KMT 107 - Facing Titanium with indexable endmills
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- Опубліковано 2 гру 2024
- This week I have a stack of titanium handles that need to be thinner. Normally I buy 0.156" stock and have a shop waterjet and double disc grind them to 0.125", but I ended up with a bunch of thicker ones this time. It's a showdown between two of Tormach's modular insert tools, the 2 insert square endmill and the 3 insert toroid. I'm also playing with some higher SFM (surface feet per minute) settings and cutting pretty aggressively for titanium. Using an SFM of 470 lead to rapid edge wear, but turning it down to 250 made the inserts last a long time!
Enjoy the video, please comment if you have any questions or suggestions!
The two Tormach tools used here are:
www.tormach.com...
www.tormach.com...
Thanks for watching!
www.GrimsmoKnives.com
/ johngrimsmoknives
/ erik_grimsmoknives
I like the close up gopro shots. Got to do that on my videos.
John the Mitsubishi BOE4R1503X cutter has 8 cutter sides
With a gold coating. It is the best cutter I have ever used in my 30 years of machining. I use it all the time when I need to remove material fast
And get a unmatched finish. Here's the best thing the part will not get hot
The first time I was shown the cutter the sales guy had me put it in a mill
And take off .050 with the full cutter dia then he told me to turn the x handle as fast as I could to remove the stock so I did and the part was not hot and the finish was really good.this cutter is not like any I have ever used they got it right.
John, First off thank you for posting every vid you have. Very cool, thanx for taking the time. Take this for what it's worth, but if your serious about getting good footage, I have a simple fix for video'ing inside a water environment. I am a pilot in the military and I remembered an aero space company that had come out with a very simple "windshield water removal system". The just used directed air jets on the wind screen. If you just plumb a little plastic line and blow air on the lens of the go pro camera, it will blow the water drops right off. The faster the air, the less time the water stays on the lens. Air is much faster coming out of a nozzle than you think. It also generates, "based on angle" a thing in the industry called a laminar flow. What that simply means to you is water won't even make it all the way to touching your go pro lens. Sean
Man! That vacuum fixture has a lot of holding power!
Hey you should try running the faster code without flood coolant, use air blast, the coolant shocks the insert edge as it exits the cut causing the chipping, well this holds true for steel anyway, not sure in titanium, your sound is very clear! Much better!
Audio sounds great! For the GoPro, setup an air nozzle and blow about 40-60 psi on the lens cover. That will blow off the water and debris which keeps blocking the shot.
The ground inserts have been giving me about 2x the life of the for-steel inserts. The for-steel were cutting at about 0.015 DOC with no gaps in the cut, but still would start producing a poor surface finish after 5-10 parts.
The ground inserts ran at 0.03 DOC and had counterbores interrupting the cut, but still produced an excellent surface finish up to the point that they sounded like they needed changing. I probably could have gone much longer but I'm a bit over-cautious sometimes.
The speed/feed was just what gwizard suggested for a finish using HP carbide. Slow, but worth it. With more flutes, I think it would be hard to beat.
Very nice & impressive work John, congrat !
Little tip btw.. never use compressed air when you have no tool in the spindle..
Journeyman machinist here, I'm not too familiar with titanium, so I can't comment on rpm, but where I will offer advice is on your feed rates, on your button cutter (round insert) you're running a chip load of about .0095, and your square cutter is closer to .014 per tooth. I've always found a good starting place to be in the .005-.007 per tooth(or cutting edge) range. Just incase you're not familiar with the formula it is rpm x number of cutting edges x feed per tooth = inches per minute. Also you may have more luck with a tool that holds the inserts at a positive rake, much more free cutting. Your parts look good, keep up the good work!
Def better on the mic. I'm guessing the mic has a battery? Stock up on extras now. The audio gets dodgy when the batt gets low and there's not a lot of warning... You won't know the audio is gooched until edit time.
Check your rectangle tool again I'm thinking you will get use of all 4 corners of those inserts if you not only rotate it 90 degrees but switch the vertical mounted one with the horizontal one then it uses the opposite two corners. Looks that way on the video anyway. Love your videos keep it up.
Sounds like a better job for the surface grinder..?
***** way too much material for a grinder.... you don't really want to remove more than .005" with one
2 questions: Why trochoidal? Why conventional?
Unless you're pocket milling, slotting or cutting an interior radius, the trochoidal cutting is not really necessary. You're already maintaining consistent cutter engagement during a face mill operation. And this might have been a mistake, but the shoulder mill is doing a climb path while the button is doing conventional. Especially with the button cutter, you should take advantage of radial chip thinning with a climb toolpath. :)
I think you could dramatically reduce your cycle time with a fixture that size by using a standard X axis facing tool path and climb milling at a 50-75% stepover (or as large as the HP of your machine can handle...or just slightly less than the diameter from "point to point" of the circular inserts ).
With .500" of cutter engagement (remember that your SFM is not at the full diameter of the cutter itself, but where the widest point engages the material), you should be able to run that button cutter at 1500 RPM and 22 IPM (.005 IPT which the tool should easily handle) with a .030" DOC for roughing. That puts the point of engagement at 200SFM, takes .25 HP and removes .34 sq in per minute. Your fixture appears to be about 15" wide so about 45 seconds per pass and at .500" per pass I'm guessing 3 passes so 45 seconds per handle for roughing. Increase the stepover for finishing to just under max and I'm guessing that'll take 2 passes and even at 50% feedrate that's 1 additional minute per handle or 1 minute 45 seconds per handle total. That's a far cry from about 6 minutes!
Its good to see that FLOOD Coolant. Plenty of it just how it should be, the More the Better.Have you upgraded the Coolant system to improve the flow or just turned it up.And I now see what you mean when you mentioned in your talk at Tormach about replacing the drive spindle because it had to much rust on it, does look pretty bad to look at.
Nicely done! The toroidal cutter is very happy with a hefty WOC-I'm running 65% here. In grade 5 I push out to 275 SFM and the inserts keep on keeping on thankfully. The Super Fly can be a good addition to the strategy as well if you want to do a combo finish after the toroidal. Man I am amazed that you didn't crack the center cutting EM inserts at your original settings! If it wasn't for the copious amount of flood coolant it would have looked like a fireworks display inside your enclosure :-).
John, great video.
Looks like you've got a great setup; however, I'd recommend reading the manufacturers manuals on speeds and feeds for your cutters. I'd do this before spreading advice online. Additionally in your case, I'd probably suggest a dry run judging by your lack of confidence in your setup at 04:55.
All the best,
-JS
I agree with cab123454. There are books dating back decades that list the correct speeds and feeds for titanium. The noise of your cuts is an indication that your parameters aren't right. Furthermore, I don't see the point of a trochoidal toolpath for facing with an indexible. Seems like you are just wasting time. Judging by the dents on the door, you've had a few parts fly. I'd suggest some more planning and reading on your part rather than shooting from the hip on these setups. Ultimately I don't think I'd ever consider a Tormach after watching this video. Best of luck in all your future endeavors.
-MB
marrsooll Agreed, those chips fully suck at 09:25
marrsooll i agree... i dont think id take a tormach if someone gave it to me. The op is wrong, the tool is wrong, the speeds and feeds are wrong.. but hey... gotta start somewhere right?
That's a great comment, and I agree. You can't be an armchair machinist on superalloys, or they'll fight you right back. Proper cutting parameters and application techniques become so much more important once you move away from everyday materials. Also; unless you're copy milling, there's not a lot of sense using a button cutter for general use, especially in such a low rigidity machine.
I began my Masters for Emergency and Disaster Management today. I will own a Grismo Knife when I finish the degree in two years.... I will reference this in two years.
Referencing the go pro shot, maybe you could put a small air nozzle pointing at the lens to keep the coolant off of it. Just a little bit of air pressure should keep it clean.
Best quote evar.
"But with titanium you just can't rush it... or you just burn up tools" - J.Grimsmo
I relearn this one every time I drill some 1018 then drill some 6AL-4V titanium. On the lathe, its not too bad, but drilling seems to be the worst. I use a manual mill with carbide endmills, so that's not bad either.
Rough it with the round and finish with the square or surface grind a few thousands for a better final finish. Excellent work.
I thought indexable carbide endmills worked better without coolant. That's what I was told at the machine shop I worked at. We used Iscar HeliTang inserts for most of the facing work.
+1 for the Zoom. Its what I use, works pretty great so far.
The video looks way better this week! New camera?
Bro love your work! Also if I might add watching these vids you do makes me want to learn a whole new skill set! I would love doing this type of work for a living. It's like being a kid getting paid to play with the hot new toys lol
I know this video is old and the Mori is the daily user but I was watching this video again and I noticed your P- glass had cracks- Do all these enclosures doors/windows do this? This happend to my PCNC after a couple of weeks of use.
They kept backing off so I snugged them a tad bit more. I thought the prob was licked and then the cracks started small and grew!
Thanks John & Eric:) You guys are boog-ian along nicely!
Your button cutter was doing a CW path, conventional cut, and the square shoulder cutter was doing a CCW path, or climb cut. Chip thinning theory dictates using a climb cut because the chips get thinner as you exit the cut, reducing chip load, conventional cutting exits the cut with a thicker chip, increasing the load on the insert.
Hmmm. S4OT GRADE Sandvik ( amazon) kicks butt on titanium . But geez , G Wizard your programs feeds and speeds , I have found that more teeth, and bigger radius works best in titanium usually LESS RPM on titanium. Right?
Have you tried slowing down your spindle speed a little as it almost looks like you are scuffing or burning your inserts. Also it may help to add something else between your vacuum fixture and the table on the ends to keep vibration to a minimum. Just my observation.
Dont you have the surface grinder? Can you use a vacuum chuck on it?
I've read somewhere that if "a change of 20 SFM to 150SFM will result in a temperature change from 800deg to 1700deg F. I'm guessing on that SFM you're using it's way way way higher temp.
JohnGrimsmo Do you guys plan on attending the California Custom Knife Show in October?
this was really nice, thanks for this very educative video!
What is he using for coolant ! Is that just water I thought it was supposed to be oil and his spindle looks a little rusty idk . Someone help me understand
Very cool. When you started in the 400s SFM I was pretty suprised, I don't think I ever machine grade5 over 250 SFM. Nice to see slowing it down got you some better tool life.
The audio was fantastic, I noticed it immediately. I've been thinking about getting a Zoom myself. Link to the mic you're using?
do you sell back titanium shavings to recycler?
Whats wrong with the surface grinder?
Your lapel mic is definatly much clearer to listen too, I didn't hear the Air compressor or the vacuum hiss once in this whole video :)
What is the cost difference with a slower less aggressive feed and speed? PEACE :-)
Why not run adaptive and spiral in from the outside? A 45* face mill is pretty tough to beat, get it about 1/3rd larger than your scales, cover in one pass..
rob lockwood mm)?
I dont have much exp with titanium, but when i machine i like to have 2 of the same tools with the same holders and use one for finishing and one for roughing where i run the roughing one until there is not much left and i have to change inserts ore mill. and afther i started that i saved allot of tools. sry bad english.
Question unrelated to video: You make knives! So I'm intrested, what does your own go-to knife look like?
Dumb question (not a machinist): why not hit it with a fly cutter? Do those not work in Ti?
How did you crack the windows so quickly?
do you still make custom manix 2 scales?
The trapezoid cutter is designed for plunge milling with 3/4 engagement ....the round cutter is better for what your doing here
How were you holding those down? Is that a vacuum table?
+Suade907 yup! Mitee bite vac magic.
Hi John I'm hoping you can help me out, i got a Norman as a birthday gift and I absolutely love it but I have an issue, I took my knife apart to clean and lubricate and like a jackass I lost the working side of the pivot, i checked out the website but I couldn't find a contact email is there any way I can purchase a new pivot somehow. Love the videos btw great work all around.
If you are moving at half the speed, can the rpm still be the higher speed?
mrbluenun Yes, you just change the effective thickness of the cut. THis would not be ideal though as it causes unnecessary wear on the cutter. There are feeds and speeds, but they dont really go hand in hand for certain parts. The speed has to do with the surface feet / minute, which is dependent directly on the cutter RPM. The feed rate has to do with how much of a bite is being taken. This variable depends on both the RPM and recommended chip size. For a lower RPM, the feed needs to be slowed to maintain the same cut thickness. THis is varied by RPM/ number of cutting faces, and needs to be below the limits of the cuter.
Cody Smallwood Hello Cody,
I very much appreciate your reply and kind thought on this. This travel speed and rpm can apply to many situations and although I will never be involved in anything to do with this other than watching because I am an invalid, but sometimes my thoughts make sense, (just sometimes)!
I realise there is literally millions of possibilities for anything between these two parameters in any industry or even in a garden. I realise John is just demonstrating the possibilities which is helpful though will eventually come down to using what would have been the ‘recommended speed combos, just trying to push the envelope so as to speak, though perhaps the other materials like steel or any grade has criteria that is well know over the many years in use, the metal used in this instance is relatively new to the ‘domestic’ kind of use of course. I wonder whether john will ask the machine makers Tormach about this before spending hundreds of dollars on broken tools and or bad finishes?
Rem, how can I say this, … I am just as jealous as hell !!! - that I am not living in America and am not in the situation where I am healthy and or have the kind of money to buy or even rent any of the tools John has for even a short time argrueeee!!!! This is meant to mean "aggressive!" to make an item I have wanted and needed for many MANY years which is a "Tablet Stripper" where the tablets which are in foil and plastic, can be put through a machine, which in its most basic form resembles a washing wringer which simply pushes the medication out through the foil part of the wrapper you know.
I am an Epileptic in the UK BTW, and use 20 different types of tablets in substantial quantities, and I also have Auto-Immune Disease which makes the Eczema I also have much more aggressive than I would like and I always end up with cut finger-tips each month and have to work to stop infection and get these cuts, although superficial to heal.
I have had an idea for a tablet stripping machine for twenty five years and was called stupid, and this is one of the kindest remarks for thinking this was even possible! some people either are just hateful or have no imagination when it comes to anything mechanical right, I wonder if the invention of printing or the Lathe would have had the same kind of demoralising remarks thrown at them by those who have no idea what an ‘Engineers Mind’ is?!
Anyway I can because of my circumstances with the illness’ and finances, not even begin to start to manufacture this machine from scratch at least, imagine me having a seizure while using a post drill or lather??? - so I had to start manufacture with the only thing I could think of at the time which was before the era of computers, which is Lego.
I was able to build at least part of a machine but knew I would come to a grinding halt, no pun intended, when it came to any parts which allowed me to make truly strong enough a ‘machine’ to be able to hold together and push the tabs out, which to some degree I have done after the what seemed disastrously slow invention of ‘metal’ Lego pieces for use in the ’Technique’ type of Lego.
Three machines were invented, the first of which about 12 years ago, built precisely as per my ideas and ‘plans’ in my minds eye, and barely larger than a shoe box but the one that was invented, for the medical Industry by the medical Industry was at the time not for sale in any way to those outside the Industry. There has since, over the past 9 years been invented two other machines one of which I may well buy as it is ‘affordable’ at £3000. The first and the one I had in mind was Industry related and because there was nothing else like it at the time they could ask whatever the manufacturers could list as a price which at the moment is over £6,500, which is right off the scale when it comes to me buying one.
Anyway, please forgive my ‘rant’ I just wanted to let you know my ideas and that they were, after all, not ‘stupid or dreaming’ as has been aimed at my ideas but very much possible.
Take care
Thanks again
mrbluenun
why not have the round do the 1st pass with the round and the finishing with the square
I'm not a machinist but I thought flood coolant on carbide tools can cause chipping due to thermal shock. I don't know anything about titanium, does it need flood coolant?
Like I said I don't really know and wild like to hear what you think and have found.
David Queen That's a problem with ceramic inserts. With them you have to use no coolant, or shitload of coolant. That's because ceramic will shatter due to the rapid heat changing with small amounts of cooland. If you use lot of coolant or no coolant the heat will stay steady.
I'm not a machinist either, but I've been reading and watching those who are. I've heard that the flood coolant is almost more to clear chips when using carbide, which is more tolerant of heat than HSS, than to cool things. That's why some use air jets with a little mist added rather than flood.
-- Mike
That's what I've been reading too but I don't know how titanium machines. It could need the lube that flood coolant provides. John has a mill and has worked with titanium more than anyone I follow. Anything I could add would be guessing but I'm open to anyone who does machine titanium often chip in with comments on air blast verses flood coolant, if flood coolant can cause chipping on carbide tools, and if it does is it sometimes still worth using flood coolant even if they chip prematurely. John I'm not trying to say anything in the way you do it is wrong, you've had a long time to optimize your process. I'm looking for more in general info. It could be the chipping issue I've read about just isn't a issue when you have less than 2 hp to work with but is a major pain on much more powerful spindles. I don't know, that's why I'm asking those who do.
I just re-read your comment. It's much more insightful than what I remembered and wish I would have reread it before posting my longer post to the other comment. I probably wouldn't have posted it. I totally missed or forgot the part about a little flood coolant will cause shock and a lot will keep it stable.
David Queen You have to use coolant because Ti is flammable. We had a machine catch fire just from Ti dust. Oh and I am a machinist and have been for many years. Ti is fun to machine you just have to be careful.
insert cutters last way longer if you cut dry coolent will make the inserts wear out fast
Depends on the workpiece material. For plain carbon steel you're right, but Ti, stainless, and aluminum want coolant.
Hi John. I noticed straight away you have a microphone. I am so used to the older times where you didnt use one and now it sounds weird.I do like your voice noise though! Also I see you have started to use music in some filler clips. Again little bit new but can be okay.
Dont know much about machining ti but I love Ti so its always intresting. Keep up the great work!
Hendrik
for machining titanium, you should research work hardening, which Ti does readily.
I love the sound of facemills going slow like that, heres how we hog cast iron at work, you don't run these parts all day without ear protection: /watch?v=ieUEghroHM0 Wait for the finisher.
Now that you are low in the speed push the feed till your inserts start wearing again :P
may rattle bit less if u would not climbmill, ever tried out?
the speed and feed is ok but the tool Path is wrong ... i try with a smaller mill example 16mm and male a contour Path in trocoidal method ...
If i were you i'd get a 50mm dia. 5 tooth 45 deg facemill with tialn coated aluminium geometry inserts running at 60m/m (380 rpm) and .08mm/tooth feed rate (150mm/min) and just face across the parts which, looking at an estimated size of your part, would take about 45 seconds each.
fireblade 954 at least someone else knows you want a positive rake with titanium. Button inserts would just about be my last choice to machine ti with.
can't you do 1 episode completely i franche ?
it has been too long since a video.... please.. need. more. videos...
Send em out to be surfaced, aa?
Coolant or just water? Way too much rust in an ordinary machine.
+Christopher Liljeberg It's a clear synthetic coolant that did a terrible job of keeping rust away. Now I've switched to Qualichem in all my machines and love it.
+JohnGrimsmo has the Qualichem fixed the rust and paint peeling issues? Love your videos thanks for sharing them.
Watching this, and reading these old comments... just wow. It's amazing the guys trashing in the comment section, where now you'd be hard pressed to find someone in the custom knives business who doesn't know Grimsmo Knives.
Yeah, they're the talkers. John is a doer. Does he mess up and learn a lot, yes. But look at how his business has continued to grow.
I've worked with people who claimed to have been trained and bragged about their machining skills. And all of them left me disappointed. They may know little tricks here and there, but they're very rigid and unwilling to learn new skills and technology.
Hi there.
Another good video.
Yeaa, the sound MIC is spectacular. In fact I asked myself during the video ... "How do exchange camera and Eric go back to the Pcnc1000 and the sound is so good quality. Yea the video production quality of this exactly as the knives ... better and better. lloooll new position of camera operator very good also. """Tormach wallpaper , i see this before . . . hummmmm yeaaaa "NYCnc" :) :) :) ☺☻JeeJeeeJe"""
In relation tools not have nothing to add ... you are the expert;)
Well ... good chips. up soon.
i would tell you to contact you to contact tungaloy. I've used a lot of their insert cutters, and they specialize in high feed, high axial/radial felt of cut. I used to do .275 85 ipm 2750 rpm strictly for finish, across chemically treated stainless. Worked like champ.
carbide doesn't like impacts, try to keep your tool loaded.
might try a single button fly cutter.
And that will reduce impact how??
+Icutmetal The bulk of the impact comes whenever the tool leads into a cut. If the tool is always engaged, you avoid the impact from the lead-in.
That guy treats that machine like total garbage so crazy I don’t understand how you could treat that machine so poorly.
Seems like 1800 spindle rpm is way too high. All that vibration means your machine and setup is too flimsy. Need a good heavy machine for that kind of machining. It's an expensive learning process. And have a finishing tool in the program versus using burnt edges to finish the part. And try a smaller cutter
I was thinking that cutter is making too much tool-pressure for the limited rigidity of his machine. I'd recommend a 3/8" 5-flute stub endmill with a .090" corner radius like the HEV-S-50375-R.090 from Helical. I cut Ti and 17-4 with them every day and they do a great job with low deflection forces.
What you doooing with that one you crashed :P
take smaller dept or cut
@ some point you will need to machine exotic alloys like inconel 718 or duplex or maybe even hastalloy I look fwd to them vids I've spent many a shift and numerous amounts of cutter bodies and inserts finding a sweet spot that's on a Mazak or a makino so good look you will need it lol
Carlos ceramic inserts and fucking fast is the answer.
Speaking of fast feeds, today I managed to destroy a brand new carbide end mill by accidentally setting feed to 400 not 40 surface feet.
Surface feet isn't a measurement of feed.
Try cooling with a air line
Sound is better
seco tools // MP2050 // easy in Titanium ;)
Why don't you get your solid carbide endmills rebound then just use a a cutter dia compensation offset that's what 100 % of buissnes do sometimes you have to use a solid endmill you have no other choice
That should be re ground not rebound by the way
Reground cutters are no good for "high-speed", "high-feed" or other "high-efficiency" type machining because the software that wrote the toolpath doesn't know the exact diameter of the cutter. If you're optimized for a .375" cutter you're not optimized for a .360" cutter. I've also found that the edge is never as good; you get maybe 50% life out of them. That means the extra time it takes to deal with using the reground and the extra cycle time for a de-tuned toolpath costs more than a new cutter. Unless you're just a hobbyist or doing manual machining I guess.
Your geometry is all wrong, you want positive rake inserts and or holders.
Inserts are cheaper until you crash the body.
fuck... i need to go to bed :D
Very hard to get the chip loading right on a two edge cutter when your limited on horsepower and rigidity like you are when cutting.titanium.......all you can do is find a formula that works with what you have got don't over engineer it your chasing the impossible
I've personally never used a tormach don't have them in the UK as far as I know but your chip formation looks good enough for what your doing if your gonna be running big batches of titanium or it's going to be an ongoing job maybe investment is required ?
No disrespect, but if you have a good tool to do the job, then just get on with " the job" instead of making good TV!!
As a long serving toolmaker you can hear when it is cutting well just like welding!!
I can't watch. Way to high SF/M and coolant is thin. Check out Stellram tooling for Ti. Good luck.
Grim: So I have watched every vid yu'all have made, and they are most enjoyable. So when U B opening da books. I have $700.00 all saved up just so U can buy your little girl a new dress!!! Some time this year I hope?
I'll delete these comments after a day or so I don't want to be preaching on UA-cam
Well, it's not just the bit taking the brunt, its everything about your machine that will be jacked. Your problem, not mine. Machine repair/maintenance are not worth the speed or incompetence.
you are burning tools because you're taking way to big of a cut.
As someone that's been doing this stuff for a while, I will just say you wouldn't make it as a grunt machinist, let alone advanced machinist or God forbid programming.
+Ham Steaks that's why I have my own shop and get to do whatever the heck I want :-). Learning everything as you go with no-one holding your hand takes time and mistakes.
+JohnGrimsmo Well, aren't you just Mr. mega millionaire. I'll come back in ten or twelve years, maybe by that time you've learned something and hopefully your "figuring out" (on titanium of all things) didn't burn the place down.
+steve rohaley Did you mean to reply to my comment?
I was referring to, "that's why I have my own shop and do whatever the neck I want"
In fact I will be getting one for my garage soon too. :)
great... we need some weird knives and a manufacturer..
..what waste of time (and life)
How helpful of you.