Old Testament Does Not Foretell Jesus' Birth (feat Kipp Davis) (Lee Strobel Case for Christmas 4)
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- Опубліковано 20 гру 2021
- In this last of a four-part study, Lee Strobel points to Old Testament prophecy as the silver bullet in the case for the historicity of the Jesus birth narrative in his Case for Christmas. But Dr @Kipp Davis (a specialist in Second Temple Judaism and the Dead Sea Scrolls) joins Paulogia to investigate the same... but comes to very different conclusions.
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BTW, that is my second-favourite t-shirt.
Your character looks so much like you! Good job btw 👍👍
I just love how Paulogia implies that Wise men could not possibly use Astronomy as Navigation, yet Sailors have been using this same navigation system for 1000's of years. But I understand how atheists cling to their delusions in order to appease their conscience for taking part in xmas celebrations. But ultimately Lee Strobel is WRONG! Because there is absolutely NOTHING in all of scripture to even suggest that there was supposed to be any kind of xmas celebration.
The evidence against xmas is blatantly obvious for all to see. The Feasts of the Lord are easily explained in Lev 23. The secret key to unlocking the dates in Lev 23 is the advent of New Moon Day being declared on the 1st month of the Hebrew Year. Therefore every single Feast of scripture cannot possibly be correlated to a particular date on the Julian/Gregorian calendar, because those calendars did not exist in any form whatsoever, when Lev 23 was penned.
The Roman Julian calendar did not exist prior to 63BC, and this same Roman calendar was later modified by the Papacy and became the official Catholic calendar in 1582, which was later adopted by the whole world, except some radical muslim states. Even Jews changed from the Hebrew Luni-Solar calendar in 367AD under leadership of Hillel II. Before 63BC, romans had an 8 day week and a 10 month year, so that all current calendations systems are completely detached from Nature.
However, the Creators Luni-Solar calendar is still in effect and is 100% pinned to Nature and the natural cycles discovered everywhere on earth. Therefore to pinpoint those Lev 23 Feast Days requires observation of the Natural world, as opposed to blindly following a calendar designed by a deluded ROman Caesar and an equally deluded Pope Gregory XIII.
What atheists don't realise in their hatred towards everything they think comes from God, is that their recognition of the Gregorian calendar actually makes them Catholics in the eye of the Creator. Xmas day is a Catholic inspired consolidation of paganism being fixed as Dec 25th, but not found anywhere in scripture. Whereas the catholic inspired easter is a pagan adaptation of the Hebrew Passover + Unleavened Bread + First Fruits, which has no fixed Gregorian date each year, because it's calculated according to the Hebrew Luni-Solar calendar.
@@delawarecop "What atheists don't realise in their hatred towards everything they think comes from God"
Atheists don't accept the claim of the existence of any god, so to claim they think anything comes from a god is illogical.
@@wfemp_4730 "Atheists don't accept the claim of the existence of any god,"
LOL, but atheists do spend a LOT OF TIME trying to convince others that there is no God. and they even fabricate alternative views to explain the Natural Universe through genius statements like " A UNIVERSE FROM NOTHING", and Science Fiction stories about universes exploding into existence without cause or reason, and even the possibility of multi-verses, when they don't even know the true dimensions of the current Universe.
But I digress. The Dictionary specific interpretation of atheism is - The SPECIFIC BELIEF that there are no gods. This is actually Science denialism 101, because Einstein's interpretation of the Universe claims that knowing the future before it occurs is IMPOSSIBLE in the natural Universe because it would violate CAUSALITY.
Therefore a book called the Bible, with numerous references to a futire Nuclear war thats destroys civilisation, some references as far back as 3500 years ago, is evidence of a SUPERNATURAL GOD who is able to exist outside of our current understanding of the spacetime continuum. This is the evidence that Paulogia is attempting to discredit through his private interpretation of prophecies, that are in reality simply word plays by a proven self confessed antichrist!
@@delawarecop Nobody using celestial navigation has *ever* seen a star remain at the zenith of a fixed point on earth other than at the north pole.
You have to invoke magic to account for the star over the manger. It's not in any nautical almanac and never was.
BTW, you need to trilaterate with *three* celestial bodies to navigate to anywhere other than the north pole.
Door to door witnesses: Hello sir, would you like to take a moment to discuss the word of god?
Dr. Kipp Davis: Sure, what would you like to know?
LOL. Christmas cheers mate !!
This used to happen a lot. Sadly, no one rings my doorbell to talk about the Bible, or the end of the world, or the Book of Mormon anymore. I feel neglected.
@@DrKippDavis I guess you got on their "Don't_Go_There" lists years ago.
This man has important bible/reality info ua-cam.com/video/E7Xrc1nL8Xk/v-deo.html
@@kamion53 I think the same happened to me after I invited the two smartly dressed young men to step inside for a longer chat. Somehow they appeared to find it difficult to share my devotion to Odin All Father and refused to join my worship at the household shrine. Nor did they seem to understand the revelations of my runic reading in exposing the errors of their clearly false beliefs. I trust in Odin's mercy that they simply blacklisted me rather than being struck down by a the mighty spear Gungnir.
Oh the joys of living alone with time and money to burn... Marriage and family meant my library becoming a dining room, my shrine to Odin being consigned to a box under the stairs and my wife, a staunch member of the Russian Orthodox church, taking over duties to repel door stepping missionaries.
I remember reading these non-prophecies as a Christian, thinking to myself that they were not prophecies, but accepting that they must be and that I'm just not knowledgeable enough. It was the old religious practice of forcing yourself to believe even when it doesn't make sense - not questioning, being obedient. I'm glad I finally had the courage to allow myself to be skeptical.
Thanks Paul and Kipp for helping others to think.
What prophecy do you believe wasn't fulfilled
@@samuelcalderwood1379 Did you even watch the video? Start with the many they mentioned in it. Also in this context we're comparing what scripture actually said with how it's being falsely interpreted. The non-fulfilling of actual prophecies is another discussion.
@@samuelcalderwood1379 gee whiz... How about none of them? 😂😂
@@weldabar what prophecy are you referring to
@@samuelcalderwood1379 - they don;t want to get too involved in specifics, because the atheist way is to cast doubt through their own 'special interpretation' of scripture, and leave it at that. They aren't interested in truth, only their private interpretation of truth, so that their own lives are being highlighted as a LIE.
Ironically, Six Day Young Earth Creationists insist upon taking Genesis literally yet refuse to take the Old Testament prophecies literally. Utter hypocrisy and double standards!
only two standards? they create standards at the spot, that's why they are called creationists.
But they don’t take Genesis literally. Any honest reading of Genesis I would notice that it doesn’t match Genesis II, yet YECs insist that they tell parts of the same story. And the chapters are right next to each other.
@@francesconicoletti2547 good point, and I normally elaborate. My point was about interpreting the so called Messianic prophecies literally.
They don't take literally in Genesis:
The talking snake was literally just a snake who could talk and not Satan.
That Adam and Eve were supposed to literally die the same day they ate the Forbidden Fruit. They insist that the six days of creation are literally six days, yet when the same terminology is used about the Forbidden Fruit, they take it metaphorically as Adam lived for hundreds of years.
Also, the snake told the truth which God admit, their eyes were opened, and God lied about the punishment. He said they would die upon the day they ate the Forbidden Fruit, not any of the cursed is the ground or child birthing would be painful nonsense.
In addition, what purpose did the fruit of life serve if they were already immortal and doesn't the Scriptures say elsewhere that only God is immortal?
PS I'm using Forbidden Fruit as shorthand for The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
@@kamion53 good point and 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@francesconicoletti2547 That's why I left Young Earth Creationism; to read Genesis literally, you must first read it in the original Sumerian, and it makes so much more sense!
This is my favorite challenge to give Christians: read Matthew in order. Every time it claims prophetic fulfillment, read the corresponding Old Testament passage carefully. Read the surrounding context carefully.
I don't think a fundamentalist Christian can do this without feeling _at least_ profoundly uneasy.
My theory is that Gentile Christianity got carried away with the Messianic prophecy bit and subsequently misunderstood Matthew’s points. When I first began doubting my faith, Matthew’s gospel was one of the places I went to most to see the absurdities in the gospels. After all, look at the all the passages in the Tanakh he says were “fulfilled” by Jesus that do not appear to have any relevance to what is going on in the gospel! However, I have since come to see that the author is doing something else besides just claiming a prediction came to pass when he uses the word “fulfill”. He isn’t always using the word in the sense that a prediction was fulfilled; sometimes he is also citing verses that apply to a given situation depicted in the narrative or that highlight an aspect of the character he is trying to portray.
I feel like that challenge goes un-attempted every single time, though. Any christian even _capable_ of accepting such a challenge is not going to be a christian for very long anyways, and that kinda means that any christian you'd ever be in a position to issue the challenge to is never going to lift a single finger to learn anything about their "faith" in the first place.
Kinda gotta hit that microscopic sweet spot between 'hasn't thought about it yet but will' and 'too fucking stupid and lazy to ever have a thought'. And that's like... six people at any given moment.
@@EdwardHowton I'm one of those stubborn fucks who actually reads the Book and still remains Christian after leaving Young Earth Creationism, leaving Biblical inerrancy, leaving the idea that God is omni, _and_ realizing that the God(head) of the Bible that I worship is probably the Mesopotamian Anunnaki and the Bible is Bronze Age theocratic tribal propaganda justifying Mesopotamian cultural genocide of the Phonecian Ba'alim and forcing the ANE to worship the Anunnaki and submit to Babylon; note every time the God(s) of Abraham ruthlessly genocides the Canaanites, Philistines, and anyone else who worships the Phonecian Ba'alim, while giving the Mesopotamian cultures either slaps on the wrist or even His own Chosen Tribe in chains, commanding His People to Exterminatus the Canaanites and Philistines but submit to Babylon, the very Empire of Evil, and even the Devil-worshipping* terrorist al-Qaeda of the ancient world, Assyria!
As for the NT, it just passes the baton of the Empire of Evil from Babylon to Rome, and still commands submission to the Evil Empire while letting them wipe out any worshippers of HaBa'alim, as seen with Rome's war on Carthage!
God can kill whoever He wants and still be pure and not have broken the Divine Law because God is not human and therefore not subject to human law, the Lion of Judah is a Cat and therefore subject to the moral law of cats, which is they kill whatever they want, enjoy flesh, and are always right! Aslan is the most metal God ever! 🤘😎
@@autobotstarscream765 You _do_ understand that all you did was make up your own nonsense and then say you believe in it, right?
You _do_ understand that's insane, right?
You do realize admitting you're stubborn doesn't make it okay?
Do you even care that everything you just said is bullshit you made up to make yourself feel special and that none of it is true?
Jesus fulfilled much of the new testament.The current pandemic is fulfilling prophecy as in pestilence , God is shaking the nations and nothing is left so the rapture could happen anytime with other prophecy being fulfilled during the time of the antichrist and that will be a terrible time
Kipp Davis: "Oh, this is going on the top of the CV!" Truly a man with his priorities straight!
Rule if thumb for CV and Resume is most recent goes first.
What are your qualifications?
I was on Paulogia's channel.
OMG! An American speaking Hebrew, and I can actually understand him without listening five times and turning on my imagination. Cudos for a wonderful guest, Paul
Be sure to check out his channel...
That's very nice, but I am Canadian. We're a billion times better at this than Americans.
@@DrKippDavis better at what?sinning
@@samuelcalderwood1379 the Americans easily have us beat on that one
@@samuelcalderwood1379 you seem to b trolling the comments - if u r sincere, would u b willing to have a civil & respectful discussion on this topic? I'd be happy to supply a method of contact to U
My old Sunday School Teacher self keeps wanting to talk about each prophecy having multiple fulfilments, because God's word always has more than one application.. but now I see that's just a cheap wiggle lol
Even Jesus's reading of the prophet's writing abruptly stopped before the rest of the prophecy is complete and then he declared, " All of this is fulfilled before your eyes."
This man has important bible/reality info ua-cam.com/video/E7Xrc1nL8Xk/v-deo.html
@Yvonne How is that so? I mean, Christians often use partial prophecies to fulfill prophecies. They claim that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who was to come twice, first to die and then he would come to rule. Peter claimed that the prophecy of the prophet Joel was fulfilled at Pentecost, but left out the " dreadful day of the Lord. "
Yes the New Testament writers did a lot of literary gymnastics trying to turn Jewish prophecies into some type of Christian fulfillment.
It was a lot easier to fool people who were forced to waste a valuable Sunday on God when they already worked 18 hour days to survive...
Check out Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill. The audio version is great. He demonstrates, in a logical manner, how the bible is a mockery of a Jewish rebellion and the clever "deification" of Roman Generals/Emperors. The final "Lord" worshipped in the Gospels is a Roman general who became a Roman Emperor. The Gospels have many jokes in it. Even cannibal jokes. The "King of the Jews" is even comically pressed in a wine press!
And later Christians do a lot of mental gymnastics in order to justify said fulfillment
@@sorenjensen3863 Yeah, Strobel was not making the landing even without the expert translations
@@intermediaryfossil7163 Joseph Atwill loves to create conspiracy theories and then place them in the first century CE.
But set in a broader historical context will quickely show his story is complete balony. Only Ralph Ellis spins more ludicrous tales.
As a person who left judaism, all I can say is ‘wow’. I respect Dr. Kipp’s scholarly commentary. Funny thing, to this day I cannot pronounce yod hey vav hey.
Wow!
It must drive you nuts to hear Christians pronounce the Name out all the time now, but what do you think of the idea that the Canaanites worshipped one of their HaBa'alim (did I write that right?) by the Name and even allegedly sacrificed babies in the Name, thus inducing HaShem to declare Exterminatus upon them?
This man has important bible/reality info ua-cam.com/video/E7Xrc1nL8Xk/v-deo.html
@@autobotstarscream765 it is weird to hear yod hey vav hey pronounced so freely. However, I started down the path of truth. The modern myths do not hold up in any of the abrahamic faiths.
@@asexualatheist3504 Modern myths?
Awww. The solstice blessing warms my heart, as a former Christian, who finds the return of the sunlight in Canada a much better thing to celebrate than the birth of an infant destined to be tortured to death.
Eh-men brother Nim !!
So you don't celebrate Christmas then?
@@samuelcalderwood1379 Who wouldn't accept a paid day or two off work?
@@samuelcalderwood1379 Our family celebrates on the solstice, we still decorate a tree, we make gingerbread, and we hang garlands of dried oranges and some with berries to hang outside for the birds. Together we light candles to burn through the longest night, to remind us the sun will return.
On Christmas we would still visit (pre-covid) and exchange gifts with extended family who are still Christian, but our special day is the solstice.
@@samuelcalderwood1379 Nah, mate, we celebrate Saturnalia; it's super rad and demonstrably predates Christmas.
Nothing fails like prophecy and prayer.
John and Jane went up the hill to pray.
All day upon that hill did they stay.
But, alas their prayers went unheard,
thier prayers were a waste of time, deed, and word!
So the next day, they awoke,
To find they were broke.
Then they got work, and earned an income,
which is a far better and useful outcome!
@@ladyselenafelicitywhite1596 don't give up your day job
@@samuelcalderwood1379 at least I had two jobs* and am not living off of benefits, whilst living in my grandmother's basement. Probably eating ramen noodles, or something off of the McDonald's or Wendy's savers menu. Plus drinking the cheapest alcohol money can buy.
*I was a librarian and a teaching assistant. I'm retired now.
Prayer doesn't fail. There are many types of prayer that work quite well.
@@Timmeh_The_tyrant if by quite well you mean at the rate of chance sure
I've been attending a Bible study, and there's been such an emphasis on old testament prophecy in Isaiah coming true, it's a bit exhausting. Dr. Kipp's information on the subject is extremely helpful and insightful to the meanings of it. Thank you!
I genuinely enjoy how often in historical literature one encounters the hoary sentiment of "things used to be SO much better; the world today is going all to hell." From the Illiad to Snori Sturluson, from Froissart to the Southern "Lost Cause" tradition--and also, apparently, and rather unsurprisingly in the Torah--that sentiment just seems to be universal throughout time and place, which suggests that the feeling is probably rooted in human psychology. What I enjoy much less is how people exploit this feeling for their own ends, and how many people today wholeheartedly buy into the myth. One of many reasons why it's important to study history.
I wonder if the lament isn't specific to those in power. In my circles I dont usually hear women or minorities speaking in quite the same manner...
Brilliant!
Nostalgia was better back in my day!
Nostalgia and selective long-term memory. We naturally don’t keep high detail of unpleasant moments of our past (except traumas). So in the long-run of a human’s life, we usually forget the bad details about our past and only remember the good parts. Then we make a comparison to today’s hardships and the past feels better, so we lament an utopian lost-past when in the end is just our faulty memories.
@@AnonimusQualquer This is 100% accurate. Its especially easy to do so when people didnt live that long and a single war could decimate population... Sure its hard to live a good life when half of your family was murdered on the battlefield and if your nation lost probably your village/city got sacked as well.
Excellent bringing in Dr. Kipp, as always I'm impressed with your circle of collaborators!
I dont know why he's rolling the R in Eferauim
I've been binge-watching so much of Dr. Kipp Davis' content! I love his approach to Bible as literature and its something I never would have considered when I was a Christian. In fact, this is the most interested I've been in the Bible since leaving Christianity over a decade ago!
awesome
That's amazing. Thank you.
The birth of Jesus and the journey of the three kings - (but with the benefit of schoolboy level astronomy).
The three kings started their journey by following a star. They could only travel at night because the star was not visible during the day.
The star appeared over the horizon in the south. They walked in the direction of the star but found after an hour of travel that the star was now 15 degrees further west and an hour after that it was another 15 degrees away from their original direction. After 6 hours walking they were now heading due west and by the time that dawn was threatening to break they were now heading virtually due north. They had walked in a complete semicircle.
Having no star to follow during the day they rested and the second day as nightfall came they again saw the star appear over the horizon almost due south. They continued their journey by following the star but not one of them was bright enough to notice that for the first part of the journey they were walking in exactly the opposite direction to the way they were going at the end of the first night. They again walked in a complete semicircle on the second night.
After an unknown number of semicircular nights they eventually found themselves in Bethlehem and saw that the star was directly above a stable, although how they could establish that when the star was several light years away is not explained.
What we can say for certain is that if they had arrived an hour earlier or an hour later they would have been hundreds of miles off target.
What a very good point
Hilarious and potentially true !! However, ancients were very good astronomers so they would not likely quite be the three stooges vs three kings, if any of this was remotely accurate. It is more likely that the zodiac was a critical component of many of the symbols in the story and this tale of the star may add credence to such an hypothesis.
Also, if god wasn't a psychopath killer (the flood, Egyptian first born, Moses 3000 dissenters, etc), maybe a dream to AVOID seeing Herrod would have save a few innocent lives vs having the dream after locating baby jesus. Just sayin'
Almost like it never actually happened as described.
The bible does not say they were kings ,it says that they were wise men
@@samuelcalderwood1379 That may be true, however the song goes like this -
We three kings of Orient are
Bearing gifts we traverse afar
Field and fountain, moor and mountain
Following yonder star
We three kings, we three kings.
Nothing about wise men here.
Hmmmm….watching these videos is starting to make me think my Sunday school teachers didn’t know what they were talking about.
Sunday school teachers just want the toxic meme to continue. Hansel and Gristle was a warning parable !!
Finally! A comprehensive and easy to understand explanation of biblical prophecies. This video will be a great resource for many people.
Paulogia, you rock. Hope you have a kick ass solstice!
What an awesome guest (Kip Davis) I will have to cruise over and check out his channel. Meanwhile, back at the fireside. Lee Strobel reminds me of a little kid sitting around the backyard firepit with his little pals going "ooh, ooh, I've got this new (fill in the blank) to tell you about, listen up now"
I listened to parts of this several times over & documented some notes because there's so much great information from Dr. Kipp Davis! I love great scholarship like this. Dr. Kipp seems very knowledgeable & even inspires me!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you. That is very kind.
Best Christmas present ever from Paul & Kipp. Thank you for the gift of your intellect and pursuit of truth.
Such an opus bonum instructus ! The craftsmanship of this presentation, from graphics, research & references, sound quality, etc is outstanding.
This gives hope that 2022 will see more enlightenment.
Sincere appreciation gentlemen.
Ryan don't be fooled by this garbage, Jesus is real and he's coming back
@@samuelcalderwood1379 No, no he really isn't. Get over and get on with your life.
A true Christmas gift: education. Thank you!! 😸❤
It is more like a booster shot against the virusses of stupidity and superstition.
Ooh! I love this long content- great for listening at work.
Paul and Kipp, what a team !
Thank you. As usual, a thoughtful, thorough analysis of the willful ignorance and deception woven into the fabric of fundamentalism.
This man has important bible/reality info ua-cam.com/video/E7Xrc1nL8Xk/v-deo.html
I have learned to despise the overuse of "there's a lot to unpack".
Strobel was clearly never an atheist
I forget, is lying a sin? 😂
That's a really good point: for someone who loves to talk about how skeptical he used to be about Christianity, it seems highly implausible that he is now so gullible that he doesn't even check the context of passages.
Technically, Strobel - like everyone - was born an atheist.
At best he was a lukewarm Christians which apologetics use as an “atheist” umbrella. It is not.
A problem with saying someone was never an atheist, or never a true Christian, or whatever label you like, is that those terms can have vastly differing definitions. So until the person using the label provides their understanding of it's meaning, the statement of the label on it's own holds little value.
I don't particularly even care if Lee was the most stringent, and well versed atheists that ever was. The part I care about is whether his arguments for what he currently believes are convincing.
Nope.
I love to see Dr Kipp. Saw him interview by Johnathan MS Pearce. Very thoughtful and insightful.
So far one of the best conversations on this channel. 👌
Glad you think so!
GPS was not a result of faith, it is something that happens with science, Lee Strobel could never.
Keep your GPS on you so that when you die it can lead you somewhere, i dont know where you might want to go. its cold out in space.
Knocked out of the park Paul!!! My long drives are filled with some great material. One of your best yet. Dr Kipp is the bomb!
I love how they take Old Testament verses out of context. I remember actually reading the chapters and realizing what they were doing. Strobel knows this. What does that say about his ethics?
Ethics ? What ethics ?
These folks are as authentic as the wine they drink at "the lord's table".
I love when christians quote mine "And thy cometh" SEE! THEY TOLD US JESUS WOULD COME! You can do that with any piece of literature, quoting a random part of the text without any context or explanation can be used for any purpose. I think with enough work, I could use the HCAAP regulations to prove Jesus was foretold by a government agency.
@@Debilinside Just say it, you hope the bible is wrong.
@@bobdobbs943 I know it is wrong. That book literally debunks itself.
@@Debilinside You are under no obligation to read or believe the bible. It doesnt mean you are a bad person. May i ask, do you mean all of the bible is wrong, everything, or just some things are wrong. Thanks in advance.
Two of my favorite people! So excited to listen through this.
"my kids know better than to ask for gifts i can't buy online" same, Paul. same.
I always 'like' your videos before I even watch them.
appreciated 😆
I forget if I don't. My mind is racing with all the Paul by the end.
perfect timing! i was hoping this video would be out
This is just what I wished for Christmas!
The in-depth work you do on these responses makes me want to work harder on my own videos. And Strobel is always good for a chuckle. Thanks for a great series and happy solstice. :)
Go for it!
This man has important bible/reality info ua-cam.com/video/E7Xrc1nL8Xk/v-deo.html
Jesus didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies. It's just that simple. Best answer I've ever heard for this was "well he will when he comes back!" Let me know when that happens and I guess he can be the messiah then.
A first generation atheist You Tuber named Profmth Mitch created among other videos a four part series called Jesus Was Not The Messiah. In a very entertaining way Mitch reveals through the Old Testament verses exactly why Jesus just doesn't fit the messianic profile. Your comment sparked my memory of that video series...which is still uploaded on You Tube. It comes highly recommended.
@@alanw505 thank you for the heads up, I'll have to give it a look. I read an article once called something like why Jews don't believe Jesus was the messiah which opened my eyes a lot. As a Christian we were raised to believe Jewish people knew full well and rejected Jesus anyway and that couldn't have been less true.
@@Thezuule1 That also sounds very interesting. Jewish authors will always reveal things about the so called messianic prophecies that Christian authors just "forget" to mention.
The best part of that Jesus Was Not The Messiah series is each video is 10 minutes long and the whole series is 40 minutes long. I really do hope you check it out.
@@alanw505 Thanks as well for the reference!
You might check out a more contemporaneous person, Rabbi Tovia Singer, found on "Mythvision's" channel and who has a channel also. He's a wonderful speaker.
@@onedaya_martian1238 Will do. Have a great holiday.
Perfectly said. Happy Holidays!
Thank you yet again, Paul (and Kipp) for a very well reasoned and researched video. Happy Solstice!
The anonymous Gospel authors tried like hell to shoehorn Jesus into that savior role...They tortured the text in order to make square Jesus fit into that round hole.
It is often overlooked that Paul writting a few decades earlier did not need his shoehorned Jesus and that's because we traditional get the Gospels and Acts presented before Pauls's Epistles. Either the Gospel writers provided a reaction on Paul or they seriously thought the emerging Christians DESERVED a cultural martyred hero that could compete with the two martyred cultural hero's of the Greeks and the Jews; nl Socrates and Eleazer from Makkabees. There was already a Saviour godhead, there were campfire stories, there was lnpwledge of Greek literature and of Jewish literature, adding in the mix sincere belief and tadaaah: Gospels, lots of Gospels all correcting each other on supposed accuraty.
Paul's writing is complicated and longwinding, maybe targeted at the intelligentia: the Gospels is more: The Faith for Dummies
@@kamion53 Yet Paul didn't appear to know almost anything about the traditional stories written about Jesus.
@@alanw505 Taking his notes in Galatians !:13-23 serious he writes that he stayed a fortnight with Peter and also visited James the brother of Jesus. What do you think they talked about? The price of fish in Galilee?
If the traditional stories existed he surely hearded them first hand at that time. One could wonder how historical Paul himself was, but I give him a higher probability than the Jesus stories. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but not knowing the stories doesn't seem the reason for me Paul never mention anything of it. It's more a reason for me to assume they did not exist at his time and the shoehorning had to get started yet.
It was in those days a common practice that when making an argument it was constructed as a history. Livius wanted to make an argument how extalted Augustus was and wrote a whole library of history thereby creating the gymnasium student's nightmare. Virgil though Imperial Rome DESERVED a great myth of its own worthy to compete with the Illias and the Odyssee and created the Aeneid. ( and probably using a huge amount of thin air)
In that kind of context I like to place the origin and motive of the Gospels.
And I hope that in my assumption I did not use too much thin air.
@@kamion53 Nothing about Christianity...not a single crumb of it came from historical records. It was all either borrowed from other religions or invented out of thin air. It's all just baseless claims accepted by desperate people who can't deal with reality.
@@alanw505 I think Richard Carreer made a very reasonable attemp to explain the emerging of the phenonema Christianity and explained the influences other religions had on it.
It is nevertheless very hard to seperate influences and thin air inventions in the whole corpus. One should also seperate the whole of christian believes from the Gospels, they are not one and the same.... whatever the televangelists claim....The whole corpus of christian believes in the 1st century CE was murky and diverse. And very badly documented, when documented almost always in a negative way. The Gospels were used in the myth of the one an only church directly stemming from Jesus, that was created in the late 4th/ early 5th century when the church had tasted power. I also think we also have no idea how legit forgery for the sake of the faith was considered to be.
This was one of the most enjoyable videos I have seen this year. More content like this please.
This video really validates my perception of biblical prophecy. So often as i'm reading the NT and reference to prophecy is made, when i go to the referenced passaged it appears to have nothing to do with the claimed prophecy or to have been fulfilled by definitely not Jesus.
Good video. Thanks Paulogia and Dr. Davis.
Meet us under Proxima Centauri.
Second star to the right, and straight on to Salvation.
Its been said that every time one hears a tinker bell, an angel gets its wings.
And Neverland....😄
wow this is awesome, giving exposure to a small but incredibly interesting and informative channel, I've already subscribed
I just love that jingle! It's now the default notification bell on my phone. 😀
Wow. This was a excellent one, full of expert analysis. Thanks!
Nom nom nom. Brain candy!! Loved the presentation and in-depth scholarly knowledge presented! Great collaboration. 😃
Before work content. Great!
If Strobel wants to rely on Jewish prophecies and the ways that ancient Jewish people used their religious texts, then Strobel has to face the problem that those Jewish people reading those Jewish prophecies _did not think Jesus was the messiah._ Whoopsie!
Like pharaoh's heart, god dun hardened it, worse than fried food.
Not quite. The first Christians *were* Jews. They weren't really any more than a branch that believed the messianic prophecies had already been fulfilled, while the larger Jewish community was unconvinced. I'm not an expert, so I won't get into details I can't cite, but I don't think there can be much doubt that the movers and shakers in the Christian movement within Jewish culture were at least familiar with scripture and the purported prophecies that the messianic prophets were preaching.
TLDR: if none of the Jews thought the Christ had come (who can say, now, whether they were naming him Jesus at the time), we wouldn't have Christianity now
@@OneEyed_Jack Yes, possibly the first Christians were Jews who were convinced by the Messiah narrative - although even then it was a very small proportion of the Jewish people at that time.
However, it's also possible that Christianity started more as a Roman sect influenced by Judaism. After all, we don't know for sure how Christianity first started, but we do know that it was _popularised_ by Romans. Hell, we don't even know if there _was_ a Jesus behind it all - but that's a whole other discussion.
That's the point, it's supposedly a proper blind prophecy as per Telltale's oft-mentioned standards.
Thank you very much, Dr. Kipp. This was very enjoyable and interesting.
Great video! Thanks to you both!
Excellent as always
Thanks for the great resource. Merry Christmas.
Great video and cool presentation! Dr Kipp's explanation and argument is clear, convincing, comprehensive, sound, scholarly and informative. תודה וכל הכבוד
תודה רבה!
Hell yes, I get excited for Paul vids......oh sweet it's almost an hour too!
"Hell yes" 🤣 fellow blasphemer
I enjoyed the exegesis involved. This is a quality channel.
First line from Paul and it's already gold
So great to see non believer Bible scholars debunk the "misleadings" of Christianity. In this case, it appears that Strobel flat out lied about several things. Happy Holidays!
The frequency with which Christian apologists flat out lie leads me to believe that they are primarily con men, not believers themselves. They promote this stuff because they make a lot of money pandering to the likes of the troller of the comments on this video. People who don't actually consider the questions of what is true or how we can know it and make no attempt to apply criteria even-handedly to all religious claims.
This man has important bible/reality info ua-cam.com/video/E7Xrc1nL8Xk/v-deo.html
@@steved9128 Lss, that guy, just another quackpot. It's the same fanciful, flowery mind enticement that religion is: an opiate for those with low mental acumen. Entertaining though.
I have such a connection with this topic because this is the reason I stopped believing in the Bible. Great presentation/video and extra informative indeed!
Thank you Paul for the wonderful Dr. Davis! I first saw him on Myth Vision. Happy Solstice!
This was brilliant. I was in an exchange with a fervent christian the other day who's go-to evidence for Jesus was the "prophecies" of Isaiah. This video was an excellent and timely explanation of the context I knew he was missing.
There's more where that came from!
ua-cam.com/video/PpHjD8_jNFY/v-deo.html
There is a lot more wrong with the prophecies of Isaiah than presented here. If you would like I can explain any of them to you to the best of my knowledge.
This man has important bible/reality info ua-cam.com/video/E7Xrc1nL8Xk/v-deo.html
@@steved9128 he really doesn't.
Let's face it. The New Testament was produced as a Disney sequel to the Old Testament. That's why nothing makes sense and it's mostly nods to the original with far less substance.
Absolutely fascinating. I've just subscribed to Dr. Kipp Davis' channel. Brain food, mmm, delicious! Thanks, Paulogia.
Best yet and what a great guest, must have a look at his stuff.
There is something really funny about a Christian Apologist using Jewish texts as proof that Jesus is the Son of God. Since, y'know, the Jewish faith doesn't believe he is.
I was eight when there was a 'mistake' in the preaching going on at the pulpit about the birth of the Jewish Carpenter kid. I was told by parents that on that night in a town there was no place for the mother to have the child, that is why the songs sing about a manger, but that one christmas day the cult cryer was shouting about the reason for the birth, and that no one wanted them in their place so the manger was all the had(!). I was without fact and the truth about the cult for the first time, I was in shock (though I did not know that then), and lost for wanting to believe in this story. Later when I was forced out of the cult and was branded a heathen and heretic did I began to believe as I do now. Now, after lee and his 'proofs' with your series here, I fully now understand the story, and that it IS Just that, much like the stories about politicians telling the truth they make for good night time stories but nothing else. Peace
An excellent presentation!
I remember when I was a kid, I’m now 61, I will see movies of Jesus and tell my brother that Jesus was just following what he read in the scrolls. I told him to write in paper that tomorrow I will be sick and skip school. He will tell me, that’s stupid because you know what you have to do. Exactly, it’s stupid
This man has important bible/reality info ua-cam.com/video/E7Xrc1nL8Xk/v-deo.html
Merry Christmas 🎅 🎄 Paul.
Even when I was a Christian the OT prophecies were vague and unconvincing to me. No more convincing than Nostradamus' quatrains.
Maybe you weren't a Christian
Most of what I was taught as a youngster about the bible made no sense. I thought that, like the story of Santa, when I was old enough, I would be let in on the joke. Alas... I find that the joke is on most people (like american health insurance) and it is dangerous.
@@samuelcalderwood1379 maybe you’re not a true Scotsman.
@Samuel Calderwood Accepted Jesus and got baptized at 6. Went to a Christian school from K5 to grade 12. Prayed fervently on a daily basis for forgiveness for my wickedness. Yep I was a Christian alright. Neurotic behaviour and everything that goes with it.
@@samuelcalderwood1379 maybe you should stop using the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
All Christians are true Christians if they believe in Jesus, attempt to follow his teachings, and were baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
I was definitely a Christian and a religious sister.
Great video. Cleared up my head about alleged prophesies.
Hope you have a cool yule,
Great work Paul!!! 😍
As a scientist and an agnostic I am always fascinated when philosophers take a critical look at Christian and other religious mythology. Very interesting stuff!
Kipp Davis is Awesome.💯 Subscribed to his channel months ago.
I notice that he mentioned the manger story, which involves a census that was so stupid that it would have 100% destroyed the Roman economy if it had ever happened, and is a completely different story from the birth narrative that involves Herod's massacre.
New to ya. Good start. Kipp keeps popping up among my UA-camrs, seems like a decent dude.
I am actually just obsessed with hearing the sound of my own voice.
heh heh heh, lucky as hell you are not just jabberin' in tongues or sumpin' then! Keep up the good work, always quite interesting!
Merry christmas Paul
I bought a new JPS translation of the Tanakh and have never regretted it (the online JPS is the old 1917 one with all the thees and thous).
It is really interesting to see the Jewish translations of some of the passages the Christians try to claim for themselves. Always good to still look up proper nouns though, sometimes words like “Elim” or the changing name of the god du jour are folded into the translation to hide the multitheistic, if not polytheistic origins of the religion, though I digress slightly. Even the NIV admits that this is about somebody leading Israel against an Assyrian invasion after all. Micah 1:1 even states outright that Micah prophesies about events during the rein of Kotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, suggesting that Micah was written after all of these prophecies had already been fulfilled. Similar explanation to the early Isaiah stuff.
"do you want to come to my party?"
"nah, that sounds like I'll need to wear pants"
I'm going to try that excuse next time
Definitely going to watch more from Dr. Kipp, the information he gave in this video is invaluable and very interesting on top of that
This man has important bible/reality info ua-cam.com/video/E7Xrc1nL8Xk/v-deo.html
LOL for anybody wondering, the link this guy posted is for some sort of reptilian conspiracy theorist channel
Thanks dude but I already left one cult, don't wanna jump into another one.
jesus fulfills prophecy because he was written that way. I would like someone to look into the supposed census that explained why Jesus was born in Bethlehem. A census that requires you to return to the place you were born to be counted and not where you are is ridiculous. What useful information would you get from that?
This would be like the Polish government taking a census and asking me to fly from the US because grandpa was born in Warsaw. Makes no sense, not gonna happen. Rome didn't conquer the known world being that stupid, but preacher$ suck people in that are.
It's worse than that. It required them to return to where their *ancestors* were born. Which in nonsensical in more ways than I care to type here. But it has been looked at. There's no mention of any census being conducted in the proper timeframe to support the narrative, let alone a nonsensical census that would have disrupted nearly every aspect of daily life throughout the largest empire in the world, with repercussions lasting years.
This man has important bible/reality info ua-cam.com/video/E7Xrc1nL8Xk/v-deo.html
Lee Strobel is like the student that picked the right answer and then changed it to the wrong answer on a test. That is only if his claim of being atheist is true which is unlikely since his claims about atheism are what christians think atheism is like.
Love the series, and especially the Can-Con.
[edit] I also really (honestly) enjoy the amount of research I had to do during this presentation. Dopamine is awesome.
🎉🎄A festive Yuletide, Paul, and to all your viewers.🎄🎉
Love it! Keep up the good work of deconstructing the bible!
Thank you!
Reading the "prophecies" in their literary and historical context was the beginning of the end of my Christian faith. My first hearing of Kipp Davis. He seems every bit as interesting and informative as Christine Hays.
That is high praise. Thank you.
nice! Perfectly relevant to my previous church's explanations
I definitely need the Skeptic's Annotated Bible to study this more. I just cannot retain videos as well as text apparently
Anything, especially the Bible, is useless if it can be 'interpreted' to say whatever you want it to say.
Not useless if you can interpret it to pay for a Gulfstream 5
Always happy to watch Kipp Davis dispense some corrections to the apologists 😁👍
(Edited to correct spelling error)
I really appreciate it, but it's "Davis"...
(unless you are Derek from @Mythvision Podcast, who never properly learned how to talk good).
@@DrKippDavis Sorry, I guess I've lived in Wales too long!
I have now issued my own correction 😉
I’m sure most of us have seen the various memes depicting an Amazon 1st Xmess -
Is Lee going to say that the 3 Wiseguys got lost going way across town to pickup their frankincense and myrrh for il bambino Yeshuah and got lost ?
Why doesn’t Mr Strobel just pray for a new star to form in the heavens to guide him to that hard to find toddler toy ?
Well, Mr Ogia, may you, Ms Q & Smol Cat all have a great Solstice and a merry Xmess 🐈⬛ and a very Hammy New Year !!!
Oy to The World.
Another great video!
Thanks for the video :)
Wow, what an amazing episode! This is gold. Thank you!
Wow, Kipp Davis really knows his stuff. He doesn’t pause or misstep in any way. Lee Stobel would be crushed in a debate with Kipp
While this certainly represents my own research and ideas, I wrote my responses in advance and read them for the video.
Even so, impressively done.
Plus, the content was incredible, well thought through, simple enough for others to follow and, most importantly, compelling
"The book that was written and re-written after the event predicted that exact event! IT'S A MIRACLE!"
The Torah was never rewritten!
@@mrlaw2729 The majority of Biblical scholars believe that the written books were a product of the Babylonian captivity ( c. 6th century BCE), based on earlier written sources and oral traditions, and that it was completed with final revisions during the post-Exilic period ( c. 5th century BCE).
@@stevenpike7857 I've always been taught that Moses wrote the early books inspired by God himself.
Of course you don't believe in the Divine nor in the spiritual.
But im also open minded.
Can you link me Documentaries about this subject? Thanks in advance mante
i always learn something with yall