Joseph Smith: The book of Abraham, Kinderhook plates & other frauds - Episode 17
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- The Book of Abraham is a work produced between 1835 and 1842 by Joseph Smith based, he said, on Egyptian papyri purchased from a traveling mummy exhibition. According to Smith, the book was "a translation of some ancient records purporting to be the writings of Abraham, while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus". Smith said the papyri described Abraham's early life, his travels to Canaan and Egypt, and his vision of the cosmos and its creation.
The work was canonized in 1880, by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) as part of its Pearl of Great Price. It thus forms a doctrinal foundation for the LDS Church and Mormon fundamentalist denominations of the Latter Day Saint movement. It is not considered a sacred text by the Community of Christ. Other groups in the Latter Day Saint movement have differing opinions regarding the Book of Abraham, some rejecting and some accepting the text as divinely inspired scripture. The book contains several doctrines that are unique to Mormonism such as the idea that God organized eternal elements to create the universe (instead of creating it ex nihilo), the potential exaltation of humanity, a pre-mortal existence, the first and second estates, and the plurality of gods.
The Book of Abraham papyri were thought to have been lost in the 1871 Great Chicago Fire. However, in 1966 several fragments of the papyri were found in the archives of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York and in the LDS Church archives. They are now referred to as the Joseph Smith Papyri. Upon examination by professional Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists, these fragments were identified as Egyptian funerary texts, including the "Breathing Permit of Hôr"[nb 1] and the "Book of the Dead", among others. As a result, the Book of Abraham has been the source of significant controversy. Although some Mormon apologists defend its authenticity, no other scholars regard it as an ancient text.
The Kinderhook plates were a set of six small, bell-shaped pieces of brass with strange engravings created as a hoax in 1843, surreptitiously buried and then dug up at an Indian mound near Kinderhook, Illinois.
The plates were forged by three men from Kinderhook as a prank on the local Latter Day Saint community. According to Latter Day Saint belief, the Book of Mormon is a record of the ancient Judeo-Semitic inhabitants of the Americas, originally translated by the founder of the movement, Joseph Smith, from golden plates engraved in the language of reformed Egyptian. Latter Day Saint residents of Kinderhook sent the plates to Smith in Nauvoo for translation, where Smith said they were of ancient origin and translated a portion of them.
In 1980, scientific testing confirmed the hoax, and that the plates were a modern creation. Within the Latter Day Saint movement, Smith's translation was never accepted in the canon of scripture, but was generally considered authentic. Latter Day Saints currently consider Smith's translation be speculative, and not inspired.
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Back in 2014, I was a missionary. One day I was reading the Book of Abraham, and read "written by his own hand, upon papyrus", and I asked myself the fatal question: "Where did the Book of Abraham come from?" That was the beginning of the end. I looked it up at the apartment computers and realized it was all a fraud right then and there.
Wow! I was never a mormon, but from what I've learned following various ex-mormons online, the most hard-core indoctrination period for a young mormon takes place during their mission: being away from home and family for the first time (and if I remember correctly, not being allowed to even have any contact with family or friends for the first part of the mission?), often being in a completely new country where you know no-one and doesn't speak the native language, makes for the perfect setup for some serious indoctrination. So the fact that you ran into truth and out of belief during that period - again: Wow! That must have been a rough experience for you! And at the same time, I'm thinking that perhaps it "_had_" to be under those conditions to make the imprint it did... What do I know? I'm just guessing - trying to put myself in an unknown persons shoes: as that person - i.e. you. Anyway, I'm really glad for you and regardless of how it was for you then back in 2014, I really hope you've found new ground, greener grass and a solid stable that keeps you safe, warm, happy and among friends!
The Egyptologists were debunked in 2014.
@@richardholmes7199 Bahahahahahahahaha...hold on, let me catch my breath....BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!
@@baberoot1998 ?
This series has become my favorite hour of the week. Bryce and David are fucking rock stars.
I'm just loving this series.
I love the information in this series, but I am not a fanboy of Joe, Porter and Brigham like the members of the panel. I have known men like these; I do not admire them in any form or fashion. They caused to much death and destruction. Their end could not come soon enough. I am fascinated by history and this information is a riveting history lesson about America in the 1800's. Tells us how far we still have to go to meet the ideals espoused by the Founding Fathers.
It was difficult to listen to the praise of these bastards , but the history was well done.
If you ever wanted motives for doubting Mormonism you can't do much better than the Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook plates.
The Egyptologist jerks were debunked in 2014.
Although I left Mormonism for other reasons, it was reading about the real history of the B. of Abraham that closed the door on ever going back
There is no question that the Salt Lake City Spin Doctors won't be able to answer
@richardholmes5676 evidently not😂
Well, psychopaths are sometimes very charming.
Why do I think of my last girlfriend as I read that? 😬
Totally, Ted Bundy......
Wow Porter Rockwell has earned a spot in my favorite all time anti-heros. He's right up there with Walter White from Breaking Bad and Tony Soprano. The only difference is somehow he's a real person! 😂😂😂
He is in the leage with Baron Roman Fyodorovich von Ungern-Sternberg.
I cant listen to this as I am 12 episodes behind.. but catching up fast... inadvertently this is shaping up to be "the greatest story ever told" .. it is the "great American Novel" come to life...
I've caught up now!
Love this podcast. Currently reading the Pre-Nicene New Testament and loving Dr. Price's work. Been a fan of Bryce Blankenangel for a long time. Exmormons Unite! - Joe Rawlins
YES, the BOA scam is a big one making many leave the church, but I suppose some stay for the fraternity, social benefits. Cradle mormon here, left in the left 80's......loving the series!
The Egyptologists were debunked in 2014.
@@richardholmes7199 no they weren't dummy quit telling yourself those same lies again and again. Egyptologists are proven far toooo true and right on this and smith once again a satanic fraud.
At last I understand why people lost their shit when Romney ran for President
"There are no heroes". This is correct. There are people who sometimes do heroic things, but they remain human, as fallible as we all are.
Regardless of how one looks at the Kinderhook plates scenario, Joseph Smith was either deceived, a deceiver, or both:
-If he believed the Kinderhook plates were real, he was deceived.
-If he believed the Kinderhook plates were a hoax and provided a partial translation of the plates, he was a deceiver.
-If he didn’t know whether the Kinderhook plates were real or a hoax and provided a partial translation of the plates, he was a deceiver.
-If he didn’t provide a partial translation of the plates but allowed those around him to believe that he did, he was a deceiver.
-If he knew the translations for the Egyptian symbols in the GAEL were fake/made up and used them for his partial translation of the Kinderhook plates, he was a deceiver.
-If he believed the translations for the Egyptian symbols in the GAEL were accurate translations, he was deceived.
-If he was deceived, so much for his claims to divine inspiration, having the spirit of discernment, and speaking for God. Also, he should not be trusted because he claimed he knew what he was speaking about, when in reality, he was presenting falsities as truth.
-If he was a deceiver, he cannot be trusted.
28:47 I hiked across Kyushu once, and this is very relatable. I walked 300 miles in 10 days, and by day 3, my feet were _absolutely_ shredded. I'm talkin deep blisters on my soles, my heels, and the tops and bottoms of my toes... even _between_ my toes! It was agonizing hell. Every step was a squishy, painful one.
I actually had to stop for a day to let my feet rest- that's how bad they were! So I can relate to Rockwell taking a few days off.
Honestly I'm surprised that my feet made a full recovery. I couldn't see how my feet would be able to come back from such extensive injuries. But they did, somehow!
Damn this is a great episode.
I watched an LDS apologist video on this and the excuses he provided. The worst part was reading the comments and how they dont question it at all. They bought everything he said and their response was God can do anything.
It requires pretzel thinking to listen to apologists
How is this not a Netflix series……..
Fun stuff! Really fun stuff.. Thanks for the series
Belatedly this is the first I've seen of this series. Great stuff. Will track down other episodes. Thanks.
Just stumbled on this series; I first got onto Mythvision looking for Richard Carrier material and this weekend discovered this! Mormonism holds a fascination for me, I read Fitzgerald's book some years ago and knew about him but not Naked Mormonism, which I'm onto now. This is such an excellent series. But I have my doubts about it becoming a TV series, at least in an undiluted form. The Mormon leadership is too powerful as an accepted part of the American ruling class. Not the heaviest of hitters but they have significant clout, especially in the west.
You guys are so awesome! Right there with you Derek, I do the same thing, rooting for the villian, heehee
just because joseph and his myth pissed on God doesn’t make Christ a myth or false. Christ is our savior, he’s coming back, but only for believers
Porter Rockwell was a terrible human being. But I don’t think any prisoner should be underfed.
I feel very sorry for the men escorting him along backroads for 3 days - twice.
Great show, Guys! More, more, more!! ❤️ Recovering Mormon
You Three Are A Perfect Trio! 😁
👏👏👏👏
Another great episode. I think David had at least 2 pots of coffee before taping. 😁
Hi guys, just found this treasure trove of pure enlightenment. Me and the Holy Ghost are power watching these vids but she keeps breaking into hysterical laughter. Its kind of distracting but will endure!
so very revealing that people believe what they want to believe. my family in st. george have departed reality.
Well, it's a story about Joseph Smith, so of course you want him to live. We can't help it.
Check out Mormon Murders on Netflix. The LDS church got taken for another ride in the 1980’s by a forger and conman.
Love this series.
Someone should start a trend of calling William Lane Craig, Sean McDowell, Mike Licona and other Christian apologists who got advanced degrees IN ORDER TO BE APOLOGISTS for stuff they already went in believing and came out still believing, "Hugh Nibleys"
37:47 starts the actual conversation about book of Abraham
great episode! so entertaining. Joseph smith was a precursor to Trump. They are the same personality.
Lol…..uh no
Culty leaders don't much care if their followers are religious or political and their playbooks are the same. They are predictable because of this
Definitely! That con artist sexual predator personality flourishes here in Utah.
In the tv miniseries about Rockwell, he should be played by Jack Black.
If Jos Smith lived too long, Brigham Young would have taken him out.
I read Nibley's message of the joseph Smith papyri, and written by the finger of god,
Similarities between Smith and Trump are uncanny.
Josephs mother translate the papyrus. She came from a family of academians. That cursed Williard Richards approached JSmith when he was very distracted about putting it in the paper.
You can't help but root for Barnabas on original "Dark Shadows"
Um hmm always knew only Rockwell Ive been exposed to is Normon Rockwell a descendant but look at the love in Normon' s pictures
Im not making for or against momént just going uh huh
Definitely the funniest episode so far.
What is the name of the biography of Porter Rockwell that Bryce mentioned?
Also isn't it weird that modern Mormons won't even consume coffee or tea but these guys are drinking alcohol all the time?
It would have been interesting to hear Joseph Smith use his folksy words in a New York or New England accent.
Because, of course, gold does not rust.
my sister was with hugh nibley in egypt doing a documentary for the church early 80’s. she was unwilling to give me any details, poor confused believer.
Fun coincidence I'm viewing this on april 1st...
I would love to flesh all this out into a script for a mini-series but $$$ to live on in the meantime-LOl...ah well.
You failed to mention that in addition to talking like a hick, Joseph spoke with a thick non-rhotic New England accent. He may have sounded like a cross between Ted Kennedy and the Beverly Hillbillies
Can you do a series on Luther and the Reformation?
Ha- I took classes with Nibley
Kinderhook Plates will be translated by future Prophet by the power of God
Where is episode 16?
ua-cam.com/video/ulhaM69S6Mo/v-deo.html
In one of the facsimiles that is part of the Book of Abraham, Joseph said that a figure was God sitting on his throne discussing the priesthood. Egyptologists say that actually the figure is the Egyptian Sex God, Minh, with an erection. Do you think maybe the truth is that God got excited when he spoke of the priesthood?
No you think it's possible you don't know what you're talking about and you're mixing things together no Smith this is the early years of Smith Smith is making stuff up or do you like it or not he says the other area it's Abraham when in fact it's a regular body of a pharaoh in the Tomb for the afterlife
So Porter Rockwell is kinda the Luca Brasi in this flick
I'm not gona watch tonight, but mr fitzgerald and mr bryce whatever the fuck his last name is, have my utmost admoration
this is sad.....reminds me of what Nazis did to Jews.
OMG. If you could hear how many times I say that out loud while watching. (And as an ex jw , for whom saying "OMG" is blasphemous, that's saying something!!!)
Good Lord guys you’re worse than women get to the actual book of Abraham here. It’s about 20 minutes in.
immigration history of the great cult
The Egyptologists were debunked in 2014. When are you going to have the human decency to admit to this?
Citation needed
Islam The Beautiful Religion
( Be Just )
Quran 5:8
'' O you who believe! stand out firmly for God, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the > HATRED OF OTHERS TO YOU < make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear God. For God is well-acquainted with all that ye do. ''
Quran 4:58
'' Indeed, God commands you to render trusts to whom they are due and when you judge between people to judge with justice. Excellent is that which God instructs you. Indeed, God is ever Hearing and Seeing.''
( God's The Rules Of War )
Quran 2:190
'' Fight in the way of God > THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU < but do not transgress. Indeed. God does not like transgressors. ''
Quran 2 :193
'' And fight them on until there is no more oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. ''
Quran 4:90
''.........So if they withdraw from you and cease their hostility and offer you peace, in that case Allah has not granted you permission to fight against them.''
Quran 8:61
''And if they seek peace, then you also seek it, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.''
( Stand Up For Justice )
Quran 4 :135
'' Ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against > YOURSELVES < or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.''
( Who Are The Good Human Beings? )
Quran 2.177
'' Righteousness is "NOT" that you turn your faces ( in worship ) toward the east or the west but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in God, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth,> IN SPITE OF LOVE FOR IT,< to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for > freeing slaves < [and who] establishes prayer and gives charity; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous. ''
( Freedom To Believe And To Reject )
Quran 2:256
'' Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error ''
Quran 10:99
'' And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed > all of them entirely < Then would you compel the people in order that they become believers? ''
( Tolerance For Other Religions )
Quran 109: 1- 6
Say,"O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshipers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshiper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshipers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
( Protection for Idol Worshiper )
Quran 9:6
"And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are people who do not know. "
Quran16:125
“Call people to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good teaching, and argue with them in the most courteous way”
Quran7:199 “Be tolerant....”
( Friendship With Non Muslims )
Quran 60:8
'' God does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, God loves those who act justly. ''
( Do Christians And Jews and "OTHER" non-Muslims go to Heaven? )
Quran 2:62
'' Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,-> ANY { On Judgement Day }
( According to the Quran Christians and Jews worship TRUE God )
(Quran 3:113-114)
'' Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book ( Christians and Jews ) are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.''
Note: According to the Quran that Jesus is not God nevertheless Christians still worship one '' TRUE '' God.
( > Allah < Is The Protector Of Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues And The Mosques )
Quran 22:40
[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.
( Why Are There So Many Different Religions In The World ? )
Quran 5 48
''...... If God wanted He could have made all of you a > single nation < But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you;(scriptures) therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to God; then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you > DISPUTE submission < to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (Salvation)''
My explanation of above verse
Islam mean > submission < to God
( The above verse saying is that God will not accept a religion from the > MUSLIM < and the Non-Muslims but total > submission < to God.)
Question: How Can Muslim And the > Non-Muslim < > submit < to the God?
Answer: Be kind to other human beings and Do not lie, Do not steal, Do not cheat, Do not hurt others, Do not be prideful and Do the charity work.
( God Allow Muslims To Marry And Eat Food From the Christian And Jew And Vice Versa )
Quran 5;5
''This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture ( Christian and Jew) is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture ( Christian and Jew) before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.''
( Kindness Toward Atheists / > APOSTATE < )
Quran 60:8
'' As for such [ of the unbelievers ( atheist) ] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, > Allah < does not forbid you to show them > kindness < and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, Allah loves those who act equitably. ''
( All The Terrorists / Killers Will Enter Hell Fire )
Quran 5:32
"......Whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely......"
( Turned Your Enemies Into Your Awesome Friends )
Quran 41:34
"The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend."
( The Husband and The Wife Are > Protecting Friends < One Of Another )
Quran 9:71
''And the believers, men and women, are > Protecting Friends < one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey God and His messenger. As for these, God will have mercy on them. Lo! God is Mighty, Wise.''
Quran16:97
“To whoever, male or female, does good deeds and has faith, We shall give a good life and reward them according to the best of their actions.
Quran 30:21
“And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you > affection and mercy { Love }
The Prophet Muhammad said, “The best among you is the best to his wife”
( Human Are One Big family )
Quran 49:13
" O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."
( All The Racist People Will Enter Hellfire )
Quran 30:22
"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge."
My conclusion:
The > BASIC < message of God to the human is that '' YOU '' believe in God and be kind to other human beings / > animals < and in the > RETURNED < God will > REWARD < you with a new life in Paradise.
* The Quran ONLY guides you how to become a good human being "Nothing Else".
* You are a good human being or a bad human being that is YOUR choice.
* No one can force you to become a good human being.
* You MUST work HARD to become a good human being.
* Why should ''YOU'' do good deeds and avoid bad deeds?
* Do Good - it's for You. Do Bad - It's against you.
* '' YOUR'' life is a TEST from God that you will choose to do either Good or Bad.
* Find the excuse to help others and forgive others NOT the other way around.
* '' YOUR '' final destination is either Hell or Heaven.
* So work HARD toward choice of YOUR destination.
Quran 17:7
'' If you do good, you will do so for your own good. And if you do evil, it will be to your own loss.''/.
Is that the whole book? Jesus H Christ!
This is evidence that Jehovah's witnesses and muslims have a lot in common... Wall of text syndrome!
There’s only one TINY little problem with what you wrote above, Sir.☝️
There has never been, nor will there ever be, even the SLIGHTEST shred of evidence for the existence of the Godhead, that is, a Supreme Person or Deity.🤓
It is high time for humanity to awaken from all INANE superstitions such as the belief in a Personal God which created the Universe, would you not agree, Slave? 😩
P. S. When I typed “There’s only one TINY little problem with what you wrote above”, I was obviously being sarcastic, since, objectively speaking, your inane drivel was fully inebriated with a plethora of nonsensical assertions and unverifiable concepts, Silly Slave. 🙄☝🏼🙄
@@TheWorldTeacher Genius
@@Syed_12, I am patiently awaiting your response to my question, SLAVE. ☝🏼