I want to be clear here: The EDH rules committee is a seperate entity that is spiritually related to is but no directly under the rule/payroll of WOTC WOTC is the company with predatory marketing and bad reprint policies, the EDH RC made a decision for the health of a format Redirect that anger at WOTC by speaking with your wallet and having rule zero convos with your group to allow these cards in and ignore the ban if you want
I personally think the ban should have been the last option for mana crypt and jeweled lotus. There are many ways they could try to solve it such as giving cards power levels or limit when a card can be used, such as only power 9 games and above could use them. What is also a problem is the lack of transparency and how the 5 people in the RC just shocked the world, not even talking with the advisory. And that they are not consistent at all when it comes to the banning. Sometimes they ban a card because of their philosophy and other times their philosophy is just there and collecting dust. Last and not least is that they talk about this is for health of the game while also leaving sol ring as it is. They completely fine destorying many and many millions of cards value, but cannot dare touch golden boy sol ring is very disappointing. I could go on, but these 3 are what is most frustrating for me to see.
Thank you for this the hate at the rules committee has felt misguided and I would hate for the rules committee to stop taking actions to improve the format because of how this one was received.
@@Icyhot-wu8ugthe hate at the RC is not misguided by even the loosest definition. They did not ask for any input from the community whatsoever, had staff from WoTC within the RC proper, AND the CAG. They didn't even ask the CAG for their opinions. They didn't make this ban through the use of statistically significant data, they did it because they just felt like it. On top of that, the action taken so soon after major cEDH tournament organizers started throwing their hats into the ring to create a cEDH RC is no coincidence either. I feel this is partly them lashing out at that portion of the EDH community. They have not only failed the community but also Sheldon himself (may he rest in peace).
It will not be to hard to find a table that rule0s them in, you can ask yourself beforehand. Just know which card to substitue in the deck and you are ok to go I already usually bring cheap cards to swap my most expendive staples if I feel the table Is more casual, there's no reason to not do the opposite.
@camerons6028 calling people names isn't cool. Like any tournament there has to be rules they just doing what their job. If yiu don't like the rules then don't do sanctioned tournaments you can still use the cards in casual play or with your friends.
@@Capt_McNugget no, it's an expense. Unless it's a very specific collector car then it could be an investment. But in general things like games and cars are expenses.
@@Capt_McNugget no it’s not lmao. It’s an expense. Any real investor would tell you that buying hundreds of dollars worth of cardboard rectangles is not an investment portfolio. It’s little more than an idiotic decision
Honestly, when some people treat MTG as an investment portfolio it only encourages WOTC to raise prices and overprint high-end sets. I get that WOTC will raise pricing regardless, but when you buy expensive stuff it only creates more positive feedback that price increases are justified, we need to stop giving them more reasons. WOTC feels more and more that MTG is a premium product, less a game to be enjoyed by the masses, and more a product for the more affluent nerds and influencers out there in high society. Things didn't used to be this way, and too much self-indulgence from whales leads to others being priced out of the game. Like Prof once said " it doesn't cost WOTC more to print mythic rares than it does to print a commons, money or ink".
Same thinking applies to computer graphics cards. People SCREAM when cards are suddenly selling for $700+ but they also trip over their own feet to go *buy* those $999, $1299, and $1699 cards. If you scream about the prices of non-essential stuff like computer parts and trading cards while continuing to buy them, you are actually the problem.
Who would run the cedh ban list and people would probably be mad about anything they pick look what just happend with the last time they tried making a separate cedh death threats from people mad about the bans they wanted to do
Banned as commander - agree Different banlists - everyone who says that doesn't understands the point of cedh Cedh is an optimization of commander, not a different format like competitive drafting vs drafting with your friends.
Cedh are just sweaty commander players that lost the plot. The format should go its the worst single format the worst competitive format, it's even the worst singleton competitive format.
I feel like this is just a symptom of wotc making cards for a format that doesnt need specific cards. The joy of edh was finding cards and interactions that weren't thought of. I dont want wotc to make commander products cause it just turns every deck into some variant of each other
This is a based take. Play the game-buy cards you want in your decks-then hold onto em forever or sell them if you want some mew cards.....thats it. Ive lost well over 10k from cards going down in value or rotating out of standard and i dont care b.c i enjoyed the game every single second i played it.(Well maybe not every second XD) I think commander players are experiencing what a ban feels like for the 1st time lol....get used to it happens all the time lol
@@datdude15People won’t be quitting in droves. Casuals have no valid gameplay reason to be mad about these bans, and they make up the majority of the player base.
We’ve essentially lost the spirit of these types of card games. We’ve overhyped “chase cards” and allowed billion dollar companies to milk us dry and screw us over and to think it’s normal. I miss the 90’s. Playing alpha cards, Base set charizard Pokemon foils, legend of blue eyes and the base starter yugioh decks unsleeved. I’m not articulating my point very well but I feel like the essence of the games we play has been lost. Enjoying the cards and having them without any intent of profit. I dunno, man…
Thank you finally someone with some sense, if you treat a card game as investments, then you shouldn’t be shocked when overpushed power cards get the axe, at the end of the day it’s a game, I only feel bad for the people who lost on crypt
@@Capt_McNugget I don't know much about sports cards, but probably the different would be that, sports cards are not reprinted, meaning that if they are printed once it's all you have. Idk how it works but if the company that has the rights to the cards just reprint the old ones it's the same thing, your "investment" is tied to their decision. 2- would be that you don't play with sports cards, they are uniquely a collectable, they are not tied to how played they are or if it gets banned in a format (XD), they only have value if someone wants to collect them aka look at their pretty face. So tldr, sports cards and only collectables and you don't use them for anything and are not tied to anything, expect if they can be reprinted, then you are a bit of a d*** f*** if that's your investment. There's prob more differences between the two, i'm just not remembering them, but if you do some critical thinking you can probably figure it out by yourself and don't have to ask someone else on the internet to think for you.
@@Capt_McNuggethistorical sports cards are. Current era sports cards collecting is a fad and is not. Honus Wagner will always fetch a big value for instance but the current craze will die off like it had for decades. Most of those are likely to go to 0 and anyone who is expecting them to only go up aren’t paying attention to history. They have crashed to nothing and only a few remained with value. So yeah they arent investments and should never be thought of in that way. These are hobbies and collectibles. They might go up in value, they might crash to nothing. When buying into a hobby of any kind everyone should have the expectation that it will be worthless someday. If they increase in value that’s awesome! But that should not be an expectation.
Collecting does not equal investing. If you collect, treat your cards as being worth $0. If you want to "invest" you need to move you stuff at the point of profit. If you sit there with heavy bags of stuff you don't use you deserve to get washed.
Investing in reserved list is smart. Investing in anything else is a gamble. Just look at the price of Tarmogoyf today; a far cry from its hey day price.
Most people probably care that the things they are collecting have and hold their value. Or what is the point? If every card you can potentially open in a booster is worth the same, people would instantly lose interest. And the game would be dead.
I agree, the game was meant to be that: A GAME. I get the collectors side of it, but people who just collect need to remember it was meant to be played. I try not to use proxies myself, but I've become more excepting of others who do. Especially when the utlimate decision made of what can or cant be is the play group not the RC, but I don't mind letting the edh banlist hold in the group either.
There’s zero reason to buy any mtg product. You’re just throwing your money away. You’re playing commander. You’re not playing in an event or tournament. You’re not going to get deck-checked by a judge. Your opponent isn’t going to call a judge over because you’re playing with a proxy. Proxy all 100.
@@epicexplorationwizards didn't even ban the cards. Magic players really about to be more in arms that the unofficial body of people who make recommendations for an unsanctioned format did a thing they don't like than the billion dollar company hiring the Pinkertons
@@WibblyWobbly1905 But RC must have communicated it with them because Wizards knew about it in advance. They did shady stuff. They reprinted all the 3 chase cards. Dockside, Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt all within the last year for sales and they put packs of the commander set and ixalin set which contain those cards in the festival of a box to get rid of those packs that contained the chase cards before the ban. Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt were also banned out of nowhere with no hints at all. At least Dockside was kind of on the radar and people had a little clue it might happen. Especially Mana crypt being allowed for so many years and now banned suddenly and Jeweled lotus made just for commander and banned. It doesn’t sit well with many players you know.
It's wild players are getting more pissed that some people told them not to play cards in an unsanctioned format than when Wizards hired the Pinkertons, its a game, keep unionbusters and investors out and have fun playing
The mind set right now about the banning is 1,000,000% the same mindset that created the reserve list which EVERYONE complains about. I personally would like to see a system similar to Smogon in Pokemon, a committee that identifies a problem, collects evidence and feedback on the problem, then presents it to the community to vote on.
So I know this sucks but the reason I'm oki with the ban is because at my lgs there wasn't a game where I didn't see any of those three cards. Everyone at my lgs (40% so the vocal portion.) Are complaining about the bans. Saying it's the dumbest decision of the rc. It's better for me because now I don't have to worry as much playing against these cards when I make my bank or lower power deck. Asking for rule 0 is impossible in my lgs. Custom commanders, archenemy, uncards, planechase, extra rules. All of these are supported by the store just not the players. So I wanna play these more fun less competitive experiences and don't get that opertunity. Now I can play my jank decks and have a higher chance of winning. I know the comment is super long sorry.
ı mean just these three cards wont do that though if players at you lgs are playing decks that bordering on or straight up cedh, their deck will still dominate. What this ban did is just making cedh even less accesible than before. EDH was something of a safe harbor for investing on staple cards in a long period with this though player who can absorb 1000s of dolar worth of loss will just keep these high end cards while others will feel insecure about holding them
@rosecooldude1024 Yeah no, I promise you that these bans will not tip the entire game in your favor if you were already struggling. I also don't see how it's impossible to ask players to not run a cEDH deck.
@@refundreplayyou know if u call "this card is in every game and forces me to play higher power level than i want bc its that strong" just " i font like it" every single card could be unbanned, why should black lotus be banned, and dont say anything even remotely that it hurts the game bc then ill just say "so u dont like it huh" see the issue with dismissing a major issue they have on the format to a strawman arguement to laugh at
@@acg4523im sorry that bannings arent based on the price of the card dawg, if u have a black lotus, its gonna be banned bc its not a healthy card for the format, idc about your investment in this regard, tho i do feel bad ur collection lost value, but that should never stop a busted card from getting banned.
@@KyleTremblayTitularKtrey most local stores don't keep singles on shelves unless they are way overpriced. Also if they are still sitting on boxes they held them hoping to profit later which they deserve to lose the money..
@@KyleTremblayTitularKtrey damn LGS's were hoarding JayLos and Crypts? Sounds like a horrible business investment in my opinion. My LGS makes alot of money from CASUAL commander players actually you know... Playing the game. Which these bans will help and lower the overall power level of the format. Anyways stop crying and if you want to invest in something go into the stock market bro
@@datdude15 he seems to think that losers hoarding warehouses full of product are synonymous with LGS's. Heck, my LGS doesn't even 100% focus on Magic the Gathering. There's also Yu-Gi-Oh, D&D and Warhammer my LGS survives off of
His point was more don't buy cards you can't afford to lose. Or sell cards whose value is high enough that you'd send death threats if lost. Don't buy into the bubble if you can't afford to lose it when it pops (obv only applies to hobbies - food/housing/etc are needs, not wants)
@@mercuryc6669 So don't engage in the collecting portion of the collectible card game? Is MTG just a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario now? I'm screwed by cracking packs because that isn't a good way to get cards but buying singles means I might have to buy something that could get banned and made worthless and useless? Sounds like I should just sell everything and proxy everything. Which if enough people do will just kills small stores and the hobby over time.
@@BurtGjr you can engage in the collection portion while also taking into account that cards are not an investment so don't treat them as such. This has the implication that if you are not financially okay with a 100 dollar card getting banned, don't own 100 dollar cards. My most expensive commander card is like 8 bucks. if they want to ban that one then i think I'll live.
The reserved list is the whole reason we are even here. When the community bullied wotc to make that list they ser a bad precedent where players now only cared abput value and get mad if the value dips. It is toxic. And 80 percent of those complaining over these bans are more focused on value over format health and it sucks
Chase cards getting banned is painful for players who want to optimize and play faster. RC wanted social and longer games. Unfortunately, not always applicable, especially for CEDH.
Exactly. Ultimately, the RC needed to focus on regulating cEDH, and allow the social contract and rule zero conversations to dictate what people choose to do a more social setting. Luckily, this whole fumble has led to the dissolution of the RC, which needed to happen ages ago. Now, I'm not sure that WotC taking over is much of an improvement, but the RC has set a pretty solid low bar for caretakers of the format, so I'm happy to take the gamble.
I feel like out of the bans, jeweled lotus is one of the least egregious, even if it's the only one that can't be played in other formats. It's easily one of the worst designs wizards has had in recent years, and while it's cute on paper it leads to nothing but fast commanders and unfair boardstates. Say what you want about mana crypt, but not producing colored mana is a pretty big deal.
@@TheCubicalGuy I actually think Jeweled Lotus is the most egregious ban. It's an egregious design and shouldn't have been made, but it was printed 4 years ago. It's just as busted now as it was then, let's not pretend that it was something expected. As for Mana Crypt, it's literally the most powerful card in the format dog. It's Sol Ring but free, colorless mana or not, there's a reason it was 180$. You know what's harder to use than colorless mana? Mana you can only spend on your commander and only a single time.
Commander players are never happy lol despite the whole game bending over backwards for them. Other formats are dying for commander and some commander players have the audacity to threaten the rules committee for banning a few cards? Touch some grass. Never has a modern player threatened someone over a ban? This is the first time I have EVER heard of this happening, and of course it’s commander. The only people I feel bad for are the store owners who have these cards and can’t sell them anymore.
Doesn't change that this was discussed for a year or more, and wizards pushed product with these cards reprinted in them, fully knowing they woild be pulling the rug on the players.
@Ironbird1776 exactly. I was on the fence paying 250$ for festival in a box, but the fact they had CM and LCI collector boosters and I could potentially pull a MC or a JLo made me pull the trigger. It hasn't even arrived yet lol. I'm not a conspiritorial kind of guy but the inclusion of those packs feels pretty sus to me with this happening not long after it sold out.
Using magic as an investment outside of something like the reserve list makes no sense to me. Like if you want to run some sort of card store and sell cards, that's super cool! However, if you're just buying up multiple copies of a random card that can be reprinted at literally any time, and then complaining that you have like 40 copies of it sitting in a safe in your bedroom, you're the one who's wrong in this situation lol. Not the rules committee that needs to balance the game lol. The fact that so many people are butt hurt about this is so funny to me
@@bobthor9647 yeah, because there's nothing wrong with banning cards and a card game lol. Fucking get over it, it's so actually embarrassing how mad people are
@@bobthor9647 the players who do this are making both everyone's experience worse and their own finances. its like if a gambling addict insisted on playing slot games on full volume in your bedroom
As a casual, I LOVE this ban, it makes the casual side of EDH more welcoming to players new to the format and game as a whole. I think we all know of that one person who “slightly upgraded” a precon with a JL or MC and hoses a new player now that won’t happen
There’s always going to be a “feel bad” card in the moment. Crypt and Lotus will get the same “ugh” that Sol Ring gets. I’ve become sick of Farewell personally
I agree with your take. Also I'd like to add that the Rules Committee probably sees how fast WOTC is pumping out these sets now and potentially new cards like Nadu might slip through the cracks again to be released. Just a thought
I feel like it's a good direction, i would be OK with more bans (study, tithe etc...) even if I own and play some. When i buy i card i consider the money lost, not as an investment
Great video! Been watching your shorts for a bit, this is my first foray into your longform content. You nailed it perfectly. As a new (ly returning, extremely casual but wanting to improve) Magic player, I personally felt a rush of relief now that I really won't have to worry about the insane fast mana I've seen in YT shorts or the dreaded Nadu. If someone wants to play it, I'll likely know beforehand, and I'll probably proxy at least 1 super insane CEDH deck for the occasion.
The disconnect from this take is unreal, when I first started playing I thought $100 cards were a joke over the years I’ve realized I put time, money, and dedication into the hobby. Believing that opening powerful cards or chase cards were exciting not only for the value but for the chance to finally play it. My play group doesn’t care about bans because we want explosive turns with new and old cards working together we just don’t want thoracle to end games unconventionally with very little setup. With these bans rogsi is going to be even more dominant in cedh and when it comes to casual just proxy cards and play with others in ur power level. But this ban does nothing but leave a salty taste in people that did spend money to support top tier game pieces. Proxy everything in my opinion why waste the money if it’s not an investment
Telling people to proxy and agreeing with the rules committee while the rules committee is vehemently anti - proxy is confusing. They stipulate you still need to spend your money on expensive cards to play, but they are also happy to ban your cards so they suddenly can't be played in any format without warning.
If the rules committee was pro-proxying their relationship with wotc would be toast. In any case, you can agree with someone about something and disagree with them on something else.
@@Ollig999 It feels inconsistent to be saying that these bans are a good thing because they make the format more accessible while also saying you can just proxy any card you want. If you are an advocate of proxying any card you want, then there IS no lack of accessibility to a format because their cost is $0 for you bc you proxy them. Additionally - to suggest that it is easier to Rule 0 cards into a casual playgroup seems totally backwards.. If there is a published list of cards that are banned, it is way more likely for casuals to just point at that and say we're just going to use that.
@@spideray well the argument as I understand it is that getting upset at the bans because you lost value in your collection is silly when we should want cards to be less expensive on the whole. You can be pro cheaper cards and pro proxying with the recognition that most people don’t want to proxy a ton of cards
I'm just gonna copy and paste my comment from your original post with the exception of the last paragraph. You might not know this, but MTG is a CCG just as much as it is a TCG. If not for collectors, the game would've died in the 90s. I usually agree with your sentiments, but this is just a fat L of an opinion. Those "worst" types of EDH players were once as much of a casual player as anyone else and loved the game enough to start collecting the pieces to it. Choosing to ignore that is just plain ignorant and quite insulting to the audience that views your channel as well. This photo has nothing to do with holding the cards as you would stocks and moreso questioning why even buy MTG products (singles and sealed) when parts of it can be ripped away without warning? This B&R was quite literally out of left field. Hopefully, they will walk this decision back somewhat on November 18th. On the topic of cEDH though, these bannings have made Rogsi the best deck by leagues of any other contenders. It used to be debatable that it was the best thing to do but now it just is the best thing to play.
Collecting is not the same as investing. To answer your question about 'why buy into MTG at all?' It's to enjoy it while you can. Sure it can be ripped away, but if you didn't get satisfaction out of it while it was usable then I return the question: why did you even buy it in the first place?
@@Mobius_ll I'll answer your question as it pertains to commander: due to commander being an eternal format, any card you buy is supposed to safe to play with for long periods of time. For many playing buying Lotus, Crypt, and Dockside this was not the case at all. So now you run into the problem of consumer confidence. What if the next chase card they include in the upcoming 3 or 4 sets gets axed as well? That question will remain in the back of many player's minds who got burnt during this announcement. This is amplified by the fact that a member on the CRC works for WoTC and knew ahead of time that Crypt, Lotus, and Dockside would be chase mythics and still nudged the rest of the RC to ban them after said products were no longer in meaningful distribution.
It wasn't out of left field. The first thing I did when starting my own play group was to rule 0 ban dockside extortionist, mana crypt, jewelled lotus and a few other similar cards. these cards have no business being in a casual format. They are too expensive and the power level is too high.
@@Martin-qb2mw it was out of left field in the sense that there were no indicators of this happening. There's no data to show that these cards are a statisitcal issue. It was a ban made on feelings and not objective facts. Your group did the right thing by using rule 0 and the RC just gave the entire community the middle finger and said yall don't know how to use rule 0 so we're doing it for you. What's the point of giving the players agency when in the end it'll get stripped from us anyways? It's the illusion of choice
I don't understand where you guys thought that commander staples are unbannable, nowhere did anybody say these cards couldn't be banned, so far the only card the RC will not touch is Sol Ring, for obvious reasons. There are no statistics saying it was a problem, there are none saying it wasn't a problem. Objectively, these bans are healthy for the format. The RC is not obligated to cater to collectors nor should they, their only job is to balance the format and they did just that with these bans. Anybody buying into magic cards thinking their value is set in stone is ignorant to the market they are buying into, reprints, power creep, bans; they are all possibilities that can tank the value of your cards. The game comes first, collecting second. By the way, rule zero doesn't work outside of your own pod with friends or your kitchen table magic, at an lgs rule zero fails.
Edh Feels like it's changed its identity as a format; I used to view EDH as a vintage lite format, every card being legal (except the small ban list.) that made decks absurdly strong with the drawback of any card being a 1 of in a 99 card deck. Now, it feels like they are starting to lose this identity. At the same time, it's not lost yet. This identity change differs from a direction representative of the original EDH. People see a mana crypt and dockside ban as a cEDH ban, but this has repercussions on many high-power casual decks and will have little to no effect on lower-power decks. The EDH RC originally made the ban list to ensure lower power tables were still able to have an interactive game. The few exceptions, such as the moxen, were banned because they were too expensive. This recent ban diverges from that mindset, as we now ban high-impact cards. These are not cards that promote a noninteractive game. This ban has highlighted the most significant issue in EDH - a lack of ability to communicate and understand a deck's power level. Mana crypt, viewed as purely a cEDH card, is proof of this. Rule 0 conversation shouldn't be an I'm playing with x-banned cards or were playing with x-cards banned (except for playtest and silver-bordered cards); it should be an understanding of what power level everyone is playing. When that information is not well communicated and/or understood, the experience of all players worsens. (While I understand this is a complex problem with a complicated fix) This problem is a failure of the EDH RC's inability to direct and educate players on different levels of play. I hope the EDH RC will be able to fix the biggest problem of this format we all love. If not, we will see Edh diverge from its core identity.
ThatMillGuy : Magic the Gathering is not about investing ... WoTC: Commander Masters deck is 200.00 USD before hefty taxes. This guy is seriously on the side of the people stealing value from their customers. The problem is with WoTC ... Do not invest in anything they sell.
I disagree with the bans and I'm a game piece guy. If pokemon can print charizard at 5 dollars on the secondary market and 100 dollars with a unique art, magic can do that to. A game piece version and a chase version. Overall, the game is too expensive. Sealed is insane. 200+ dollar collector boosters and 150 dollar playboosters. I'm in favor of lowering prices, but that starts with wotc. Also, never seen anyone care about proxies in commander in real life. Only online have I seen the "I only play with real cards". Most of the people upset at lost value bought the card at 100+ dollars and thought their money was simply parked in another asset like gold.
No one was ever going to be able to sell all of those off - the people who've bought these cards as "investments" weren't gonna buy more copies unless the prices dipped, and they also would be making much more cash if they'd bought stock instead.
Dude, they didnt invest in the cards for the sake of making money. They invested in them to play with them. To put them in decks. These people youre calling out for "investing" wouldn't care if they dropped to zero dollars or not. They care because they can no longer use them. Their only use is as cardboard coffee coasters now. Would you spend $90 on a piece of rectangular cardboard with no purpose? Cause thats what these people did. They spent money to play with these cards and they're now useless. Its like buying a movie ticket and then finding out that movie got banned from the theatre. Or buying a new car just to find out the engine doesn't work. This take is awful. Please rethink this.
Sorry, but Scott Larabee (first name listed in the RC on their website) works for WoTC as Esports - Tabletop Operations Manager at Wizards of the Coast... Anyone saying there is no collusion between the RC and WoTC, is delusional. It may seem that banning Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt would hurt WoTC's plans for reprint equity, would be detrimental to them, but I guarantee there is a different angle on it and don't have all the pieces to the puzzle yet. We will have to wait and see.
So a few months ago I really thought on buying a crypt and I decided to proxy because it was $180 at the time and I just couldn't justify it, so I didn't. I also have 1 dockside and thought about buying a second, had it in my cart and everything but I couldn't do it. I am so happy I made the right choices there and don't have to feel bad about it now. That being said I can understand the frustration of recent buyers if they decided to buy recently and now they can't play the things they spent hundreds of dollars on
In my country commander tournaments dont allow proxys and to have a chance i bought the cards it was a fun ride but as i bought them i thought it was lost money
These kinds of bans hurt consumer confidence in our game period. Collecting is a cornerstone of Magic. None of these cards are vital to play the game. They did provide incentive for collectors to buy product. Which in turn puts more cards out onto the market. That leads to lower prices for many cards across the board. Our game cannot survive without collectors just as it cannot survive without players. Casual formats like commander require a conversation to determine what “fun” means for the players at the table. The RC is attempting to take that agency away from us the players.
Collectors should not expect their cards to retain value. That notion is silly, just like any investment nothing is guaranteed, even more so in a card game where these cards are pieces for play first, and collectibles second. To expect any card piece not on the reserve list to retain its value is willful ignorance of the reality of collecting cards.
@@pm859-u4y The “silly notion” cards retain some value is a major component of why Magic still exists as a game. Cards should be reprinted more regularly to depress extreme price fluctuations. That’s a Habro/ WOTC problem. No one would purchase boxes if cards retained no secondary market value. The game would die. This banning issue is around a non rotating casual format. Those of us who play modern/ legacy are all too familiar with cards losing value. I would never describe Magic cards as an investment vehicle.
@@tylerkirschner4544 a card's balance in the game it's being played in should take priority over it's secondary market value. people invested in short printed cardboard like it's a stock of cardboard stock and guess what? stocks can crash and cards can get banned. expecting them to be retain infinite value is a fool's perspective.
Honestly investing in card games like it’s an investment is like half a step better than NFT’s because at least they’re a physical object that does do something, but still, it’s about as dumb imo.
What I love about fast mana and tutors is the ability to tune up and down decks depending on what you play. If it's a trash commander with a hard, slow, bad but fun theme, you can add some tutors and fast mana to bridge the gap to playability. And if you play a strong commander with a strong shell, you can just remove some tutors and fast mana to scale it back. It's literally the Guage you use to adjust power level.
@@evra91then what's the point of having an Advisory Group if you strip away their main function of advising the CRC? They're just there while the MTG elite do whatever they want with 0 input from anyone else.
Maybe, they should realize this is a game and not a long term investment. Buy cards cuz you want to win and need it for decks..... Not because it will make you money.
Why not both, though? Don't get mad, but this isn't like a video game. This is backed by the game, and Mana Crypt is honestly the only one I'm that mad about bc it's so much fun.
@@shivandragon1651 I get it ... Especially if you had forked over money to get these cards, it sucks.... I just think people who invest in these things are gonna have a lot of heartbreak when the demand drops on some cards.
@@jamellelangfordiii3586 I don't think the demand will drop mana crypt is so tied into mtg like besides sol ring its an iconic card people as well as people who don't like the ban are going to continue to play with those cards, so while they are going to Def go down I don't think it'll be that crazy
The RC has explicitly stated mutiple times that they do not curate the banlist for cEDH. Knowing this, people spend thousands of thousands upon thousands dollars on cEDH cards and then get mad when the banlist aren't curated for cEDH. This does not make any sense on any level.
not a single person in cEDH has EVER wanted anything done by the rules committee for cEDH only salty casual edh players moan about the one bad egg who decided to call there deck with MC and JL a 7 at a precon level table. Every cEDH player worth there salt actually enjoys finding ways around beating the best deck in the cEDH sub-format. The real reason why we actually upset is that the bans now affects us MORE than it affects the causal play experience bc as it stands we also have to abide by it until something is done ie SPLITTING us off.
Cedh isn't a format, what you said is the equivalent of "hey the modern banlist doesn't dictate what you can play in competitive modern, lets play gitaxian probe"
@@lordtachanka2740 because that's called making another format, you end up with people playing both with all power levels of decks. For example of what I mean; vintage, legacy and casual countertop share the same card pool but have different ban lists and are different formats with different playerbases each with players playing decks of many varying strengths. Making a separate and less restricted ban list for cedh/edh would just be making a weird vintage-to-legacy like commander variant that ultimately serves little purpose.
The thing about Etali is that it's dependent on infinite mana loops and losing out on the best infinite mana loop will severely hinder, if not outright kill the deck. It'll be way more dependent on Food Chain now, at least.
Great video! Love the thoughts on the bans. But I was distracted the entire time by your two hands waving around. I'm wondering, have you always had that mic stand? I always see you holding your mic! (Being a bit cheeky and semi-serious)
If we’re saying market manipulation is any information that could influence the secondary market, then I think no matter what there is going to be market manipulation. Whether in advance or blind sided. We’re seeing dramatic changes in the market currently. My opinion is avoiding market manipulation isn’t the route to take but giving more transparency is better for folks to do with the information what they will. If they want to act on it or not is on them and if they benefit or get hurt by them it’s also on them.
This is the most depressing ban the cedh community has ever seen. The entire cedh meta game was warped around dockside. And with dockside gone the cedh meta game is now the wild Wild West. Blue was already the best color, now blue is so clearly above the rest of the color pie it’s actually comical. As a cedh player who hates playing blue this is literally a nightmare. I want my dockside back :(
I've never bought any of these cards but I have pulled a cool all art crypt & now the high I had from pulling a cool card Is gone and now im bitter cuz why should i feel good about pulling something?
cEDH needs its own banlist. The RC specifically said the banlist isn’t for us. It feels like CEDH players are left without a voice. missing a land drop is a death sentence. Nadu was obviously powerful and not designed to be played against precons but 3 equally competitive opponents. The idea that they are catering a banlist to a “casual format” where there is room for “rule 0 discussion.” Why have a banlist at all? These things should be self regulating, and for the most part are. In my opinion ‘Commander’ needs a list of Ban Recommendations that can vary from play group to play group. Where as CEDH becomes a sanctioned format with “hard bans” or cards that mathematically or logically break the game I.e shaharazad. I actually really like the banlist prior to the 22nd, but there are some cards I argue could come off for a higher powered format. Id also love to see no banlist Commander become normalized because I think that the shaharzad blink deck idea is hilarious and if someone wants to spend 500$ on their neat lil trick because they love the game so much, that should be encouraged.
@@atomicorca3062if they banned sol ring then they would've at least had some sense of consistency. This is the MTG elite deciding for the rabble that Sol Ring is fine but everything else isn't. So in other words, hypocrites just being hypocritical
@@khub5660 I agree with this for that argument but here's the other issue with that. If you ban sol ring then your just setting standard for what's acceptable in EDH and causing more of a divide when this can all just be rule zeroed honestly.
@@atomicorca3062 I agree with you but they already opened the floodgates. The 4 cards could've also been solved using rule 0 and look where that got us
This is a really strong response that alot of other content creators are missing. Thank you for compiling the key points here and calling out the blatant ridiculousness of most of the discourse happening here.
6:47 Because the amount of time the cards were legal in the format plus the statement on the RC website assuring players that EDH is a stable format, you end up building a trust and you actually get to play with your expensive cards. Banning Crypt violates the trust of the players who can't have access to those cards easily. Because with people buying actual cards, there would be no game or formats to proxy for. That talking point you make about better financial decision assumed the people who own these cards bought them all full price from their LGS or online. It's short-sighted to assume every person bought their Crypts or JLs, when I'm almost certain a very large portion cracked them from a one-off pack. While, yes, financial decisions are important and some people make terrible decisions on the daily. It is impossible to have a black and white stance on these bans because it does more than just evaporate potentially millions of dollars in the short term. The long-term ramifications potentially can cause a lot of invested players to quit.
I totally agree with what you are saying. Proxies are the way of the future. Gone of the days of having pride in your collection as I could just get banned. When did these cards ever have a negative effect on the format. When did rule zero stop working. I only have these cards in one deck and would only play them in similar power level. I don't think these card where ever a problem
I fully understand that if a card gets reprinted the value will drop. I got my mana crypt right after it got reprinted in double masters so it was at it's lowest in a very long time. The reason I have a problem with losing value from a ban vs a reprint is with a reprint the price will eventually go back up but with a ban most of the value is lost and just ripped from the players. And for most players powerful cards like crypt, smothering tith, rystic study, etc, are cards that people don't just buy because of price, a lot of people take a lot of time building a collection and trade for the cards they have. I took me about 5 years of collection building and trading to get jeweled lotus and mana crypt so watching a chuck of my collection get ripped from me hurts. I do understand your point to "just proxy everything"; But if there is no support for the game it will inevitably die. The game store you play at cannot support itself if everyone just prints cards. Also some people have their own reasons for not wanting to play with proxies and it is not from an elitist standpoint and bulling people who feel that way is even more wrong. It is like bulling someone for playing mario kart on a nintendo switch because they waisted money and could just play it on an emulator.
I think I am guilty of unwanted anger spewing it here and there with no real reason for the past few days. I met great people and joined multiple communities surrounding MTG. This game has brought me out of my shell and the cave I used to live in. Thank you for letting me see past my anger and just get back in the mindset of enjoying the game as it is and enjoy the friendship that is still here with me. ❤ much love.
The analogy I would use is that similar to the Federal Reserve you have a third party (CRC) is dictating the value of a card whether it is playable or not. It’s just as easy to have no ban list and have a rule 0 conversation for play groups. To say just play proxies why should I care about reprints, just play proxies? When you have cards that were the chase cards for a set that was sold by Magic which they profited from. People that earn their own money and can use it how ever they want to buy whatever they want have a 100% reason to complain if they had lost money overnight. I feel bad for anybody who invested into getting a copy of any of these cards within the last month. If there was a sure way to ensure the the CRC didn’t do anything that could in good faith show they didn’t commit what would be insider trading I think a lot of people would be more at ease with this. Magic should hit high end reprints more often as the high end card barrier is real, but who is coming into magic and instantly going for any of the cards that got banned. In closing of this comment I think like the Fed we should abolish the CRC.
The rules committee can ban whatever they want. You need to stop crying over the bans and just adapt to it. The cards losing value is not a concern of the rules committee. You can always rule 0 in those cards with other players consent. You should not compare the federal reserve to magic the gathering. The federal reserve debases people's savings by printing money their savings, people's savings is the only thing that should retain and even gain purchasing power, not a collectible card game where the company has made 0 promises to not reprint anything not on the reserve list nor ban cards that are expensive.
I am not crying I literally play 0 of those cards as they a crutch and hinderance to creativity. If you don’t think there wasn’t any advisement on which cards are being banned or allowed back into the format with the committee and wizards you are mistaken. At no point would a “sanctioned” format that has products and cards designed for it by the company that has no oversight of the format. This is less an issue of financial value just a conversation on lack of transparency and hypocrisy. Why isn’t a vote from the community? Would it be that crazy to instead of letting the format that is now bigger the what it was by at least 10 fold to allow the players some sense of control of it? As to the point of the comparison to the Fed it was hyperbolic in nature on purpose, but there are still ethical concerns of the decision that are made. In the most bad faith way possible what’s to stop them from banning a card waiting 6 months whilst everyone panic sells their cards and skyrocketing the value of said card as everyone scrambles to get it back? I think the simplest thing to do is get rid of the banlist. Let the people self regulate as they all ready do. There is a reason everyone doesn’t all play with mass land destruction.
The people who invest in magic and not play are the people who keep it expensive, they're the same people who want to keep the reserve list solely so those cards retain their value
A lot of the anger comes from the fact that both the rc and wotc knew this was coming for over a year, yet still used these cards as chase cards to justify higher prices for packs, using said packs to sell other bundles, and tricking people into spending their hard earned money on something they knew would be useless in the format people intended to use it for, as well as nuking their value. Its incredibly shady and completely betrays and destroys consumer trust and confidence in their product. Its not that i cant play the cards i wasted all that money on, they intend to continue using them in the pod i played in. Its the deceptive nature of how it all transpired and took place that left people feeling like something wrong just took place. That makes people angry. It drives down demand even further, causing even more damage to a product like magic cards.. they screwed their consumers, and their consumers are having a reaction to that. Hopefully, they react more with their wallets, cuz thats how you punish a large company like wotc. Not by threatening their employees. Personally, im still not sure how i want to proceed. I cant even look at my cards without getting mad. I feel like a complete idiot for buying into this crap right now.. i work hard for what little money i have. I cant believe i spent that much money on a card they knew was gonna be banned and worthless... so im not sure if i wanna sell what i got and recover what i can and move on, or try to get over it and just proxy from now on.. im picky about that kinda crap tho, thus why i bought the real cards in the first place, so idk if proxying is for me. So.. idk, man.. not sure what i wanna do.. just wish they wouldve handled this better.. profits over people tho..
Also even if you dont like players investing in the game, sure thats fine, but what about the thousands if not millions lost by many local game stores???
@bobthor9647 and the millions of people who play at them since they don't have the option of a local friend group to play with. Without the LGS this game would not be what it is today.
The tournaments I can attend within a 2-hour drive require real cards for most events, though some allow up to 15 proxies. RogSi was improving since the decks that slowed it down weren't stopping Nadu. But with J-lo banned, fringe decks and high-mana commanders took a hit. This change is only going to make green more powerful ( it needed the help) while hurting red. Sorry to my Gruul players, but your deck just took a major blow. Get ready for Kinnan to remind everyone why he's a problem that faster decks used to help keep in check
There seems to be a lot of unfair conflation of the term investment going around in the discourse. In most cases when people are talking about losing value in cards they’ve invested in, I take them to mean investing their time and money into their decks, not that they’re viewing dockside extortionist as part of their investment portfolio.
I agree with you way more than the dozen or creators I've seen about this. Sure, feels bad to lose money on anything, but people need to seriously evaluate their motivations and commitments to a CARDBOARD GAME.
I want to be clear here:
The EDH rules committee is a seperate entity that is spiritually related to is but no directly under the rule/payroll of WOTC
WOTC is the company with predatory marketing and bad reprint policies, the EDH RC made a decision for the health of a format
Redirect that anger at WOTC by speaking with your wallet and having rule zero convos with your group to allow these cards in and ignore the ban if you want
I personally think the ban should have been the last option for mana crypt and jeweled lotus. There are many ways they could try to solve it such as giving cards power levels or limit when a card can be used, such as only power 9 games and above could use them.
What is also a problem is the lack of transparency and how the 5 people in the RC just shocked the world, not even talking with the advisory. And that they are not consistent at all when it comes to the banning. Sometimes they ban a card because of their philosophy and other times their philosophy is just there and collecting dust.
Last and not least is that they talk about this is for health of the game while also leaving sol ring as it is. They completely fine destorying many and many millions of cards value, but cannot dare touch golden boy sol ring is very disappointing.
I could go on, but these 3 are what is most frustrating for me to see.
@@ThatMillGuyShaf
There are WOTC staff on the RC.
It has been confirmed though that they were in talks about this ban for over a year so wizards did know
Thank you for this the hate at the rules committee has felt misguided and I would hate for the rules committee to stop taking actions to improve the format because of how this one was received.
@@Icyhot-wu8ugthe hate at the RC is not misguided by even the loosest definition. They did not ask for any input from the community whatsoever, had staff from WoTC within the RC proper, AND the CAG. They didn't even ask the CAG for their opinions.
They didn't make this ban through the use of statistically significant data, they did it because they just felt like it.
On top of that, the action taken so soon after major cEDH tournament organizers started throwing their hats into the ring to create a cEDH RC is no coincidence either. I feel this is partly them lashing out at that portion of the EDH community.
They have not only failed the community but also Sheldon himself (may he rest in peace).
I'm not upset about these cards going to 0 USD. I was never going to sell them anyways. I'm sad I don't get to play these anymore
@maurygreen9451 This! I recently got a crypt and was super excited to play it. Now it's forced to sit on the shelf and collect dust
It will not be to hard to find a table that rule0s them in, you can ask yourself beforehand.
Just know which card to substitue in the deck and you are ok to go
I already usually bring cheap cards to swap my most expendive staples if I feel the table Is more casual, there's no reason to not do the opposite.
6 ppl decide your future.
It's not a sanctioned formate. Letting 5 Nurds in a little room telling you what cards you can and can't play with is weak. Play what you want.
@camerons6028 calling people names isn't cool. Like any tournament there has to be rules they just doing what their job. If yiu don't like the rules then don't do sanctioned tournaments you can still use the cards in casual play or with your friends.
I’m a collector, but calling it “investing” is how I gas light myself into buying the cards. 😭
that's very common. it's good that you are aware of it. it makes it easier to restraing oneself when needed.
This comment is so real. I relate so hard to this! 🫠😂
It is an investment. Maybe not a great one but indeed it is. You buy a car you are investing in an asset..a poor one but nonetheless
@@Capt_McNugget no, it's an expense. Unless it's a very specific collector car then it could be an investment. But in general things like games and cars are expenses.
@@Capt_McNugget no it’s not lmao. It’s an expense. Any real investor would tell you that buying hundreds of dollars worth of cardboard rectangles is not an investment portfolio. It’s little more than an idiotic decision
Honestly, when some people treat MTG as an investment portfolio it only encourages WOTC to raise prices and overprint high-end sets. I get that WOTC will raise pricing regardless, but when you buy expensive stuff it only creates more positive feedback that price increases are justified, we need to stop giving them more reasons. WOTC feels more and more that MTG is a premium product, less a game to be enjoyed by the masses, and more a product for the more affluent nerds and influencers out there in high society. Things didn't used to be this way, and too much self-indulgence from whales leads to others being priced out of the game. Like Prof once said " it doesn't cost WOTC more to print mythic rares than it does to print a commons, money or ink".
Same thinking applies to computer graphics cards. People SCREAM when cards are suddenly selling for $700+ but they also trip over their own feet to go *buy* those $999, $1299, and $1699 cards. If you scream about the prices of non-essential stuff like computer parts and trading cards while continuing to buy them, you are actually the problem.
BTW - people are still paying $90+ for a Mana Crypt today, I just looked at TCG's sales for today. Sell while you can, eBay is right over there.
Be ready for a Jeweled Ring in Commander Master 2025. 0 drop artifact, tap, and sac, and make two mana of one color for your commander.
I hope not
If it enters tapped, and you exile it instead of sacrifice it, it wouldn't be half as good as jeweled lotus and then would be fine.
@@Layjus123 make a Jeweled Lotus but it has Suspend 3! That will balance it.
ohwait.
EDH and cEDH need separate banlists, and there needs to be a "banned as the commander" option.
No thats too confusing *sarcasm* lol
Who would run the cedh ban list and people would probably be mad about anything they pick look what just happend with the last time they tried making a separate cedh death threats from people mad about the bans they wanted to do
Banned as commander - agree
Different banlists - everyone who says that doesn't understands the point of cedh
Cedh is an optimization of commander, not a different format like competitive drafting vs drafting with your friends.
If you make a separate banlist for "cedh" that's called making a new format numb nuts and you will see people build good and bad decks in both
Cedh are just sweaty commander players that lost the plot. The format should go its the worst single format the worst competitive format, it's even the worst singleton competitive format.
I feel like this is just a symptom of wotc making cards for a format that doesnt need specific cards. The joy of edh was finding cards and interactions that weren't thought of. I dont want wotc to make commander products cause it just turns every deck into some variant of each other
This is a based take. Play the game-buy cards you want in your decks-then hold onto em forever or sell them if you want some mew cards.....thats it. Ive lost well over 10k from cards going down in value or rotating out of standard and i dont care b.c i enjoyed the game every single second i played it.(Well maybe not every second XD)
I think commander players are experiencing what a ban feels like for the 1st time lol....get used to it happens all the time lol
I think the second this game becomes a financial choice rather than a game to enjoy it kills the fun
If datdude tells me he lost value in the thousands and still finishes with an XD and lol.. i dont know what to make of this 😏
@@eisberg7681 Idk lol losing money sucks but not as much as everyone quitting magic the gathering that would really suck
@@datdude15People won’t be quitting in droves. Casuals have no valid gameplay reason to be mad about these bans, and they make up the majority of the player base.
@@maximillianhallett3055 I agree with you. The newer players won't care and the old players are addicted XD 😭
This is the most reasonable take I've seen so far.
We’ve essentially lost the spirit of these types of card games. We’ve overhyped “chase cards” and allowed billion dollar companies to milk us dry and screw us over and to think it’s normal.
I miss the 90’s. Playing alpha cards, Base set charizard Pokemon foils, legend of blue eyes and the base starter yugioh decks unsleeved.
I’m not articulating my point very well but I feel like the essence of the games we play has been lost. Enjoying the cards and having them without any intent of profit. I dunno, man…
I mainly play cEDH, I like and understand the Dockside ban but Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt I'm a bit bummed about
Thank you
Thank you finally someone with some sense, if you treat a card game as investments, then you shouldn’t be shocked when overpushed power cards get the axe, at the end of the day it’s a game, I only feel bad for the people who lost on crypt
Saying magic is a investment is a cope many people have
Its like the people saying comic books where an investment in the 90s, with the same results lol.
Sports cards are an investment..Please explain the difference
@@Capt_McNugget I don't know much about sports cards, but probably the different would be that, sports cards are not reprinted, meaning that if they are printed once it's all you have. Idk how it works but if the company that has the rights to the cards just reprint the old ones it's the same thing, your "investment" is tied to their decision. 2- would be that you don't play with sports cards, they are uniquely a collectable, they are not tied to how played they are or if it gets banned in a format (XD), they only have value if someone wants to collect them aka look at their pretty face.
So tldr, sports cards and only collectables and you don't use them for anything and are not tied to anything, expect if they can be reprinted, then you are a bit of a d*** f*** if that's your investment.
There's prob more differences between the two, i'm just not remembering them, but if you do some critical thinking you can probably figure it out by yourself and don't have to ask someone else on the internet to think for you.
@@Capt_McNuggethistorical sports cards are. Current era sports cards collecting is a fad and is not. Honus Wagner will always fetch a big value for instance but the current craze will die off like it had for decades. Most of those are likely to go to 0 and anyone who is expecting them to only go up aren’t paying attention to history. They have crashed to nothing and only a few remained with value. So yeah they arent investments and should never be thought of in that way.
These are hobbies and collectibles. They might go up in value, they might crash to nothing. When buying into a hobby of any kind everyone should have the expectation that it will be worthless someday. If they increase in value that’s awesome! But that should not be an expectation.
@@mccoyrj452 You haven't payed attention at all to the sports card market for the past decade have you?
Collecting does not equal investing. If you collect, treat your cards as being worth $0. If you want to "invest" you need to move you stuff at the point of profit. If you sit there with heavy bags of stuff you don't use you deserve to get washed.
Investing in reserved list is smart. Investing in anything else is a gamble. Just look at the price of Tarmogoyf today; a far cry from its hey day price.
@@Monkey_D._Elliott pretty sure that's not how "investing" works.
Or do you not know about the IRS?
could not have said it better myself
Most people probably care that the things they are collecting have and hold their value. Or what is the point? If every card you can potentially open in a booster is worth the same, people would instantly lose interest. And the game would be dead.
Youre joking right
I agree, the game was meant to be that: A GAME. I get the collectors side of it, but people who just collect need to remember it was meant to be played. I try not to use proxies myself, but I've become more excepting of others who do. Especially when the utlimate decision made of what can or cant be is the play group not the RC, but I don't mind letting the edh banlist hold in the group either.
There’s zero reason to buy any mtg product. You’re just throwing your money away. You’re playing commander. You’re not playing in an event or tournament. You’re not going to get deck-checked by a judge. Your opponent isn’t going to call a judge over because you’re playing with a proxy.
Proxy all 100.
Once future sales mega tank maybe they'll get the message and change their minds on these bans
@@epicexplorationwizards didn't even ban the cards. Magic players really about to be more in arms that the unofficial body of people who make recommendations for an unsanctioned format did a thing they don't like than the billion dollar company hiring the Pinkertons
@@WibblyWobbly1905 But RC must have communicated it with them because Wizards knew about it in advance. They did shady stuff. They reprinted all the 3 chase cards. Dockside, Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt all within the last year for sales and they put packs of the commander set and ixalin set which contain those cards in the festival of a box to get rid of those packs that contained the chase cards before the ban. Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt were also banned out of nowhere with no hints at all. At least Dockside was kind of on the radar and people had a little clue it might happen. Especially Mana crypt being allowed for so many years and now banned suddenly and Jeweled lotus made just for commander and banned. It doesn’t sit well with many players you know.
@@thebigsquig what about the people who like just having the cards in a collection? I don’t mind proxy but I like owning the card itself
It's wild players are getting more pissed that some people told them not to play cards in an unsanctioned format than when Wizards hired the Pinkertons, its a game, keep unionbusters and investors out and have fun playing
The mind set right now about the banning is 1,000,000% the same mindset that created the reserve list which EVERYONE complains about.
I personally would like to see a system similar to Smogon in Pokemon, a committee that identifies a problem, collects evidence and feedback on the problem, then presents it to the community to vote on.
So I know this sucks but the reason I'm oki with the ban is because at my lgs there wasn't a game where I didn't see any of those three cards. Everyone at my lgs (40% so the vocal portion.) Are complaining about the bans. Saying it's the dumbest decision of the rc. It's better for me because now I don't have to worry as much playing against these cards when I make my bank or lower power deck. Asking for rule 0 is impossible in my lgs. Custom commanders, archenemy, uncards, planechase, extra rules. All of these are supported by the store just not the players. So I wanna play these more fun less competitive experiences and don't get that opertunity. Now I can play my jank decks and have a higher chance of winning. I know the comment is super long sorry.
The only justification for the bans I ever hear always comes down to "ban the cards I don't like." 😂
ı mean just these three cards wont do that though if players at you lgs are playing decks that bordering on or straight up cedh, their deck will still dominate. What this ban did is just making cedh even less accesible than before. EDH was something of a safe harbor for investing on staple cards in a long period with this though player who can absorb 1000s of dolar worth of loss will just keep these high end cards while others will feel insecure about holding them
@rosecooldude1024 Yeah no, I promise you that these bans will not tip the entire game in your favor if you were already struggling. I also don't see how it's impossible to ask players to not run a cEDH deck.
@@refundreplayyou know if u call "this card is in every game and forces me to play higher power level than i want bc its that strong" just " i font like it" every single card could be unbanned, why should black lotus be banned, and dont say anything even remotely that it hurts the game bc then ill just say "so u dont like it huh" see the issue with dismissing a major issue they have on the format to a strawman arguement to laugh at
@@acg4523im sorry that bannings arent based on the price of the card dawg, if u have a black lotus, its gonna be banned bc its not a healthy card for the format, idc about your investment in this regard, tho i do feel bad ur collection lost value, but that should never stop a busted card from getting banned.
Don`t mind me I'm just drinking finance bro scalper tears.
You mean your local game store losing thousands of dollars? Or specifically screw alpha investments and his followers?
@@KyleTremblayTitularKtrey most local stores don't keep singles on shelves unless they are way overpriced. Also if they are still sitting on boxes they held them hoping to profit later which they deserve to lose the money..
@@KyleTremblayTitularKtrey damn LGS's were hoarding JayLos and Crypts? Sounds like a horrible business investment in my opinion. My LGS makes alot of money from CASUAL commander players actually you know... Playing the game. Which these bans will help and lower the overall power level of the format. Anyways stop crying and if you want to invest in something go into the stock market bro
@@datdude15 he seems to think that losers hoarding warehouses full of product are synonymous with LGS's. Heck, my LGS doesn't even 100% focus on Magic the Gathering. There's also Yu-Gi-Oh, D&D and Warhammer my LGS survives off of
@@PressXtoDoubt how does your LGS make money from casuals? The group who openly brag about proxying basic lands?
Telling people to sell the cards off after the cards are entirely worthless is a weird solution...
its a solution that only makes sense when someone does not have a store. MANY LGS's have lost out on thousands because of this.
Ye bro is unhinged for that one. Sell your useless heavy bags to timmy guys!!
His point was more don't buy cards you can't afford to lose. Or sell cards whose value is high enough that you'd send death threats if lost.
Don't buy into the bubble if you can't afford to lose it when it pops (obv only applies to hobbies - food/housing/etc are needs, not wants)
@@mercuryc6669 So don't engage in the collecting portion of the collectible card game? Is MTG just a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario now? I'm screwed by cracking packs because that isn't a good way to get cards but buying singles means I might have to buy something that could get banned and made worthless and useless? Sounds like I should just sell everything and proxy everything. Which if enough people do will just kills small stores and the hobby over time.
@@BurtGjr you can engage in the collection portion while also taking into account that cards are not an investment so don't treat them as such. This has the implication that if you are not financially okay with a 100 dollar card getting banned, don't own 100 dollar cards. My most expensive commander card is like 8 bucks. if they want to ban that one then i think I'll live.
The reserved list is the whole reason we are even here. When the community bullied wotc to make that list they ser a bad precedent where players now only cared abput value and get mad if the value dips. It is toxic. And 80 percent of those complaining over these bans are more focused on value over format health and it sucks
Chase cards getting banned is painful for players who want to optimize and play faster. RC wanted social and longer games. Unfortunately, not always applicable, especially for CEDH.
Exactly. Ultimately, the RC needed to focus on regulating cEDH, and allow the social contract and rule zero conversations to dictate what people choose to do a more social setting.
Luckily, this whole fumble has led to the dissolution of the RC, which needed to happen ages ago. Now, I'm not sure that WotC taking over is much of an improvement, but the RC has set a pretty solid low bar for caretakers of the format, so I'm happy to take the gamble.
The type of player that quits this week , is the type of player I don't want to be sitting across the table for 1.5hours
And you wouldn't have to worry, because they wouldn't be interested in sitting across from you to play an hour and a half game
no worries buddy, I bet no one wants to sit across a table with you anyways lmao
This right here!
@@Sami_Ljimari making fun of people who get upset over cardboard struck a nerve of yours? Lol
@@sablesalt From a person upset about a youtube comment? Lol
I feel like out of the bans, jeweled lotus is one of the least egregious, even if it's the only one that can't be played in other formats.
It's easily one of the worst designs wizards has had in recent years, and while it's cute on paper it leads to nothing but fast commanders and unfair boardstates.
Say what you want about mana crypt, but not producing colored mana is a pretty big deal.
@@TheCubicalGuy I actually think Jeweled Lotus is the most egregious ban. It's an egregious design and shouldn't have been made, but it was printed 4 years ago. It's just as busted now as it was then, let's not pretend that it was something expected.
As for Mana Crypt, it's literally the most powerful card in the format dog. It's Sol Ring but free, colorless mana or not, there's a reason it was 180$. You know what's harder to use than colorless mana? Mana you can only spend on your commander and only a single time.
@@DylanHunter64 The most powerful card is Sol Ring especially since the RC just flat out said they are never banning it
Mana crypt is more powerful, but jeweled lotus is more broken.
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena Right, you know what would make Sol Ring even better? If it was 0 mana instead of 1 lol
@@TheCubicalGuy I think I know what you mean. Like, MC is better in most decks, but Jlo is more explosive
Commander players are never happy lol despite the whole game bending over backwards for them.
Other formats are dying for commander and some commander players have the audacity to threaten the rules committee for banning a few cards? Touch some grass. Never has a modern player threatened someone over a ban? This is the first time I have EVER heard of this happening, and of course it’s commander.
The only people I feel bad for are the store owners who have these cards and can’t sell them anymore.
idk some modern players were sending death threats over Nadu lol
@@mercuryc6669and Hogaak. And Splinter Twin. Just about every meaningful ban tbh
they dont want to ban sol ring because its in EVERY precon.
That would be a huge mess, but I bet WotC would just replace it with a Mox Amber.
Doesn't change that this was discussed for a year or more, and wizards pushed product with these cards reprinted in them, fully knowing they woild be pulling the rug on the players.
It’s weird how everytime I see a UA-camr defending this crap they just ignore this part.
@Ironbird1776 exactly. I was on the fence paying 250$ for festival in a box, but the fact they had CM and LCI collector boosters and I could potentially pull a MC or a JLo made me pull the trigger. It hasn't even arrived yet lol. I'm not a conspiritorial kind of guy but the inclusion of those packs feels pretty sus to me with this happening not long after it sold out.
Im suuuuper casual, and dont own these cards. Im still blown away by the ban, and how it came about.
Using magic as an investment outside of something like the reserve list makes no sense to me. Like if you want to run some sort of card store and sell cards, that's super cool! However, if you're just buying up multiple copies of a random card that can be reprinted at literally any time, and then complaining that you have like 40 copies of it sitting in a safe in your bedroom, you're the one who's wrong in this situation lol. Not the rules committee that needs to balance the game lol. The fact that so many people are butt hurt about this is so funny to me
Yes - sadistically blame players
@@bobthor9647 yeah, because there's nothing wrong with banning cards and a card game lol. Fucking get over it, it's so actually embarrassing how mad people are
@@bobthor9647 the players who do this are making both everyone's experience worse and their own finances. its like if a gambling addict insisted on playing slot games on full volume in your bedroom
As a casual, I LOVE this ban, it makes the casual side of EDH more welcoming to players new to the format and game as a whole. I think we all know of that one person who “slightly upgraded” a precon with a JL or MC and hoses a new player now that won’t happen
@@ethang7716 do you think you'll quickly find another card too powerful?
There’s always going to be a “feel bad” card in the moment. Crypt and Lotus will get the same “ugh” that Sol Ring gets. I’ve become sick of Farewell personally
Let's ban everything and proxy everything. See how fast game goes under.
Once future sales mega tank maybe they'll get the message and change their minds on these bans
Thank you for having such a well thought out video. I don't think I can take another "will commander survive?" Videos
I agree with your take. Also I'd like to add that the Rules Committee probably sees how fast WOTC is pumping out these sets now and potentially new cards like Nadu might slip through the cracks again to be released. Just a thought
I feel like it's a good direction, i would be OK with more bans (study, tithe etc...) even if I own and play some. When i buy i card i consider the money lost, not as an investment
Great video! Been watching your shorts for a bit, this is my first foray into your longform content. You nailed it perfectly. As a new (ly returning, extremely casual but wanting to improve) Magic player, I personally felt a rush of relief now that I really won't have to worry about the insane fast mana I've seen in YT shorts or the dreaded Nadu. If someone wants to play it, I'll likely know beforehand, and I'll probably proxy at least 1 super insane CEDH deck for the occasion.
The disconnect from this take is unreal, when I first started playing I thought $100 cards were a joke over the years I’ve realized I put time, money, and dedication into the hobby. Believing that opening powerful cards or chase cards were exciting not only for the value but for the chance to finally play it. My play group doesn’t care about bans because we want explosive turns with new and old cards working together we just don’t want thoracle to end games unconventionally with very little setup. With these bans rogsi is going to be even more dominant in cedh and when it comes to casual just proxy cards and play with others in ur power level. But this ban does nothing but leave a salty taste in people that did spend money to support top tier game pieces. Proxy everything in my opinion why waste the money if it’s not an investment
Telling people to proxy and agreeing with the rules committee while the rules committee is vehemently anti - proxy is confusing.
They stipulate you still need to spend your money on expensive cards to play, but they are also happy to ban your cards so they suddenly can't be played in any format without warning.
If the rules committee was pro-proxying their relationship with wotc would be toast. In any case, you can agree with someone about something and disagree with them on something else.
@@Ollig999 It feels inconsistent to be saying that these bans are a good thing because they make the format more accessible while also saying you can just proxy any card you want.
If you are an advocate of proxying any card you want, then there IS no lack of accessibility to a format because their cost is $0 for you bc you proxy them.
Additionally - to suggest that it is easier to Rule 0 cards into a casual playgroup seems totally backwards.. If there is a published list of cards that are banned, it is way more likely for casuals to just point at that and say we're just going to use that.
@@spideray well the argument as I understand it is that getting upset at the bans because you lost value in your collection is silly when we should want cards to be less expensive on the whole. You can be pro cheaper cards and pro proxying with the recognition that most people don’t want to proxy a ton of cards
I'm just gonna copy and paste my comment from your original post with the exception of the last paragraph.
You might not know this, but MTG is a CCG just as much as it is a TCG. If not for collectors, the game would've died in the 90s. I usually agree with your sentiments, but this is just a fat L of an opinion.
Those "worst" types of EDH players were once as much of a casual player as anyone else and loved the game enough to start collecting the pieces to it. Choosing to ignore that is just plain ignorant and quite insulting to the audience that views your channel as well.
This photo has nothing to do with holding the cards as you would stocks and moreso questioning why even buy MTG products (singles and sealed) when parts of it can be ripped away without warning?
This B&R was quite literally out of left field. Hopefully, they will walk this decision back somewhat on November 18th.
On the topic of cEDH though, these bannings have made Rogsi the best deck by leagues of any other contenders. It used to be debatable that it was the best thing to do but now it just is the best thing to play.
Collecting is not the same as investing. To answer your question about 'why buy into MTG at all?' It's to enjoy it while you can. Sure it can be ripped away, but if you didn't get satisfaction out of it while it was usable then I return the question: why did you even buy it in the first place?
@@Mobius_ll I'll answer your question as it pertains to commander: due to commander being an eternal format, any card you buy is supposed to safe to play with for long periods of time. For many playing buying Lotus, Crypt, and Dockside this was not the case at all.
So now you run into the problem of consumer confidence. What if the next chase card they include in the upcoming 3 or 4 sets gets axed as well? That question will remain in the back of many player's minds who got burnt during this announcement.
This is amplified by the fact that a member on the CRC works for WoTC and knew ahead of time that Crypt, Lotus, and Dockside would be chase mythics and still nudged the rest of the RC to ban them after said products were no longer in meaningful distribution.
It wasn't out of left field. The first thing I did when starting my own play group was to rule 0 ban dockside extortionist, mana crypt, jewelled lotus and a few other similar cards. these cards have no business being in a casual format. They are too expensive and the power level is too high.
@@Martin-qb2mw it was out of left field in the sense that there were no indicators of this happening. There's no data to show that these cards are a statisitcal issue. It was a ban made on feelings and not objective facts.
Your group did the right thing by using rule 0 and the RC just gave the entire community the middle finger and said yall don't know how to use rule 0 so we're doing it for you. What's the point of giving the players agency when in the end it'll get stripped from us anyways? It's the illusion of choice
I don't understand where you guys thought that commander staples are unbannable, nowhere did anybody say these cards couldn't be banned, so far the only card the RC will not touch is Sol Ring, for obvious reasons. There are no statistics saying it was a problem, there are none saying it wasn't a problem. Objectively, these bans are healthy for the format. The RC is not obligated to cater to collectors nor should they, their only job is to balance the format and they did just that with these bans. Anybody buying into magic cards thinking their value is set in stone is ignorant to the market they are buying into, reprints, power creep, bans; they are all possibilities that can tank the value of your cards. The game comes first, collecting second. By the way, rule zero doesn't work outside of your own pod with friends or your kitchen table magic, at an lgs rule zero fails.
Edh Feels like it's changed its identity as a format; I used to view EDH as a vintage lite format, every card being legal (except the small ban list.) that made decks absurdly strong with the drawback of any card being a 1 of in a 99 card deck. Now, it feels like they are starting to lose this identity. At the same time, it's not lost yet. This identity change differs from a direction representative of the original EDH. People see a mana crypt and dockside ban as a cEDH ban, but this has repercussions on many high-power casual decks and will have little to no effect on lower-power decks. The EDH RC originally made the ban list to ensure lower power tables were still able to have an interactive game. The few exceptions, such as the moxen, were banned because they were too expensive. This recent ban diverges from that mindset, as we now ban high-impact cards. These are not cards that promote a noninteractive game. This ban has highlighted the most significant issue in EDH - a lack of ability to communicate and understand a deck's power level. Mana crypt, viewed as purely a cEDH card, is proof of this. Rule 0 conversation shouldn't be an I'm playing with x-banned cards or were playing with x-cards banned (except for playtest and silver-bordered cards); it should be an understanding of what power level everyone is playing. When that information is not well communicated and/or understood, the experience of all players worsens. (While I understand this is a complex problem with a complicated fix) This problem is a failure of the EDH RC's inability to direct and educate players on different levels of play. I hope the EDH RC will be able to fix the biggest problem of this format we all love. If not, we will see Edh diverge from its core identity.
ThatMillGuy : Magic the Gathering is not about investing ...
WoTC: Commander Masters deck is 200.00 USD before hefty taxes.
This guy is seriously on the side of the people stealing value from their customers.
The problem is with WoTC ... Do not invest in anything they sell.
No base rarity/treatment version of a card should be over 20 dollars
it's a TRADING card game with rare cards, not ACCESSIBLE card game where everything is free
Why dont we stop buying real cards. Lets sell our collections and proxy everything. DAMN WOTC!!!!! start the revolution!!!!!!
Horrible bad take. Dude just puked up some nonsense. What a DA.
Careful youll get BANNED too LOL. Just kidding. His take is quite nonsense. Unsubbed and moving on.
I disagree with the bans and I'm a game piece guy. If pokemon can print charizard at 5 dollars on the secondary market and 100 dollars with a unique art, magic can do that to. A game piece version and a chase version.
Overall, the game is too expensive. Sealed is insane. 200+ dollar collector boosters and 150 dollar playboosters. I'm in favor of lowering prices, but that starts with wotc.
Also, never seen anyone care about proxies in commander in real life. Only online have I seen the "I only play with real cards". Most of the people upset at lost value bought the card at 100+ dollars and thought their money was simply parked in another asset like gold.
Calling players who risked their money to support LGS dummies is cruel.
127 Million Dollars of value roughly lost. Other youtuber did some maths
No one was ever going to be able to sell all of those off - the people who've bought these cards as "investments" weren't gonna buy more copies unless the prices dipped, and they also would be making much more cash if they'd bought stock instead.
It was supposed to be a COLLECTIBALE card game not now I guess 😢
the reason im sad is im 14 and i had work for 2 months to get my dockside for my kenrith deck for it to get banned 2 weeks after its a super feels bad
Wow. I am so sorry.
Dude, they didnt invest in the cards for the sake of making money. They invested in them to play with them. To put them in decks. These people youre calling out for "investing" wouldn't care if they dropped to zero dollars or not. They care because they can no longer use them. Their only use is as cardboard coffee coasters now. Would you spend $90 on a piece of rectangular cardboard with no purpose? Cause thats what these people did. They spent money to play with these cards and they're now useless. Its like buying a movie ticket and then finding out that movie got banned from the theatre. Or buying a new car just to find out the engine doesn't work.
This take is awful. Please rethink this.
Sorry, but Scott Larabee (first name listed in the RC on their website) works for WoTC as Esports - Tabletop Operations Manager at Wizards of the Coast... Anyone saying there is no collusion between the RC and WoTC, is delusional. It may seem that banning Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt would hurt WoTC's plans for reprint equity, would be detrimental to them, but I guarantee there is a different angle on it and don't have all the pieces to the puzzle yet. We will have to wait and see.
So a few months ago I really thought on buying a crypt and I decided to proxy because it was $180 at the time and I just couldn't justify it, so I didn't. I also have 1 dockside and thought about buying a second, had it in my cart and everything but I couldn't do it. I am so happy I made the right choices there and don't have to feel bad about it now. That being said I can understand the frustration of recent buyers if they decided to buy recently and now they can't play the things they spent hundreds of dollars on
In my country commander tournaments dont allow proxys and to have a chance i bought the cards it was a fun ride but as i bought them i thought it was lost money
That’s usually like 15% of tournaments
These kinds of bans hurt consumer confidence in our game period. Collecting is a cornerstone of Magic. None of these cards are vital to play the game. They did provide incentive for collectors to buy product. Which in turn puts more cards out onto the market. That leads to lower prices for many cards across the board. Our game cannot survive without collectors just as it cannot survive without players.
Casual formats like commander require a conversation to determine what “fun” means for the players at the table. The RC is attempting to take that agency away from us the players.
Collectors should not expect their cards to retain value. That notion is silly, just like any investment nothing is guaranteed, even more so in a card game where these cards are pieces for play first, and collectibles second. To expect any card piece not on the reserve list to retain its value is willful ignorance of the reality of collecting cards.
@@pm859-u4y The “silly notion” cards retain some value is a major component of why Magic still exists as a game. Cards should be reprinted more regularly to depress extreme price fluctuations. That’s a Habro/ WOTC problem.
No one would purchase boxes if cards retained no secondary market value. The game would die. This banning issue is around a non rotating casual format.
Those of us who play modern/ legacy are all too familiar with cards losing value.
I would never describe Magic cards as an investment vehicle.
@@tylerkirschner4544 a card's balance in the game it's being played in should take priority over it's secondary market value. people invested in short printed cardboard like it's a stock of cardboard stock and guess what? stocks can crash and cards can get banned. expecting them to be retain infinite value is a fool's perspective.
Honestly investing in card games like it’s an investment is like half a step better than NFT’s because at least they’re a physical object that does do something, but still, it’s about as dumb imo.
What I love about fast mana and tutors is the ability to tune up and down decks depending on what you play. If it's a trash commander with a hard, slow, bad but fun theme, you can add some tutors and fast mana to bridge the gap to playability. And if you play a strong commander with a strong shell, you can just remove some tutors and fast mana to scale it back. It's literally the Guage you use to adjust power level.
I find it wild that the CAG (Commander Advisory Group) wasn't even consulted and found out the same way everyone else did.
@@CasualKing21 I think is to avoid conflict of interest so they wouldn't sell their stock before the bans
@@evra91then what's the point of having an Advisory Group if you strip away their main function of advising the CRC? They're just there while the MTG elite do whatever they want with 0 input from anyone else.
@@evra91 Only the RC get to sell off their stock before bans
@@evra91 Except word got out, because all the major card companies pulled their buylist for these cards.
@@mooninites755 really? I would like some more info on that, do you know where I can look at it?
Maybe, they should realize this is a game and not a long term investment. Buy cards cuz you want to win and need it for decks..... Not because it will make you money.
Why not both, though? Don't get mad, but this isn't like a video game. This is backed by the game, and Mana Crypt is honestly the only one I'm that mad about bc it's so much fun.
@@shivandragon1651 I get it ... Especially if you had forked over money to get these cards, it sucks.... I just think people who invest in these things are gonna have a lot of heartbreak when the demand drops on some cards.
@@jamellelangfordiii3586 I don't think the demand will drop mana crypt is so tied into mtg like besides sol ring its an iconic card people as well as people who don't like the ban are going to continue to play with those cards, so while they are going to Def go down I don't think it'll be that crazy
This was such a god-awful take if i ever did hear one.
Blame the players - nice
This video is hilariously out of touch
Truly the most wack video I've seen from him in a while. I agree on some points but it's largely misguided
The RC has explicitly stated mutiple times that they do not curate the banlist for cEDH. Knowing this, people spend thousands of thousands upon thousands dollars on cEDH cards and then get mad when the banlist aren't curated for cEDH. This does not make any sense on any level.
not a single person in cEDH has EVER wanted anything done by the rules committee for cEDH only salty casual edh players moan about the one bad egg who decided to call there deck with MC and JL a 7 at a precon level table. Every cEDH player worth there salt actually enjoys finding ways around beating the best deck in the cEDH sub-format. The real reason why we actually upset is that the bans now affects us MORE than it affects the causal play experience bc as it stands we also have to abide by it until something is done ie SPLITTING us off.
Cedh isn't a format, what you said is the equivalent of "hey the modern banlist doesn't dictate what you can play in competitive modern, lets play gitaxian probe"
@@jucciie damn you actually think it matters, wild bro.
@@sablesaltI mean at this point why not just make it into its own format by making a separate ban list.
@@lordtachanka2740 because that's called making another format, you end up with people playing both with all power levels of decks.
For example of what I mean; vintage, legacy and casual countertop share the same card pool but have different ban lists and are different formats with different playerbases each with players playing decks of many varying strengths.
Making a separate and less restricted ban list for cedh/edh would just be making a weird vintage-to-legacy like commander variant that ultimately serves little purpose.
At what point do we say: hey wait a minute…they basically told us to go F%^K ourselves and are trolling us?
Letting 5 Nurds in a little room telling you what cards you can and can't play with is weak.
Play with whatever cards you want.
Once future sales mega tank maybe they'll get the message and change their minds on these bans
Right now
cedh player here. Little sad about losing fast mana but am always happy for a big former shakeup. Rest in peace Etali tho 😢
is etali still playable??
What cards would you add to replace the ones removed?
The thing about Etali is that it's dependent on infinite mana loops and losing out on the best infinite mana loop will severely hinder, if not outright kill the deck. It'll be way more dependent on Food Chain now, at least.
@@mb778_ true but what cards would you add?
is it right that the c in cedh stands for adapt and overcome? i´d see it like that :D
Great video! Love the thoughts on the bans.
But I was distracted the entire time by your two hands waving around. I'm wondering, have you always had that mic stand? I always see you holding your mic! (Being a bit cheeky and semi-serious)
The people crying is funny they gambled and lost it happens when you gamble move on
If we’re saying market manipulation is any information that could influence the secondary market, then I think no matter what there is going to be market manipulation. Whether in advance or blind sided. We’re seeing dramatic changes in the market currently.
My opinion is avoiding market manipulation isn’t the route to take but giving more transparency is better for folks to do with the information what they will. If they want to act on it or not is on them and if they benefit or get hurt by them it’s also on them.
This is the most depressing ban the cedh community has ever seen. The entire cedh meta game was warped around dockside. And with dockside gone the cedh meta game is now the wild Wild West. Blue was already the best color, now blue is so clearly above the rest of the color pie it’s actually comical. As a cedh player who hates playing blue this is literally a nightmare. I want my dockside back :(
Once future sales mega tank maybe they'll get the message and change their minds on these bans
Time for stax to come back they want to slow us down we can do slow too
When the meta is undefined, that is when cedh is the best
how is "it warped the format" a reason not to ban it lmao
The format needs to be warped every so often.
if proxies are cool then why buy cards ever?
You should be able to access the pieces to the game and you should be able to play the pieces you own.
This is the best take i have heard over the last two days 👏🏾. Your perspective should be heard by more players
Never liked commander, this is just entertaining
60 cards is just the right number.
Unless it's draft, then 60 is to many. Lol
I've never bought any of these cards but I have pulled a cool all art crypt & now the high I had from pulling a cool card Is gone and now im bitter cuz why should i feel good about pulling something?
cEDH needs its own banlist. The RC specifically said the banlist isn’t for us. It feels like CEDH players are left without a voice. missing a land drop is a death sentence. Nadu was obviously powerful and not designed to be played against precons but 3 equally competitive opponents. The idea that they are catering a banlist to a “casual format” where there is room for “rule 0 discussion.” Why have a banlist at all? These things should be self regulating, and for the most part are. In my opinion ‘Commander’ needs a list of Ban Recommendations that can vary from play group to play group. Where as CEDH becomes a sanctioned format with “hard bans” or cards that mathematically or logically break the game I.e shaharazad. I actually really like the banlist prior to the 22nd, but there are some cards I argue could come off for a higher powered format. Id also love to see no banlist Commander become normalized because I think that the shaharzad blink deck idea is hilarious and if someone wants to spend 500$ on their neat lil trick because they love the game so much, that should be encouraged.
I don't think the bans went far enough. Sol Ring shoulda ate it as well
Why because you can't draw it on the first turn? and you don't want others too?
@@atomicorca3062if they banned sol ring then they would've at least had some sense of consistency. This is the MTG elite deciding for the rabble that Sol Ring is fine but everything else isn't. So in other words, hypocrites just being hypocritical
@@khub5660 I agree with this for that argument but here's the other issue with that. If you ban sol ring then your just setting standard for what's acceptable in EDH and causing more of a divide when this can all just be rule zeroed honestly.
@@atomicorca3062 I agree with you but they already opened the floodgates. The 4 cards could've also been solved using rule 0 and look where that got us
@@khub5660 Yup your right about that.
This is a really strong response that alot of other content creators are missing. Thank you for compiling the key points here and calling out the blatant ridiculousness of most of the discourse happening here.
6:47
Because the amount of time the cards were legal in the format plus the statement on the RC website assuring players that EDH is a stable format, you end up building a trust and you actually get to play with your expensive cards. Banning Crypt violates the trust of the players who can't have access to those cards easily. Because with people buying actual cards, there would be no game or formats to proxy for.
That talking point you make about better financial decision assumed the people who own these cards bought them all full price from their LGS or online. It's short-sighted to assume every person bought their Crypts or JLs, when I'm almost certain a very large portion cracked them from a one-off pack.
While, yes, financial decisions are important and some people make terrible decisions on the daily. It is impossible to have a black and white stance on these bans because it does more than just evaporate potentially millions of dollars in the short term. The long-term ramifications potentially can cause a lot of invested players to quit.
I totally agree with what you are saying. Proxies are the way of the future. Gone of the days of having pride in your collection as I could just get banned.
When did these cards ever have a negative effect on the format. When did rule zero stop working. I only have these cards in one deck and would only play them in similar power level. I don't think these card where ever a problem
Thassa's Oracle is fine I guess
Later bro. Good luck with the channel.
Yea this video is a waste of my time. Totally disagree with everything this guy said!
MTG Players are like Crypto Bros FR FR
😑 the ignorance hurts so, so much
@@refundreplay My ignorance or are you agreeing with me lmfao
Mtg can be played, crypto has never and will never be been fun. It’s a currency it’s not supposed to be fun.
Hugely based video. Thanks for the update!
"Stopping someone from playing card is a negative thing"
Edh players when they realize the ban list doesn’t actually mean anything
My local card trading store had a jeweled lotus on display(a guy sold it to them) 2 days before the drop 💀
LMAO "PP PLANE" so glad i subbed now so i could hear that.
I love your pragmatic analysis. Very well presented. Keep up the good work.
I fully understand that if a card gets reprinted the value will drop. I got my mana crypt right after it got reprinted in double masters so it was at it's lowest in a very long time. The reason I have a problem with losing value from a ban vs a reprint is with a reprint the price will eventually go back up but with a ban most of the value is lost and just ripped from the players. And for most players powerful cards like crypt, smothering tith, rystic study, etc, are cards that people don't just buy because of price, a lot of people take a lot of time building a collection and trade for the cards they have. I took me about 5 years of collection building and trading to get jeweled lotus and mana crypt so watching a chuck of my collection get ripped from me hurts.
I do understand your point to "just proxy everything"; But if there is no support for the game it will inevitably die. The game store you play at cannot support itself if everyone just prints cards. Also some people have their own reasons for not wanting to play with proxies and it is not from an elitist standpoint and bulling people who feel that way is even more wrong. It is like bulling someone for playing mario kart on a nintendo switch because they waisted money and could just play it on an emulator.
perfect video. literally my thoughts. well done my guy!
I think I am guilty of unwanted anger spewing it here and there with no real reason for the past few days.
I met great people and joined multiple communities surrounding MTG. This game has brought me out of my shell and the cave I used to live in.
Thank you for letting me see past my anger and just get back in the mindset of enjoying the game as it is and enjoy the friendship that is still here with me. ❤ much love.
Unban Crypt and Lotus
The analogy I would use is that similar to the Federal Reserve you have a third party (CRC) is dictating the value of a card whether it is playable or not. It’s just as easy to have no ban list and have a rule 0 conversation for play groups. To say just play proxies why should I care about reprints, just play proxies? When you have cards that were the chase cards for a set that was sold by Magic which they profited from. People that earn their own money and can use it how ever they want to buy whatever they want have a 100% reason to complain if they had lost money overnight. I feel bad for anybody who invested into getting a copy of any of these cards within the last month. If there was a sure way to ensure the the CRC didn’t do anything that could in good faith show they didn’t commit what would be insider trading I think a lot of people would be more at ease with this. Magic should hit high end reprints more often as the high end card barrier is real, but who is coming into magic and instantly going for any of the cards that got banned. In closing of this comment I think like the Fed we should abolish the CRC.
The rules committee can ban whatever they want.
You need to stop crying over the bans and just adapt to it.
The cards losing value is not a concern of the rules committee.
You can always rule 0 in those cards with other players consent.
You should not compare the federal reserve to magic the gathering.
The federal reserve debases people's savings by printing money their savings, people's savings is the only thing that should retain and even gain purchasing power, not a collectible card game where the company has made 0 promises to not reprint anything not on the reserve list nor ban cards that are expensive.
I am not crying I literally play 0 of those cards as they a crutch and hinderance to creativity. If you don’t think there wasn’t any advisement on which cards are being banned or allowed back into the format with the committee and wizards you are mistaken. At no point would a “sanctioned” format that has products and cards designed for it by the company that has no oversight of the format. This is less an issue of financial value just a conversation on lack of transparency and hypocrisy. Why isn’t a vote from the community? Would it be that crazy to instead of letting the format that is now bigger the what it was by at least 10 fold to allow the players some sense of control of it? As to the point of the comparison to the Fed it was hyperbolic in nature on purpose, but there are still ethical concerns of the decision that are made. In the most bad faith way possible what’s to stop them from banning a card waiting 6 months whilst everyone panic sells their cards and skyrocketing the value of said card as everyone scrambles to get it back? I think the simplest thing to do is get rid of the banlist. Let the people self regulate as they all ready do. There is a reason everyone doesn’t all play with mass land destruction.
The people who invest in magic and not play are the people who keep it expensive, they're the same people who want to keep the reserve list solely so those cards retain their value
A lot of the anger comes from the fact that both the rc and wotc knew this was coming for over a year, yet still used these cards as chase cards to justify higher prices for packs, using said packs to sell other bundles, and tricking people into spending their hard earned money on something they knew would be useless in the format people intended to use it for, as well as nuking their value. Its incredibly shady and completely betrays and destroys consumer trust and confidence in their product. Its not that i cant play the cards i wasted all that money on, they intend to continue using them in the pod i played in. Its the deceptive nature of how it all transpired and took place that left people feeling like something wrong just took place. That makes people angry. It drives down demand even further, causing even more damage to a product like magic cards.. they screwed their consumers, and their consumers are having a reaction to that. Hopefully, they react more with their wallets, cuz thats how you punish a large company like wotc. Not by threatening their employees.
Personally, im still not sure how i want to proceed. I cant even look at my cards without getting mad. I feel like a complete idiot for buying into this crap right now.. i work hard for what little money i have. I cant believe i spent that much money on a card they knew was gonna be banned and worthless... so im not sure if i wanna sell what i got and recover what i can and move on, or try to get over it and just proxy from now on.. im picky about that kinda crap tho, thus why i bought the real cards in the first place, so idk if proxying is for me. So.. idk, man.. not sure what i wanna do.. just wish they wouldve handled this better.. profits over people tho..
Rip cedh decks:
Sisay
Nadu
Etb etali
Niv-mizzet
Feel free to continue the list in the comments.
Also even if you dont like players investing in the game, sure thats fine, but what about the thousands if not millions lost by many local game stores???
No one cares about them - except for the people who buy cards from them imo
@bobthor9647 and the millions of people who play at them since they don't have the option of a local friend group to play with. Without the LGS this game would not be what it is today.
We have been screaming from the rooftops for a decade or more about reprints being more needed.
The tournaments I can attend within a 2-hour drive require real cards for most events, though some allow up to 15 proxies. RogSi was improving since the decks that slowed it down weren't stopping Nadu. But with J-lo banned, fringe decks and high-mana commanders took a hit. This change is only going to make green more powerful ( it needed the help) while hurting red. Sorry to my Gruul players, but your deck just took a major blow. Get ready for Kinnan to remind everyone why he's a problem that faster decks used to help keep in check
There seems to be a lot of unfair conflation of the term investment going around in the discourse. In most cases when people are talking about losing value in cards they’ve invested in, I take them to mean investing their time and money into their decks, not that they’re viewing dockside extortionist as part of their investment portfolio.
My personal rule on poxies for my self is to have a copy of the real card but i dont put it on others unless its a rule of the store
I agree with you way more than the dozen or creators I've seen about this. Sure, feels bad to lose money on anything, but people need to seriously evaluate their motivations and commitments to a CARDBOARD GAME.