The big thing that people fail to understand about multiple formats is that they have this "You have to pick one and only one" mindset. You wouldn't divide much when a lot if not most people would just play both options.
Yeah, i really don't understand coders argument? oh no i can't play my pet deck... yes you can, just in another format. Also just becouse you play Master Duel you can still go to a tcg ycs. Its sad to see how little they understand it.
I think an underrated aspect of set rotation is the impact is has on sealed play. With rotating set design, there's a greater focus on making sets individually playable without having to comb through old sets with cards that never got reprinted.
But that is one of the things that make sealed formats more interesting. By having access to staple cards in every set, or designing for new sets their own staple cards that basically do the same as the staple cards from older sets, sealed formats become a lot less restrictive and less challenging. Since staples are generically good, this also makes the decks that come out of sealed play more bland. Having some sets that cannot really produce workable decks at all is definitely a sacrifice worth making to have this room for creative play.
@@xCorvus7xeven if you take sets like the mega tins with mostly only staples you won't get enough of everything or even the most. I bought 12 last year and not pulled a single handtrap 3 times. 1 ash, 1 nib only from 12 boxes. This is crazy! I'm definitely for a healthy set rotation with no short prints.
@@LordKenntax Pardon, what's your point? You're mixing set design with what one can pull within a limited (and over all relatively small) number of products from that set. If you're limited to such a small amount of product, having comparable staples in each set won't do you any more good than simply playing a historic format. The unique aspect of sealed play is precisely the absence of such staples because they do not exist at all in the set of choice.
there is also the concept of "basic set", basically an old set that never rotates out. If anime cards are important then they can just make it so dark magician and blue eyes never rotate out, and some basic staples like MST or sth.
@@applejhon8308 There are popular archetypes in magic that rotated out, its fine. They come back eventually or you find another fun archetype. And its not like the decks fade away once the sets rotate. You can play it in a different format. Its also pretty hype when an archetype you like comes back.
@@hihi123hiful Archetypes in yugioh are very different from Archetypes in magic from what I understand. In yugioh archetype refers to a set of cards that either share the same "group" name or mention each other in their effects. Archetypes can differ wildy and often revolve around certain gimmicks built into their effects. Oh and there are a LOT of Archetypes.
The BEST part is that it's obvious Coders main complaint is "I can't play my suboptimal rogue deck from x years ago!" as the man just wants to play unchained. BUT in set rotation ROGUE DECKS ARE BETTER IN ETERNAL FORMATS, that's the reason why in magic eternal formats like modern there are 4000 different deck that do MUCH better than rogue Yugioh decks! BECUASE POWER CREEP ISN'T OUT OF CONTROL. I swear Yugioh players are have stockholm syndrome with power creep.
Saying WotC solved powercreep with set rotation is incredibly disingenuous (seriously this is a take I only ever hear when people are comparing MtG to other games, never in the context of discussing MtG on its own). Even in MtG, powercreep perpetually occurs because from set to set, cards generally have to be better or they won't sell. It doesn't matter cards will rotate out in 2 years when cards 4 months from now will be competing with them. Set rotation in MtG was established for the same reason YuGiOh's restricted list was expanded to the F&L list, because the game's formative years resulted in a fuckton of staples that would just scale forever and never plausibly go away. Under modern design for any game, rotation isn't the solution people are acting like it is, that's what the banlist does. In fact, heavy reliance on rotation is exactly why the Pokemon TCG is borderline unplayable, because many cards just don't get banned with inevitable rotation being used as the justification.
Duel devastator was a great release that printed a ton of staples for people to use. Imagine getting one of those boxes every year full of staple cards to prepare you for the next format!
This episode was kinda miserable to sit through because MBT was the only one who knew anything about the topic and the other three were just unwilling to do some basic research or just listen at all. This episode made me kinda glad this episode was the last one lol
@@sammydray5919 At least Gage was trying to have a proper discussion with MBT. Farfa and Coder were ones who kept yelling without even attempting to listen.
Exactly. If konami did set rotation “properly” (which isn’t even a defined thing and is probably different for everybody) it *would* be sick. They *won’t* do it properly though, I don’t even know if it *can* be done properly.
@@SDREHXC actually it is defined, It's not scientifically bullet proof, But there's industry standards for set rotation. Firstly, set rotation spans at least 2 years and doesn't happen in the first 3 years unless the player base demands it. Secondly, reprints of cards that have been rotated or are rotating out soon are reprinted in the yearly reprint set and remain legal until the set rotates out. Thirdly, if you're using hard rotation (aka every rotation rotates half or more of the available cards) after every rotation is a core set and/or reprint set to flesh out the early post-rotation format a bit more. However if you're using soft rotation this generally isn't necessary as there's always roughly (or exactly) the same amount of sets. Finally, set rotation should be accompanied by a legacy format that allows cards from all sets to be used (unless major design changes make it too difficult if not outright impossible to keep them legal.)
@@BramLastname Set rotation is exactly the reason why so many card games die after two years, even if we got a lot of new players with set rotation as soon all the card those players got became illegal most of them would just quit lol
There's actually an Official Set Rotation that happened in the OCG Asia outside Japan, It's called ”SP Format” From DUEA to SHIV, (and all side sets in between) this is the only Format you can play competitively there at the time, and everyone hated it, you also cannot use Promo cards that are only available in Japan despite being also OCG.
An issue that MBT has brought up elsewhere is: YGO sets are not designed for set rotation to exist. YGO sets currently are designed with the idea that you get whatever glue you need from elsewhere (e.g. Imperm and Effect Veiler are often not included in core sets). Magic sets are designed so that every set has some form of negation, some kinda of field wipe, some form of removal or other response (for every color). This has to happen alongside more fluid design decisions, whereas YGO currently balances using locks (type-locking, name-locking, attribute-locking, sometimes level-locking), and features name-based archetypes rather than keyword or playstyle based archetypes, which leads to an issue where a Magic set may support, idk, discarding as a playstyle, for several sets, whereas in YGO, it may get support in one set, then the next set, then not again for years. Or be dependent on a card from that same archetype not available in the current rotation, which could be solved by reprinting that card *into* the current rotation in advance, which you would do if managing a game that has set rotation.
We've seen rotation in forms like the "Sealed Only Battle Pack" sets where they existed as a 100 card pool but that sample size is too small. I think Nadir has the right approach to it where it becomes 2 different formats similarly to the other games. Having a standard and then an extended (like Pokemon) would still have players playing both. Either way, power creep has gone too far in YGO and it's incredibly draining for everyone to play/create.
I think the problem with Legacy is MTG has cards they can't reprint, not the gameplay itself. Legacy is super popular in Magic Online, it's just hard to justify paying rent money for a single dual land, especially when decks often require 5-6 to function.
Legacy is where u can see magic gameplay fast enough u can get win in less than 5 turns. And there are some powerful cards that can negate ur play without using manas / destroy ur land etc. Also combo complicated and long enough like YGO combo where u can otk ur opp within turn 2-3 iirc (storm something i forgot the name). Lot of pseudo tutor cards too, just like YGO. Its entire different game than standard. I do like legacy too when my friend was really into it few years back, he sometimes lent me some decks to play with him. As YGO player i cam say i enjoy it quite a bit. But yea problem is budgets, coz like guy above said, they dont reprint lot of powerful cards thats in reserve list, like dual lands etc. So irl, they become rather dead format coz not that many ppl can even afford to play it.
Set rotation necessatates that legacy becomes inferior in balance. The cards that are designed for standard set rotation will have to ignore legacy cards, otherwise it would defeat the purpose of a rotation in the first place. Since those cards are legal in legacy too though, bonkers combos will happen it's only a matter of time. So the only option would be to then ban those cards in legacy, but no company is realistically going to ban new product unless if it's seriously damaging bottom line. So even by virtually being there, set rotation will make legacy inferior. Beyond that, you can't expect Konami to expend more money on actually handling game balance for 2 formats, when their goal with set rotation would be to retain monetary gain.
@@Yous0147 Yugioh doesn't even have that luxury. If they introduce rotation they MUST print full decks in play groups for curated formats with new cards and selected generics smattered in.
tbh the biggest issue with set rotation in terms of yugioh that the other card games dont have is how archetypes work and how much support there is for anime only archetypes. it would turn really stale format after format when they keep reprinting all of DMG, Blue eyes, HEROs and every other fan favorite to be playable and legal to get the anime fans in there. IMO it would end up being very stale as well. Thats not to mention how the TCG loves to nickle and dime people with rarity bumps either with the product themselves with pull rarity or in the secondary market with pricing. With how archetypes are setup its very fair to say while they can reprint certain ones its also fairly easy to say theres a lot of player favorites that would probably never see a return. Like sure blackwings will probably be reprinted to some degree when they drop the anime pandering set every format but could you really say the same of Nekroz, (a notable archetype that is one of the last of its era to never get any form of direct legacy support?) or even something like Earth Machine in which its legacy of a card pool over the recent modern era has come together to make a really fun combo deck that isnt tied to all cards in a deck being "X" name? I think farfa's opinion is pretty based, if you were to implement set rotation as a side format it would be fine imo. but then you would need to support that format either in its own contained product or just have the actual will to support it in general. I wouldnt have faith in Konami to do set rotation properly, its more than likely you would see still the same power creep but they forget to print easily accessible counters or those same counters would just be rarity bumped to hell and back to make it inaccessible to newer players anyways. Hell Pokemon has set rotation and there's entire videos out there on how pokemon has been power crept since its inception. and hot take: as much as someone wants to go to bat for the yu gi boomers in the audience, i stopped playing mid 2014 due to money issues, i had to sell my entire collection. My knowledge at the time was like Shaddolls and and artifacts at full power, back when people still played traps competitively because they werent considered too slow to use. Never have I once at that point used a pendulum card or even synchro summoned (at the time i thought synchro was annoying because math hard). I had never even played a competent combo deck either since i started playing back then at the ass end of D ruler format with like babys first deck of normal summons and tributes before i moved onto playing shaddolls. I came back late TOSS format and picked up orcust a fun combo deck and learnt it. it was never that hard nor was it difficulty to understand what a link monster was or its summon. Yugioh has a lot of moving parts but lets not pretend its a complicated game to play. People just get scared off when they see the extra deck has like 4 colors in it and shit themselves. Konami having side events for older formats is the ideal way to go, they at best just need to adjust the bad parts of those formats away and then print product so people can actually play them. Cause theres no point in having the YCS Nekroz if the cards you need to play them are all 8 years old and limited in their copy count.
okay im starting to come around on the idea of set rotation, my main point against it was always old archetypes that i like but the idea that they could release a new set and makes something like worms playable sounds amazingly fun
Only for worms to be good for one format before they’re. A. Rotated out or power crept to hell. I think the issue I see is. Konami would probably never rerelease archetypes like worms if set rotation exited. You know for a fact we’d almost exclusively anime decks
The problem with the argument for set rotation is it actually won't level the playing field. Seeing what has actually happened with Pokemon and MTG among other games, it's been the opposite. The problematic power cards are rarely ever old cards, and when it is they're usually better handled being banned. It's usually newer cards that are the problem, set rotation bans all old cards, so when they design new sets they still have to content with the newer more power crept cards. In fact it exacerbates power creep because they ONLY have to design with and against those cards in mind, whereas before you could at least have some cards with lower or higher power level map to higher and lower power level cards from older sets, that's just not an option anymore. Look at it visually, these are sets overall power level released in order: 1 -> 2 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 4 -> 5 The only legal sets are the 4 last ones: 3 -> 4 -> 4 -> 5 But let's say you want to go back to a power level of 2 next set: (3 ->) 4 -> 4 -> 5 -> 2 It simply won't work. No one will play it because a power level of 2 against 5 (think like Melfy against Tear or something) is just as ridiculous as just releasing power level 2 cards on a set today. So realistically the next set will be 4, 5 or 6 which is exactly the same as today.
@@Yous0147 Actually some of the most broken sets in magic's history are from the late 90s known as the urza block and many cards had to be banned from it, as for the power creep that is going on in magic atm its because wizards isn't designing for standard they are designing for commander an eternal format. If you ask many players that have been playing magic for a very long time some of their favorite formats were like innistrad the first time which yes added a couple eternal cards to the other formats but since then have been power crept, not because of standard players wanting stronger cards but because wizards wanted to cater to commander players.
@@shanatokisaki4596 Thanks for the writeup. I know about the urza block, it mirrors old cards like painful choice in Yugioh. Many of those cards are banned even in eternal and all in modern, so they're not a problem that rotation would even be touching upon let alone fixing. They're designing cards for commander for sure, but I'd argue it's correlation not causation. Cards that are broken in standard are broken in commander too, what they're doing is really just designing format warping cards that act as chase cards for a set, something they've always done that rotation will not fix. It's the reason why Jace the Mind Sculptor was dominating his block despite being a planeswalker. If you look at their product line wholistically, you'll see they're amping up power level left and right, that's both in commander products and outside of it.
I think YGO actually does something a lot like Set Rotation in that they occasionally make games like Duel Links or Speed Duels, which essentially rotate out the entire format and start again at low power. I think in both cases they're designed to try to appeal to an audience that doesn't want to keep up with the insane complexity of the current game, and it basically is Konami trying to do the same thing without actually having to do rotation. I think it'd be nice if there was a supported IRL format like that, or at least on MD or something that's a little less gacha-y than DL.
thats not what set rotation is, set rotation would be keeping only the newest cards and some, while both Duel links and speed duels just start from begining.
agree, duel link, speed duel, and rush duel for me is a way for konami to refresh their cardpool, but the thing is, they are outside the main game, need other options for the main game
In the world where rotation came in I think a big challenge would be where to set the games power level. I think getting agreement on that would be crazy hard. Not that it's any better to keep trying to print crazier stuff every year haha
I don't quite agree with the fact that we can't combat first turn powercreep, a big thing that has been lacking is going second powercreep. And I don't mean outside of engine boardbreakers. I want more in-engine cards that have additional functions going second, things like in-engine HTs (like Havnis or the Bystials), cards that function better going second (Mole Cricket or even Shaddoll fusion) or, and this may be my own wild idea, cards that have an effect when they're negated. Imagine a Stratos that upon negation pops a card, that way your opponent has a choice between letting you search, negate it once and deal with the pop, or negate it twice and risk running out of negates. Going second powercreep is wholly underexplored right now but I believe we're on a turning point where it might be blown open. A lot of the cards I mentioned in the previous paragraph are relatively recent but were/are critical parts of their decks so I believe they'll set a precedent for future card design.
20:00 "the game can't get much faster" current trajectory seems like both players play on turn 1 and try to ftk each other. See lab EEV on turn 0 or tear winda locking turn 0
What I think is really important is the emphasis on card design needing to go hand in hand with rotation. Magic's Standard format has suffered from this the past few years (though I am unaware of the current state), because card designs started to go "a little" overboard despite having rotation. Another point of set rotation (and according design) is to minimize the need to put cards on the banlist. For one, because they will just rotate out, so really only the worst offenders need to be considered for the banlist. Second, imagine the terrible feeling of spending 100$+ on a playset of a card needed for your deck, only for it to land on the banlist the next week.
I feel unable to comment on this discussion, on the one hand the arguments for set rotation sound perfectly valid, but on the other hand, I literally cannot imagine the game without the ability to think back to old cards. I don't believe Konami is a good enough company to actually manage a set rotation format properly, but even if they could, they would bring back staples. They would bring back what they plan to give legacy support. They would never bring back that one card that you think has a super cool synergy. Everyone is thinking of handtraps, board breakers, removal, and depending on the format, combat tricks, tribute fodder, or stall cards. No one is thinking of bringing back Shinobi Necro, Mad Mauler, and Doomking Balerdrotch for some fun zombie mill pile. Those decks will just never be able to exist. No one would've been playing lightsworns in grass shadoll infernoid decks, because the idea of that deck probably wasn't interesting enough for whoever is managing the format. No one would've been trying to activate Kyoto Waterfront and special summon Gamaciel from hand with Saryuja in early link format. Sure, the kaijus might stick in the game, but there's not enough room to keep every card that could be interesting. Just because there are only a handful of legacy cards that are actually good, doesn't mean there is a lack of legacy cards that might be interesting.
I disagree. Set rotation in pokemon isn't combating powercreep nor card complexity. Look at all of those 200+ hp basics. It isn't upping the headcount at events either. It can work, but f&l works fine aswell.
Pokémon's power creep seems to be an era lurch forward into a new way of designing the game. It seems to be them deliberately trying to up numbers to make the gameplay of "big number crash into other big number" a real gameplay mode.
It's not exactly well known in the west, but PTCG was not developed with rotation in mind...until 2019 technically. Creatures creates cards primarily with the Japanese format in mind (think "OCG" vs. "TCG"), and set rotation was formally implemented only recently in 2019 with the start of Sword & Shield. Before, they were basically soft rebooting the game every couple of series, similar to what Cardfight!! Vanguard does as well as supporting multiple constructed formats at once, which means that the legal card pool was often much larger and static for longer than a normal rotating format.
My 2¢ as a magic player who has played Modern Mtg for many years, and got into Yugioh about a year ago: I think rotation is a fantastic solution for what Joshua sees as the issues to modern Yugioh, and am quite frankly surprised Konami never took after Magic and set up a rotation on their own. However, that being said, I absolutely love the insulated world Yugioh lives in apart from almost all other TCGs. I play Yugioh specifically for handtraps, floodgates, 1-card full negation boards, consistent turn 2 OTKs, and of course, a non-rotating format that everyone plays. Is it perfect? No, but no card game is. I want Yugioh to stay non-rotating for selfish reasons, because if I wanted a different pace of play, I’d just play a different game (of which there are many now, both digital and in paper!)
The fact that Yu-gi-oh is so chaotic is what makes me love it. We play the game because we like the power fantasy. If you want a TCG with set rotation and different formats then go play literally any other game. I just know that if Yu-Gi-Oh gets a set rotation format and it gets bigger than the OG format is when I drop out, the uniqueness will simply be gone.
@@sammydray5919 That it doesn't have set rotation. That it has only one official format and an unpredictable banlist that keeps the formats engaging. The ability to use any card ever printed as long as it's legal to formulate or strengthen both new and old strategies. The crazy power level and interactivity duels can have. And the most important aspect to me is the feeling of community that isn't scattered into a million other formats.
@@amaskeddude There is always a scattered community. Dont pretend that ain't the case. There are folks who will never play modern because the pace and power creep seems too much. There are folks who are too invested in certain old formats and dont bother with current game. There are pet deckers who refuse to evolve their decks and would rather complain and whine that it doesn't work well anymore. There is a serious divide between casual and meta players because casual decks just cannot keep up at all despite the nostalgia support these decks get sometimes. Then there is a section of potential people who simply get into the game because the game is way too bloated now and there is just way too much stuff to keep track of for new players. Master duel's bombastic launch and later it losing so many players already shows that there are so many potential new players that might be interested in yugioh (even if they are casual) but the game in its current state is just not good for anyone new to jump in. Also I hate how people speak of old cards being relevant again as if its all positive even though apart from a couple of exceptions, most of the cards that get relevant again are in a negative way. As even Joshua highlighted multiple times in this video floodgates like Anti-Spell, Skill Drain, Gozen, Rivalry and even shit like Soul Drain and Necrovalley just make games miserable and will be better off gone for good from the game. Why did Aqua Dolphin see play in Isolde decks? To rip out handtraps to insulate your bullshit combo which was mostly gumblar hand loop at the time. Why was smoke grenade played in infernoble knights? Because it allowed the deck to easily hand loop your opponent. Why did Wind barrier statue become relevant? Because certain decks can consistently bring it out and lock the opponent out from playing the game. Why is Instant Fusion so strong? Because modern cards absolutely break it. Apart from some exceptions like book of moon and enemy controller, old cards coming back has never been really a net positive for the health of the game so I am getting tired of people bringing up that novelty as if it doesn't lead to anything wrong. Set rotation doesn't mean that any of the positives you mentioned will be gone. If people wanna play current style yugioh they can always default back to the eternal format which WILL most definitely exist because Konami isn't stupid and will realise that supporting it will be good source of financial income for them on top of a standard format. People always complain that the player base will shrink due to multiple formats but never factor in the overall increase in players once the game gets easier to get in.
This is where I disagree with you, Josh. I don't think set rotation is healthy because people love playing rogue decks like, myself. @2:55, you basically explain in a nutshell that we have power creep which inadvertently creates a set rotation anyway, but in that aspect I can still play my wrote deck if I want to wear as a set rotation I cannot. Yes it's true, you can make other formats however even now where we have Master dual and ocg, I still feel like I'm out of the loop because I played thunder dragon and I don't have my full arsenal. I know it's frustrating too faced many different Dex if you're competitive player but there are some competitive players like myself that enjoy a very diverse format. If anything we need to make a format that meets issues halfway for everyone.
I play both magic and yugioh. The community in magic isn’t really split. Most players play multiple formats. Standard, modern, pioneer, and commander are some of the more popular ones. There’s also a lot of fun formats like pauper (common cards only) that are less competitive but still very popular. A lot of players will buy cards for both standard, and modern, and also commander. Each of those formats uses a lot of different cards, the speed and nuances are different in each so it’s common that players play all of them, which actually ends up with wotc making more money overall, and the players have more fun. If you get sick of modern you start focusing on standard, and vice versa. There’s never an opportunity to take a break from the game, you just take a break from the format instead.
As a follow up, here’s what usually happens for new players: You start with standard because it’s the slowest and simplest format, you don’t have to learn thirty thousand cards, only like a couple hundred (the viable ones). You get more familiar with the mechanics of the game and branch out into older formats with much larger and larger card pools. You end up playing legacy, legacy cubes, or commander. These are all eternal formats where all cards are legal, aside from the ones on the banlist. I think yugioh would end up working the same way. We would get new packs with cards exclusively for the eternal formats, and other cards that are in the standard rotation sets are legal in both standard and the eternal formats. Usually the standard cards aren’t great in eternal formats, but sometimes they are, even eternal format players in magic look forward to standard sets and look for the hidden gems that are playable in eternal formats (there’s always a few)
@@easyygo3008 That issue is with how Konami supports their formats, imo. None of the main events at any event are anything but Advanced. Like, in MTG, if you go to Worlds, you often have to play multiple formats in the same tournament. There will be a draft portion, and then top 8 will be one of the main constructed formats. Stuff like that happens all the time. If you go to a major MTG event, you will be playing whatever format is run at that event if you're playing in the main event. If you go to a YCS, you will be playing Advanced in the main event. Period. There are side events playing other formats, but if you want to play competitively, you have one format to choose from. That really hurts people's perceptions of the alternative formats. It makes them all feel unofficial, or casual. That feeling of "speed duels is a casual format" contributes to people not caring about it. As the OP said, in MTG's case, it doesn't even really split the playerbase. MTG makes it clear that most of their major formats matter, and as such, if you decide tomorrow to start playing Modern, you're not going to feel like you're playuing a weird, side version of MTG. I don't know YGO well enough to argue anything further than that, but I feel like "format that Konami marketed as a casual format didn't perform well" is not an argument against set rotation being a thing. This is not me necessarily even arguing in favor of set rotation in YGO. I am too new to the game to have an opinion on that that I could actually defend. But I think only seeing set rotation from the context of YGO exactly as it is played now, but with less cards, is just not what set rotation actually would be. They'd have to restructure events and change the way they design cards and sets as a whole. Is that actually a good idea? Is it worth investing the R&D resources into something like that that has the potential to backfire if mishandled? Honestly, it's probably not. But if Konami did implement set rotation, it wouldn't be "you can play this at side events but all the real competition is in Advanced." They would... actually market it and attempt to make it a thing. Because set rotation would be a much more "all-in" change to YGO design than Speed Duels existing off to the side would be.
@@easyygo3008 tf are you talking about? Edison is officially supported now and the Edison tables at the last YCS had more players than the modern formats
I think the only realistic counter argument towards set rotation is that Konami will probably fuck it up lmao Also they way they're laughing that you have to find out what Set you're playing, as if you won't find AGES in advance anyway, as if it's no different to waiting for an Updated Banlist to know what you can or can't play I actually feel so bad for MBT in this lmao he's actually spitting SO MANY FACTS
I know right and Farfa is flip-flopping between this it feels. Honestly many problems people claim would come from this are ones we already have heck it'd probably fix more problems. But yugioh players have stockhold syndrome from Konami
The issue with using Konami will fuck it up as an argument is that it applies to any solution to any problem the game has, making any discussion pointless
in a way, Konami tried reeling in the power creep of the game with Master Rule 4 and the introduction of Links, but it created a paywall for the game and not a proper solution-an example of how they actually fucked it up. As cool as Links are, they should have done set rotation too.
One thing that the people talking about splitting the community don’t understand is that the people playing ONLY legacy or ONLY commander or ONLY standard, _wouldn’t be playing any other format either way._ I’ve been playing on and off magic since 2004 and I’ve never played standard, if there was no commander i wouldn’t have every returned to it either way. Having more formats only give people more options of things they could enjoy, someone that doesn’t like current ygo _could_ enjoy a rotating ygo, like the people who play duel links. You are not losing players by having more formats, current players are not forced to play a rotating format just like they are not forced to play duel links, it’s the same thing, you are just _gaining new potential players._
Nah miss me with that - 1. konami has to do it right - they banned Kit (and merrli) - I dont trust them with anything 2. it would mean that most of the stuff you play is topped down by konami - you can play these archetypes - no not that one, pick one of these so what if I dont want to play these decks? Do I just quit and wait till something comes out that sounds like fun? Surely not the best of ideas... 3. Link summoned to that zone is: pet decks - i do play meta sure - but mostly I want to play old random ass rouge* decks - and now being told that you cant do that would hurt me and probably many others as well. 4. Creativity - again we let konami descide what techs we can play - you wont see Dawnstar level shit anymore - and for many crazy bad shit non sense is how they enjoy the game and there are many who enjoy this typ of content being produced. 5. Money - now people will tell me, oh now you also need to rebuy your decks, cause banlist and power creep - yes but the big difference would be vuluntarily buying new powerful cards and HAVING to buy new cards, cause the old ones are Illegal.
I came back to paper-ygo the moment master duel dropped. Before that i played 4 years of magic the gathering starting by playing standard format working my way back in time to play modern format. There are definitly some benefits about set rotation but in retrospect i really hate rotation. Every single set as the potention to shake up the meta in a way to make your deck irrelevant. "But its the same in YGO!" Yes but the cards you bought don't expire after 1-2 years. There are so many cards in my staple box from that time that cost me over 10€/copy that will never see any play in any format ever again. This fact dropped their price to cents... Yes you should bring old decks to compeditiv events in YGO if you want to win. But if you want you can. The point about different format at a YCS event is really something that annoyed the shit out of me with magic events. The way they structured it you have to play all these formats to compete at a compeditive level. You have to play shit like draft/standard/modern/sealed/teamevents all that bullshit at the same time. I can't be informed or even interested in that many formats at the same time, how would i even come close to optimising all of these at the same time... Also maybe you are in a position where you cant travel far for events and the ycs that is finaly close enough to you is a format you hate. In mtg they don't do more tournaments because of the different formats they just rotate through the formats with no extra tournaments. I hope rotation will never be a thing in YGO with standard sets. Just use Timewizard formats or stuff like speed duel for that. I couldn't care less if there is rotation in speed duel but leave real ygo alone.
I have a similar problem with Rotation. And i played a lot of Magic and Pokemon (and Heartstone) and all had rotation. I hate it And they don't even fixed the Powercreep of the game. In pokemon we got some mons that put old staples to shame. The game is getting more and more bonkers WITH rotation (and a friend said to me Magic is the same. Some cards now shitstomps some broken old cards, but idk, i dropped Magic 10y ago)
those issues are valid, and I don't think to slap just rotation would be good for yugioh. but I think yugioh is in dire need to refresh the cardpool, at least for alternative constructed format, time wizard are nice, but the static cardpool is one thing that make it not so refreshing
@@comettcg8830 True. It is a real shame they do not support alternative formats. They talked about it, ok... that's cool... i guess, but only talking about is not really supporting it. It could be something cool if someone was in charge of TimeWizard with Banlists and Adding/Removing cards from different old sets. Without it is just be "here's the format, now do whatever while we big bois think about the real deal"
Counter point: Kash is ass, even with all its names at 3 and Tear still tops over 2 years after all but one of its major pieces got banned or limited. The issue arises when only when something is so heavily overtuned that it hurts the rest of the format.
While I would not mind a Set Rotation, Yugioh has a lot of inherent issues with its card design philosophy that would make it hard to implement. The biggest example of this would be fundamentally changing how product release works, shifting the main sets from being 80-90 new cards to the format to being 300-400 select cards that happen to include new cards and reprints alike. And with that shift in product, they'd need to rethink archetypes and legacy support as a whole since they'd need to reprint the bulk of entire archetypes should they want to release new Legacy Support, which honestly feels like it'd be easy to mess up. Really, it's the named archetype focus Yugioh has that makes Set Rotation awkward to implement
MtG manages to come up with 10 new archetypes for draft essentially every format, and has their cards interact neatly within their archetype or multiple archetypes, gimmicks, and other strategies. I think Yugioh could manage to reprint a few names when they reintroduce an archetype. EDIT: this comment is a bit hyperbolic w.r.t. MtG, but the general point still stands: MtG's cards have to work together, and they tend to require far more than just a shared name to do so. If Yugioh needs to reprint names, that can be accomplished with relatively little thought.
@@delta3244 mtg's archetype isnt as hard locked as it is in ygo. in ygo an archetype pretty much only works with itself with a few spots for a small engine while magic is more generic which makes it easier to mix match stuff
@@skywardking7798 My rather poorly-expressed point is that MtG R&D manages to put together proper, coherent/synergistic archetypes frequently and reliably _without_ the crutch of looking up cards containing "xyz" in their name. If one can do that, it makes reforming old archetypes _easier,_ not harder. (minor edit)
@@delta3244 people often point to mtg as a set rotation that works while trying to avoid all other tcg that tried to do rotation that died. Card rotation wouldn't just require a good r&d team that develop cards but also a fan base willing to spend the money for those cards. And in terms of ygo one thing that separate it from other card games is archetype and specifically archetype loyalty from a player base. Each of the more well known archetype has a fan base that would only play that one deck and only that deck for all eternity and would be happy just mixing staples around as long as they can play the deck. Having set rotation would literally drive all those fanbases away from playing at all cuz let's face it not all of konami's archetype are equal sometimes ya get sprights and other times ya get ghoti.
I just don't see how we can't accomplish the same things as a set rotation with our current ban list format. We can easily have maxx c off the list for 2 -3 banlists just like we did recently with fairy tale snow. We could have a format where extrav or duality are the only legal pot cards for half the year and desires or prosperity for the latter half.
Because there are cards that are not good enough to be banned, but limit diversity. Apolousa, Baronne, Acces Code. These are not really problem cards, but many decks choose to rather make these cards instead of something in archatype. Also there are cards that are really bad, so they will never be banned, like Ido, Ra's discipline, Gimmick Puppet Nightmare, but if you can give it your opponent, you win the game, thus they promote toxic gameplay.
@@trokolisz3702 Well, OP is saying that konami is able to ban those cards you mentioned, not for their power level, rather for the sake of promoting diversity. Different cards can go on and off the banlist to create pseudo set rotation
@@trokolisz3702 yeah so put them on the banlist and then if we want a format where we want to play them take them off. It accomplishes the same thing. It could even be another format, just the "past 2 years" thing seems so arbitrary
For me, the biggest problem with Set Rotation isn't necessarily that the concept itself as an accompanying format to Advanced wouldn't help the longevity of the game but because, let's be real, Konami is too dogshit of a company to implement it in a way that would work. People are already weary of how expensive the game is in the TCG due to Konami's predatory rarity upscaling, can you imagine if they rotated every few formats and people had to spend that much money to play? Hell no it would kill the game. For me, the only way set rotation could even be viable is if Konami TCG would implement the Pokemon TCG's printing policy and drastically reduce the cost of the game for it to be viable. I'd gladly be ok having an alternative format that sucks up a lot of resources such as a "Standard Format" if it meant the decks costed ~50-100 dollars and you probably had to change decks every 6 months to a year. But they're a greedy capitalist corporation so we all know that won't happen.
One of the reasons why yugioh is so expensive to get into is because the good generic staples and boss monsters are always in high demand so they usually have a high price while some cards are ridiculously expensive because of their rarity and lack of reprints. Set rotation could help with price aspect because eventually the most popular cards will be rotated out thus lowering their demand and make them more affordable and the sets can include some old cards too so that could help with reprints as well. Depending on how they are handled the set rotation can help with card design too as cards then wouldn't have to constantly competing with old power houses. Kinda like how any new level 10 synchro has to immediately contest itself against Barone and has to be power crept to actually see play at all. Like how since Accesscode exists in the fomat any link 4 has to contest with it and even Appollusa. Eternal format is the reason why power creep of the game is in a state that newer cards and sets are FORCED to be stupid good or they'll never see play. Of course power creep can still happen as that is completely dependent on the development team but in a rotating format the power level xan atleast be brought down over time without resorting to banning cards in most cases.
@@sammydray5919 im all in agreeance with you it’s just that wouldn’t happen because it’s predicated off the fact Lonami would print stuff too in an accessible manner
@@sammydray5919 Ok instead thanks to Set rotation generously limiting our options of budget alternatives we now have to shell out full price for the new Handtrap or Boardbreaker every set. MtG and Pokemon both move a ton of product via alternate means such as draft or collectors. Yugioh mostly has people cracking packs directly to use or sell cards so supply never beats demand.
@@joshcruzat3112 They would have to because they wouldn't want the game to die. The reason why Konami get away with being so lackluster is because Yugioh is a one format game and they can do whatever they want as long as they make sure to kill the current problem deck that would prevent sales of new cards or just killing the game entirely. Set rotation needs more active approach so Konami would have no choice but to actually step up their game because they obviously wouldn't want their biggest cash cow to die. Set rotation inherently can work, Konami would just have to improve and they can really. Like a couple of years ago the game was nothing but solitaire to set up the full negate board while recent meta decks barring kashtira have been focusing on interaction and resources instead of boring negates. Even Kashtira while boring doesn't really negate. Konami and their approach to the game can improve as they have shown. They just dont have much incentive right now
I think they can simply keep things as is but support tournaments for older formats. They can simply say ok archetypes that are above X set can't be played, emphasis on archetypes. You can still play support for older archetypes and stand alone power cards, revitalizing the format in that way. Then go from there to make a banlist. I don't want to see everything Divided into sets and have this confusion that magic has were you would see a card pick a card now you have to find in which format it can be played to play on said queue. Or make a deck then see that it can't be played and try to find the one card that doesn't work. If I wanted that feeling, I can simply code.
The pricing point I don't think is true, cuz I've played games with rotation like this. In YGO, staples DO retain value for like fucking forever, honestly. Only when there's a super accessible reprint like in a Structure Deck do they actually plummet in value, but by that time you probably got its value and then some. In Pokemon, where imo there are way less demand for competitive compared to YGO by some miles, the card pool that's actually good changes so drastically per rotation that you pretty much have to buy a new deck every single set. Even though immediately it's cheap to make a Pokemon deck (also their ratios are way better, and their alt arts usurp all the price, which is a nuance that is heavily missed here that YGO needs to look into copying), because the set rotation literally sets the value of your previous deck to literal cents, it's way costly to upkeep. At least in YGO, I can work with less optimal staples, but the side deck usually stays similar and common cards often getting cheaper alternatives, and extra deck mons also stay relevant for a while once they're just the best in that slot. Around half the deck doesn't cost me anything if I plan on playing for years. You just don't get that in other card games Don't even get me started on digital shit though. In those, your old cards aren't even worth cents, and you'll be lucky if they can at least let you just disintegrate the cards you've grown attached to. It's not a clean cut subject, even in little points like this. I don't mind set rotation but I hate it when people just mention it without realizing that it's not just some obviously better thing. I played too many different TCGs to know there are some ghastly periods entirely caused by rotation and nothing else. Vanguard has the occasional reset button rotation in which the new format ranges from literally killed the game to saved the entire game. Pokemon has the chunk rotation with the lettering on the bottom left, with D just getting rotated out recently, which killed the top deck of the format and the 2nd best deck losing nothing. Shadowverse has the set by set rotation but hilariously in that game, the most recent 1-2 sets are the only ones that end up mattering, and they're currently in a 2 deck format that sucks balls, even though back when I played the most, it was really interesting and diverse. People can say, oh, those games just do set rotation badly. Like... do they not consider a situation where YGO implements set rotation badly? Even MTG has really really really bad set rotation to the point where their most popular format is freaking commander, which I think really hurt the competitive scene, as cool as it is. I don't want people to pretend the first things that doesn't come out of people's mouths right now in the MTG circle the moment you say the word "constructed" is like "oh yeah that format..."
There are also bad eternal formats. So counterargument: having set rotation and eternal as seperate formats reduces the odds of there being no sanctioned format which one does not want to play.
@@delta3244 Yeah I hear the existence of separate formats every other post. I'd like for them to point to any card game that actually made that work long term. Vanguard is the only one I can think of where Standard and Premium are both played. Now that's a fun story. Lemme tell you in a very short form what actually happened: The first 3 sets of their 3rd hard rotation reset were so fucking boring with a mechanic that basically ruined the game by making already lost games... un-lost by pure RNG, that the entirety of JP basically boycotted Standard for 3-5 sets, which basically recorded some of the worst sales they've ever had. Bushiroad, the devs of Vanguard, stuck with it and picked it back up somewhat like 3 sets later, but it's still a largely hated format. Premium is the preferred format, but JP players were forced by Bushiroad to play Standard because almost all of the new cards were Standard support, and these cards were usually too weak to be used by Premium. They have to sell new packs somehow, cuz Premium format hasn't budged in a while. So now the players are kinda stuck with it, and Vanguard has seen its biggest plunge to potential death, if not for their previous record of sticking with Premium, which went through the same phase for its first 5-6 sets, where the game nearly died Even if they manage to salvage current Standard format, they'll most likely work with the understanding that every time they rotate out a format, they're looking at about a year of loss at minimum, 2 years on average. If they didn't have their anime and their initial success, they don't survive as a card game. But as you can see, running multiple formats isn't what it's cracked up to be. YGO is actually attempting it with Rush Duel, which is basically the type of hard reset that fans seem to want, and it's decently successful, but ultimately, it's forever labelled a side format. You just cannot have 2 main formats. A lot of players get alienated by splitting formats in every single example where it has happened. MTG included. I hate it when MTG's long history of ups and downs get forgotten about
@@monkeylemur MtG, Hearthstone. MtG's multiple formats in particular have been cited as one of the best things about the game ever since players got used to the idea. As for the Vanguard example and how it demonstrates that "running multiple formats isn't what it's cracked up to be," you have described a situation where there was effectively just one format. So, good job demonstrating that having multiple formats isn't necessarily a benifit games can reliably get for free, you can certainly make a strong arugment out of that, but... no to the argument you did make? You cannot claim that 'having multiple formats was the problem' after stating that the problem was that only one format could be played in practice. MtG has had Standard as "the primary format" for a long time, but that has never stopped the majority of the playerbase from prefering a different one, e.g. modern, commander. "A lot of people get alienated by splitting formats..." - good point. Counterpoint: a lot of new players get alienated from Yugioh by its complexity, speed, and/or learning curve, and the presence of an officially sanctioned format with a limited cardpool and simpler interactions could mitigate that to the point where new players ultimately replace the old players lost to rotation. If that happens, it's overall positive, because games need to reliably attract new players to survive indefinitely. Alternative counterpoint: people kept getting upset at new summoning mechanics in Yugioh. People just complain about change, this is not a fact unique to introducing set rotation. See MtG's history for many examples of people complaining and saying "the game is now dead" in all kinds of different situations, to the point where there are multiple saterical videos and articles dedicated to the topic, including Wizard's "Twenty Things that were going to Kill Magic" released in 20th aniversery week magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/twenty-things-were-going-kill-magic-2013-08-01. That's at least one fatal threat to MtG per year! See so-called Yugiboomers for similar takes. It is worth noting that the introduction of standard produced the largest upcry over those 20 years, and it's also worth noting that it worked. There's merit to your point that set rotation alienates players, but there's also merit to mine that set rotation can solve problems.
@@delta3244 MTG and HS are the 2 biggest card games in existence for physical and virtual card games respectively. The only reason they can make it work (and only barely at times), is because of their huge size and nostalgia factor. Every single other card game has struggled or busted with rotation. The reason why MTG and HS do rotation formats is not for balance or the playerbase, it's specifically because they can afford to incentevice and demand that the players buy new product regularly to keep up, because they have such a huge player base. Rarely can other card games support that.
@@Yous0147 Pokemon also does it, of course it's popular. Yugioh is very popular and has been around for quite a while. MtG introduced rotation for the sake of powering down the game. I'm _fairly_ sure Hearthstone did so as well, but I'm not too familiar with that game's history - I can look this up, if you'd like. EDIT: "of course Pokemon is popular" was not intended to imply "...because of set rotation." It does somewhat because of how I wrote it, ignore that. I am not trying to say Pokemon's card game is popular because of set rotation.
There's a point around the 47 minute mark about the burden of knowledge new players have for getting into the game. And I've been definitely feeling that lately. And man the crazy part about this game is that so many cards so 'go fetch a card' either add or send or special and to properly judge these cards you need to be familiar with the targets. Basically every Extra Deck monster is the same way(I think in this way generic boss monsters are at least helpful at shrinking this list down) Then there's a pile of traps(mostly only against those set 5 decks) and hand traps you need to learn. Then there's a ton of little ruling and edge cases to learn. So much to dig into that just isn't printed on the cards on field.
I know this is 8 months old, but I wholeheartedly agree. I've been playing this game since the very beginning and still struggle with this simply because you can't just know the card, you have to know the deck, the targets etc. Every deck is like 40 cards, 3 effects each with insane lawyerspeak effects and with multiple lines of play. It's like having to learn the game almost from zero and memorizing it until it's mostly muscle memory to enjoy the deck properly. I struggle with picking up new decks because every new deck is a lot of learning and practice until I get comfortable enough to actually get to "play". So I often stick to decks I'm comfortable with already instead of exploring other options.
I would love to see a Yugituber look at discussions for the creation of Type 2 for MtG. It's no coincidence that so many long-lasting TCGs have rotating formats.
@@negate-07 So you missed the "long lasting" part of the comment? Most TCGs don't/didn't have a rotation format because they were discontinued before it became feasible.
The other Great part of Set Rotation is that Generic Staples receive regular REPRINTS keeping the game accesible. For example, Pokémon constantly reprints useful cards like Ultra Ball, and Professor’s Research. Including designing stunningly beautiful Full Art/ Alternate art designs which hold their value regardless of how many reprints the card of that name gets. If Pokémon Were Yu-Gi-Oh! Professor’s Research (discard your hand draw 7) would have had 1 secret rare short print a year ago which would mean only people willing to invest 700 dollars in the game can access it, gate keeping casual play and creating an unfair power imbalance against new or less wealthy players. If AA - Zeus is still meta relevant but it’s going out of rotation next set, that means Konami would need to print a new AA- Zeus in the next set to allow players to keep using it. Maybe even being printed as a common, because let’s be honest. It’s one of the most played cards of all time it’s like the center space in a game of bingo. The failure of Yu-Gi-OH up until this point has been refusing to differentiate between cards for collecting and cards with gaming utility. I hope this next set represents Yugioh finally diversifying the Rarity options in the TCG and offering multiple rarities of the same card in each card set so that capitalist pigs can play their starlight prospy’s and the game can grow and be embraced by new generations for kids who can play their uncommon pot of prosperities.
My issue with set rotation is that the company dictates what you play, what staples you have access to, and what sets you can choose your card pool from. This would mean that the out-of-nowhere decks and pile decks that were NOT on the radar would disappear. Secret techs would die.
You described a banlist there. Set rotation is making a second format not replacing the only one we have. People acting like every game that has Rotation doesn't also have Non-rotation as a format, with people playing 30 year old cards in it.
@@Heoltor No. A banlist is specifically to dissalow game breaking cards. They're not to dictate which cards you play, in fact, you never see old but lower powered cards being excluded to dictate what people play, it's to dictate a level playing field. Every card game with rotation, has its non-rotation counterpart suffer because newer released cards are designed with rotation in mind and end up breaking non rotation formats. No one wants to play a broken format, so it's either dealing with it, dealing with rotation or bust.
I like that random old cards can be played again. For example I bought exosis stuff after being out and I found some/most of my highschool cards that werent worth selling when I quit And I had necrovalley and secret villages.
But that can still exist with rotation. Konami knows those cards exist and work with the Exosister strat; all that has to happen is for those cards to be printed within the rotation of Exosister. Rotation happens on a rolling clock, not in blocks
@@d33pw3115 wouldn't work for decks like Zombies, Dinos, Earth Machine, Cyberse pile etc. Set rotation will require Konami not only to more actively engage with their game, but also completely restructure their card and archetype design.
@@kindlingking but that’s the thing. They probably will. Cards that are staples to overarching play patterns will have a good chance of seeing reprints in rotation blocks. Splash Mage, Fossil Dig, and whatever else you can think of aren’t guaranteed to get reprinted, but if Konami deems them important enough to and think they are integral to retaining the playerbase then they likely will.
As a rogue player, The cool thing about mitigating power creep with set rotation is your old decks can still compete with the new decks in the non-rotating format because the power level has stayed relatively the same.
I'm curious, have you experienced this or are you suggesting it as an idea? From what I see, not in MTG, neither in Pokemon is this true. New cards are always better than older cards, with or without rotation.
@@Yous0147 the lifespan of a deck in modern/vintage etc is significantly longer than the lifespan of a deck in a standard set. The only big thing that has shaken up modern drastically was modern horizons, a set that got huge flack for being nothing but powercreep and illiciting bans. Even so you still have pet decks everywhere. Goblins, Tron, Elves, Delver, affinity, dredge etc have been decks forever and will continue to be. Haven't played pokemon so idk what it's like over there
Floodgates being in the game is not the fault of lack of Set Rotation. Konami can still set rotate and then print new floodgates. Truth of the matter is Konami wants and is okay with floodgates being in the game. If they hated it, they could easily ban every single competitively viable floodgates. I would have definitely did that if I was in charge of the TCG banlist, just ban any card that could create unfun unskillful no games. And in regards to set rotation making the game cheaper, that's not true. As much as people hate me for saying this, Yugioh cards being expensive is the proof that people care about this game and that this game is very successful. Everytime Konami puts a new product, people eat it up like candy and there is a lack of products on the market despite demand being huge so the prices go crazy. A lot of failing TCGs and businesses in general reduce their prices of their products because there is too much product on the market that they thought would sell but isn't selling at all so in a desperate attempt to cut losses they reduce the prices.
This felt like overhearing a bunch of 10 year olds trying to argue with their physics teacher about the merits and disadvantages of nuclear energy. HOLY SHIT are coder, farfa and gage clueless.
The problem is with what has been found in MTG, is that set rotation / multiple formats has substaintially diluted the pool for each format in the form of taking players. This becomes a problem for competitive integrity, and then it snowballs into loss of players. MTG for example was fine (somewhat) with standard, modern, legacy. But then wizard's smart assess decided to include commander and pioneer. This has made standard, the premier format intially for the last two years, is now having a miniscule playrate, pioneer is basically dead, and legacy doesn't get reprints along with modern, so it's exspensive af because Yugioh does what MTG does not -> print cards multiple times in different rarities. The other argument is where you talk about the price being LESS in standard than yugioh's current design. In rotation, decks are sure, cheaper because the cards themselves are "weaker", but when we toss this back to the other formats where cards compete against EVERY card made in the game the last 20 years, it makes a card triple the price if it's being competed for due to demand, so unless we print out a crazy amount of the card, it'll be damaging for older and newer players alike, but then we ask a budget player to update staple rares ON TOP OF THIS ALL, and we actually make them shell out much, much more, so it's absolutely cap that it's the opposite, as it's been analyzed in every cardgame known with a rotation. It'll only make the rotation 2-year format have slightly less cost temporarily, until the cards are good enough to be played in the eternal formats / legacy. This will in turn, make it so that Konami most likely would print less older cards, meaning it'll be more expensive on the older formats as well, causing a chain-reaction forever, permanently damaging cost-effectiveness of your spending. It doesn't matter if it's slightly lower cost for your rotation temporarily, we will get more problems with flawed card design / careful design to prevent powercreep, overall cost increase substantially etc.
My problem is somewhat similar, though, from a different lens. Konami hasn't officially supported a single alternative format in YGO since its creation; in the past 25 years, we've only had a singular format for the game. If YGO gets set rotation, Konami would only support "Standard", so using the argument that "MTG has other officially supported formats, so Konami would to" is extremely weak. And this is despite the hunger for alternative formats in YGO is growing. Personally, I play old archetypes that absolutely don't get reprints, like Noble Knights, Darklords, Gravekeepers, and some others. So, telling me I can't play them in even a locals makes me completely disinterested in the game. It's one of the reasons why I absolutely refuse to play Pokemon and despise MTG.
"there's record attendance now why risk that?", well what if set rotation makes attendance even better, this episode is painful because of so many different trash takes
44:40 yeah I don't know the history of MTG rotation but with hearthstone it's pretty simple. After a few years there were a handful of generic cards (no deck building requirement) that were just better than every other card at their mana cost, so they rotated them out so they could make cards people actually wanted to try using. Both HS and MTG also use a core set for each rotation in addition to the expansions that come out. The core set usually has a bunch of necessary staples like removal and card draw, tech cards, and archetype specific cards to reopen that design space.
Standard is not the main magic format lmao, that format sucks balls. Commander is the most popular format now, which is basically 100 of your favorite cards the deck.
I mean I don’t get how people wouldn’t want rotation. The Battle Phase, Trap cards, Pendulums and Tuners are all mechanics that barely matter as of now.
Pretty easy... they dont know the concept . Everything that came out of gage and coder was ignorant. Coder basically gave points FOR rotation. Gage is just a Konami sl*ve to be fair. Every take he has everything he does is licking konamis shoes so no surprise there. If konami says tomorow that they make a new rotation format gage will be the first one saying how great the idea seems to be. Coder just didnt do his research thats all. He is not stupid he is just lazy and arrogant..
??? All of them matter. Kashtira has Battle Phase effects. Trap Cards are frequently seen, with two archetypes that support Trap Cards making up meta decks together with those Trap Cards. Tuners are found in rogue and Tier 2 decks, as are Pendulum Monsters. Superheavy Samurai will have its support soon, and it uses both.
The battle phase does matter…? Kashtira has battle phase effects. Labyrinth is a top deck right now, a whole trap card. Pendulums? Shs is breaking them in the ocg rn. Tuners are useless? This just… doesn’t make any sense
@@megaspacewaffles dont forget imperm and evenly matched!! Trap cards are all over the place. Why print more trap cards we just play those 10 everyone plays and the rest can just rest in piece as soon as they are printed.
@@Pkey995 not true. A lot of archtypes get solid trap cards. Volcanic just got a really good one. I’m certain we’ll keep getting good traps. Like there are entire decks dedicated to traps
My favorite format for Yu-Gi-Oh! was BA/Shaddoll/Qli/Satellarknights - there was room for combos and the game could end on any one turn but there was also so much interruption that you just had to manage resources.
Set rotation may be a good idea for the game. My biggest issue is Konami is still designing cards today that do not adhere to logical card design rules: Hard once per turn. Cards with a few effects. Banlist incorporation. Archetype locked cards. A lot of these are absent. Konami is extremely bad at balancing cards, and not necessarily due to powercreep because they will release old archetype support that are either dog water, a nice evolution, or absolutely cracked. The variance is extremely high and you can easily tell which ones are designed well and which ones they didn't put 5 minutes into the design for it. Also, the game was in a healthy, logically evolving state, and Konami released Pendulum which should've been its own game. And now we have to live with it to either be subpar trash or completely and utterly broken. They even released Links with a restriction on how Extra decks could be utilized before Konami walked it back with the current Master Rules. And take a look at Rush Duels and its popularity. Konami is throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks or loses committment to growing pains. All of these issues with set rotations are definitely resolved by simplifying card text and setting an upper limit of power and design cards for their particular archetype. But I don't think Konami is capable of handling it. They aren't going to be able to handle set rotation and they're going to break the game by not understanding where their cards should be tuned. Or it would take years to appropriately adjust before it can really take off that I think they're going to walk back and appeal to their players... when they listen (but when do they ever?)
Konami is the most anti-consumer. Deaf. Contemptuous towards their customer company. Them and gamefreak are run by semi-literate cocaine addicted chimpanzees.
I mean, that's just how you see balancing, so of course Konami is not good at YOUR idea of balancing. I really like soft once per turn for example. I rather my card have weaker effects that I can find ways to activate multiple times then to have one big effect and thats it. Also, I like cards with multiple effects. Proof that konami game desing isnt as bad as you think is the longevity of the game. Just look at other card games... Hearthstone now has less than 1/10th of the playerbase it once had (if not less), and they follow almost all of the design notes you suggest. I think saying that konami doesn't "adhere to logical card design rules" is inherently wrong. There is no formula for a good design, only what you like and what you don't like
The only issue I have with set rotation is the idea of split events. I live in the worst area imaginable for Yu-Gi-Oh. Thus say I’m a extended player but the only event going on close enough that I can travel to I’d standard I’m kinda fucked.
I stopped playing both pokemon and MTG because of set rotation. Specially in MTG, singles were too expensive; like kashtira on release expensive, then the format rotated and my deck was unplayable so I thought to play commander only to find out that it's even more expensive, so it wasn't really on my best interest to keep playing.
Yeah it’s called the 2 year curse it’s a very common issue with TCGs they just have set rotation because well you gotta be like magic and the game dies 2 years later because the early adopters see there money wasted when the format rotates and are forced to shell out for a deck deck
Watching chat during this episode hurts. Thank you stream chat, for summarizing how rotation works and why Magic the Gathering is capable of retaining old players AND onboarding new ones.
Also literally every argument chat presents against rotation is exactly solved by HOW ROTATION WORKS. Our current format, "Advanced", becomes Magic's equivalent of "Legacy". Even the ban list for Advanced can stay. For the love of fucking god ROTATION IS ITS OWN FORMAT. IT IS ADJACENT TO THE CURRENT STANDARD FORMAT, NOT A REPLACEMENT.
after hearing everyone else's opinions on set rotation i understand why MBT said it was the last one lol, saying set rotation prevents X from being played is stupid, they just have to reprint whatever they intend the players to play.
Yeah with a rotation even if they reprint some old cards in a set to promote new support for 3 set time frame that they have until all those cards aren't legal again, I'm still locked into that archtype. What if I'm not interested in any of the archtypes that's out but the ones I am interested in that works for my play style is no longer legal for competitive play?
I've seen a couple videos about power creep in the Pokemon TCG to try and keep things fresh bc set rotation isn't enough to keep interest. This isn't a solution to power creep, ultimately it boils down to good and ineresting design/decks but even then it's rough.
@@delta3244My entire point is that it isn't a panacea. W/O set rotation Konami has done a bad job with designing sets that go way too far and they are far too hesitant to bring down the ban hammer. With set rotation they still need to carefully manage reprints and fine tune new cards to avoid the same problems. Fan favorite decks always introduce the risk that you'll make something accidentally OP elsewhere. Regardless of the path, good design and a clear vision are key.
Also Magic has been getting really power crept in the last few years, we are atlking that if your deck can't win on turn 3 or 4 then the deck is just not good enough, that wasn't a thing not even that long ago, also you can't tell me MTG isn't Power Crept when stuff like Ragavan exist.
Pokemon is the prime example of how a rotation can curb the power level of a format. The X and Y block was notorious for being too fast and focused on big basic and simply releasing the sun and moon era sets wont fix the balance (case in point expanded), the post rotation SuMo on format was slower amd more skill based with decks like zoro control and stuff.
That’s the thing though: if Dinowrestlers got rotated out, that would mean bye bye Pankratops since it’s a Dinowrestler. Cards like Accesscode, Barrone, and Feather Duster would all be out too if Code Talkers, Fleur, and Harpies got rotated out as well. So no matter how generic it would be, it would be rotated out if it’s tied to an archetype.
There is a reason: it allows for formats with peculiarities. For example, there could be a format where Smashing Ground is the best monster removal, there's an easily used spell searcher for redundancy (which could probably never exist if all generic good spells stay legal) and monsters are balanced around how easy they are to remove with it.
@@XerxesTheUndead They could literally reprint anything they want into a format. Just because a particular decktype gets rotated out doesn't mean Konami is obligated to remove EVERY card tied to that deck. They could rotate out Dinowrestlers and Harpies but reprint Pank and Duster into a new set because they want them in that block. Arguments based on arbitrary limitations aren't substantial.
Generics need to go the most. We're at a critical mass of staples and every time a new playable spell or trap gets printed it either needs to be better than all of the ten or so playable cards that fill that same niche or it needs to directly hit a meta deck. We have so many board breakers and s/t removal that all do similar things but slightly better or with niche improvements. Sucking out half of the list and concentrating on a few good ones would do wonders for the game.
Hey Josh thanks for uploading this reaction and opinion on the topic. I was really waiting for it!, also please upload your reaction to the new monster type announced!
It is genuinely difficult to not assume bad faith by everyone in this discussion except for MBT. Because I refuse to believe that the other 3 are trying to have this discussion without the most fundamental understanding of how it has been made to work in other games while kneejerking and equating the implementation of Set Rotation with going back to the stone age of Yugioh.
Given the discussion is about how Konami would implement it I doubt there far off Don’t exactly have a great track record when they start meddling (remember this is the company that told you to pay for a safe slot)
I only have one problem with set rotation....I dont really want to be told what decks I can play. It is why I play yugioh, if i want to play some garbo deck and go 1-3 at locals thats on me.
The core set idea is perfect. I. "brothers war" the core set replacement recently in magic, they reprinted monetary swiftspear. It is a beloved, low to the ground aggressive creature that can still be a mid game threat, and by printing it into standard they allow people to play with it in standard. Printing it now also legalised it for one of the "younger" non rotating formats called Pioneer. The reprint is cool, puts the card in new formats and let's fans vibe with a card they like with some cool new theme appropriate art
Meh, i like that yugioh has the freedom to use what cards you want, from a blackwing deck that cant keep up with todays meta, to the top meta decks today. If blackwings get ruined then so be it but thats that players freedom/ choice to do that.
I think more preemptive hits on banlists would help a lot. Try and hit problems, that we KNOW are going to be problems, before they happen would be wonderful.
So. What. “Announcing power of the elements.” If you pull a Kitkallos you can’t play it. They just need to play test this crap and design the game right the first time
I would like to see set rotation implemented in some form. It’ll 100% take the backseat to the current progression format. But I’d still like to see it none the less. If only to halt power creep, text increase, and various other problems
Konami should 100% release a new format with rotation but call it something else, like uh...battle pack format, where they make sets with restricted and selective card pools meant to create a simplier format that players can pick up and play, and then keep supporting that format until the sets rotate and vice versa.
Or, multiple rarities. Yugioh- pot of prosperity has been printed twice. Still is extremely expensive gatekeeping young or fiscally responsible players from competetive viability. Pokémon- professors research, a draw seven consistency booster sees a reprint in almost every expansion everyone can access it in an uncommon but they also reprint stunning full art high rarity prints with fan favorite professors which fetch a very high price for collectors. Stupid ass Yugioh treats us like cards that are powerful should be harder to obtain and more rare. Which is fucked up. Pay to win. Anti consumer. Toxic. Cuckoldry for the chucklefucks who play along with it. It’s the opposite. The more necessary a card. The more it should be available to all players so that there is a fair playing field for deck building and high level play is not gate kept to cucks who spend 700 dollars on cardboard twice a year.
On another note- yugioh will eventually burn out due to power creep and it will be unplayable. So in my opinion nuking the entire game towards a reset could be healthy for longevity.
41:53 why not? Boy I sure would to be living in Philly where it’s standard but I don’t have a standard deck and I can’t afford to go to New York where it’s expanded.
My dogshit take: I hate feeling like my progress is being artificially reset in games. If you've ever played Destiny, or any Arpg like Diablo, every 3 months or so you have to farm all of your gear from scratch. I see this as the same thing as set rotation, I just hate not being able to use my collection of cards to experiment with the new stuff
@@BramLastname agree. People are too focused on the perspective that they are going to *forced* to play the rotating format. The reality is that adding a rotation gives players the *option* to choose a higher power or lower power format. If I can choose to play 2 or 3 entirely different card games semi-competitively, the average player can reasonably enjoy 2 formats of the same game.
@@江建国-p9q people are more likely to like at least 1 format if there's more than 1 format, Yet half the people in the comments refuse to look past the "MaH bLu EYeS" argument, Which is so tiresome.
@@Salati00so none of what you said is applicable to the discussion. Because either you believe Set Rotation = No Legacy Format Or you are willingly misrepresenting the argument.
It would be cool but not with our current card distribution. Part of the allure of pet decks is I put like 60-80 dollars USD into my rouge deck and I can play it till the day I die and you can use it as a gauge to see if you like this format enough to get seriously competitive with it. But if you want to be super competitve you'd have to spend $300+ dollars on a new deck every time it rotates. That'll be a gripe for returning players. Unless they adopt and less predatory way of releasing their cards, this game will become a money trap for western audiences more so under rotation than it already is.
You have to spend $300 dollars now if you want to be super competitive because of power creep. No way someone is going to look at the newest release and decide “actually i think Burning Abyss is the best deck this format” No. The best decks will always be the newest cards out. Rotation would actually lead to more reprints and makes decks more affordable. Yugioh TCG has a price gouging problem regardless.
100% yugioh could have formats. Core sets with all staples that could be used. With blocks of sets to be used. This would require correct design of old and new cards because it could send yugioh into a very clear cut best deck no matter what. it also could be healthy and possibly toxic to force player to dig deep in the vault on what to build. Similar annoyingly. For MTG. Mainstream tournament rotational formats. Standard- tends to have clear strategies that are simply superior ( only core set with blocks of sets are legal) requires players to constantly buy new product to keep up with standard formats. Which yugioh player are used too anyways. Pioneer- a constructed format from x set forward w/ banned list. Modern- a constructed format from x year before pioneer w/ banned list Legacy- all sets w/ banned list. Legacy is most similar to current yugioh.
One thing that makes me suspicious of set rotation is the lazyness of konami to get more designers to make a good well designed set, because its one thing designing a deck/card but a format actually requires a lot more effort that these big billionairies company dont want to expend their precious money on, even if it brings them more return in the future.
If powercreep is the only reason to push for a rotation,why not utilize the banlist more? Limit and semi limit a bunch of cards.Wouldn't that also stop powercreep from happening? Instead of limiting like 4 cards every banlist why not limit like 25 to bring down the powerlevel, if thats the concern...
@Ekkk take tearlaments for an example,by far the best deck yugioh has ever seen.The went a bit more drastic with it on the banlist.The deck is still playable, but the powerlevel is much fairer. Imagine they would take that approach with more decks.You dont have to hit everything to be of the level of goat decks being the best,but you can surely always reset by a 1 year or two.Also the semi limit list would help a ton with adjusting power levels
@@derohneleben8205I think Edison is a lower power format than Goat. Panda Burn, Chaos Turbo, Warriors, Beastdown and Cat Barrel kill or seal the game by turn 5
I feel that rather than adding Set Rotation into the OCG/TCG (which is what I feel the question really is), they could begin the inclusion of an official secondary format, we'll call it Under Powered. They'll have to start with finding a sweet spot with the power scaling for it, something that allows most decks to compete. I think the best way to do that is to go further and tier off the rogue category (don't know how many you would use) and finding the middle as the power ceiling. Decks of any higher power can come down to this level with limitations and probably most, if not all decks would be in here with some hits anyway. I would doubt anything was 100% intact that wasn't Iron Chain. Same with those Main and Extra Deck staples getting hit or nuked outright. It would also mean that depending on power, new releases are absolutely applicable to being put into Under Powered, which wouldn't absolutely mess up the current state of Yu-Gi-Oh. They won't have to consider making cards for two formats, they can go however chase card hungry they want without having resort to a complete overhaul of how to conduct business. The open market might see some crazy shit possibly. Ultimately the idea being as many decks as possible are able to be competitive at this tier, but there's a lot of theory and play testing that no one would ever commit to in order to check the power for this but hey, I'll take "week one Master Duel" format forever if I can get it. There's probably a whole host of things I'm overlooking with this idea.
The "old card comes back" argument would only apply to the rotating format. I presume that Komoney would have at least one eternal format as well as the rotating format.
@@Jaice00 Atlest in Pokemon Expanded was fine and supported untill they screwed the pooch and made 'Tag Team' cards that masive single birst power creep ireversably damiged the format to the point it got abandoned from offical events. GLC is kind of taking its place as secoundary formant in many offical events now.
@@Jaice00 What do you mean by neglected? For example WotC puts out stuff for both their paper eternal formats and are rolling out Remasters and other "Historic/Alchemy only" sets for MTG Arena.
I think a hybrid model would be cool. Where archetype cores are printed in eternal sets (reinoheart, havnis, scheiren) and the busted stuff would be printed in rotation sets (think kitkallos, planet, elf)
So if you want to play Tear in eternal you need to buy twice the product? Yeah, because Konami's image as being too greedy for money isn't bad enough already.
@@claire6452 Eternal product would always be legal. You don't need to rebuy it. I would also say that if cards are reprinted in a rotated set then previous printings would be legal for that format. In other words all old printings of a card that are printed in a "rotated in" set are legal for play. So no. You wouldn't have to rebuy anything Edit: to be clear these aren't separate formats. It's two types of product for the same format.
@@scottwheler177 You don't get it. You'd need to buy both sets to play only one format. Don't be dense. I'm not talking about buying the same set twice.
@@scottwheler177 Support yes. Not the strategy. You can't be this stupid, can you? If I open POTE right now, I can play tear. You're suggesting splitting that even more to the point where nothing in one set is playable unless you also open the set from the format you don't care about. Wow. What a great idea.
When done well, even some shitty common/uncommon cards can be standard viable. In mtg, these cards see play pretty much only in standard and are getting opened a ton for chase rare cards, so they end up being very cheap. People often talk about how once you buy staples in yugioh, you don’t have to spend a ton to change your decks up. With a well-curated, lower power level standard format, you could also have a lot of generic staples that won’t rotate because the get reprinted.
True. And not like your set of ash blossoms and effect veilers can carry your deck. The big money you are paying is always in the form of 3-of Core stapes which konami frequently only releases in secret rarity in the sets. Meaning you have to pay hundreds to actually try out a new deck archetype.
In response to opening comments, imagine a standard format where Maxx C is legal, but decks deal in extra normal summons rather than specials, with the only exceptions being so-called inherent summons. That has the potential to be really cool, if done well! And they can print a single floodgate into a format, like Skill Drain, alongside counters to it e.g. quickplay spells that tribute your monster cards for a strong benifit. Konami could make the frustrating cards as cool as they deserve to be this way! Personally, I'd love to see another format where the Dragon Rulers are viable but there are more than 2 decks, just because I like the deck's playstyle and play patterns (plus, cool dragons are cool. There's a part of me that loves the meta flavor of those elemental lords getting out of their assigned decks and teaming up to be arguably the strongest thing in the game at the time, especially since the way their abilities interact makes it feel like they're all friends and constantly helping one another. But maybe I'm weird there). If you wish to argue that Konami could, but wouldn't, do good things with set rotation, go ahead. I will not argue against you on that matter. I will just say that Konami would not be able to make mistakes which prevent them from _ever_ trying a cool idea with set rotation, and Konami occasionally makes something cool. Unrelated, the fact that this series is ending for having had X episodes rather than running out of ideas is the best argument against set rotation in the video. edit - nothing substantial, I just literally forgot to include a few words. There was a sentence similar to "I have fun playing because they're intricate, complicated, technical games."
rotation seems pointless Yugioh already has heavy emphasis on the newer archtypes being the strongest ones, its like a soft rotation, the whole reason I quit physical MtG is because my large collection of cards I collected year 1 immediately became entirely worthless
We’ve already reached the point where we need set rotation. Look at tearlaments and the ishizu cards, they banned all of them because they had to be better.
The thing is, card games with rotation will always want a nonrotating format, even if it's just a casual format, so does would establishing rotation really help power creep in YGO? It's almost like they have the skeleton of a casual anything goes format and what they need to do is establish a rotating format specifically for competitive. Maybe what they could do is print into a time wizard format. Create new cards and decks that can play well in Edison, and hey if some find their way into standard then that's pretty fun, but essentially I think they have to think of it opposite of other card games. Magic has a competitive standard that branched off into casual non-rotating formats, but YGO can look at is as their current standard should be the casual and what they need to really establish is a competitive format that's not only fun for players but fun for spectators too with a lot of back and forth interaction.
Yugioh has already proved Rotation can work and thats in Duel Links / Speed Duels. The first set had a mix of old and new cards, like Sphere Kuriboh beside Blue-Eyes. We are currently in a Link era in DL without ever seeing say, Shaddoll release. We got DAD in the Link era, etc. Yugioh, and card games in general, are so multifaceted that you could compile a random list of cards for a format and I guarantee it would still be fun to play/solve. I think its fascinating how strategies can form without X or Y card. Salamangreat, for example, adores/adored Meer in Duel Links, when it never bat an eye at it in the TCG. The biggest boon these formats provide imo is redefining what an archetype’s strategy is or can be using the cardpool it has at its disposal In fact, I think DL shouldve done more with the platform at a faster pace. It wouldve been perfect if, in that same realm of early DL, we had cards like Grenosaurus, Pentestag, Mighty Warrior, etc. A card like Heatleo would be awesome for an early power level FIRE deck and we would see the card be played in a way that it never has been seen before.
The Episode was SHOULD YU-GI-OH HAVE SET ROTATION? not What are the 1000 things can be changed to make YU-GI-OH! better People that don't try, will never succeed. Also learning to play, doesn't mean Top Cut at Tier 3 events....
"Your friends don't rotate" killed me ☠️
My friends rotate Joel
My friends have been rotating since childhood.
The big thing that people fail to understand about multiple formats is that they have this "You have to pick one and only one" mindset. You wouldn't divide much when a lot if not most people would just play both options.
Yeah, i really don't understand coders argument? oh no i can't play my pet deck... yes you can, just in another format. Also just becouse you play Master Duel you can still go to a tcg ycs. Its sad to see how little they understand it.
@@trokolisz3702 uhhhh pretty sure he can't got to any YCS because he's currently on the ban list.
because keeping up with multiple formats can be expensive
and most people that play yugioh already have several decks. why is it such a hard concept for people to have those decks but for multiple formats.
@@Heyhowsitgoin999 "Your friends don't rotate" but they certainly can get put on the banlist
I think an underrated aspect of set rotation is the impact is has on sealed play. With rotating set design, there's a greater focus on making sets individually playable without having to comb through old sets with cards that never got reprinted.
The infinite amounts of yugioh roulette various other series on UA-cam just show how much yugioh players want a sealed format
@@PitouTV
But that is one of the things that make sealed formats more interesting.
By having access to staple cards in every set, or designing for new sets their own staple cards that basically do the same as the staple cards from older sets, sealed formats become a lot less restrictive and less challenging.
Since staples are generically good, this also makes the decks that come out of sealed play more bland.
Having some sets that cannot really produce workable decks at all is definitely a sacrifice worth making to have this room for creative play.
@@xCorvus7xeven if you take sets like the mega tins with mostly only staples you won't get enough of everything or even the most. I bought 12 last year and not pulled a single handtrap 3 times. 1 ash, 1 nib only from 12 boxes. This is crazy! I'm definitely for a healthy set rotation with no short prints.
@@LordKenntax Pardon, what's your point?
You're mixing set design with what one can pull within a limited (and over all relatively small) number of products from that set.
If you're limited to such a small amount of product, having comparable staples in each set won't do you any more good than simply playing a historic format.
The unique aspect of sealed play is precisely the absence of such staples because they do not exist at all in the set of choice.
there is also the concept of "basic set", basically an old set that never rotates out. If anime cards are important then they can just make it so dark magician and blue eyes never rotate out, and some basic staples like MST or sth.
That is indeed what the CORE set is for!
The issue is there are more popular archetypes then just DM and blue eyes. A lot more.
@@applejhon8308 There are popular archetypes in magic that rotated out, its fine. They come back eventually or you find another fun archetype. And its not like the decks fade away once the sets rotate. You can play it in a different format. Its also pretty hype when an archetype you like comes back.
@@hihi123hiful Archetypes in yugioh are very different from Archetypes in magic from what I understand. In yugioh archetype refers to a set of cards that either share the same "group" name or mention each other in their effects. Archetypes can differ wildy and often revolve around certain gimmicks built into their effects. Oh and there are a LOT of Archetypes.
@@applejhon8308Sure but at the end of the day, like MBT and kinda Gage said, those archetypes just get the shit kicked out of them
You have no idea how frustrating it was listening to coder throw out problems with rotation that WOTC solved like 20 years ago.
The BEST part is that it's obvious Coders main complaint is "I can't play my suboptimal rogue deck from x years ago!" as the man just wants to play unchained.
BUT in set rotation ROGUE DECKS ARE BETTER IN ETERNAL FORMATS, that's the reason why in magic eternal formats like modern there are 4000 different deck that do MUCH better than rogue Yugioh decks! BECUASE POWER CREEP ISN'T OUT OF CONTROL.
I swear Yugioh players are have stockholm syndrome with power creep.
Saying WotC solved powercreep with set rotation is incredibly disingenuous (seriously this is a take I only ever hear when people are comparing MtG to other games, never in the context of discussing MtG on its own). Even in MtG, powercreep perpetually occurs because from set to set, cards generally have to be better or they won't sell. It doesn't matter cards will rotate out in 2 years when cards 4 months from now will be competing with them.
Set rotation in MtG was established for the same reason YuGiOh's restricted list was expanded to the F&L list, because the game's formative years resulted in a fuckton of staples that would just scale forever and never plausibly go away. Under modern design for any game, rotation isn't the solution people are acting like it is, that's what the banlist does. In fact, heavy reliance on rotation is exactly why the Pokemon TCG is borderline unplayable, because many cards just don't get banned with inevitable rotation being used as the justification.
@@engiopdf8745 power creep still happens, but you can find plenty of decks from older formats without a single card released in the last 4 years.
@@Pedro-ho2xj where? Certainly not in Modern
@@Insulin_Ingo reminder that Modern Horizons is not part of any rotating format, but that's my b for not clarifyng
Duel devastator was a great release that printed a ton of staples for people to use. Imagine getting one of those boxes every year full of staple cards to prepare you for the next format!
for real, anyone who bought out the duel devastators made bank by holding them.
Fun Fact. Duel Devestator was actually a flop and didnt sell well. There wont be a set like that again any soon
@@Alex-Omega all that went through the minds of yugioh players at the time was “I’ve already got those cards”. Smh
@@Alex-Omega Source?
When I first got back to Yu-Gi-Oh around 2019 that's the first thing I bought. So it's a great investment for returning players as well
"Why is it the final episode" same energy here
This episode was kinda miserable to sit through because MBT was the only one who knew anything about the topic and the other three were just unwilling to do some basic research or just listen at all. This episode made me kinda glad this episode was the last one lol
it would be better if they "rotated" guests lol
have josh or jesse or someone else on each week.
@@sammydray5919 At least Gage was trying to have a proper discussion with MBT. Farfa and Coder were ones who kept yelling without even attempting to listen.
@@shipu302 Yeah its wild that out of all the guests, Gage came off as the most sane one lmao
@@shipu302 it was funny until you remember people use reasonings like this with every aspect of their lives.
"If they did set rotation properly, it would be sick."
I'm sure if Konami did a better job at managing the banlist, it would also be sick.
It wouldn't solve the new players issue
Exactly. If konami did set rotation “properly” (which isn’t even a defined thing and is probably different for everybody) it *would* be sick. They *won’t* do it properly though, I don’t even know if it *can* be done properly.
@@SDREHXC actually it is defined,
It's not scientifically bullet proof,
But there's industry standards for set rotation.
Firstly, set rotation spans at least 2 years and doesn't happen in the first 3 years unless the player base demands it.
Secondly, reprints of cards that have been rotated or are rotating out soon are reprinted in the yearly reprint set and remain legal until the set rotates out.
Thirdly, if you're using hard rotation (aka every rotation rotates half or more of the available cards) after every rotation is a core set and/or reprint set to flesh out the early post-rotation format a bit more.
However if you're using soft rotation this generally isn't necessary as there's always roughly (or exactly) the same amount of sets.
Finally, set rotation should be accompanied by a legacy format that allows cards from all sets to be used (unless major design changes make it too difficult if not outright impossible to keep them legal.)
@@BramLastname Set rotation is exactly the reason why so many card games die after two years, even if we got a lot of new players with set rotation as soon all the card those players got became illegal most of them would just quit lol
@@Daipnemon I literally said "no set rotation for the first 3 years"
Josh: Rotation is not as bad as it sounds.
Also Josh: NOOOOO MBT Please don't rotate this series!
He will prove his point by milking the next series just as much as this one c: I hope its good!
@@Rahochusosu it would be better if he gets invited to participate in that series instead of just reacting to it.
Because MBT's series hasn't reached a critical point of power creep, Josh wants more episodes printed before a rotation is needed
@@totalwartimelapses6359
@@totalwartimelapses6359
There's actually an Official Set Rotation that happened in the OCG Asia outside Japan, It's called ”SP Format” From DUEA to SHIV, (and all side sets in between) this is the only Format you can play competitively there at the time, and everyone hated it, you also cannot use Promo cards that are only available in Japan despite being also OCG.
An issue that MBT has brought up elsewhere is: YGO sets are not designed for set rotation to exist. YGO sets currently are designed with the idea that you get whatever glue you need from elsewhere (e.g. Imperm and Effect Veiler are often not included in core sets). Magic sets are designed so that every set has some form of negation, some kinda of field wipe, some form of removal or other response (for every color).
This has to happen alongside more fluid design decisions, whereas YGO currently balances using locks (type-locking, name-locking, attribute-locking, sometimes level-locking), and features name-based archetypes rather than keyword or playstyle based archetypes, which leads to an issue where a Magic set may support, idk, discarding as a playstyle, for several sets, whereas in YGO, it may get support in one set, then the next set, then not again for years. Or be dependent on a card from that same archetype not available in the current rotation, which could be solved by reprinting that card *into* the current rotation in advance, which you would do if managing a game that has set rotation.
Obviously sets would have to be designed with set rotation in mind.
We've seen rotation in forms like the "Sealed Only Battle Pack" sets where they existed as a 100 card pool but that sample size is too small. I think Nadir has the right approach to it where it becomes 2 different formats similarly to the other games. Having a standard and then an extended (like Pokemon) would still have players playing both. Either way, power creep has gone too far in YGO and it's incredibly draining for everyone to play/create.
I hold that there should be at least one episode where eveyone was the imposter
As long as "legacy" is a format that isn't ignored (like it is in mtg), I would be happy to have set rotation added to yugioh.
I think the problem with Legacy is MTG has cards they can't reprint, not the gameplay itself. Legacy is super popular in Magic Online, it's just hard to justify paying rent money for a single dual land, especially when decks often require 5-6 to function.
Legacy is where u can see magic gameplay fast enough u can get win in less than 5 turns. And there are some powerful cards that can negate ur play without using manas / destroy ur land etc. Also combo complicated and long enough like YGO combo where u can otk ur opp within turn 2-3 iirc (storm something i forgot the name). Lot of pseudo tutor cards too, just like YGO.
Its entire different game than standard. I do like legacy too when my friend was really into it few years back, he sometimes lent me some decks to play with him. As YGO player i cam say i enjoy it quite a bit.
But yea problem is budgets, coz like guy above said, they dont reprint lot of powerful cards thats in reserve list, like dual lands etc. So irl, they become rather dead format coz not that many ppl can even afford to play it.
Set rotation necessatates that legacy becomes inferior in balance. The cards that are designed for standard set rotation will have to ignore legacy cards, otherwise it would defeat the purpose of a rotation in the first place. Since those cards are legal in legacy too though, bonkers combos will happen it's only a matter of time. So the only option would be to then ban those cards in legacy, but no company is realistically going to ban new product unless if it's seriously damaging bottom line. So even by virtually being there, set rotation will make legacy inferior. Beyond that, you can't expect Konami to expend more money on actually handling game balance for 2 formats, when their goal with set rotation would be to retain monetary gain.
@@Yous0147 Yugioh doesn't even have that luxury. If they introduce rotation they MUST print full decks in play groups for curated formats with new cards and selected generics smattered in.
@@invertbrid That's not true at all. There was a turn 2 kill in standard not too long ago. It was jank. But it was a turn 2 kill.
tbh the biggest issue with set rotation in terms of yugioh that the other card games dont have is how archetypes work and how much support there is for anime only archetypes.
it would turn really stale format after format when they keep reprinting all of DMG, Blue eyes, HEROs and every other fan favorite to be playable and legal to get the anime fans in there. IMO it would end up being very stale as well. Thats not to mention how the TCG loves to nickle and dime people with rarity bumps either with the product themselves with pull rarity or in the secondary market with pricing.
With how archetypes are setup its very fair to say while they can reprint certain ones its also fairly easy to say theres a lot of player favorites that would probably never see a return. Like sure blackwings will probably be reprinted to some degree when they drop the anime pandering set every format but could you really say the same of Nekroz, (a notable archetype that is one of the last of its era to never get any form of direct legacy support?) or even something like Earth Machine in which its legacy of a card pool over the recent modern era has come together to make a really fun combo deck that isnt tied to all cards in a deck being "X" name?
I think farfa's opinion is pretty based, if you were to implement set rotation as a side format it would be fine imo. but then you would need to support that format either in its own contained product or just have the actual will to support it in general.
I wouldnt have faith in Konami to do set rotation properly, its more than likely you would see still the same power creep but they forget to print easily accessible counters or those same counters would just be rarity bumped to hell and back to make it inaccessible to newer players anyways. Hell Pokemon has set rotation and there's entire videos out there on how pokemon has been power crept since its inception.
and hot take: as much as someone wants to go to bat for the yu gi boomers in the audience, i stopped playing mid 2014 due to money issues, i had to sell my entire collection. My knowledge at the time was like Shaddolls and and artifacts at full power, back when people still played traps competitively because they werent considered too slow to use. Never have I once at that point used a pendulum card or even synchro summoned (at the time i thought synchro was annoying because math hard). I had never even played a competent combo deck either since i started playing back then at the ass end of D ruler format with like babys first deck of normal summons and tributes before i moved onto playing shaddolls.
I came back late TOSS format and picked up orcust a fun combo deck and learnt it. it was never that hard nor was it difficulty to understand what a link monster was or its summon. Yugioh has a lot of moving parts but lets not pretend its a complicated game to play. People just get scared off when they see the extra deck has like 4 colors in it and shit themselves.
Konami having side events for older formats is the ideal way to go, they at best just need to adjust the bad parts of those formats away and then print product so people can actually play them. Cause theres no point in having the YCS Nekroz if the cards you need to play them are all 8 years old and limited in their copy count.
okay im starting to come around on the idea of set rotation, my main point against it was always old archetypes that i like but the idea that they could release a new set and makes something like worms playable sounds amazingly fun
Only for worms to be good for one format before they’re. A. Rotated out or power crept to hell.
I think the issue I see is.
Konami would probably never rerelease archetypes like worms if set rotation exited. You know for a fact we’d almost exclusively anime decks
The problem with the argument for set rotation is it actually won't level the playing field. Seeing what has actually happened with Pokemon and MTG among other games, it's been the opposite. The problematic power cards are rarely ever old cards, and when it is they're usually better handled being banned. It's usually newer cards that are the problem, set rotation bans all old cards, so when they design new sets they still have to content with the newer more power crept cards. In fact it exacerbates power creep because they ONLY have to design with and against those cards in mind, whereas before you could at least have some cards with lower or higher power level map to higher and lower power level cards from older sets, that's just not an option anymore.
Look at it visually, these are sets overall power level released in order:
1 -> 2 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 4 -> 5
The only legal sets are the 4 last ones:
3 -> 4 -> 4 -> 5
But let's say you want to go back to a power level of 2 next set:
(3 ->) 4 -> 4 -> 5 -> 2
It simply won't work. No one will play it because a power level of 2 against 5 (think like Melfy against Tear or something) is just as ridiculous as just releasing power level 2 cards on a set today. So realistically the next set will be 4, 5 or 6 which is exactly the same as today.
@@Yous0147 Actually some of the most broken sets in magic's history are from the late 90s known as the urza block and many cards had to be banned from it, as for the power creep that is going on in magic atm its because wizards isn't designing for standard they are designing for commander an eternal format. If you ask many players that have been playing magic for a very long time some of their favorite formats were like innistrad the first time which yes added a couple eternal cards to the other formats but since then have been power crept, not because of standard players wanting stronger cards but because wizards wanted to cater to commander players.
@@shanatokisaki4596 Thanks for the writeup. I know about the urza block, it mirrors old cards like painful choice in Yugioh. Many of those cards are banned even in eternal and all in modern, so they're not a problem that rotation would even be touching upon let alone fixing. They're designing cards for commander for sure, but I'd argue it's correlation not causation. Cards that are broken in standard are broken in commander too, what they're doing is really just designing format warping cards that act as chase cards for a set, something they've always done that rotation will not fix. It's the reason why Jace the Mind Sculptor was dominating his block despite being a planeswalker. If you look at their product line wholistically, you'll see they're amping up power level left and right, that's both in commander products and outside of it.
I think YGO actually does something a lot like Set Rotation in that they occasionally make games like Duel Links or Speed Duels, which essentially rotate out the entire format and start again at low power. I think in both cases they're designed to try to appeal to an audience that doesn't want to keep up with the insane complexity of the current game, and it basically is Konami trying to do the same thing without actually having to do rotation. I think it'd be nice if there was a supported IRL format like that, or at least on MD or something that's a little less gacha-y than DL.
thats not what set rotation is, set rotation would be keeping only the newest cards and some, while both Duel links and speed duels just start from begining.
agree, duel link, speed duel, and rush duel for me is a way for konami to refresh their cardpool, but the thing is, they are outside the main game, need other options for the main game
In the world where rotation came in I think a big challenge would be where to set the games power level. I think getting agreement on that would be crazy hard. Not that it's any better to keep trying to print crazier stuff every year haha
I don't quite agree with the fact that we can't combat first turn powercreep, a big thing that has been lacking is going second powercreep.
And I don't mean outside of engine boardbreakers. I want more in-engine cards that have additional functions going second, things like in-engine HTs (like Havnis or the Bystials), cards that function better going second (Mole Cricket or even Shaddoll fusion) or, and this may be my own wild idea, cards that have an effect when they're negated.
Imagine a Stratos that upon negation pops a card, that way your opponent has a choice between letting you search, negate it once and deal with the pop, or negate it twice and risk running out of negates.
Going second powercreep is wholly underexplored right now but I believe we're on a turning point where it might be blown open. A lot of the cards I mentioned in the previous paragraph are relatively recent but were/are critical parts of their decks so I believe they'll set a precedent for future card design.
Kash already does this since they all have effects revolving around your opponent activating ANY monster effect, including negates.
Watching this after the actual video feels like exiting an asylum jesus thank you
20:00 "the game can't get much faster" current trajectory seems like both players play on turn 1 and try to ftk each other. See lab EEV on turn 0 or tear winda locking turn 0
Those things barely happened. Its only happening if a player drew infinite gas
What I think is really important is the emphasis on card design needing to go hand in hand with rotation. Magic's Standard format has suffered from this the past few years (though I am unaware of the current state), because card designs started to go "a little" overboard despite having rotation.
Another point of set rotation (and according design) is to minimize the need to put cards on the banlist. For one, because they will just rotate out, so really only the worst offenders need to be considered for the banlist. Second, imagine the terrible feeling of spending 100$+ on a playset of a card needed for your deck, only for it to land on the banlist the next week.
If there is rotation, how am I summoning Jowgen and setting 4?
I feel unable to comment on this discussion, on the one hand the arguments for set rotation sound perfectly valid, but on the other hand, I literally cannot imagine the game without the ability to think back to old cards. I don't believe Konami is a good enough company to actually manage a set rotation format properly, but even if they could, they would bring back staples. They would bring back what they plan to give legacy support. They would never bring back that one card that you think has a super cool synergy. Everyone is thinking of handtraps, board breakers, removal, and depending on the format, combat tricks, tribute fodder, or stall cards. No one is thinking of bringing back Shinobi Necro, Mad Mauler, and Doomking Balerdrotch for some fun zombie mill pile. Those decks will just never be able to exist. No one would've been playing lightsworns in grass shadoll infernoid decks, because the idea of that deck probably wasn't interesting enough for whoever is managing the format. No one would've been trying to activate Kyoto Waterfront and special summon Gamaciel from hand with Saryuja in early link format. Sure, the kaijus might stick in the game, but there's not enough room to keep every card that could be interesting. Just because there are only a handful of legacy cards that are actually good, doesn't mean there is a lack of legacy cards that might be interesting.
I disagree.
Set rotation in pokemon isn't combating powercreep nor card complexity. Look at all of those 200+ hp basics.
It isn't upping the headcount at events either. It can work, but f&l works fine aswell.
Pokémon's power creep seems to be an era lurch forward into a new way of designing the game. It seems to be them deliberately trying to up numbers to make the gameplay of "big number crash into other big number" a real gameplay mode.
It's not exactly well known in the west, but PTCG was not developed with rotation in mind...until 2019 technically.
Creatures creates cards primarily with the Japanese format in mind (think "OCG" vs. "TCG"), and set rotation was formally implemented only recently in 2019 with the start of Sword & Shield. Before, they were basically soft rebooting the game every couple of series, similar to what Cardfight!! Vanguard does as well as supporting multiple constructed formats at once, which means that the legal card pool was often much larger and static for longer than a normal rotating format.
My 2¢ as a magic player who has played Modern Mtg for many years, and got into Yugioh about a year ago:
I think rotation is a fantastic solution for what Joshua sees as the issues to modern Yugioh, and am quite frankly surprised Konami never took after Magic and set up a rotation on their own.
However, that being said, I absolutely love the insulated world Yugioh lives in apart from almost all other TCGs. I play Yugioh specifically for handtraps, floodgates, 1-card full negation boards, consistent turn 2 OTKs, and of course, a non-rotating format that everyone plays. Is it perfect? No, but no card game is. I want Yugioh to stay non-rotating for selfish reasons, because if I wanted a different pace of play, I’d just play a different game (of which there are many now, both digital and in paper!)
Just like Magic, both formats could coexist.
The fact that Yu-gi-oh is so chaotic is what makes me love it. We play the game because we like the power fantasy. If you want a TCG with set rotation and different formats then go play literally any other game. I just know that if Yu-Gi-Oh gets a set rotation format and it gets bigger than the OG format is when I drop out, the uniqueness will simply be gone.
@@amaskeddude What uniqueness would be gone specifically?
@@sammydray5919 That it doesn't have set rotation. That it has only one official format and an unpredictable banlist that keeps the formats engaging. The ability to use any card ever printed as long as it's legal to formulate or strengthen both new and old strategies. The crazy power level and interactivity duels can have. And the most important aspect to me is the feeling of community that isn't scattered into a million other formats.
@@amaskeddude There is always a scattered community. Dont pretend that ain't the case. There are folks who will never play modern because the pace and power creep seems too much. There are folks who are too invested in certain old formats and dont bother with current game. There are pet deckers who refuse to evolve their decks and would rather complain and whine that it doesn't work well anymore. There is a serious divide between casual and meta players because casual decks just cannot keep up at all despite the nostalgia support these decks get sometimes. Then there is a section of potential people who simply get into the game because the game is way too bloated now and there is just way too much stuff to keep track of for new players. Master duel's bombastic launch and later it losing so many players already shows that there are so many potential new players that might be interested in yugioh (even if they are casual) but the game in its current state is just not good for anyone new to jump in.
Also I hate how people speak of old cards being relevant again as if its all positive even though apart from a couple of exceptions, most of the cards that get relevant again are in a negative way. As even Joshua highlighted multiple times in this video floodgates like Anti-Spell, Skill Drain, Gozen, Rivalry and even shit like Soul Drain and Necrovalley just make games miserable and will be better off gone for good from the game. Why did Aqua Dolphin see play in Isolde decks? To rip out handtraps to insulate your bullshit combo which was mostly gumblar hand loop at the time. Why was smoke grenade played in infernoble knights? Because it allowed the deck to easily hand loop your opponent. Why did Wind barrier statue become relevant? Because certain decks can consistently bring it out and lock the opponent out from playing the game. Why is Instant Fusion so strong? Because modern cards absolutely break it.
Apart from some exceptions like book of moon and enemy controller, old cards coming back has never been really a net positive for the health of the game so I am getting tired of people bringing up that novelty as if it doesn't lead to anything wrong.
Set rotation doesn't mean that any of the positives you mentioned will be gone. If people wanna play current style yugioh they can always default back to the eternal format which WILL most definitely exist because Konami isn't stupid and will realise that supporting it will be good source of financial income for them on top of a standard format.
People always complain that the player base will shrink due to multiple formats but never factor in the overall increase in players once the game gets easier to get in.
This is where I disagree with you, Josh. I don't think set rotation is healthy because people love playing rogue decks like, myself. @2:55, you basically explain in a nutshell that we have power creep which inadvertently creates a set rotation anyway, but in that aspect I can still play my wrote deck if I want to wear as a set rotation I cannot. Yes it's true, you can make other formats however even now where we have Master dual and ocg, I still feel like I'm out of the loop because I played thunder dragon and I don't have my full arsenal. I know it's frustrating too faced many different Dex if you're competitive player but there are some competitive players like myself that enjoy a very diverse format. If anything we need to make a format that meets issues halfway for everyone.
Just Imagine a perfect world where any Major set release such as the start of GX, 5D's, Zexal etc... Made the previous release rotate out.
You are describing progression playoffs.
I play both magic and yugioh. The community in magic isn’t really split. Most players play multiple formats. Standard, modern, pioneer, and commander are some of the more popular ones. There’s also a lot of fun formats like pauper (common cards only) that are less competitive but still very popular. A lot of players will buy cards for both standard, and modern, and also commander. Each of those formats uses a lot of different cards, the speed and nuances are different in each so it’s common that players play all of them, which actually ends up with wotc making more money overall, and the players have more fun. If you get sick of modern you start focusing on standard, and vice versa. There’s never an opportunity to take a break from the game, you just take a break from the format instead.
As a follow up, here’s what usually happens for new players:
You start with standard because it’s the slowest and simplest format, you don’t have to learn thirty thousand cards, only like a couple hundred (the viable ones).
You get more familiar with the mechanics of the game and branch out into older formats with much larger and larger card pools.
You end up playing legacy, legacy cubes, or commander. These are all eternal formats where all cards are legal, aside from the ones on the banlist.
I think yugioh would end up working the same way. We would get new packs with cards exclusively for the eternal formats, and other cards that are in the standard rotation sets are legal in both standard and the eternal formats. Usually the standard cards aren’t great in eternal formats, but sometimes they are, even eternal format players in magic look forward to standard sets and look for the hidden gems that are playable in eternal formats (there’s always a few)
This doesn't work with yugioh. We have speed duel format and it sells nothing.
Time wizard format isn't popular either
@@easyygo3008 That issue is with how Konami supports their formats, imo. None of the main events at any event are anything but Advanced. Like, in MTG, if you go to Worlds, you often have to play multiple formats in the same tournament. There will be a draft portion, and then top 8 will be one of the main constructed formats. Stuff like that happens all the time. If you go to a major MTG event, you will be playing whatever format is run at that event if you're playing in the main event. If you go to a YCS, you will be playing Advanced in the main event. Period. There are side events playing other formats, but if you want to play competitively, you have one format to choose from. That really hurts people's perceptions of the alternative formats. It makes them all feel unofficial, or casual. That feeling of "speed duels is a casual format" contributes to people not caring about it.
As the OP said, in MTG's case, it doesn't even really split the playerbase. MTG makes it clear that most of their major formats matter, and as such, if you decide tomorrow to start playing Modern, you're not going to feel like you're playuing a weird, side version of MTG.
I don't know YGO well enough to argue anything further than that, but I feel like "format that Konami marketed as a casual format didn't perform well" is not an argument against set rotation being a thing.
This is not me necessarily even arguing in favor of set rotation in YGO. I am too new to the game to have an opinion on that that I could actually defend. But I think only seeing set rotation from the context of YGO exactly as it is played now, but with less cards, is just not what set rotation actually would be. They'd have to restructure events and change the way they design cards and sets as a whole. Is that actually a good idea? Is it worth investing the R&D resources into something like that that has the potential to backfire if mishandled? Honestly, it's probably not. But if Konami did implement set rotation, it wouldn't be "you can play this at side events but all the real competition is in Advanced." They would... actually market it and attempt to make it a thing. Because set rotation would be a much more "all-in" change to YGO design than Speed Duels existing off to the side would be.
@@easyygo3008 tf are you talking about? Edison is officially supported now and the Edison tables at the last YCS had more players than the modern formats
@@anon2447
Lmao no it doesn't, main event had way more atendees. Stop making BS up when we can factually check it
I think the only realistic counter argument towards set rotation is that Konami will probably fuck it up lmao
Also they way they're laughing that you have to find out what Set you're playing, as if you won't find AGES in advance anyway, as if it's no different to waiting for an Updated Banlist to know what you can or can't play
I actually feel so bad for MBT in this lmao he's actually spitting SO MANY FACTS
I know right and Farfa is flip-flopping between this it feels. Honestly many problems people claim would come from this are ones we already have heck it'd probably fix more problems. But yugioh players have stockhold syndrome from Konami
The issue with using Konami will fuck it up as an argument is that it applies to any solution to any problem the game has, making any discussion pointless
in a way, Konami tried reeling in the power creep of the game with Master Rule 4 and the introduction of Links, but it created a paywall for the game and not a proper solution-an example of how they actually fucked it up. As cool as Links are, they should have done set rotation too.
One thing that the people talking about splitting the community don’t understand is that the people playing ONLY legacy or ONLY commander or ONLY standard, _wouldn’t be playing any other format either way._ I’ve been playing on and off magic since 2004 and I’ve never played standard, if there was no commander i wouldn’t have every returned to it either way.
Having more formats only give people more options of things they could enjoy, someone that doesn’t like current ygo _could_ enjoy a rotating ygo, like the people who play duel links. You are not losing players by having more formats, current players are not forced to play a rotating format just like they are not forced to play duel links, it’s the same thing, you are just _gaining new potential players._
Nah miss me with that -
1. konami has to do it right - they banned Kit (and merrli) - I dont trust them with anything
2. it would mean that most of the stuff you play is topped down by konami - you can play these archetypes - no not that one, pick one of these
so what if I dont want to play these decks? Do I just quit and wait till something comes out that sounds like fun? Surely not the best of ideas...
3. Link summoned to that zone is: pet decks - i do play meta sure - but mostly I want to play old random ass rouge* decks - and now being told that you cant do that would hurt me and probably many others as well.
4. Creativity - again we let konami descide what techs we can play - you wont see Dawnstar level shit anymore - and for many crazy bad shit non sense is how they enjoy the game and there are many who enjoy this typ of content being produced.
5. Money - now people will tell me, oh now you also need to rebuy your decks, cause banlist and power creep - yes but the big difference would be vuluntarily buying new powerful cards and HAVING to buy new cards, cause the old ones are Illegal.
Agree with all of this, ESPECIALLY number 2.
@@W_Sir_Morpheus :)
I came back to paper-ygo the moment master duel dropped. Before that i played 4 years of magic the gathering starting by playing standard format working my way back in time to play modern format.
There are definitly some benefits about set rotation but in retrospect i really hate rotation. Every single set as the potention to shake up the meta in a way to make your deck irrelevant. "But its the same in YGO!" Yes but the cards you bought don't expire after 1-2 years. There are so many cards in my staple box from that time that cost me over 10€/copy that will never see any play in any format ever again. This fact dropped their price to cents...
Yes you should bring old decks to compeditiv events in YGO if you want to win. But if you want you can.
The point about different format at a YCS event is really something that annoyed the shit out of me with magic events. The way they structured it you have to play all these formats to compete at a compeditive level. You have to play shit like draft/standard/modern/sealed/teamevents all that bullshit at the same time. I can't be informed or even interested in that many formats at the same time, how would i even come close to optimising all of these at the same time... Also maybe you are in a position where you cant travel far for events and the ycs that is finaly close enough to you is a format you hate. In mtg they don't do more tournaments because of the different formats they just rotate through the formats with no extra tournaments.
I hope rotation will never be a thing in YGO with standard sets. Just use Timewizard formats or stuff like speed duel for that. I couldn't care less if there is rotation in speed duel but leave real ygo alone.
I have a similar problem with Rotation. And i played a lot of Magic and Pokemon (and Heartstone) and all had rotation. I hate it
And they don't even fixed the Powercreep of the game. In pokemon we got some mons that put old staples to shame. The game is getting more and more bonkers WITH rotation (and a friend said to me Magic is the same. Some cards now shitstomps some broken old cards, but idk, i dropped Magic 10y ago)
those issues are valid, and I don't think to slap just rotation would be good for yugioh. but I think yugioh is in dire need to refresh the cardpool, at least for alternative constructed format, time wizard are nice, but the static cardpool is one thing that make it not so refreshing
@@comettcg8830 True. It is a real shame they do not support alternative formats. They talked about it, ok... that's cool... i guess, but only talking about is not really supporting it.
It could be something cool if someone was in charge of TimeWizard with Banlists and Adding/Removing cards from different old sets. Without it is just be "here's the format, now do whatever while we big bois think about the real deal"
Counter point: Kash is ass, even with all its names at 3 and Tear still tops over 2 years after all but one of its major pieces got banned or limited. The issue arises when only when something is so heavily overtuned that it hurts the rest of the format.
While I would not mind a Set Rotation, Yugioh has a lot of inherent issues with its card design philosophy that would make it hard to implement. The biggest example of this would be fundamentally changing how product release works, shifting the main sets from being 80-90 new cards to the format to being 300-400 select cards that happen to include new cards and reprints alike. And with that shift in product, they'd need to rethink archetypes and legacy support as a whole since they'd need to reprint the bulk of entire archetypes should they want to release new Legacy Support, which honestly feels like it'd be easy to mess up. Really, it's the named archetype focus Yugioh has that makes Set Rotation awkward to implement
MtG manages to come up with 10 new archetypes for draft essentially every format, and has their cards interact neatly within their archetype or multiple archetypes, gimmicks, and other strategies. I think Yugioh could manage to reprint a few names when they reintroduce an archetype.
EDIT: this comment is a bit hyperbolic w.r.t. MtG, but the general point still stands: MtG's cards have to work together, and they tend to require far more than just a shared name to do so. If Yugioh needs to reprint names, that can be accomplished with relatively little thought.
@@delta3244 mtg's archetype isnt as hard locked as it is in ygo. in ygo an archetype pretty much only works with itself with a few spots for a small engine while magic is more generic which makes it easier to mix match stuff
@@skywardking7798 My rather poorly-expressed point is that MtG R&D manages to put together proper, coherent/synergistic archetypes frequently and reliably _without_ the crutch of looking up cards containing "xyz" in their name. If one can do that, it makes reforming old archetypes _easier,_ not harder.
(minor edit)
@@delta3244 people often point to mtg as a set rotation that works while trying to avoid all other tcg that tried to do rotation that died.
Card rotation wouldn't just require a good r&d team that develop cards but also a fan base willing to spend the money for those cards.
And in terms of ygo one thing that separate it from other card games is archetype and specifically archetype loyalty from a player base. Each of the more well known archetype has a fan base that would only play that one deck and only that deck for all eternity and would be happy just mixing staples around as long as they can play the deck.
Having set rotation would literally drive all those fanbases away from playing at all cuz let's face it not all of konami's archetype are equal sometimes ya get sprights and other times ya get ghoti.
@@skywardking7798 Eternal formats exist for that reason
I just don't see how we can't accomplish the same things as a set rotation with our current ban list format. We can easily have maxx c off the list for 2 -3 banlists just like we did recently with fairy tale snow. We could have a format where extrav or duality are the only legal pot cards for half the year and desires or prosperity for the latter half.
Because there are cards that are not good enough to be banned, but limit diversity. Apolousa, Baronne, Acces Code. These are not really problem cards, but many decks choose to rather make these cards instead of something in archatype. Also there are cards that are really bad, so they will never be banned, like Ido, Ra's discipline, Gimmick Puppet Nightmare, but if you can give it your opponent, you win the game, thus they promote toxic gameplay.
@@trokolisz3702 Well, OP is saying that konami is able to ban those cards you mentioned, not for their power level, rather for the sake of promoting diversity. Different cards can go on and off the banlist to create pseudo set rotation
@@trokolisz3702 yeah so put them on the banlist and then if we want a format where we want to play them take them off. It accomplishes the same thing. It could even be another format, just the "past 2 years" thing seems so arbitrary
For me, the biggest problem with Set Rotation isn't necessarily that the concept itself as an accompanying format to Advanced wouldn't help the longevity of the game but because, let's be real, Konami is too dogshit of a company to implement it in a way that would work. People are already weary of how expensive the game is in the TCG due to Konami's predatory rarity upscaling, can you imagine if they rotated every few formats and people had to spend that much money to play? Hell no it would kill the game.
For me, the only way set rotation could even be viable is if Konami TCG would implement the Pokemon TCG's printing policy and drastically reduce the cost of the game for it to be viable. I'd gladly be ok having an alternative format that sucks up a lot of resources such as a "Standard Format" if it meant the decks costed ~50-100 dollars and you probably had to change decks every 6 months to a year. But they're a greedy capitalist corporation so we all know that won't happen.
Agreed. I legit cannot trust Konami to do it well, if at all
One of the reasons why yugioh is so expensive to get into is because the good generic staples and boss monsters are always in high demand so they usually have a high price while some cards are ridiculously expensive because of their rarity and lack of reprints. Set rotation could help with price aspect because eventually the most popular cards will be rotated out thus lowering their demand and make them more affordable and the sets can include some old cards too so that could help with reprints as well.
Depending on how they are handled the set rotation can help with card design too as cards then wouldn't have to constantly competing with old power houses. Kinda like how any new level 10 synchro has to immediately contest itself against Barone and has to be power crept to actually see play at all. Like how since Accesscode exists in the fomat any link 4 has to contest with it and even Appollusa. Eternal format is the reason why power creep of the game is in a state that newer cards and sets are FORCED to be stupid good or they'll never see play.
Of course power creep can still happen as that is completely dependent on the development team but in a rotating format the power level xan atleast be brought down over time without resorting to banning cards in most cases.
@@sammydray5919 im all in agreeance with you it’s just that wouldn’t happen because it’s predicated off the fact Lonami would print stuff too in an accessible manner
@@sammydray5919 Ok instead thanks to Set rotation generously limiting our options of budget alternatives we now have to shell out full price for the new Handtrap or Boardbreaker every set.
MtG and Pokemon both move a ton of product via alternate means such as draft or collectors.
Yugioh mostly has people cracking packs directly to use or sell cards so supply never beats demand.
@@joshcruzat3112 They would have to because they wouldn't want the game to die. The reason why Konami get away with being so lackluster is because Yugioh is a one format game and they can do whatever they want as long as they make sure to kill the current problem deck that would prevent sales of new cards or just killing the game entirely.
Set rotation needs more active approach so Konami would have no choice but to actually step up their game because they obviously wouldn't want their biggest cash cow to die.
Set rotation inherently can work, Konami would just have to improve and they can really. Like a couple of years ago the game was nothing but solitaire to set up the full negate board while recent meta decks barring kashtira have been focusing on interaction and resources instead of boring negates. Even Kashtira while boring doesn't really negate.
Konami and their approach to the game can improve as they have shown. They just dont have much incentive right now
I think they can simply keep things as is but support tournaments for older formats. They can simply say ok archetypes that are above X set can't be played, emphasis on archetypes. You can still play support for older archetypes and stand alone power cards, revitalizing the format in that way. Then go from there to make a banlist.
I don't want to see everything Divided into sets and have this confusion that magic has were you would see a card pick a card now you have to find in which format it can be played to play on said queue. Or make a deck then see that it can't be played and try to find the one card that doesn't work.
If I wanted that feeling, I can simply code.
The pricing point I don't think is true, cuz I've played games with rotation like this. In YGO, staples DO retain value for like fucking forever, honestly. Only when there's a super accessible reprint like in a Structure Deck do they actually plummet in value, but by that time you probably got its value and then some. In Pokemon, where imo there are way less demand for competitive compared to YGO by some miles, the card pool that's actually good changes so drastically per rotation that you pretty much have to buy a new deck every single set. Even though immediately it's cheap to make a Pokemon deck (also their ratios are way better, and their alt arts usurp all the price, which is a nuance that is heavily missed here that YGO needs to look into copying), because the set rotation literally sets the value of your previous deck to literal cents, it's way costly to upkeep.
At least in YGO, I can work with less optimal staples, but the side deck usually stays similar and common cards often getting cheaper alternatives, and extra deck mons also stay relevant for a while once they're just the best in that slot. Around half the deck doesn't cost me anything if I plan on playing for years. You just don't get that in other card games
Don't even get me started on digital shit though. In those, your old cards aren't even worth cents, and you'll be lucky if they can at least let you just disintegrate the cards you've grown attached to.
It's not a clean cut subject, even in little points like this. I don't mind set rotation but I hate it when people just mention it without realizing that it's not just some obviously better thing. I played too many different TCGs to know there are some ghastly periods entirely caused by rotation and nothing else. Vanguard has the occasional reset button rotation in which the new format ranges from literally killed the game to saved the entire game. Pokemon has the chunk rotation with the lettering on the bottom left, with D just getting rotated out recently, which killed the top deck of the format and the 2nd best deck losing nothing. Shadowverse has the set by set rotation but hilariously in that game, the most recent 1-2 sets are the only ones that end up mattering, and they're currently in a 2 deck format that sucks balls, even though back when I played the most, it was really interesting and diverse.
People can say, oh, those games just do set rotation badly. Like... do they not consider a situation where YGO implements set rotation badly? Even MTG has really really really bad set rotation to the point where their most popular format is freaking commander, which I think really hurt the competitive scene, as cool as it is. I don't want people to pretend the first things that doesn't come out of people's mouths right now in the MTG circle the moment you say the word "constructed" is like "oh yeah that format..."
There are also bad eternal formats. So counterargument: having set rotation and eternal as seperate formats reduces the odds of there being no sanctioned format which one does not want to play.
@@delta3244 Yeah I hear the existence of separate formats every other post. I'd like for them to point to any card game that actually made that work long term.
Vanguard is the only one I can think of where Standard and Premium are both played. Now that's a fun story. Lemme tell you in a very short form what actually happened:
The first 3 sets of their 3rd hard rotation reset were so fucking boring with a mechanic that basically ruined the game by making already lost games... un-lost by pure RNG, that the entirety of JP basically boycotted Standard for 3-5 sets, which basically recorded some of the worst sales they've ever had. Bushiroad, the devs of Vanguard, stuck with it and picked it back up somewhat like 3 sets later, but it's still a largely hated format. Premium is the preferred format, but JP players were forced by Bushiroad to play Standard because almost all of the new cards were Standard support, and these cards were usually too weak to be used by Premium. They have to sell new packs somehow, cuz Premium format hasn't budged in a while. So now the players are kinda stuck with it, and Vanguard has seen its biggest plunge to potential death, if not for their previous record of sticking with Premium, which went through the same phase for its first 5-6 sets, where the game nearly died
Even if they manage to salvage current Standard format, they'll most likely work with the understanding that every time they rotate out a format, they're looking at about a year of loss at minimum, 2 years on average. If they didn't have their anime and their initial success, they don't survive as a card game.
But as you can see, running multiple formats isn't what it's cracked up to be. YGO is actually attempting it with Rush Duel, which is basically the type of hard reset that fans seem to want, and it's decently successful, but ultimately, it's forever labelled a side format. You just cannot have 2 main formats. A lot of players get alienated by splitting formats in every single example where it has happened. MTG included. I hate it when MTG's long history of ups and downs get forgotten about
@@monkeylemur MtG, Hearthstone. MtG's multiple formats in particular have been cited as one of the best things about the game ever since players got used to the idea.
As for the Vanguard example and how it demonstrates that "running multiple formats isn't what it's cracked up to be," you have described a situation where there was effectively just one format. So, good job demonstrating that having multiple formats isn't necessarily a benifit games can reliably get for free, you can certainly make a strong arugment out of that, but... no to the argument you did make? You cannot claim that 'having multiple formats was the problem' after stating that the problem was that only one format could be played in practice.
MtG has had Standard as "the primary format" for a long time, but that has never stopped the majority of the playerbase from prefering a different one, e.g. modern, commander.
"A lot of people get alienated by splitting formats..." - good point. Counterpoint: a lot of new players get alienated from Yugioh by its complexity, speed, and/or learning curve, and the presence of an officially sanctioned format with a limited cardpool and simpler interactions could mitigate that to the point where new players ultimately replace the old players lost to rotation. If that happens, it's overall positive, because games need to reliably attract new players to survive indefinitely.
Alternative counterpoint: people kept getting upset at new summoning mechanics in Yugioh. People just complain about change, this is not a fact unique to introducing set rotation. See MtG's history for many examples of people complaining and saying "the game is now dead" in all kinds of different situations, to the point where there are multiple saterical videos and articles dedicated to the topic, including Wizard's "Twenty Things that were going to Kill Magic" released in 20th aniversery week magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/twenty-things-were-going-kill-magic-2013-08-01. That's at least one fatal threat to MtG per year! See so-called Yugiboomers for similar takes. It is worth noting that the introduction of standard produced the largest upcry over those 20 years, and it's also worth noting that it worked. There's merit to your point that set rotation alienates players, but there's also merit to mine that set rotation can solve problems.
@@delta3244 MTG and HS are the 2 biggest card games in existence for physical and virtual card games respectively. The only reason they can make it work (and only barely at times), is because of their huge size and nostalgia factor. Every single other card game has struggled or busted with rotation. The reason why MTG and HS do rotation formats is not for balance or the playerbase, it's specifically because they can afford to incentevice and demand that the players buy new product regularly to keep up, because they have such a huge player base. Rarely can other card games support that.
@@Yous0147 Pokemon also does it, of course it's popular. Yugioh is very popular and has been around for quite a while. MtG introduced rotation for the sake of powering down the game. I'm _fairly_ sure Hearthstone did so as well, but I'm not too familiar with that game's history - I can look this up, if you'd like.
EDIT: "of course Pokemon is popular" was not intended to imply "...because of set rotation." It does somewhat because of how I wrote it, ignore that. I am not trying to say Pokemon's card game is popular because of set rotation.
I really should watch Joshua's reaction video before watching the actual magical hats episode HAHAHAHAHA
There's a point around the 47 minute mark about the burden of knowledge new players have for getting into the game. And I've been definitely feeling that lately.
And man the crazy part about this game is that so many cards so 'go fetch a card' either add or send or special and to properly judge these cards you need to be familiar with the targets.
Basically every Extra Deck monster is the same way(I think in this way generic boss monsters are at least helpful at shrinking this list down)
Then there's a pile of traps(mostly only against those set 5 decks) and hand traps you need to learn. Then there's a ton of little ruling and edge cases to learn.
So much to dig into that just isn't printed on the cards on field.
I know this is 8 months old, but I wholeheartedly agree. I've been playing this game since the very beginning and still struggle with this simply because you can't just know the card, you have to know the deck, the targets etc.
Every deck is like 40 cards, 3 effects each with insane lawyerspeak effects and with multiple lines of play. It's like having to learn the game almost from zero and memorizing it until it's mostly muscle memory to enjoy the deck properly.
I struggle with picking up new decks because every new deck is a lot of learning and practice until I get comfortable enough to actually get to "play".
So I often stick to decks I'm comfortable with already instead of exploring other options.
I would love to see a Yugituber look at discussions for the creation of Type 2 for MtG.
It's no coincidence that so many long-lasting TCGs have rotating formats.
@@negate-07 So you missed the "long lasting" part of the comment?
Most TCGs don't/didn't have a rotation format because they were discontinued before it became feasible.
The other Great part of Set Rotation is that Generic Staples receive regular REPRINTS keeping the game accesible.
For example, Pokémon constantly reprints useful cards like Ultra Ball, and Professor’s Research.
Including designing stunningly beautiful Full Art/ Alternate art designs which hold their value regardless of how many reprints the card of that name gets.
If Pokémon Were Yu-Gi-Oh! Professor’s Research (discard your hand draw 7) would have had 1 secret rare short print a year ago which would mean only people willing to invest 700 dollars in the game can access it, gate keeping casual play and creating an unfair power imbalance against new or less wealthy players.
If AA - Zeus is still meta relevant but it’s going out of rotation next set, that means Konami would need to print a new AA- Zeus in the next set to allow players to keep using it. Maybe even being printed as a common, because let’s be honest. It’s one of the most played cards of all time it’s like the center space in a game of bingo.
The failure of Yu-Gi-OH up until this point has been refusing to differentiate between cards for collecting and cards with gaming utility.
I hope this next set represents Yugioh finally diversifying the Rarity options in the TCG and offering multiple rarities of the same card in each card set so that capitalist pigs can play their starlight prospy’s and the game can grow and be embraced by new generations for kids who can play their uncommon pot of prosperities.
My issue with set rotation is that the company dictates what you play, what staples you have access to, and what sets you can choose your card pool from. This would mean that the out-of-nowhere decks and pile decks that were NOT on the radar would disappear. Secret techs would die.
You described a banlist there.
Set rotation is making a second format not replacing the only one we have. People acting like every game that has Rotation doesn't also have Non-rotation as a format, with people playing 30 year old cards in it.
@@Heoltor No. A banlist is specifically to dissalow game breaking cards. They're not to dictate which cards you play, in fact, you never see old but lower powered cards being excluded to dictate what people play, it's to dictate a level playing field.
Every card game with rotation, has its non-rotation counterpart suffer because newer released cards are designed with rotation in mind and end up breaking non rotation formats. No one wants to play a broken format, so it's either dealing with it, dealing with rotation or bust.
And so it would not be the format for you. There would also be a legacy format that will be supported
We littarly have this with power creep. Remember spyral
Pile decks should die anyways.
I like that random old cards can be played again. For example I bought exosis stuff after being out and I found some/most of my highschool cards that werent worth selling when I quit And I had necrovalley and secret villages.
But that can still exist with rotation. Konami knows those cards exist and work with the Exosister strat; all that has to happen is for those cards to be printed within the rotation of Exosister. Rotation happens on a rolling clock, not in blocks
@@d33pw3115 wouldn't work for decks like Zombies, Dinos, Earth Machine, Cyberse pile etc. Set rotation will require Konami not only to more actively engage with their game, but also completely restructure their card and archetype design.
The Shallow Grave is a good card in Exosister because when both of you summon monster from GY by this effect, you can trigger your Sister's effect.
@@kindlingking but that’s the thing. They probably will. Cards that are staples to overarching play patterns will have a good chance of seeing reprints in rotation blocks. Splash Mage, Fossil Dig, and whatever else you can think of aren’t guaranteed to get reprinted, but if Konami deems them important enough to and think they are integral to retaining the playerbase then they likely will.
I frickin flodgates BAAAAAAAT
As a rogue player, The cool thing about mitigating power creep with set rotation is your old decks can still compete with the new decks in the non-rotating format because the power level has stayed relatively the same.
I'm curious, have you experienced this or are you suggesting it as an idea? From what I see, not in MTG, neither in Pokemon is this true. New cards are always better than older cards, with or without rotation.
@@Yous0147 the lifespan of a deck in modern/vintage etc is significantly longer than the lifespan of a deck in a standard set. The only big thing that has shaken up modern drastically was modern horizons, a set that got huge flack for being nothing but powercreep and illiciting bans. Even so you still have pet decks everywhere. Goblins, Tron, Elves, Delver, affinity, dredge etc have been decks forever and will continue to be. Haven't played pokemon so idk what it's like over there
@@Yous0147 I have played the same modern deck in MTG for 15 years and still regularly top large events
Floodgates being in the game is not the fault of lack of Set Rotation. Konami can still set rotate and then print new floodgates. Truth of the matter is Konami wants and is okay with floodgates being in the game. If they hated it, they could easily ban every single competitively viable floodgates. I would have definitely did that if I was in charge of the TCG banlist, just ban any card that could create unfun unskillful no games.
And in regards to set rotation making the game cheaper, that's not true. As much as people hate me for saying this, Yugioh cards being expensive is the proof that people care about this game and that this game is very successful. Everytime Konami puts a new product, people eat it up like candy and there is a lack of products on the market despite demand being huge so the prices go crazy.
A lot of failing TCGs and businesses in general reduce their prices of their products because there is too much product on the market that they thought would sell but isn't selling at all so in a desperate attempt to cut losses they reduce the prices.
This felt like overhearing a bunch of 10 year olds trying to argue with their physics teacher about the merits and disadvantages of nuclear energy. HOLY SHIT are coder, farfa and gage clueless.
The problem is with what has been found in MTG, is that set rotation / multiple formats has substaintially diluted the pool for each format in the form of taking players. This becomes a problem for competitive integrity, and then it snowballs into loss of players. MTG for example was fine (somewhat) with standard, modern, legacy. But then wizard's smart assess decided to include commander and pioneer. This has made standard, the premier format intially for the last two years, is now having a miniscule playrate, pioneer is basically dead, and legacy doesn't get reprints along with modern, so it's exspensive af because Yugioh does what MTG does not -> print cards multiple times in different rarities. The other argument is where you talk about the price being LESS in standard than yugioh's current design. In rotation, decks are sure, cheaper because the cards themselves are "weaker", but when we toss this back to the other formats where cards compete against EVERY card made in the game the last 20 years, it makes a card triple the price if it's being competed for due to demand, so unless we print out a crazy amount of the card, it'll be damaging for older and newer players alike, but then we ask a budget player to update staple rares ON TOP OF THIS ALL, and we actually make them shell out much, much more, so it's absolutely cap that it's the opposite, as it's been analyzed in every cardgame known with a rotation. It'll only make the rotation 2-year format have slightly less cost temporarily, until the cards are good enough to be played in the eternal formats / legacy. This will in turn, make it so that Konami most likely would print less older cards, meaning it'll be more expensive on the older formats as well, causing a chain-reaction forever, permanently damaging cost-effectiveness of your spending. It doesn't matter if it's slightly lower cost for your rotation temporarily, we will get more problems with flawed card design / careful design to prevent powercreep, overall cost increase substantially etc.
My problem is somewhat similar, though, from a different lens.
Konami hasn't officially supported a single alternative format in YGO since its creation; in the past 25 years, we've only had a singular format for the game.
If YGO gets set rotation, Konami would only support "Standard", so using the argument that "MTG has other officially supported formats, so Konami would to" is extremely weak. And this is despite the hunger for alternative formats in YGO is growing.
Personally, I play old archetypes that absolutely don't get reprints, like Noble Knights, Darklords, Gravekeepers, and some others. So, telling me I can't play them in even a locals makes me completely disinterested in the game. It's one of the reasons why I absolutely refuse to play Pokemon and despise MTG.
@@Practitioner_of_Diogenes Speed Duel is an alt format that works.
@@geek593 And who plays that?
And how long did speed duel last
I really love that this topic set the war not just in MBT's video but also in Josh' chat, comparing from the previous magical hats reaction
"there's record attendance now why risk that?", well what if set rotation makes attendance even better, this episode is painful because of so many different trash takes
44:40 yeah I don't know the history of MTG rotation but with hearthstone it's pretty simple. After a few years there were a handful of generic cards (no deck building requirement) that were just better than every other card at their mana cost, so they rotated them out so they could make cards people actually wanted to try using.
Both HS and MTG also use a core set for each rotation in addition to the expansions that come out. The core set usually has a bunch of necessary staples like removal and card draw, tech cards, and archetype specific cards to reopen that design space.
Standard is not the main magic format lmao, that format sucks balls. Commander is the most popular format now, which is basically 100 of your favorite cards the deck.
I mean I don’t get how people wouldn’t want rotation. The Battle Phase, Trap cards, Pendulums and Tuners are all mechanics that barely matter as of now.
Pretty easy... they dont know the concept . Everything that came out of gage and coder was ignorant. Coder basically gave points FOR rotation. Gage is just a Konami sl*ve to be fair. Every take he has everything he does is licking konamis shoes so no surprise there. If konami says tomorow that they make a new rotation format gage will be the first one saying how great the idea seems to be. Coder just didnt do his research thats all. He is not stupid he is just lazy and arrogant..
???
All of them matter.
Kashtira has Battle Phase effects. Trap Cards are frequently seen, with two archetypes that support Trap Cards making up meta decks together with those Trap Cards.
Tuners are found in rogue and Tier 2 decks, as are Pendulum Monsters. Superheavy Samurai will have its support soon, and it uses both.
The battle phase does matter…? Kashtira has battle phase effects.
Labyrinth is a top deck right now, a whole trap card.
Pendulums? Shs is breaking them in the ocg rn.
Tuners are useless? This just… doesn’t make any sense
@@megaspacewaffles dont forget imperm and evenly matched!! Trap cards are all over the place. Why print more trap cards we just play those 10 everyone plays and the rest can just rest in piece as soon as they are printed.
@@Pkey995 not true.
A lot of archtypes get solid trap cards. Volcanic just got a really good one. I’m certain we’ll keep getting good traps. Like there are entire decks dedicated to traps
Yo where did Joseph get that lulu shirt i want one
Who else saw the title and though they were going to discuss the card Set Rotation? 😂
My favorite format for Yu-Gi-Oh! was BA/Shaddoll/Qli/Satellarknights - there was room for combos and the game could end on any one turn but there was also so much interruption that you just had to manage resources.
Set rotation may be a good idea for the game. My biggest issue is Konami is still designing cards today that do not adhere to logical card design rules:
Hard once per turn. Cards with a few effects. Banlist incorporation. Archetype locked cards. A lot of these are absent.
Konami is extremely bad at balancing cards, and not necessarily due to powercreep because they will release old archetype support that are either dog water, a nice evolution, or absolutely cracked. The variance is extremely high and you can easily tell which ones are designed well and which ones they didn't put 5 minutes into the design for it.
Also, the game was in a healthy, logically evolving state, and Konami released Pendulum which should've been its own game. And now we have to live with it to either be subpar trash or completely and utterly broken. They even released Links with a restriction on how Extra decks could be utilized before Konami walked it back with the current Master Rules. And take a look at Rush Duels and its popularity. Konami is throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks or loses committment to growing pains.
All of these issues with set rotations are definitely resolved by simplifying card text and setting an upper limit of power and design cards for their particular archetype. But I don't think Konami is capable of handling it. They aren't going to be able to handle set rotation and they're going to break the game by not understanding where their cards should be tuned. Or it would take years to appropriately adjust before it can really take off that I think they're going to walk back and appeal to their players... when they listen (but when do they ever?)
Konami is the most anti-consumer. Deaf. Contemptuous towards their customer company. Them and gamefreak are run by semi-literate cocaine addicted chimpanzees.
I mean, that's just how you see balancing, so of course Konami is not good at YOUR idea of balancing. I really like soft once per turn for example. I rather my card have weaker effects that I can find ways to activate multiple times then to have one big effect and thats it.
Also, I like cards with multiple effects.
Proof that konami game desing isnt as bad as you think is the longevity of the game. Just look at other card games... Hearthstone now has less than 1/10th of the playerbase it once had (if not less), and they follow almost all of the design notes you suggest.
I think saying that konami doesn't "adhere to logical card design rules" is inherently wrong.
There is no formula for a good design, only what you like and what you don't like
The question EVERYONE is asking at 6:03
The only issue I have with set rotation is the idea of split events. I live in the worst area imaginable for Yu-Gi-Oh. Thus say I’m a extended player but the only event going on close enough that I can travel to I’d standard I’m kinda fucked.
I stopped playing both pokemon and MTG because of set rotation. Specially in MTG, singles were too expensive; like kashtira on release expensive, then the format rotated and my deck was unplayable so I thought to play commander only to find out that it's even more expensive, so it wasn't really on my best interest to keep playing.
You don't need to buy the most expensive cards if you don't play at the highest level,
Set rotation or not people get priced out of the game.
as someone that played standard magic. when my deck rotated i just shrugged and started playing it in modern.
Damn, I wonder if yugioh has cards that are as expensive as Kashtira
Yeah it’s called the 2 year curse it’s a very common issue with TCGs they just have set rotation because well you gotta be like magic and the game dies 2 years later because the early adopters see there money wasted when the format rotates and are forced to shell out for a deck deck
Watching chat during this episode hurts.
Thank you stream chat, for summarizing how rotation works and why Magic the Gathering is capable of retaining old players AND onboarding new ones.
Also literally every argument chat presents against rotation is exactly solved by HOW ROTATION WORKS. Our current format, "Advanced", becomes Magic's equivalent of "Legacy". Even the ban list for Advanced can stay. For the love of fucking god ROTATION IS ITS OWN FORMAT. IT IS ADJACENT TO THE CURRENT STANDARD FORMAT, NOT A REPLACEMENT.
still disappointed that nobody made a joke that we already have set rotation since 2017... it came out in maximum crisis!
after hearing everyone else's opinions on set rotation i understand why MBT said it was the last one lol, saying set rotation prevents X from being played is stupid, they just have to reprint whatever they intend the players to play.
Yeah with a rotation even if they reprint some old cards in a set to promote new support for 3 set time frame that they have until all those cards aren't legal again, I'm still locked into that archtype. What if I'm not interested in any of the archtypes that's out but the ones I am interested in that works for my play style is no longer legal for competitive play?
I've seen a couple videos about power creep in the Pokemon TCG to try and keep things fresh bc set rotation isn't enough to keep interest. This isn't a solution to power creep, ultimately it boils down to good and ineresting design/decks but even then it's rough.
Set rotation at least slows down power creep and allows for (relatively) easily excecuted power downs whenever power creep gets excessive
@@delta3244My entire point is that it isn't a panacea. W/O set rotation Konami has done a bad job with designing sets that go way too far and they are far too hesitant to bring down the ban hammer. With set rotation they still need to carefully manage reprints and fine tune new cards to avoid the same problems. Fan favorite decks always introduce the risk that you'll make something accidentally OP elsewhere. Regardless of the path, good design and a clear vision are key.
@@alexrivera8239 We agree on that point
Also Magic has been getting really power crept in the last few years, we are atlking that if your deck can't win on turn 3 or 4 then the deck is just not good enough, that wasn't a thing not even that long ago, also you can't tell me MTG isn't Power Crept when stuff like Ragavan exist.
Pokemon is the prime example of how a rotation can curb the power level of a format.
The X and Y block was notorious for being too fast and focused on big basic and simply releasing the sun and moon era sets wont fix the balance (case in point expanded), the post rotation SuMo on format was slower amd more skill based with decks like zoro control and stuff.
I am fine with archetype rotation but there is no reason to rotate out generic spells and traps or generic good monsters like pankratops
Pokémon and Magic both reprint generic staples so in theory, so would Yugioh
That’s the thing though: if Dinowrestlers got rotated out, that would mean bye bye Pankratops since it’s a Dinowrestler. Cards like Accesscode, Barrone, and Feather Duster would all be out too if Code Talkers, Fleur, and Harpies got rotated out as well. So no matter how generic it would be, it would be rotated out if it’s tied to an archetype.
There is a reason: it allows for formats with peculiarities. For example, there could be a format where Smashing Ground is the best monster removal, there's an easily used spell searcher for redundancy (which could probably never exist if all generic good spells stay legal) and monsters are balanced around how easy they are to remove with it.
@@XerxesTheUndead They could literally reprint anything they want into a format. Just because a particular decktype gets rotated out doesn't mean Konami is obligated to remove EVERY card tied to that deck. They could rotate out Dinowrestlers and Harpies but reprint Pank and Duster into a new set because they want them in that block. Arguments based on arbitrary limitations aren't substantial.
Generics need to go the most. We're at a critical mass of staples and every time a new playable spell or trap gets printed it either needs to be better than all of the ten or so playable cards that fill that same niche or it needs to directly hit a meta deck. We have so many board breakers and s/t removal that all do similar things but slightly better or with niche improvements. Sucking out half of the list and concentrating on a few good ones would do wonders for the game.
Hey Josh thanks for uploading this reaction and opinion on the topic. I was really waiting for it!, also please upload your reaction to the new monster type announced!
It is genuinely difficult to not assume bad faith by everyone in this discussion except for MBT. Because I refuse to believe that the other 3 are trying to have this discussion without the most fundamental understanding of how it has been made to work in other games while kneejerking and equating the implementation of Set Rotation with going back to the stone age of Yugioh.
Given the discussion is about how Konami would implement it I doubt there far off
Don’t exactly have a great track record when they start meddling (remember this is the company that told you to pay for a safe slot)
I only have one problem with set rotation....I dont really want to be told what decks I can play. It is why I play yugioh, if i want to play some garbo deck and go 1-3 at locals thats on me.
Yeah why deny the beaver warrior turbo enjoyers there right to play
My Branded deck on EDO is named "Alister, is that you..." so I feel you.
The core set idea is perfect. I. "brothers war" the core set replacement recently in magic, they reprinted monetary swiftspear. It is a beloved, low to the ground aggressive creature that can still be a mid game threat, and by printing it into standard they allow people to play with it in standard. Printing it now also legalised it for one of the "younger" non rotating formats called Pioneer. The reprint is cool, puts the card in new formats and let's fans vibe with a card they like with some cool new theme appropriate art
I get it, but also of note swiftspear was printed in khans block so it was already legal in pioneer. I get the point but just a tid bit.
@@jerryturgin6583 yeah my bad I meant explorer in arena since it was tilting that you couldn't play it in mono red there
Meh, i like that yugioh has the freedom to use what cards you want, from a blackwing deck that cant keep up with todays meta, to the top meta decks today. If blackwings get ruined then so be it but thats that players freedom/ choice to do that.
I think more preemptive hits on banlists would help a lot. Try and hit problems, that we KNOW are going to be problems, before they happen would be wonderful.
So. What. “Announcing power of the elements.” If you pull a Kitkallos you can’t play it.
They just need to play test this crap and design the game right the first time
@@isidoreaerys8745Yes and you're absolutely correct.
I would like to see set rotation implemented in some form. It’ll 100% take the backseat to the current progression format. But I’d still like to see it none the less. If only to halt power creep, text increase, and various other problems
Konami should 100% release a new format with rotation but call it something else, like uh...battle pack format, where they make sets with restricted and selective card pools meant to create a simplier format that players can pick up and play, and then keep supporting that format until the sets rotate and vice versa.
I've watched this video so many times but I'm so perplexed that Gage someone who plays magic the gathering doesn't understand how this works properly
I would love set rotation, but the sets have to be more LCGish: cheap, everything guaranteed or extremely high pull ratios for everything.
Or, multiple rarities.
Yugioh- pot of prosperity has been printed twice. Still is extremely expensive gatekeeping young or fiscally responsible players from competetive viability.
Pokémon- professors research, a draw seven consistency booster sees a reprint in almost every expansion everyone can access it in an uncommon but they also reprint stunning full art high rarity prints with fan favorite professors which fetch a very high price for collectors.
Stupid ass Yugioh treats us like cards that are powerful should be harder to obtain and more rare.
Which is fucked up. Pay to win. Anti consumer. Toxic. Cuckoldry for the chucklefucks who play along with it.
It’s the opposite. The more necessary a card. The more it should be available to all players so that there is a fair playing field for deck building and high level play is not gate kept to cucks who spend 700 dollars on cardboard twice a year.
Joshua is always here to say the best of takes.
On another note- yugioh will eventually burn out due to power creep and it will be unplayable. So in my opinion nuking the entire game towards a reset could be healthy for longevity.
Did you said that during zoo?
41:53 why not? Boy I sure would to be living in Philly where it’s standard but I don’t have a standard deck and I can’t afford to go to New York where it’s expanded.
My dogshit take: I hate feeling like my progress is being artificially reset in games. If you've ever played Destiny, or any Arpg like Diablo, every 3 months or so you have to farm all of your gear from scratch. I see this as the same thing as set rotation, I just hate not being able to use my collection of cards to experiment with the new stuff
Well then you could just play the legacy format.
@@BramLastname agree. People are too focused on the perspective that they are going to *forced* to play the rotating format. The reality is that adding a rotation gives players the *option* to choose a higher power or lower power format.
If I can choose to play 2 or 3 entirely different card games semi-competitively, the average player can reasonably enjoy 2 formats of the same game.
@@江建国-p9q people are more likely to like at least 1 format if there's more than 1 format,
Yet half the people in the comments refuse to look past the "MaH bLu EYeS" argument,
Which is so tiresome.
@@BramLastname I never said I wouldn't, I was just giving my perspective
@@Salati00so none of what you said is applicable to the discussion.
Because either you believe Set Rotation = No Legacy Format
Or you are willingly misrepresenting the argument.
I think josh should have a discussion with kevin about set rotations and how they work
It would be cool but not with our current card distribution. Part of the allure of pet decks is I put like 60-80 dollars USD into my rouge deck and I can play it till the day I die and you can use it as a gauge to see if you like this format enough to get seriously competitive with it. But if you want to be super competitve you'd have to spend $300+ dollars on a new deck every time it rotates. That'll be a gripe for returning players. Unless they adopt and less predatory way of releasing their cards, this game will become a money trap for western audiences more so under rotation than it already is.
You have to spend $300 dollars now if you want to be super competitive because of power creep.
No way someone is going to look at the newest release and decide “actually i think Burning Abyss is the best deck this format”
No. The best decks will always be the newest cards out.
Rotation would actually lead to more reprints and makes decks more affordable.
Yugioh TCG has a price gouging problem regardless.
Not everyone plays wcs your locals could be super casual but if you local only supports rotation then it doesn’t help you
I don't get this episode
Does mbt want rotation to be a side format like Farfa
Or does he want it to be the ONLY format/the main one
Isn’t the Banlist what’s supposed to help with true power creep?
100% yugioh could have formats. Core sets with all staples that could be used. With blocks of sets to be used.
This would require correct design of old and new cards because it could send yugioh into a very clear cut best deck no matter what. it also could be healthy and possibly toxic to force player to dig deep in the vault on what to build.
Similar annoyingly.
For MTG. Mainstream tournament rotational formats.
Standard- tends to have clear strategies that are simply superior ( only core set with blocks of sets are legal) requires players to constantly buy new product to keep up with standard formats. Which yugioh player are used too anyways.
Pioneer- a constructed format from x set forward w/ banned list.
Modern- a constructed format from x year before pioneer w/ banned list
Legacy- all sets w/ banned list. Legacy is most similar to current yugioh.
One thing that makes me suspicious of set rotation is the lazyness of konami to get more designers to make a good well designed set, because its one thing designing a deck/card but a format actually requires a lot more effort that these big billionairies company dont want to expend their precious money on, even if it brings them more return in the future.
If powercreep is the only reason to push for a rotation,why not utilize the banlist more?
Limit and semi limit a bunch of cards.Wouldn't that also stop powercreep from happening? Instead of limiting like 4 cards every banlist why not limit like 25 to bring down the powerlevel, if thats the concern...
I like being able to play my pet deck or to have access to play every card ever printed.That's what keeps me in yugioh
@@derohneleben8205 You'd need a banlist that's about 10 miles long and hits about 50 cards per update
@Ekkk take tearlaments for an example,by far the best deck yugioh has ever seen.The went a bit more drastic with it on the banlist.The deck is still playable, but the powerlevel is much fairer.
Imagine they would take that approach with more decks.You dont have to hit everything to be of the level of goat decks being the best,but you can surely always reset by a 1 year or two.Also the semi limit list would help a ton with adjusting power levels
@@derohneleben8205I think Edison is a lower power format than Goat. Panda Burn, Chaos Turbo, Warriors, Beastdown and Cat Barrel kill or seal the game by turn 5
I feel that rather than adding Set Rotation into the OCG/TCG (which is what I feel the question really is), they could begin the inclusion of an official secondary format, we'll call it Under Powered.
They'll have to start with finding a sweet spot with the power scaling for it, something that allows most decks to compete. I think the best way to do that is to go further and tier off the rogue category (don't know how many you would use) and finding the middle as the power ceiling. Decks of any higher power can come down to this level with limitations and probably most, if not all decks would be in here with some hits anyway. I would doubt anything was 100% intact that wasn't Iron Chain. Same with those Main and Extra Deck staples getting hit or nuked outright.
It would also mean that depending on power, new releases are absolutely applicable to being put into Under Powered, which wouldn't absolutely mess up the current state of Yu-Gi-Oh. They won't have to consider making cards for two formats, they can go however chase card hungry they want without having resort to a complete overhaul of how to conduct business. The open market might see some crazy shit possibly.
Ultimately the idea being as many decks as possible are able to be competitive at this tier, but there's a lot of theory and play testing that no one would ever commit to in order to check the power for this but hey, I'll take "week one Master Duel" format forever if I can get it. There's probably a whole host of things I'm overlooking with this idea.
The only thing that would make me quit Yugioh is a mana system. It’s the entire reason I like Yugioh more than magic or Pokémon.
The "old card comes back" argument would only apply to the rotating format.
I presume that Komoney would have at least one eternal format as well as the rotating format.
in every card game with rotation I've seen and played the legacy format is completely neglected
@@Jaice00 Atlest in Pokemon Expanded was fine and supported untill they screwed the pooch and made 'Tag Team' cards that masive single birst power creep ireversably damiged the format to the point it got abandoned from offical events. GLC is kind of taking its place as secoundary formant in many offical events now.
@@Jaice00 What do you mean by neglected?
For example WotC puts out stuff for both their paper eternal formats and are rolling out Remasters and other "Historic/Alchemy only" sets for MTG Arena.
I think a hybrid model would be cool. Where archetype cores are printed in eternal sets (reinoheart, havnis, scheiren) and the busted stuff would be printed in rotation sets (think kitkallos, planet, elf)
So if you want to play Tear in eternal you need to buy twice the product? Yeah, because Konami's image as being too greedy for money isn't bad enough already.
@@claire6452 Eternal product would always be legal. You don't need to rebuy it.
I would also say that if cards are reprinted in a rotated set then previous printings would be legal for that format. In other words all old printings of a card that are printed in a "rotated in" set are legal for play.
So no. You wouldn't have to rebuy anything
Edit: to be clear these aren't separate formats. It's two types of product for the same format.
@@scottwheler177 You don't get it. You'd need to buy both sets to play only one format. Don't be dense. I'm not talking about buying the same set twice.
@@claire6452 Why are you acting like support doesn't currently come out in multiple sets?
@@scottwheler177 Support yes. Not the strategy. You can't be this stupid, can you?
If I open POTE right now, I can play tear. You're suggesting splitting that even more to the point where nothing in one set is playable unless you also open the set from the format you don't care about. Wow. What a great idea.
When done well, even some shitty common/uncommon cards can be standard viable. In mtg, these cards see play pretty much only in standard and are getting opened a ton for chase rare cards, so they end up being very cheap. People often talk about how once you buy staples in yugioh, you don’t have to spend a ton to change your decks up. With a well-curated, lower power level standard format, you could also have a lot of generic staples that won’t rotate because the get reprinted.
True. And not like your set of ash blossoms and effect veilers can carry your deck. The big money you are paying is always in the form of 3-of Core stapes which konami frequently only releases in secret rarity in the sets. Meaning you have to pay hundreds to actually try out a new deck archetype.
In response to opening comments, imagine a standard format where Maxx C is legal, but decks deal in extra normal summons rather than specials, with the only exceptions being so-called inherent summons. That has the potential to be really cool, if done well! And they can print a single floodgate into a format, like Skill Drain, alongside counters to it e.g. quickplay spells that tribute your monster cards for a strong benifit. Konami could make the frustrating cards as cool as they deserve to be this way!
Personally, I'd love to see another format where the Dragon Rulers are viable but there are more than 2 decks, just because I like the deck's playstyle and play patterns (plus, cool dragons are cool. There's a part of me that loves the meta flavor of those elemental lords getting out of their assigned decks and teaming up to be arguably the strongest thing in the game at the time, especially since the way their abilities interact makes it feel like they're all friends and constantly helping one another. But maybe I'm weird there).
If you wish to argue that Konami could, but wouldn't, do good things with set rotation, go ahead. I will not argue against you on that matter. I will just say that Konami would not be able to make mistakes which prevent them from _ever_ trying a cool idea with set rotation, and Konami occasionally makes something cool.
Unrelated, the fact that this series is ending for having had X episodes rather than running out of ideas is the best argument against set rotation in the video.
edit - nothing substantial, I just literally forgot to include a few words. There was a sentence similar to "I have fun playing because they're intricate, complicated, technical games."
rotation seems pointless Yugioh already has heavy emphasis on the newer archtypes being the strongest ones, its like a soft rotation, the whole reason I quit physical MtG is because my large collection of cards I collected year 1 immediately became entirely worthless
"Splitting the community is not the way to go" The community is already split between TCG, OCG, Rush Duels, Master Duel and Duel Links
true
Nobody plays anything but TCG/OCG and MD GTFO.
We’ve already reached the point where we need set rotation. Look at tearlaments and the ishizu cards, they banned all of them because they had to be better.
I really like your opinions and how you explain them.
The thing is, card games with rotation will always want a nonrotating format, even if it's just a casual format, so does would establishing rotation really help power creep in YGO? It's almost like they have the skeleton of a casual anything goes format and what they need to do is establish a rotating format specifically for competitive.
Maybe what they could do is print into a time wizard format. Create new cards and decks that can play well in Edison, and hey if some find their way into standard then that's pretty fun, but essentially I think they have to think of it opposite of other card games. Magic has a competitive standard that branched off into casual non-rotating formats, but YGO can look at is as their current standard should be the casual and what they need to really establish is a competitive format that's not only fun for players but fun for spectators too with a lot of back and forth interaction.
Yugioh has already proved Rotation can work and thats in Duel Links / Speed Duels. The first set had a mix of old and new cards, like Sphere Kuriboh beside Blue-Eyes. We are currently in a Link era in DL without ever seeing say, Shaddoll release. We got DAD in the Link era, etc. Yugioh, and card games in general, are so multifaceted that you could compile a random list of cards for a format and I guarantee it would still be fun to play/solve. I think its fascinating how strategies can form without X or Y card. Salamangreat, for example, adores/adored Meer in Duel Links, when it never bat an eye at it in the TCG. The biggest boon these formats provide imo is redefining what an archetype’s strategy is or can be using the cardpool it has at its disposal
In fact, I think DL shouldve done more with the platform at a faster pace. It wouldve been perfect if, in that same realm of early DL, we had cards like Grenosaurus, Pentestag, Mighty Warrior, etc. A card like Heatleo would be awesome for an early power level FIRE deck and we would see the card be played in a way that it never has been seen before.
The Episode was SHOULD YU-GI-OH HAVE SET ROTATION? not What are the 1000 things can be changed to make YU-GI-OH! better
People that don't try, will never succeed.
Also learning to play, doesn't mean Top Cut at Tier 3 events....
Would love to see set rotation and have a standard format around the power level of Edison. And the modern game can continue to exist as “advanced”.