BION, facial hairs tend to rip & can pull chunks of your face off if the opponent twists his striking hand at the instant of contact. Now, a beard down to your yin-yang might just prove a bit more defensive. Don't know.
Cid Sapient tackling wasnt as bad pre 70s.(and tackles got harder and faster overtime) Or so ive come to understand. Also there was less other protective gear like shoulderpads wich meant if you tackled someone with full force you woud also hurt yourself.
"Balderdash! Why, I once watched Gentleman Jim Corbett fight an Eskimo fellow bare-knuckled for a hundred and thirteen rounds! Of course, back then, if a fight lasted less than fifty rounds, we demanded our nickel back!" - Mr. Burns
Soo... what you mean to tell me then is that hardcore, brutal, slow motion prize fight Sherlock Holmes had in the 2009 movie was.... ... Gentleman's boxing?
@randy palla True, but there are actually quite a few similarities between wing chun and the kind of boxing described here. Including stance. Not the same, but sometimes more in common than with modern sport boxing.
So my great grandfather was a boxer in the 30s he said they wore leather work gloves to protect the skin. Also he said faces are full of bones that would tear up your hands
My friend punched a guy in the face only with his index finger he had full force on it so it pushed his knuckle about 2 inches. He had to wear a cast and had 2 nails sticking out for months.
@Andy Garcia It's hard, especially if you're untrained and have an adrenaline rush, to hit people with just but also both of the first two knuckles (how you should punch someone when not wearing gloves). Only a slight misalignment will result in just hitting with the first finger, resulting in the scenario described above.
punch with true knuckles that includes the index and middle knuckles as the meta carpals load bearing in compression. a thing I and over do couple of weeks is soak the top of your hands in vinegar or alcohol any thing that dehydrates the skin on your knuckles this prevent skin splitting. if you are a masochist you can run your hand through a rough medium such as sand to cause the skin callus I don,t do this as my hands are naturally callused from my work as a machinist and welder. gloves are cheating.
These gloves where a looot harder than modern gloves.a buddy of mine has his great grandfathers gloves..we where drinking one night and I took a small punch just for fun.. It hurts as fk really 😂 think the padding was made of horse hair but I'm not sure about that.
Impressive. I'm glad you mentioned the difference in rules. The "old timey" stance is VERY effective. I think they just posed with their chin up for the staged photos. Leaning back maximizes the distance between your face and the opponents fist. Keeping one hand in front of the other gives you two layers of defense.
It works for swords designed to stab as well. If you look at old rapier training manuals, such as Capo Ferro, the stance emphasizes one lean back with most of one's weight on the back foot with the sword hand partially extended. This is opposed to the modern day where one is straight up at all times with weight distributed equally between feet and sword hand always cocked back unless striking. This is because the old style was intended to protect one's self, and modern is a sport where earning points is the over not being hit.
2 layers of defense? For what? Your stomach? The Old Timey stance is VERY ineffective. That's why they don't use it anymore. I would Like no LOVE to see someone go into the ring with a modern day boxer leaving his head undefended like that.
@@struggleboy2927 it protects the sweet spot not the head as the head is where you break your hands they went for the body which hurts more and ends a fight sooner using weaker punches to the head it's very effective in a street fight its just not effective in the boxing ring anymore (this is coming from a modern who had effectively used the old English stance in the streets)
@@Muscaplaysbare knuckle Boxing was more lineal than circular motion. More like Okinawan Karate, also that pose was heavinly influenced by Fencing. Many English boxers were also Fencers.
My grandfather was a bare knuckle boxer as well as a Golden Glove boxer. And a bar room brawler probably most of the time. He and my grandmother owned and ran a bar in the small rural town I grew up in. I can remember being a kid and sweeping out the bar on Sundays for a few bucks, a Bun candy bar and 12 oz Coke (the small bottles that needed a bottle opener) and there was a makeshift boxing ring set up where the pool tables were usually located. I can recall the horror when I cleaned up after a Saturday night. Blood on the floor, teeth, vomit and booze. Some guys would get knocked out and piss themselves. After that, I told Grandpa I didn't want to clean the bar up anymore. That is some intense shit for a 10 year old to see. When my mother found out he was letting me work in the bar on Sundays when she thought I was at Sunday school...
well, that's a logical reason to do it and something i've done myself, when fighting the kind of person who will kick you in the balls with no remorse. no one can fight like a man anymore, apparently. always 2-3 on 1, fighting dirty as hell. i was going to add, a lot of the people taking their shirts off is to try and seem big and badass, show youre muscles flexed, etc. basically fuckboys with this "MAN ON MAN 1 ON 1 RAW LETS GO" teenager mentality. but hell, that's far more respectable than jumping someone, even if you are a pacing, screaming, shirtless jackass before you get knocked out.
@@thinkingworldwide3578 we're referring to modern times. the shirt being pulled over your head is really only a threat in prison. it just isnt practical in a 1v1 street fight. edit: and ofc like i mentioned in my first comment, when people are jumping people ita very common etc. hence why its so common in prison.
No - because it's a style designed around the rules and contemporary style of an organized sporting competition. It's assuming that you're facing a predictable opponent, which is why you're guarding your body and not your head; because that's where they were throwing back then. There's NOTHING predictable about a street fight. Well, aside from probably a 97% that the chump your facing in the street doesn't have an ounce of legitimate skill. But, otherwise, the average fool willing to get in a fight on the street doesn't have the slightest concern about breaking their hands on your skull, so they're going to be swinging for it. And, even if they do break their hand, that doesn't mean that your ass won't get KTFO. There's a reason why MMA classes haven't replaced self defense classes - MMA is predictable(for instance, no one tailors their stance to protect their balls from being kicked; since it isn't legal), street fights and attacks aren't.
No,because both styles are made around rules and trained people,in the street cunts follow no rules and they don’t have a stile that you can prepare against
No. No boxing technique is really all that useful in a streetfight. I box a little but just because I like to box not because I think it might help me in a street fight. You can use boxing technique in a street fight, but you can also use a knife. That's my point I guess.
Daniel Mendoza was also slightly insane. While going to watch a fight, he managed to get into 3 street fights. 1st one: another cart cut him off. 2nd: he thought a shopkeeper tried to rip him off. 3rd: a guy looked at him and he felt challenged.
@@bitplayer7092 You can't tell most Jews are Jews by looking at them on the street. He was just another jerk who felt entitled to have everything his way.
@@mary9983 I think you got "whooshed" Michael mentioned "Triple H" because, like "The Undertaker" (a play on the original commenter's "undertaker" in the first comment), Triple H was a wrestling star. I'm quite sure Michael got the original joke. I think you missed Michael's subsequent return joke.
I saw a boxing channel a few years ago that went into this as well. The boxer stated that in addition to the stance and head rules being different, the style utilized palm strikes more than closed fists (to limit hand bone breaks on the head strikes).
Great job on the video! for anyone else interested in the bare-knuckle era of boxing, I would advise researching Tom Molineux, Tom Cribb & Bill Richmond. The baddest men on the planet back in 1802 :)
@@hydorah Hay Hydorah, I have a question. I'm from the north of England, and I'm thinking of going on holiday next year to Ireland, maybe someplace south, rural, camping. Will the fact that I can play a few Irish songs on the flute increase or decrease my chances of getting a beating?
Some of the really old boxing forms came from sword and shield training. There's been a lot lost over the centuries because Europeans didn't idealize their fighting techniques as much as some Asian cultures did, and I really suspect that unlike the sword fighting shown in films, combat between armored men had a lot of grappling involved.
The ready stance of traditional karate, called kimai , today looks very much the same. This is still the most efficient way to hold the bare hands to respond to an opponent from all angles. MMA has many variations because it must also account for wrestling and jujutsu. In shotokan karate we were taught to aim the triangle formed by the fists at the center of the opponent’s sternum.
I prefer the "horse" stance. You can block all of your opponents attacks from this position. But then again, I only made it to brown belt. Maybe this is just a amateur talking out of his ass, but it sounds logical to me. Merry Christmas everyone! 😀
110 rounds! Imagine beating and getting beat for 7 hours! After about 15 minutes most people would just be swing limp arms windmill style hoping they just keep the other person at a distance.
Alex Picard the fight lasted that long because back then grappling was allowed and that's 110 times someone are another got threw to the ground at which time a round would end
'Guy's' who pull hair when 'fighting' tend to be much more girly than they are manly ! I never respected ( or liked) someone if it turned out that they fought like that.
Lindybeige had a video yesterday - albeit regarding another form of combat - and also stated that “the less the protection, the safer the fight.” for the same reasons - you don’t want to obliterate your opponent and destroy your own body in the process just to win. Case in point - the short professional life expectancy of American football players.
Having studied eastern martial arts for some 25 years the old stance has always made a lot of sense to me as it's a much more pactical option for a no holds barred match involving grappling and potentially facing multiple opponents. Interesting break down to see it parallelled with the rules of the time.
A concise answer in the first two and a half minutes for the mildly curious, then all the juicy details afterwards for anyone who wants to stay til the end Excellently structured
As conceived in 1632 by Portuguese printing press operator Andre Filipe, boxing was a gentlemen’s game in which two men would square off and regale each other with stories monotonous for days on end until one of them fell to the ground from boredom or exhaustion. Over the next few years, the new sport developed a respectable following of a few hundred local socialites. It was Filipe’s son, Andre Filipe Filipe, who developed what he called “the punching strategy” in 1637 after seeing a schoolboy strike another in anger, causing him to fall down. When Andre Filipe Filipe challenged the then-champion, British ex-patriate “Sleepless” Bill Bishop to a match, Bishop was the odds-on favourite. You can imagine his surprise when while he was describing what he had had for breakfast that morning, Andre walked up and thumped him in the neck, sending him down “for the count” in the parlance of our time. While it was universally agreed that the boy had violated the spirit of the game, officials were unable to find any actual rule that punching violated, and were forced to let the victory stand. This upset caused an uproar in the boxing community large enough to spill over into local newspapers, and stirred the interest of many outsiders to come see what the fuss was about. The newcomers were enthralled to engage in these borderline barbaric displays of human strength and skill, and the rest is history - after a few spoilsport schoolmoms single-minded about safety added the padded gloves, of course. Today’s boxing enthusiasts fantasise about the newcomer that would rock the ring the way Filipe did. Classification of the modern ruleset has essentially locked the punching strategy into place; but it’s easy to get caught up in the fantasy. Young scholars with big dreams often enter the ring with their crazy new trick, usually a variant of hypnosis. And though they’ve achieved the occasional victory, none of the gimmicks have been robust enough to make it to the big-time. The real wonder, though, is that Andre Filipe’s original vision of boxing is still around. Gentlemen’s boxing clubs can be found in cities all over the world; you can visit one most any day of the week and see two erudite gentlemen exchanging pleasantries in the ring. Most people only come to watch a few hours of a match, and then leave. But every once in a while you’ll find amongst your elders a stout fellow, a die-hard fan, who perhaps witnessed that historic battle between Filipe and Bishop, who for love of the sport must stay to witness the last glorious seconds of wakefulness slip away, only to return to fight again another day.
I'd be surprised if only one person came up with the concept of boxing. Fighting is pretty much the world's oldest sport. In fact, I am pretty sure it would have been quite rampant in ancient times.
Yeah, the fists close up your face is generally a poor defense unless you and your opponent wears boxing gloves. Fists are small and will slip through, and even if you do manage to block you may just end up "punching yourself". Old-style barefist pugilists had this arms front form for a reason.
A lot of the earlier bareknuckle boxers had something closer to that though. Look up the stances of Daniel Mendoza or Tom Cribb. The low hand stance is more Jem Mace, and early gloved (where gloves were smaller), and came about as grappling lessened.
It is about time someone explained this!! OMGosh, I have had people try to tell me that the hand position was because they didn't know what they were doing back then. Thank you so much for this video.
It seems the old timey places the elbow in a position to protect from strikes to the liver. Part of the liver is exposed and vulnerable, just below the ribs on the right side. It can put a fighter down extremely well and very quickly. If you get very board, there are many examples out there on UA-cam in all the fighting styles.
Marcus W to look smaller and hide the fat rolls. Then because every girl was doing it and women tend to copy what the group do. That's why you see some women like clones. So now everyone is doing it.
Marcus W because some beautiful women have natural thic eyebrows like cara delevine. Brooke shields and barbara palvin and women with boring slim eyebrows want that.
had a HEMA guy explain another benefit. since the fist was already upturned, it could quickly transition into a short uppercut to the chin. and as any fighter can tell you, being pegged in the chin solidly is a good way to get knocked entirely out.
Ryan Weible one of my old boxing mentors told me they squared up like this to avoid broken hands . Hard hitters are likely to break their hand bare knuckled with their hardest hit. proof being the new bare knuckle fighting championships . they constantly break their hands . they squared up protecting the body because most of them would throw majority body shots
@@ryanweible9090 True, and not incompatible with protecting their hands. Anyone who has delivered or received a bare knuckle uppercut to the chin will tell you that it doesn't take a whole lot of force; to injure your hand, you'll have to hit much harder than necessary. I've been on both sides of it, and it's an undeniably effective punch. If you miss the chin, you either miss completely, or you hit something softer than the chin. Aim for the side of the head, on the other hand, and you might hit the cheekbone, which is very solid, or the side of the forehead. You'll also need more force. In fact, knocking someone out by striking the cheekbone is pretty much impossible. Aiming for the middle of the face would be truly stupid in a bare knuckle fight, as you'd risk kitting forehead, cheekbones and, not least, teeth. You may win, but you'll be picking teeth out of your knuckles for the next hour or so. So, I'm fairly certain that, among head strikes, the uppercut will have been the most popular.
I recently watched a Boxing Match from the 1930s on UA-cam, the one guy got knocked down and every time the guy tried to get up the other guy beat him back down and the Ref just kept counting lol. 🤕
As often is the case, I come to these TIFO-videos intrigued by the title but thinking "10 minutes? Just give me the tldr version!" But I /always/ end up staying for the whole video as they are so well made and interesting! Good job!
Well it does not fucking matter... It looks good now. And twenty years later people will wear different shit. You can try to find a boring style, that kinda works any time or you can try to look fancy.
Shizuo Heiwajima time constraints, bare knuckle bouts either end really quick or take forever. Vale tudo is bare knuckle and they only have a single 30minute round and most fights like i said either end really quickly or go the distance. A good example is oleg tarkarov vs marcos ruas, it essentially boiled down to two men brutally beating each other for 30mins, almost entirely stand up striking. Its a beautiful fight
@@IXSICNESS Yeah I don't watch a lot of fighting but I have seen like the first dozen UFC's and I remember the Oleg Taktarov fight with Dan Severn, and man can that guy take a head stomping
Shizuo Heiwajima yea he can, ruas was outboxing him, but they both wanted what was essentially a boxing match and stuck to that for most of the fight. Oleg did go for a few takedowns, but you cant hold that against him, as i believe he is more of a ground fighter, and almost 30minutes of non stop punching has to be pretty exhausting, especially when your opponent has better boxing skills
Honestly, this video probably saved my life as I was trying to work through my being sick from as lack of perspective on staying alive and an over abundance of booze. I listened to this video and needed to understand why Simon was singing what he was at the end. That brought me back into the fold. So thank you for this video. It’s a stupid thing but my daughter will be grateful.
@@tmass1 Not really - hold your fists up close to your face and they can just be slammed into your own face with an open palm jab. Much better to dodge and use the extended guard to parry or intercept the opponents strikes. Also a high guard leaves you open to liver and solar plexus shots, which are easier to land bare knucke and can be totally debilitating.
@@tmass1 What a bullshit point, argue with arguments instead, but yes, I have practiced both boxing and MMA, and to a lesser extent kung-fu and muay thai. I have sparred with small gloves, and with large, and I can tell you right away that when guarding with small gloves, it hurts A LOT more when hit, but they still do protect you better than bare hands. Also, MMA is a whole different sport than boxing, you can keep better distance because of kicks and grapples,, not comparable really. The primary danger of holding a high guard in a bare-knuckle fight is that you are extending the range from which your opponent can hit you. You really don't gain much protection, and is giving up visibility. You CAN ofcourse use your guard to block, but you risk serious injury to your hand and/or face.
Notice in these old photos, the head is always slightly back; thus keeping it safe distance relative to a head leaning forward. Make NO mistake about it. These men were f-ing bad asses. Jack Johnson was one of the toughest men of all time. When he lost to Jess Willard (Granted Johnson was passed his prime) that fight was a marathon in 95 degree heat. READ UP ON IT!
There's an interesting documentary from the early 1970s about Jack Johnson made by Jim Jacobs that has an accompanying album by legendary jazz trumpeter Miles Davis (A Tribute to Jack Johnson). He was a badass.
Jim Jeffries was a bigger badass imho, He held the title for 7 years and retired undefeated, When he came out of retirement three years later to fight Johnson he was 100lbs overweight and lost it all in six months. He'd beat Johnson twice earlier in his career and as a former champ was the only person who could or would give Johnson a legitimate title fight. He doesn't get enough credit.
Jim Jeffries was a total and absolute badass!! He is worth big props and is totally underrated. Be a great movie to feature Jeffries & Johnson. P.S. Don't forget Sam Langsford
@@kirklawson2218 Some were long, I don't think there were any close to that long. People would go down easy if it was advantageous, especially later on, and they'd often close and grapple or throw Overall they tended to be a fair bit shorter than 3min, though you could get some longer. They could also agree to have a break mid round, atleast later on.
this was common around the world for martial practices because in a battle field if you go down, 12 people rush in with spears to stab the easy target and you are too slow to run away to your closest line of defense who would catch anyone too eagerly running forward
Did you have to include the faint whistling in the background for no apparent reason to make me have to pause the vid and question my sanity several times?
Simon and the team: I don't know how you do it, but you somehow manage to make even subjects I'm really not that into, seem interesting. Thanks and keep up the good work!
You don't really watch boxing then. Sure Gayweather and Wladimir Klitchsko were boring for a decade but many modern fights are classics forever. Gatti-Ward trilogy, Pacquiao-Marquez quadrilogy, Broner vs Maidana, Canelo vs GGG, and many more. The best fight of all time...Castillo vs Coralles, modern and all time classic.
@@thinkingworldwide3578 Doubtful. The rules back then we're completely different. Most modernly trained boxers likely couldn't transition well. At least not right off the bat. It'd be like transitioning into a completely different sport really. Hell, I'd wager an MMA fighter would transition easier given the rules.
The vertical fist and straight punch is safer for bare knuckles than the type of punches which can be thrown in gloves. Also, in the old type bouts a round lasted as long as somebody was standing.
Hema guy here, Fairly nice video. Absolutely true that this position allows for parries, grappling and voids. There are some examples and written descriptions as well as drawings of hands drawn close in older European manuscripts. Also there are and were schools teaching this as part of mixed martial arts of sorts. Fencing with out a weapon, foot work and all. Think of how similar a Kung fu stance looks with open hands or Kenpo. Cheers JP
TL;DW : boxers use to box like this because they did not wear gloves, and when you punch someone In their skull the way we punch today, you are more likely to damage and break your hand or fingers. Punching the old way makes your punches hit with the harder part of your fists (the big knuckle at the base of the fingers).
I don't think there's much in common with bareknuckle and MMA. From what I've seen of MMA there is very little similarity with bareknuckle. The punching in MMA is totally different, with a lot of off angle and odd punches, whereas bareknuckle (atleast the skilled fighters) used quite precise punches and had a big focus on getting good leverage. The fights were to the finish so once the sport developed they were very long and attritional like early gloved boxing. There also wasn't the ground fighting, a lot of the grappling was to throw your opponent, and in some cases land on them, to wear them down, though there was also stuff like grappling to hit while holding. I think MMA has too much eastern influence to be much like bareknuckle
Also in boxing you can be completely floored and still make it to a standing 8-count, only to be hit again, while an MMA fight is supposed to end the instant somebody goes limp.
I disagree. This used to be the thought but have you heard a lot of mma fighters that have been doing it for years talk? Jesus Christ! And they’re not even very old yet but that brain must be mush by now. I know repeated smaller trauma isn’t great but head kicks aren’t better and many mma fighters go all out in sparring with bigger gloves anyways and that’s where a lot of brain damaged is caused.
Heard stories about my grandpa, when he was younger he fought like this. And I guess he whopped ass. Dont judge the stance until after the fight. Could be surprised.
His visits to other countries are always great. I don't care about his show at all as I don't know the guests and stuff but Conan in Japan recently aired and that is really fun.
east asian martial arts based for war. attacking face with bare knuckles will lead to broken hand, and also easy to dodge, so wasting stamina in battle field. fast punches to the body is useless because even the lowest of peasant recruit had padded leather armor, meaning that you need lot more power to make a good trade of damage for stamina. this is why east asian martial arts focus on breaking power, or joints (no armor on joints), or repositioning (make them go to where your team-mates are who will surround the opponant caught off sides with sheilds and thrust 100 spears into them (very effective trade to spend such little stamina to permanantly remove an opponant form battle field. clearly europe had battle field expirence, and clearly had armor as well, as well as weapons, lances, swords, spears etc. so they know. naturally they will also use such a stance (except they fight with no shirt or armor, so they can use a stance with less winding force, since it takes less force to cause damage compared to a real war situation.).
When I used to do mixed martial arts ( wasn't a long time) I always held my left arm out like this but in a boxing stance, and I did this because my arm span was longer than most of the people in my club and my spinning back fist was my special.
Justice Warrior exactly what I was thinking. Coming from amateur boxing when I first trained in Shotokan, my Sensei was always picking up on my guard being too close, muscle memory eh?!? It took until 6th Kyu in point sparring and kumite until I guarded correctly without a lot of conscious input!
A well groomed mustache would act like tentacles, enwrapping the opponent's fist and subduing it, giving a mustached man a great advantage. Some so entangled the opponent that the referees took to carrying barber shears for a brief period until "Cthulu face" was banned by Queensbury rules in 1867. -Fake history expert
yes... mustache's of this era were nearly impervious to all damage including being struck in the face with a chair or lounging sofa during a wild unrestrained bar fight or being pummeled during rare (but noteworthy) occasions by a horse that might have been slung around as a club with hooves during such altercations...
One reason for why modern day boxing is so dangerous is the sheer amount of hits to the head the boxer takes in a match. Without mittens, or with lighter mittens (such as in MMA), there's a higher chance of getting knocked out, which in fact is less dangerous than the accumulative damage done by repeated trauma for 10 rounds.
Flying Dude Yes, the cumulative damage is the big difference, but it’s not because of knockouts. Getting knocked unconscious _(into a coma, essentially)_ is _very_ bad. It’s not safer to get knocked out. It’s the referee. As soon as a fighter is stunned or knocked down in mma, the referee is going to end the bout if the fighter cannot intelligently defend themselves. In Boxing, they’re given 8 seconds to stand back up. Boxers can lose consciousness, and get up in that amount of time. Even if they can barely stand, completely unable to defend themselves, the referee won’t stop the fight.
Good point, also with boxing gloves you can punch as hard as you possibly can. Bare knuckle you have to control how much power you put into punches to the face in case you catch the forehead. It's easy to generate enough force to fracture the small bones in the hands with a punch.
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This is just nonsense. Wish these myths would die. Someone watches some fight science video where they hit a bag and think that is the only variable to consider. It has to do with a moral Hazard. Wraps and gloves allow for full force punches to the head. No gloves or thinner gloves lead quickly to less powerful punches. Also has an effect on stance, bare knuckle went dominant hand forward valuing speed and balance over raw power. Head gear also leads to more brain damage which is why the Olympics are likely getting rid of it. The real problem with boxing and kickboxing is the standing eight count. They get right seconds to shake off a concussion and then get another, then another. A KO is just a major concussion. Again, wish people actually understood causes of concussion. Accuracy and precision are more important than power. The right velocity guarantees a KO.
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@kommisar can't say I know why your quoting me. I don't see anything I said about "these people."
MMA is where it's at. Boxing sucks nowadays, they call a slip a knockout or a stun. Hence Mayweather vs McConnor, McConnor got stunned not knocked out and the ref called the fight. After the late 90s boxing sucks!
@c ball It doesn't punch backwards and obviously doesn't use more muscles or generate more power. Using big gloves means you can punch a lot harder. If you were correct, which you are evidently not, all boxers would still use it. They don't. Anyone who has boxed can tell you that it's FAR more effective to throw hooks, straights, and over hands than it is to backfist.
Look at "guard" stands in Tradition Martial Arts. Sees that the human body and henceforth the mechanics works the same way everywhere because it's LITERALLY (in fact) one of the best way to protect one selves ungloved. *flies away*
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Great video! As always you look up your intel before making video, unlike so many others. I am boxer myself so always fascinating to find out more about the history of boxing.
A lot of people don't realise that the introduction of gloves turned your hand into a blunt weapon, causing your opponent's brain to rattle around in his skull; resulting in brain damage.
"Why are you hitting yourself? Stop hitting yourself!" You can still do it to someone wearing gloves if they don't know how to work the block properly.
that is why you should raise your arm and brace it against your forehead when defending a strike to the face. the area you can cover with your lower and and elbow is much bigger than your fist and if you do manage to get the guy to smash his fist into your elbow it's even better.
One of my great great grandfathers was a miner and prizefighter, his name was Thomas 'Tripp' Evans, made some decent money as well couldn't read or write but knew his way round numbers.
So the Queenbury rules actually make boxing worse. They concentrate blows to the head maximizing the danger of coupe counter coup injuries? The old fighting techniques seem more like modern mixed martial arts bouts. I have to conclude that MMA is actual a more humane sport & is less injurious to its practitioners.
I know an mma fighter. Hes a farrier and had his ankle popped out. Most people would be out of action for 6 weeks. He was back shodding horses the next day!
@@mutantmacrophage6653 W/ all due respect, brain damage from coup counter coup injuries is far worse then any of those things. I guess people back then didn't understand such things though. Lou Gehrig's is obviously named for Lou Gehrig, who was a base ball player. That is not usually a contact sport. "Bean balls" were a common fact in those days. Somehow whatever injuries he suffered were sufficient to induce the disease. I have to wonder at how little it takes to get this disease?
@@VictorLepanto Yeah I was just saying Queensbury wasn't all bad historically; like the guy said in the video they did some good too. Queensbury Rules is associated with being a 'legit' fight / boxing match. Too bad they didn't know any better about brain damage.
I can tell you as a boxer myself and as someone who has trained in Wing Chun, Both styles seek to control the centerline of the fight. If you cant get close, and the other fighter controls the centerline (the line where both fighter line up head to head) with a strong stance, that fighter will usually dominate the fight. Get into either of those stances, and let someone attack you with any other style. You'll find that the person controlling the center of the fight, will absolutely have the advantage of counter punching and speed punching right up the middle if they advance to attack.
The fist was out like that because it allowed a proper blow which on the bareknuckle Era was Diagonal punches with the palm up. The elbow pointing down allows for a straight blow. So when u throw your hitting with all the knuckles.
I've heard this rhetoric a hundred times, and I don't buy it. It's important to note that bare knuckle boxing still happens today, primarily in Ireland. You can go and watch them on youtube right now. You will note, that while they tend to jab more and are more concise with their shots, they still go for knockouts and use the high guard on modern boxing. I would like to propose that the high guard was a thing that evolved over time, not because of gloves, but because technique improved as boxers from more walks of life and divergent styles affected the sport. Humans have been swimming for countless thousands of years, yet Englishmen used to exclusively swim the breaststroke until Native Americans demonstrated the front crawl, and the modern six-beat front crawl wasn't developed until the 1920's. We can see the same process happening now in real-time. When I first started jiujitsu in 2005, the preferred finishing positioning for the guillotine choke was from a closed guard; now, the preferred position is one leg under and one leg over, which makes for a tighter guillotine. We may have to accept that our ancestors just weren't very good boxers by modern standards.
Modern bare knuckle fighters fight under post Queensbury rules, the rules change the way people fight. Nobody fights under London Prize Ring rules even bare knuckle today. The first recorded British boxing champion, won via armlock, to give you an idea of how much the rules have changed... If you changed the rules, the preferred stances would start to change.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
(9 PM) "Going to try and sleep early tonight".
(1:30 am) "I wonder how people boxed in the 1800's"
Same here
Lmao modern life right xD
I am literally doing this right now at 1:19 AM
2:09am
@@1973noxqses 12:50am
Most had mustaches big enough to protect their face.
BION, facial hairs tend to rip & can pull chunks of your face off if the opponent twists his striking hand at the instant of contact. Now, a beard down to your yin-yang might just prove a bit more defensive. Don't know.
I don't know why i am laughing so much at this comment lool.
@@slukky people with beards are less trust worthy
And coarse and prickly enough to be a deterrent
“MY FACE IS MY SHIELD!!!” -Commander Hair Gel
lol mouth guards invented in 1902 implemented into boxing in 1912
not used in hockey till the 1990s
Cid Sapient tackling wasnt as bad pre 70s.(and tackles got harder and faster overtime) Or so ive come to understand. Also there was less other protective gear like shoulderpads wich meant if you tackled someone with full force you woud also hurt yourself.
Lmao .... yeah tell that to the guys playing back then .
Hockey players are dimwits though
@@alainerookkitsunev5605 Umm... there isn't tackling in either hockey or boxing.
@@JonSmith-hk1bq there is tackling in hockey.
"Balderdash! Why, I once watched Gentleman Jim Corbett fight an Eskimo fellow bare-knuckled for a hundred and thirteen rounds! Of course, back then, if a fight lasted less than fifty rounds, we demanded our nickel back!" - Mr. Burns
valar
Burns never paid me for the ivory back scratcher he commissioned from. Cheap bastard.
Lol nickelback
Very nice!!!!
Hilarious and nostalgic
I always pose like that in family photos where I'm standing next to my mother-in-law.
hahaha
@Jerry The Ferret Thanks :)
bhgtree
🐐
How often does she knock you out?
Mother in law jokes will never die....!! 💯
Soo... what you mean to tell me then is that hardcore, brutal, slow motion prize fight Sherlock Holmes had in the 2009 movie was....
... Gentleman's boxing?
No one has ever mistaken Holmes (as portrayed by Robert Downey jr) for a gentleman.
Best movie ever..
Looked more like Wing Chun to me
@randy palla True, but there are actually quite a few similarities between wing chun and the kind of boxing described here. Including stance. Not the same, but sometimes more in common than with modern sport boxing.
Yep actually it was
I have a picture of my great-grandfather in that pose along with his old boxing gloves. He competed from 1911-1926. This explains a lot.
So my great grandfather was a boxer in the 30s he said they wore leather work gloves to protect the skin. Also he said faces are full of bones that would tear up your hands
My friend punched a guy in the face only with his index finger he had full force on it so it pushed his knuckle about 2 inches. He had to wear a cast and had 2 nails sticking out for months.
@Andy Garcia It's hard, especially if you're untrained and have an adrenaline rush, to hit people with just but also both of the first two knuckles (how you should punch someone when not wearing gloves). Only a slight misalignment will result in just hitting with the first finger, resulting in the scenario described above.
punch with true knuckles that includes the index and middle knuckles as the meta carpals load bearing in compression. a thing I and over do couple of weeks is soak the top of your hands in vinegar or alcohol any thing that dehydrates the skin on your knuckles this prevent skin splitting. if you are a masochist you can run your hand through a rough medium such as sand to cause the skin callus I don,t do this as my hands are naturally callused from my work as a machinist and welder. gloves are cheating.
@Thomas Golllon it is kinda funny that you called someone a dumbass and then went on to misspell weapons
These gloves where a looot harder than modern gloves.a buddy of mine has his great grandfathers gloves..we where drinking one night and I took a small punch just for fun.. It hurts as fk really 😂 think the padding was made of horse hair but I'm not sure about that.
Impressive. I'm glad you mentioned the difference in rules. The "old timey" stance is VERY effective. I think they just posed with their chin up for the staged photos. Leaning back maximizes the distance between your face and the opponents fist. Keeping one hand in front of the other gives you two layers of defense.
Leaning back makes it also harder to move and to keep your balance when you get hit
It works for swords designed to stab as well. If you look at old rapier training manuals, such as Capo Ferro, the stance emphasizes one lean back with most of one's weight on the back foot with the sword hand partially extended. This is opposed to the modern day where one is straight up at all times with weight distributed equally between feet and sword hand always cocked back unless striking. This is because the old style was intended to protect one's self, and modern is a sport where earning points is the over not being hit.
2 layers of defense? For what? Your stomach? The Old Timey stance is VERY ineffective. That's why they don't use it anymore. I would Like no LOVE to see someone go into the ring with a modern day boxer leaving his head undefended like that.
@@struggleboy2927 it protects the sweet spot not the head as the head is where you break your hands they went for the body which hurts more and ends a fight sooner using weaker punches to the head it's very effective in a street fight its just not effective in the boxing ring anymore (this is coming from a modern who had effectively used the old English stance in the streets)
@@Muscaplaysbare knuckle Boxing was more lineal than circular motion. More like Okinawan Karate, also that pose was heavinly influenced by Fencing. Many English boxers were also Fencers.
My grandfather was a bare knuckle boxer as well as a Golden Glove boxer. And a bar room brawler probably most of the time. He and my grandmother owned and ran a bar in the small rural town I grew up in. I can remember being a kid and sweeping out the bar on Sundays for a few bucks, a Bun candy bar and 12 oz Coke (the small bottles that needed a bottle opener) and there was a makeshift boxing ring set up where the pool tables were usually located. I can recall the horror when I cleaned up after a Saturday night. Blood on the floor, teeth, vomit and booze. Some guys would get knocked out and piss themselves. After that, I told Grandpa I didn't want to clean the bar up anymore. That is some intense shit for a 10 year old to see. When my mother found out he was letting me work in the bar on Sundays when she thought I was at Sunday school...
It was school, just not Sunday school
Probably learned more at the bar than you would in a church basement.
Maybe he fought my grandfather ( he was a prizefighter back in the early 1920's but had to quit bcuz of too many blows to the head..😕)
"When my mother found out he was letting me work in the bar on Sundays when she thought I was at Sunday school..." Yikes!
@@leerwesen you learn more in the back of the bus than in a church basement
If anyones wondering, in street fights and people take their shirts off...
Its so you don't get it pulled over your head, or used as a restraint.
well, that's a logical reason to do it and something i've done myself, when fighting the kind of person who will kick you in the balls with no remorse.
no one can fight like a man anymore, apparently. always 2-3 on 1, fighting dirty as hell.
i was going to add, a lot of the people taking their shirts off is to try and seem big and badass, show youre muscles flexed, etc. basically fuckboys with this "MAN ON MAN 1 ON 1 RAW LETS GO" teenager mentality.
but hell, that's far more respectable than jumping someone, even if you are a pacing, screaming, shirtless jackass before you get knocked out.
No it was more about not destroying their shirts. You didnt have T shirts back then. People tucked in their shirts also so the top comment is wrong.
@@thinkingworldwide3578 we're referring to modern times.
the shirt being pulled over your head is really only a threat in prison. it just isnt practical in a 1v1 street fight.
edit: and ofc like i mentioned in my first comment, when people are jumping people ita very common etc. hence why its so common in prison.
That's why hockey players must have their sweaters secured to their pants. It's known as the rob Ray rule
It's practical considering street fighting has no rules, can AND does get downright dirty.
So the old style is actually more useful for street fights where you have no boxing gloves?
Yes
Yes because the old style pugilism included standing grappling, throws and low kicking.
No - because it's a style designed around the rules and contemporary style of an organized sporting competition. It's assuming that you're facing a predictable opponent, which is why you're guarding your body and not your head; because that's where they were throwing back then.
There's NOTHING predictable about a street fight. Well, aside from probably a 97% that the chump your facing in the street doesn't have an ounce of legitimate skill. But, otherwise, the average fool willing to get in a fight on the street doesn't have the slightest concern about breaking their hands on your skull, so they're going to be swinging for it. And, even if they do break their hand, that doesn't mean that your ass won't get KTFO.
There's a reason why MMA classes haven't replaced self defense classes - MMA is predictable(for instance, no one tailors their stance to protect their balls from being kicked; since it isn't legal), street fights and attacks aren't.
No,because both styles are made around rules and trained people,in the street cunts follow no rules and they don’t have a stile that you can prepare against
No. No boxing technique is really all that useful in a streetfight. I box a little but just because I like to box not because I think it might help me in a street fight. You can use boxing technique in a street fight, but you can also use a knife. That's my point I guess.
Daniel Mendoza was also slightly insane. While going to watch a fight, he managed to get into 3 street fights. 1st one: another cart cut him off. 2nd: he thought a shopkeeper tried to rip him off. 3rd: a guy looked at him and he felt challenged.
He was probably a bit touchy, but he was Jewish and probably got a ton of abuse for it.
Clearly an asshole, who knows he fights better that other people
@@bitplayer7092 That excuses him for nothing. They already said why he started those fights. He felt inconvenienced. He's an asshole.
@@bitplayer7092 You can't tell most Jews are Jews by looking at them on the street. He was just another jerk who felt entitled to have everything his way.
Practice makes perfect!
Q. Who was the last person to box John L. Sullivan?
A. The undertaker.
Was it not Triple H ?
🤣
@@michaelgove9349 r/wooosh
@@mary9983 I think you got "whooshed" Michael mentioned "Triple H" because, like "The Undertaker" (a play on the original commenter's "undertaker" in the first comment), Triple H was a wrestling star. I'm quite sure Michael got the original joke. I think you missed Michael's subsequent return joke.
@@ImAlwaysHere1 thank you for your attempted mansplaining. Whatever would a girl do without you there to kill a joke?
I saw a boxing channel a few years ago that went into this as well. The boxer stated that in addition to the stance and head rules being different, the style utilized palm strikes more than closed fists (to limit hand bone breaks on the head strikes).
Great job on the video! for anyone else interested in the bare-knuckle era of boxing, I would advise researching Tom Molineux, Tom Cribb & Bill Richmond. The baddest men on the planet back in 1802 :)
Hey! Big fan of your videos.
Your channel is one of the best on YT
Jack Dempsey would have killed them.
Boxing legends TV...best on UA-cam, please keep making videos
Check out the UA-cam channel English martial arts as well
I just thought that’s how Irish men stand when they are at the pub
A boxers stance, and Irish men at the pub.
Is there a difference?
I'm an Irishman and can confirm the accuracy of this suggestion
@@hydorah Hay Hydorah, I have a question. I'm from the north of England, and I'm thinking of going on holiday next year to Ireland, maybe someplace south, rural, camping. Will the fact that I can play a few Irish songs on the flute increase or decrease my chances of getting a beating?
@@jasonyoung7705
Since you may be coming in with a brain injury, it shouldn't really matter.
@@bcast9978 Well I was born in Liverpool, and thats alot like having a brain injury :P
More random facts i can share to people who clearly have no interest in me or my thoughts.
upcummies
you just describe all the people on facebook
I love this fucking comment 😎👍
Bloody brilliant. Can I use that?
Relatable, have a nice day.
So MMA is retro.
It's actually more retro than you might think... Google pankration.
Allan Peda What is MMA?
@@thomaspick4123 Mixed Martial Arts: boxing with smaller gloves + kicks and grappling. Not that I am an expert.
Some of the really old boxing forms came from sword and shield training.
There's been a lot lost over the centuries because Europeans didn't idealize their fighting techniques as much as some Asian cultures did, and I really suspect that unlike the sword fighting shown in films, combat between armored men had a lot of grappling involved.
@@thomaspick4123 Mexican Martial Art
The ready stance of traditional karate, called kimai , today looks very much the same. This is still the most efficient way to hold the bare hands to respond to an opponent from all angles. MMA has many variations because it must also account for wrestling and jujutsu. In shotokan karate we were taught to aim the triangle formed by the fists at the center of the opponent’s sternum.
I prefer the "horse" stance. You can block all of your opponents attacks from this position. But then again, I only made it to brown belt. Maybe this is just a amateur talking out of his ass, but it sounds logical to me. Merry Christmas everyone! 😀
110 rounds! Imagine beating and getting beat for 7 hours! After about 15 minutes most people would just be swing limp arms windmill style hoping they just keep the other person at a distance.
15 minutes , try going all out for a 3min round and you’ll gas yourself out
Don't forget a round was up when someone fell down... They weren't even timed back then...!
Alex Picard the fight lasted that long because back then grappling was allowed and that's 110 times someone are another got threw to the ground at which time a round would end
Called a coward but yet his loss came from a guy pulling his hair 😑
When you put that beside being able to punch below the belt and grapple it's not cowardly it's Tuesday
@surfitlive Yeah they can be quite vicious. Fighting a honey badger would probably been preferable.
That what he gets... the dam dirty hippy!!! ;)
Probably called this by people he beat or fans of such.
'Guy's' who pull hair when 'fighting' tend to be much more girly than they are manly ! I never respected ( or liked) someone if it turned out that they fought like that.
I did two years of boxing. It is such an underrated martial art.
Keeping your right next to the body was also to protect your liver. That was a main target in old boxing.
you can throw body punches harder than face punches, unless you hit a rib, there are no bones in the way
Lindybeige had a video yesterday - albeit regarding another form of combat - and also stated that “the less the protection, the safer the fight.” for the same reasons - you don’t want to obliterate your opponent and destroy your own body in the process just to win. Case in point - the short professional life expectancy of American football players.
I see that you too, are a man of culture
Dang it I missed a lindybeige video, thanks for the heads up
Omg I love lindybeige! UA-cam algorithm failing to show me his videos in months...
Lloyd, I sent folks your way. I’ll expect my check in the mail.
hear... hear...
Having studied eastern martial arts for some 25 years the old stance has always made a lot of sense to me as it's a much more pactical option for a no holds barred match involving grappling and potentially facing multiple opponents. Interesting break down to see it parallelled with the rules of the time.
A concise answer in the first two and a half minutes for the mildly curious, then all the juicy details afterwards for anyone who wants to stay til the end
Excellently structured
As conceived in 1632 by Portuguese printing press operator Andre Filipe, boxing was a gentlemen’s game in which two men would square off and regale each other with stories monotonous for days on end until one of them fell to the ground from boredom or exhaustion. Over the next few years, the new sport developed a respectable following of a few hundred local socialites.
It was Filipe’s son, Andre Filipe Filipe, who developed what he called “the punching strategy” in 1637 after seeing a schoolboy strike another in anger, causing him to fall down.
When Andre Filipe Filipe challenged the then-champion, British ex-patriate “Sleepless” Bill Bishop to a match, Bishop was the odds-on favourite. You can imagine his surprise when while he was describing what he had had for breakfast that morning, Andre walked up and thumped him in the neck, sending him down “for the count” in the parlance of our time.
While it was universally agreed that the boy had violated the spirit of the game, officials were unable to find any actual rule that punching violated, and were forced to let the victory stand.
This upset caused an uproar in the boxing community large enough to spill over into local newspapers, and stirred the interest of many outsiders to come see what the fuss was about. The newcomers were enthralled to engage in these borderline barbaric displays of human strength and skill, and the rest is history - after a few spoilsport schoolmoms single-minded about safety added the padded gloves, of course.
Today’s boxing enthusiasts fantasise about the newcomer that would rock the ring the way Filipe did.
Classification of the modern ruleset has essentially locked the punching strategy into place; but it’s easy to get caught up in the fantasy. Young scholars with big dreams often enter the ring with their crazy new trick, usually a variant of hypnosis. And though they’ve achieved the occasional victory, none of the gimmicks have been robust enough to make it to the big-time.
The real wonder, though, is that Andre Filipe’s original vision of boxing is still around. Gentlemen’s boxing clubs can be found in cities all over the world; you can visit one most any day of the week and see two erudite gentlemen exchanging pleasantries in the ring.
Most people only come to watch a few hours of a match, and then leave. But every once in a while you’ll find amongst your elders a stout fellow, a die-hard fan, who perhaps witnessed that historic battle between Filipe and Bishop, who for love of the sport must stay to witness the last glorious seconds of wakefulness slip away, only to return to fight again another day.
God I was searching the comment section just for this post. The lack of Frog Fraction jokes is disturbing. :p
Wow. I wish I could give this comment a hundred thousand likes.
#TrueStory
I'd be surprised if only one person came up with the concept of boxing. Fighting is pretty much the world's oldest sport. In fact, I am pretty sure it would have been quite rampant in ancient times.
WOW..... THank you for this.
Yeah, the fists close up your face is generally a poor defense unless you and your opponent wears boxing gloves. Fists are small and will slip through, and even if you do manage to block you may just end up "punching yourself". Old-style barefist pugilists had this arms front form for a reason.
A lot of the earlier bareknuckle boxers had something closer to that though. Look up the stances of Daniel Mendoza or Tom Cribb. The low hand stance is more Jem Mace, and early gloved (where gloves were smaller), and came about as grappling lessened.
No
It is about time someone explained this!! OMGosh, I have had people try to tell me that the hand position was because they didn't know what they were doing back then.
Thank you so much for this video.
Wow, totally thought the guy was V-Sauce from the thumbnail.
It seems the old timey places the elbow in a position to protect from strikes to the liver. Part of the liver is exposed and vulnerable, just below the ribs on the right side. It can put a fighter down extremely well and very quickly. If you get very board, there are many examples out there on UA-cam in all the fighting styles.
southpaw wouldn't be able to do that due to the liver on right side of body it was to block ody in general there weren't just thinking of liver
I’m just giggling at the first person who got his ass beat cause his hands were low and was so confused to what happened 😂
They weren’t morons back then. Shoulder rolling was used far more often back then
*why is it every single girls group night out picture all pose by bending their knees* ??? That’s the question
Marcus W to look smaller and hide the fat rolls. Then because every girl was doing it and women tend to copy what the group do. That's why you see some women like clones. So now everyone is doing it.
ot4kon well I’d also like to know why women’s eyebrows look like seat belts now lol
And why they turn orange around the age of 12
jersey shore and the kardashian. youre welcome.
Marcus W because some beautiful women have natural thic eyebrows like cara delevine. Brooke shields and barbara palvin and women with boring slim eyebrows want that.
probably wouldn't look so "silly" and "goofy" while he was smashing your teeth in.
How do you know. Maybe their face is hilarious.
had a HEMA guy explain another benefit. since the fist was already upturned, it could quickly transition into a short uppercut to the chin. and as any fighter can tell you, being pegged in the chin solidly is a good way to get knocked entirely out.
Ryan Weible one of my old boxing mentors told me they squared up like this to avoid broken hands . Hard hitters are likely to break their hand bare knuckled with their hardest hit. proof being the new bare knuckle fighting championships . they constantly break their hands . they squared up protecting the body because most of them would throw majority body shots
He’d be punching you in the stomach
@@ryanweible9090 True, and not incompatible with protecting their hands. Anyone who has delivered or received a bare knuckle uppercut to the chin will tell you that it doesn't take a whole lot of force; to injure your hand, you'll have to hit much harder than necessary. I've been on both sides of it, and it's an undeniably effective punch. If you miss the chin, you either miss completely, or you hit something softer than the chin. Aim for the side of the head, on the other hand, and you might hit the cheekbone, which is very solid, or the side of the forehead. You'll also need more force. In fact, knocking someone out by striking the cheekbone is pretty much impossible. Aiming for the middle of the face would be truly stupid in a bare knuckle fight, as you'd risk kitting forehead, cheekbones and, not least, teeth. You may win, but you'll be picking teeth out of your knuckles for the next hour or so. So, I'm fairly certain that, among head strikes, the uppercut will have been the most popular.
I actually use this exact gaurd but just a bit higher. It's actually really effective. Just put it closer to the face and it can be very good.
Grabbing hair in one hand and swinging on the head with the other. That sounds like 2 hood girls fighting each other.
Hence the genius of extensions.
When did Simon level up and unlock the blazer? I'm so proud of him. :)
He's a big boy now!
Lmfao
He bought it with the free gold. He didn't level up.
@Grape Soda everyone gets 15 free gold for being in the beta.
lots of grinding I'd assume
Your channels are the absolute best.
I prefer your history lessons to the news and any of the current music channels!
Keep up the great work.
Because that's how real men pose.
"Mouth guard? You must mean my mustache!" ~Real Man
I don't need to protect my head against your fists, YOU need to protect YOUR fists against MY head.
Real men don't pose.
@@Carewolf imagine you go for a jab on someone and the guy just headbutts your hand full force and absolutley shatters it. that's alpha as *fuck*
@@__-bw5gb I saw that in a movie once. 1992 Gladiator with Cuba Gooding Jr and Brian Dennehy. lol
I recently watched a Boxing Match from the 1930s on UA-cam, the one guy got knocked down and every time the guy tried to get up the other guy beat him back down and the Ref just kept counting lol. 🤕
@Logan Waltz So it was basically a street fight with price money and more audience?
🤔
Sounds like the Dempsey-Willard fight.
1919 Dempsey vs. Willard. Those were the rules. No neutral corner required for a knockdown.
G from street fighter 5 uses this stance 😁
As often is the case, I come to these TIFO-videos intrigued by the title but thinking "10 minutes? Just give me the tldr version!" But I /always/ end up staying for the whole video as they are so well made and interesting! Good job!
Next do a video on why people don't realize that everything that is in style now will look ridiculous in 10-20 years.
Mumble rap lol oh god if it gets wors
Naw some styles will always look good. People that say that are just thinking about the 60s-80s
People with real style always look good.
"People with *real* style will always look good."
-Some French Dandy With a Massive Powdered Wig in the Baroque Period
Well it does not fucking matter... It looks good now. And twenty years later people will wear different shit. You can try to find a boring style, that kinda works any time or you can try to look fancy.
So it sounds like bare-knuckle boxing was cooler, safer and had a more tactical feel, why can't boxing go back?
Shizuo Heiwajima time constraints, bare knuckle bouts either end really quick or take forever. Vale tudo is bare knuckle and they only have a single 30minute round and most fights like i said either end really quickly or go the distance.
A good example is oleg tarkarov vs marcos ruas, it essentially boiled down to two men brutally beating each other for 30mins, almost entirely stand up striking.
Its a beautiful fight
@@IXSICNESS Yeah I don't watch a lot of fighting but I have seen like the first dozen UFC's and I remember the Oleg Taktarov fight with Dan Severn, and man can that guy take a head stomping
Shizuo Heiwajima yea he can, ruas was outboxing him, but they both wanted what was essentially a boxing match and stuck to that for most of the fight. Oleg did go for a few takedowns, but you cant hold that against him, as i believe he is more of a ground fighter, and almost 30minutes of non stop punching has to be pretty exhausting, especially when your opponent has better boxing skills
Part of it is optics - much more bloody due to the hands being uncovered and this was (and probably still would be) considered a bad thing
@@rabidfurify But, ironically, it is safer isn't it?
Honestly, this video probably saved my life as I was trying to work through my being sick from as lack of perspective on staying alive and an over abundance of booze. I listened to this video and needed to understand why Simon was singing what he was at the end. That brought me back into the fold. So thank you for this video. It’s a stupid thing but my daughter will be grateful.
Remember aswell that if you box without gloves, holding a high guard close to your face is not a very good idea.
it is when people are trying to punch your face. how the hell do people even upvote statements like this. haha wow
@@tmass1 it's much better to block and counter. Why let the punch even get that close to your face?
@@tmass1
You trolling?
@@tmass1 Not really - hold your fists up close to your face and they can just be slammed into your own face with an open palm jab.
Much better to dodge and use the extended guard to parry or intercept the opponents strikes.
Also a high guard leaves you open to liver and solar plexus shots, which are easier to land bare knucke and can be totally debilitating.
@@tmass1
What a bullshit point, argue with arguments instead, but yes, I have practiced both boxing and MMA, and to a lesser extent kung-fu and muay thai.
I have sparred with small gloves, and with large, and I can tell you right away that when guarding with small gloves, it hurts A LOT more when hit, but they still do protect you better than bare hands.
Also, MMA is a whole different sport than boxing, you can keep better distance because of kicks and grapples,, not comparable really.
The primary danger of holding a high guard in a bare-knuckle fight is that you are extending the range from which your opponent can hit you. You really don't gain much protection, and is giving up visibility.
You CAN ofcourse use your guard to block, but you risk serious injury to your hand and/or face.
Notice in these old photos, the head is always slightly back; thus keeping it safe distance relative to a head leaning forward. Make NO mistake about it. These men were f-ing bad asses. Jack Johnson was one of the toughest men of all time. When he lost to Jess Willard (Granted Johnson was passed his prime) that fight was a marathon in 95 degree heat. READ UP ON IT!
There's an interesting documentary from the early 1970s about Jack Johnson made by Jim Jacobs that has an accompanying album by legendary jazz trumpeter Miles Davis (A Tribute to Jack Johnson). He was a badass.
ua-cam.com/video/-8TdZFVj6tA/v-deo.html maybe the best rock/jazz fusion track ever was inspired by the man
Total badass. Will check out the documentary
Jim Jeffries was a bigger badass imho, He held the title for 7 years and retired undefeated, When he came out of retirement three years later to fight Johnson he was 100lbs overweight and lost it all in six months. He'd beat Johnson twice earlier in his career and as a former champ was the only person who could or would give Johnson a legitimate title fight. He doesn't get enough credit.
Jim Jeffries was a total and absolute badass!! He is worth big props and is totally underrated. Be a great movie to feature Jeffries & Johnson. P.S. Don't forget Sam Langsford
I love all of your videos, Simon! On all of your many, many channels! History FTW!
Back then a round ended when a fighters knee touched the ground. So, some rounds were only seconds long.
Yup. And some could be an hour.
@@kirklawson2218 Some were long, I don't think there were any close to that long. People would go down easy if it was advantageous, especially later on, and they'd often close and grapple or throw
Overall they tended to be a fair bit shorter than 3min, though you could get some longer. They could also agree to have a break mid round, atleast later on.
this was common around the world for martial practices because in a battle field if you go down, 12 people rush in with spears to stab the easy target and you are too slow to run away to your closest line of defense who would catch anyone too eagerly running forward
Did you have to include the faint whistling in the background for no apparent reason to make me have to pause the vid and question my sanity several times?
Your hearing is good I couldn't hear it until I looked for it but my speaker isn't quality
@Jonathan Stiles sounds like a tea kettle whistlinv
Whistling happens! You can't explain it, you can't predict it!
It’s music. For some reason.
Simon and the team: I don't know how you do it, but you somehow manage to make even subjects I'm really not that into, seem interesting. Thanks and keep up the good work!
"Punching someone in the face with your bare hands is a good way to hurt your hands"
Old-timey boxing sounds much more entertaining than this modern, snoozefest bullshit...
You don't really watch boxing then. Sure Gayweather and Wladimir Klitchsko were boring for a decade but many modern fights are classics forever. Gatti-Ward trilogy, Pacquiao-Marquez quadrilogy, Broner vs Maidana, Canelo vs GGG, and many more. The best fight of all time...Castillo vs Coralles, modern and all time classic.
Agreed
I dont know I think Mike Tyson would toss these "old-timey" men in the trash.
@@thinkingworldwide3578 Doubtful. The rules back then we're completely different. Most modernly trained boxers likely couldn't transition well. At least not right off the bat. It'd be like transitioning into a completely different sport really. Hell, I'd wager an MMA fighter would transition easier given the rules.
sounds more like MMAish with the grappling and such
The vertical fist and straight punch is safer for bare knuckles than the type of punches which can be thrown in gloves.
Also, in the old type bouts a round lasted as long as somebody was standing.
I thought it was the "hold my beer" pose.
And weirdly the stance now gets used on gameshows when the assistant turns and points to "what you could have won" prize
Hema guy here,
Fairly nice video. Absolutely true that this position allows for parries, grappling and voids. There are some examples and written descriptions as well as drawings of hands drawn close in older European manuscripts. Also there are and were schools teaching this as part of mixed martial arts of sorts.
Fencing with out a weapon, foot work and all. Think of how similar a Kung fu stance looks with open hands or Kenpo.
Cheers
JP
TL;DW : boxers use to box like this because they did not wear gloves, and when you punch someone In their skull the way we punch today, you are more likely to damage and break your hand or fingers. Punching the old way makes your punches hit with the harder part of your fists (the big knuckle at the base of the fingers).
my ol man & uncles used gut work to soften opponent up behind Moose Hall: they all had solid ball belly & hooked under 👊🏼 to stun
Thanks. Pugilism was an art of its own, and probably has a lot in common with modern MMA.
I don't think there's much in common with bareknuckle and MMA. From what I've seen of MMA there is very little similarity with bareknuckle. The punching in MMA is totally different, with a lot of off angle and odd punches, whereas bareknuckle (atleast the skilled fighters) used quite precise punches and had a big focus on getting good leverage. The fights were to the finish so once the sport developed they were very long and attritional like early gloved boxing. There also wasn't the ground fighting, a lot of the grappling was to throw your opponent, and in some cases land on them, to wear them down, though there was also stuff like grappling to hit while holding.
I think MMA has too much eastern influence to be much like bareknuckle
This is still one of the best stances. Highly Underrated
I bet in 100 years people will be asking some version of this question in regards to dabbing.
James Zetterman I have the question in regards to dabbing now.
What's dabbing
@@jonwayne1276 Is that you John Wayne? Is this me?
Nope. That was a stupid trend that no one over 16 cared about or did that died out within a year.
Wtf is dabbing?
Mum I want Michael
Mum: “we have Michael at home”
Michael at home
Professor Sins explaining the history of boxing (2019 colorized)
Michael at home: Hee hee! Chamone!!!
I am going to praise you for not dragging this question on FOREVER! I hate 10 minute videos where the entire video could be summed up in one sentence.
MENDOZAAAAA!!!!
I picture McBain as the boxer who defeated him
This is a question I never knew I had
Where did you get those eyeglass frames? Any link? Interesting video too. Thanks.
I thought that way back before dirt was invented, they weren't called "Boxers", but, "Pugilists". Simon! We need another video.
He does call them 'pugilists' multiple timrs in this video. He just didn't comment on the name.
A lot of people don't realize gloves are to protect your hands, not the opponents head. That's partly why boxing is a more dangerous sport than mma.
*mostly why. Constant blunt force trauma to the head.
Also in boxing you can be completely floored and still make it to a standing 8-count, only to be hit again, while an MMA fight is supposed to end the instant somebody goes limp.
I disagree. This used to be the thought but have you heard a lot of mma fighters that have been doing it for years talk? Jesus Christ! And they’re not even very old yet but that brain must be mush by now. I know repeated smaller trauma isn’t great but head kicks aren’t better and many mma fighters go all out in sparring with bigger gloves anyways and that’s where a lot of brain damaged is caused.
I’ll take a left hook with gloves to the chin over a flying knee to the mouth any day thank you very much!
Andy B my thoughts exactly
Great video guys! I really found it interesting
4:20 bonus fact - Daniel Mendoza was Peter Sellers great-great-grandfather
Well, he was a Jew when it was dangerous to be a Jew in England.
Heard stories about my grandpa, when he was younger he fought like this. And I guess he whopped ass.
Dont judge the stance until after the fight. Could be surprised.
Clicked on the video because the thumbnail has the same image hanging in Ron Swanson’s office from parks and rec 😂
I cant help but think of Conan O'Brien anytime I see that stance...
Go Team CoCo!
DIIIIICK thats my dad XD
Yea classic Conan, shame he became a silly person, and not the funny kind.
His visits to other countries are always great. I don't care about his show at all as I don't know the guests and stuff but Conan in Japan recently aired and that is really fun.
Minnesota Acoustic ....for me to poop on!!
Marquee of Queensbury rules always takes me back to “Perfect Dark”.
Newly discovered this channel and just subbed. This was great.
My great, great grandfather, Matty Mathews (welterweight - look him up) posed for a photo exactly like those. Interesting info.
Thomas Levy Stockton slap style
Awesome stuff dude
@@01dirtydirk Matty won TWO welterweight titles. How many have you won?
That's so cool
It reminded me of the default Teakwondo stance.
east asian martial arts based for war. attacking face with bare knuckles will lead to broken hand, and also easy to dodge, so wasting stamina in battle field.
fast punches to the body is useless because even the lowest of peasant recruit had padded leather armor, meaning that you need lot more power to make a good trade of damage for stamina. this is why east asian martial arts focus on breaking power, or joints (no armor on joints), or repositioning (make them go to where your team-mates are who will surround the opponant caught off sides with sheilds and thrust 100 spears into them (very effective trade to spend such little stamina to permanantly remove an opponant form battle field.
clearly europe had battle field expirence, and clearly had armor as well, as well as weapons, lances, swords, spears etc. so they know. naturally they will also use such a stance (except they fight with no shirt or armor, so they can use a stance with less winding force, since it takes less force to cause damage compared to a real war situation.).
When I used to do mixed martial arts ( wasn't a long time) I always held my left arm out like this but in a boxing stance, and I did this because my arm span was longer than most of the people in my club and my spinning back fist was my special.
Interesting seems really familiar to the karate Shotokan pose!
Justice Warrior exactly what I was thinking. Coming from amateur boxing when I first trained in Shotokan, my Sensei was always picking up on my guard being too close, muscle memory eh?!? It took until 6th Kyu in point sparring and kumite until I guarded correctly without a lot of conscious input!
Well, the old-timey boxers had their head protected by those glorious mustache's. Better than any helmet.
The ultimate defense.
A well groomed mustache would act like tentacles, enwrapping the opponent's fist and subduing it, giving a mustached man a great advantage. Some so entangled the opponent that the referees took to carrying barber shears for a brief period until "Cthulu face" was banned by Queensbury rules in 1867. -Fake history expert
yes... mustache's of this era were nearly impervious to all damage including being struck in the face with a chair or lounging sofa during a wild unrestrained bar fight or being pummeled during rare (but noteworthy) occasions by a horse that might have been slung around as a club with hooves during such altercations...
I knew from the start the answer would be 'because gloves" but i still learned a lot, great video.
I'm actually impressed I knew this one thanks Joe Rogan
Look at MMA fighters stances of today vs boxers. Ex: Conor McGregor vs Jose Aldo 2017. So the old-timey fighting stance makes sense.
Very well researched! Enjoyed the video.
I'm guessing the lower right arm also protects the liver.
Bingo. You should win a prize for noticing this. They said it in the video as protecting the 'abdomen' but really it's all about that liver.
Its all about the liver
#LIVER
One reason for why modern day boxing is so dangerous is the sheer amount of hits to the head the boxer takes in a match. Without mittens, or with lighter mittens (such as in MMA), there's a higher chance of getting knocked out, which in fact is less dangerous than the accumulative damage done by repeated trauma for 10 rounds.
Flying Dude Yes, the cumulative damage is the big difference, but it’s not because of knockouts.
Getting knocked unconscious _(into a coma, essentially)_ is _very_ bad. It’s not safer to get knocked out.
It’s the referee. As soon as a fighter is stunned or knocked down in mma, the referee is going to end the bout if the fighter cannot intelligently defend themselves.
In Boxing, they’re given 8 seconds to stand back up. Boxers can lose consciousness, and get up in that amount of time.
Even if they can barely stand, completely unable to defend themselves, the referee won’t stop the fight.
Good point, also with boxing gloves you can punch as hard as you possibly can. Bare knuckle you have to control how much power you put into punches to the face in case you catch the forehead. It's easy to generate enough force to fracture the small bones in the hands with a punch.
This is just nonsense. Wish these myths would die. Someone watches some fight science video where they hit a bag and think that is the only variable to consider.
It has to do with a moral Hazard. Wraps and gloves allow for full force punches to the head. No gloves or thinner gloves lead quickly to less powerful punches. Also has an effect on stance, bare knuckle went dominant hand forward valuing speed and balance over raw power.
Head gear also leads to more brain damage which is why the Olympics are likely getting rid of it.
The real problem with boxing and kickboxing is the standing eight count. They get right seconds to shake off a concussion and then get another, then another. A KO is just a major concussion.
Again, wish people actually understood causes of concussion. Accuracy and precision are more important than power. The right velocity guarantees a KO.
@kommisar can't say I know why your quoting me. I don't see anything I said about "these people."
MMA is where it's at. Boxing sucks nowadays, they call a slip a knockout or a stun. Hence Mayweather vs McConnor, McConnor got stunned not knocked out and the ref called the fight. After the late 90s boxing sucks!
Never gave it much thought, good stuff.
"Silly stance"
Tell that to Nate Diaz.
It was extremely effective. Still is.
@c ball
It doesn't punch backwards and obviously doesn't use more muscles or generate more power.
Using big gloves means you can punch a lot harder. If you were correct, which you are evidently not, all boxers would still use it.
They don't.
Anyone who has boxed can tell you that it's FAR more effective to throw hooks, straights, and over hands than it is to backfist.
Murdock from the A Team still fights like that.
Thank you for your presentation.
Look at "guard" stands in Tradition Martial Arts. Sees that the human body and henceforth the mechanics works the same way everywhere because it's LITERALLY (in fact) one of the best way to protect one selves ungloved. *flies away*
Because,if they put their hands on their hips,they'd looked even sillier.
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Great video! As always you look up your intel before making video, unlike so many others. I am boxer myself so always fascinating to find out more about the history of boxing.
That boxer at the end of the vid looks like the punisher actor. 😂
A lot of people don't realise that the introduction of gloves turned your hand into a blunt weapon, causing your opponent's brain to rattle around in his skull; resulting in brain damage.
Boxing guards where the hand is held near the head only work with gloves. Otherwise you can hit the opponent with his own fists.
"Why are you hitting yourself? Stop hitting yourself!"
You can still do it to someone wearing gloves if they don't know how to work the block properly.
That's why in Krav Maga the defense stance has you holding your arms at a distance from each other which lets you prevent that.
that is why you should raise your arm and brace it against your forehead when defending a strike to the face. the area you can cover with your lower and and elbow is much bigger than your fist and if you do manage to get the guy to smash his fist into your elbow it's even better.
One of my great great grandfathers was a miner and prizefighter, his name was Thomas 'Tripp' Evans, made some decent money as well couldn't read or write but knew his way round numbers.
So the Queenbury rules actually make boxing worse. They concentrate blows to the head maximizing the danger of coupe counter coup injuries? The old fighting techniques seem more like modern mixed martial arts bouts. I have to conclude that MMA is actual a more humane sport & is less injurious to its practitioners.
I know an mma fighter. Hes a farrier and had his ankle popped out. Most people would be out of action for 6 weeks. He was back shodding horses the next day!
bring back barefist boxing!
To be fair the Queensbury rules also got rid of things like eye gouging, groin shots, hair pulling, etc.
@@mutantmacrophage6653 W/ all due respect, brain damage from coup counter coup injuries is far worse then any of those things. I guess people back then didn't understand such things though. Lou Gehrig's is obviously named for Lou Gehrig, who was a base ball player. That is not usually a contact sport. "Bean balls" were a common fact in those days. Somehow whatever injuries he suffered were sufficient to induce the disease. I have to wonder at how little it takes to get this disease?
@@VictorLepanto Yeah I was just saying Queensbury wasn't all bad historically; like the guy said in the video they did some good too. Queensbury Rules is associated with being a 'legit' fight / boxing match. Too bad they didn't know any better about brain damage.
I can tell you as a boxer myself and as someone who has trained in Wing Chun, Both styles seek to control the centerline of the fight. If you cant get close, and the other fighter controls the centerline (the line where both fighter line up head to head) with a strong stance, that fighter will usually dominate the fight. Get into either of those stances, and let someone attack you with any other style. You'll find that the person controlling the center of the fight, will absolutely have the advantage of counter punching and speed punching right up the middle if they advance to attack.
The fist was out like that because it allowed a proper blow which on the bareknuckle Era was Diagonal punches with the palm up. The elbow pointing down allows for a straight blow. So when u throw your hitting with all the knuckles.
I've heard this rhetoric a hundred times, and I don't buy it. It's important to note that bare knuckle boxing still happens today, primarily in Ireland. You can go and watch them on youtube right now. You will note, that while they tend to jab more and are more concise with their shots, they still go for knockouts and use the high guard on modern boxing.
I would like to propose that the high guard was a thing that evolved over time, not because of gloves, but because technique improved as boxers from more walks of life and divergent styles affected the sport. Humans have been swimming for countless thousands of years, yet Englishmen used to exclusively swim the breaststroke until Native Americans demonstrated the front crawl, and the modern six-beat front crawl wasn't developed until the 1920's.
We can see the same process happening now in real-time. When I first started jiujitsu in 2005, the preferred finishing positioning for the guillotine choke was from a closed guard; now, the preferred position is one leg under and one leg over, which makes for a tighter guillotine.
We may have to accept that our ancestors just weren't very good boxers by modern standards.
I like it.
Modern bare knuckle fighters fight under post Queensbury rules, the rules change the way people fight. Nobody fights under London Prize Ring rules even bare knuckle today. The first recorded British boxing champion, won via armlock, to give you an idea of how much the rules have changed... If you changed the rules, the preferred stances would start to change.