My issue with techlore is the misleading part about grapheneOS specially in the toxic part techlore community has been known as toxic as well to other content creators. And this drama happened because of misinfo
@@007Strings007 He's not been scared off, he was disrespected by the creator who seem's to be suffering from paranoid delusions and decided to say fuck it and stop supporting the creator.
You say that as a joke, but I think it's very likely that there's a much higher percentage of people with anxiety issues or schizoid personality disorders in these kinds of privacy communities than in the general population, just due to motivation. And they're already more common in the general population than you'd think. Also this is someone who already openly has a mental health condition, and they rarely come alone. Being smart sadly doesn't really help against these kinds of issues. If anything it makes them worse because you're better at rationalizing things. Really breaks my heart, the foss community is already way too small and fragile without unnecessary drama.
@@mikeuk1927 that's really not true, when he was on his meds? Yea, but if you ever became suspect to his schizo delusions he'd call you and fbi/cia nword, for the last few years of his life helping him was a landmine.
I don't know if it's the ego about the project they've created or something else but I've seen a lot of communities and creators act pretty terrible at genuine criticism from outsiders. What's even worse is some FOSS communities that try to silence/control others that disagree with them which is the exact thing that influenced me (and many others) to avoid proprietary platforms in the first place. We need to be better than this.
I do wonder if this is a general human trait. To be overprotective of something you identify with. Tribalism if you will. No matter if that is gnome, Apple, arch, Linux in general, sports teams... As soon as you have a group of people you have people within those groups who defend it to their death no matter what the "attack" is, even if that is valid criticism
Id like to see distributed governance maintained by organizations that have completely transparent finances and well defined systems for ensuring community representation. hope to start A nonprofit online game publishing company with these things in mind one day.
many foss projects grow to a point that they think it’s a good idea to have sjw type people getting involved. the red flag is a “code of conduct” that imposes behavioral policing on anybody. mist projects are not immune to bs like this and succumb to the doctrine. this is a rabbit hole i recommend to dive into.
Hey Everyone, as mentioned in the video - Daniel Micay, the lead developer of GrapheneOS has threatened to contact UA-cam and attempt to take down our content. I encourage everyone to watch our Graphene content and come to your own conclusion. If this video is falsely removed, we post our content to Odyssee and PeerTube as well. Correction: Nick is the Executive Director, not the owner, of the Calyx Institute. Calyx is a nonprofit so they don't have owners.
@R L I agree, getting it removed would be censorship. However, Techlore has completely lost the plot here. He gives the advice of looking inwards and doing some self-reflection, maybe he should apply this himself. Clearly he could not handle criticism (Ironical given the content of the video). When a person voice they have a mental health issue, you do not go out and make a video, which may very well contribute to a worsening of such, no matter how triggered you may be. Techlore’s bias and very little investigative application are not doing him any favours, just make him look like a little triggered baby applying the dunning-kruger effect tbh. Also I am not in the GrapheneOS community, just want ensure nobody think such.
@@newname8988 People should not use "mental health issues" as an excuse to be a shitty person. Lots of us have mental health issues, including depression, but we aren't assholes to people then cry "DEPRESSION" when challenged on our behaviour, expecting it to be and using it as some sort of magic "get out of jail free" card to enable us to be toxic without consequence.
@Biology Discussions Eh, Gamergate was generally smeared as toxic first, because it was a response to games "journalists" being shady af, coordinated so they all pushed the same thing, and took kickbacks from game publishers for good reviews. They really had no ethics...still don't really. Who's in a better position to smear you than a "journalist"? But that was many, many years ago now. I have no idea what the holders-on are like.
@@liesdamnlies3372 to be fair, the anti sjw antifeminist tendencies were there from the start and took completely over to the point where people actually interested in ethics in games journalism distanced themselves. Many of the leading gamergaters of the time are now "journalists" themselves with little to no ethics when it comes to accuracy.
@@terrydaktyllus1320 Yes Terry, high school just like you're in rn with your pals or jr high. Lol got caught and burnt accordingly. It's all drama and you guys make it all up. Lol lol
This video has 80k views as of 26 May 2023. Now that it's been mentioned on a different channel focusing on right to repair and highlighting the toxicity they personally experienced, I'm curious to see how many more views this video gets now. I wonder if this will have a bit of a Streisand effect.
This is exactly the reason I tend to stay astray of extreme privacy communities. Unless you agree with everything in their narrative, you are being attacked and bullied.
Apple and Google are watching this video -- popcorn in hand, laughing their asses off. UBPorts is listening from the apartment next door with a glass to the wall, dreaming about being able to afford popcorn and Epstein didn't kill himeslf.
So I tried Calyx and Graphene OS Matrix channel and I didn't see any of the drama that is spoken for here. I did noticed that Nick from Calyx OS took sides with other user ( for several days ) this person had gotten upset that I was helping someone, then started to attack my person for no reason at all and next thing I knew Nick Calyx had banned me from the Matrix Channel. Since then I close my account with the Calyx Institute and I am moving to Graphene OS that by the way have in my opinion been more professional for what I can tell. PS Still not banned in graphene for helping others even if opinion are not the same.
Wow, Daniel is starting fight after fight and actively trying to make enemies with everybody who crosses his path, even the people genuinely trying to support his project. Then he writes walls of text trying to justify his aggressive behaviour. That is is so unhealthy and such a waste of time. Dude, just stop with the drama and focus on your programming, you seem to have a real talent in programming, don't waste your time on picking fights and creating drama. And as so many people have said before: There are many ways to seek mental help, many of them are even free of charge - use them.
For the sake of progress on GrapheneOS, you'd only stand to gain by growing some thicker skin. I know first-hand and second-hand that GrapheneOS saves people lives and livelihoods. The critique of "highschool drama" is so, so unimportant, and only serves to take away from Micay's work. Who gives a flying fcku abt how the man behaves? It's my belief that such a project couldn't be led so soundly by anyone but a genius workaholic crank like Daniel Micay. He's a true technical lead. I personally love the guy. As a fellow developer Linux/AOSP dev, I would work under him in a heartbeat, and we would get along perfectly. There is a reason that GrapheneOS is by far the most secure operating system on planet Earth for any computing device despite being massively out-gunned by Google and Apple. Finally, you must acknowledge that you are in no position to critique DM's efficiency (unless ur a GOS contributor). DM is one of the most efficient devs I've ever seen. Who gives a fcku if his work is fueled by testosterone? Please, contribute on GOS before making such a silly remark.
I was vaguely aware of this drama when I decided to install Graphene, which I've been using for months. Looks like it escalated seriously. I think that sadly the guy is mentally not well and while I think he really was wronged in the beginning, his reaction is just shooting himself in the foot in terms of reputation.
Micay finally shot the boat while trying to make everybody dance with a figurative gun. Hopefully the next leadership will patch the hole and Graphene can become a powerful objective vessel in the privacy/security fleet, instead of a rough script of Silicon Valley.
I find it funny that I never actually heard about Techlore before Daniel freaked out on Louis. I tried Graphine because of louis. I dropped Graphine because of the unhinged fool who freaked out on Louis.
@@epajarjestys9981 lol aww did i hurt your feelings boot licker. i made an informed decision based on the facts presented. A traumatic child in charge of an open source project with access to its coding is not safe and secure in my opinion. I will not support a developer who attacks random comments and slanders others without evidence. Then tries to use a disability as a shield for shitty behavior. You want to sheeple behind that? go ahead and lick that boot.
There are a lot of comparisons available. Signal has no recent audit and only works with a phone number. The laws of the USA are giving the gov access to everything. Threema has several audits every year and does not need a phone number. Also it is in Switzerland - a country with strict privacy laws.
I'd say the most likely reason Daniel and James BOTH don't want to give up the company is probably money. It seems likely that Copperhead ("the Company") has some amount of operating funds in the Company's Assets Under Management; whether that's bitcoin, or cash, or something else is anyone's guess. Whoever owns the Company, can do what they want with those assets. So, for example, if James gives up and sells his half of the Company, then Daniel legally owns all of the assets. The same is true in reverse if Daniel gives up instead. So neither of them want to give it up, because there's money locked inside; and whoever doesn't give up gets the money. Now, whether they want the money for themselves, or to use to pay developers, is anyone's guess. MY guess is that they both just want it for themselves.
I came looking for this video because I was researching which ROM to install on my phone and came across Louis Rossmann's recent video about his disagreement with Micay and why he's ditching GrapheneOS. I eventually decided on CalyxOS because the installer was super simple, they've gotten some grant money and their leader isn't trying to burn the place to the ground.
8:25 - “What’s in it for him”….well, if CopperheadOS owns the code and if Micay reused some of that code in GrapheneOS then Micay would need to gain 100% ownership of Copperhead to prevent its CEO (Donaldson) from suing him for stealing its code.
Oh Henry, as a GrapheneOS user I watched this video, and man you made me really angry from Micay... I mean I knew he's somehow special but I was like, meh I'm here for the OS. After watching this video I'm really sad how Micay is really hurting and destroying the great product that he made. and I start questioning my decision of sticking with GrapheneOS. I mean I really love grapheneOS but man he's toxic, well to be honest. not only him (The community is also really toxic, you only had to ask one to know lol). Thanks for the Video man.
I found this out within a day of joining the community to ask for help. Sucks that GrapheneOS is good because I'd love to never deal with any of those people ever again.
I am ditching Graphene, myself. This is for multiple reasons. One being the toxicity discussed in this video. The other being that they actually recommend using certain services over certain other services. Even though the services they recommend are sandboxed. It's true that this limits the information available to the services. What's also true is that it still fingerprints your device.
Stay away from any extreme community. If open discourse, asking questions of the status quo, etc. is socially disallowed or discouraged, it's a good tip off to the toxicity level. It can be taxing. Agreeing with them will give you reward chemicals and social validation, but I assure you there are other methods of receiving this.
if the project has a code of conduct, take what’s good and run. graphene coc: “This Code of Conduct is adapted from the Chromium Code of Conduct, based on the Geek Feminism Code of Conduct, the Django Code of Conduct, and the Geek Feminism Wiki "Effective codes of conduct" guide.” it’s a cult.
@@britneyfreek A code of conduct is somewhat necessary for any big foss project, though. Hell, a coc is important for any big software project, imo, even proprietary ones within companies. If you have ever worked on a large software project, then you know how hard it is to manage without standards, and with foss projects, you are literally managing complete strangers who don't have their job on the line Now what the coc says might be problematic or outright authoritarian, which is horrible, but a coc can also be good. It depends on the content
@@CoreDump451 No, it isn't needed at all. The ONLY purpose of a CoC is to push goals outside of the project. It ALWAYS reduces the quality of the code. What you want is a standard for quality code, NOT a code of conduct. Further, there are large groups of people who are extremely toxic who will not participate in a project UNTILL there is a code of conduct because until it is written down, they don't know how to get around it.
@@SirSpence99 exactly. and those people rarely contribute any code of significance to a project. only stirring up drama and claiming somebody looked wrong.
I'm at 16:55 What you show is Daniel making all these claims against CalyxOS employees but not giving even one single specific example. In this video Daniel didn't even quote one thing a CalyxOS employee said against GraphineOS, but instead made vague claims that they said things.
To be fair, microG isn't a secure way to interface with Google's services. The way GOS started with the unprivileged sandbox just a few days ago is the preferred way technically to go forward. It takes advantage of Android 12's new framework to support third-party app stores. GOS favors security above all other concerns, so things like app launching speed registers very low on the priority list. Same goes for app compat. It's one of the reasons I dropped GOS for a while (it couldn't run my banking app, but even the new compat technique likely won't help, either due to the way those types of apps handle attestation). I just went back to stock Android. CalyxOS was too much of a compromise that it felt "lukewarm" to me. Either commit to security or don't. Otherwise, you're just setting up false expectations for yourself.
I get some of your points but security isn't everything and absolute. It isn't either secure or not secure like black and white or all or nothing. Absence of Google and tracking may be enough for most/ordinary people. Phones with microG aren't being hacked like crazy.
You need to treat Daniel Micay as a mentally ill person, and ignore his behavior, instead helping to make GrapheneOS if possible, or making an analog without Daniel Micay if it is impossible to work with him. We need the existence of GrapheneOS or its counterpart. I study the history of the USSR and its ideological founders, it's also very complicated in terms of interpersonal relations and there were and are extremely difficult situations. But all this requires overcoming, otherwise humanity will either perish or become cattle.
The fact that you made this in a way that I find honest and well-intentioned, then get accused of such wild accusations by the lead developer of the project, is pretty alarming. I was considering leaving the apple ecosystem because I thought Graphene was a really cool and compelling project, but seeing how strcat is handling these situations does not make me feel comfortable or confident in the overall integrity of the project. To accuse someone of holding views that are anti-autism because you call out the behavior of someone who happens to have it is pretty sad, and really paints that entire community of people who know how to act professionally in a really poor light. Daniel really needs to walk back all these allegations, and realize that you were not attacking him. If anything, you were calling out the misconduct you observed the same way he claimed to be. Sure, doxxing or swatting someone is deplorable behavior. But I don't remember any instance where you or anyone else was inciting that behavior against Daniel. Pulling the victim card and being a cry bully doesn't help the project grow in scope or reputation.
Graphene is tremendous and it's feature set is incredibly compelling. I use it on my phone to this day. The community is absolutely horrible. I replied 'lol you're wrong' to a former maintainer in GrapheneOS' chat when he said Microsoft Pluton will make Windows the most secure OS and he spent 3 days tagging me in the room pretending he never said it even while never deleting the original message.
The greatest enemy of any revolution, is the short-sighted selfish interests of individuals. If the problem lies with it's leadership, then the project is doomed. One must only look to history, both recent and past, for examples. The sad truth is, when individuals within a well-meaning movement bicker, the only one who wins is the opposition, in this case, oppressive and closed source OS providers. My advice, as someone who has Managed app development, is to stay positive, and supportive of your programmers and project managers. Be openmined and listen to all reasonable suggestions. Have purity of vision, and keep project goals at the forefront. All this nonsense about undermining "competing products" will only destroy the validity and success of one's own project. Best of luck to all.
I just asked a simple question in the matrix room and one of the admins went on a spiel carrying on like a child. I want to use Graphene but I know that if I have a problem there's a chance it won't be fixed and I'll be attacked and insulted instead. That makes Graphene only as stable as it's administrators, and no I am not making any remarks about depression, it wasn't strcat that commented, he was helpful.
Funny, I asked a simple question and Strcat condescended to me then banned me when I pointed out that condescension. Afterwards he accused me of being a brigader, said that our messages were archived as further "evidence", and that he had spent "considerable time" trying to help me (It was literally less than 30 seconds), then demanded an apology for "what I did." I went from thinking that he was telling the truth to being unsure of his truthfulness, but knowing for a fact that he's a petulant, egotistical manchild in the course of fewer than five minutes. Edit: Forgot to mention that I didn't even know who he was until I looked it up after, and I didn't ask him specifically. This guy was definitely stuffed into a few lockers as a child.
@@stevemcqueen2922 He's the perfect example of why emotional intelligence is important. He's clearly intelligent and knows what he knows.. but unfortunately he just can't manage his emotions and clearly, illness. I asked the same question multiple times and they couldn't answer me so I was accused of "spreading fud". Oh yeah, I have since been banned by strcat losing his temper/mind.
as someone who just recently joined the Techlore community a year ago and who hasnt really been deeply involved in everything going on (i fairly recently started watching every video) i was very surprised when i saw the title of this video because, like you said in this video, ive only heard good things from Techlore about GrahineOS. Everyone always recommends it as the first option for a rom. just goes to show how the things Daniel is saying about Techlore dont make any sense
Techlore has censored many comments, all says the do no have the issues Techlore has. An example, anyone saying they don’t have limited app compatibility.with GrapheneOS are censored.
@@newname8988 i doubt that but i could be wrong since i dont have an android and dont talk about that stuff. the mods might have a problem with seemingly false information but that would never excuse them to censor without warning or justification. other peoples experiences may differ greatly. but since you didn’t provide proof i have no idea if what you’re saying is at all true since again i dont get involved in these conversations
@@Jzombi301 Several users have written comments saying they do not have app limitations with GrapheneOS, they got censored (that is comments are removed). Of course I cannot post ‘proof’ in a UA-cam comment section, but I know this is happening as I am getting the notifications for replies and when going to check the comment, are censored/removed. Saying GrapheneOS has limited app compatibility is misinformation and Techlore is actually the one spread misinformation with this one, likely due to bias and/or blind spots. If it’s a genuine blind spot(lack of technical capabilities) then he should simple state he cannot figure out out how to use GrapheneOS for daily use.
Wow. Crazy. I've been waiting for the phone I need to run this os to get cheaper to finally try it but seeing that No way Im interested in Graphene at all anymore. Micay seriously sound like my narcissist ex. He has serious mental health issues he could fix if he wanted. That'S too bad now The phone I was gonna get is finally cheap and I have no idea whatPrivate OS to get. What do you recommend ?
This guy from GrapheneOS seems to have some spectrum of Mental disorders (other than autism), i hope he can realize it and seek proper medical treatment, it is doing a disservice to the product reputation.
This dude need some serious IN PERSON help, there's no way keyboard help or slander will fix whatevers going on with Daniel. Thank you for bringing light to this Henry, fr don't listen to this hater
Jokes aside, it really makes sense that a person like that would be interested enough to go and create a ROM focused on privacy. If you want something for privacy, find a paranoid person who just _can't_ live comfortably like all the rest of us without a ROM that is sufficiently private. If you want a piece of software that satisfies your most sophisticated tastes and unique needs, go find the most demanding and pedantic person there is, he would probably already be developing the software right now because nothing else satisfies him amongst the existing alternatives. Extreme communities around software that is for those with extreme needs aren't necessarily bad or dangerous. It's just, when you look for a leader for such an extreme community, you have to keep in mind two things: 1. If the leader doesn't have enough issues to be truly interested in this extreme piece of software he's developing, he probably won't do the best job 2. Since the best leader you can find for the job is someone who's likely unstable, the best route for this would be to look both for the leader and for someone who can keep him in check (gently). Usually you don't get socially nice and warm people who are also of extreme views on software and are able to develop said software. You only get one of the two, and if you really want the extreme software, your only option is to LEARN HOW TO HANDLE THE UNSTABLE SPECIALISTS. That's just how it is. So, yeah, look for two people from the very start. And maybe set a separate budget for paying for the leader's therapy, there's nothing wrong with that and it actually helps even _before_ the crisis unfolds.
Thank you for daring to speak up against this abuse. I am very glad there is at least one video detailing this. Having been victim of his constant harassment has been quite awful and videos like these help defend myself against the constant harassment and trolling that I have personally experienced from Micay and others in the GrapheneOS project that has now been ongoing for almost a full years for simply pointing out one tiny detail he got wrong on Twitter once.
Last week I spent £600 and bought a Pixel 5 specifically to test both Graphene OS and Calyx OS. This was after seeing your video comparing both ROMs, which I thought was a completely fair and balanced video. I was looking to get away from using vanilla Android, as I want to try to, at least to some degree, de-google my phone usage. So the phone arrived, and before even using the stock rom I had wiped it and installed Graphene OS. Their webUSB installer is actually brilliant, and makes flashing your phone a complete breeze. The OS itself is fast and stable, as you'd expect with all the Google crap stripped out, and it was a pleasure to use. Unfortunately for me I found it unusable in a practical sense as a daily driver, as there were several key applications, such as mobile banking, that were unusable on Graphene. Graphene would be a fantastic OS for those that don't really use a wide variety of applications on their phone, and use it for basic phone, text & browsing. It's perfectly suited to that purpose and use-case. So, I wiped Graphene and installed CalyxOS. This was a bit trickier, but was still pretty easy to install using their linux installation script. Side note for Windows 10 users: Don't bother trying to run the CalyxOS installer, as Windows will immediately flag it as a virus and delete it. It's not a virus, it's just written in the GO language. That's something that's on the CalyxOS devs to re-write IMO in a more commonly used dev language. Anyhoo... Nick at CalyxOS should be grateful to you, and UA-camrs like you who recommend the likes of CalyxOS (and Graphene) for users to try out, because otherwise he wouldn't have another committed user in me. CalyxOS, while not as secure as GrapheneOS, is secure enough, private enough, and still lets me use common applications such as my aforementioned banking application without much issue. It, like Graphene, is fantastic. Fast, stable and the battery life (on both roms tbf) is amazing. However, as much as I like Graphene for what it is, and what it does, I will never ever personally recommend it to anyone ever again. I was completely unaware of the toxic behaviours of Micay or his dev(s), and cannot in good conscience, promote the work, no matter how good it is, of devs who partake in this type of toxic, gaslighting behaviour. Quite how Micay and his devs expect to grow their product, taking a toxic, scorched earth approach like this to fellow devs, people actively promoting their OS, and just regular random users, is baffling to me. Needless to say I'll never be installing Graphene ever again, and will wholeheartedly recommend CalyxOS (and to a lesser extent LineageOS) to others from now on.
Good on y'all for being honest with your reviews. I daily drive GrapheneOS, and I can see how the average user would have issues with it. I can live with no proprietary apps, no Google services, only offline maps, etc. But most people will want to use DoorDash, or Google Maps, or Twitter or w/e. I don't need it, but it's a valid concern for the average user.
Bringing up (or even threatening) self harm the instant one is called out for their bad behavior and being held to account is classic Gaslighting 101! That alone tells me all I need to know about someone and their character. Then again, of course, it's never alone as a witness against them. They are self-righteous narcissists through and through. I know plenty of people like that, unfortunately, and they are all so very exhausting and unpleasant to be around and to work with. They're impossible to work with, in fact! Everyone else is always to blame for their constant failures to be decent human beings, of course. Nothing is ever their fault. How could it be? They're the picture of perfection and can do no wrong, didn't you know?
I bought a pixel phone to use grapheneOS because of your videos. And shout out grapheneOS for the easy install via web for people like me😂 Hope this FOSS community gets more friendly because FOSS enemies are the bigger fish to fry.
How tf would you know if leadership reflects the project? Ur not even a dev, and you haven't contributed to GOS. It's one of the most impressive FOSS projects on the planet in many respects, and it's an awesome project with great management. Your thumbnail is preposterous.
I don’t understand why communities around software matter at all. If the software is, with solid docs/wikis, and it’s open source, who cares about the personalities of that the devs, users, etc?? Maybe I’m weird because I’m a techie whose social life doesn’t revolve around tech.
Because communities are the only place you can rely on for your questions and issues when you use free open-source software, unlike commercial products for which you can get corporate customer support. Solid docs/wikis don't answer your specific questions and don't solve your specific issues. You need to remind yourself of the reality that even very polished commercial products by Big Tech corporations have huge demand for professional customer support and they all run official communities. You need a reality check. Who cares? GrapheneOS themselves advertise their official community and they arbitrarily delete and ban anyone they don't like for whatever reason. They even monitor other online spaces and ban anyone for being/writing on another online space they don't like.
Who wants to depend on software where the core community is at risk of imploding every day? Even if it's high quality now, the future direction matters.
I’m curious, has there been any updates about this situation? I did a search on this Daniel M dude & apparently he “stepped back” from grapheneOS in 2023 for “his health.“ (Sounds like a sensible move, he clearly had some “issues” to work through when all this was going on!) Is he still involved in the project? Is he Ok? Their website (as of 2024) still has content (eg. the history page) that certainly seems to have been written by him, or at least with a very similar “tone.” Has grapheneOS stalled? Kept improving? Is it still considered trustworthy 2024?
OK, I've watched enough of this. I don't know where to go from here. I heard a lot of good things about Graphene so I bought a Pixel 7 and installed Graphene on it. Now I watch a video like this and I'm wondering about the future of Graphene.
Don't just judge an organisation by the product, because if the people involved or at the top are corrupt of unstable, then that product you think is secure may already have been compromised by the security services.
Thank you for finally doing a video on this and in such an even handed way! I've been waiting for one for awhile. This helped clear some things up--I'll be avoiding both Graphene and Copperhead. Calyx might be the way.
@@ub3r I have schizophrenics in my family and his entire behavior here is astoundingly similar. For everyone's sake and especially his sake he should seek help from professionals.
@@danilodistefanis5990 Saying someone has symptoms similar to a condition is not the same as diagnosising them. I cant believe I actually have to say this.
the worst thing about that is that it puts a massive questionmark over the project. I wanted to give graphine os a tive, but after that, kinda hard if there are so many controversies with it's leadership. just sad to see this kind of stuff
Wow, that was a lot... but thankfully you don't need to be in any communities to use the best mobile operating system. GrapheneOS is still top notch in terms of security. Hey, at least Snowden agrees with that.
25:39 and 46:00 Wow for a dev that says "Not having enough time" and "dont like wasting time" he sure wasted a hell lot filling up that and other posts reddit, posting so many tweets, posting on Matrix, posting on Facebook, he posts posts posts continuously yet he don't have time according to himself.
So... a person who develops a security and privacy centric OS, doesn't think he might have paranoid thoughts. And takes it as offensive. There's some introspection to be had there. I have met some people like this and they think the whole world is out to get them. There is nothing to do but for them to find help. No one should be in that state of mind.
Daniel appears to be suffering from severe paranoia, which is common among neurodivergent people. It's also treatable. So many of the text logs shown are simply potential product users that are legitimately confused about something, and they're trying to get help. Yet Daniel immediately labels them as "concern trolling" and sends them on their way. I actually pity Daniel; he *really* needs professional help. It isn't the fact that he doesn't have social skills, it's the fact that his EXTREME paranoia has made him unable to properly read situations for what they truly are; a confused user trying to get help immediately gets branded as someone there to hurt the project. And he does this with EVERYONE. Everyone is there to hurt his project. It's really sad. Please, Daniel, get some help. Everyone is NOT out to get you.
If GrapheneOS is toxic, meh that kinda sucks. But I've had nothing but gold experiences with people in the GrapheneOS community. I've never spoke with Daniel & I have seen recent posts where they call people trolls, but I honestly don't care. Yes you have damming evidence but their OS is just so good, & their doing so much work for the privacy community I sent then a couple bucks of Monero & I use GrapheneOS myself. Their implementation of Sandboxed Google Play works great, much better than MicroG. I've SUCCESSFULLY gotten 2 other people to use GrapheneOS as their daily drivers & I've legit probably gotten over 100 people using Signal, a few of them people I on boarded wanted the privacy for their own circles & it ended up spreading like wild fire.
All I can say is that the host of the show sounds a little bit dumb, like genuinely. Scrolling through the list of his recent videos confirms the apprehensions.
Still, after comparing the different privacy os's as I am preparing to degoogle, Graphene ticks all the boxes for me. Even though the community's behavior is dreadful.
Cause like Mr Musk, he acts like a petulant child and menace to get his way and claim he "invented" and funded the company, issuing threats along the way.
So it's been a year since I started my adventure with alternative OS's on my Pixel. I wasn't looking to de-google but was looking to quiet what I would call background OS noise day to day. When you search for anything in reference to alternatives to "Google" for the most part - you get links for de-googling. I've been on GOS (GrapheneOS) for the better part of a year now and while I am commenting on your video about toxic community I have no doubt these comments will be removed since they are not in agreement with your assessment. I tried both Calyx and Graphene, and my personal choice was to go with Graphene and here we are a year later. The community as a whole are extremely helpful, answer the same questions over and over and over (same as most internet boards) . I've had interactions with the lead team on more than one occaison, and while the majority of the help they try to give me is above my knowledge base - they are sure to supply readable links to help me try to better understand. I am learning every day and appreciate all views on the board. It is unfortunate that the OS cannot be judged on it's own merit. The improvements that have been released just over this past year alone have opened it up to a much broader user base but unfortunately due to partial reviews and "personal attacks" like this one do the exact opposite. Maybe that was the underlying plan from the start. I look forward to impartial reviews from this channel in the future - where OS's or whatever else you review is based on their merits not who is the author and if you agree with that individual or not Cheers !
Same, man. I found GrapheneOS community very helpful. Even the devs themselves explain every detail of what you asked. I have never seen any toxic behavior from them. But what I saw were raids from the CalyxOS trolles. I don't know why they are doing this kind of sh*t, but whatever. Respect for GrapheneOS and its community, don't believe the Techlore guy and CalyxOS community much. They are just jealous. CalyxOS as an OS doesn't have any privacy or security advantages over GrapheneOS.
I actually like that Daniel Micay is very critical on everything that goes around, that's how true security defender should be, that gives me more comfort using Grapheneos.
What strikes me is the amount of projection, hypocrisy and performative anger in his behaviour. It's one thing to be passionate about what you do, but this kind of fragility and paranoia over constructive critical feedback does not inspire me to trust that the project is well managed or sustainable in the long term.
My uneducated guess: M reuses the code he wrote for Copperhead in Graphene, so the moment he stops being a 50% co-owner of Copperhead, Graphene will run into massive licensing issues. And no, this is not a high school drama… it's a McAfee magnitude circus show.
7 years now, 7 years of strcat lying, 7 years of him not really working on the project and getting caught up with other garbage. I wouldn't trust anything he has to write, code or otherwise.
Daniel is the type of guy who is best stored somewhere in a basement working on his project with as little social exposure as possible. His work is legit but damn his character.
This is ridiculous and frankly dangerous behaviour by GrapheneOS. Like people are counting on them to safeguard their literal privacy. Literally today I mentioned GrapheneOS to someone who's fighting the good fight in Myanmar. If your lead dev is struggling emotionally, ALL OF US are here to support him get better, but he's threatening the project's future by letting his personal issues interfere with the project itself. His personal fights are literally putting the lives of Graphene's users -- journalists, activists, freedom fighters -- at stake. This is frankly shameful and irresponsible behaviour.
This is informative, and unfortunate
My issue with techlore is the misleading part about grapheneOS specially in the toxic part techlore community has been known as toxic as well to other content creators.
And this drama happened because of misinfo
@@sebastian05000 source?
Now the question is what options do we have, and are any of them good. I will have to look into Calyx.
@@WindyWalk He already have been using GrapheneOS but now has been scared off of it do to some drama.
@@007Strings007 He's not been scared off, he was disrespected by the creator who seem's to be suffering from paranoid delusions and decided to say fuck it and stop supporting the creator.
Creator of a hardened privacy oriented smartphone OS acts like everyone is out to get him.
Makes sense.
Honestly I laughed so hard at this.
You say that as a joke, but I think it's very likely that there's a much higher percentage of people with anxiety issues or schizoid personality disorders in these kinds of privacy communities than in the general population, just due to motivation. And they're already more common in the general population than you'd think.
Also this is someone who already openly has a mental health condition, and they rarely come alone. Being smart sadly doesn't really help against these kinds of issues. If anything it makes them worse because you're better at rationalizing things. Really breaks my heart, the foss community is already way too small and fragile without unnecessary drama.
Truly a reincarnation of Terry Davis. But Terry at least didn't attack those who wanted to help him.
@@mikeuk1927 Comparing this paranoia douchebag to the great Terry is very wrong
@@mikeuk1927 that's really not true, when he was on his meds? Yea, but if you ever became suspect to his schizo delusions he'd call you and fbi/cia nword, for the last few years of his life helping him was a landmine.
I don't know if it's the ego about the project they've created or something else but I've seen a lot of communities and creators act pretty terrible at genuine criticism from outsiders. What's even worse is some FOSS communities that try to silence/control others that disagree with them which is the exact thing that influenced me (and many others) to avoid proprietary platforms in the first place. We need to be better than this.
I do wonder if this is a general human trait. To be overprotective of something you identify with. Tribalism if you will. No matter if that is gnome, Apple, arch, Linux in general, sports teams... As soon as you have a group of people you have people within those groups who defend it to their death no matter what the "attack" is, even if that is valid criticism
Best Comment on this Topic i can imagine!
>What's even worse is some FOSS communities that try to silence/control others that disagree with them
They sound like Democrats.
Id like to see distributed governance maintained by organizations that have completely transparent finances and well defined systems for ensuring community representation.
hope to start A nonprofit online game publishing company with these things in mind one day.
many foss projects grow to a point that they think it’s a good idea to have sjw type people getting involved. the red flag is a “code of conduct” that imposes behavioral policing on anybody. mist projects are not immune to bs like this and succumb to the doctrine. this is a rabbit hole i recommend to dive into.
Hey Everyone, as mentioned in the video - Daniel Micay, the lead developer of GrapheneOS has threatened to contact UA-cam and attempt to take down our content. I encourage everyone to watch our Graphene content and come to your own conclusion.
If this video is falsely removed, we post our content to Odyssee and PeerTube as well.
Correction: Nick is the Executive Director, not the owner, of the Calyx Institute. Calyx is a nonprofit so they don't have owners.
@R L Yeah, I fully agree!
@R L I agree, getting it removed would be censorship. However, Techlore has completely lost the plot here. He gives the advice of looking inwards and doing some self-reflection, maybe he should apply this himself. Clearly he could not handle criticism (Ironical given the content of the video). When a person voice they have a mental health issue, you do not go out and make a video, which may very well contribute to a worsening of such, no matter how triggered you may be. Techlore’s bias and very little investigative application are not doing him any favours, just make him look like a little triggered baby applying the dunning-kruger effect tbh. Also I am not in the GrapheneOS community, just want ensure nobody think such.
@@newname8988 People should not use "mental health issues" as an excuse to be a shitty person.
Lots of us have mental health issues, including depression, but we aren't assholes to people then cry "DEPRESSION" when challenged on our behaviour, expecting it to be and using it as some sort of magic "get out of jail free" card to enable us to be toxic without consequence.
This video should reach the PrivacyTools guys to see if it's worth it to keep this project as a recommendation.
@@nerdrooted Sorry can’t respond to your original comment Techlore is censoring the comments.
pretty much.....grapheneos is amazing calynxos is amazing it doesn't mean the devs or users are amazing
thanks you just saved me an hour of my life.
@Dream Why is asking the government for permission a good use of money? In this sector the main goal should be to get a system that is ungovernable.
Daniel Micay (strcat) said in a tweet yesterday that he has stepped down as the lead developer of GrapheneOS.
BTW: Love your zip-up hoodie.
Finally
Yep. When you said “high school drama”...yep. That’s exactly what this sounds like.
Not even "high school" - more like "kindergarten".
@Biology Discussions Eh, Gamergate was generally smeared as toxic first, because it was a response to games "journalists" being shady af, coordinated so they all pushed the same thing, and took kickbacks from game publishers for good reviews. They really had no ethics...still don't really.
Who's in a better position to smear you than a "journalist"?
But that was many, many years ago now. I have no idea what the holders-on are like.
@@liesdamnlies3372 to be fair, the anti sjw antifeminist tendencies were there from the start and took completely over to the point where people actually interested in ethics in games journalism distanced themselves. Many of the leading gamergaters of the time are now "journalists" themselves with little to no ethics when it comes to accuracy.
@@terrydaktyllus1320 found the 7th grader
@@terrydaktyllus1320 Yes Terry, high school just like you're in rn with your pals or jr high. Lol got caught and burnt accordingly. It's all drama and you guys make it all up. Lol lol
This video has 80k views as of 26 May 2023. Now that it's been mentioned on a different channel focusing on right to repair and highlighting the toxicity they personally experienced, I'm curious to see how many more views this video gets now. I wonder if this will have a bit of a Streisand effect.
At least 6,000.
That's why I came here 🍿
86k as of 149 p.m. Eastern
@@ChristopherGonzalez1280 88k 30.05.2023
@@mikeuk1927 90K 03.06.2023
As he said: This is informative, and unfortunate
This is informative, and unfortunate
This is informative, and unfortunate
This is exactly the reason I tend to stay astray of extreme privacy communities. Unless you agree with everything in their narrative, you are being attacked and bullied.
@Elias 2 and people socially reinforce that within their in-groups. It's a positive (aka self-feeding) feedback loop.
That sounds pretty much like "the internet".
@@racheldolezal738 it's sad that people are driven by emotions and not rationality.
@@racheldolezal738 honestly I purposefully avoid knowing about politics I dont even know what a Democrat is and tbh I think I'm happier not caring
@@theeguy9022 Everyone engages in politics
Apple and Google are watching this video -- popcorn in hand, laughing their asses off. UBPorts is listening from the apartment next door with a glass to the wall, dreaming about being able to afford popcorn and Epstein didn't kill himeslf.
Guess any attempts to get this taken down will be ignored lol
what's wrong with ubports?
When someone posts and it doesn't sound stable there is only one conclusion you can make.
This made me laugh harder then it should have.
Thank you.
The glowies won.
My heart goes out to TheJollyRoger on the matrix screenshots. What a nice guy, he just tried to deescalate the situation.
If Copperhead owns any assets related to GrapheneOS (e.g., website domains), then it is understandable why Daniel would not just want to walk away.
So I tried Calyx and Graphene OS Matrix channel and I didn't see any of the drama that is spoken for here. I did noticed that Nick from Calyx OS took sides with other user ( for several days ) this person had gotten upset that I was helping someone, then started to attack my person for no reason at all and next thing I knew Nick Calyx had banned me from the Matrix Channel. Since then I close my account with the Calyx Institute and I am moving to Graphene OS that by the way have in my opinion been more professional for what I can tell. PS Still not banned in graphene for helping others even if opinion are not the same.
Wow, Daniel is starting fight after fight and actively trying to make enemies with everybody who crosses his path, even the people genuinely trying to support his project. Then he writes walls of text trying to justify his aggressive behaviour. That is is so unhealthy and such a waste of time. Dude, just stop with the drama and focus on your programming, you seem to have a real talent in programming, don't waste your time on picking fights and creating drama. And as so many people have said before: There are many ways to seek mental help, many of them are even free of charge - use them.
He's clearly sick
For the sake of progress on GrapheneOS, you'd only stand to gain by growing some thicker skin.
I know first-hand and second-hand that GrapheneOS saves people lives and livelihoods. The critique of "highschool drama" is so, so unimportant, and only serves to take away from Micay's work. Who gives a flying fcku abt how the man behaves?
It's my belief that such a project couldn't be led so soundly by anyone but a genius workaholic crank like Daniel Micay. He's a true technical lead. I personally love the guy. As a fellow developer Linux/AOSP dev, I would work under him in a heartbeat, and we would get along perfectly. There is a reason that GrapheneOS is by far the most secure operating system on planet Earth for any computing device despite being massively out-gunned by Google and Apple.
Finally, you must acknowledge that you are in no position to critique DM's efficiency (unless ur a GOS contributor). DM is one of the most efficient devs I've ever seen. Who gives a fcku if his work is fueled by testosterone? Please, contribute on GOS before making such a silly remark.
Loser.
Here from Lewis Rossman's video. This is unfortunate, I really want to love graphene os, but this is a problem.
But is it your problem?
@@epajarjestys9981 Good question, I am not sure yet.
I was vaguely aware of this drama when I decided to install Graphene, which I've been using for months. Looks like it escalated seriously. I think that sadly the guy is mentally not well and while I think he really was wronged in the beginning, his reaction is just shooting himself in the foot in terms of reputation.
I was just looking for a new phone and came across this drama....
May pause some more...
Micay finally shot the boat while trying to make everybody dance with a figurative gun. Hopefully the next leadership will patch the hole and Graphene can become a powerful objective vessel in the privacy/security fleet, instead of a rough script of Silicon Valley.
I find it funny that I never actually heard about Techlore before Daniel freaked out on Louis. I tried Graphine because of louis. I dropped Graphine because of the unhinged fool who freaked out on Louis.
So you can't make your own rational decisions but need handholding from big daddy.
@@epajarjestys9981 lol aww did i hurt your feelings boot licker. i made an informed decision based on the facts presented. A traumatic child in charge of an open source project with access to its coding is not safe and secure in my opinion. I will not support a developer who attacks random comments and slanders others without evidence. Then tries to use a disability as a shield for shitty behavior. You want to sheeple behind that? go ahead and lick that boot.
@@epajarjestys9981 How did you get to this conclusion? With such long jump you could reaxh the Moon. And why so agressive?
@@epajarjestys9981 daniel, is that you?
@@mikeuk1927 His comment sounds as aggressive as yours, just a matter of perception
If graphene OS is build with Copperhead OS code when there is a good reason why they both holding own to their 50% share and why there is a lawsuit.
Can you review threema app? Or comparison of threema with signal?
Sure thing
@@techlore if we can put in requests can you cover Session & Bridgefy possibly in the future?
There are a lot of comparisons available.
Signal has no recent audit and only works with a phone number. The laws of the USA are giving the gov access to everything.
Threema has several audits every year and does not need a phone number. Also it is in Switzerland - a country with strict privacy laws.
I'd say the most likely reason Daniel and James BOTH don't want to give up the company is probably money. It seems likely that Copperhead ("the Company") has some amount of operating funds in the Company's Assets Under Management; whether that's bitcoin, or cash, or something else is anyone's guess. Whoever owns the Company, can do what they want with those assets.
So, for example, if James gives up and sells his half of the Company, then Daniel legally owns all of the assets. The same is true in reverse if Daniel gives up instead. So neither of them want to give it up, because there's money locked inside; and whoever doesn't give up gets the money.
Now, whether they want the money for themselves, or to use to pay developers, is anyone's guess. MY guess is that they both just want it for themselves.
I came looking for this video because I was researching which ROM to install on my phone and came across Louis Rossmann's recent video about his disagreement with Micay and why he's ditching GrapheneOS. I eventually decided on CalyxOS because the installer was super simple, they've gotten some grant money and their leader isn't trying to burn the place to the ground.
8:25 - “What’s in it for him”….well, if CopperheadOS owns the code and if Micay reused some of that code in GrapheneOS then Micay would need to gain 100% ownership of Copperhead to prevent its CEO (Donaldson) from suing him for stealing its code.
This is informative and unfortunate
This is informative, and unfortunate
Oh Henry, as a GrapheneOS user I watched this video, and man you made me really angry from Micay... I mean I knew he's somehow special but I was like, meh I'm here for the OS.
After watching this video I'm really sad how Micay is really hurting and destroying the great product that he made. and I start questioning my decision of sticking with GrapheneOS. I mean I really love grapheneOS but man he's toxic, well to be honest. not only him (The community is also really toxic, you only had to ask one to know lol).
Thanks for the Video man.
I found this out within a day of joining the community to ask for help. Sucks that GrapheneOS is good because I'd love to never deal with any of those people ever again.
He's basically Chris-Chan.
@@EricDMMiller That depiction seems a little over the top, no?
@@EricDMMiller You're basically Voldemort, Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin and Charles Manson.
I am ditching Graphene, myself. This is for multiple reasons. One being the toxicity discussed in this video. The other being that they actually recommend using certain services over certain other services. Even though the services they recommend are sandboxed. It's true that this limits the information available to the services. What's also true is that it still fingerprints your device.
This is such a massive shame as GrapheneOS is a amazing & beautiful piece of work. :(
This is informative, and unfortunate.
Stay away from any extreme community. If open discourse, asking questions of the status quo, etc. is socially disallowed or discouraged, it's a good tip off to the toxicity level. It can be taxing. Agreeing with them will give you reward chemicals and social validation, but I assure you there are other methods of receiving this.
well said
if the project has a code of conduct, take what’s good and run.
graphene coc: “This Code of Conduct is adapted from the Chromium Code of Conduct, based on the Geek Feminism Code of Conduct, the Django Code of Conduct, and the Geek Feminism Wiki "Effective codes of conduct" guide.”
it’s a cult.
@@britneyfreek A code of conduct is somewhat necessary for any big foss project, though. Hell, a coc is important for any big software project, imo, even proprietary ones within companies. If you have ever worked on a large software project, then you know how hard it is to manage without standards, and with foss projects, you are literally managing complete strangers who don't have their job on the line
Now what the coc says might be problematic or outright authoritarian, which is horrible, but a coc can also be good. It depends on the content
@@CoreDump451 No, it isn't needed at all. The ONLY purpose of a CoC is to push goals outside of the project.
It ALWAYS reduces the quality of the code.
What you want is a standard for quality code, NOT a code of conduct.
Further, there are large groups of people who are extremely toxic who will not participate in a project UNTILL there is a code of conduct because until it is written down, they don't know how to get around it.
@@SirSpence99 exactly. and those people rarely contribute any code of significance to a project. only stirring up drama and claiming somebody looked wrong.
This is informative and unfortunate.
This is informative, and unfortunate
Good vid. I use Graphene but I just mind my own business and go out of my way to not get pulled into the bullshit.
Same. I really don't care about the community nor any drama.
I dont use it but people likr this can pull something suddenly and people get affected
I'm at 16:55 What you show is Daniel making all these claims against CalyxOS employees but not giving even one single specific example. In this video Daniel didn't even quote one thing a CalyxOS employee said against GraphineOS, but instead made vague claims that they said things.
To be fair, microG isn't a secure way to interface with Google's services. The way GOS started with the unprivileged sandbox just a few days ago is the preferred way technically to go forward. It takes advantage of Android 12's new framework to support third-party app stores. GOS favors security above all other concerns, so things like app launching speed registers very low on the priority list. Same goes for app compat. It's one of the reasons I dropped GOS for a while (it couldn't run my banking app, but even the new compat technique likely won't help, either due to the way those types of apps handle attestation). I just went back to stock Android. CalyxOS was too much of a compromise that it felt "lukewarm" to me. Either commit to security or don't. Otherwise, you're just setting up false expectations for yourself.
I get some of your points but security isn't everything and absolute. It isn't either secure or not secure like black and white or all or nothing. Absence of Google and tracking may be enough for most/ordinary people. Phones with microG aren't being hacked like crazy.
He just stepped down fro Graphene OS :0
Yup, posted "Stepping down as project leader of GrapheneOS" on GrapheneOS discussion forum 4 hours ago.
You need to treat Daniel Micay as a mentally ill person, and ignore his behavior, instead helping to make GrapheneOS if possible, or making an analog without Daniel Micay if it is impossible to work with him. We need the existence of GrapheneOS or its counterpart. I study the history of the USSR and its ideological founders, it's also very complicated in terms of interpersonal relations and there were and are extremely difficult situations. But all this requires overcoming, otherwise humanity will either perish or become cattle.
The fact that you made this in a way that I find honest and well-intentioned, then get accused of such wild accusations by the lead developer of the project, is pretty alarming. I was considering leaving the apple ecosystem because I thought Graphene was a really cool and compelling project, but seeing how strcat is handling these situations does not make me feel comfortable or confident in the overall integrity of the project. To accuse someone of holding views that are anti-autism because you call out the behavior of someone who happens to have it is pretty sad, and really paints that entire community of people who know how to act professionally in a really poor light. Daniel really needs to walk back all these allegations, and realize that you were not attacking him. If anything, you were calling out the misconduct you observed the same way he claimed to be.
Sure, doxxing or swatting someone is deplorable behavior. But I don't remember any instance where you or anyone else was inciting that behavior against Daniel. Pulling the victim card and being a cry bully doesn't help the project grow in scope or reputation.
Graphene is tremendous and it's feature set is incredibly compelling. I use it on my phone to this day. The community is absolutely horrible. I replied 'lol you're wrong' to a former maintainer in GrapheneOS' chat when he said Microsoft Pluton will make Windows the most secure OS and he spent 3 days tagging me in the room pretending he never said it even while never deleting the original message.
This is informative and unfortunate.
Also intriguing. But highly disturbing.
The greatest enemy of any revolution, is the short-sighted selfish interests of individuals. If the problem lies with it's leadership, then the project is doomed.
One must only look to history, both recent and past, for examples. The sad truth is, when individuals within a well-meaning movement bicker, the only one who wins is the opposition, in this case, oppressive and closed source OS providers.
My advice, as someone who has Managed app development, is to stay positive, and supportive of your programmers and project managers. Be openmined and listen to all reasonable suggestions. Have purity of vision, and keep project goals at the forefront. All this nonsense about undermining "competing products" will only destroy the validity and success of one's own project.
Best of luck to all.
I just love how you think you know all about human nature without providing a single shred of evidence... /s
What revolution, lol
I just asked a simple question in the matrix room and one of the admins went on a spiel carrying on like a child. I want to use Graphene but I know that if I have a problem there's a chance it won't be fixed and I'll be attacked and insulted instead. That makes Graphene only as stable as it's administrators, and no I am not making any remarks about depression, it wasn't strcat that commented, he was helpful.
Funny, I asked a simple question and Strcat condescended to me then banned me when I pointed out that condescension. Afterwards he accused me of being a brigader, said that our messages were archived as further "evidence", and that he had spent "considerable time" trying to help me (It was literally less than 30 seconds), then demanded an apology for "what I did." I went from thinking that he was telling the truth to being unsure of his truthfulness, but knowing for a fact that he's a petulant, egotistical manchild in the course of fewer than five minutes.
Edit: Forgot to mention that I didn't even know who he was until I looked it up after, and I didn't ask him specifically. This guy was definitely stuffed into a few lockers as a child.
@@stevemcqueen2922 He's the perfect example of why emotional intelligence is important. He's clearly intelligent and knows what he knows.. but unfortunately he just can't manage his emotions and clearly, illness. I asked the same question multiple times and they couldn't answer me so I was accused of "spreading fud". Oh yeah, I have since been banned by strcat losing his temper/mind.
This is why open source projects still need Public Relations people. It's not just Elon Musk who desperately needs them, but refuses.
Slander is spoken, in print it's libel ;)
Ooooo ...now I know
@@EnlightenedSavage Learned that from J Jonah Jameson, ua-cam.com/video/vcM1kTZm-nM/v-deo.html
as someone who just recently joined the Techlore community a year ago and who hasnt really been deeply involved in everything going on (i fairly recently started watching every video) i was very surprised when i saw the title of this video because, like you said in this video, ive only heard good things from Techlore about GrahineOS. Everyone always recommends it as the first option for a rom. just goes to show how the things Daniel is saying about Techlore dont make any sense
Techlore has censored many comments, all says the do no have the issues Techlore has. An example, anyone saying they don’t have limited app compatibility.with GrapheneOS are censored.
@@newname8988 i doubt that but i could be wrong since i dont have an android and dont talk about that stuff. the mods might have a problem with seemingly false information but that would never excuse them to censor without warning or justification. other peoples experiences may differ greatly. but since you didn’t provide proof i have no idea if what you’re saying is at all true since again i dont get involved in these conversations
@@Jzombi301 Several users have written comments saying they do not have app limitations with GrapheneOS, they got censored (that is comments are removed). Of course I cannot post ‘proof’ in a UA-cam comment section, but I know this is happening as I am getting the notifications for replies and when going to check the comment, are censored/removed. Saying GrapheneOS has limited app compatibility is misinformation and Techlore is actually the one spread misinformation with this one, likely due to bias and/or blind spots. If it’s a genuine blind spot(lack of technical capabilities) then he should simple state he cannot figure out out how to use GrapheneOS for daily use.
Wow. Crazy. I've been waiting for the phone I need to run this os to get cheaper to finally try it but seeing that No way Im interested in Graphene at all anymore. Micay seriously sound like my narcissist ex. He has serious mental health issues he could fix if he wanted. That'S too bad now The phone I was gonna get is finally cheap and I have no idea whatPrivate OS to get. What do you recommend ?
this whole situation got my brain going like: ↗️⬇️⬆️↙️↘️⬇️⬆️↖️↙️
This guy from GrapheneOS seems to have some spectrum of Mental disorders (other than autism), i hope he can realize it and seek proper medical treatment, it is doing a disservice to the product reputation.
Well said, being neurodivergent is not an excuse to be a dick
Nothing better than pulling up an hour-long video full of tech space drama on a Saturday afternoon. Love it!
With all this BS, I have one question: why would Calyx not want you to review their software?
I think we can all guess what's going to be discussed on LTT's WAN show today.
Yup
This dude need some serious IN PERSON help, there's no way keyboard help or slander will fix whatevers going on with Daniel.
Thank you for bringing light to this Henry, fr don't listen to this hater
Thank God I didn't install GraphemeOS, given the behaviour of its leadership.
Jokes aside, it really makes sense that a person like that would be interested enough to go and create a ROM focused on privacy. If you want something for privacy, find a paranoid person who just _can't_ live comfortably like all the rest of us without a ROM that is sufficiently private. If you want a piece of software that satisfies your most sophisticated tastes and unique needs, go find the most demanding and pedantic person there is, he would probably already be developing the software right now because nothing else satisfies him amongst the existing alternatives.
Extreme communities around software that is for those with extreme needs aren't necessarily bad or dangerous. It's just, when you look for a leader for such an extreme community, you have to keep in mind two things:
1. If the leader doesn't have enough issues to be truly interested in this extreme piece of software he's developing, he probably won't do the best job
2. Since the best leader you can find for the job is someone who's likely unstable, the best route for this would be to look both for the leader and for someone who can keep him in check (gently).
Usually you don't get socially nice and warm people who are also of extreme views on software and are able to develop said software. You only get one of the two, and if you really want the extreme software, your only option is to LEARN HOW TO HANDLE THE UNSTABLE SPECIALISTS. That's just how it is. So, yeah, look for two people from the very start. And maybe set a separate budget for paying for the leader's therapy, there's nothing wrong with that and it actually helps even _before_ the crisis unfolds.
Based on experience? Do you mind giving me another example?
@@UnixOath Linus Torvalds
@@stigcc ahh, thanks
But how does the toxicity part help? It doesnt. The personal attacks & toxicity literally dont help at all
@@botowner8623 Read about «Management by Perkele»
Thank you for daring to speak up against this abuse. I am very glad there is at least one video detailing this. Having been victim of his constant harassment has been quite awful and videos like these help defend myself against the constant harassment and trolling that I have personally experienced from Micay and others in the GrapheneOS project that has now been ongoing for almost a full years for simply pointing out one tiny detail he got wrong on Twitter once.
Last week I spent £600 and bought a Pixel 5 specifically to test both Graphene OS and Calyx OS. This was after seeing your video comparing both ROMs, which I thought was a completely fair and balanced video.
I was looking to get away from using vanilla Android, as I want to try to, at least to some degree, de-google my phone usage.
So the phone arrived, and before even using the stock rom I had wiped it and installed Graphene OS. Their webUSB installer is actually brilliant, and makes flashing your phone a complete breeze.
The OS itself is fast and stable, as you'd expect with all the Google crap stripped out, and it was a pleasure to use. Unfortunately for me I found it unusable in a practical sense as a daily driver, as there were several key applications, such as mobile banking, that were unusable on Graphene.
Graphene would be a fantastic OS for those that don't really use a wide variety of applications on their phone, and use it for basic phone, text & browsing. It's perfectly suited to that purpose and use-case.
So, I wiped Graphene and installed CalyxOS. This was a bit trickier, but was still pretty easy to install using their linux installation script.
Side note for Windows 10 users: Don't bother trying to run the CalyxOS installer, as Windows will immediately flag it as a virus and delete it. It's not a virus, it's just written in the GO language. That's something that's on the CalyxOS devs to re-write IMO in a more commonly used dev language. Anyhoo...
Nick at CalyxOS should be grateful to you, and UA-camrs like you who recommend the likes of CalyxOS (and Graphene) for users to try out, because otherwise he wouldn't have another committed user in me.
CalyxOS, while not as secure as GrapheneOS, is secure enough, private enough, and still lets me use common applications such as my aforementioned banking application without much issue. It, like Graphene, is fantastic. Fast, stable and the battery life (on both roms tbf) is amazing.
However, as much as I like Graphene for what it is, and what it does, I will never ever personally recommend it to anyone ever again.
I was completely unaware of the toxic behaviours of Micay or his dev(s), and cannot in good conscience, promote the work, no matter how good it is, of devs who partake in this type of toxic, gaslighting behaviour.
Quite how Micay and his devs expect to grow their product, taking a toxic, scorched earth approach like this to fellow devs, people actively promoting their OS, and just regular random users, is baffling to me.
Needless to say I'll never be installing Graphene ever again, and will wholeheartedly recommend CalyxOS (and to a lesser extent LineageOS) to others from now on.
Thank you for this review
We're currently working on resolving the issue where Windows 10 flags the installer as a virus.
@@jefflandale187 Thank you! :)
@@nerdrooted Wow his dev skills and the os has not much to do with his behavior, its a great os. C:
@@fredocarlous5288 It is, and it's improved since then by getting Play Store working and sandboxed.
Doesn't excuse his behaviour though tbf.
Good on y'all for being honest with your reviews. I daily drive GrapheneOS, and I can see how the average user would have issues with it. I can live with no proprietary apps, no Google services, only offline maps, etc. But most people will want to use DoorDash, or Google Maps, or Twitter or w/e. I don't need it, but it's a valid concern for the average user.
You can only use offline maps on GOS?
@@stigccyou can choose either to use offline maps or online maps
Bringing up (or even threatening) self harm the instant one is called out for their bad behavior and being held to account is classic Gaslighting 101! That alone tells me all I need to know about someone and their character. Then again, of course, it's never alone as a witness against them. They are self-righteous narcissists through and through. I know plenty of people like that, unfortunately, and they are all so very exhausting and unpleasant to be around and to work with. They're impossible to work with, in fact! Everyone else is always to blame for their constant failures to be decent human beings, of course. Nothing is ever their fault. How could it be? They're the picture of perfection and can do no wrong, didn't you know?
Informative & unfortunate.
Had no idea the GrapheneOS head was this weird. Want nothing to do with it now!
I bought a pixel phone to use grapheneOS because of your videos. And shout out grapheneOS for the easy install via web for people like me😂
Hope this FOSS community gets more friendly because FOSS enemies are the bigger fish to fry.
You can still install Calyx on a Pixel
This is unfortunate, and informative
Imma bout to install grapheneOS on a pixel6a today. Any reason I shouldn't?
How tf would you know if leadership reflects the project? Ur not even a dev, and you haven't contributed to GOS. It's one of the most impressive FOSS projects on the planet in many respects, and it's an awesome project with great management. Your thumbnail is preposterous.
2 years later and this drama pops up again wtf. some people never change xD
I don’t understand why communities around software matter at all. If the software is, with solid docs/wikis, and it’s open source, who cares about the personalities of that the devs, users, etc?? Maybe I’m weird because I’m a techie whose social life doesn’t revolve around tech.
Because communities are the only place you can rely on for your questions and issues when you use free open-source software, unlike commercial products for which you can get corporate customer support. Solid docs/wikis don't answer your specific questions and don't solve your specific issues. You need to remind yourself of the reality that even very polished commercial products by Big Tech corporations have huge demand for professional customer support and they all run official communities. You need a reality check. Who cares? GrapheneOS themselves advertise their official community and they arbitrarily delete and ban anyone they don't like for whatever reason. They even monitor other online spaces and ban anyone for being/writing on another online space they don't like.
Who wants to depend on software where the core community is at risk of imploding every day? Even if it's high quality now, the future direction matters.
Seth Simmons and now your ccomments are convincing me to go for for CalyxOS (instead of GrapheneOS)
What did you end up doing?
This is informative, and unfortunate!)
I didn't watch this video before, but thanks to 1 comment I find this informative and unfortunate.
Barbra streisand effect at it's very finest.
I’m curious, has there been any updates about this situation?
I did a search on this Daniel M dude & apparently he “stepped back” from grapheneOS in 2023 for “his health.“ (Sounds like a sensible move, he clearly had some “issues” to work through when all this was going on!)
Is he still involved in the project? Is he Ok? Their website (as of 2024) still has content (eg. the history page) that certainly seems to have been written by him, or at least with a very similar “tone.” Has grapheneOS stalled? Kept improving? Is it still considered trustworthy 2024?
OK, I've watched enough of this. I don't know where to go from here. I heard a lot of good things about Graphene so I bought a Pixel 7 and installed Graphene on it. Now I watch a video like this and I'm wondering about the future of Graphene.
He stepped away from the project its being maintained by the community so it doesn't matter anymore kind of like the Gentoo developer.
@LouisRossmannLive just got sent a D&C from Daniel as well.
Don't just judge an organisation by the product, because if the people involved or at the top are corrupt of unstable, then that product you think is secure may already have been compromised by the security services.
Is graphene compromised?
@@NeonFreezePlaysGames No. There are a bunch of real dumb comments on this video.
@@NeonFreezePlaysGames doesn't seem to be. Seems like unnecessary drama.
Don't dramatize.
@@smsg83 you need to do your research before you comment...
Thank you for finally doing a video on this and in such an even handed way! I've been waiting for one for awhile. This helped clear some things up--I'll be avoiding both Graphene and Copperhead. Calyx might be the way.
It seems more like he has paranoid schizophrenia which is probably what is causing his depression. Hopefully he gets some help.
where did you get that idea from?
@@ub3r I have schizophrenics in my family and his entire behavior here is astoundingly similar. For everyone's sake and especially his sake he should seek help from professionals.
Please don’t diagnose people with severe psychiatric conditions if you haven’t properly assessed them (provided you’re a doctor in the subject).
@@danilodistefanis5990 Saying someone has symptoms similar to a condition is not the same as diagnosising them. I cant believe I actually have to say this.
I can guess your background from your comment alone. In fact, I can guess more than that. But I will stop there.
the worst thing about that is that it puts a massive questionmark over the project. I wanted to give graphine os a tive, but after that, kinda hard if there are so many controversies with it's leadership. just sad to see this kind of stuff
What he did was select all and attack everyone :)
CTRL + A
right click > Attack
Lol
Hello, I'm here because of the Streisand Effect. This is informative and unfortunate.
Wow, that was a lot... but thankfully you don't need to be in any communities to use the best mobile operating system. GrapheneOS is still top notch in terms of security. Hey, at least Snowden agrees with that.
This is informative and Unfortunate
25:39 and 46:00 Wow for a dev that says "Not having enough time" and "dont like wasting time" he sure wasted a hell lot filling up that and other posts reddit, posting so many tweets, posting on Matrix, posting on Facebook, he posts posts posts continuously yet he don't have time according to himself.
So... a person who develops a security and privacy centric OS, doesn't think he might have paranoid thoughts. And takes it as offensive. There's some introspection to be had there.
I have met some people like this and they think the whole world is out to get them. There is nothing to do but for them to find help. No one should be in that state of mind.
This is informative, and unfortunate
Daniel appears to be suffering from severe paranoia, which is common among neurodivergent people. It's also treatable. So many of the text logs shown are simply potential product users that are legitimately confused about something, and they're trying to get help. Yet Daniel immediately labels them as "concern trolling" and sends them on their way.
I actually pity Daniel; he *really* needs professional help. It isn't the fact that he doesn't have social skills, it's the fact that his EXTREME paranoia has made him unable to properly read situations for what they truly are; a confused user trying to get help immediately gets branded as someone there to hurt the project. And he does this with EVERYONE. Everyone is there to hurt his project.
It's really sad. Please, Daniel, get some help. Everyone is NOT out to get you.
If GrapheneOS is toxic, meh that kinda sucks. But I've had nothing but gold experiences with people in the GrapheneOS community. I've never spoke with Daniel & I have seen recent posts where they call people trolls, but I honestly don't care.
Yes you have damming evidence but their OS is just so good, & their doing so much work for the privacy community I sent then a couple bucks of Monero & I use GrapheneOS myself. Their implementation of Sandboxed Google Play works great, much better than MicroG.
I've SUCCESSFULLY gotten 2 other people to use GrapheneOS as their daily drivers & I've legit probably gotten over 100 people using Signal, a few of them people I on boarded wanted the privacy for their own circles & it ended up spreading like wild fire.
I have never a person with so much victim mentality.
I hope he gets help.
All I can say is that the host of the show sounds a little bit dumb, like genuinely.
Scrolling through the list of his recent videos confirms the apprehensions.
Still, after comparing the different privacy os's as I am preparing to degoogle, Graphene ticks all the boxes for me.
Even though the community's behavior is dreadful.
Why is he obsessed with copperheadOS when he's working on GrapheneOS?
Cause like Mr Musk, he acts like a petulant child and menace to get his way and claim he "invented" and funded the company, issuing threats along the way.
He worked on CopperheadOS before, likely reusing and improving upon a good amount of earlier work from there.
So it's been a year since I started my adventure with alternative OS's on my Pixel. I wasn't looking to de-google but was looking to quiet what I would call background OS noise day to day. When you search for anything in reference to alternatives to "Google" for the most part - you get links for de-googling. I've been on GOS (GrapheneOS) for the better part of a year now and while I am commenting on your video about toxic community I have no doubt these comments will be removed since they are not in agreement with your assessment.
I tried both Calyx and Graphene, and my personal choice was to go with Graphene and here we are a year later. The community as a whole are extremely helpful, answer the same questions over and over and over (same as most internet boards) . I've had interactions with the lead team on more than one occaison, and while the majority of the help they try to give me is above my knowledge base - they are sure to supply readable links to help me try to better understand. I am learning every day and appreciate all views on the board.
It is unfortunate that the OS cannot be judged on it's own merit. The improvements that have been released just over this past year alone have opened it up to a much broader user base but unfortunately due to partial reviews and "personal attacks" like this one do the exact opposite. Maybe that was the underlying plan from the start.
I look forward to impartial reviews from this channel in the future - where OS's or whatever else you review is based on their merits not who is the author and if you agree with that individual or not
Cheers !
Same, man. I found GrapheneOS community very helpful. Even the devs themselves explain every detail of what you asked. I have never seen any toxic behavior from them. But what I saw were raids from the CalyxOS trolles. I don't know why they are doing this kind of sh*t, but whatever. Respect for GrapheneOS and its community, don't believe the Techlore guy and CalyxOS community much. They are just jealous.
CalyxOS as an OS doesn't have any privacy or security advantages over GrapheneOS.
@@openalternative How do you know the "raids" are from CalyxOS? Is there proof?
I actually like that Daniel Micay is very critical on everything that goes around, that's how true security defender should be, that gives me more comfort using Grapheneos.
Yes thats valid. But how are his personal attacks & toxicity helpfull?
What strikes me is the amount of projection, hypocrisy and performative anger in his behaviour. It's one thing to be passionate about what you do, but this kind of fragility and paranoia over constructive critical feedback does not inspire me to trust that the project is well managed or sustainable in the long term.
Question for anyone : is grapheneOS still functional/usable for bare minimum GPS, wifi, telegram/signal/xmpp ? Tia
Why should it not? You think it loses functionality due to UA-cam drama?
My uneducated guess: M reuses the code he wrote for Copperhead in Graphene, so the moment he stops being a 50% co-owner of Copperhead, Graphene will run into massive licensing issues.
And no, this is not a high school drama… it's a McAfee magnitude circus show.
I'm still going to use Graphene. I prefer it over Calyx.
Your wish
4:24
I'm confused.. People normally delete evidence?
not on either side btw. just deciding on which OS to install based on speculated longevity
This is informative yet unfortunate.
Specifically, informative about human nature... yet also unfortunate, in the same context.
7 years now, 7 years of strcat lying, 7 years of him not really working on the project and getting caught up with other garbage. I wouldn't trust anything he has to write, code or otherwise.
So... what's the best privacy OS?
well, there goes an hour of my life I'll never get back and I'm blaming Dan Micay for it
Daniel is the type of guy who is best stored somewhere in a basement working on his project with as little social exposure as possible. His work is legit but damn his character.
As my dad used to say: "When everyone around you is wrong, it may be because YOU'RE wrong..."
@Luigina Trotta you don't say...
that's a bias
@Luigina Trotta go on I'm interested. Always love to have UA-cam comment arguments with people who take everything at face value. :)
This guy's super manipulative rather than just nuts. No proof of any of the smears.
This is informative, and unfortunate
i'm confused how can you go from a copyleft license to closed source?
This is ridiculous and frankly dangerous behaviour by GrapheneOS. Like people are counting on them to safeguard their literal privacy. Literally today I mentioned GrapheneOS to someone who's fighting the good fight in Myanmar. If your lead dev is struggling emotionally, ALL OF US are here to support him get better, but he's threatening the project's future by letting his personal issues interfere with the project itself. His personal fights are literally putting the lives of Graphene's users -- journalists, activists, freedom fighters -- at stake. This is frankly shameful and irresponsible behaviour.