What are your thoughts on the Boxing style they used to do in the past? Watch next: Olympic Boxer Reacts to your Boxing Training Videos ua-cam.com/video/UOGk_Zc1UOY/v-deo.html
British Bare Knuckle Boxing: appears to be an incarnation of this. I watch it fairly often. They don't hit to the head as much, and have 18 counts. Only 3 rounds, of two minutes, I think. Great vid!
I never thought it was funny looking the way they used to stand. They were basically fighting and I always felt that anytime you're using skills to fight, you do what makes you comfortable.
From my research (for a college paper in an athletic trainer course), gloves were introduced when rich kids started boxing and didn't want marks on their faces. So the trainer had them wear an early version of a boxing glove. The research I found showed the glove disperses the force of a punch, reducing the likelihood of a knockout. However, because the fighter can withstand more blows to the head without being knocked out, the likelihood of brain injury from repeated trauma is increased.
What gloves do is reducing the risk of cuts. I guess because you don't have as punctual force spikes as with your knuckles. Also as said in the video, you can hit harder and more often to the head, because they are protecting your hand. What gloves don't do is prevent force to the head (as they protect the hands it's pretty much the opposite). Force is mass times acceleration. Lets ignore the higher mass the gloves bring, maybe it will even out with the lower acceleration. Anyway, the acceleration the head will suffer from is only slightly reduced by the cushioning, if even. This means equal or at least comparable force to bareknuckle, with less risk of cuts and less risk of breaking hands.
My grandfather was an undefeated amateur boxer with over 50 fights. He was born around 1905. My uncle said they used kid gloves, basically leather gloves with no padding. My uncle said my grandfather won with speed, head movement and knockouts by left hooks to the liver. That makes me think holding the right arm in close to the body was to protect this vulnerable area.
there can be many different reasons why you do that some mma fighters use such stances, and traditional karate, muay thai has its own version, or to be more accurate muay boran. In what country or city did your grandad box ? That is an super interesting story 😀 one uncle of mine wrestled a bear on the fair that some gipsy had and won, then bear wanted to hit him but gipsy stopped him 😂
The bully at my middle school was an undefeated champ who had studied 19 years of boxing, karate, wing chun and Brazilian ju jitsu. He was an absolute beast with over 300 dozen wins under his belt and over 20 confirmed kills by ripping out hearts. One time I made a hilarious joke about his mom looking like a Michael jackson because they are both dead and he came right at me. About to do a roundhouse kick so powerful Joe rogan would cum in his pants. And I just fuckin shot him. 19 years martial arts < 2 hours of fortnite
@@paranormallettuce7227 bwahahahaha! I've never played. Did knock out a huge drunk offensive lineman at my college with a rock when he attacked me at a party. Rock > Giant.
Old boxing matches were far more like modern MMA matches just fought in a sand ring(with far loose safety regulations) and lasted as long as the fighters wanted. Usually, it wasn't a well-organized affair and was locally arranged in carnivals and other public gatherings and it was also illegal in the US for a long time so it wasn't nearly as well known there as in Europe. Most boxing matches of the early 1800s were conducted under the "London Rules," which were based on a set of rules laid down by an English boxer, Jack Broughton, in 1743. The basic premise of the Broughton Rules, and the subsequent London Prize Ring Rules, was that a round in a fight would last until a man went down. And there was a 30-second rest period between each round. Following the rest period, each fighter would have eight seconds to come to what was known as the "scratch line" in the middle of the ring. The fight would end when one of the fighters could not stand, or could not make it to the scratch line. Theoretically, there was no limit to the number of rounds fought, so fights could go on for dozens of rounds. And because the fighters punched with bare hands, they could break their own hands by attempting knock-out punches to their opponent's heads. So matches tended to be long battles of endurance.
@@jmgonzales7701 Check out Shootboxing. It's in Japan. It's basically standing Vale Tudo. They wear 6oz boxing gloves. Kicking, punching, suplexing and chokes from standing are all legal.
@@ddwfw They regularly have amateur events where kids are training. It's limited because they stick to light weight classes. We may see a resurgence in 10-15 years once those kids grow up.
This is very interesting ! It's interesting to see that when there was no gloves, the primary target was the body and grappling was involved, old boxing stances are astoundingly similar to old forms of karate. Also in old Muay Thai and Muay Boran there used to be stances like this, before boxing gloves became the norm.
I allways tought that it was for the chinese boxers. Karate Uechi Ryu (a traditionalist style) has a similar guard because the first katas came from China. But i really don't know how old chinese box are. Maybe the guard is even older!
Pretty good summary there. I have studied classical pugilism for quite some years now and you are on the money. Back in the day boxing more like Lethwei. You had throws such as the cross buttock to land your opponent on their head. You also had locks and chancery allowing you to hold your opponent and hit him. Key targets were the eyes since a blinded opponent - due to the knuckles - could not fight. The other target was the 'mark' or the solar plexus as we call it. You can hit full force to this so they had the rear hand there protecting it as it was the key knockout shot. Another one from the LPR days was a long hook impacting behind the ear with the large knuckles of the hand. Oh, and rounds were not timed. They ended when someone went down and then had 30 secs to 'come up to scratch'. You had a picture of Jem Mace as a former champion of England (Gypsy Jem Mace). He used to take bets in pubs that he could punch through the 1" thick oak door panels.....
My research suggests they fought in this stance because taking a backward step in a fight was considered cowardice so you would keep your opponent at farthest arms length reach possible. black fighters began fighting off the back foot using footwork to the point it made backpeddeling necessary just to cope nevermind win
Five things need to be mentioned additionally: 1) Stepping in with the punch was something that was a thing (you see it later with for example Jack Dempsey matches). 2) Other punches were permitted such as hammer strikes, back fists etc. 3) My two cents but feet were more firmly planted to generate more powerful blows while fighting bare knuckled (rather than swivelling on the balls of the feet for power generation, something which you can do with gloves more easily). 4) Vertical punches were far more common. 5) It's far easier to dodge punches while bare knuckle.
Also jack Dempsey put his strong side forward, Bruce lee studied him extensively and Bruce had his strong side forward as well, I didn’t see this mentioned in the video
My only issue is with number 5, and even then it might just be a different perspective. I think it's easier to slip & dodge the big gloves. Mainly cause they are pretty easy to see coming. But for that same reason, it's even easier block gloves, and pretty hard to block punches.
@@dacedebeer2697 that is quite debatable, since usually a boxer don't doge what he sees coming, but he expect is coming, also without gloves you will instinctively shoot punches a lot slower and also for blocking if you learn to use your elbow to block at a distance I guess it might be devastating for the opponent
Around here, street fighters that learned to fight on the street - as opposed to learning to box and then transferring the skillset to the street - still use a similar kind of stance and principles (minus the leaning back, usually). It obviously works for gloveless, full-contact fighting, and in a quite natural way.
I trained in Japanese Jutitsu and the only difference between the stance from the image in this video, and what we used was that our hands were opened instead of a fist and the head was bent forward a little, but the rest seemed almost identical to what we did.
On the "lack of footwork," I think it was another optimization for the conditions. Fighting on sand or grass, you don't get the firm grip and level surface necessary to make modern style footwork effective. It's hard to even judge how nuanced their footwork was because we don't have 19th century tape. If something worked, they probably adopted it. We talk about the 'evolution' of technique over centuries as progress, but as you say, 90% of the difference is just changing context. I'd wager a few decades is enough for a vibrant community to bring the art to the point of diminishing returns, where the question becomes solely the talent and dedication of the athletes and trainers.
Also the erly boxers didn't lack footwork but it wasn't learned from boxing but from armed combat. Even in 17th, 18th and 19th century most man was trainned in melee armed combat so probably nobody even thought that writting down a footwork manual for boxing was needed because everyone understand the importance of moving in fight and how distance, spacing and step rhytm work from their military education or even civilian formal education. Similar think happened with armed combat manuals, because nobody have written the basic in a book, because it was expected that you know the basics, you know how to hold, strike and block with a weapon, so the historic sources we have are mostly about advanced technique or specific situations.
@@kevingray4980 I think the most important part you mentioned is that they didn't have cameras back then. For all we know they could just have footwork similar to modern martial artists, one frame can't tell much about how it'll work in motion. Hell, if you take pictures at the right moment even in the fight, many professional boxers today would look like they don't know a thing about footwork. Or they can be completely outlandish to us due to different fighting rules but a single picture would leave a lot of speculation.
@minhducnguyen9276 The footwork was the same up until recently. Try Tony Canzoneri for example, he fought in the same stance as the guys from the 1800s while fighting in the 1930s. You also have Bob Fitszimon who fought just out of the 1800s. Back then they didn't like to hop around. More like to step to keep their balance and like to step into their punches.
@@marektoufar9690 It's like the lack of physical training in old boxers compared to today. In the old days, the boxers had hard manual labor jobs, so they were already strong as hell. It was just a matter of learning technique.
If you simply turn the lead hand over, rather than holding it in the supinated position while extended, it's almost a karate stance, if/when the stance is bladed. Stephen "Wonder Boy" comes to mind. He keeps that lead hand extended like that with the palm facing out. There are still glimpses of that old school style in kickers.
@@k9aid514 More like Karate changed when it was introduced to Japan. Having to differentiate itself from Judo while at the same time taking huge inspirations like the dogi and ranked belts meant that technique had to change and the grappling got toned down and even forgotten while striking was encouraged. Karate's change due to boxing's influence was a tad further down the track.
It's actually a really good stance if you're taller than your opponent or if you have a longer wingspan. My cousin is like 6'3 and does this stance. It helps him maintain a sort of distance against his opponent denying them the ability to reach in for a hit
The stance thing is interesting in that Mendoza and some of his peers advocated a more squared stance with both hands held up to protect the head during the time when grappling was allowed, and the bladed stance we usually consider the "old-timey pugilist's stance" actually became popular when grappling was removed from boxing.
@@gregquinn7817 Yeah, that's how I interpret it too. Other sources from the 18th century have images that look more like the classic boxing stance with the front hand slightly forward, but Mendoza seems to not favor either hand over the other.
@@chonzen1764 having your hands out to parry/push off is how you want to defend upperbody grappling because if you keep your hands close you they can get their hands closer which allows a better chance and under hooks, over hooks or body lock/bear hugs.
The part about grappling makes sense to me. Having your hands lower helps defend against take downs. You see a lot of mma fighters use a modified version of the left hand extended/rights hand chambered at the cheek. Dan Henderson was famous for it.
This stance still works exceptionally well: 1) Front arm for distance creation, stuffing forward momentum with a collarbone press/check, guards that side by position and distance, good for clapping an ear on a fallback step if they overextend with their own jab. 2) Rear arm is essentially always loaded and ensures your strongest punch from a pure physics perspective is always ready to go, protects all the bones of the thorax, can easily be dropped and turned to protect other rib cage from kicks and strikes, then immediately brought back leaving very little opening without having your opponent expose themselves well into your guard 3) keeps you in a very strong hiploading position, giving you the ability to always have a heavy kick threat and or knee ready to be delivered if they try to "shoot" your legs. With proper footwork and distance control, it's arguably better than a lot of even modern stances. This is particularly true when you dont have rules to protect you -- the modern squared up stance is really bad in a street fight because you loose all kick threat and it opens you up to being double-leg thrown or sweeped insanely bad, which, now that I think about it is basically how I've seen every decent boxer Ive known lose a fight, actually.
Every decent boxer lose to who another boxer. Every stance has a weakness it's all about the person using the stance. This old stance used today in modern boxing you get youe ass kicked.
keeping your arm outstretched like that in a street fight is just asking for it get taken...It's almost like we evolved the forms from the past to be better or something huh. Unless a boxer can run away get a weapon or control the ability to land a knockout punch at will, a grappler will dismantle them in most cases.
@@formdoggie5 Lmao, unless you can just knock me out in one shot on approach or just float around out of range, you seem to underestimate how easy a takedown can be and overestimate your own ability. Most people believe themselves to be more superior than they actually are anyway, there is always someone better that can do things out of the norm, but that's why we call them outliers. Please though, take things on the internet even more seriously. It is hilarious.
I third this. I would find it interesting to hear what an "average boxer's answer" would be to exotic stuff like the animal kung fu styles and other exotic stuff based on theory rather than practice lol.
The square stance gives you a lot more power in both hand but your footwork is a little slower, the traditional boxing/kickboxing stance gives you better movement but a weaker forward hand hence the reliance on jabs as feelers and keeping distance. You can use both stances in a fight strategically. The Peakaboo stance is a really interesting one, it makes you look really vulnerable but when you move in close the person is already in an excellent position to uppercut you.
Muay Thai "PRACTITIONER" ??? is that what we are calling ourselves these days ? LOL When i trained Muay Thai we didn't have bullshit, it was pure, it was hard and we didn't bother with fancy titles we simply called ourselves (as the art called us) Muay Thai Fighters How times have changed
You should review the book Championship Streetfighting: Boxing as a Martial Art by Ned Beaumont. It’s a funny, quick read packed with interesting boxing history and an explanation of why boxers of old used the style they did.
The golden age stance makes me think of fencing, with one hand extended towards the opponent like a rapier, and the other kept close to the body like a buckler.
boxing at least modern boxing comes from british swordfighting systems all those guys in the 1700s were probably doing singlestick since they were kids
Tony made a lot of good points in the video. One of the reasons the fighters back then held the one arm to the side and across the middle of their body was to protect against liver shots (if right handed) and to protect the “mark” (solar plexus). A good punch to either spot could result in a knockout. Vertical fist punches tended to result in less broken hands and less tweaked wrists, as striking with the last three knuckles like Dempsey says lines the bones up better. One reason the fight‘s back then had so many rounds is that a fall would end the round. Sometimes if you wanted to take a break, you could grapple and throw your opponent, thus ending the round. Some of the rounds didn’t last very long due to a knock down or a throw. Of course, seven hours is a heck of a long fight, no matter how many breaks you get. They were some tough people back then for sure.
I absolutely enjoyed your accent. Not trying to sound youtubish for the masses but rather enjoying the portrayal of fights as you spoke. Some true frontman attitude right there. I'm not even into such sports, just stumbled upon this.
I love this video especially since I've been watching old boxers. Tony is there any way you could please break down Joe Lewis's deadly right hand and the funky way he threw it and lifted his back right foot when throwing it. I'm still figuring out WHAT EXACTLY and how did he have that much power behind that punch. Love your videos I appreciate all your hard work on these videos for us!
It's more of the whipping motion of your hips suddenly squaring back up. If you watch a leg kick thrown with a fighter's rear leg, you'll notice they often rotate their forward leg to the outside just before throwing it. It gives their kick alot more power bc it allows the rotating hips to work like a stretched rubber band suddenly being released. It is the same principle behind the punch or throwing a baseball tho.
Like Jackson Gatlin told you, he threw that punch like a fastball pitcher and he did it with perfect timing and devastating power. When the hips turn just so and that shift of weight leads the right hand with perfect timing, a punch can go off like a bomb. Tyson did it, Ali's so-called "Anchor Punch" in Liston II was an example (except thrown more off the back foot). When the weight shifts well, you'll often see the back right foot get light. Louis just did it better than almost everyone.
@@mrw1208 I (and many others) do a similar thing when bowling. Most bowlers face the pins squarely, approach the lane, and the end of their slide and release of the ball happens at the same time. However, I approach the lane almost perpendicular to the pins and I still have the ball lifted high behind me when my slide stops. High backswing+ball dropping while hips turning hard to get squared up with the pins gives a much more fast and powerful throw with high revolutions on the ball. It works well for me and I'm sure the rotation of hips technique can be applied in many sports for increased speed and power.
Correct. And this is why the guard in eg karate still looks like this and why it protects the fist both with hand conditioning (makiwara) and favouring straight punches. It assumes no gloves. This is not well understood.
Thank you for covering this. House of Devlin and Pugilisticus Britannicus have good videos on UA-cam about these old techniques. Truly a lost art that doesn't get the spotlight it deserves. Also, American Prize Ring on UA-cam actually does fights under the London Prize Ring ruleset.
I think this really expresses the difference fighting sports in a way.. Because rules create a foundation for the fighting style.. Like these guys, with no round limits, and not wanting to risk breaking their hands, they leave their face very exposed to facilitate essentially just beating each other's body to a pulp until someone gives up or cannot continue. These guys are very tough but it's just a completely different sport, they wouldn't last long in a modern boxing ring and a modern boxer wouldn't survive against these guys either. I wonder if they used karate-style ways of conditioning their hands
The idea they didn't hit each other in the face is a myth, but they absolutely did do hand conditioning. Toughening the skin by soaking the hands in brine was common, and the simple act of doing all their bag work without gloves or wraps would have had a massive conditioning effect on the bones and muscles of the hands.
IIRC I've heard that they hit each other in the face plenty, but would do so either more conservatively than most boxers today or would actually use open palm strikes.
This is a very interesting topic. I've always wondered why the old time boxers used that stance. Those guys were tough as nails. They would go until someone got knocked out, physically couldn't take any more damage or they became to exhausted to go on. Thanks for posting! 👍✌
@@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149 I don't need to look it up - it's a bad simile; old boots are 'tough'; cheap steaks are 'tough'; nails are 'hard'. . .you would look stupid asking for 'tough' nails in a hardware store, because a steel nail is not something one could apply the description 'tough' to, so whoever is using the expression is just parroting stuff they've heard used erroneously elsewhere
@@GaZonk100 I see what you're getting at, though I'd say you could certainly call a nail tough. Especially the older, larger, more robust nails. They could certainly withstan quite a beating (nails are quite literally designed to after all) and could handle rather rough conditions. That sounds like toughness to me. And in any case It's an expression. It's meaning goes beyond mere practical reality.
@@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149 marginal. . .I'll grant you a pass this time, but please in future try to choose turns of phrase which when employed as intensifiers, hew as closely as possible to lived experience, lol
Tony Jeffries, I learned classical Shaolin Kung-Fu. We also teach a similar type of guard for fighting. We have many guards taught from fist to palms but the old boxing guard is similar to our most basic fighting guard. The fighting rules of engagement taught to me were that headshots were not as common for friendly exchanges in Chinese martial arts. Very interesting to see old-school boxers and how they held their hands. We can also use the front arm to help gauge distance from the opponent.
That's kind of like my stance in Sanda practice. more of a bladed/side stance. I'm pretty tall so I keep my lead arm and my lead leg extended for jabs and sidekicks to keep distance. My Shifu is helping me with my form.
Not really into historical boxing myself, but Bartitsu was originally developed in England in 1898-1902 and footwork was king back then too, and not only for the Savate kicks and cane work it included, but as well for the basics of boxing. So I am pretty sure that foot work as king back in the golden days for boxing too. But considering how many people forget about foot work even today ... I am sure that problem was at least just as common back then.
Tony, well said! You have no idea how delighted I am to hear somebody say (more or less) what I have always thought. I raised this very same point before (on another site) and nobody got it, the armchair warriors were out in numbers but not in any kind of force I would be worrying about?. The difference between fighting with gloves and bare-knuckle is massive. One well-timed jab (without gloves) can knock somebody on their arse, if you consider the angle of the 'old fighters' they were not set up for a jab so much as a jabbing 'undercut', you would get that fist straight into your teeth, lips and philtrum (lower nose), an awful blow, just one might settle the battle because you might have been knocked down, spitting teeth, blood pouring back your nostrils and eyes just teared up so you can't see properly. To the people who never fought full-contact and say 'that's old school' I say there was a very good reason and you should be glad you personally never got 'schooled' I can honestly say I 'paid my dues' in sweat and blood and broken bones but 'eff me backwards, I could never come close to what some of those fighters were, my god! That is a good point about gloves and head guards too. Just like the USA footballers, the protection of helmets just meant they get hit hard for longer. Their is no boxer I know that wears his gloves in the street, as much as I love boxing as a sport, I have never considered it wasn't a lethal martial art that had been led astray?
Strangers that are far from box: "Punching someone without gloves can cause damage to their head!" Pro boxers: "Punching someone without gloves can hurt my hands"
From what I understand, the older style was more about protecting yourself from body shots rather then the head. When it came to bare knuckle vs the head, the bones in the hand will break against the skull most of the time. I’ve been told by a bud that gloves add weight to the punch. Adding more force while also protecting the hands an lessening the chances of cutting, which is why Modern Boxing focuses on guarding the head rather then the body cause of the gloves saving the hands.
The force of the punch doesn't come from the weight of the hands. Rocky Marciano has one of the smallest hands in his division and yet he KOs his opponents left and right. It's all about the hips and how fast your can tense your muscles at the moment of impact.
I know that it all the real power comes from the foot work. I was just referring to what a buddy brought up that gloves add weight to the punch. It might not be much, depending on the size of the gloves it would make all the difference. Gloves can still cut, while Liston broke a man’s jaw with them.
Real fighters don't need to keep their guard up and chin down we can just move our head out of the way. It seems rare for anyone to fight like that these days? Everyone just keeps their hands up and hides their head behind? Pretty boring to watch in my opinion.
I can understand not tucking in the chin, or protecting your temple for MMA or street fights because it constricting if not second nature. Thing it common for modern boxers just to make them a smaller target ideally. Worked for Mayweather, but bare knuckled like the above, they still cover their chin. Each there own really.
My answer to the question before having watched your explanation: In the old way the arms point directly towards the target and do not have to be re-adjusted to hit right away. Additionally a fist seen from the front is way less visible than fists raised in a modern guard position, so it is harder for the oponent to tell if a punch is coming. Now into the video: punching the skull with bare hands? Bad idea. As you said: high risk of hurting your hand. Punch jaw angle. Much safer for the hands as it is a softer target. In fact a k.o. happens way less often in bare knuckle boxing.
Old-school boxing concepts still show up from time to time. George Foreman's "long guard" style and Rorberto Duran's "punching wrestler" styles would have been well at home in the older days of boxing, methinks (just modified to account for the lack of wraps and gloves.
Something not mentioned is that old timey boxers didn’t really duck and weave. You could block punches but it was considered unsporting to dance around. When slipping became a thing, the guard moved back towards the body
As someone who boxes a bit myself I can get how not using gloves may actually be less damaging. The gloves give you the freedom to throw every punch full force without injury to your hand. But punching without it you're way more cautious as a full force jap or swing hurts or can even break something; especially against a hard skull. It's also more concentrated while a gloves has a much larger surface area causing the punch to hit more of you than a fist. That extra force a boxer can add into a punch is often more than any protection the glove padding will give you who gets hit with it; esp when every punch isn't held back. You feel the wallop on every hit when you spar. I got knocked in the head twice recently by a decent fighter in a spar, and I was wearing head gear and still had vertigo for like 2 days. I've been punched raw in the head before and it didn't have as much impact.
It's like when I was playing rugby we saw way less significant injuries than the (american)football team, the pads made people too comfortable launching themselves in football
I've never been in a situation for it, but I always wondered if a punch to the head could be defeated by just presenting the arch of my forehead to the incoming fist. I guess it's the followup that would worry me if I ever did that.
The less damage to the bone and soft tissue, the more of that force is transferred through as kinetic energy, shaking the brain and head on the spine, and leading to brain injury. And as you rightly say, punching with gloves incurs less damage to the hand, allowing boxers to hit harder, which transfers even more force directly into the brain.
Thanks coach Tony! it was a great history I learned from boxing👍, a man can fight that long for 7hrs, without refusing to give up, now I believed that man's will, will make a difference in his life.
Brilliant video, man. I have this old book, I can't remember the title, but it has all these ringside reports from the golden age of boxing, and yeah, while there were many horrific strikes to the head and face, there were also many, many descriptions of how people would break their fingers or hands, so indeed there must have been a kind of "sweet spot" people would aim for, where they're striking hard enough to end a match, without destroying their bones in the process. Brilliant content as always.
Wow, what a great video! I've always wonder why the rigid stance with the inverted fists. This was very interesting and informative Tony. I love to watch black and white 15 rounds old fights. My 3 favorite all time pugilists are Kid Gavilan, Wilfredo Benitez and most recently Andy Lee.
Just as a note from someone who does historical martial arts---most old sources don't include footwork because it was assumed you were learning as someone with a background in the sport. Footwork was usually an assumed skill in these types of texts.
From what I've heard from FightTips (I believe, it's been a while), that old boxing stance in Ireland was also implemented to focus on palmstrikes and scratching. I might be remembering this wrong though.
As someone who learned boxing and kung fu if I wasn't wearing gloves and I could Palm strike I would switch my hand stances because it's almost identical to Kung Fu as I know it
Saw the fight tips video. He was wrong and later admitted it as i recall. They preferred to strike with fists. The palming thing was a dirty trick. It was legal but not primary. Gloved boxers also do it as trick, thoughts illegal
Wiki: “On April 6, 1893, Bowen and Jack Burke fought the longest fight in history… The fight lasted 110 rounds over seven hours and 19 minutes (each round lasting three minutes”
This is one of my favorite channels!!! I always wondered about this stance! I knew it had something to do with gloves but I had NO IDEA ABOUT BOXERS BEING ABLE TO GRAPPLE!!! So so cool!
In the early days, there were often exhibitions at local fairs where the fighter would do sword, stick, and fighting/grappling challenges, sometimes one after the other. Jack Broughton (mentioned in the video) was famous for beating the Prince of Wales in a small sword fight. He was also notorious for focusing on punches to the floating rib, and his love of kicking ("purring") his opponents once he grappled them down. He was considered the first to combine the grappling kicking he learnt from his mentor James Figg, with new, more effective punching techniques. These guys would have been frightening to fight, especially as medical care was basically stitches, brandy, and knives. You broke your body back then, you stayed broke. I don't think any modern fighter would agree to fight in similar conditions. Heck even MMA has an understanding that death/maiming is a terrible thing, whereas for the early bareknuckle guys, maiming/breaking your opponent was just what you did.
My thought is that Queensbury destroyed the European martial arts with his rules for boxing. It was once a full fledged martial art like a hands focused karate (before karate was broken in half to remove most of it's grappling.) There are a couple of mma fighters who use classic boxing stances. It allows for high volume of punches using less gas than modern boxing. It also had take down defense.
This video and Jesse Enkemps video are very informative on the old boxing style. I practice karate and you immediately notice this stance get used a lot. It is actually more versatile than a modern boxing stance or mai tai stance because of the balance distribution. this allows for all around performance in punching, kicking and movement. Where as boxing is best for punching and movement and Mai tai is best for defense, and striking, especially close quarters. Mai tai guys use kicks elbows and knees that can basically one shot you and have a very affective defense through hand placement and low center of gravity but when it comes to moving in and out they are limited because there feet placement is very stocky. Mai tai is probably the best martial art for fighting in the ring because you can't run away from your opponent. With karate and boxing you can move around a lot more and in an open field have an advantage in a fight as long as you keep good distance management. Boxing also can be better because even though kicks are always stronger than punches they can be countered and become a detriment when you miss. Kungfu is best for weapons applications and is such a large study of martial arts that it some ways diverges from practical fighting by over emphasizing certain fighting philosophies that are affective and interesting but aren't affective unless you have very good fighting strategy beyond the necessary strategy needed for other martial arts.
Well after a quick google it is 1893 where the longest match of 110 rounds took place… I mean between reading the line and editing the text in you would think that obvious error would be caught
Just just showed up as a random video to watch, and I'm glad I watched it. Not a boxer myself but I do love the sport so it was cool to watch this history lesson..
Years ago I read several books on boxing history and the explanation I remember for this particular hand position was because it was considered cowardly or unmanly to move your head to avoid punches. I don't remember if the rules reflected this, but they would probably be spoken to by the referee if they did this. This "sword and shield" type fighting is seen in karate which was highly influenced by this style of boxing when karate was evolving into what it is today.
Now that you mention it, it's entirely possible to check straights and roundhouse punches USING your head. Possible but super rare to find somebody even entertaining the idea today. maaaybe that was a big thing back then?
Very good video. Old Pugilists of the 18th and 19th Century did condition their hands and knuckles similar to some karate styles. Also their striking technique was bit different to modern Boxing and they tried to land more bodyshots. Also Hammerfists and Backfists were allowed among a lot of other stuff. When you check out the Broughton Rules introduced 1743 by Jack Broughton, the student of famous James Figg, then you see that more techniques were allowed than prohibited. Athough the fists were their main weapons, the ruleset did let them do elbow strikes and headbutts. And more importantly, they did wrestling techniques like the cross-buttock, backheel and other things. Punching in the clinch, rabbit-punches and other things considered a foul or "dirty boxing" today, were allowed back then. Famous Daniel Mendoza was beaten under these rules, because his opponent grabbed Mendoza´s long hair (many Prizefighters preferred shaving their heads because of that) and punched him into submission. So many other techniques were allowed, that the old Pugilists had to adress other than today´s boxers. Many fighters had to take care of their hands, because fighting was not their main income. Some were like "professionals", with a rich person financing their fights, but many had to work besides their fighting. Imagine you have broken hands and then your main income as a carpenter, blacksmith, dock worker etc. is at risk. One important points about the many rounds they count back then: A round ended, when a fighter was down on his knees, so some did use a throw to end a round and get a short break (plus create some damage) or they stumbled, got knocked down a bit and went down on one knee or such. So do not imagine these 100 rounds being like 100 2 or 3 minute rounds. But fights could take long and the fighters maiming each other slowly with bare knuckles. So the stance has various reasons: It was coming from the art of fencing, so fighting with Backsword and Smallsword, which the early Pugilists took the theory for fencing with the fists from. Therefore they used a lot of parrys or blocks, like in Karate, using the forearm to parry. Also when they were striking, they often did a lunge, so like a long fencing falling step to get power behind. Again this guard had also the reason to better protect against bodyshots, but also to prevent grappling attempts better. However these old bw-photos show often later 19th Century fighters. In the older days of Broughton and Mendoza, so 1700 - 1840s, they often used closer guards depending on style and preference. Daniel Mendoza was known for his more square and crouched stance. Also because he was a lighter fighter in a a time, when they had no weight classes. So this all plays a role.
Happy to help mate. If u don’t mind, could u please share this vid on ya social media please. Will really help me out :) All good if not 👊🏻 You can check all my videos here: ua-cam.com/users/TonyJeffries1videos
I’ve always been confused by the wing chun stance but it looks remarkably similar to the old boxing stance. I wonder how a lot of traditional martial arts styles would look like today if they kept evolving with gloves
Aye, that’s very true. Another element to the Wing Chun stance is that they trained the same system with the butterfly swords historically (less so these days, obviously), which also informed their use of the ‘chain punch’ when unarmed. Imagining a pair of those short single-edged swords in the stances they use really does help make sense of it, especially if fighting in confined spaces like tight alleys and hallways. Sometimes all you need is a little extra context!
The old English boxing guard doesn’t really exist anymore because, as you said, of the advent of heavy hands punching with gloves. However, a variant exist does exist in Muay Thai in the form of the long guard. This is great at keeping your opponent away from you, particularly if they’re heavy clinchers, which is legal in Muay Thai
In beginning stance for straight toward opponent as it was easy to connect with leading hand if opponent tryed to close cap and punch hook.They have to give it out and turn othher side more towards opponent because of poor referees.Even kicks and knees to groins wasnt allowed referee was often sheriff,bartender or somebody who had bet in fight so they didnt give shit if their guy gave some knee to groins.
You still see it every now and then with savateurs who are playing in mixed environment and want some protection against the shoot. The shoot is still dangerous, but against this stance, you've got to worry about that heavy right coming in on you or timing you for a guillotine.
This was really cool! I can really see its influence in Bartitsu! What are your thoughts Oleksandr Usyk? He's become something of a favorite of mine since I learned about him a few months ago.
The old school Okinawa karate styles often adopted this kind of stance too. Same deal as 18th century boxing - no hand protection, kicks, holding and trapping, clinching and grappling, throws and all kinds of dirty shit and let's see who's the last guy standing. People kind of didn't think about tommorow that much in the olden days, it seems. 😄
Isaac Newton, as well as being a serious alchemist, hardcore theologian and part time physicist was also a fine pugilist. You inspire my curiosity about the rules he competed under :) The stance change is, as you point out, significantly due to fighting with pillows on the hands. The first time I, as a seasoned Karateka and bare-knuckle brawler got conned into a match wearing those things, it did not go well. Never again. Never! And seeing that boxers have trouble with their hands, the hand-hardening training I did as a youngster should be standard. I could and did punch incoming elbows, feet, knees and fists very effectively. Hands that have been correctly conditioned can take it. Delivering hard head shots really is not a problem. And now, at 60, my hands still get used as mallets when I do woodwork yet are sensitive enough for the work I do as a master of the tantric arts.
"my hands still get used as mallets when I do woodwork yet are sensitive enough for the work I do as a master of the tantric arts." That definitely goes to my "Pick-up Lines For Halloween" folder I'm in awe
@@jst3455 hitting a floor-mounted flexible plank is good.. sharp but light impacts when you miss the rhythm of the timing. Hitting stuff generally .. working up to harder. wood, steel, concrete .. When walking a beach, pick up two stones and knock them to break everything in one hand to sand, then get another rock and do it again with the other hand. Also at the beach .. punch the sand, especially the firm sand near the water. And, of course, never use gloves or wrist support on a punch bag.
What I find interesting about this stance is that it is very close to a karateka's stance, especially the likes of Shotokan Karate. The main difference is that karate would use this to block and counter the opponent. Your head is a lot less likely to be hit because your guard is more setup to intercept and counter. It creates time for the fighter to lure them in. It's a very effective way to fight.
@@lemagicbaguette1917 the beautiful thing about this position is how much range it can create. You have time to intercept an attacker and counter them and reduce your chances of being hit.
1300 years ago, sumo was MMA. Punching kicking grappling and everyting else. but a fighter got killed, great big tall dude nicknamed "the Sharp Footed". He ran into a guy sharper-footed than he was. the emperor ruled that from then on, only throwing was allowed. Like Broughton eliminating some of the nastier stuff from boxing.
About your point about protecting the hands while bare knuckle. The movie Gladiator (1992) shows this when the main character who has always used gloves gets challenged to a bare knuckle fight against an old school boxer (Brian Dennehy) and the first punch the main character throws, Brian's character lowers his head and the main character breaks his hand on his forehead.
Thanks Tony, we like to think that we today are better and brighter than folks in the past. Your Video is a great demonstration that if you know the realities of the time, people often had good reasons to do things that might seem silly today. 111 Rounds.. Just amazing.
In those days - 'Queens' were mostly in the closet - and so with limited elbow room the average fighter stood like the men in these pictures. I thank you.
My father was on the Harvard Boxing team. Taught me boxing as a kid. I enjoyed putting the gloves on and sparring. But I never really had the heart to be a fighter. Some of the descriptions Tony makes are why I lost that will to go in and do what ever it takes, regardless of your self or your opponent. But I respect true fighters.
Great analysis- thanks Tony. When it came to footwork, however, Dan Mendoza used it to his advantage, beating men twice his size. His Achilles' heel was his long hair. John Jackson grabbed that, apparently, with the inevitable conclusion..
I cannot say this emphatically enough: PHENOMENAL video!!! Thank you Tony! Big fan, love your videos, and appreciate the information! SUPER interesting! Hope you have a great day man!
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What are your thoughts on the Boxing style they used to do in the past?
Watch next: Olympic Boxer Reacts to your Boxing Training Videos
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I think the boxing style is good for body punches but bad for defense
Bassically its a good style for offense not defense
British Bare Knuckle Boxing: appears to be an incarnation of this. I watch it fairly often. They don't hit to the head as much, and have 18 counts. Only 3 rounds, of two minutes, I think. Great vid!
I never thought it was funny looking the way they used to stand.
They were basically fighting and I always felt that anytime you're using skills to fight, you do what makes you comfortable.
Kindly bring down your speech rate sir.....it will be good for us
Love your video's, Tony. So interesting and informative.
From my research (for a college paper in an athletic trainer course), gloves were introduced when rich kids started boxing and didn't want marks on their faces. So the trainer had them wear an early version of a boxing glove.
The research I found showed the glove disperses the force of a punch, reducing the likelihood of a knockout. However, because the fighter can withstand more blows to the head without being knocked out, the likelihood of brain injury from repeated trauma is increased.
Do you have any specific names or year to share? I would love to read up more or even your research paper
I have heard the opposite. That a glove dispenses the force in a way that causes more shock to the brain.
I think the bare knuckle will also do more cutting wounds to the face which will end the fight sooner
What gloves do is reducing the risk of cuts. I guess because you don't have as punctual force spikes as with your knuckles. Also as said in the video, you can hit harder and more often to the head, because they are protecting your hand.
What gloves don't do is prevent force to the head (as they protect the hands it's pretty much the opposite). Force is mass times acceleration. Lets ignore the higher mass the gloves bring, maybe it will even out with the lower acceleration. Anyway, the acceleration the head will suffer from is only slightly reduced by the cushioning, if even. This means equal or at least comparable force to bareknuckle, with less risk of cuts and less risk of breaking hands.
Your research is fucked up.
Tony corrected himself the second time he mentioned it but when he first said 1983 he meant to say 1893
Was looking for this comment, hahah.
@@JivecattheMagnificent so was I! 🧐
those marbles......
@@JivecattheMagnificent likewise lol
Nah it was 1983 aka the cocaine era where just a few lines and you're going 1100 rounds with the best of them.
My grandfather was an undefeated amateur boxer with over 50 fights. He was born around 1905. My uncle said they used kid gloves, basically leather gloves with no padding. My uncle said my grandfather won with speed, head movement and knockouts by left hooks to the liver. That makes me think holding the right arm in close to the body was to protect this vulnerable area.
there can be many different reasons why you do that some mma fighters use such stances, and traditional karate, muay thai has its own version, or to be more accurate muay boran. In what country or city did your grandad box ? That is an super interesting story 😀 one uncle of mine wrestled a bear on the fair that some gipsy had and won, then bear wanted to hit him but gipsy stopped him 😂
@@denis3208 this was Williamstown, Pennsylvania, USA. My grandfather was a coal miner. The story of your uncle and the bear is fantastic.
Absolutely correct, it’s held the same way in some martial arts fighting
The bully at my middle school was an undefeated champ who had studied 19 years of boxing, karate, wing chun and Brazilian ju jitsu. He was an absolute beast with over 300 dozen wins under his belt and over 20 confirmed kills by ripping out hearts. One time I made a hilarious joke about his mom looking like a Michael jackson because they are both dead and he came right at me. About to do a roundhouse kick so powerful Joe rogan would cum in his pants. And I just fuckin shot him. 19 years martial arts < 2 hours of fortnite
@@paranormallettuce7227 bwahahahaha! I've never played. Did knock out a huge drunk offensive lineman at my college with a rock when he attacked me at a party. Rock > Giant.
Old boxing matches were far more like modern MMA matches just fought in a sand ring(with far loose safety regulations) and lasted as long as the fighters wanted.
Usually, it wasn't a well-organized affair and was locally arranged in carnivals and other public gatherings and it was also illegal in the US for a long time so it wasn't nearly as well known there as in Europe.
Most boxing matches of the early 1800s were conducted under the "London Rules," which were based on a set of rules laid down by an English boxer, Jack Broughton, in 1743. The basic premise of the Broughton Rules, and the subsequent London Prize Ring Rules, was that a round in a fight would last until a man went down. And there was a 30-second rest period between each round.
Following the rest period, each fighter would have eight seconds to come to what was known as the "scratch line" in the middle of the ring. The fight would end when one of the fighters could not stand, or could not make it to the scratch line.
Theoretically, there was no limit to the number of rounds fought, so fights could go on for dozens of rounds. And because the fighters punched with bare hands, they could break their own hands by attempting knock-out punches to their opponent's heads. So matches tended to be long battles of endurance.
Man boxing was wild back then, they could basically wrestle. Imagine if some sort of grappling or were allowed in boxing.
@@jmgonzales7701 Check out Shootboxing. It's in Japan. It's basically standing Vale Tudo. They wear 6oz boxing gloves. Kicking, punching, suplexing and chokes from standing are all legal.
@@Gotchism4Life will check it out
@@ddwfw They regularly have amateur events where kids are training. It's limited because they stick to light weight classes. We may see a resurgence in 10-15 years once those kids grow up.
@@ddwfw catch Wrestling, Kudo or Sambo ( Is hard to find a Sambo gym)
This is very interesting ! It's interesting to see that when there was no gloves, the primary target was the body and grappling was involved, old boxing stances are astoundingly similar to old forms of karate. Also in old Muay Thai and Muay Boran there used to be stances like this, before boxing gloves became the norm.
Look close at George Foreman's fights when he's using his "long guard". Same principles on display.
It's like when languages evolved from Latin. Martial arts vernacular!
A lot of traditional martial arts have a lower gaurd. The picture of the guy punching at 1:26 looks just like shaolin.
@@arbogast4950 look up "Kung Fu stances explained." A lot of the low guard positions are also because it translates to the style's main weapon.
I allways tought that it was for the chinese boxers. Karate Uechi Ryu (a traditionalist style) has a similar guard because the first katas came from China. But i really don't know how old chinese box are. Maybe the guard is even older!
They got that “Why I oughta!” stance 😂
you aint lying 😂😂
Nyuk nyuk nyuk-Curly
I thought it was more of a "Bully, you say!" stance.
PUT EM UP SONNY
😂 Perfect description.
This is how they should teach history class
With eye gouges
@@systemSkynet If you get the technique wrong, Tony will give you a 1-2 combo. Basic history class :)
Too bad history teacher only know about political history
@@fikriasrofi5312 I wish they could teach history through fighting styles.
@@StarsAreBright i think it would be unecesarry of general population especially in school
Pretty good summary there. I have studied classical pugilism for quite some years now and you are on the money. Back in the day boxing more like Lethwei. You had throws such as the cross buttock to land your opponent on their head. You also had locks and chancery allowing you to hold your opponent and hit him. Key targets were the eyes since a blinded opponent - due to the knuckles - could not fight. The other target was the 'mark' or the solar plexus as we call it. You can hit full force to this so they had the rear hand there protecting it as it was the key knockout shot. Another one from the LPR days was a long hook impacting behind the ear with the large knuckles of the hand. Oh, and rounds were not timed. They ended when someone went down and then had 30 secs to 'come up to scratch'. You had a picture of Jem Mace as a former champion of England (Gypsy Jem Mace). He used to take bets in pubs that he could punch through the 1" thick oak door panels.....
love this comment!
Great comment, man. Have you read Kirk Lawson's book on the grappling used in old boxing matches? Awesome read.
@@JivecattheMagnificent I have, yes! Very well researched.
@@DaveCollins123 Hahah, no problem! I have it, since it was recommended by the EnglishMartialArts channel!
My research suggests they fought in this stance because taking a backward step in a fight was considered cowardice so you would keep your opponent at farthest arms length reach possible. black fighters began fighting off the back foot using footwork to the point it made backpeddeling necessary just to cope nevermind win
Five things need to be mentioned additionally:
1) Stepping in with the punch was something that was a thing (you see it later with for example Jack Dempsey matches).
2) Other punches were permitted such as hammer strikes, back fists etc.
3) My two cents but feet were more firmly planted to generate more powerful blows while fighting bare knuckled (rather than swivelling on the balls of the feet for power generation, something which you can do with gloves more easily).
4) Vertical punches were far more common.
5) It's far easier to dodge punches while bare knuckle.
Also jack Dempsey put his strong side forward, Bruce lee studied him extensively and Bruce had his strong side forward as well, I didn’t see this mentioned in the video
I think than they were well planted also for increase balance in grappling, so more close to judokas and greco wrestlers
My only issue is with number 5, and even then it might just be a different perspective. I think it's easier to slip & dodge the big gloves. Mainly cause they are pretty easy to see coming. But for that same reason, it's even easier block gloves, and pretty hard to block punches.
@@dacedebeer2697 I think that is very true
@@dacedebeer2697 that is quite debatable, since usually a boxer don't doge what he sees coming, but he expect is coming, also without gloves you will instinctively shoot punches a lot slower and also for blocking if you learn to use your elbow to block at a distance I guess it might be devastating for the opponent
Tony my man, this is amazing info! So valuable to understand the history, reasons for rules, and have such an in depth understanding of the sport.
I agree. Thanks Tony! Now I can go back to my coach and give him answers on a subject we talk about and been wondering about. 🥊😉
Around here, street fighters that learned to fight on the street - as opposed to learning to box and then transferring the skillset to the street - still use a similar kind of stance and principles (minus the leaning back, usually). It obviously works for gloveless, full-contact fighting, and in a quite natural way.
I trained in Japanese Jutitsu and the only difference between the stance from the image in this video, and what we used was that our hands were opened instead of a fist and the head was bent forward a little, but the rest seemed almost identical to what we did.
On the "lack of footwork," I think it was another optimization for the conditions. Fighting on sand or grass, you don't get the firm grip and level surface necessary to make modern style footwork effective. It's hard to even judge how nuanced their footwork was because we don't have 19th century tape. If something worked, they probably adopted it.
We talk about the 'evolution' of technique over centuries as progress, but as you say, 90% of the difference is just changing context. I'd wager a few decades is enough for a vibrant community to bring the art to the point of diminishing returns, where the question becomes solely the talent and dedication of the athletes and trainers.
Also the erly boxers didn't lack footwork but it wasn't learned from boxing but from armed combat. Even in 17th, 18th and 19th century most man was trainned in melee armed combat so probably nobody even thought that writting down a footwork manual for boxing was needed because everyone understand the importance of moving in fight and how distance, spacing and step rhytm work from their military education or even civilian formal education. Similar think happened with armed combat manuals, because nobody have written the basic in a book, because it was expected that you know the basics, you know how to hold, strike and block with a weapon, so the historic sources we have are mostly about advanced technique or specific situations.
@@marektoufar9690 Yes. Always important to account for assumptions. Teaching the style vs the universals.
@@kevingray4980 I think the most important part you mentioned is that they didn't have cameras back then. For all we know they could just have footwork similar to modern martial artists, one frame can't tell much about how it'll work in motion. Hell, if you take pictures at the right moment even in the fight, many professional boxers today would look like they don't know a thing about footwork. Or they can be completely outlandish to us due to different fighting rules but a single picture would leave a lot of speculation.
@minhducnguyen9276 The footwork was the same up until recently. Try Tony Canzoneri for example, he fought in the same stance as the guys from the 1800s while fighting in the 1930s. You also have Bob Fitszimon who fought just out of the 1800s. Back then they didn't like to hop around. More like to step to keep their balance and like to step into their punches.
@@marektoufar9690 It's like the lack of physical training in old boxers compared to today. In the old days, the boxers had hard manual labor jobs, so they were already strong as hell. It was just a matter of learning technique.
If you simply turn the lead hand over, rather than holding it in the supinated position while extended, it's almost a karate stance, if/when the stance is bladed. Stephen "Wonder Boy" comes to mind. He keeps that lead hand extended like that with the palm facing out. There are still glimpses of that old school style in kickers.
Good analysis. I totally saw Wonder Boy when you mentioned it
boxing was introduced to Japan and changed karate
Also mvp has a very similar low guard stance.
@@k9aid514 More like Karate changed when it was introduced to Japan. Having to differentiate itself from Judo while at the same time taking huge inspirations like the dogi and ranked belts meant that technique had to change and the grappling got toned down and even forgotten while striking was encouraged.
Karate's change due to boxing's influence was a tad further down the track.
@@psychedashell Yes and Jesse the Karate Nerd has addressed this in other videos I was comment on only this
It's actually a really good stance if you're taller than your opponent or if you have a longer wingspan. My cousin is like 6'3 and does this stance. It helps him maintain a sort of distance against his opponent denying them the ability to reach in for a hit
I realized the stance looks similar to Baji Quan
It’s not that different from how every right handed person fights either, jab left for spacing and right for protection and power
Only if you’re freakishly tall for your weigh class tho. Look at Alex Pereira
The stance thing is interesting in that Mendoza and some of his peers advocated a more squared stance with both hands held up to protect the head during the time when grappling was allowed, and the bladed stance we usually consider the "old-timey pugilist's stance" actually became popular when grappling was removed from boxing.
The advent of Queensbury rules was a definite sea change.
Mendoza's stance looks a lot like the Cus D'amato peek a boo stance.
@@gregquinn7817 Yeah, that's how I interpret it too. Other sources from the 18th century have images that look more like the classic boxing stance with the front hand slightly forward, but Mendoza seems to not favor either hand over the other.
Not sure that is correct about avoiding grappling. Throws were allowed but you couldn't go for the legs. All throws had to be greco-roman.
@@chonzen1764 having your hands out to parry/push off is how you want to defend upperbody grappling because if you keep your hands close you they can get their hands closer which allows a better chance and under hooks, over hooks or body lock/bear hugs.
Tony, I love that you did this for us. What an amazing history lesson.
I appreciate it Ron, If u don’t mind, could u please share this vid on ya social media please. Will really help me out :) All good if not 👊🏻
The part about grappling makes sense to me. Having your hands lower helps defend against take downs. You see a lot of mma fighters use a modified version of the left hand extended/rights hand chambered at the cheek. Dan Henderson was famous for it.
Was randomly recommended this video and I gotta say - glad for it. Love boxing but also love your energy Tony, awesome vid man!
Thanks so much Matthew
This stance still works exceptionally well:
1) Front arm for distance creation, stuffing forward momentum with a collarbone press/check, guards that side by position and distance, good for clapping an ear on a fallback step if they overextend with their own jab.
2) Rear arm is essentially always loaded and ensures your strongest punch from a pure physics perspective is always ready to go, protects all the bones of the thorax, can easily be dropped and turned to protect other rib cage from kicks and strikes, then immediately brought back leaving very little opening without having your opponent expose themselves well into your guard
3) keeps you in a very strong hiploading position, giving you the ability to always have a heavy kick threat and or knee ready to be delivered if they try to "shoot" your legs.
With proper footwork and distance control, it's arguably better than a lot of even modern stances. This is particularly true when you dont have rules to protect you -- the modern squared up stance is really bad in a street fight because you loose all kick threat and it opens you up to being double-leg thrown or sweeped insanely bad, which, now that I think about it is basically how I've seen every decent boxer Ive known lose a fight, actually.
Really defends the liver shot KO too
Every decent boxer lose to who another boxer. Every stance has a weakness it's all about the person using the stance. This old stance used today in modern boxing you get youe ass kicked.
@@watching789 ...muai thai and MMA and many kickboxers disagree with you.
keeping your arm outstretched like that in a street fight is just asking for it get taken...It's almost like we evolved the forms from the past to be better or something huh. Unless a boxer can run away get a weapon or control the ability to land a knockout punch at will, a grappler will dismantle them in most cases.
@@formdoggie5 Lmao, unless you can just knock me out in one shot on approach or just float around out of range, you seem to underestimate how easy a takedown can be and overestimate your own ability. Most people believe themselves to be more superior than they actually are anyway, there is always someone better that can do things out of the norm, but that's why we call them outliers.
Please though, take things on the internet even more seriously. It is hilarious.
As a muay Thai practitioner, It would be great to see a pros/cons video of how different stances will fare in a pure boxing match.
I second this.
I third this. I would find it interesting to hear what an "average boxer's answer" would be to exotic stuff like the animal kung fu styles and other exotic stuff based on theory rather than practice lol.
The square stance gives you a lot more power in both hand but your footwork is a little slower, the traditional boxing/kickboxing stance gives you better movement but a weaker forward hand hence the reliance on jabs as feelers and keeping distance. You can use both stances in a fight strategically. The Peakaboo stance is a really interesting one, it makes you look really vulnerable but when you move in close the person is already in an excellent position to uppercut you.
@@goblin-night Tony Jeffries is not an average boxer what are you talking about
Muay Thai "PRACTITIONER" ???
is that what we are calling ourselves these days ? LOL
When i trained Muay Thai we didn't have bullshit, it was pure, it was hard
and we didn't bother with fancy titles
we simply called ourselves (as the art called us) Muay Thai Fighters
How times have changed
You should review the book Championship Streetfighting: Boxing as a Martial Art by Ned Beaumont. It’s a funny, quick read packed with interesting boxing history and an explanation of why boxers of old used the style they did.
Ned beaumont is a nobody lmao. He has never had a fight in his life. Bum.
The golden age stance makes me think of fencing, with one hand extended towards the opponent like a rapier, and the other kept close to the body like a buckler.
The first bare-knuckle heavyweight champion actually started off as a fencer, and that's where he got his stance.
boxing at least modern boxing comes from british swordfighting systems all those guys in the 1700s were probably doing singlestick since they were kids
Tony made a lot of good points in the video. One of the reasons the fighters back then held the one arm to the side and across the middle of their body was to protect against liver shots (if right handed) and to protect the “mark” (solar plexus). A good punch to either spot could result in a knockout. Vertical fist punches tended to result in less broken hands and less tweaked wrists, as striking with the last three knuckles like Dempsey says lines the bones up better. One reason the fight‘s back then had so many rounds is that a fall would end the round. Sometimes if you wanted to take a break, you could grapple and throw your opponent, thus ending the round. Some of the rounds didn’t last very long due to a knock down or a throw. Of course, seven hours is a heck of a long fight, no matter how many breaks you get. They were some tough people back then for sure.
I absolutely enjoyed your accent. Not trying to sound youtubish for the masses but rather enjoying the portrayal of fights as you spoke. Some true frontman attitude right there. I'm not even into such sports, just stumbled upon this.
1983 never seemed further away
1983? or 1893?
I love this video especially since I've been watching old boxers. Tony is there any way you could please break down Joe Lewis's deadly right hand and the funky way he threw it and lifted his back right foot when throwing it. I'm still figuring out WHAT EXACTLY and how did he have that much power behind that punch. Love your videos I appreciate all your hard work on these videos for us!
Watch a baseball player throw a ball, the back leg comes up to get more leverage on your shoulder.
It's more of the whipping motion of your hips suddenly squaring back up. If you watch a leg kick thrown with a fighter's rear leg, you'll notice they often rotate their forward leg to the outside just before throwing it. It gives their kick alot more power bc it allows the rotating hips to work like a stretched rubber band suddenly being released. It is the same principle behind the punch or throwing a baseball tho.
Like Jackson Gatlin told you, he threw that punch like a fastball pitcher and he did it with perfect timing and devastating power. When the hips turn just so and that shift of weight leads the right hand with perfect timing, a punch can go off like a bomb. Tyson did it, Ali's so-called "Anchor Punch" in Liston II was an example (except thrown more off the back foot). When the weight shifts well, you'll often see the back right foot get light. Louis just did it better than almost everyone.
@@mrw1208 I (and many others) do a similar thing when bowling. Most bowlers face the pins squarely, approach the lane, and the end of their slide and release of the ball happens at the same time. However, I approach the lane almost perpendicular to the pins and I still have the ball lifted high behind me when my slide stops. High backswing+ball dropping while hips turning hard to get squared up with the pins gives a much more fast and powerful throw with high revolutions on the ball. It works well for me and I'm sure the rotation of hips technique can be applied in many sports for increased speed and power.
Correct. And this is why the guard in eg karate still looks like this and why it protects the fist both with hand conditioning (makiwara) and favouring straight punches. It assumes no gloves. This is not well understood.
And i Always though its dump. But no here i am learning how got it actully is because without gloves its the better way to go.
Thank you for covering this. House of Devlin and Pugilisticus Britannicus have good videos on UA-cam about these old techniques. Truly a lost art that doesn't get the spotlight it deserves. Also, American Prize Ring on UA-cam actually does fights under the London Prize Ring ruleset.
Also EnglishMartialArts is well versed in the topic.
I think this really expresses the difference fighting sports in a way.. Because rules create a foundation for the fighting style.. Like these guys, with no round limits, and not wanting to risk breaking their hands, they leave their face very exposed to facilitate essentially just beating each other's body to a pulp until someone gives up or cannot continue. These guys are very tough but it's just a completely different sport, they wouldn't last long in a modern boxing ring and a modern boxer wouldn't survive against these guys either. I wonder if they used karate-style ways of conditioning their hands
Yes, rules make the game and every rule change will drastically change the game.
The idea they didn't hit each other in the face is a myth, but they absolutely did do hand conditioning. Toughening the skin by soaking the hands in brine was common, and the simple act of doing all their bag work without gloves or wraps would have had a massive conditioning effect on the bones and muscles of the hands.
IIRC I've heard that they hit each other in the face plenty, but would do so either more conservatively than most boxers today or would actually use open palm strikes.
@@Tan12 I don't know of any evidence they ever used palm strikes, but hitting more conservatively sounds very likely.
@@Matt_Alaric very tough
Thanks!
This is a very interesting topic. I've always wondered why the old time boxers used that stance. Those guys were tough as nails. They would go until someone got knocked out, physically couldn't take any more damage or they became to exhausted to go on. Thanks for posting! 👍✌
'hard' as nails - have you ever heard of a 'tough' nail? lol
@@GaZonk100 No, "tough as nails" is also very much a saying. Look it up
@@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149 I don't need to look it up - it's a bad simile; old boots are 'tough'; cheap steaks are 'tough'; nails are 'hard'. . .you would look stupid asking for 'tough' nails in a hardware store, because a steel nail is not something one could apply the description 'tough' to, so whoever is using the expression is just parroting stuff they've heard used erroneously elsewhere
@@GaZonk100 I see what you're getting at, though I'd say you could certainly call a nail tough. Especially the older, larger, more robust nails. They could certainly withstan quite a beating (nails are quite literally designed to after all) and could handle rather rough conditions. That sounds like toughness to me.
And in any case It's an expression. It's meaning goes beyond mere practical reality.
@@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149 marginal. . .I'll grant you a pass this time, but please in future try to choose turns of phrase which when employed as intensifiers, hew as closely as possible to lived experience, lol
Tony Jeffries, I learned classical Shaolin Kung-Fu. We also teach a similar type of guard for fighting. We have many guards taught from fist to palms but the old boxing guard is similar to our most basic fighting guard. The fighting rules of engagement taught to me were that headshots were not as common for friendly exchanges in Chinese martial arts. Very interesting to see old-school boxers and how they held their hands. We can also use the front arm to help gauge distance from the opponent.
That's kind of like my stance in Sanda practice. more of a bladed/side stance. I'm pretty tall so I keep my lead arm and my lead leg extended for jabs and sidekicks to keep distance. My Shifu is helping me with my form.
It’s the same with us in Choy Li Fut.
Not really into historical boxing myself, but Bartitsu was originally developed in England in 1898-1902 and footwork was king back then too, and not only for the Savate kicks and cane work it included, but as well for the basics of boxing.
So I am pretty sure that foot work as king back in the golden days for boxing too. But considering how many people forget about foot work even today ... I am sure that problem was at least just as common back then.
Bartitsu was fucking cool
Tony, well said! You have no idea how delighted I am to hear somebody say (more or less) what I have always thought. I raised this very same point before (on another site) and nobody got it, the armchair warriors were out in numbers but not in any kind of force I would be worrying about?. The difference between fighting with gloves and bare-knuckle is massive. One well-timed jab (without gloves) can knock somebody on their arse, if you consider the angle of the 'old fighters' they were not set up for a jab so much as a jabbing 'undercut', you would get that fist straight into your teeth, lips and philtrum (lower nose), an awful blow, just one might settle the battle because you might have been knocked down, spitting teeth, blood pouring back your nostrils and eyes just teared up so you can't see properly.
To the people who never fought full-contact and say 'that's old school' I say there was a very good reason and you should be glad you personally never got 'schooled'
I can honestly say I 'paid my dues' in sweat and blood and broken bones but 'eff me backwards, I could never come close to what some of those fighters were, my god!
That is a good point about gloves and head guards too. Just like the USA footballers, the protection of helmets just meant they get hit hard for longer. Their is no boxer I know that wears his gloves in the street, as much as I love boxing as a sport, I have never considered it wasn't a lethal martial art that had been led astray?
Strangers that are far from box: "Punching someone without gloves can cause damage to their head!"
Pro boxers: "Punching someone without gloves can hurt my hands"
Pretty great how those old dudes made boxing look like a gentleman's sport, when it was likely far from it.
From what I understand, the older style was more about protecting yourself from body shots rather then the head. When it came to bare knuckle vs the head, the bones in the hand will break against the skull most of the time. I’ve been told by a bud that gloves add weight to the punch. Adding more force while also protecting the hands an lessening the chances of cutting, which is why Modern Boxing focuses on guarding the head rather then the body cause of the gloves saving the hands.
The force of the punch doesn't come from the weight of the hands. Rocky Marciano has one of the smallest hands in his division and yet he KOs his opponents left and right. It's all about the hips and how fast your can tense your muscles at the moment of impact.
I know that it all the real power comes from the foot work. I was just referring to what a buddy brought up that gloves add weight to the punch. It might not be much, depending on the size of the gloves it would make all the difference.
Gloves can still cut, while Liston broke a man’s jaw with them.
Real fighters don't need to keep their guard up and chin down we can just move our head out of the way. It seems rare for anyone to fight like that these days? Everyone just keeps their hands up and hides their head behind? Pretty boring to watch in my opinion.
I can understand not tucking in the chin, or protecting your temple for MMA or street fights because it constricting if not second nature. Thing it common for modern boxers just to make them a smaller target ideally. Worked for Mayweather, but bare knuckled like the above, they still cover their chin. Each there own really.
@@br.m Given the use of first person, when did you fight?
Historical Fact: Boxing Gloves originally were called Mufflers and only used in sparring.
My answer to the question before having watched your explanation: In the old way the arms point directly towards the target and do not have to be re-adjusted to hit right away. Additionally a fist seen from the front is way less visible than fists raised in a modern guard position, so it is harder for the oponent to tell if a punch is coming.
Now into the video: punching the skull with bare hands? Bad idea. As you said: high risk of hurting your hand. Punch jaw angle. Much safer for the hands as it is a softer target. In fact a k.o. happens way less often in bare knuckle boxing.
Thanks for sharing Ralf
5:29 holy crap what fight was this it looked action packed but also violent as hell
Congratulations on the million subs Tony. I wish you all the best and I got nothing but love and respect for you brother
Thank you mate, means a lot 🙏🏻 Can't do it with out your support 🥊
Old-school boxing concepts still show up from time to time. George Foreman's "long guard" style and Rorberto Duran's "punching wrestler" styles would have been well at home in the older days of boxing, methinks (just modified to account for the lack of wraps and gloves.
Something not mentioned is that old timey boxers didn’t really duck and weave. You could block punches but it was considered unsporting to dance around. When slipping became a thing, the guard moved back towards the body
As someone who boxes a bit myself I can get how not using gloves may actually be less damaging. The gloves give you the freedom to throw every punch full force without injury to your hand.
But punching without it you're way more cautious as a full force jap or swing hurts or can even break something; especially against a hard skull. It's also more concentrated while a gloves has a much larger surface area causing the punch to hit more of you than a fist.
That extra force a boxer can add into a punch is often more than any protection the glove padding will give you who gets hit with it; esp when every punch isn't held back. You feel the wallop on every hit when you spar.
I got knocked in the head twice recently by a decent fighter in a spar, and I was wearing head gear and still had vertigo for like 2 days. I've been punched raw in the head before and it didn't have as much impact.
It's like when I was playing rugby we saw way less significant injuries than the (american)football team, the pads made people too comfortable launching themselves in football
I've never been in a situation for it, but I always wondered if a punch to the head could be defeated by just presenting the arch of my forehead to the incoming fist. I guess it's the followup that would worry me if I ever did that.
The less damage to the bone and soft tissue, the more of that force is transferred through as kinetic energy, shaking the brain and head on the spine, and leading to brain injury. And as you rightly say, punching with gloves incurs less damage to the hand, allowing boxers to hit harder, which transfers even more force directly into the brain.
Favorite UA-cam coach! Respect to my man 🙏🙌 . Keep up the grind💪💪🥊🏆
Thanks coach Tony! it was a great history I learned from boxing👍, a man can fight that long for 7hrs, without refusing to give up, now I believed that man's will, will make a difference in his life.
Absolutely loved this video! Especially enjoyed the historical facts at the very end! Keep up the good work, much love from Oregon USA ✌️
Brilliant video, man. I have this old book, I can't remember the title, but it has all these ringside reports from the golden age of boxing, and yeah, while there were many horrific strikes to the head and face, there were also many, many descriptions of how people would break their fingers or hands, so indeed there must have been a kind of "sweet spot" people would aim for, where they're striking hard enough to end a match, without destroying their bones in the process. Brilliant content as always.
0:34
"CRAZY CRAZY FUCKED!"
His accent makes the video 5x better lmao
The one early fighter famous for footwork and more technical additions was Gentleman Jim Corbett.
You know... I love martial arts history. Boxing to me is a martial art... people don't really talk much about boxing history. Thank for the lesson!
It IS a martial art, wrestling is a martial art... all systems of melee combat are a martial art.
Wow, what a great video! I've always wonder why the rigid stance with the inverted fists. This was very interesting and informative Tony. I love to watch black and white 15 rounds old fights. My 3 favorite all time pugilists are Kid Gavilan, Wilfredo Benitez and most recently Andy Lee.
Tony i love your videos so much thank you for all the tips and im learning a lot
Just as a note from someone who does historical martial arts---most old sources don't include footwork because it was assumed you were learning as someone with a background in the sport. Footwork was usually an assumed skill in these types of texts.
From what I've heard from FightTips (I believe, it's been a while), that old boxing stance in Ireland was also implemented to focus on palmstrikes and scratching. I might be remembering this wrong though.
You are right. They had to fight in this way because they did not use any gloves
Palmstrikes are bloody. Cf hellenik fighting style
As someone who learned boxing and kung fu if I wasn't wearing gloves and I could Palm strike I would switch my hand stances because it's almost identical to Kung Fu as I know it
Saw the fight tips video. He was wrong and later admitted it as i recall. They preferred to strike with fists. The palming thing was a dirty trick. It was legal but not primary. Gloved boxers also do it as trick, thoughts illegal
I love the history of boxing that you’re teaching. Very informative!
Just one thing Tony, the 111 rounds fight was in 1893, not 1983 😅
Yeah I was thinking, I know they when past 12 rounds in the Rocky films but 111, nah 😄
Yes mate you are correct it is 1883, mispronounced the first one, but later at the video I mentioned it was 1883.
Did you enjoy the rest of the video?
@@Tony_Jeffries yes of course i did, i follow you since the beginning of your channel. Thanks for your videos
Wiki: “On April 6, 1893, Bowen and Jack Burke fought the longest fight in history…
The fight lasted 110 rounds over seven hours and 19 minutes (each round lasting three minutes”
This is one of my favorite channels!!! I always wondered about this stance! I knew it had something to do with gloves but I had NO IDEA ABOUT BOXERS BEING ABLE TO GRAPPLE!!!
So so cool!
In the early days, there were often exhibitions at local fairs where the fighter would do sword, stick, and fighting/grappling challenges, sometimes one after the other. Jack Broughton (mentioned in the video) was famous for beating the Prince of Wales in a small sword fight. He was also notorious for focusing on punches to the floating rib, and his love of kicking ("purring") his opponents once he grappled them down. He was considered the first to combine the grappling kicking he learnt from his mentor James Figg, with new, more effective punching techniques. These guys would have been frightening to fight, especially as medical care was basically stitches, brandy, and knives. You broke your body back then, you stayed broke. I don't think any modern fighter would agree to fight in similar conditions. Heck even MMA has an understanding that death/maiming is a terrible thing, whereas for the early bareknuckle guys, maiming/breaking your opponent was just what you did.
My thought is that Queensbury destroyed the European martial arts with his rules for boxing. It was once a full fledged martial art like a hands focused karate (before karate was broken in half to remove most of it's grappling.)
There are a couple of mma fighters who use classic boxing stances. It allows for high volume of punches using less gas than modern boxing. It also had take down defense.
I like the traditional boxing style. Notbing like getting schooled by classic gentlemen fighting.
I don’t know much about boxing, but this was very interesting and informative. Thank you.
This video and Jesse Enkemps video are very informative on the old boxing style. I practice karate and you immediately notice this stance get used a lot. It is actually more versatile than a modern boxing stance or mai tai stance because of the balance distribution. this allows for all around performance in punching, kicking and movement. Where as boxing is best for punching and movement and Mai tai is best for defense, and striking, especially close quarters. Mai tai guys use kicks elbows and knees that can basically one shot you and have a very affective defense through hand placement and low center of gravity but when it comes to moving in and out they are limited because there feet placement is very stocky. Mai tai is probably the best martial art for fighting in the ring because you can't run away from your opponent. With karate and boxing you can move around a lot more and in an open field have an advantage in a fight as long as you keep good distance management. Boxing also can be better because even though kicks are always stronger than punches they can be countered and become a detriment when you miss. Kungfu is best for weapons applications and is such a large study of martial arts that it some ways diverges from practical fighting by over emphasizing certain fighting philosophies that are affective and interesting but aren't affective unless you have very good fighting strategy beyond the necessary strategy needed for other martial arts.
Well after a quick google it is 1893 where the longest match of 110 rounds took place… I mean between reading the line and editing the text in you would think that obvious error would be caught
He probably has an editor who just put in whatever he says
That oldskool boxing stance looks like it would be really effective in a street fight
They must have had an UNGODLY amount of stamina to go for 100+ rounds that's just insane to even think about!
A round ended when somebody was knocked down, it wasnt the same as today
@@nicholasbrown4109 That would still take an insane amount of stamina do you know how much stamina even 1 round would need?
Just just showed up as a random video to watch, and I'm glad I watched it.
Not a boxer myself but I do love the sport so it was cool to watch this history lesson..
Years ago I read several books on boxing history and the explanation I remember for this particular hand position was because it was considered cowardly or unmanly to move your head to avoid punches. I don't remember if the rules reflected this, but they would probably be spoken to by the referee if they did this. This "sword and shield" type fighting is seen in karate which was highly influenced by this style of boxing when karate was evolving into what it is today.
Now that you mention it, it's entirely possible to check straights and roundhouse punches USING your head. Possible but super rare to find somebody even entertaining the idea today. maaaybe that was a big thing back then?
Very good video.
Old Pugilists of the 18th and 19th Century did condition their hands and knuckles similar to some karate styles. Also their striking technique was bit different to modern Boxing and they tried to land more bodyshots. Also Hammerfists and Backfists were allowed among a lot of other stuff. When you check out the Broughton Rules introduced 1743 by Jack Broughton, the student of famous James Figg, then you see that more techniques were allowed than prohibited.
Athough the fists were their main weapons, the ruleset did let them do elbow strikes and headbutts. And more importantly, they did wrestling techniques like the cross-buttock, backheel and other things. Punching in the clinch, rabbit-punches and other things considered a foul or "dirty boxing" today, were allowed back then. Famous Daniel Mendoza was beaten under these rules, because his opponent grabbed Mendoza´s long hair (many Prizefighters preferred shaving their heads because of that) and punched him into submission. So many other techniques were allowed, that the old Pugilists had to adress other than today´s boxers.
Many fighters had to take care of their hands, because fighting was not their main income. Some were like "professionals", with a rich person financing their fights, but many had to work besides their fighting. Imagine you have broken hands and then your main income as a carpenter, blacksmith, dock worker etc. is at risk.
One important points about the many rounds they count back then: A round ended, when a fighter was down on his knees, so some did use a throw to end a round and get a short break (plus create some damage) or they stumbled, got knocked down a bit and went down on one knee or such. So do not imagine these 100 rounds being like 100 2 or 3 minute rounds. But fights could take long and the fighters maiming each other slowly with bare knuckles.
So the stance has various reasons: It was coming from the art of fencing, so fighting with Backsword and Smallsword, which the early Pugilists took the theory for fencing with the fists from. Therefore they used a lot of parrys or blocks, like in Karate, using the forearm to parry. Also when they were striking, they often did a lunge, so like a long fencing falling step to get power behind. Again this guard had also the reason to better protect against bodyshots, but also to prevent grappling attempts better. However these old bw-photos show often later 19th Century fighters. In the older days of Broughton and Mendoza, so 1700 - 1840s, they often used closer guards depending on style and preference. Daniel Mendoza was known for his more square and crouched stance. Also because he was a lighter fighter in a a time, when they had no weight classes. So this all plays a role.
Ive heard they did punch in the face alot more then your saying. Your right about the grappling though.
Joe Louis had the perfect mix of old and new in his style
Thank you for teaching me something today. I always wondered why the old-time boxers boxed like that. Now I know. Mystery solved
Happy to help mate. If u don’t mind, could u please share this vid on ya social media please. Will really help me out :) All good if not 👊🏻
You can check all my videos here: ua-cam.com/users/TonyJeffries1videos
@@Tony_Jeffries Yes, Tony, I will check your video
1893. Andy Bowen and Jack Burke. Thanks for the great Video!
I’ve always been confused by the wing chun stance but it looks remarkably similar to the old boxing stance. I wonder how a lot of traditional martial arts styles would look like today if they kept evolving with gloves
Aye, that’s very true. Another element to the Wing Chun stance is that they trained the same system with the butterfly swords historically (less so these days, obviously), which also informed their use of the ‘chain punch’ when unarmed. Imagining a pair of those short single-edged swords in the stances they use really does help make sense of it, especially if fighting in confined spaces like tight alleys and hallways.
Sometimes all you need is a little extra context!
The old English boxing guard doesn’t really exist anymore because, as you said, of the advent of heavy hands punching with gloves.
However, a variant exist does exist in Muay Thai in the form of the long guard. This is great at keeping your opponent away from you, particularly if they’re heavy clinchers, which is legal in Muay Thai
In beginning stance for straight toward opponent as it was easy to connect with leading hand if opponent tryed to close cap and punch hook.They have to give it out and turn othher side more towards opponent because of poor referees.Even kicks and knees to groins wasnt allowed referee was often sheriff,bartender or somebody who had bet in fight so they didnt give shit if their guy gave some knee to groins.
You still see it every now and then with savateurs who are playing in mixed environment and want some protection against the shoot. The shoot is still dangerous, but against this stance, you've got to worry about that heavy right coming in on you or timing you for a guillotine.
Amazing vídeo, Tony! Energetic, fast, full of interesting facts PLUS crazy facts! You're a good comunicator! Thanks for the video!
This was really cool! I can really see its influence in Bartitsu!
What are your thoughts Oleksandr Usyk? He's become something of a favorite of mine since I learned about him a few months ago.
The old school Okinawa karate styles often adopted this kind of stance too. Same deal as 18th century boxing - no hand protection, kicks, holding and trapping, clinching and grappling, throws and all kinds of dirty shit and let's see who's the last guy standing. People kind of didn't think about tommorow that much in the olden days, it seems. 😄
Taking up Muay Thai but found your channel very helpful in improving my form. Thank you. I'm subscribing.
Isaac Newton, as well as being a serious alchemist, hardcore theologian and part time physicist was also a fine pugilist. You inspire my curiosity about the rules he competed under :)
The stance change is, as you point out, significantly due to fighting with pillows on the hands.
The first time I, as a seasoned Karateka and bare-knuckle brawler got conned into a match wearing those things, it did not go well. Never again. Never!
And seeing that boxers have trouble with their hands, the hand-hardening training I did as a youngster should be standard.
I could and did punch incoming elbows, feet, knees and fists very effectively. Hands that have been correctly conditioned can take it. Delivering hard head shots really is not a problem.
And now, at 60, my hands still get used as mallets when I do woodwork yet are sensitive enough for the work I do as a master of the tantric arts.
"my hands still get used as mallets when I do woodwork yet are sensitive enough for the work I do as a master of the tantric arts."
That definitely goes to my "Pick-up Lines For Halloween" folder
I'm in awe
That's the goal for me to be honest. Tough hands with no problems. How did you condition them?
@@jst3455 hitting a floor-mounted flexible plank is good.. sharp but light impacts when you miss the rhythm of the timing.
Hitting stuff generally .. working up to harder. wood, steel, concrete ..
When walking a beach, pick up two stones and knock them to break everything in one hand to sand, then get another rock and do it again with the other hand.
Also at the beach .. punch the sand, especially the firm sand near the water.
And, of course, never use gloves or wrist support on a punch bag.
I just saw Manny and clicked man. I didn't even get to read the title.
It's official: Boxing is evolved MMA
What I find interesting about this stance is that it is very close to a karateka's stance, especially the likes of Shotokan Karate. The main difference is that karate would use this to block and counter the opponent. Your head is a lot less likely to be hit because your guard is more setup to intercept and counter. It creates time for the fighter to lure them in. It's a very effective way to fight.
It's always felt intuitive. Use one hand to control, use the other to strike. Both still defend.
@@lemagicbaguette1917 the beautiful thing about this position is how much range it can create. You have time to intercept an attacker and counter them and reduce your chances of being hit.
1300 years ago, sumo was MMA. Punching kicking grappling and everyting else. but a fighter got killed, great big tall dude nicknamed "the Sharp Footed". He ran into a guy sharper-footed than he was. the emperor ruled that from then on, only throwing was allowed. Like Broughton eliminating some of the nastier stuff from boxing.
Very interesting! People often say that modern athletics is miles ahead of what it used to be, but that seems to be a hasty assumption.
About your point about protecting the hands while bare knuckle. The movie Gladiator (1992) shows this when the main character who has always used gloves gets challenged to a bare knuckle fight against an old school boxer (Brian Dennehy) and the first punch the main character throws, Brian's character lowers his head and the main character breaks his hand on his forehead.
111 rounds man what kind of cardio they used to do?
Working on the docks... 😂
@@s.beccari4678 wish to know actually, they must have hated each other.
Thanks Tony, we like to think that we today are better and brighter than folks in the past. Your Video is a great demonstration that if you know the realities of the time, people often had good reasons to do things that might seem silly today. 111 Rounds.. Just amazing.
Gloves changed the style and tactics. Simple as that
Tf up 💀 ain’t shit simple
Dmitry Bivol still fight like this it's just more modern style
Agree 💯
The arc of boxing is a phenomenal book that details all of this
In those days - 'Queens' were mostly in the closet - and so with limited elbow room the average fighter stood like the men in these pictures. I thank you.
Tumbleweed...
Great stuff Tony! Keep it coming!
"When you've been fighting that hard, for that long, would it really be fair to call anyone a loser?"
That was beautiful man!
One of the best videos I've watched in a long time. Thanks
My father was on the Harvard Boxing team. Taught me boxing as a kid. I enjoyed putting the gloves on and sparring. But I never really had the heart to be a fighter. Some of the descriptions Tony makes are why I lost that will to go in and do what ever it takes, regardless of your self or your opponent. But I respect true fighters.
Thanks for the content, Tony!
Great analysis- thanks Tony. When it came to footwork, however, Dan Mendoza used it to his advantage, beating men twice his size. His Achilles' heel was his long hair. John Jackson grabbed that, apparently, with the inevitable conclusion..
I cannot say this emphatically enough: PHENOMENAL video!!!
Thank you Tony! Big fan, love your videos, and appreciate the information! SUPER interesting! Hope you have a great day man!