How To Climb 3 Grades Harder Without Getting Stronger // Tom Randall of Lattice Training

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

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[@torgrimmy]

Link does not work

[@samstancea3613]

Not stretching or improper flexibility is the reason why I’ve had all my injuries and setbacks, even at 23 this is something that is super important, and I don’t see many younger people stretching or warming up.

[@user-jw5ze7uv4e]

I paid for a mobility and stretching course online recently which has massively helped me. One key take away from that, which seems to be misunderstood by almost everyone, is that you should stay in a stretch for at least 3-5mins for it to really make a difference to your flexibility! 15secs, or even 1min just won't do. You need to be relaxed and control your breathing also.

[@gezzapk]

Most of the sports science says that holding longer than 2/3 minutes is all you need and any more won’t help increase flexibility.

[@alexgalays910]

Absolutely agree. I was very disappointed when Dave McLeod mentionned flexibility was nothing major in climbing, close to zero need to train it in one of his video because you "can always use more strength or find a more difficult position to get through the move"; well that's missing the entire point, isn't it?

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

I’ll be chatting with Dave soon and will explore this more 🙌

[@partykrew666]

Ive had very good hip mobility and flexibility for a while now from years of meditating in half lotus and i will absolutely agree that its been very helpful for me on slabs and climbing in general. Especially as a shorter person (5'5") who needs to high step frequently to make bigger reaches. Its been an area where i can see clearly my advantage over people who do not have the same kind of range of motion as i do

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

🧘🏼‍♂️💪

[@cwehden]

It also helps to prevent injury, and for older male climbers is KEY because they get very stiff younger than women if they don't mantain range of motion.

[@verticaldreams1149]

It's actually the other way around. Flexibility increases the risk of injury. By increasing the range of motion in a joint you're actively weaken the ligaments and tissue and the joint becomes unstable. Joints like stiffness. It's logical when you think about it. You can rarely hear that stuff on climbing channels as everybody talks about benefits of it and it does have benefits but it also comes with downsides. This is pretty mainstream knowledge. Just google the correlation between flexibility and injuries

[@cwehden]

@@verticaldreams1149 No amount of google or studies sighted will convince me on this one.

[@emmaaxelson7821]

​@verticaldreams1149 you need mobility, not flexibility

[@DadiszFekete]

@@verticaldreams1149 I am not sure you're right. As a person who has been doing yoga more or less on a daily basis for a year now I can say it has reduced the amount of injuries, ceased the pain in my right wrist and lumbar pain.

[@imaboostedanimal2774]

@@verticaldreams1149 You're not supposed to stretch the joint ligaments. increasing the range of motion with which your muscles and tendons can move decreases your risk of injury, especially in unpredictable and explosive sports

[@sco9114]

didnt know when to stop training for the middle split, now I know, thank you!

[@AdamL_18]

this video hit at the right moment. i was looking to improve flexibillity ans mobillity since i feel its a very limiting factor in many climbs. since im a quite tall climber, i struggle to make some position that my shorter friend have absolute non issues with.

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

Us tall climbers don’t always have it so easy after all! Glad this was a good reminder to get working on mobility. It has been a grind for me, but I do see a difference on the wall.

[@V8chump]

I think this is the worst when it comes to indoor bouldering. At my gym for instance, all the setters are below average height, like 5’5” women and 5’8” guys who have very short arms and sometimes they set the most crunched problems ever and I swear they don’t even realize it 🤣😅. I feel like being tall is almost a non factor on bouldering unless you can completely break the sequence which often isn’t possible at higher grades

[@AdamL_18]

@@V8chumpyeah 100% agree on that ! breaking the beta for a taller climber is possible more in the lower grade like v3-v5.. but once you start going up the grades every movement has to be done with so much precision that breaking the beta becomes less lilely.

[@V8chump]

@@AdamL_18 yep not to mention the holds become fewer and far between or just get to the point where you NEED to be in a specific position to even hold them. I’ve found this outside a few times but not nearly as bad… mostly bc outside the holds are just so dogshit that I don’t think height is the determining factor…. Im working on an outdoor v9 for a couple sessions now and it’s crazy how bad the holds are vs indoors, but alas, I’m on the last move… felt the last hold even 🙏🏼

[@AdamL_18]

@V8chump I wish you the best of luck on that project ! Outdoor bouldering is a beast of itself. You have to tame the wild

[@Veloxzr]

Frog position fully flat against the wall to "not be terrible"... looks like I'm going to be terrible for quite a while still :D

[@calar8]

Ya, I can second this. I climbed my first V7 solely because I had been hard training flexibility.

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

Awesome! Any tips on what / how you trained?

[@calar8]

@@thestruggleclimbingshow I found an old routine done by Movement for Climbers. Did that 3 times a week before bed.

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

@@calar8 Thanks, will check that out!

[@DaneFerolin]

i’m a very mobile climber, absolutely helps you climb to the best of your ability

[@PS-nm8wk]

Hm. Is this more important for tall climbers? My external rotation is terrible but I haven't noticed it holding me back much, but I'm rather short. I just can't imagine me climbing that much better just from the hip rotation. Certainly not from a better side split, when would I ever use that?

[@yuli9691]

I was hoping this would be a piece of advice that would help me before any training kicks in, but I am hypermobile so... I guess I will go back to strength training!

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

I just released two episodes on strength training - one with Dr Tyler Nelson (finger strength) and one with Dr Natasha Barnes (weight training). They’re over on the podcast. Hope they help!

[@josefzboril9095]

I do flexibility all body every day morning for 45 min, specialy exercise for better recovery of my hands and it is good to prevent injuries

[@fredericp64]

Very true! Thx for sharing!

[@pascaljutras178]

My hips external mobility is crazy good, sometime it is really a game changer, in best conditions it gives a chance to use your feet at the max to push your hips against the wall, reducing a lot need to pull with hands, sometime you can stick on wall with no hands when it would be simply impossible without that mobility. (When facing the wall in frog position, if hips are in full contact with the wall it gives full potential to apply good torque with feet on certain type of holds)

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

Goalz

[@V8chump]

5:40 holy hell I’m NOWHERE NEAR that flexible and have climbed indoor v10 outdoor v9!

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

V12 on deck!

[@Glenners]

I love the video component of podcasts, do patreon supporters get access to the podcast with the video? I just joined your patreon anyways for the extended interviews and to show my support!

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

Thanks for the support and welcome to the fam! Means a lot to me. Right now I haven’t released the full videos, mainly because I’m a perfectionist and I edit the podcasts for time, flubs, pacing, etc. So im using clips for the YT channel but haven’t put much thought into longer videos or full uncut. Tho you’ve given me some things to consider down the road! Hope your training and climbing are going awesome, and thanks again for supporting the show 💚

[@Glenners]

@@thestruggleclimbingshow definitely consider it! Much love

[@questionableabsanity]

To quote some chap called David "Stay Flexy!"

[@stefanofalero]

i mean hey, i have this compression boulder proj that can be done with lower strength betas involving a crappy toe hook on a 7mm edge or alternatively a secure above-the-hand heel hook. id be stoked to top out with any method, but id be more stoked if were to train mobility and send with the latter beta. decent flexibility already but my hip muscles don’t let me use my full range on the wall

[@dawnriddler]

Only if you're tall, otherwise it won't help you much. As a short person even in a full middle split I can't reach most holds. And even if you manage to reach something due to flexibility, you still have to have a lot of strength to be able to lift yourself up from that position, flexibility alone is useless.

[@ttgeralt8189]

Very interesting. My hip mobility and lower body flexibility are below average. I started stretching every day for 20-30 minutes focusing on the mentioned areas. How soon can I expect to get such benefits? 6 months? year? 2 years?

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

I’ve been at it for a few months and see the difference on the wall. I think a key thing is to take it TO the wall (eg, apply those stretches to better technique, so the gains aren’t just on the mat but they’re being actively used often on the wall). I’ve been adding high heel hooks and open / frog resting during my warmup climbs to help connect the dots.

[@user-sc9ud8wh3t]

To me personally passive flexibility training everyday didnt do anything (i barely made good process after a certain point and couldnt really apply it anyway). Some pretty simple mobility and strength through motion blew me away. I managed to get rid of the knee pain from climbing completely, gained a lot of flexibility, started noticing it on a wall. (Something simple like Tom Merrick's weighted routine 2x a week for side splits, KneesOverToes guy stuff and high feet drills for front splits)

[@questionableabsanity]

Depends how old you are and how many injuries you have. I've spent 3 years getting to "normal" mobility and now that most of the chronic injuries are much less noticeable I've started, what I assume to be another 3 year journey into the "extreme!" I'm 47 and spent a lot of years driving and hanging in a harness with a rounded back. Clue is in the name!

[@questionableabsanity]

@@user-sc9ud8wh3tAgreed! Also you need to leave the ego at the door and be honest with yourself about where you really are.

[@languagefreeassangeteacher5338]

Thanks, that´s helpful!

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

Glad to hear that!

[@ailistorenyoga7312]

I am curious to know if lattice has studied climbers with hypermobility?

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

I’ll ask Tom!

[@aviduke]

its ashame i trashed my hips with xfit

[@matthiasweber452]

Well, there are some really strong climbers who don't seem to be very flexible. Chris Sharma or Stefano Ghisolfi for example. How do you explain this? Is it really that important, if you can climb 9b and harder without it?

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

Stefano seems pretty flexible, not sure on Sharma. But I think Tom’s point is more about the average climber, there’s quite a bit of low hanging fruit for us in the area of mobility. Once you get to the top echelon, there’s much smaller room to make big gains in any area, it becomes a game of fractions.

[@taliapage6259]

Isn’t frog just a box split with the knees bent? I have both at 180 degrees or greater so I may be missing something. But the moment where you say box splits just aren’t as useful as frog was surprising because to me they are the same stretch in a different leg shape

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

Good question. I think with frog the toes are turned out, whereas Box the toes are pointing forward. If the idea is to get the pelvis as close to the wall as possible in order to reduce load on the fingers, Frog seems more reflective of that. I think. But I do both stretches - box split and frog. And also pancake with weight. Aiden Roberts and Ollie did a Lattice video on this that has great visuals and descriptions. Hope your climbing is going great!

[@taliapage6259]

@@thestruggleclimbingshow in box splits the toes point in the same direction as the head. So if you are doing frog where you are laying forward and imagine your frog is completely flat, you would then straighten the legs and the toes would also be pointing in the direction of the head. So in both you have the inner thighs to the ground. I’m pretty sure it’s the same position. If you do box splits with the upper body upright then the toes/tops of feet should also point up to the ceiling (same direction as the head). So to me they seem like exactly the same thing, just with frog not involving the lower legs

[@Aaron-xq6hv]

Unfortunately for some of us, it's not our flexibility holding us back (many many years of ballet have taken care of that.).

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

Envious 😅

[@Aaron-xq6hv]

@@thestruggleclimbingshow To be fair, I'm still tall so things like sit starts are all V10 for me.

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

@@Aaron-xq6hv just heel hook above your head like Margo 😆

[@Aaron-xq6hv]

@@thestruggleclimbingshow The difference is I have to do that on a 5.12 instead of a 5.15 cause I'm too weak to do the intended beta 😅

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

@@Aaron-xq6hv sound pretty dang strong to me!

[@larryjonn1973]

Honest tip, ive found that the best way to get better at climbing quicker is to utilize all of your body, for instance, dont forget thay you can bring some clamps to attach to your nipples to hang from, oh and dont forget chalk

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

😂

[@matejnovosad9152]

I am naturally extremely flexible in my hips and i can di the frog thing without any dedicated training other than climbing

[@UNLIMITED_WMSEEDS]

Flexibility is so important, but my discipline sucks so im just gonna stay insanely un-flexible and climb v6s lol.

[@hetistijmen]

That picture of Pete, what the hell. That's someone else's leg and his reaction to the smell of their foot, right?
For a serious response: I've found ankle mobility to be something people undervalue. My feet are stronger than my shoes on razor edges and crystals, but on flat volumes I cannot drop my hips for the life of me. I often end up externally rotating my legs to get more contact patch but it makes my more flexible friends (who roll their ankles - I pretty much can't) cringe and look away.
Ok another edit: is this video not just a way of saying "work your weaknesses"? 3 grades seems like the upper end of what I'd expect if someone made a project of their biggest weakness while maintaining the rest of their stuff.

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

I appreciate the thoughtful perspective here. Ankle mobility is a great one to add to the list, and I’ve heard Tom talk about that in particular, with regard to crack climbing, but certainly applies to volumes as well. As far as working weaknesses, I agree, tho I think Tom’s point here is that we can push our upper limit(even our strengths) up significantly by working hip mobility.

[@hetistijmen]

@@thestruggleclimbingshow Oh yeah definitely, flexibility/mobility lets you use the strength or technique that you have on different positions and holds. It's more of a multiplier than an addition I guess. Case in point: I currently have badly shortened hamstrings on the right side and despite my legs being similar in strength again, my right foot just cannot do the moves my left can. Depending on the boulder this sets me back between 0 and 3 full number grades. This is most obvious on mirrored training boards.
The same goes for some other things though: IME lots of holds at higher grades have a pretty strict 'minimum amount of finger strength' that a given climber needs to do a move. For me though, my fingers get stronger just by climbing so there's no need to train them. My flexibility doesn't, so I need to purposefully train it so it doesn't get left behind. I guess the exact opposite would be someone who's naturally flexible, but doesn't gain strength as easily. They'd benefit much more from strength training than they would from stretching. They can get their hands or feet on the holds they need, but can't generate the force needed to utilise them.
The other point of the triangle would be to improve your technique but telling people they just need to climb better to do a problem is sometimes hard to do tactfully.

[@ryandevlin5555]

@@hetistijmen really thoughtful perspectives here!

[@Nuadin]

External flexibility of hips... oh... where i have the least flexibility. Okay lol. Bright side there's a lot of room for improvement.
My friend who started climbing when i did had naturally flexible external flexibility and just nailed higher climbs. There's been some climbs where I really struggle with a high foot.

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

Yeah me too. But I like the perspective - loads of room for gains!

[@Meta-Drew]

Tom should've downgraded everything instead of saying he went up 3 grades
See how many hearts he breaks XD

[@thestruggleclimbingshow]

😂

[@socie01]

Just climb harder LUL

[@maxdilcon5679]

As someone who only climbs 40 degrees and below i believe this is hogwash