My Dad's B-17 was shot down on this mission. He was top turret gunner on Michigan Air Force from the 385th BG. 42-3539 tail number. Dad was wounded and became POW in Stalag 17B. Also right waist gunner and ball turret gunner were KIA. The copilot drown evading capture. Thank you for making this video..
I'm British. Here in the UK, there used to be a celebrity comedian named Michael Bentine. He'd been an RAF intelligence officer in WW2, tasked with debriefing returning crews. One day a USAAF commander said Bentine could come in an observation aircraft for a look-see at the returning B17s. They formated on a badly-damaged B17, limping along at low altitude, shot to pieces. Bentine saw lots of red fluid, dribbling out of the cannon holes and along the side of the fuselage. Bentine asked, "Is that hydraulic fluid?" The USAAF officer replied, "No, that's blood".
My unassuming shop teacher in the late 1970s. He had to bail out of his bomber twice. Somehow made it out ok. He did not talk about it to us students. But an other teacher mentioned how he, my shop teacher, had to bail out at a high altitude. High enough to render him unconscious. So when he removed mask and jumped, he had to have hoping to wake up and pull his parachute cord before he hit the ground.
My father was in the 379th (BG) Bombardment Group 1st Air Div. 8th, TSGT, Top turret "Flak Rabbit" (35 missions). These men are the reason we're here. GOD bless them all."
@@jimcallender3410 I'm in southern England. There's a farm about ten miles away which was a temporary USAAF airfield in 1944. They've got a farm shop. Drive in, pick your own fruit, get it weighed and pay. The owners erected a home-made memorial to the soldiers and airmen who served there: Hand-drawn pictures of P47s, a trough with flowers growing out of it. Life must've been miserable at that airfield, living under canvas during wet and cold weather. Taking off and landing on a wire-mesh runway. Half the cars in the car park today are German and Japanese, but that's not the point. Our countries paid the blood-price to teach those peoples to trade as rivals, not murder as monsters. Our liberty was bought by the sacrifice of our forebears. I just want to let people here know that the American sacrifice continues to be revered and respected here in the UK. I'm looking forward to this TV series being screened. If it's as good as Band of Brothers and The Pacific, we've a treat coming.
My old schoolbook said “the bombing campaign against germany went unopposed or little resistance on the German part”… man, whoever wrote that knew nothing about it
I'm so glad you profiled Robert "Rosie" Rosenthal. I first read of him in the excellent book, "Flying Fortress" by Jablonski that I read as a kid and recently found and bought the book. We lost him only a few years ago. There's also a chapter on "The Bloody 100th". What these mostly very young men did is beyond incredible. Truly our BEST generation ❤️.
In the small Memorial Chapel at Thorpe Abbotts Control Tower Museum, there is a Memorial Book where veterans have been back over and written about their friends. Robert Rosenthal is mentioned MANY times with such affection and love. One comment has always stood out for me when I have read them. It reads simply : "To Robert Rosenthal, the most Honourable man I have ever known !"
Amazing videos and storyline. My uncle was a top turret gunner and flight engineer on Blood and Guts...95th Bomb Group out of Horham. But he flew at the end of the war, completing his 25 missions in May of '45. Shot down once over Belgium with a replacement crew and landed one mile on our side of the front lines. He returned to base the next day after partying with the locals all night. His buddies looked at him like they were seeing a ghost. He had two confirmed kills but did not like to talk about it. This truly was America's greatest generation.
one of my first work bosses father was a german luftwaffe pilot, he got shot down and had flames licking his face when he jumped out of his burning plane!Wilhelm said his father had claustrophobia so bad that he couldnt even sleep in a sleeping bag and had a panic attack trying one in the 1970s during a weekend in the woods!
Rosenthal’s tail gunner “unofficially” had six kills in this mission. Ironically, none of these were official as USAAF regulations required that a second aircraft had to confirm the kill.
They had to take what the gunners said with a grain of salt. One mission over Germany the boys on the bombers claimed 276 German fighters shot down. In reality they shot down 26! So that's part of why they didn't give them credit all the time.
It was hard to verify German planes shot down even after the war and the allies had access to their records. The germans didn't count a plane shot down if the pilot survived. So if there were 15 planes shot down, they would only list 10 list if five of the pilots survived.
@@samuelhowie4543 That's not because they intentionally don't list aircraft losses, most of the War Diaries only list personell losses, not aircraft losses. So if you get something like a Pilot wounded, or Pilot with FSA (Fallschirmabsprung/Parachute jump) you can infer an aircraft loss. There is a pretty good german book called "Start im Morgengrauen - Eine Chronik vom Untergang der Deutschen Jagdwaffe im Westen 1944/1945" (Takeoff at Dawn - A Chronicle of the downfall of the German Fighterforce in the West 1944/1945), by Werner Girbig, which is well worth a read. Sadly afaik it hasn't been translated to english yet. It is a day by day account of combat operations of the "Reichsverteidigung" in 1944 to 1945. More a big picture view. It has a lot of passages from the War Diaries of the Jagdgeschwader (fighter wings).
My granny's husband was an engineer working on the aerodromes for these large bombers . I believe air crew had to make 25 missions which were terrifying , and suffered high losses .Granny had to provide support to surviving crews who were in tears .
Generals Hap Arnold and Ira Eaker were the Army Air Force leaders who denied fighter protection to the bombers of 8th air force. Drop tanks were available for P 47s and would have provided enough fuel for missions into Germany. This fighter protection was later provided in the later war years with both the Mustang and the P 47 but the lives of thousands of airmen would have been saved if these Generals were not stubbornly locked into a tragically flawed strategy.
Hap arnold was not part of 8th army air force and there is records of both of them asking for it but british commander denied there request usaaf fighter until base in France was taken did not give p47 range. P51d was only one to make from England to Berlin back again
@@tallleprechaun1318 Actually, that's a bit of a myth. It's true that the Brits seldom hit what they aimed at, or even got within a couple of miles. But the whole "precision bombing" was tied up in the politics of the Army Airforce leadership wanting to become an independent service. Like they can win the war on their own. They tied all of it to the Norden Bomb Sight, which cost a LOT of many to develop and then never delivered because there was no way to predict the wind at all the various levels. So the Eight Airforce would "bomb on lead", ie only the front guy used his sight and all other bombardiers dropped when he dropped. So you can imagine, given how large a chunk of the air was filled with this huge formation, how widely spread the impacts were, and then all the other factors like wind, bombing creep, German spoofing, all contributed to make the whole thing pretty ineffective. Check out the damage caused by Schweinfurt and Regensburg raids, ask yourself why they had to go back again and what was the total damage after it.
At no time was the Luftwaffe ever able to send up "hundreds" of defending fighters after 1943... they simply no longer had that many planes left. German records show that interceptor fighters numbered 12 to 20 aircraft per flight on average, usually a mix of fighters and fighter-bombers. Records also show that these German fighters engaged until out of feul/ammo, then landed, refuelled/rearmed, and went back up to catch the B-17s on their return trip. This may have made the number seem much greater than it actually was. Regardless, heroism on both sides to a gut-wrenching degree... they really were The Greatest Generation.
Flight International published an account of the Munster raid when I was a boy, and I think it was the first piece of wartime aviation history I ever read. I remember it began " They don't erect memorials in the sky, but if they did, there would be one shining over Munster..." . I also remember reading where one eye witness suddenly realised an entire BG had disappeared ( probably referring to the 100th). Thorpe Abbotts is just down the road from where I live, as are the two B-24 bases where James Stewart served. Plenty of ruins and artefacts still to be seen - the English countryside still hasn't reclaimed them completely.
P.K., It's good to read your comment. My father was with the 487th, 839 bs based near Lavenham. I'd like to visit the area, see the church tower, maybe the pub ,The Swan. Be well.
A couple years ago, my wife and I decided to go to Lake Havasu AZ, where the old London Bridge is located (painstakingly disassembled, shipped over, and re-assembled over the Colorado River). I was kind of stunned to walk across it and still see spalling from bomb fragments and machine gun fire from strafing. Evidence of the past surround us, even in the most unlikely of places.
@@MrJest2 Look up St.Dunstan-in-the-East, a London church that was bombed by the Luftwaffe. It has been transformed into a garden, amidst the surrounding office blocks. A lovely place to spend your lunch break.
@@codymoe4986 No. heroes for driving back pure tyrannical murderous evil while that evil power was doing everything it could to kill them and those they were protecting. You seem to have forgotten WHY there was a war and a need for bombing targets. That sort of rank foolishness could only be developed in American public schools run by ignorant leftists, I think.
My grandfather "in-law" was the pilot of the "Easy Goin" from the Bloody 100th. He was a great man and I wish I could've known him longer. He told some stories, but not the ones that hurt if he could help it. 😢
I find it quite fascinating, that at the location at about 1:50, that's where nowadays I go partying in Clubs on weekends. And juuust on the bottom mid part, that's where the Skating scene of Münster is located, at the "Skater's Palace". saw some great concerts there too. ....How times have changed.
Münster was maintained as the headquarters for the 6th Military District (Wehrkreis) of the German Wehrmacht but one of the main reasons why the Yanks targeted the railway yards in Münster was the fact that the prominent presence of the military units including SS Panzer Divisions utilising the rail hub for transport. Münster was a guaranteed Allied target. About 91% of the Old City and 63% of the entire city was destroyed by Allied air raids.
“A typical interception in the fall of 1942 has been described by Johannes Naumann, at that time the an Oberleutnant in II/JG 26. The Gruppe was ordered to attack the bombers on their return flight as there was no chance of reaching them on their bomb run. The B-17’s were flying in a staggered formation at about 26,000 feet. The Focke Wulfs finally struggled up to 27,000 feet, only to see the American formation receding into the distance. The speed of the FW 190’s at that altitude was only a little greater than that of the bombers…No bombers were downed; none had even suffered visible damage.” Top Guns of the Luftwaffe p. 125 by Donald L. Caldwell
I made several flights on the Collings Foundation's B-17 and B-24 in warm weather and at low level, it was a humbling experience and what it must have been like high over enemy territory is unimaginable. In the UK where I live now many of the old bases are shrines to the memory of those who didn't make it back.
Thank you very much for posting this exceptional video. The overall production of this video and content are truly sublime. Your choice of accompanying music was also an excellent choice. Kudos to you.
My late father called B-17 a “failure.” Backing up, he was a pilot and really, I mean really, into aviation history. He comes from the intent of a aircraft. The concept. The idea was to build an aircraft that could fly so high, and use the much celebrated Norton Bomb Sight, that they could bomb unopposed by flak or fighters. When it be apparent that opposition could in fact reach the bombers, a fix was made. Hence the addition of the machine guns sprouting out of all directions of the aircraft.
The B-17 was designed to bomb ships at sea as a form of coastal defense. The Navy didn't much care for the Army Air Corps stepping in their role, especially after 3 Forts met the Italian liner SS Rex at sea. The USN didn't have all that much to worry about of course-I have never read of an instance where a B-17 struck a ship at sea with a bomb. In that sense it was a failure. Not only that but the interception resulted in the War Dept. putting the brakes on further development of the Air Corps at a time when expansion would soon be needed.
I went on a tour of a B17 at an air museum. I felt the side of the fuselage. It was less than 1/2 inch thick. I knew it wouldn't even stop a hunting bullet.
I flew on one at OshKosh. The armor plates where supposed to line up on both sides originally, but the two waist gunners would bump into each other so they staggered them. Unfortunately, that meant that each gunner had protection in the front, but nothing behind them. At least they had heavier guns than the Brits who had to make due with .303s.
@@nocturnalrecluse1216yes, Stalag 17b as it is known. The same one as in the movie. It was located in Krems, Austria, and at the end of the war, they force marched all able bodied prisoners to the west, to avoid the Russians. My uncle carried another airman on his back, across Austria, so that he wouldn't be shot. They were from the same home town, Klamath Falls, Oregon.
I was posted to Munster when I was in the army, beautiful place. Always remember the town centre, they left the remnants of a bombed out building in situ, as a memorial to those lost to Bomber Commands night raids. The RAF flattened the place.
You need to brush up on your history David. Munster has a long history of weapons development facilities. The RAF flattened a few places where munitions were made, tested and distributed and Munster ticked all three boxes. It was a major rail hub and also had a long-established weapons testing site for shells and mines - it was where Mustard Gas was produced during the First World War. The Nazis were possibly working on much worse when it was flattened. The 100th BG came along too by the way - with instructions to use the Cathedral as the aiming point. The last time I looked they weren't part of 'Bomber Command'.
@@gibson617ajg Did I say it wasn't a legitimate target? I merely mentioned I'd seen their memorial to Bomber Commands rather excellent bomb aiming on the town hall. As for history, I used to give lectures on Battlefield tours oh and my dissertation on my master's was on the development of chemical weaponry. I won't embarrass you further regarding your rather puzzling assumptions.
Münster, Germany here: My father, born in Münster in 1938, had to leave the city after the first bombing raids to seek shelter on a farm as a child. One day a US or GB bomber was shot down, a pilot was able to escape with a parachute. My father had to leave the field very quickly. The farmers then killed the pilot with the pitchfork...
@@mebodeck Yeah, happened a lot. "Terror fleigers". Fortunately Luftwaffe pilots were treated better when taken POW in England despite their own bombings. If the pilot was shot down in daylight he was probably American. US flew through the day, RAF at night after having learned the lesson earlier. At the end of The war many of them were treated kindly by local families. Bert Trautman a POW famously went on to play for Manchester City in goal, in one game with a broken neck!
Don`t confuse Münster (or Muenster) in Westfalia near the dutch border (and with some importance for the history of the Netherlands) with Munster between Hannover and Hamburg (with military facilities). Münster is not known for major industries apart from a big factory for varnishes & colors (coatings) in the South of Münster. But the centre of Münster (esp the building with importance for the history of the Netherlands) had been destroyed on 10 Oct 1943.
I read the awesome book “ A wing and a prayer: The bloody 100th” by Harry Crosby, one of the only survivors of that ill fated division. ( AWESOME read!). He always stressed that they kept their formations low enough so that there were no contrails in the atmosphere to confuse fliers. The movie seems to show nothing but contrails, which is indicative of the confusion
Just finished reading the book about an hour ago. Totally agree with the awesome comment. Read hundreds of WW2 airway books, it is one of the best. Thorpe Abbot is less than an hour from home,. Looking forward to visiting the museum.
My grandfather was the “Master of the Air” Buck “rooty tooty fighter shooty” Smith, he had over 12 confirmed kills. Most of those civilians on the ground getting hit by shell casings but we don’t talk about that.
Stop making everything political. There was plenty of BS in Washington back then too, you’re just romanticizing periods without a real understanding of history. Politics has always been politics.
Well, Republicans then were also fronts for Nazi agents and fought preparing for the war, so there is continuity. But seeing a owould be tyrant parroting Hitlerian rhetoric-they would have been sick. Lock Trump up
in the years heading up to the war, Democrats had a one vote margin in the House. here were 401 votes to prepare for the threat-everything from the Two Ocean navy Act to the first peacetime draft in US History. 401 votes won with a one vote margin, Republicans lock step for Hitler like those supporting Putler today. @@thomasdragosr.841
Such a moving reality, these brave men endured. No PTSD either. Many veterans just refused to talk about their times in war. As a Nurse looking after the aged, I looked after many verts of WW2, and could level up to them, and many opened up about those days. These airmen's children were never informed of what their father went though. It takes great courage and faith in your mates, to get into a bomber plane in times of WW2.
@@ThePratorion Really? And did you ever meet any off them yourself? All were very grateful, they actually lived to see the end of the war, and many lived on to ripe old ages of 100 years old.
@@conservative-ku3lzyou make it seem like PTSD is a bad thing. I'm not saying they're not brave but there's nothing to be ashamed of with PTSD. I'm a veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan. I met plenty of WW2, Korean War, and Vietnam vets early in my career when more were alive.
@@ThePratorion I agree, no MH challenges should ever go unnoticed, especially PTSD. All I really wished to point out, that PTSD was no recognised during WW2. My Grandfather, a Marine Commando, took a burst of machine gun fire at Dunkirk, 5 in the chest, and 1 through the shoulder, and he did live, but definitely had PTSD, he never got over the horrors of the war, and he took his silenced experiences to his grave 50 years later. The Airforce, was a bit different. Unless the crew got totally shot up and someone witnessed the horrors and survived, many an aircraft spiralled from the sky, and the crew died, unable to bail out. PTSD really arrived during the Korean, and Vietnam wars, when Guerrilla warfare was the new norm. And the Middle Eastern war on terror, would have been in the category, of continuous hypervigilance, with a massive increases in civilian casualties. Before militia, and jungle warfare, stress factors were rarely continuous, unless due to heavy resistance. The guys I looked after, spoke of stressful engagements, only once the fighter escorts had to return, or, when they was closing in on the target, during an eight hour bombing run to Germany and back. I cannot think of a worse war, than one that is not justified, not knowing where or who, the enemy are, and huge civilian deaths. Awful, absolutely awful.
They absolutely had PTSD conservative. They just didn't show it and frankly for a long long time the United States military and the veterans administration refused to admit that it even existed.
Well, i use to say that I would like to be a pilot on the Mighty Eight. But after watching those last chapters, im starting to think that this isn't a good idea... I knew the history, but watching this scared me a lot...
More American airmen were killed in the skies over the European Theater of Operations than American marine infantrymen were killed in the entirety of the Pacific War. This was a brutal airwar, it's good to see it respectfully and depicted as faithfully as possible with Masters of the Air.
@@mar7774Not surprised when you consider the Army Air Corp flew pretty much every day over Europe for 21/2 years and the Marines generally fought for a 2-3 months at a time with time in between for refitting and training. Even if they fought on every island it would've been around 18 to 24 months. Plus there wasn't as much of a risk of losing 10 soldiers in one act as there was in the air force.
My Dad started jis bombing missions in July 1944 from Attlebridge England. He flew 36 Bombing Missions and by luck he and his Crew survived unscathed, regardless of one forced landing and bombers riddled with holes. Upon completion of his 36 Missions, then volunteered for clandestine Missions into Neutral Sweden. He returned to the US in late May, 1945, to prepare/train for deployment to Japan. Thankfully that never came to fruition.
My father ,,radio op,,was flak hit over Austria,,on his 13 th mission,,23 days in the hospital,,,his plane was one of few very damaged,,that day,,,,the next mission his squadron flew ,,every airplane was shot down,,6 out of 6,,,,,60 aircrew that day plus the losses of the groups three other squadrons,,,ground crews waiting for some time hoping their "Crew" made it,,,,they agonized also,,, Maybe something in me with losses in Viet,,,iv always suffered from it then and now,,
The Luftwaffe also changed tactics at one time to concentrate on one unit to hurt the morale of the unit. Although they did struggle later in the war, the British knew how important it was to replace the losses as quickly as possible. It was commonly referred to not letting a bunk get cold.
I'm struggling with the CGI on this. I haven't seen the series. Watching clips on here probably doesn't do it justice. But it looks like a PlayStation game.
Just went for a look, glad I did, I've known since my teens of the severe losses the US Airforces had...or so I thought but these numbers 😪 my God! Yes I subscribed, & yeah, I've read some of the comments but I read them with respect, some sons of aircrew, some nephews & grandkids; & some of us as outsiders. My family never got right into Europe, mainly South Pacific, North Africa & Crete ( Uncle Dave, 3yrs POW). Point is, they all suffered, regardless of country, corp or rank but the pilot's suffered the most. I can't speak for anyone else but for me & my family, we are thankful to America for saving us, otherwise I wouldn't have a country 🇦🇺 To the men of the American Flying Force's, & to the women who loved them...THANK YOU! 🇦🇺 LEST WE FORGET 🇺🇸
Some poster listed. He couldn’t believe that B-17 would have do those kind of maneuvers at the end of that mission. You should look up what happened to one of the Pacific on the reconnaissance mission think he basically dogfight Japanese zeros for almost an hour the bombers had to stay they were sitting ducks, if they would be able to maneuver the flock on the fires with the God is easy but they would’ve collided with each other and they would’ve never got back together as a formation
Boy i wish you'd make longer videos! Your voice is perfect for it and your research clearly is excellent! You have an amazing channel and i sincerely hope it grows for you.
The casualty rate on these missions is so staggering that it makes me question the competence of the US and British bomber commands. Like, were these missions really worth it? I just can’t imagine a 90% casualty rate ever being worthwhile. I wonder what the consensus among WW2 scholars is today about how effective these missions even were.
It depends on who you ask but it seems that for all their effort and sacrifice the strategic bombing campaign had very little effect on the German war effort. At least for the first couple of years. The Germans had no compunction about using forced labor so production never really stopped and in truth the bombers weren’t really hitting their intended targets. Even when they did hit them the damage was often relatively light or quickly repaired. By 44-45 the attrition was starting to add up (I defy anyone to drop half a billion tons of explosives on a countries industry and not hit something important) though I do wonder how much of that was more due to the naval blockades of Germany. There were many claims made about what the bombers could accomplish going into the campaign and sadly that propaganda persists to this day.
@@CharlieNoodles In one or two ways it did for it forced Germany to bring back fighter squadrons from the combat fronts (particularly the Eastern Front) to defend the cities and forced German factories and manpower on anti-air defense.
Actually they had to learn on the job and that goes for the commanders . During 1943 the Germans were losing crews too. The following year the allies realised that oil was the weak link and throughout 1944 oil/ synthetic oil targets were destroyed so that by the time of dday and beyond the Luftwaffe and every other was struggling for fuel especially for training . IN 19944 the Germans were still able to inflict loses but could not cope with the attrition . WW2 was a massive costly conflict . Even Bomber Command and 8th Airforce together was quite a small percentage of the total deaths . This doesn't underestimate their sacrifice ; for the amount involved it was a very effective contribution to the war effort and almost 50% losses . All those including ,technically civilian merchant seamen , were brave beyond words .@@CharlieNoodles
Yes it is.Been on my bookshelf since the early 70's.My grandmother's younger sister's husband flew on most of these missions.He was a Bombadier/Navigator with the 305th bomb group.They lost 13 out of 15 a/c on the Schweinfurt raid.I was pretty close to him growing up,but he never talked about any of it.I had to read books like this one to find out.Glad to see the younger generation show interest in these events,they should not be forgotten.
@@59ogreAgreed, these men should NOT be forgotten. Over time, they inevitably will be, as we are all forgotten eventually. But WW2 is still somewhat recent history. BTW, I've been pretty critical of the clips I have seen of MOTA for technical inaccuracies, among other things. But I'm glad to see that this effort has been made to show what the air war over Europe was like, and to make the story available to younger generations.
I recommend that you read The Schweinfurt--Regensburg Mission by Martin Middlebrook. You will then see what an "excellent" aviation book really is. I've read some of Caidin's works, and none of them deserves that sort of praise. There are numerous very good writers of military aviation history, but Caidin isn't one of them. Since acquiring many aviation books by first class authors, I've thrown out everything I owned written by Caidin, with the exception of Thunderbolt.
@@ramonzzzz I'll probably order Middlebrook's book later today. I'm in need of a good read--especially with all the buzz about this series. Thanks for the tip.
@@lonzo61You won't regret it. I also recommend The Nuremberg Raid by the same author, if you're at all interested in the RAF's contribution to the bombing campaign.
‘The real secret to the Mustang’s range was not the laminar flow control wing, or the Merlin engine. It was the addition of a fuselage tank behind the cockpit halfway through production of the P-51B. This additional internal tank increased fuel capacity by 85 gallons: original P-51Bs only had 184 gallons in the wings. The addition increased total fuel to 269 gallons or some 30%. Further adding two 75 gal drop tanks you reached 419 gallons. The later D&H models carried 110 gal drop tanks for 489 gallons.
What pushed up the odds for Rosie's survival over Munster was that he had previously been a gunnery pilot trainer in the US where he radically manoeuvered aircraft to test gunners' accuracy under battle simulations. Over Munster after the bomb load had gone he applied the same.
Some troops were drafted but many more VOLUNTEERED. An enlisted man was paid about $99.00 a month. Many of those soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines sent their money home to their mothers. There were brothers and sisters at home who needed clothing, shoes and food. Life at home was difficult… few families had electricity, or refrigerators, or telephones. or vehicles, or indoor plumbing. There were no vaccinations to prevent diseases like measles, chicken pox, mumps, polio, shingles. Just walk through any cemetery today and notice the memorial headstones and how short life was for families before the 1940s. We are the beneficiaries of the medical and technological advancements that often result in a war time. Now…to the moon and beyond! What would our ancestors say about that?
My uncle flew a B-17. He was considered a lucky pilot. None of his crew were ever killed. I know he was involved with Operation Aphrodite and knew Joe Kennedy personally. Later they called him a "jump pilot" because he would take off in an explosive packed B-17, and at some point near the target he would jump out and the plane was then radio guided to the target. Oh and he had a collision with another B-17 over England while they were grouping for a bombing raid. I am going to share a story he told me about those "jump pilot" days. This was 1981, I was still in the USAF, and home for the death of a family member. We spoke about a television mini series about Joe Kennedy. The show depicted him as the only man who could fly that plane, and the Army pilot (my uncle) was unqualified and off he went into history. My uncle said, and after serving I believe it true, "Joe wanted to visit his girlfriend in London, so we swapped missions..." Remember he was a "lucky pilot".
In reality, the aiming point on the Münster raid was the steps of the cathedral. Masters of the Air sanitizes this; it also downplays that these were suicide missions, and command knew that. As Donald Miller's book (that the series was based on) points out, the daylight precision bombing campaign was both a strategic and tactical disaster.
My dad was in Korea. i actually found a photo of him in Korea with his M1in Google Images. My wife's Dad was in WW2 in the Anzio Invasion tough sob I know he saw hand to hand combat there. When he passed we put his Burial Flag in a Case in a prominent place in our house. Neither would say a word about there service. Not a word. i wore my Dads green army jacket with the First Cav patches on the shoulders in High School. These guys saw some awful shit. B17 guys saw some incredibly brutal service.Taking off in the freezing cold every morning knowing what they were headed to holy shit.
They recently found a small brick building all overgrown on a former US air base, underneath the undergrowth was a large pile of 0.50 cal casings, under that was a complete skeletal arm....really makes u think.
Its impossible for anyone who hasn't been through the experiences of a bomber crew in WW2 to even to begin to understand what it was actually like; flying straight and level for the bomb run whilst the enemy was doing everything it could to kill you at the same time.
Before the Raid Münster was one of the most beautiful historic cities in Germany. The "30 years war" ended in Münster and many houses from 1648 still stood. After the raid, Münster looked like a desert...
Thank you for this video. Was the footage from a movie? If so which? A book that tells the story of the British raids over Germany; Bomber by Len Deighton is well worth a read. So many young lives lost by the allies 💔🇬🇧🇺🇲💪
I did somewhere that the losses of B17 crews in WW 2 was 55,000,which if is accurate is mind- numbing to contemplate.I am in England & when I was at school our history teacher had been a navigator in a Lancaster bomber in the 'Dambusters' squadron that destroyed the dams in the Rhure,& I wondered how clise to death he had been.He,like those B17 crews, was a young man,many were barely in their 20s.Boys became men overnight.Bravery doesn't begin to cover it.
I’d always known the horror of this campaign from documentaries and movies like Memphis bell, 12 o’clock high and even one of the episodes from amazing stories. But think MoA will be the last word in describing this aspect of the war in Europe. There is something to be said for the fact that these crew members got back to safety if they survived and then had to turn around and do it over and over again. I wonder if this is a different mindset to the fighting in Bastogne or pelielu where you are always in the front line.
My uncle missed this mission. How so? Because his plane went down after Hanover a couple days before! He did escape and evade though. He thought that a lot of BS had been written about the 100th, but he was lucky to miss the missions that probably generated the "Bloody Century" nickname.
While the 100 Bomb Group was virtually wiped out in the Munster Raid, it took the German Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht focusing all their combined efforts on that one air group that day in order to bring them down. The other two air groups got through, completed their mission of bombing the rail yard and worker dormitories successfully, and did so with lighter than usual casualties as a result of the Germans trying to focus down one group. It was a tactic which the Germans were trying out on that mission to see if it would bring down bombers fast enough so that multiple sorties by their fighters during a single mission could take out an entire bomber stream.
Nice job, likely using same CGI and folks who did 9/11 stuff. Way to go, dudes. So much for historical accuracy. The story of these brave hearts now besmirched . . . and for what? A stipend?
Air War NW Europe BRITISH AND AMERICAN BOMBER LOSSES HC Deb 10 May 1944 vol 399 c1934W Mr. Stokes asked the Secretary of State for Air how many British and American bombers, respectively, were lost over Germany and Northern Europe during the first four months of 1944. Sir A. Sinclair During the first four months of 1944, 1,041 British and 1,117 U S.A.A.F. bombers operating from this country were reported lost over Germany and Northern Europe. 'By March 1944, it became clear that the area offensive had fallen short of its goals and that Bomber Command was facing destruction by night fighters just as earlier it had faced destruction by day fighters.' - Noble Frankland, historian and Bomber Command veteran BBC Berlin Air Offensive page Goering "But in the beginning, we had not fully assessed the possibility of daylight bombers. Our fighters could not cope with them. When we were able to do so, there was a pause and then you sent them out with fighter escort. The Flying Fortress, for example, had more than we had anticipated. Our estimate was incorrect." LOST PRISON INTERVIEW WITH HERMANN GOERING: THE NAZI REICHSMARSCHALL’S REVELATIONS page
Some things to remember: - Losses were cumulative. If they started with 100 bombers and lost just 5% per mission, after 14 missions more than half of them were lost. 8th Air Force crews needed 25 missions to go home. - The movies show air battles lasting minutes. But the actual missions lasted hours, much of which was spent flying over enemy territory. Hours of dodging flak, then enemy fighters, then more flak, etc. - The USAAF leadership clung to the doctrine that bombers such as the B-17 did not need fighter escort because their 8 or more 50 caliber machine guns plus formation flying would protect them. This may have been true in the 1920s and early 1930s, but the faster fighters of the late 1930s and on proved it was simply not true, and that fighter escort was needed. - The USAAF leadership also clung to the doctrine of daylight precision bombing - that the Norden bombsight would put bombs exactly where they were aimed. In reality, there were just too many unknown variables (wind, airspeed, altitude) for that to work.
I'd like to see a drama done about Bomber Command, Royal Air Force, and the Nuremberg Raid. Over 100 bombers were lost on this nighttime raid, and it was rumoured at the time that the Germans were informed of the target so that they could be fed with false information regarding D Day.
My dad was born in Nuremberg and was 8 years old at the end of WWII. He remembers sitting in the basement of his apartment building during air raids, until he was relocated to the countryside along with other children. He also told me stories of life during the immediate aftermath of the war, after returning home to the city.
I know its the last thing anyone would want to do in real life but imagine bailing out of a stricken B-17, and landing unharmed behind enemy lines, and trying to work your way to safety....knowing large groups of enemy soldiers were looking for you as you made your way around the countryside....maybe avoiding towns....checkpoints......search parties...all looking for YOU .I have always loved the idea of that and love watching movies about that subject. years ago Tom Cruise was going to do a movie with just that story but it never got made.
I was born and raised in Germany. In the village where I lived in the southwestern part of the country before coming to the U.S., I heard that civilians captured an American crew member who had been shot down and beat the crap out of him, before turning him over to the authorities. At the end of the war, after being liberated from his POW camp, he and some of his buddies went back to that village, searched for the men who gave him the beatdown, and returned the favor likewise.
These battles depicted are to tens. The Germans are way to close to the bombers. Please look at real camera footage for ww2 to compare. This is filmed to be exceptional intense. Well having spoken with real veterans on both sides. Intense it was but I’m sure this film is over te top
When you look at the actual numbers, flak accounted for a staggering amount of damaged beyond repair and shoot downs vs enemy fighters. It wasn't until the last years that the Germans began using rockets and head on attacks. On top of that any B-17's that were damaged and had to fall out of formation were easy meat for the Luftwaffe. German aircraft zipping THROUGH formations is highly unrealistic as they would have been shredded by the box formation guns. They would typically go head on (3 seconds of shooting) and then dive down hard to avoid return fire. The Munster raid was an exception as the number of defense aircraft were twice (almost 3x) the normal seen during a raid. Also, Me-110's and Ju-88's were "parallel" as in straight on as well but they dove on the formations and spread rocket attacks into the formation. Very effective but only possible when there wasn't any German targets below them. German 20mm cannon fire was relatively ineffective unless they hit the cockpit or an engine. A single engine loss meant the aircraft could be targeted later when it fell out of formation from not being able to keep up. Flak over the cities is what really damaged and destroyed at least half of the aircraft over Muster.
Great question. The Germans converted several variants to be heavy fighters with cannons mounted in the nose, as well as upward facing. They were mainly used as night fighters, but were also used in limited numbers in support of day time bomber interception.
Several different variants of the Ju-88 were manufactured as heavy day fighters or night fighters, carrying heavy firepower in the nose and fuselage, and they proved to be quite effective in those roles.
@@StoriesofWWIINot only that but the Nightfighter variants of several twin engine models like the BF 110 or Me 410 were also equipped with the best electronics the Germans had like the Lichtenstein radar which turned those machines into deadly night fighters. One of the most famous was a pilot called Schnaufer the spook of St Tronde who shot down 9 British bombers on his own in one night at the end of the war by only using the "schräge Musik" guns
Does anyone know what percentage of German fighters were shot down by the B-17’s gunners? The movies and such make it sound like they were all shot down by our fighters.
They were not only sending up flak but those in target areas received bombs . There is an account in Battles With the Luftwaffe( Bowman and Boiten ) of the devestation of a flak position .Later in the war 14 and 15 year old boys were part of the flak crews . The amount of German artillery and ammunition tied down by allied bombers was a massive help to Allied front line troops
As the war progressed allied fighters carried auxillary fuel tanks that enabled them to accompany the bombers much further. That and the steadily diminishing number of German fighters reulted in little opposition except flak.
having ignored warnings from those who had ben doing this for at least 2 yeas, that hubris and the failed concept of the B17, cost so many lives needlessly. In the end the Norden was flawed, US bombing was no more accurate than the RAF, thus the US adopted H2X and had to wait until RR powered Mustangs with British made drop tanks came on stream...then the strategic bombing campaign started to see significant results. Allied cooperation.
When the first prototype of the B-17 flew in 1935, and the actual YB-17 flew in December, 1936, the Army Air Force bombing brass aka the Bomber Mafia, believed that they had the plane, combined with the remarkable Norden bombsight, to achieve their dream of unstoppable, precision daylight bombing. The new plane was faster than any fighter plane, and by flying in box formation, with so many .50 caliber machine guns at a time when most fighter planes carried .30 caliber machine guns, by the time any patrolling planes or ground stations called in their locations, the bomber fleet would have accomplished its mission and be back home. There was no need for a long range escort fighter, due to such circumstances, and no such plane existed. So, why then in 1943, were America B-17s and B-24s being shot down in appalling numbers, why had unescorted daylight bombing failed? The reason was the same thing that gave the Bomber Mafia its dream tools: Technology. First, there was an absolute explosion of aircraft innovation, development and invention during that time. Fighter were now MUCH faster than the B-17 or B-24. And the Germans developed planes with the fire power to shoot down bombers. German planes were now equipped with .51 caliber machine guns, 20 mm and even 30 mm cannon, even unguided rockets. But there was another development that really caused the bombers trouble: Radar. The same invention that helped the British win the Battle of Britain was helping the Germans easily detect and intercept the American bomber fleets. As to the bombsight, there were a number of real-world issues that did not come out in the crystal-clear New Mexico bomb ranges, starting with clouds. Europe had many days of bad, weather and even some clouds over the target could throw off aim. Add in being under fire, your plane getting jostled from flak and it getting hit, the constant exposure of the bombsight to -50-degree weather, and the effect that had on lubricant and the metal inside the bombsight, and the natural tendency of bombardiers under fire to "pucker," as one historian put it, causing the bombardier to slightly change his angle of view through the sight, all could contribute to inaccuracies. The need for a lang range escort became obvious, and efforts were made. But the P-47 in August, 1943, had only a range of 375 miles with a belly tank. By November 1943, the P-38 was available with a range of 520 miles, but it had issues at high altitudes. Finally, March 1944 arrived with P-51 Mustang, a plane when using drop tanks that had a combat range of more than 600 miles, enough to get past Berlin and back. Crucially, the order was given to allow the P-51s to go after the Luftwaffe, not be tied to the bombers. The bombers at this point became bait and would incur heavy losses. But at this point there were so many more bombers that the same loss on a raid in 1943, was instantly replaceable for a mission in 1944. The P-51s, and P-47s were also given the order to attack German airfields on their way back, an order that resulted in many US fighters getting shot down from ground fire. Although it would remain in use into the Korean War, the P-51 was more vulnerable to damage than the P-47; the Mustang had a liquid cooled engine while the Thunderbolt had an air-cooled engine. Coolant leaks to the P-51 meant it was going down sooner or later. But between the constant attacks on German airfields and the P-51 winning the battles in the skies (and also the P-47s for the length of their escort, air superiority was achieved by the Allies, with it soon becoming air supremacy. The bravery of the bomber crews simply cannot be understated and it is good to see that they are being memorialized by this show.
Rosie Rosenthal later led the largest American bombing raid on Berlin which started a fire so large that it burned unchecked for 4 days, destroying most of the city center. This must have been a very satisfying retribution for him since he was Jewish. An attorney before the war, he participated in the Nuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals after the war.
Not to mention that raid on Berlin directly led to the death of Roland Freisler, the President of the People's Court. Among the cases he was about to pass sentence that day-obviously to the guillotine-was a resistance member Fabian von Schlabrendorff. Fabian would be re-tried, acquitted, and later on become a judge in the Constitutional Court of West Germany. A tale of three lawyers, indeed.
Reply Killing civilians was not truly satisfying to anyone, except maybe Bomber Harris. It was ‘morale bombing’. Some Americans looked at it as simply war, and ‘they deserved it.’ while others took it home with them. Spaatz, and the Air Force headquarters in Washington, fought against bombing city centers and the civilian population as the US took heavy losses to bomb ‘economic’ targets. When Churchill and the RAF tried to drag the Americans into “Thunderclap” it was felt that they were trying to ‘tar’ the US with the same repercussions that they themselves would eventually experience from the aftermath of ‘morale bombing’ as the US had always taken the high moral road. Arnold’s assistant chief of planning and operations simply stated “If is contrary to our national ideals to wage war against civilians.” As the Russians were closing in on Berlin the true economic ruin that Germany found itself in, by strategic bombing, was not known, and under pressure from Arnold, Spaatz relented and they bombed the government buildings in the center of Berlin on February 3, (at least hitting an important target in the city center) which you reference. To bring it into context, with regard to the bombing of Japanese targets, the later bombings of Japanese cities was against a country where all citizens were considered combatants by not only the Emperor, but by their own admission; also, manufacturing was spread out in and amongst the civilian population, which helped in the development of the ‘Sinister Factor’. Berlin was hit by the 8th mostly for its industry, and in order to bring the Luftwaffe up in the execution of Operation Pointblank where the “Boeings” were actually part bait. Satisfaction was surviving and bringing your crew through alive. I had a well-known professor who was a bombardier in the Eighth (not a toggler) and he spent most of the rest of his life running from the dead below, and he was Jewish too, hence the reply to your comment; also, as the February 3, raid was considered a crossing of the line. He became a little left of left on his trail to pacifism, as a result of the war, and I disagreed with him on many issues but I respected him, knowing where he had been and what he was trying to live with. He remained in the ETO past the end and his best memory was reading A Tree Grows in Brooklyn in the nose of a 17 being ferried back home. The largest American raid on Berlin by the Eighth was actually on March 18, 1945 and they went after the rail yards; the bombing was not completely accurate, as most often was the case, and bombs dropped on the city killing what they estimate were 3,000 civilians. Rosenthal’s last mission was February 3, 1945, to Berlin (target: government buildings and city center), so he could not have been on the March 18 raid, or the largest American raid on Berlin. I haven’t seen Masters of the Air but I read the book a while back and it does contain some minor errors, but it is broad and expansive enough where some of those errors are to be expected. Getting back to Rosenthal himself, he was much more than an amazing, and highly decorated, man. And as for the men of the Mighty Eighth: In 1980 I crawled into the nose of a static B-17 at Chino Airport, towards a man talking to himself in German. When he saw me come through, he told me that he could not believe that he was "...sitting where these great men sat." He had been a young teen in Germany when the ‘Boeings’ flew through heavy flak to avoid accidentally hitting his town near Marienburg and he knew this from the Luftwaffe pilots who went to a beer hall in his town and talked about the bravery of the American bomber crews who never turned back, and how they stuck to the known humanity of Americans.
@@yaweebutrkrawee6991 Roland Freisler was a monster; he played a leading role in the Nazification of German law and participated in the Wannsee conference. He was put in charge of the People's Court, an already-low political operation where he presided over show trials meant to intimidate defendants and public alike. When the USAAF's bombs killed him, a German hospital worker saw the Hanging Judge's corpse brought in and called it "God's Verdict."
Eagen was a good commander. Yes, I want revenge, but my crew is in danger, we bail! Yes, we could continue to argue, but he is younger and stubborn, I jump
My Dad's B-17 was shot down on this mission. He was top turret gunner on Michigan Air Force from the 385th BG. 42-3539 tail number.
Dad was wounded and became POW in Stalag 17B. Also right waist gunner and ball turret gunner were KIA.
The copilot drown evading capture.
Thank you for making this video..
Mine too.
I'm British. Here in the UK, there used to be a celebrity comedian named Michael Bentine. He'd been an RAF intelligence officer in WW2, tasked with debriefing returning crews. One day a USAAF commander said Bentine could come in an observation aircraft for a look-see at the returning B17s. They formated on a badly-damaged B17, limping along at low altitude, shot to pieces.
Bentine saw lots of red fluid, dribbling out of the cannon holes and along the side of the fuselage.
Bentine asked, "Is that hydraulic fluid?"
The USAAF officer replied, "No, that's blood".
My unassuming shop teacher in the late 1970s. He had to bail out of his bomber twice. Somehow made it out ok. He did not talk about it to us students. But an other teacher mentioned how he, my shop teacher, had to bail out at a high altitude. High enough to render him unconscious. So when he removed mask and jumped, he had to have hoping to wake up and pull his parachute cord before he hit the ground.
My father was in the 379th (BG) Bombardment Group 1st Air Div. 8th, TSGT, Top turret "Flak Rabbit" (35 missions). These men are the reason we're here. GOD bless them all."
@@jimcallender3410 I'm in southern England. There's a farm about ten miles away which was a temporary USAAF airfield in 1944. They've got a farm shop. Drive in, pick your own fruit, get it weighed and pay. The owners erected a home-made memorial to the soldiers and airmen who served there: Hand-drawn pictures of P47s, a trough with flowers growing out of it. Life must've been miserable at that airfield, living under canvas during wet and cold weather. Taking off and landing on a wire-mesh runway.
Half the cars in the car park today are German and Japanese, but that's not the point. Our countries paid the blood-price to teach those peoples to trade as rivals, not murder as monsters. Our liberty was bought by the sacrifice of our forebears.
I just want to let people here know that the American sacrifice continues to be revered and respected here in the UK.
I'm looking forward to this TV series being screened. If it's as good as Band of Brothers and The Pacific, we've a treat coming.
My old schoolbook said “the bombing campaign against germany went unopposed or little resistance on the German part”… man, whoever wrote that knew nothing about it
Fake news isn’t new
Depends on what chronological time that book was referring to. the Luftwaffe was obsolete from mid may 1945
That's an outright lie. No school textbook ever said that. Why do you make obviously false statements on the internet? What's wrong with you?
Sounds a lot like home grown military propaganda.
@@navalcomand1981 Germany had already surrendered by mid-May 1945.
I'm so glad you profiled Robert "Rosie" Rosenthal. I first read of him in the excellent book, "Flying Fortress" by Jablonski that I read as a kid and recently found and bought the book. We lost him only a few years ago. There's also a chapter on "The Bloody 100th". What these mostly very young men did is beyond incredible. Truly our BEST generation ❤️.
In the small Memorial Chapel at Thorpe Abbotts Control Tower Museum, there is a Memorial Book where veterans have been back over and written about their friends. Robert Rosenthal is mentioned MANY times with such affection and love. One comment has always stood out for me when I have read them. It reads simply :
"To Robert Rosenthal, the most Honourable man I have ever known !"
I think this is the thing. In movies like Saving private ryan the soldiers are too old really. Most of them were kids.
Amazing videos and storyline. My uncle was a top turret gunner and flight engineer on Blood and Guts...95th Bomb Group out of Horham. But he flew at the end of the war, completing his 25 missions in May of '45. Shot down once over Belgium with a replacement crew and landed one mile on our side of the front lines. He returned to base the next day after partying with the locals all night. His buddies looked at him like they were seeing a ghost. He had two confirmed kills but did not like to talk about it. This truly was America's greatest generation.
Except....their decisions shortchanged generations after them
This sounds like a war crime.
Vero erano tosti e coraggiosi.
Thanks for sharing your uncle’s experience. 🇺🇸
one of my first work bosses father was a german luftwaffe pilot, he got shot down and had flames licking his face when he jumped out of his burning plane!Wilhelm said his father had claustrophobia so bad that he couldnt even sleep in a sleeping bag and had a panic attack trying one in the 1970s during a weekend in the woods!
A buddy of mine's uncle was on that Muenster mission, he was super surprised to discover his uncle's B-17 being mentioned in Masters of the Air.
What was it's name?
@@tduna329 Zoltek.
Made up story
A level of braveness i can't comprehend. I wish i could say more but the words escape me.
Rosenthal’s tail gunner “unofficially” had six kills in this mission. Ironically, none of these were official as USAAF regulations required that a second aircraft had to confirm the kill.
I did read this. Bomber gunners at the time over claimed enemy fighters shot down. It was mostly tolerated to boost morale.
That's not irony.
They had to take what the gunners said with a grain of salt. One mission over Germany the boys on the bombers claimed 276 German fighters shot down. In reality they shot down 26! So that's part of why they didn't give them credit all the time.
It was hard to verify German planes shot down even after the war and the allies had access to their records. The germans didn't count a plane shot down if the pilot survived. So if there were 15 planes shot down, they would only list 10 list if five of the pilots survived.
@@samuelhowie4543 That's not because they intentionally don't list aircraft losses, most of the War Diaries only list personell losses, not aircraft losses. So if you get something like a Pilot wounded, or Pilot with FSA (Fallschirmabsprung/Parachute jump) you can infer an aircraft loss.
There is a pretty good german book called "Start im Morgengrauen - Eine Chronik vom Untergang der Deutschen Jagdwaffe im Westen 1944/1945" (Takeoff at Dawn - A Chronicle of the downfall of the German Fighterforce in the West 1944/1945), by Werner Girbig, which is well worth a read.
Sadly afaik it hasn't been translated to english yet. It is a day by day account of combat operations of the "Reichsverteidigung" in 1944 to 1945. More a big picture view.
It has a lot of passages from the War Diaries of the Jagdgeschwader (fighter wings).
My granny's husband was an engineer working on the aerodromes for these large bombers . I believe air crew had to make 25 missions which were terrifying , and suffered high losses .Granny had to provide support to surviving crews who were in tears .
Generals Hap Arnold and Ira Eaker were the Army Air Force leaders who denied fighter protection to the bombers of 8th air force. Drop tanks were available for P 47s and would have provided enough fuel for missions into Germany. This fighter protection was later provided in the later war years with both the Mustang and the P 47 but the lives of thousands of airmen would have been saved if these Generals were not stubbornly locked into a tragically flawed strategy.
Hap arnold was not part of 8th army air force and there is records of both of them asking for it but british commander denied there request usaaf fighter until base in France was taken did not give p47 range. P51d was only one to make from England to Berlin back again
Not to mention flying the missions in daylight as well. And then claiming that their "precision bombing" made it necessary.
@@dougerrohmer The US did do precision bombing compared to how the British did area bombing. US aimed for factories, Brits aimed for whole cities
@@tallleprechaun1318And both hit very few targets of strategic importance.
@@tallleprechaun1318 Actually, that's a bit of a myth. It's true that the Brits seldom hit what they aimed at, or even got within a couple of miles. But the whole "precision bombing" was tied up in the politics of the Army Airforce leadership wanting to become an independent service. Like they can win the war on their own. They tied all of it to the Norden Bomb Sight, which cost a LOT of many to develop and then never delivered because there was no way to predict the wind at all the various levels. So the Eight Airforce would "bomb on lead", ie only the front guy used his sight and all other bombardiers dropped when he dropped. So you can imagine, given how large a chunk of the air was filled with this huge formation, how widely spread the impacts were, and then all the other factors like wind, bombing creep, German spoofing, all contributed to make the whole thing pretty ineffective. Check out the damage caused by Schweinfurt and Regensburg raids, ask yourself why they had to go back again and what was the total damage after it.
At no time was the Luftwaffe ever able to send up "hundreds" of defending fighters after 1943... they simply no longer had that many planes left. German records show that interceptor fighters numbered 12 to 20 aircraft per flight on average, usually a mix of fighters and fighter-bombers. Records also show that these German fighters engaged until out of feul/ammo, then landed, refuelled/rearmed, and went back up to catch the B-17s on their return trip. This may have made the number seem much greater than it actually was. Regardless, heroism on both sides to a gut-wrenching degree... they really were The Greatest Generation.
Keep in mind that RAF Bomber Command was coming over in force at night. They must have been stretched very thin confronting a 24 hour assault.
@@haitolawrence5986 Different aircraft, different pilots for the night fighters.
@@DraftySatyrStill, stretched very thin.
Flight International published an account of the Munster raid when I was a boy, and I think it was the first piece of wartime aviation history I ever read. I remember it began " They don't erect memorials in the sky, but if they did, there would be one shining over Munster..." . I also remember reading where one eye witness suddenly realised an entire BG had disappeared ( probably referring to the 100th). Thorpe Abbotts is just down the road from where I live, as are the two B-24 bases where James Stewart served. Plenty of ruins and artefacts still to be seen - the English countryside still hasn't reclaimed them completely.
P.K., It's good to read your comment. My father was with the 487th, 839 bs based near Lavenham. I'd like to visit the area, see the church tower, maybe the pub ,The Swan. Be well.
A couple years ago, my wife and I decided to go to Lake Havasu AZ, where the old London Bridge is located (painstakingly disassembled, shipped over, and re-assembled over the Colorado River). I was kind of stunned to walk across it and still see spalling from bomb fragments and machine gun fire from strafing. Evidence of the past surround us, even in the most unlikely of places.
@@MrJest2 Look up St.Dunstan-in-the-East, a London church that was bombed by the Luftwaffe. It has been transformed into a garden, amidst the surrounding office blocks. A lovely place to spend your lunch break.
Sports are fun, but there are no sports heroes. These men are the real heroes.
Heroes? For flying miles above a civilian settlement, and dropping bombs on it?
@@codymoe4986 No. heroes for driving back pure tyrannical murderous evil while that evil power was doing everything it could to kill them and those they were protecting.
You seem to have forgotten WHY there was a war and a need for bombing targets. That sort of rank foolishness could only be developed in American public schools run by ignorant leftists, I think.
My grandfather "in-law" was the pilot of the "Easy Goin" from the Bloody 100th. He was a great man and I wish I could've known him longer. He told some stories, but not the ones that hurt if he could help it. 😢
I find it quite fascinating, that at the location at about 1:50, that's where nowadays I go partying in Clubs on weekends. And juuust on the bottom mid part, that's where the Skating scene of Münster is located, at the "Skater's Palace". saw some great concerts there too. ....How times have changed.
oh and funfact: that picture on 5:00 is from around the 1960s
Münster was maintained as the headquarters for the 6th Military District (Wehrkreis) of the German Wehrmacht but one of the main reasons why the Yanks targeted the railway yards in Münster was the fact that the prominent presence of the military units including SS Panzer Divisions utilising the rail hub for transport. Münster was a guaranteed Allied target. About 91% of the Old City and 63% of the entire city was destroyed by Allied air raids.
“A typical interception in the fall of 1942 has been described by Johannes Naumann, at that time the an Oberleutnant in II/JG 26. The Gruppe was ordered to attack the bombers on their return flight as there was no chance of reaching them on their bomb run. The B-17’s were flying in a staggered formation at about 26,000 feet. The Focke Wulfs finally struggled up to 27,000 feet, only to see the American formation receding into the distance. The speed of the FW 190’s at that altitude was only a little greater than that of the bombers…No bombers were downed; none had even suffered visible damage.”
Top Guns of the Luftwaffe p. 125 by Donald L. Caldwell
This changed with the FW190D and BF109G.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110_operational_history#Daylight_operations
I made several flights on the Collings Foundation's B-17 and B-24 in warm weather and at low level, it was a humbling experience and what it must have been like high over enemy territory is unimaginable. In the UK where I live now many of the old bases are shrines to the memory of those who didn't make it back.
Thank you very much for posting this exceptional video. The overall production of this video and content are truly sublime. Your choice of accompanying music was also an excellent choice. Kudos to you.
My late father called B-17 a “failure.” Backing up, he was a pilot and really, I mean really, into aviation history. He comes from the intent of a aircraft. The concept. The idea was to build an aircraft that could fly so high, and use the much celebrated Norton Bomb Sight, that they could bomb unopposed by flak or fighters. When it be apparent that opposition could in fact reach the bombers, a fix was made. Hence the addition of the machine guns sprouting out of all directions of the aircraft.
Some say fire from these machine guns also hit other bombers
The B-17 was designed to bomb ships at sea as a form of coastal defense. The Navy didn't much care for the Army Air Corps stepping in their role, especially after 3 Forts met the Italian liner SS Rex at sea.
The USN didn't have all that much to worry about of course-I have never read of an instance where a B-17 struck a ship at sea with a bomb. In that sense it was a failure. Not only that but the interception resulted in the War Dept. putting the brakes on further development of the Air Corps at a time when expansion would soon be needed.
I went on a tour of a B17 at an air museum. I felt the side of the fuselage. It was less than 1/2 inch thick. I knew it wouldn't even stop a hunting bullet.
I flew on one at OshKosh. The armor plates where supposed to line up on both sides originally, but the two waist gunners would bump into each other so they staggered them. Unfortunately, that meant that each gunner had protection in the front, but nothing behind them. At least they had heavier guns than the Brits who had to make due with .303s.
Thanks for that. A brilliant piece of work and well selected clips from MoA.
Hundreds of B-17’s in formation. Insane amount of ordnance. Must have been a crazy sight
My uncle flew this raid with the 324 sq of the 91st as his 13th mission. He was shot down 31-12-43 and did 17 months in Stalag 17b.
Respect
Did you just say Stalag 17?? 😂
@@nocturnalrecluse1216yes, Stalag 17b as it is known. The same one as in the movie. It was located in Krems, Austria, and at the end of the war, they force marched all able bodied prisoners to the west, to avoid the Russians. My uncle carried another airman on his back, across Austria, so that he wouldn't be shot. They were from the same home town, Klamath Falls, Oregon.
@torinoscj Yes, I am very aware of the movie, and that's why I got so excited when you mentioned it. I never knew it was a real Stalag until now.
@@nocturnalrecluse1216I love that movie. I watch it every few years and never tire of it.
I was posted to Munster when I was in the army, beautiful place. Always remember the town centre, they left the remnants of a bombed out building in situ, as a memorial to those lost to Bomber Commands night raids. The RAF flattened the place.
You need to brush up on your history David.
Munster has a long history of weapons development facilities.
The RAF flattened a few places where munitions were made, tested and distributed and Munster ticked all three boxes.
It was a major rail hub and also had a long-established weapons testing site for shells and mines - it was where Mustard Gas was produced during the First World War.
The Nazis were possibly working on much worse when it was flattened.
The 100th BG came along too by the way - with instructions to use the Cathedral as the aiming point. The last time I looked they weren't part of 'Bomber Command'.
@@gibson617ajg Did I say it wasn't a legitimate target?
I merely mentioned I'd seen their memorial to Bomber Commands rather excellent bomb aiming on the town hall.
As for history, I used to give lectures on Battlefield tours oh and my dissertation on my master's was on the development of chemical weaponry.
I won't embarrass you further regarding your rather puzzling assumptions.
Münster, Germany here: My father, born in Münster in 1938, had to leave the city after the first bombing raids to seek shelter on a farm as a child. One day a US or GB bomber was shot down, a pilot was able to escape with a parachute. My father had to leave the field very quickly. The farmers then killed the pilot with the pitchfork...
@@mebodeck Yeah, happened a lot. "Terror fleigers". Fortunately Luftwaffe pilots were treated better when taken POW in England despite their own bombings. If the pilot was shot down in daylight he was probably American. US flew through the day, RAF at night after having learned the lesson earlier.
At the end of The war many of them were treated kindly by local families.
Bert Trautman a POW famously went on to play for Manchester City in goal, in one game with a broken neck!
Don`t confuse Münster (or Muenster) in Westfalia near the dutch border (and with some importance for the history of the Netherlands) with Munster between Hannover and Hamburg (with military facilities).
Münster is not known for major industries apart from a big factory for varnishes & colors (coatings) in the South of Münster. But the centre of Münster (esp the building with importance for the history of the Netherlands) had been destroyed on 10 Oct 1943.
I read the awesome book “ A wing and a prayer: The bloody 100th” by Harry Crosby, one of the only survivors of that ill fated division. ( AWESOME read!). He always stressed that they kept their formations low enough so that there were no contrails in the atmosphere to confuse fliers. The movie seems to show nothing but contrails, which is indicative of the confusion
Just finished reading the book about an hour ago. Totally agree with the awesome comment. Read hundreds of WW2 airway books, it is one of the best. Thorpe Abbot is less than an hour from home,. Looking forward to visiting the museum.
And so much for the Norden bomb sight. After the war it was found that very few bombs hit the target
Sperry had a better sight but not as much pull in lobbyist choked DC.
My grandfather flew on this mission. Told my dad storys about the mission.
Crew on his B-17 or another?
That is tremendously cool!
No, no he didn’t. Weird lie bro.
My grandfather was the “Master of the Air” Buck “rooty tooty fighter shooty” Smith, he had over 12 confirmed kills. Most of those civilians on the ground getting hit by shell casings but we don’t talk about that.
@@Equanox214 yeah believe what you want to believe because I am trusting the original commenter
Over Great Yarmouth, that’s why I love living in Norfolk. So many airfields and radar stations. A war county
the brave men of that war would be stunned at our in fighting and of the politicians in washington today
Stop making everything political. There was plenty of BS in Washington back then too, you’re just romanticizing periods without a real understanding of history. Politics has always been politics.
Not really, the same BS went on back then too.
The problem is the delusions who cannot separate misinformation.
Well, Republicans then were also fronts for Nazi agents and fought preparing for the war, so there is continuity. But seeing a owould be tyrant parroting Hitlerian rhetoric-they would have been sick. Lock Trump up
in the years heading up to the war, Democrats had a one vote margin in the House. here were 401 votes to prepare for the threat-everything from the Two Ocean navy Act to the first peacetime draft in US History. 401 votes won with a one vote margin, Republicans lock step for Hitler like those supporting Putler today. @@thomasdragosr.841
I studied law in Münster. Greetings from Germany 🇩🇪 ✌🏻
Such a moving reality, these brave men endured. No PTSD either. Many veterans just refused to talk about their times in war. As a Nurse looking after the aged, I looked after many verts of WW2, and could level up to them, and many opened up about those days. These airmen's children were never informed of what their father went though. It takes great courage and faith in your mates, to get into a bomber plane in times of WW2.
They absolutely had PTSD
@@ThePratorion Really? And did you ever meet any off them yourself? All were very grateful, they actually lived to see the end of the war, and many lived on to ripe old ages of 100 years old.
@@conservative-ku3lzyou make it seem like PTSD is a bad thing. I'm not saying they're not brave but there's nothing to be ashamed of with PTSD. I'm a veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan. I met plenty of WW2, Korean War, and Vietnam vets early in my career when more were alive.
@@ThePratorion I agree, no MH challenges should ever go unnoticed, especially PTSD. All I really wished to point out, that PTSD was no recognised during WW2. My Grandfather, a Marine Commando, took a burst of machine gun fire at Dunkirk, 5 in the chest, and 1 through the shoulder, and he did live, but definitely had PTSD, he never got over the horrors of the war, and he took his silenced experiences to his grave 50 years later. The Airforce, was a bit different. Unless the crew got totally shot up and someone witnessed the horrors and survived, many an aircraft spiralled from the sky, and the crew died, unable to bail out. PTSD really arrived during the Korean, and Vietnam wars, when Guerrilla warfare was the new norm. And the Middle Eastern war on terror, would have been in the category, of continuous hypervigilance, with a massive increases in civilian casualties. Before militia, and jungle warfare, stress factors were rarely continuous, unless due to heavy resistance. The guys I looked after, spoke of stressful engagements, only once the fighter escorts had to return, or, when they was closing in on the target, during an eight hour bombing run to Germany and back. I cannot think of a worse war, than one that is not justified, not knowing where or who, the enemy are, and huge civilian deaths. Awful, absolutely awful.
They absolutely had PTSD conservative. They just didn't show it and frankly for a long long time the United States military and the veterans administration refused to admit that it even existed.
This video and this channel is great. Sub'd.
Glad you enjoy it Iceman.
Well, i use to say that I would like to be a pilot on the Mighty Eight. But after watching those last chapters, im starting to think that this isn't a good idea...
I knew the history, but watching this scared me a lot...
@@VictoriaCortes1717 the debris of the planes falling... Terrible :( :( :(
More American airmen were killed in the skies over the European Theater of Operations than American marine infantrymen were killed in the entirety of the Pacific War. This was a brutal airwar, it's good to see it respectfully and depicted as faithfully as possible with Masters of the Air.
@@mar7774Not surprised when you consider the Army Air Corp flew pretty much every day over Europe for 21/2 years and the Marines generally fought for a 2-3 months at a time with time in between for refitting and training. Even if they fought on every island it would've been around 18 to 24 months. Plus there wasn't as much of a risk of losing 10 soldiers in one act as there was in the air force.
My Dad started jis bombing missions in July 1944 from Attlebridge England. He flew 36 Bombing Missions and by luck he and his Crew survived unscathed, regardless of one forced landing and bombers riddled with holes. Upon completion of his 36 Missions, then volunteered for clandestine Missions into Neutral Sweden. He returned to the US in late May, 1945, to prepare/train for deployment to Japan. Thankfully that never came to fruition.
My father ,,radio op,,was flak hit over Austria,,on his 13 th mission,,23 days in the hospital,,,his plane was one of few very damaged,,that day,,,,the next mission his squadron flew ,,every airplane was shot down,,6 out of 6,,,,,60 aircrew that day plus the losses of the groups three other squadrons,,,ground crews waiting for some time hoping their "Crew" made it,,,,they agonized also,,,
Maybe something in me with losses in Viet,,,iv always suffered from it then and now,,
The Luftwaffe also changed tactics at one time to concentrate on one unit to hurt the morale of the unit. Although they did struggle later in the war, the British knew how important it was to replace the losses as quickly as possible. It was commonly referred to not letting a bunk get cold.
The 100th group was singled out by the germans for the "surrender incident" a B17
I'm struggling with the CGI on this. I haven't seen the series. Watching clips on here probably doesn't do it justice. But it looks like a PlayStation game.
Just went for a look, glad I did, I've known since my teens of the severe losses the US Airforces had...or so I thought but these numbers 😪 my God!
Yes I subscribed, & yeah, I've read some of the comments but I read them with respect, some sons of aircrew, some nephews & grandkids; & some of us as outsiders.
My family never got right into Europe, mainly South Pacific, North Africa & Crete ( Uncle Dave, 3yrs POW).
Point is, they all suffered, regardless of country, corp or rank but the pilot's suffered the most. I can't speak for anyone else but for me & my family, we are thankful to America for saving us, otherwise I wouldn't have a country 🇦🇺
To the men of the American Flying Force's, & to the women who loved them...THANK YOU!
🇦🇺 LEST WE FORGET 🇺🇸
I was posted in Munster- it’s a great place to live.
Our barracks was a great old Luftwaffe Barracks.
Some poster listed. He couldn’t believe that B-17 would have do those kind of maneuvers at the end of that mission. You should look up what happened to one of the Pacific on the reconnaissance mission think he basically dogfight Japanese zeros for almost an hour the bombers had to stay they were sitting ducks, if they would be able to maneuver the flock on the fires with the God is easy but they would’ve collided with each other and they would’ve never got back together as a formation
Boy i wish you'd make longer videos! Your voice is perfect for it and your research clearly is excellent! You have an amazing channel and i sincerely hope it grows for you.
Thanks! I appreciate it. I'd like to get into longer videos eventually. Lots of research and writing involved.
The casualty rate on these missions is so staggering that it makes me question the competence of the US and British bomber commands. Like, were these missions really worth it? I just can’t imagine a 90% casualty rate ever being worthwhile. I wonder what the consensus among WW2 scholars is today about how effective these missions even were.
It depends on who you ask but it seems that for all their effort and sacrifice the strategic bombing campaign had very little effect on the German war effort. At least for the first couple of years. The Germans had no compunction about using forced labor so production never really stopped and in truth the bombers weren’t really hitting their intended targets. Even when they did hit them the damage was often relatively light or quickly repaired. By 44-45 the attrition was starting to add up (I defy anyone to drop half a billion tons of explosives on a countries industry and not hit something important) though I do wonder how much of that was more due to the naval blockades of Germany. There were many claims made about what the bombers could accomplish going into the campaign and sadly that propaganda persists to this day.
@@CharlieNoodles In one or two ways it did for it forced Germany to bring back fighter squadrons from the combat fronts (particularly the Eastern Front) to defend the cities and forced German factories and manpower on anti-air defense.
Except it did.
An me 262 for example was an experimental tech.
It winded back production for months and that is essential for the war effort
Actually they had to learn on the job and that goes for the commanders . During 1943 the Germans were losing crews too. The following year the allies realised that oil was the weak link and throughout 1944 oil/ synthetic oil targets were destroyed so that by the time of dday and beyond the Luftwaffe and every other was struggling for fuel especially for training . IN 19944 the Germans were still able to inflict loses but could not cope with the attrition . WW2 was a massive costly conflict . Even Bomber Command and 8th Airforce together was quite a small percentage of the total deaths . This doesn't underestimate their sacrifice ; for the amount involved it was a very effective contribution to the war effort and almost 50% losses . All those including ,technically civilian merchant seamen , were brave beyond words .@@CharlieNoodles
@@AnthonyBrown12324 Just the 8th Air Force lost more men KIA then the ENTIRE Marine Corps did during WW2.
Read the book by Martin Caidin: Black Thursday: The Story of the Schweinfurt Raid. I read it back in the late 1980s, and it is excellent.
Yes it is.Been on my bookshelf since the early 70's.My grandmother's younger sister's husband flew on most of these missions.He was a Bombadier/Navigator with the 305th bomb group.They lost 13 out of 15 a/c on the Schweinfurt raid.I was pretty close to him growing up,but he never talked about any of it.I had to read books like this one to find out.Glad to see the younger generation show interest in these events,they should not be forgotten.
@@59ogreAgreed, these men should NOT be forgotten. Over time, they inevitably will be, as we are all forgotten eventually. But WW2 is still somewhat recent history.
BTW, I've been pretty critical of the clips I have seen of MOTA for technical inaccuracies, among other things. But I'm glad to see that this effort has been made to show what the air war over Europe was like, and to make the story available to younger generations.
I recommend that you read The Schweinfurt--Regensburg Mission by Martin Middlebrook. You will then see what an "excellent" aviation book really is. I've read some of Caidin's works, and none of them deserves that sort of praise. There are numerous very good writers of military aviation history, but Caidin isn't one of them. Since acquiring many aviation books by first class authors, I've thrown out everything I owned written by Caidin, with the exception of Thunderbolt.
@@ramonzzzz I'll probably order Middlebrook's book later today. I'm in need of a good read--especially with all the buzz about this series. Thanks for the tip.
@@lonzo61You won't regret it. I also recommend The Nuremberg Raid by the same author, if you're at all interested in the RAF's contribution to the bombing campaign.
The brass did see the need for long range fighters. It was solved when the P51 mustang came on line with the Merlin engine.
‘The real secret to the Mustang’s range was not the laminar flow control wing, or the Merlin engine. It was the addition of a fuselage tank behind the cockpit halfway through production of the P-51B. This additional internal tank increased fuel capacity by 85 gallons: original P-51Bs only had 184 gallons in the wings. The addition increased total fuel to 269 gallons or some 30%. Further adding two 75 gal drop tanks you reached 419 gallons. The later D&H models carried 110 gal drop tanks for 489 gallons.
What pushed up the odds for Rosie's survival over Munster was that he had previously been a gunnery pilot trainer in the US where he radically manoeuvered aircraft to test gunners' accuracy under battle simulations. Over Munster after the bomb load had gone he applied the same.
Some troops were drafted but many more VOLUNTEERED. An enlisted man was paid about $99.00 a month. Many of those soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines sent their money home to their mothers. There were brothers and sisters at home who needed clothing, shoes and food. Life at home was difficult… few families had electricity, or refrigerators, or telephones. or vehicles, or indoor plumbing. There were no vaccinations to prevent diseases like measles, chicken pox, mumps, polio, shingles. Just walk through any cemetery today and notice the memorial headstones and how short life was for families before the 1940s. We are the beneficiaries of the medical and technological advancements that often result in a war time. Now…to the moon and beyond! What would our ancestors say about that?
Outstanding! Keep up the good work.
My uncle flew a B-17. He was considered a lucky pilot. None of his crew were ever killed. I know he was involved with Operation Aphrodite and knew Joe Kennedy personally. Later they called him a "jump pilot" because he would take off in an explosive packed B-17, and at some point near the target he would jump out and the plane was then radio guided to the target. Oh and he had a collision with another B-17 over England while they were grouping for a bombing raid. I am going to share a story he told me about those "jump pilot" days. This was 1981, I was still in the USAF, and home for the death of a family member. We spoke about a television mini series about Joe Kennedy. The show depicted him as the only man who could fly that plane, and the Army pilot (my uncle) was unqualified and off he went into history. My uncle said, and after serving I believe it true, "Joe wanted to visit his girlfriend in London, so we swapped missions..." Remember he was a "lucky pilot".
Ever get a chance to see RAF Honington?
In reality, the aiming point on the Münster raid was the steps of the cathedral. Masters of the Air sanitizes this; it also downplays that these were suicide missions, and command knew that. As Donald Miller's book (that the series was based on) points out, the daylight precision bombing campaign was both a strategic and tactical disaster.
My dad was in Korea. i actually found a photo of him in Korea with his M1in Google Images. My wife's Dad was in WW2 in the Anzio Invasion tough sob I know he saw hand to hand combat there. When he passed we put his Burial Flag in a Case in a prominent place in our house. Neither would say a word about there service. Not a word. i wore my Dads green army jacket with the First Cav patches on the shoulders in High School. These guys saw some awful shit. B17 guys saw some incredibly brutal service.Taking off in the freezing cold every morning knowing what they were headed to holy shit.
Brilliant commentary, with great extra details. I'm subscribed 2U now
Amazing that bomber command enduring the kind of losses for that long before they got smart.
How many B-17 Forts were shot down in the war ?
They recently found a small brick building all overgrown on a former US air base, underneath the undergrowth was a large pile of 0.50 cal casings, under that was a complete skeletal arm....really makes u think.
Imagine the damage they could have wrought had they been flying heavy bombers .... like the Lancaster.
Its impossible for anyone who hasn't been through the experiences of a bomber crew in WW2 to even to begin to understand what it was actually like; flying straight and level for the bomb run whilst the enemy was doing everything it could to kill you at the same time.
Amazing that men went up there and embraced that. Brave brave souls! Live in fame or go down in flame.
Before the Raid Münster was one of the most beautiful historic cities in Germany. The "30 years war" ended in Münster and many houses from 1648 still stood. After the raid, Münster looked like a desert...
Correct... bombing civil targets and civilians is a war crime. What was the strategic use of destroying a medieval town?
@@3439645 Just what the inhabitants of Coventry were wondering.
Thank you for this video. Was the footage from a movie? If so which?
A book that tells the story of the British raids over Germany; Bomber by Len Deighton is well worth a read. So many young lives lost by the allies 💔🇬🇧🇺🇲💪
I did somewhere that the losses of B17 crews in WW 2 was 55,000,which if is accurate is mind- numbing to contemplate.I am in England & when I was at school our history teacher had been a navigator in a Lancaster bomber in the 'Dambusters' squadron that destroyed the dams in the Rhure,& I wondered how clise to death he had been.He,like those B17 crews, was a young man,many were barely in their 20s.Boys became men overnight.Bravery doesn't begin to cover it.
Anyone know where I can watch Masters of the air
Apple TV. It's a paid streaming service from Apple.
solarmovie :)
I’d always known the horror of this campaign from documentaries and movies like Memphis bell, 12 o’clock high and even one of the episodes from amazing stories. But think MoA will be the last word in describing this aspect of the war in Europe. There is something to be said for the fact that these crew members got back to safety if they survived and then had to turn around and do it over and over again. I wonder if this is a different mindset to the fighting in Bastogne or pelielu where you are always in the front line.
My uncle missed this mission. How so? Because his plane went down after Hanover a couple days before! He did escape and evade though. He thought that a lot of BS had been written about the 100th, but he was lucky to miss the missions that probably generated the "Bloody Century" nickname.
While the 100 Bomb Group was virtually wiped out in the Munster Raid, it took the German Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht focusing all their combined efforts on that one air group that day in order to bring them down. The other two air groups got through, completed their mission of bombing the rail yard and worker dormitories successfully, and did so with lighter than usual casualties as a result of the Germans trying to focus down one group. It was a tactic which the Germans were trying out on that mission to see if it would bring down bombers fast enough so that multiple sorties by their fighters during a single mission could take out an entire bomber stream.
Nice job, likely using same CGI and folks who did 9/11 stuff. Way to go, dudes. So much for historical accuracy. The story of these brave hearts now besmirched . . . and for what? A stipend?
Daylight bombing? Broad daylight? Are you mad?
Air War NW Europe
BRITISH AND AMERICAN BOMBER LOSSES HC Deb 10 May 1944 vol 399 c1934W
Mr. Stokes asked the Secretary of State for Air how many British and American bombers, respectively, were lost over Germany and Northern Europe during the first four months of 1944.
Sir A. Sinclair During the first four months of 1944, 1,041 British and 1,117 U S.A.A.F. bombers operating from this country were reported lost over Germany and Northern Europe.
'By March 1944, it became clear that the area offensive had fallen short of its goals and that Bomber Command was facing destruction by night fighters just as earlier it had faced destruction by day fighters.' - Noble Frankland, historian and Bomber Command veteran BBC Berlin Air Offensive page
Goering "But in the beginning, we had not fully assessed the possibility of daylight bombers. Our fighters could not cope with them. When we were able to do so, there was a pause and then you sent them out with fighter escort. The Flying Fortress, for example, had more than we had anticipated. Our estimate was incorrect."
LOST PRISON INTERVIEW WITH HERMANN GOERING: THE NAZI REICHSMARSCHALL’S REVELATIONS page
The war crimes commited during ww2 are really something... especially the bombing carries.. (axis and allies) people never learn or want to ..
Concrete pads for B-17s? I do not think so!
Some things to remember:
- Losses were cumulative. If they started with 100 bombers and lost just 5% per mission, after 14 missions more than half of them were lost. 8th Air Force crews needed 25 missions to go home.
- The movies show air battles lasting minutes. But the actual missions lasted hours, much of which was spent flying over enemy territory. Hours of dodging flak, then enemy fighters, then more flak, etc.
- The USAAF leadership clung to the doctrine that bombers such as the B-17 did not need fighter escort because their 8 or more 50 caliber machine guns plus formation flying would protect them. This may have been true in the 1920s and early 1930s, but the faster fighters of the late 1930s and on proved it was simply not true, and that fighter escort was needed.
- The USAAF leadership also clung to the doctrine of daylight precision bombing - that the Norden bombsight would put bombs exactly where they were aimed. In reality, there were just too many unknown variables (wind, airspeed, altitude) for that to work.
I'd like to see a drama done about Bomber Command, Royal Air Force, and the Nuremberg Raid. Over 100 bombers were lost on this nighttime raid, and it was rumoured at the time that the Germans were informed of the target so that they could be fed with false information regarding D Day.
My dad was born in Nuremberg and was 8 years old at the end of WWII. He remembers sitting in the basement of his apartment building during air raids, until he was relocated to the countryside along with other children. He also told me stories of life during the immediate aftermath of the war, after returning home to the city.
I think this is the only way I'll actually enjoy this show, as a backdrop for actual well told history.
Tolerate? It is amazing, WTF is wrong with you?
Deine aufsprache ist sehr gut
I know its the last thing anyone would want to do in real life but imagine bailing out of a stricken B-17, and landing unharmed behind enemy lines, and trying to work your way to safety....knowing large groups of enemy soldiers were looking for you as you made your way around the countryside....maybe avoiding towns....checkpoints......search parties...all looking for YOU .I have always loved the idea of that and love watching movies about that subject. years ago Tom Cruise was going to do a movie with just that story but it never got made.
I was born and raised in Germany. In the village where I lived in the southwestern part of the country before coming to the U.S., I heard that civilians captured an American crew member who had been shot down and beat the crap out of him, before turning him over to the authorities. At the end of the war, after being liberated from his POW camp, he and some of his buddies went back to that village, searched for the men who gave him the beatdown, and returned the favor likewise.
I live in Münster, a bit outside
this video is wonderful.
These battles depicted are to tens. The Germans are way to close to the bombers.
Please look at real camera footage for ww2 to compare. This is filmed to be exceptional intense.
Well having spoken with real veterans on both sides. Intense it was but I’m sure this film is over te top
When you look at the actual numbers, flak accounted for a staggering amount of damaged beyond repair and shoot downs vs enemy fighters. It wasn't until the last years that the Germans began using rockets and head on attacks. On top of that any B-17's that were damaged and had to fall out of formation were easy meat for the Luftwaffe. German aircraft zipping THROUGH formations is highly unrealistic as they would have been shredded by the box formation guns. They would typically go head on (3 seconds of shooting) and then dive down hard to avoid return fire. The Munster raid was an exception as the number of defense aircraft were twice (almost 3x) the normal seen during a raid.
Also, Me-110's and Ju-88's were "parallel" as in straight on as well but they dove on the formations and spread rocket attacks into the formation. Very effective but only possible when there wasn't any German targets below them. German 20mm cannon fire was relatively ineffective unless they hit the cockpit or an engine. A single engine loss meant the aircraft could be targeted later when it fell out of formation from not being able to keep up. Flak over the cities is what really damaged and destroyed at least half of the aircraft over Muster.
4:21 Since when is a Ju88 a fighter???
Great question. The Germans converted several variants to be heavy fighters with cannons mounted in the nose, as well as upward facing. They were mainly used as night fighters, but were also used in limited numbers in support of day time bomber interception.
Ju 88C was a destroyer variant.
Several different variants of the Ju-88 were manufactured as heavy day fighters or night fighters, carrying heavy firepower in the nose and fuselage, and they proved to be quite effective in those roles.
I remember they converted the Do 217 from a light bomber to a heavy fighter too, by adding like 4 20mm cannons to the nose
@@StoriesofWWIINot only that but the Nightfighter variants of several twin engine models like the BF 110 or Me 410 were also equipped with the best electronics the Germans had like the Lichtenstein radar which turned those machines into deadly night fighters. One of the most famous was a pilot called Schnaufer the spook of St Tronde who shot down 9 British bombers on his own in one night at the end of the war by only using the "schräge Musik" guns
Watching this video whilst laying on a couch in Great Yarmouth
All of them are murders or what do you think they hit?
Does anyone know what percentage of German fighters were shot down by the B-17’s gunners? The movies and such make it sound like they were all shot down by our fighters.
Per one of WWII US Bombers vids 8th AF heavies shot down 6,098 enemy aircraft.
Prob one of his vids has percentage.
My German grandad was on the AA guns in Munster!
They were not only sending up flak but those in target areas received bombs . There is an account in Battles With the Luftwaffe( Bowman and Boiten ) of the devestation of a flak position .Later in the war 14 and 15 year old boys were part of the flak crews . The amount of German artillery and ammunition tied down by allied bombers was a massive help to Allied front line troops
As the war progressed allied fighters carried auxillary fuel tanks that enabled them to accompany the bombers much further. That and the steadily diminishing number of German fighters reulted in little opposition except flak.
Great video
The Air Force KIA toll was higher than the US Marine Corps in WW2.
Instead of B he keeps saying E.
I heard of some "Milk runs" (or easy missions) that have gone super badly.
Absolutely enthralling and moving. God Bless all the Allied Servicemen of WW2,.
I'm surprised that they ever took off with the size of the crews balls. RIP lads . You gave your tomorrow for our today
Why were B29s never depolyed to Europe?
B29s came online mid to late 1944.
Nicely done.
having ignored warnings from those who had ben doing this for at least 2 yeas, that hubris and the failed concept of the B17, cost so many lives needlessly.
In the end the Norden was flawed, US bombing was no more accurate than the RAF, thus the US adopted H2X and had to wait until RR powered Mustangs with British made drop tanks came on stream...then the strategic bombing campaign started to see significant results. Allied cooperation.
You should have included the clip wherethe sky is filled with aircraft parts slowly raining down
Very good observation, and pieces of aircraft could damage another aircraft.
It was terribly unrealistic. Entire engines floating down like feathers...
and this is why i do not understand why the series is called Masters Of The Air; for most of the war they were not.
I cannot conceive how terrible it was for the bomber crews. Just humbling.
you mean for the guys who killed tens of thousands of defenseless civilians ?? yeah they are the real victims here
When the first prototype of the B-17 flew in 1935, and the actual YB-17 flew in December, 1936, the Army Air Force bombing brass aka the Bomber Mafia, believed that they had the plane, combined with the remarkable Norden bombsight, to achieve their dream of unstoppable, precision daylight bombing. The new plane was faster than any fighter plane, and by flying in box formation, with so many .50 caliber machine guns at a time when most fighter planes carried .30 caliber machine guns, by the time any patrolling planes or ground stations called in their locations, the bomber fleet would have accomplished its mission and be back home. There was no need for a long range escort fighter, due to such circumstances, and no such plane existed.
So, why then in 1943, were America B-17s and B-24s being shot down in appalling numbers, why had unescorted daylight bombing failed? The reason was the same thing that gave the Bomber Mafia its dream tools: Technology.
First, there was an absolute explosion of aircraft innovation, development and invention during that time. Fighter were now MUCH faster than the B-17 or B-24. And the Germans developed planes with the fire power to shoot down bombers. German planes were now equipped with .51 caliber machine guns, 20 mm and even 30 mm cannon, even unguided rockets.
But there was another development that really caused the bombers trouble: Radar. The same invention that helped the British win the Battle of Britain was helping the Germans easily detect and intercept the American bomber fleets.
As to the bombsight, there were a number of real-world issues that did not come out in the crystal-clear New Mexico bomb ranges, starting with clouds. Europe had many days of bad, weather and even some clouds over the target could throw off aim. Add in being under fire, your plane getting jostled from flak and it getting hit, the constant exposure of the bombsight to -50-degree weather, and the effect that had on lubricant and the metal inside the bombsight, and the natural tendency of bombardiers under fire to "pucker," as one historian put it, causing the bombardier to slightly change his angle of view through the sight, all could contribute to inaccuracies.
The need for a lang range escort became obvious, and efforts were made. But the P-47 in August, 1943, had only a range of 375 miles with a belly tank. By November 1943, the P-38 was available with a range of 520 miles, but it had issues at high altitudes. Finally, March 1944 arrived with P-51 Mustang, a plane when using drop tanks that had a combat range of more than 600 miles, enough to get past Berlin and back. Crucially, the order was given to allow the P-51s to go after the Luftwaffe, not be tied to the bombers. The bombers at this point became bait and would incur heavy losses. But at this point there were so many more bombers that the same loss on a raid in 1943, was instantly replaceable for a mission in 1944. The P-51s, and P-47s were also given the order to attack German airfields on their way back, an order that resulted in many US fighters getting shot down from ground fire. Although it would remain in use into the Korean War, the P-51 was more vulnerable to damage than the P-47; the Mustang had a liquid cooled engine while the Thunderbolt had an air-cooled engine. Coolant leaks to the P-51 meant it was going down sooner or later. But between the constant attacks on German airfields and the P-51 winning the battles in the skies (and also the P-47s for the length of their escort, air superiority was achieved by the Allies, with it soon becoming air supremacy.
The bravery of the bomber crews simply cannot be understated and it is good to see that they are being memorialized by this show.
Lest We Forget, Those Who Gave All 💪
Respect and R.I. P. all that participated in that bloody campaign. Old men argue, but young men pay the cost. No one wins.😞
Rosie Rosenthal later led the largest American bombing raid on Berlin which started a fire so large that it burned unchecked for 4 days, destroying most of the city center. This must have been a very satisfying retribution for him since he was Jewish. An attorney before the war, he participated in the Nuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals after the war.
Not to mention that raid on Berlin directly led to the death of Roland Freisler, the President of the People's Court. Among the cases he was about to pass sentence that day-obviously to the guillotine-was a resistance member Fabian von Schlabrendorff. Fabian would be re-tried, acquitted, and later on become a judge in the Constitutional Court of West Germany. A tale of three lawyers, indeed.
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Killing civilians was not truly satisfying to anyone, except maybe Bomber Harris. It was ‘morale bombing’. Some Americans looked at it as simply war, and ‘they deserved it.’ while others took it home with them. Spaatz, and the Air Force headquarters in Washington, fought against bombing city centers and the civilian population as the US took heavy losses to bomb ‘economic’ targets. When Churchill and the RAF tried to drag the Americans into “Thunderclap” it was felt that they were trying to ‘tar’ the US with the same repercussions that they themselves would eventually experience from the aftermath of ‘morale bombing’ as the US had always taken the high moral road. Arnold’s assistant chief of planning and operations simply stated “If is contrary to our national ideals to wage war against civilians.” As the Russians were closing in on Berlin the true economic ruin that Germany found itself in, by strategic bombing, was not known, and under pressure from Arnold, Spaatz relented and they bombed the government buildings in the center of Berlin on February 3, (at least hitting an important target in the city center) which you reference. To bring it into context, with regard to the bombing of Japanese targets, the later bombings of Japanese cities was against a country where all citizens were considered combatants by not only the Emperor, but by their own admission; also, manufacturing was spread out in and amongst the civilian population, which helped in the development of the ‘Sinister Factor’. Berlin was hit by the 8th mostly for its industry, and in order to bring the Luftwaffe up in the execution of Operation Pointblank where the “Boeings” were actually part bait. Satisfaction was surviving and bringing your crew through alive. I had a well-known professor who was a bombardier in the Eighth (not a toggler) and he spent most of the rest of his life running from the dead below, and he was Jewish too, hence the reply to your comment; also, as the February 3, raid was considered a crossing of the line. He became a little left of left on his trail to pacifism, as a result of the war, and I disagreed with him on many issues but I respected him, knowing where he had been and what he was trying to live with. He remained in the ETO past the end and his best memory was reading A Tree Grows in Brooklyn in the nose of a 17 being ferried back home. The largest American raid on Berlin by the Eighth was actually on March 18, 1945 and they went after the rail yards; the bombing was not completely accurate, as most often was the case, and bombs dropped on the city killing what they estimate were 3,000 civilians. Rosenthal’s last mission was February 3, 1945, to Berlin (target: government buildings and city center), so he could not have been on the March 18 raid, or the largest American raid on Berlin. I haven’t seen Masters of the Air but I read the book a while back and it does contain some minor errors, but it is broad and expansive enough where some of those errors are to be expected. Getting back to Rosenthal himself, he was much more than an amazing, and highly decorated, man. And as for the men of the Mighty Eighth: In 1980 I crawled into the nose of a static B-17 at Chino Airport, towards a man talking to himself in German. When he saw me come through, he told me that he could not believe that he was "...sitting where these great men sat." He had been a young teen in Germany when the ‘Boeings’ flew through heavy flak to avoid accidentally hitting his town near Marienburg and he knew this from the Luftwaffe pilots who went to a beer hall in his town and talked about the bravery of the American bomber crews who never turned back, and how they stuck to the known humanity of Americans.
@@yaweebutrkrawee6991 the red thread of fate, am right?
@@yaweebutrkrawee6991 Roland Freisler was a monster; he played a leading role in the Nazification of German law and participated in the Wannsee conference. He was put in charge of the People's Court, an already-low political operation where he presided over show trials meant to intimidate defendants and public alike. When the USAAF's bombs killed him, a German hospital worker saw the Hanging Judge's corpse brought in and called it "God's Verdict."
Eagen was a good commander. Yes, I want revenge, but my crew is in danger, we bail! Yes, we could continue to argue, but he is younger and stubborn, I jump