Roland Fantom EX // ACB vs Zen-Core ABM
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- Опубліковано 20 чер 2024
- For the first time we have ACB and Zencore models in the same synth. In this video I compare the new ACB (Analog Circuit Behaviour) synth models in the Roland Fantom to its existing ABM (Analog Behaviour Modelling) Zen-Core Model Expansions.
In this I demo how the SH101 models differ from my vintage original, and show how the Jupiter 8 models have different functionality.
ACB is more processor intensive for your more extreme solo sounds, whereas ABM gives us more polyphony and layering options. To keep it simple in the video I refer to the ABM versions as Zen-Core, but just remember they are their own technology that is different to the standard Zen-Core synth engine
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• From The Studio
0:00 demo track - BIG FM from the JP8 ACB
2:23 Similarities between ACB and Zencore
4:40 SH-101 Resonance vs Vintage Synth
7:45 Jupiter 8 FM tones
11:05 Intro Track Explained
#roland #fantom #expansion #demo
I did the same test using the Zen Core Juno-106 on my Fantom, the ACB Juno-106 on my System-8 and my Juno-106. I had the same results: Zen Core is definitely close, and eminently usable, but the ACB is almost identical - and any differences are most likely due to aging 40-year-old analog circuitry in the Juno.
Acb just goes so deep into sound detail the filters are very close. Unlike acb, Abm engines don’t have exact filter modeling I believe it’s all just one “classic Roland” style filter instead. This is one thing I love about acb.
ACB is king. There is a setting in the VSTs that let you digitally age your synths, so they should match perfectly. Not sure why that feature isn't exposed in the System 8 though, it's easily one of my favorite synths.
@@SlaserX The aging parameters are definitely available in the System-8 ACB models.
@@SlaserX Get v2 of the Juno 60/106 or Jupiter 4/8 or JX-3P plug outs and use the color knob to control the "circuit mod". Amazing difference and fat sound.
excellent analysis and presentation! thanks starsky! great job!
Still not paying 3k for a Fantom, but t's great that ACB is finally in the Fantom, I've always had a preference for it. Something about zencore just tends to sound plasticy so much more ... I can really hear the difference even in your examples (though maybe it would be helped just by EQing some of the upper harmonics harshness out ...)
Thank you for this comparison! I just bought the Fantom 8 and immediately upgraded to EX, and I've been playing around with it but haven't done this comparison on my Fantom yet. Still hoping for the SH-101 ACB before X-mas! Happy Holidays!
Hope you enjoy it!
So we back to ACB finally!
Imagine this: the Jupiter X with the Abc engine.
They should have done that in the first place.....and leave the green ufo synth for the zen-core engines.....
Don't hold your breath...
Roland Engineers did a great job to bring back ACB to the Flagship Fantom model. I tried yesterday and shocked.. presets & sound quality was amazing. Beside, German Grand V Piano didn’t influence me so much. I can’t really understand why Roland can’t make a sample based realistic piano sound while Yamaha Montage & Nord doing it
Roland V-Piano has string resonance! Yamaha, Nord, Korg, etc. are all sample based. When you play it, you notice digital right away. But not with V-Piano! Check out my latest video about it.
There are advantages of modelled over samp[led - most notable in the decay phase - where samples can be heard looping at times. You dont get that with modelled pianos. Personally I prefer the V-Piano tones to anything Yamaha or Nord have, and the German Grand is the best of those V-Piano sounds. Its just personal.
@@XPJV I thought the original V-Piano was the best sounding digital piano I'd ever heard, and I also loved the 1st or second gen supernatural pianos like in the RD700NX. The newer stuff, though, just sounds somewhat awful to me in spite of the fact that I agree with the preference for string resonance and all of that. I have a Fantom 8 and have been very disappointed in all the V-Piano sounds, which are terrible to my ear. The SuperNatural tones on Fantom sound much better, but they also lack string resonance.
@Lazerlike42 ,
In order to make V-Piano sounds good, you got to tweak the knobs. Otherwise out of the box sounds are not impressive at all! Check out my V-PIANO latest demo..
@XPJV I've spent an awful lot of time tweaking things to try to fix the V-Pianos. The biggest problems are that they all just sound muffled or muddy and that they are lifeless.
To fix the muffled sound, I've opened the lids all the way, adjusted the EQ extensively, and done plenty of other things. It just has no clarity to any of the sound regardless of what I do. The best solution I found was to try to layer one of the SN pianos on top, but this then winds up creating unpleasant issues with phasing or slight differences in tuning.
The lifelessness is especially surprising because normally it's the lack of string resonance that makes a digital piano sound lifeless or unmusical, but in this case the V-Piano sounds much less lively and much less musical than not only the on-board SN pianos, but even the old Fantom G, Fantom X, and SRX pianos you can load on the Fantom.
I did check out your video, but if I understand you correctly in that video you're showing that you couldn't get even the new German Grand sounding good and had to supplement it with other sounds to give it the sound you wanted.
Cool! A bit off topic but did you ever do a review of the Roland se02 boutique analog synth? Would love to see your review of that 😊 thanks for all amazing content 😊👍
Very descriptive video , subscribed
Thanks.
Good comparison. I was happy with ZenCore when I had my Roland Cloud on. Then I found some Jup8 patches stopping my setup during soundcheck before a gig. This was due to an idiot licence checking (you need to connect to their cloud once a week, if you forget it, everything will block).
I immediately deleted every Roland software from my DAW. Pity, quality was very good. And now ACB seems even better. Any chance to use that on a pure software setup?
I will try to see if my Arturia and Cherry Audio things will be able to cross mod.
Hoping Roland will be able to offer a decent package without idiot sofware protection scheme. But I guess I am not making them change opinion.
Jupiter-X needs the acb stuff. the interface is perfect for it.
I actually really like zen-core models in a lot of cases. they are musically effective.
pobably the cpu is to weak for that
@@novalogue Yeah, think the Jupiter X only has one BMC chip and the Fantom has two.
At the start of the cross-mod section, the ACB square wave reminded me of the equation-driven DDS2 square on the Super 6, while the Zencore square wave reminds me more of the sample-driven DDS1 square wave instead.
Also, that ACB cross-mod got suuuper gnarly, I love when the harmonics kinda abruptly start over. It reminded me of the very beginning of that all-synths Doctor Who intro (the one that used an Odyssey and a few others!)
I have a Roland System 1, MC707 (Zen Core), and FA07 with Roland expansions. The total combined is less than flagship Fantom and yet I have hundreds and hundreds of sound options that are usable for me.
Cool riff!
We need more of those sounds at 11:26 😂 🔥🔥🔥
"You wouldn't normally take things to those extremes." Mate, you don't know me. :)
The thing that really stands out to me about the 6:50 example is the pretty dramatic key-off effect in the Zencore model which is lacking in the real and ACB ones. That might just be a buried setting somewhere but, as well as the very obvious top and bottom end differences, stands out as being just Wrong.
For sounds without a fast attack, the ABM expansions are fine.
Good John Foxx vocal there :)
around the 4.10 mark is a good example of the subtle difference. The ACB model has free running Socilators. ABM/Zencore doesn't. You can hear the softer edge to the ACD as the two oscillators start at different phased where as the ABM/Zencore is a hard leading edge as both oscillators start in sync at zero phase. After that point the two Oscillators start to diverge in the ABM as well - so once held theres not such a big difference. You may prefer one over the other for specific parts but there is that difference, even on those sounds where ABM is very close.
If it’s under £200 I’m in !! Other than that softube & arturia with my cheap ass midi controller wins hands down
BTW did you compared all thevlatest versions of minimoog's virtual clones? :)
Not yet. There are so many it gets overwhelming.
Some noice disco biscuit choons at the end there 😂👌
IDK, I just sold my Fantom 7. I really wanted to love it and parts of it I did but notes dropping out, many dated sounds, loud action... just didn't work for me. It has the potential to be one of the best out there... hopefully the next version will be!
Will this also work with the Roland Fantom O series or just the full price Fantom line?
Just the 6, 7 n 8 I think - just going off what someone mentioned so better to check.
It seems to use the V-Piano’s slot for processing power and since that isn’t on the 0 I don’t see it coming…. But only time will tell.
Super mad I sold my Fantom 6. ACB thru the analog filter & outputs would have been perfect! Got the Polybrute out of it though...
Yeah... I never demo'd through the analog outs - although I did play with it for a long time as a master/DJ style filter when building the demo track - very cool, plus the overdrive.
How much polyphony do you get on these new ACB expansion related models? Can't seem to find that on the Roland site.
Eight
@@SunlightOfTheSpirit Thanks. Kind of hard to find that on the spec sheet.
Difference between the Jp-8 and ACB jp-8?20000 euro.
So basicly you could have designed fat analogue sounding drums,kicks as well? Whould have been nice to see that. ACB coming to Tr8s as well? Maybe some techno bass line design.
The TR8S is already ACB. That’s how it replicates all those classic analog Roland machines with the same parameters as the originals. They’re not samples.
How does this compare to the ACB in the System 8 or is it identical code?
Identical.
@@StarskyCarr So the Phantom has AT right, which means you can modulate parameters via AT?
That’s why I got the System-8 as well as the Jupiter-X. They are different.
Great review. If you had to buy only 1 synth to make electronic music (Rival Consoles,four tet etc) would you buy a Fantom with its all round performance,drums,vintage models,etc or a Waldorf Idrium….
Difficult choice. For pure sound design options the Iridium has it… for creating tracks the Fantom.
Rival Consoles sound is defined by analog poly synth sounds, so I would not recommend either of your suggestions.
That's why i love Starsky channel. Nobody of big reviewers made a comparision (ok maybe some did i just haven't seen it). For an obvious reason... Dunno what all the fuss is about. VA is a VA now matter how you slice it. Yup there's a difference. Not that much to my ears. Sometimes ZenCore is better than ACB, so i can see no point in buying EX stuff except if one cannot sleep well without emulated SH-01 sounds. Maybe if you are hardcore fan of Roland sound than it's a Yes.
That's like saying analog is analog no matter how you slice it, yet you can get 2 analogs and they will sound entirely different, why because of how the architecture is. This is the same as VA, they don't all sound the same and that was the point of Starsky's vid.
Any chance this update will also come to the Jupiter X/Xm?
Probably not, same as the Fantom 0 series. I think the Fantom has 2 chips in it
Dont feel like youre missing out, its 99 percent versus 99.1 percent
@@a-nus Exactly, I can't notice much if anything between them. And the odd time I can, quick tweak and it's gone.
HOW MUCH WAS ALL OF THOSE KEYVBOARDS
So you can only have one ACB part?
That’s correct.
2 words: Album. When? 😃
I think this is a user error. Zencore has an expanded range for the filter and resonance that can be toggled on/off. It sounds like it is on for the SH-101 demo, which is why the extremes sound different. You also get a Moog and Prophet filter with Zenology, so make sure you are on the correct one. I have driven myself crazy with ACB vs Zenology and have come to the conclusion Zenology is identical sound wise to ACB, but has more options that need to be set correctly to achieve the desired result. You also get access to the base level sound engine on Zenology Pro, which eliminates the need for any of the model expansions if you know what you are doing. I caveat this statement is based on like for like options for each model as there are cases where there are differences that (I think) relate to different “extras” over vintage models. Also, I work in a daw so can’t say for sure the options are exactly same as on Fantom.
Not user error, there are differences - it’s well known, but as I say and demo only in the extremes. Nice info though 👍
While I would love to get the hardware, the Ultimate cloud works just fine for me. $1000 bucks over five years and I 'll have 10 lifetime keys. Now, if I could just get out of pain so I could sit down and truly use them. Haha😜🎶🎶🎹🎹🎶🎶Play On
Imagine Roland going bankrupt one day or deciding to phase out Cloud business...
Stay for the info, laugh at the lyrics. Nice that Roland is bringing ACB to Fantom. I'm not gigging at the moment, so I've passed on having a Fantom for the moment, but it's a great "in the field" board. For studio I'm looking at the new Glaxias (Galaxian?), which is interesting but maybe needs to grow up a little bit still.
Galaxias.
Yes, I know, @@jimbotron70 ;-)
ACB is the tits, people keep complaining that Roland hasn't released a System 16 or w/e, the reason is that ACB is harder on processors than Zencore. When you understand how cpu intensive it is, you will then appreciate more why you can get a VA to sound very close to analog.
I can run up to 8 ACB on a 2015 old laptop. It's more about Roland cpu, not powerful enough for a modern workstation.
The Fantom can run only 1 instance on part 1.
@@jno8039Not really, it’s because of the BMC chip. It’s designed for ABM, hence it can handle more. The Fantom range has 2. Even your old laptop is designed with processing in mind, so its ability to run single layer ACB models. That’s how they designed the systems.
how can it be ACB if iots about the codes not the printed circuit, anyway it is confusing.
ACB is code that models individual components and circuits in order to produce the tone. ABM as used by the original phantom emulations is modelling the tone, but not from a component level. ACB is more accurate but uses more CPU .. and yes it’s confusing!
Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwew❤
Was going to buy the Jupiter X…I’ll be getting a Fantom 7 instead
Yessir
ABM it's just a macros for ZenCore engine but ACB it's emulation
yeah.. they're an 'add-on' to the zencore - so you don't automatically have them on some systems - hence making the differentiation
The S-1 has me sold on roland's ACB tech. Running the S-1 thru a tape loop mangler as we speak.
Roland has never liked to make things easy for themselves. I think this synth / workstation could free up a lot of table and keyboard stand space for performers using a lot of Roland equipment. It definitely isn't for me. I have ONE Roland synth (the JX-10, better known as the SuperJX, that has been with me since the 90'es). And I don't really do massive synth rigs anyway. But I can see that it's useful in a Roland heavy environment, and it's sounds brilliant. The price tag is not brilliant, though. And that is something that's going to repel a lot of musicians who can (and will) find similar solutions on a PC and use that instead. I have always loved the sound of a Roland synth, but my wallet suffers.
I am happy, however, that they've spent some time on the SH-101. It's a lovely little synth that usually gets a bit "forgotten" since they're modelling the Jupiters and Junos all the time.
The impressionbI have between Zen Core x ACB is that ACB sounds on the exemples given, "creamier/richier/deeper" and more "complex/detailed". ZenCore is good too. Just not as good. :)
Can't see spending 4k on a keyboard that then has to be upgraded to get these sounds not for me.but interesting.
It's very hard to hear the difference between acb and zen-core in a mix.....it's more the peace of knowing you have them....;)
It's sounds so digital. I don't know how it can sounds analog, if it's digital and sounds same? Maybe I have a wrong ears or wrong headphones, but..
Roland Cloud & Zen Core, shudder.
Zencore version is better. The acb versions don't respond to cc controls on the Fantom. Needs to get sorted.
Zencore sounds sharper, ACB sounds duller. That's about it.
Basically
But which one sounds more faithful to the original?
@@jimbotron70
Since I don't have any Roland vintage analog synths, I couldn't say. I do know that most VAs don't sound like the original vintage analog synths that I own (Minimoog, Oberheim, Sequential Circuits).
Welcome to bad gear….
The show about the woooOoOOOoorld’s most hated audio tools.
ha ha yes indeed, it seems to be ticking all the boxes ....
Lol😂