4th doctors of their regeneration cycles. Maybe the technobabble could have something to do with that.
What do you mean by this
@@Geographical_edits I'm guessing they mean that Matt Smith's Doctor was the end of the 12 regen limit, then the Time Lords gave him another round of regenerations, starting from Peter Capaldi. This would make Gatwa the fourth in that cycle.
@@Geographical_edits The classic series established that a Time Lord could only regenerate 12 times. The 11th Doctor was the Doctor's final regeneration. In the 2013 Christmas Special, he explained it all to Clara. How the War Doctor was between Doctors 8 and 9. How 10 had vanity issues and regenerated back into himself (Stolen Earth/Journey's End). So that left 11 at the 13th and final regeneration. But the Time Lords gave the Doctor a new regeneration cycle...and the 11th Doctor Regenerated into the 12th. The 12th Doctor is the 1st of his 2nd cycle. The 13th the 2nd. The 14th the 3rd. The 15th the 4th. Wibbly Wobbly...Timey Wimey.
1st Regen Cycle
1. Hartnel
2. Troutan
3. Pertwe
4. T-Baker (Has a watcher)
2nd Regen Cycle
1. Capaldi
2. Whittaker
3. Tennant
4. Gatwa (Has a watcher)
Ok I read the technobabble as technoblade, now that I’ve re read this it makes so much more sense
I can see that working. I always assumed that the watcher of Logopolis was an alternate version of the fifth Doctor though.
". . . because of the apocalyptic events surrounding their adventures in Logopolis, the Doctor's new self had overlapped the old, watching and waiting for the moment of union." Christopher H. Bidmead, Castrovalva.
Or maybe the 14th doctor ages and goes back in time to be the original watcher (thus explaining the knowledge of future events) 🤔
I LIKE this!! Then it explains bi-generation as well, since he already had 2 Doctors inside him! That's my headcannon now
Okay, we'll say it.
WIBBLY-WOBBLY TIMEY-WIMEY
Wait. Does this mean that in 73 yards, the woman is Ruby's watcher, and they merge together to create another version of a younger ruby before the doctor dissappears
No I think watchers are just time lords
@@Pat12379 Maybe we will have "All was a lie" - Moment in the next season and Ruby is a timelady. :D
@@MesserJackII Isn't Clara a timelady technically? She has her own TARDIS
@@ethanch3011no. Just…no.
@MesserJackII
I would like that. Rubys mum been a timelady but used her watch like the Doctor to hide from the time war. Then to protect her daughter that's why she gave her away.
We’ve been drinking from the same fountain - The Watcher is exactly how I’ve been wanting to see the 14th/15th regeneration.
Makes ALL the sense to me, then again Keeper of Traken/Logopolis/Castrovalva were the first episodes I watched as a kid in the 80s.
I personally think that 14 just dying out at the end of his life would actually be seriously emotional, like a bit of closure, BUT only if we actually see it AND only at the time that David Tennant actually decides to hang up the blue suit...
I prefer the idea that 14 becomes 15 out of the bigeneration personally doesn’t bother me that much and 15 said he’s fine because 14 fixes himself so to me that’s what was implied.
But that would still imply that 14 becomes 15 at some point.
@ that’s what I was saying that’s how I saw it.
my head cannon is that 14 can no longer regenerate.
But 15 said they had 14's memories.
It's probably like Ellie said, and as 14 regenerates, he almost gets pulled back in time to the moment of the bi generation.
I assumed that was cannon.
Same here. Purely mortal.
@@TheBS1000*he
What I love most of the 14/15 bigeneration is that David said that was the first scene they shot together and it was "Hi, nice to meet you. Now let's get extremely close!"
Rock paper scissors Spock on who gets to keep the pants!
I always saw the Watcher as the Doctor's Cho Je like the KanPo Rinpoche - Cho Je pairing the Third Doctor encountered. Cho Je helped Three Become Four and the Watcher was essentially a less well-defined version of the Fifth Doctor before merging.
As long as the mummified watcher doesn't reappear in a future episode and the Doctor asks "Are You My Mummy?" again it should be okay.
I want Fourteen to degenerate into Matt Smith as the Valeyard who travels back in Time to the dark times and becomes the first incarnation of the Master.
Recall the 3rd Doctor’s final story Planet of the Spiders, K’anpo and Cho-ji. Cho-ji is actually K’anpo all along. remember he psychically projects in to give the third doctor’s regeneration a push.
this is yet another example of watcher/bigeneration we should consider.
Amazing how long I had to scroll to see someone else remember K’anpo! 🤦♂️🖖
I don’t think he will regenerate. I genuinely think he’ll simply grow old & choose to die, peacefully, surrounded by the family he loves so much, and with a calm, contented smile on his face he’ll whisper, _”time to go.”_ 🥰❤️
Why not have the 14th doctor continue his retirement by regenerating into another unexplained doctor appearance: The Curator from The Day of the Doctor.
Very simple fix. Just have Ncuti Gatwa regennerate into David Tentant. I know Russel T. Davies is noting this idea down. You're welcome, everyone
This would mean that RTD actually thinks about stuff and wants it to make sense. Which might have been true in RTD1, where he often included a lot of technobabble to explain pretty much anything (and even if it didn't make THAT MUCH sense, it made enough sense not to break the immersion). But now as season 1 showed, he has just given up on ever explaining anything. He just throws stuff at the wall and waits what sticks.
Which to be fair after Chibnall's mess, it might be hard to care about details making sense. But he could still at least pretend to care.
Nah.
The 14th Doctor needs to regenerate into the Curator.
And the Curator needs to regenerate into (an early version of) the Valeyard.
And they have to do it fast, as long as they have those actors available.
Didn't the valeyyards actor die
@@Pat12379sadly yes he did
somewhere between his Twelfth and final regeneration...
I don't suppose Tom Baker will be available for anything, however long he's alive, unless a miracle de-aging agent is offered to the market in the very near future. Besides, it really doesn't matter, if needed a substitute actor may be found, just like David Bradley, the same is true for the valeyard or any other incarnation / alternate version of the doctor, along with the advancements of the CGI technology, although that might increase the production expenses.
From what I hear, even at the grand age of 90 Tom Baker is still acting. So who knows…who knows.
Having Doctors merge back would be undercutting Fifteen's role. He's a real Doctor, not some half of them. There's just two of them and they should stay as two, given we need a Curator.
I LOVE IT!!! This would imply that Doctors 1, 2, or 3 possibly bi-generated too- or not. But this is a good way to do evening you stated. 15 is dying, but no regeneration is happening. It’s stalled as Doctor 3, Pertwee’s, did. Then bam! Here’s 14 as another watcher to become the catalyst for regeneration. BRILLIANT!❤ And yes, the while episode, he stays covered until the end until the grand moment.
I imagined that (if in the Pantheon there is a goddess of time) events would just end up slowly bringing 14 & 15 back together. And Ncuti's final episode could be a multi doctor special that in the end does merge them back together for 15 to become 16
Tom baker and Ncuti Gatwa are both the 4th doctor in their respective regeneration cycle. If the watcher is used again that could be a factor in play
The 14th Doctor had retired to a life of relaxation with his best friend and newfound family. But he was still a Time Lord after all and his new family was not. As the years passed, Donna and then young Rose grew old and withered, and the Doctor stayed young. He knew it was inevitable; that the forces of time which he had long fought against would take his family from him. He tried to bend the rules of time to extend their lives, and when they had finally succumbed to old age he sought to break the rules of time to bring them back. He grew angry at the forces of time and strove to become their master. He became the Lord of Time. He became...the Valeyard.
I actually imagined the entire reason he could bigenerate was because he had already merged with the watcher, whatever it was, all those years ago, and now the merge became undone. At this point ofcourse the watcher had been the Doctor for longer than the Doctor had been the Doctor (at the point of the original merge), or at the very least he had been the doctor we were watching for longer than the doctor we watched without the watcher (I'm making this sound way too complicated). Now the question is, which half of the bigeneration is the Doctor and which half is the watcher, not that it matters too much, as the watcher is as much the Doctor by this point as the Doctor is the Doctor.
Personally I also have the fan theory that the watcher is in fact the Timeless Child (body and probably mind badly damaged after years of experiments). Trusting the Doctor as the only Gallifreyan who could help them (after watching him for a while.) The Doctor just "mistook" the watcher for a future incarnation. That explains how the Doctor could be the Timeless Child without retconning his past. But that's probably a bit too much of a fan theory to actually become reality.
love your vids helps me keep up to date and i get fun doctor who fact
I would have David Tennant dressed in a white suit and maybe have a little glow to him, similar to what you said but he doesn’t say anything, 15 is just about to regenerate but it’s not happening and then, 14, white suit slightly glowing appears and they merge and then 16 comes out
I like this idea but could we not plug a second plot issue at the same time? The Tom Baker Curator be the watcher. 14th doctor ages into the curator and then merge as a last Tom Baker watcher scene. This solves Legopolis, the curator, 14th doctor and bigeneration also giving a rounded tom baker is a watcher!
I think it's implied that 14 will regenerate into 15 but not in the way you said. 15 said he's already had time to emotionally heal from 14, so it's clear that he bigenerated into a future version of 15. But the real regeneration that maintains timeline continuity still needs to happen.
I've been making this case for a while but while writing this I suddenly realised, there's absolutely nothing special or weird about bigeneraration at all. The Doctor meets himself all the time through time travel. The only thing is this time we've witnessed it from the perspective of the past Doctor meeting his future self rather than the other way round! When you realise that it's just a multi-Doctor story then you see there isn't really anything complicated to have to resolve.
Given what's said in the script I don't think there's any possible alternative that makes any sense. Unfortunately though I don't trust RTD to make sense or stay consistent with his own lore building so it probably won't happen this way.
I think 14 should just become the Valeyard… that was my hope for Season 1-it would be the ultimate twist! We see David Tennant back but learn that he isn’t the Doctor we love, he’s the villain of the story
I really hope Russel watches this channel because this idea is really cool
No. The 3rd Doctor bi-generated into Worzel Gummidge. I'd only just got a 50+ year old head canon, to make sense!
I literally had this same idea. And 14 could say something like “we’re ready to go” as well as “the moment has been prepared for”
There are some pretty great ideas in the comments involving The Curator, Valeyard and Watcher that I'd like to see!
The alternative I figured they'd go with is David Tennant regenerating and instead of becoming another person, the energy travels through the vortex to whoever the current Doctor is at the time, and the problem of Ncuti having the memories that were bestowed onto a future version can easily be explained away by wibbly wobbly timey wimey regenerationy stuff. (The Doctor's mentioned how he can literally feel time on multiple occasions and other things like how Time Lords immediately recognise eachother, so it's not too much of a stretch). Or they bring 14 back for a crossover episode with 15, have him regenerate during the episode and channel the energy into 15, metacrisis style. But personally, I'd prefer it if they bring David Tennant back in his 80's to die happily of old age and do it the vortexy timey wimey way 😅
My head cannon is 14 turns into Scrooge McDuck and goes on adventures with his nephews
I have thought since the bi-generation scene happened that this was something to do with a new Watcher. I think the one for Tom Baker's Doctor was more like a shadow of a possible future regeneration.
Buckling Canon. I love that phrase. That hits the nail on the head
Honestly if 14 were the end of his own cycle I think I’d be ok with that.
I’m currently thinking it might stunt the future of the bigeneration concept, so perhaps not. Though I think it’d be interesting for bigenerated timelords to have ‘exhaustion’ as a viable endpoint; since superstition, and therefore synonymous logic , can be implemented as canon.
14 returning back to the helipad is as neat as Ruby returning back to the fairy circle in 73 Yards.
14 finds out how 15 dies. Travels back in time. As he approaches the time 15 dies, 14 fades and becomes pale until the point they merge and regenerate.
Make 14 become the watcher?! Timey Wimey craziness.
You had me all the way up until 4:00. Why not just close the 14th Doctor loop by making him age out into the watcher… looping back to the 4th and 14th Doctor merging to bring the 5th Doctor to be would honestly be perfect! 14 jumping back into himself to complete the cycle I think is the best solution so that 14 doesn’t undercut Ncuti’s Doctor anymore. I love David but it had divided the fan base a lot already and including him in both the start and end of Gatwa’s run would divide it even further and be overkill.
15 should definitely have a normal regeneration where the focus is on him and only him.
Leading new who back into classic Who would be a fun way to entice the new fans to watch classic, seems like this is what the new “season 1” is trying to achieve with the Sutekh finale.
I still like the idea of 14 having residual regeneration energy with turns then into The Valeyard (played by Russell E. Grant) who is thr big bad if series 3. They have remerge by regenerating together in order for 16 to be possible.
That ties up the bigeneration, the 14 probablem, the random appearance of REG hologram in the last series, and the whole Trial of a TimeLord story as well.
How can they fix it? By resetting back to 12 going into 13 and revealing everything post-Capaldi was a mad fever dream from 12 going on a mad sesh out of grief. Problems solved
This is honestly a really plausible theory and I honestly wouldn’t be mad if this is what ends up happening, although there is one thing that would probably be kind of sad to think about; what would happen to 14’s TARDIS in this scenario? Considering that 14’s TARDIS is technically the original one would she just…wither away and die?
It’s interesting that the Watcher in Logopolis is usually seen from a long distance away. Maybe about… 73 Yards?
It's not like Doctor Who hasn't ever been very very silly before
To have them connect together in the end to form 16th Doctor is pretty neat idea, but I feel like they will park 14th so Tennant can occasionally jump in and out to the role for the forseeable future. If there will be 70th anniversary then Tennant can be 14th Doctor and looking ten years older won't be an issue.
If you remember in 50th anniversary Capaldi's doctor (12th) was summoned, but none of the previous doctors were aware that he came (the war council said "all 13). 11th said he went to trezalore and he believed it was his final resting place.
So ..... ( spoilers)
The 14th doctor is going to be the one who summons 12th.
The events of end of time happened at the same time as the 50th
Galifrey was timelocked for the entire time EXCEPT for the couple of minutes when it " returned" to earths orbit
The reason the 11th/12th doctor were able to appear in the shed was because Galifrey was outside the timelock
However when they sent the message to summon all their old version the temporal coordinate would be to the timelocked moment.
The tardis would fail to come creating a paradox event which is why all the old enemies are comming back (10th speech about all the things that would come back with the timelords)
The 14th has both and old face which 12th would recognize and knowledge of the correct temporal cordinates to goto (earth orbit)
I like this as a little explanation of the Watcher. I feel like it could also tie up some stuff involving the Ruth doctor. Perhaps a previous incarnation of the doctor bi-generated (prior to Hartnell, or, who knows, canonise the season 6B theory via bi-generation). That version of the doctor regenerates one or more times, at one point into Ruth, at the end to the Watcher to merge with Baker.
Canonising 6B would work well. The theory is based on 2 undergoing a forced regeneration we never see. What if the forced regeneration went wrong because the time lords refused his request to pull his arms and he ended up falling unconscious. They go to drag him out of the room and splits him into Two and Three. They exile three as promised, none the wiser, but don't know what to do with the remaining Two. They cover it up and keep it hush hush, hence why bi-generation is only "a myth".
Hell, it could even explain how "The Division" got its name!
Fantasic idea!!! You also wouldn't need to use it for the 15ths dr's regeneration. in fact it's almost better that he doesn't. If the 14th was left to regenerate that could work to explain the valiard and the the valiard could regenerate into something that then becomes the watcher to atone for his sins.
That concept would help.Great idea
There's another example regarding the 3-4 regeneration. Another timelord has a servant who's actually an echo of his next regeneration, and I figured The Watcher and 15 are similar phenomenons in this regard. For the most part we've only seen the Doctor renegerate, so weird non-linear wrinkles like this could be semi-regular occurances across Timelords.
My theory is that bi-generation a fluke. I think that in the end, they will find that they are two sides of the same coin and can't exist without the other. Ellie has mentioned how more emotional 15 is, and I also recall her mentioning 15 has lost his assertiveness...the confidence...the "take charge" spirit that all versions of The Doctor had. Ellie said that 15 was afraid...stunned in fright. "The Doctor doesn't get scared," she said. 14 is "The Power Doctor"...15 is The Emotional/Carefree Doctor. I think it may go in the direction that they will discover that each is incomplete without the other and will have to find a way to merge back together again. I don't know how it could be explained about the Toymaker's beam did something to The Doctor's physiological state that caused the regeneration to go wonky. Donna will know that something is off with 14. Donna will be the one to bring it to both Doctors and tell them they need to re-fuse themselves. That's my prediction. 😁
My mind must be too in the gutter, because that opening line had me in a full belly-laugh. Pulling one Doctor out of another Doctor sounds like something Captain Jack would think about.
a neat and simple solution would be for the 14th doctor to become the watcher to go back and aid the 4th doctors regeneration. if you assume that each subsequent doctor has some kind of trace memories of future events could explain the 7th doctor and 11th doctors vague knowledge of their own future timeline!
I would love that solution!
There is also the fact that the Curator exists, which is a future version of the doctor, who settled down.
The doctor did go back to "one of the old favorites" so it is a possibility
There was that line in the giggle; “we’re doing therapy out of order” or something like that, which makes me think that 14’s regeneration just happened early. Probably due to the confusion and chaos brought on by the toymaker just being there.
So my thinking is that 14 will die of old age after taking a long deserved rest being a long term fixture of the noble-temple clan for generations. 14 lays down to rest and his body just disappears.
Nice and simple! He just dies when he’s ready
I have always thought that the 14th Doctor "retiring" is a great "Save Game" point for the franchise for the whole Disney transition. If Ncuti did /does not work out - They can always kill him off somehow, and let 14 Regenerate (yet again because 4 times was not enough lol) into "15B" or "16" as a way to Retcon the Disney Era.But then again, If all of the previous Doctors up until that point also Bigenerated, and THEN regenerated, then the universe must be absolutely teeming with versions of the Doctor.
I'm glad I'm not the only person who immediately thought back to the Watcher (and the Valeyard). My money is on them doing a final 14th doctor special where they have Ncuti absorb him to save the day or as a result of the 14th doctors regeneration. Personally I would like to see the 14th doctor regenerate into Tom Baker's Curator character
How about instead of David Tenant's 14 appearing as the 15th Doctor's watcher before merging with 15 so he could regenerate into 16, when 15 dies, he regenerates into a figure wrapped in white bandages before he fades away. The white mummy Doctor could then reappear in Logopolis as Tom Baker's 4th Doctor's Watcher. That would actually be the payoff of a mystery that would date back how many decades by the time David Tenant was ready to regenerate again? They could actually have David Tenant record the Watcher's unheard dialog from Logopolis and have that dialog play over those scenes. That could be a really cool part to include in the 75th Anniversary Special or perhaps the Centennial special. David Tenant would just need to live into his 90s to film his regeneration. Alternatively, he could record that regeneration any time he and the BBC felt like filming it. Not that I don't want David Tenant to live to be over 100 himself.
That is an interesting premise and way to come back to the idea. I've always thought the Watcher thing was cool and Logopolis a strong episode overall.
Wasnt the whole idea for them to basically start a MCU style Whoniverse? So I dont think they should merge any time soon.
Also I kinda believe that the 4th Doctor was established to be the 13th Doctor (Brain of Morbius), so the idea of the Watcher felt like a way to extend the life of the Doctor somehow. Also don't forget that in the Big Finish stories, Tom Baker's Curator regenerated into Colin Baker
Solid idea. And in the meantime the show can have moments of 14 healing before they merge back together, making the Doctor stronger.
There is an alternative to The Watcher, the Valeyard (Colin Barker era, trial of a timelord). The interesting thing about this notion is that the trial stenographer was also the Regeneration before the Valeyard.
Bi-generation was a result of the Toymaker´s magic. I don´t think it will stay forever. I guess 14 and 15 will re merge and regenerate into a new Doctor...
14th regenerates into....Mrs Flood. You're Welc😊ome.
Interesting theory. The Watcher was a cool device. At the time it reminded me of Planet of the Spiders with the dual characters K'Anpo and Cho-Je. One is a temporal/Psychic projection of the other. While the elder Time Lord remained in isolation his projection roamed freely. A concept that could be adopted easily in modern Who. Personally I think the whole Bigeneration was nonsense and will come back to bite the series at a later time. Did it look cool on screen? Absolutely. The ramifications of all the other Doctors is just ludicrous. I suppose we'll see.
Great video Ellie. Cheers from Canada
Thing is that Ncuti told us kind of what's kind of going on. He was meant to take time off and work out his accumulated trauma so 15 isn't burdened with them. Trouble is that if anything the always crying Disney Doctor is a bit like, although not as bad, the time Kirk got split in two. So if they wanted a mild course correction they could have the re-merging take place on Disney but leave wiggle room for 14 to have had all kinds of adventures before then.
I think that the 15th doctor is his own version of the doctor and doesn't have the connection to his past regeneration but will retain his memories and thoughts of what the doctor stands for , as for the 14th doctor he will have that connection to his past self's due to him keep regenerating into different versions wich makes he or she better than previously but they can come back through sub conscious thinking without him or her even knowing. And I think that's what is good, because they can now bi generate
It's nice, but the BBC can never use the idea for fear of being accused of plagiarism.
This would have been a great idea IF you had not revealed it publicly so now there is zero chance that it will be done.
BUT!
If this is your application to join the Doctor Who writing staff... then go for it Ellie, we're all with you!
I still say it’s simpler than we’re making it. Eventually the 14th doctor will fall and regenerate into the beginning of the 15th doctor’s regeneration a quick montage of the 15th doctor getting his sea legs and doing some historical stuff then he says “Oh, it’s time” and physically transports to the bigeneration.
Honestly i wasn't a fan of the Bi-generation. Think it felt just mashed together. But this sounds like a good way to put them both to bed, and carry on with the next doctor.
Could Tennant be the watcher? He's the one who meets the 4th Doctor as he's about to regenerate. Tennant has seen the 5th Doctor as the 10th Doctor, and would also be someone who knows the future and could run the Tardis. I know it makes Tennant a very big character in the whonive, but things would be nicely tied up.
i like this. this is why i watch these vids
same
In a similar way the 6th Doctor heard the voice of 7 just before his regeneration in some big finish story. This idea can definitely work
I think.this is the most rational idea, but I feel 14 needs more than a 1 scene cameo. We need to see the impact or 14 realising that he's come full circle and have 14 invert 10's last words ("I don't want to go" become "time to go")
Interesting that you imply that Ncuti is going at the end of the next season. That's how what you said felt to me.
We already know that Time Lords can be divided into multiple selves by the authorities on Gallifrey -- that's what happened to the increasingly inaccurately-named Second Doctor, played by Patrick Troughton. The Time Lords divided the Doctor into two selves, one continuing to act as an agent of Gallifrey who continued as the Troughton Doctor, and another who reformed into Jon Pertwee's Doctor. The Doctor's TARDIS was split as well, and, not being as fully grown and experienced as it became in the newer series, only one version had fully developed time travel abilities -- exactly as the Time Lords intended, as they wanted the Doctor stranded on Earth. Of course, they eventually gave that power back to the earthbound TARDIS.
The question, though, is what happened to the Troughton Doctor? Sometime after meeting the Colin Baker Doctor, Troughton's Doctor stopped traveling via TARDIS. It's entirely possible that he ticked off the Time Lords and had his TARDIS' dematerialisation circuit removed and transferred to the Pertwee Doctor. At this point, lacking a TARDIS to travel, the Troughton Doctor did something with the remainder of his TARDIS that changed him into what was no longer the Doctor . . . merely the Watcher. Having accessed knowledge hidden within his now-defunct TARDIS, he knew that the Doctor and he were separated segments of the timestream of the same Time Lord. He moved to repair the timeline by rejoining his other self, making the Doctor whole.
Bi-regeneration was theoretical because it was possible, but usually only happened as a judicial action by the Time Lords. (Most of the times that the Doctor says something is "impossible," what he really means is that it's entirely possible, only highly unethical and shouldn't be done.) Indeed, having been bi-regenerated before, in addition to having crossed their own timestream several times, been charged with additional regeneration energy, and rediscovered their non-Gallifreyan origin, the Doctor was fully prepared to bi-regenerate when needed. Not only that, but having two versions of the Doctor progressing forward simultaneously is a big "get out of jail free" card for the series, as the Doctor could fully die and be repaired by rejoining the other Doctor to make a new whole. It's possible that the TARDIS could be restored from destruction the same way.
The big question now is this: what happened to the other three versions of the Troughton Doctor that the Time Lords created? Are any of them still employed as Gallifreyan agents? Did they die in the Time War? Is one of them the Master? Did one of them go back and meet Susan? They could be anyone now. Probably the Rani; it's always the Rani.
(All of the above is pulled entirely from my sitting place, and is meant as nothing more than fun speculation.)
That'd be a hard pass for me. The whole idea of the Watcher is that they're meant to represent the future of their Time Lords, having 14 being 15's Watcher would imply that 15 would become 14/David Tennant again.
I'd much rather have 14 either not appearing ever again (cause we've -or at least I- had more than enough different David Tennant in DW) or the show handwaving the idea that 14 was pulled back off screen to The Giggle and became 15.
14 becoming either The Valeyard (people already thought that from the Meta Crisis, ugh) or the Curator would undermine the mystery surrounding these beings IMO.
14 being unable to regenerate at all would be much more neat. He exists, kuddos, his TARDIS is linked to 15's which means 15 gets all the info of 14's travels and adventures, and when 14 dies, poof, he's gone.
Or like, make 14 die on Trenzalore or become Merlin, or become the Relic, or heck, even The Other, but let him not be in the future.
Nay, thank you. Besides we saw the 14th Doctor at the end of The Day of the Doctor when he had regenerated to the form the elderly 4th Doctor who was the curator of the museum interacting with his younger self. Proving that his adventures days are well behind him.
I think 14 travels until somewhere 15 regenerates. When 15 regenerates, 14 becomes 15 version 2, and that version of the Doctor is always one incarnation behind the current Doctor.
RTD has stated he thinks bigeneration happens all the time. However, why not just close the loop? The 14th is The Watcher and finds himself forced to save the 4th. 15 should regenerate into 16. But, maybe do it as a Christmas special. 15 keeps going on.
We have seen similar before with Cho-Je and K'Anpo the same time lord twice over, described as a projection at the 3-4's regeneration.
I love the idea but I think he should say “I’m ready to go” give a contrast to when the 10th said “he didn’t want to go”
Or...how about this, the 14th Doctor regenerates into the Valeyard, goes back along his timeline to cause mayhem, then realizes the error of his ways, and goes on a spiritual journey with himself, exploring the Guardians of the Edge concept a bit further, unlocks the ability to regenerate back into previously used versions of himself/herself at will, and becomes the Curator? How's that sound?
Your fix is an amazing idea, i hope the BBC either does it or something similar to it
Love the idea of the watcher making a return but I don't understand why the watcher would be David Tennant in this context. Surely it would, if anyone, be the doctor Ncuti regenerates into. I don't remember Jon Pertwee turning up for Tom Baker's regeneration, for example. I don't personally need an answer to the question of what happens to the fourteenth doctor but that's more of a personal taste thing I guess.
HI I think if Tenants Doctors was kept around, just n case Ncuti Gatwa decides to leave, and the 15th Doctors regenerates and the 15th Regeneration starts to Fail ??
Bi-generation is a bit of a mixed bag. I believe RTD stated that, as of 14’s bi-generation into 15, every previous Doctor had also bi-generated. I think this was done, so previous actors could reprise their roles as the Doctor, and the fact that they had aged could be hand-waved away due to this.
A clever writer would go on to say that, once the Doctor regenerates, their past self loses the ability to ever regenerate again, and carries on with their life, until they die of old age, or misadventure. Once they pass away, they are removed from the time stream, back to the point at which they bi-generated. This allows actors to reprise their roles, and explains why they are never in the show, if the actor passes away. Nice.
However… does this only apply to just the “Doctor” personas of the character. What about all those regenerations that happened, prior to the Doctor regenerating into William Hartnell’s Doctor? In which case, there is a plethora of bi-generated beings out there. Unless, of course, something happened to the Doctor, prior to regenerating into Hartnell’s Doctor. Perhaps they were genetically altered into a pure Time Lord, from whatever species the Doctor actually is, so bi-generation only goes back as far as the First Doctor?
Or, perhaps the Doctor is all of the Time Lords? Each bi-generation retains the ability to regenerate, but forgets their past self, not knowing they are actually the Doctor. Because of the Doctor’s love of what he believes to be his home, Gallifrey, they all unconsciously have a desire to go there (or remain there, if that is where they bi-generated). Yes, there are plenty of holes in this theory. But there are plenty of holes in the canon around bi-generation, as well. But it is a fun “What if…?”
Personally, I think finding the Timeless Child started a causality loop. The Timeless Child is the original Time Lord, found offworld by a Gallifreyan, who brings her back to Gallifrey, whose presence results in the creation of the Time Lords. Who find the Timeless Child offworld, bring her back to Gallifrey, etc, etc…
It’s a big multiverse. Anything can happen.
Cheers,
Yay most definitely but what about the 2nd TARDIS? What will happen to that one
Oh I love this idea, it's much more positive scenario than 14 becoming The Valyard...which if they don't do this, I think they have to make 14 the valyard
The whole reason the regeneration was done this way was keep David around, the ratings took a massive tumble with the last two Doctors and David was brought back to give the show a ratings boost.
First have the 14th regenerate into an older 4th to meet the 11th then have him go back again to fix some timey-wimy things before rejoining himself fixing multiple loose ends.
I really like this idea, but I think they need to keep it in their back pocket for a few doctors. It will be so much more powerful to have the 14th Doctor show up to help the 17th or 18th Doctor. Let people forget 14 is out there for a while, then bring him back, or don't. may just say Screw Canon and have the 14th Doctor regenerate into the 1st Master.
I know they said he wasn't this but I would like the idea of Tennant becoming the curator