Spider-Verse and The "Canon" of Suffering
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 вер 2024
- spoilers. the new Spider-Verse is amazing. so amazing, in fact, that it got me thinking about some theological stuff. let's talk.
Patreon: / houstoncoley
Listen to my new podcast: artwithin.subs...
Twitter: / artwithinpod
Letterboxd: letterboxd.com...
Substack Blog: houstonproduct...
TeePublic Merch: tee.pub/lic/zLb...
hey. good to see you! I'm glad you're here. do you resonate with the thoughts in this video? who's your favorite Spider-Person?
get early videos, audio movie reviews/rambles, weekly writing and updates, and other stuff by joining my Patreon community here: www.patreon.com/user?u=1017531
listen to my podcast on Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/5D05xQLFs1imw3OTwWy3V2
Finally somebody talking about this 😄 Just briefly, I follow a philosophy called objectivism, and without going into the details, it means as a consequence that I see tropes everywhere. I find cinema both enjoyable but unbelievably predictable and so this film for me was a breath of fresh air for all the reasons you've highlighted and more. Its no coincidence its had a profound affect on you because of your Christian morality and has you thinking. Altruism, selflessness & sacrifice is the foundation for everything in cinema to culture, to politics. It shapes everything and its not very often questioned. What you missed in your thought process here is that Miles is being asked or told he must sacrifice his dad -somebody close to him that he values highly, one single person for the good of the many and of existence itself. This is why literally every single spiderman choses the latter. Its the train track scenario of save one or save the larger number of ppl. The only other movie I know of that wrestles with this dilemma and goes against "Canon " is the matrix trilogy. Neo is an anomaly like Miles , and every previous version of the one has sacrificed himself so that humanity is saved -even if it means their continued enslavement so that the cycle can begin over again. But Keanu Reeves' Neo choses a very different path. He choses to save Trinity even though thr Architect has told him it will lead to the extinction of the human race. Neo ultimately ends up saving everybody by pursuing this path and even secures a peace with the machines ending the cycle.
One user on twitter understandably said that this movies message has left them confused. He said "i don't know who im supposed to be rooting for here " and why ? Because Miles' actions will be viewed as selfish. Imagine Yoda from star wars being present in this movie. What would he tell Miles ? The same thing he told Anakin skywalker, which is that he is needs to forgo attachment, and is plagued by jealousy ( the fear of loss ) and this is flirting with the dark side. What does anakin desire? To save his wife from death . A vision he's had. And isn't it interesting that while every star wars fan including the creators, say anakin was being selfish, we're told luke for wanting to save his father is selfless? I'm not surprised by the mental gymnastics and confusion. At one point luke says to yoda "am I supposed to let my friends die ?" And yoda says yes . Luke refuses to accept this. The goal of luke skywalker written by yoda and obi wan is to destroy darth vader , who they see as too far gone and irredeemable. Only luke believes he can reach him.
In conclusion, I don't know exactly how this trilogy will end. I'm sure the writers aren't objectivists and won't offer quite the same answers, but its great that Miles is challenging this idea of determinism & suffering. A thing to remember, that time Peter Parker let that criminal escape when he could of done something haunted him for ever, because that criminal ultimately killed his uncle Ben. This was a choice. Miles is now in a situation where he has the foresight to know his father is going to be killed , but is being told he must let him die. If he kets his father die when he knows he could do something, it would haunt him forever . This is why for thd first time in a long time, I'm really really rooting for the hero here.
I think a lot of creatives think that we need to see our heroes suffer in order to give them stakes and depth. For example up until the late 2000's in the comic, Barry Allen's mother wasn't murdered. It wasn't until Richard Donner's Superman that Pa Kent died.
I think theres ways to create conflict and tension in a heroes life without needing to fridge people in a heroes life.
For example, even in the original Spider-Man run, Peter was still selfish and petty even after the death of Uncle Ben. It was in seeing how his actions were hurting his loved ones that he finally matured and outgrew it. Honestly I could even do up a Batman origin without the Wayne's dying if need be.
Look at Firestorm in DC, no dead parents, he just learned to be a hero through the mentorship of Dr. Stein. Seeing our heroes struggle can be entertaining, but it doesn't always have to come from death. It paraphrase Alfred Hitchcock, killing off a character creates a moment of drama and emotion, but leaving them alive for future conflict gives the reader years and years of drama and conflict.
favorite Spider-Person? Gotta be Spider-Punk. In a way he was the perfect "mentor" for Miles in the movie
Hell yeah man.
I took it as “yes, suffering is one of the things that make us who we are. But i am not defined by my suffering, and preventing it in the future is unequivocal good”
this. this is so profound. and so spot on. ...accidental pun?
I'm going to save this quote because this is something I've been trying to put into words for a long time thank you
Hello Ben From Canada! I love your work on Mr Sunday Movies, and it's cool to see that you're a fan of Houston 😃
The irony in the way that I've seen a lot of the spider-verse fandom define the characters by their suffering (or possible future suffering). I hope the next part of the movie gives those fans a wake up call.
I think @SarcasticChorus bought up a good point in his video. Uncle Ben didn't die because spiderman has to suffer, Uncle Ben died because of Peter Parker's INACTION. "With great power comes great responsibility" Uncle Ben didn't have to die, had Peter taken action and stopped the mugger, his uncle would still be alive. Miguel and the rest of the spider cult (what I'm calling them) think that constantly suffering is the key to being spiderman. The key to being spiderman is being responsible with the powers you've been given and understanding that there are consequences when you DON'T take action.
Or, at least that's my take away.
Like, how many of them are still even saving lives in their own universes anymore instead of just going to different universes to patch up anomalies that happen to be there back and forth?
This is what most excites me going into the next film- this film sets up a real interrogation of the “Superheroes (but Spider-Man especially) as perpetually suffering martyrs” thing that’s been linked to the genre’s mythos forever.
It seems right now like we’re building to a story that finally says “Spider-Man should be allowed to be happy.”
That's been brewing for a long time. One More Day is perhaps the biggest inflection point along Marvel's cursed path. If Miles can break that trend and open up the options for Spiderfolk to be happy, we could well see a renaissance for the characters. It's about time, I say. As in, *long* past time.
the fact that Mayday is an anomaly because MILES inspired Peter to be HAPPY and have a CHILD is just wild. And bet money if Miguel told Peter his baby girl would have to DIE he'd throw a FIT
It’s funny you draw this connection between the long-accepted Spider-Man story and a common Christian way of thinking, because Spider-Man was created as a very Jewish-coded character, and the Jewish culture is much more focused on challenging accepted beliefs and norms and asking questions and such. So I’m realizing now that this film is actually a fascinating rumination on the Christianization of heroism contrasted with the Jewish culture that was at the root of so many of these characters and even the entire comic book medium.
Now *that* is an incredibly perceptive take. This is why I love the comments section.
wow, I never thought of it that way. but that makes perfect sense. ...also kinda makes it sad that Disney owns Marvel... but yeah, it leaves space for Spidey to be even more rebellious.
ayo I didn't think about THAT.
That’s the most random perspective to have while watching a movie about a Puerto Rican Spider-Man
That’s the thing tho, you’re right, Miles’ story/the movie is informed by his Puerto Rican heritage as well as him being half black.(like the music, his relationship w/ his parents, etc.) But the story is also influenced by Jewish and Christian themes because that is the origin of Spider-Man which Miles is a version of. And Miles’ story manages to tie them all together so well that people can relate to it through their own culture’s perspective. So it’s not random at all when you consider all these cultures and more are present and work together in this movie.
This movie has A LOT in common with The Matrix Reloaded:
1. The main villain wants to destroy all of existence and is created by choices made by the hero in the first movie.
2. There's a plot twist about predestined events in time and the main character being an anomaly who tries to break the cycle by saving his loved ones.
3. The movie ends on a cliffhanger where the main character is trapped in an unknown place and needs to be rescued by his friends.
Totally my first thought coming out, real Reloaded energy. I was totally there for it!!
I do question whether they're going to bring up the fact that Spot and Kingpin have more responsibility in the anomaly that led to so much happening for good (such as Miles) or for bad (such as Spot's mutation). I feel like Miles ended up being everyone's scapegoat for the problems associated with the anomaly & a Spider being taken from another Earth, when he didn't choose for that to happen or to get bitten, but Kingpin & Spot chose to mess with dimensions w/ the Collider. I think Miles was in a reasonable state of reaction from finding out the Spider wasn't meant for him, being blamed by Miguel & Spot, and the demise of his father in another Earth as a result of the Spider being taken; I'm hoping this next movie will give him the chance to call out how unreasonable it is to blame him for Peter's death and being bitten.
Except this is a much more coherent and emotionally resonant story than The Matrix Reloaded lol. Even as someone with a lot of nostalgia for it, it’s a very messy movie.
Very interesting how The Spot acts as a foil to Miles in this regard as well, in that, while Miles is active and attempts to defy ‘the canon’ and avoid the tragedy that comes with the conventions of super-heroism, of his existence, Spot is seemingly content being passive and allowing the tragedy in his life to define him. While Miles challenges the notion that he is destined for sadness, Spot embraces the negative elements of his life, wallowing in his own desire for revenge against Miles to the point that even after he begins enjoying his powers, which were the reason he began his villain arc in the first place, he still continues his vendetta for Miles even though his whole motivation for attacking him has been made irrelevant, or as you put it, the bad in his life has been redeemed. Yet, rather than allow the redemption of what he perceives to be a ‘curse’ - from something he hated himself for being stuck with to something he was able to enjoy using and be glad about - rather than allowing that to become a source of happiness, he continues to attack Miles for doing it to him because he chooses to be defined by the tragic moment that his ‘curse’ was for him in its inception.
In this sense, he’s the perfect villain for Miles because he acts as an excellent contrast, opposing Miles’ active optimism with a passive, accepting negativity that comes off as very nihilistic, fitting if you continue the religious allegory you were looking at as the battle between Miles and Spot now becomes an ideological one between putting in the effort to search for God; for purpose and simply deciding to settle for a meaningless life. And with the next film promising to go Beyond the Spider-Verse, implying that Miles will successfully shatter the preconceived notions about the way Spider-Man must be, and therefore implying that he will find a truer purpose, I’m excited to see what they will actually give to his character in this regard to fulfil his arc, and how it will oppose the development of Spot for a climactic showdown.
Very well done video essay, gave me a lot to think about in regards to the movie! I’ve only seen it once, yet it’s astonishing how deep it is in regards to having several layers of complex themes at work, which can take quite a while to mentally unpack. I’ve spent quite a bit of my time recently just ruminating on the movie to try and mentally map out what I think it’s trying to say purely because it just gives you so much to chew on, and it’s super helpful to see the perspective of insightful people such as yourself when doing so. Great work!
perfect comment
Tbf tho, the Spot can't really live amongst society anymore and can't make an honest living. It's easy to say that he's letting his tragedy define him, but he's been turned into a monster and shunned by society, including his family.
What alternatives are available to someone like him.
@@blackmanwithcomputer I agree, it's understandable that it's harder for Spot to accept his tragedy and mutation compared to Miles'. It does make me wonder if Spot will ever doubt the validity of blaming Miles for his situation in the next movie when Miles was only trying to stop Kingpin, who was actively causing dimensional issues with the Collider. While i understand it was needed for the plot and fits with Spot's personality, I do wonder if he ever questioned that entering the lab/observation room close to a volatile Collider with superheroes and Kingpin fighting might not be the best plan.
i noticed that miguel kinda has that same mentality too
One of the most amazing things about this movie to me is how it serves as a commentary about the history on how Marvel Editorial and slightly uptight fans have treated the spider-man character throughout the years. The first movie was all about the idea of how “everyone can wear the mask”. It’s not about who you are, or the tragic experiences you go through themselves. Rather, it’s about how you turn the tragic experiences which you go to into a positive “pay it forward” mentality to protect those who need protecting. Yet, so many focus on the former, those specific experiences, as what makes the character, and ignore the aspect of the choices you make following those hardships.
You can see this so many times in Peter’s history. This most recent run by Zeb Wells as well as one more day is a clear example where they’re putting Peter through these near character-assassinating circumstances all for the sake of the antiquated status quo that Peter can never be happy and can never truly grow up to find stability. He’s eternally stuck in this weird man-child state where he’s constantly suffering.
What I love about Miles in these movies is that he’s the perfect antithesis to that. To me, these movies are showcasing that he is the apex of what it means to be spider-man. He gained superpowers completely by freak accident. He wasn’t metaphysically destined by reality to become spider man. Hell, he wasn’t even supposed to be spider-man. But he still does it and takes the mantle with absolute stride, fully committing to the responsibility to help others simply just because he has the powers (no matter how hard it gets). He doesn’t fit the editorial status quo, and that’s what makes him so great.
While I know you're probably not a comics guy (and to be perfectly clear that doesn't make anyone less of a "true" Spider-Man fan) Miles' whole struggle of having to rebel against what a higher force (usually Marvel Editorial) says that his life has to be is so so so compelling as someone who's read comics for years and usually enjoys most the one's that try to push forward and create a new definition for what Spider-Man can be in spite of the constant pushback from higher-ups who say he has to be this one particular thing.
For decades now, Peter Parker's main nemesis has been Marvel writers.
25:16 Or in my case, coming out of the closet and leaving the religion that insisted that self-inflicted suffering in this life through the denial of oneself for was justified for the sake of a reward of an afterlife. The movie and your video got me thinking: the Cannon of suffering in narrative and religious texts can either be a comfort and a source of relatability or it can be weaponized as a dogma to rationalize abuse. "We all feel pain" turns to "you are meant to feel this pain."
It breaks my heart that you experienced that - but it certainly doesn't surprise me. Sending warmth and support your way. And yes, that's exactly what I've been thinking about recently, too. In Christianity particularly, the fact that Christ suffered for us (and with us) can be an *immense* comfort when you are forced to go through suffering yourself...but it can also become an idol, an ideal of martyrdom that actually excuses the pain instead of helping to cope with it.
exactly
On top of this, in modern times, a lot of organized Christianity, particularly in America, has become increasingly tainted by affiliation with conservative politics that doesn’t technically line up with a lot of what Christian texts actually call for. Particularly, the tainting of American conservatism increasingly with Ayn Rand-ian anti-collectivist hedonism has taken the pitfalls of organized religion in this country from bad to worse. They deny the self, they deny the collective… and essentially, the need for even personal charity is minimized to the greatest degree possible, and you are left with a cult of suffering and little more. When I’m left looking at THE CATHOLICS and thinking “well, at least they’re sort of still doing *some* things right” compared to the rest of organized Christianity in America, something has clearly gone very wrong.
@@houston-coley Humans are also biologically hardwired to dwell upon suffering far more than happiness for some reason beyond us. Maybe it was back in the old days seeing someone suffering let us confront our fears of pain, loss, dying, etc., without actually experiencing them ourselves and thus remaining in a relatively safe space and triggering our self-defense mechanism, or perhaps seeing the suffering of others made them more easy prey, or who knows. Humans simply dwell more on the negatives of life as dictated by our natural instincts, and some break out of it to an extent. Others, like Christianity, seems to have made a whole martyrdom from going far too overboard with human suffering and romanticizing it.
I think you've put it into words the best way possible, of how some bad things can lead to good things. I never knew why Miguel's echoing words in the abstract chase scene made me bawl my eyes out, until you've put that message into words; Miguel's opposing aura weren't what made me shudder and cry, it was what he was saying, *"you're a mistake"* *"you're never supposed to be x"* *"everywhere you go, you don't belong"*. I've always been told that my birth was unplanned, but from that struggle, my mother's raised herself and us into a pretty well-off life. I love where we are right now, and you're words really put a neat bow in all this, that I thank you.
I love this video. It's always great to hear people challenging the "spiderman must suffer" narrative
It was hard to put into words how I felt with the credits rolled on this one.
I like how the writers approached the often confusing and difficult (in terms of creating and writing) nature of what’s considered “canon.”
Best Spider-Person was easily the little plush guy in background of the big chase. Theres just a lil Spider-Plushie chasing Miles and I love him.
This just more so convinces me that Tom, Tobey and Andrew would A HUNDRED PERCENT be team free will. There's a REASON why fate vs free will stories are SO popular-the idea that we're just figuring this sht out on our own is terrifying, so you know, I can understand why people would look to Miguel as a way of like "oh okay so there's reason why things are the way they are" BUT it's almost always the younger generation that comes in and goes "FCK. THAT." and fights for their own story to be told. It's good drama.
Marvel editorial’s response to this would be “Spider-Man’s life can be nothing but suffering, there is no positive outcome” (reference to the current state of Spider-Man - particularly Peter Parker comics) I loved this video, thanks for sharing your response
The film made me feel some incredibly nuanced emotions. Particularly because the themes which you so elegantly discussed in this video hit really close to home for me as well. I guess I'll use this comments section as a public dump for some of the thoughts I've had personally in reaction to this film. They're not necessarily fully formed so please bear with me lol.
Earlier this year, I read a little article called "The Trouble with "X" by C.S. Lewis and it's essentially re-shaped my worldview since. To summarize, the core idea of the article is that "X" (a person in your life who is the source of pain or suffering for you) will continue to be "X" and it may be futile to attempt to change "X" because their actions are completely out of your control. Basically, Lewis suggests that the reader accepts the situation. "X" will be "X". However, the conclusion of the article is that there is one person who, if you set out to make a change, can and will be guaranteed to change and that is *you*. You have 100% of the power of your behavior and your relationship to "X". AND after realizing that, the changes you make to yourself may actually, though it seemed impossible, change "X".
Though Lewis's article discussed relationships between human beings, in my life, I've extended his principals to situations as well. "X" (situationally) in the Spider-Man universe may be a super scary villain like Green Goblin, or the death of Uncle Ben, or the impending threat of dimensional collapse. And Spider-Man doesn't have control over "X". Suffering and pain exists no matter how hard he may try to fight it. However, he CAN fight it. He has 100% of the control as to how we respond to that pain/suffering.
This is precisely the battle of Spider-Man 2, and, though subverted, Across the Spider-Verse. Peter Parker cannot stop "X" but will fight for the safety of MJ. Miles Morales cannot stop "X" but will fight for the life of his father. Foolishness? Maybe. But maybe not.
Similarly "X" in our world may be something like the resurgence of racism, antisemitism, prejudice and violence against people who are different, or the impending collapse of the very earth we live on. Yes, we must accept that those things exist and are out of our control, but we must also realize that we have 100% of the power to respond to "X". Are we merely to accept that these things are out of our control or will we try to fight back.
With great power comes great responsibility, you know.
Anyway, favorite Spider-Person was easily Spider-Man India. He made me say "haha that's funny".
This video really resonated with me and you managed to hit the nail on the head of some themes and thoughts I had while watching the movie. You're the first person I've seen who mentioned Gwen breaking canon by revealing her face to her dad and inadvertantly saving him from his "fate".
I'm a pretty new Spider-Man fan, but seeing how this film deconstructs the idea of "this is how the story goes" and the idea of Spider-Man being a lone hero who "NEEDS" to suffer was so satisfying. Peter shows a great example of how stopping Spider-Man from suffering did him a world of good, he's so much happier here. The idea of "never breaking canon" does paint Miguel's Spider-Society as a bit too harsh and unempathetic to Miles, but the morals and questions was so fascinating to me.
I think I sometimes fall into the trap of thinking things need to be a certain way, and it's really interesting to hear it from your theological and film-maker background!
Also my favourite Spider-Person has to be Hobie - he knows a metaphor for capitalism when he sees one!
I think all of the Spidermen that have been through incredibly traumatizing things latch onto Miguel’s idea that it is part of the “canon” because they want to give their trauma meaning. They want to say “yes, x person died, but it helped me become the person that I am,” instead of maybe thinking that they have persevered and become a good person DESPITE their horrible experiences. the core of being a spiderperson is that they get hit and they always get up, and Miguel hyperfocused on the part where they get hit, instead of the “getting up” part. The trauma was never needed, they just needed to be a person who has the motivation to put on the mask and keep it on.
My favorite Spiderman is Spider-Punk, "It's a metaphor for capitalism" made me laugh way harder than it should have.
Beautiful video Houston. This movie is one of, if not my favorite, Spider-Man film of all time. Mostly because of how it challenges the conventions of “who can wear the mask” and “is suffering a necessary evil?”
(Mild Spoilers for ATSV)
One thing that I’ve found kinda strange, especially in conversations surrounding Spider-Man, is the notion that responsibility means someone needs to suffer. While suffering is inevitable, that shouldn’t lead people to apathy. Ideally it should inspire them into action. One of the biggest irony in the film is seeing Miles, the outsider, committed to saving lives while the other Spider-People are willing to sacrifice lives if it’s “for the greater good.” All of the Spider-People faced hardships, but these setbacks inspires one (and later, a few more) to action while encouraging others to inaction.
Also appreciate the connection to the Christian faith. I’m not personally religious myself but I can definitely sympathize with that struggle and, for what it’s worth, I think you’re walking the good path.
Love this. Such a great perspective on a powerful film. Especially resonated when you talked about using suffering as an idol or form of identity. This film has stayed with me and it will continue to. As a "born and raised" Christian, I had never thought about how the Spider-Man story reflects that lifestyle at times. What you talk about here also reminds me of the way we think about the will of God.
Some people believe there is a step by step path for their life, that they must somehow figure out and stick to. One right person to marry, one right job to take, one right place to live. They wait for signs and hope and pray they've made the right steps to stay "on the path". This can often lead to adopting the choices of others because if it was the right path for them, maybe it's the same for you. Maybe it's "safe". And thus, religious traditions and preferences become many people's "canon". This view reminds me a lot of Spider-Man. In a way, it's freeing to know that there is something perfect out there for you. One exact story to follow. But in a way, it's far more burdensome, because how will you know how to foresee the exact right decision according to the "canon" already planned?
Recently been reminded that if we follow God's revealed will (Scripture), we can always be in accordance with his sovereign will (for the future). If we obey what he has given in his Word, we have the freedom to then make decisions however we choose. We don't have to follow someone else's choices. To be cheesy and Spider-Man-y: this mindset provides great responsibility, to follow God's law. But even greater, it provides the freedom to live to the fullest, and create a better world for yourself and others, without being worried about "breaking the canon".
Just some thoughts. Really great video, thanks so much for putting this out.
I’ve been wanting to write something substantial on this movie but I’ve had a tough time putting into words just what makes this movie so special and I think you hit the nail on the head! There’s a lot more to the movie than just this element, but I think this specific element of predetermined outcomes and suffering because you’re supposed to is one of the film’s most interesting. It also (to, like your video, tie this in with Guardians) reminds me of Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2 and how that movie is about breaking cycles and realizing that you can be better than you think you can or better than people tell you you can be. It’s certainly different there because a lot of that is with familial relationships and who parents tell you that you should be, but the idea is still present. I don’t know how to end this so I’ll just say who my favorite Spider-Person is and it’s Miles because I think he’s a really compelling character (Spider-Punk is the funniest character, though).
wild the hear you say that into the spiderverse didnt hit you emotionally, i would give anything to feel the same high i felt watching the leap of faith scene in theatres for the first time. that mix of anxiety, exhilaration, and pride has only been matched by a literal rollercoaster.
Watching this made me think of another time when Spider-Man teaming up with others lead to a breaking of cannon moment that was beautiful in No Way Home when Andrew’s Spidey saved MJ from falling to her death. It’s the most emotional moments of that film and it prevents Tom’s Spidey from losing a love one and at the same time brings some catharsis to Andrew’s Spider-Man for his previous failure.
"The hands that guide the hands" -oof that line haunted me! Was not expecting God to show up in a summer blockbuster of all places!!!
Great video man. Really interesting hearing your perspective coming as someone who's no longer religious. But yeah for my Mom who's very Christian, it feels like a lot of time she's able to justify the bad things that happen to her by saying it's part of God's Plan. On the one hand, being able to say that does give her the strength to move forward, but at the same time it is kind of toxic thinking that all these bad things HAVE to happen to me for some cosmic reason. I think Mayday ends up being a beautiful metaphor for the whole movie because she's basically Miles little sister. She wasn't supposed to exist either, but because Miles saved Peter's life both physically and spiritually in the first movie, it gave Peter B a second chance. How often does Peter get to settle down and have a family in the multiverse?
Thank you so much for this video. I love hearing your thoughts on this. And yeah, I don’t understand that so many people are upset that it’s a part one, like we didn’t resolve anything? Miles and Gwen finished their emotional arcs essentially and they now know where they stand.
But yeah, this was great! And I relate to feeling like my life is a story and also the God aspects of that, so I don’t know if that’s because I’m a Jesus follower or a writer or both because most of my friends don’t see it in the same way. It’s probably a writer thing.
this is one of the best videos I've seen on this topic so I'll leave it here: I think a universe collapses not when a cannon event is being changed because that would be a plot hole, but when you're literally trying to live someone else's live. That's what Miguel did, that's what Kingpin was going for in the first movie and then had blonde Pete tell him: "I know what you're trying to do. And it won't work", which kind of leads me to the idea that this Peter knew about the Spiderverse and probably knew Miguel which would be another motive for Miguel to hate on Miles for causing the death of a friend. Also Miles - when he tryied to be just like OG Spiderman it didn't work out. And the messege probably is to be yourself, do it your way, don't compare, leave your own and unique mark. The breaking of the idea of sacrifice is something new to this jenre and I'm absolutely here for it. And I'm too figuring out what to do with it as until now I've always felt like my story's kinda been written and I must somehow fit in it.
i also apologise if it has been said elsewhere, i just haven't seen it
Incredible video. I feel like there won’t be anyone that ever makes a video about this specific topic again, so I’m really glad you made this
As a Christian, this video is making me feel all sorts of things. This is SUCH an interesting viewpoint and I love it so much. I do often tend to think I’m failing because I’m allowing myself to enjoy things I love. And there’s definitely a way that I let those things become an idol. But you saying that *that feeling of failure* or not allowing yourself to be happy can become an idol was kind of a wake-up call. It’s a hard balance to find.
You’ve earned yourself a new subscriber. This Christian insight is so amazing. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
I’ve come back to this video a few times, It’s really incredible, thought-provoking stuff. I really like your conversational videos. I actually feel like the most profound moments come in the middle of a ramble or a tangent. Something like the Guardians 3 “hands that guide the hands” tangent might not have made it into one of your more scripted videos for the sake of time, but I’m so glad it’s there.
The moment I think about most is when you talk about how Peter in Spider-Verse falls into his post-breakup trap of misery either because he feels like he deserves it or because it’s just the way his life is supposed to be. It’s a trap I definitely fall into at times, so it’s a great reminder that it is sometimes necessary to push back against the script we unknowingly set for ourselves. Also a great reminder to trust in the “hands that guide the hands” even when life doesn’t work out in the way you planned.
It's wild to see a UA-cam video with no jump cuts yet still be cohesive and entertaining.
I think the first movie also hinted at this with the Peter on Miles’ earth. This was a Peter who was open with the ones around him, didn’t allow himself to be isolated and ultimately led a greater life than his other counterparts. In contrast to Peter B who was the opposite
This actually made me cry... This is such a wholeheartedly vulnerable reflection on the movie honey! I relate to every thing you say. Proud of you!
Im usually a massive movie fan, and love going in depth, but there is SO much depth in the spider-verse films that I'm scared of taking a deep dive, and I am simply glad to sit back and watch the masterpieces of animation, voice acting, story telling and soundtrack
I love how comically deep this whole video is and it came from a superhero movie about a person in spandex
I've never been much of a superhero junkie (or ever really engaged much with Spider-Man as a franchise) but as a fan of animation, the Spider-Verse films have launched themselves extraordinarily high on my top tier lists - not only beautifully crafted visually but the writers seem to have just as much care in the storytelling as the animators.
I really appreciate the way you've boiled down your thoughts so succinctly - I totally understand your thoughts around religion when it comes to the 'canon of suffering' but what you were saying actually made me think of a broader sense of societal "canon of suffering" and that there is still such a friction between conceived notions of how things must be in order to develop correctly versus proposed or experimented ideas of what could be improved on. The classic example I'm thinking of this that joke everyone tells of the older generation saying "ugh the youth have it so easy when I was young I had to hike fifty miles just to get to school", as if the way things have improved are somehow negative because it hasn't perpetuated the perceived "canon of suffering" everyone must go through.
And perhaps what I'm thinking of tends to fall more easily into the friction between generations. For example, when you look at criticisms of GenZ (millenial here) for being "too lazy" I feel like that yeah maybe some of that is just simply that most of GenZ are teenagers still figuring things out but also I see a generation that refuses to overwork themselves just because "that's the way it's always been". And for some reason they catch a lot of flack for either actively choosing to want better for themselves or for having been provided better circumstances than their previous generations when neither of those things are necessarily bad.
Meanwhile millenials are out here being the Spot - passively accepting that their world's gone down the drain and embracing the amplified damage they can inflict as a form of revenge on their way out lmao (this is a joke (mostly))
Just started watching the vid, I actually watched your video on the previous film before going into Across on opening night, and was looking forward to your opinion on this film, and as a fellow religious man, hearing your takes echo how I felt, now, I'm going to be shipping out to Marine Corps boot camp on Monday, and this was my most anticipated film of the year and I wanted to watch it before I left, and the way everything fell together in the film just made me reflect more than I already have, with growing up and defying norms, I don't know how to explain, but it's awesome, and your video is great btw
What a beautiful critique of a great movie. I also thought it felt like a complete and satisfying story because of the characters' growth and challenges and interactions throughout the movie. After watching this, I'll have to look out for areas in my own life where these themes apply. I know there are some areas where I am very comfortable going off script and others where I am afraid to do so because the results could be messy or could redefine me in a way I don't feel ready for.
this is a good interpretation, I was struggling to find the bigger thesis to this film after watching it twice, and you succinctly pointed it out what i couldnt describe, but i could feel in the movie
Excellent video! You're have such a natural, personal flow to your voice and commentary!
The message of this video really did hit me
I am 16 years and i am deciding what i want to study and all of that, i have been thinking of my future and who i want to be resently and the feeling about it is ambiguous
Like somethimes i am like "Yea! I want to be a biologic and then i will study vet" like really sure but other times i am like "is it really what i want to do?" Like the big questions "Who i want to be??"
I am a chiristian myself so i am questioning anxiously "Is this what God what?" "What if this isn't what he wants?" "This is the carrer he wants me to study? I really like this one but what if? What if this is not his plan? What if i am choosing wrong?? What will i do if this is a mistake??" And i get really anxius somethimes thinking about future and Gods plans but i didn't even ask him about it
I want to fullfil his plan but i don't even know what his plan is... Like this video reminded me that his thoughs and plans are so superior compared to mine
How can i fullfil his plan by my own if i can't even get to undestand it?
I think he can use me(in a good way) wherever career i choose to study, wherever "my plan" "my script" "my cannon" is, its not even compared with Gods plan with his "cannon" for my life
I kinda feel a lot less lost
Thank you so much
I love this video, watched the movie just yesterday and it really felt personal but couldn't understand why. I have felt all of what you mentioned, thanks for sharing!
Me:gets a girlfriend*
Spiderman 2099: This wasn't suppose to happen
I simply love what complexities the film applied to Spider-Man as a character when looking at things in all the mentioned perspectives. How it confronts "what defines our destiny" is something that just hit like a truck to me and how it helps evolve Miles as a character further sets him apart from not only all the other Spider characters but even his other previous adaptations. Across the Spider-Verse is one of those rare films where it tops the masterpiece of it's predecessor with such high consistency and how the climax parallels the start of the movie alongside the first one just amazes me and I'm still trying to process everything after 2 watches of the movie.
Loved the video! Keep up the great work.
"ive seen it 2 times now" SAME and im seeing it again for a 4th time tomorrow 😭
Beautifully articulated man
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, there are a lot of really really deep things to think about with this story.
This was a really interesting video. I just saw the movie yesterday and the ideas of the necessity of suffering and what's supposed to be (he wasn't even "supposed to be" spider man) really stayed with me. I'm really interested to see if his dad survives the next movie. If he doesn't it will both prove Miguel right and wrong. Myles' suffering is meant to be but that would also mean that Myles is supposed to be Spiderman
So if Spider-Man always loses his uncle Ben and then "the Captain," who was the captain that Sam Raimi's Spider-Man lost? Perhaps it was Norman Osborne. After all, he was a captain of industry.
I felt similarly after watching the film. I think it's a near perfect movie. I'm still pondering on the themes, predestination being one of them. In many ways I think Miles represents youthful hope. He has yet to be bogged down by the weight of pragmatism like the other Spider-men/women have. In that sense, he is an "anomaly". Miles won't kill that inner child that his mother told him to protect, that creative energy that sees a multitude of possibilities. In stark contrast, Miguel is solemn, stoic, and pragmatic. He's been forever changed by trauma and can see only one way. He doesn't even have a sense of humor like Perter Parker pointed out. Lol Miles embodies the concept of free will, the ability to choose one's own destiny and to laugh in the face of fate.
Hey Houston, this is the first video that I've ever been recommended from you and I just wanted to express my thanks for it. I'm also Christian, I just saw this movie Wednesday, and I just broke up with my girlfriend today. She unfortunately had this mindset of suffering where she didn't need anybody else, just Jesus for the tough times. As much as I may agree that Jesus fully provides for us, He also exists with the Father and the Holy Spirit. I really appreciate your thoughts about inviting people into our suffering and how despite the fact that it can look ugly at times, beautiful things can also occur out of them
Every character in this movie is just perfect. Miles and Gwen are developed further in a way that makes me like them even more than before. Pavitr and Hobie stole the show whenever they were on screen. Peter B. Parker becoming a father is so refreshing and something I wish mainstream Spidey comics would allow. And of course Miguel is super imposing but has an understandable motivation that allows for these discussions.
Genuinely, one of the best video I’ve ever watched
For me this movie also resonated with that feeling of uncertainty i have about the concept of growing up and the fact that i am and will become my own person, the uncertainty that i am (and everyone is) , in a way, alone, stuck in their own perceptions of every situation. I find this movie depicts this idea really well, where Miles is also going through that stage where he now still lives with his parents and has that support, but that will need to end, and Miles will need to learn how to live emotionally on his own. That's why I love this movie so much. It really approaches many difficult life problems and ideas relating to this idea of what it means to follow a script or not stick to it.
Spider-man and his mythos has never been about suffering to me.
Sure, suffering is a part of it, but I always saw Spider-man's identity as a person who doesn't know everything, but tries to make the right and responsible choice despite the hardship and suffering. That's what makes the character so great. And it's insane that if you think enough about it, ALL the spider-men in this movie are trying to do exactly that. It's what makes the movie so compelling to me.
Just like in our own lives, it's hard to tell sometimes what's the right or wrong answer. In those times, we just have to pick an answer, follow through with it, and let what happens happen. I think imo, this movie has really hit that home for me.
Great video! I also plan on making a similar video examining the themes and philosophies of Across the Spider-Verse. As a Christian myself, I can relate to a lot of what you said in this video seeing my life and the universe as part of God's story. This lens affects how I view Spider-Man as a character. Ever since I was a kid, Spider-Man has been my hero and role model. To me, a lot of what he stands for aligns with my faith.
I love how ATSV dives deeper into what defines Spider-Man and asks how far can we stretch this definition. I think suffering is an integral part of the hero and without it Spider-Man becomes shallow. That's why many people have complained about Tom Holland's movies because his version of Spidey got everything he wanted. They were able to resolve this issue by giving him the traditional Spider-Man story in No Way Home. But like what you said, Spidey can make this suffering an idol. Using suffering as a self-defense mechanism to protect himself from experiencing an important part of life, joy. So, I like how Miles challenges the narrative of Spider-Man, but I also hope in the sequel they don't just conclude that Miguel is wrong. You brought up an interesting point about how through teamwork, the Spider-Men were able to save Inspector Singh, but if you recall in the movie, Mumbattan is now at the threat of dimensional collapse due to this deviation from the canon.
Long talk long, I think it would diminish Miles' and Spider-Man's character, if Miles can have his cake and eat it too. I would like both Miles and Miguel to be right, but also wrong. And I'm excited to see how the sequel will try to resolve these things.
I really appreciate this take, I love that perspective.
That’s deep
This is such an interesting perspective, and analysis. I'm definitely similar in view life through the lens of story and narrative. Feeling like you have to follow some kind of narrative arc, is especially difficult when the arc you identify with most is the doomed tragic loner hero . . It makes it a lot easier to accept the hardships and failures, and when things don't go wrong, when maybe there should be rage against the machine, and breaking the script. Really appreciate the thoughts. This video got my sub.
This is by far the most insightful video i have seen on Across the Spider-verse. Great video as always man! Your videos are always such a delight 🙂
I definitely feel like I resonated with your take on how life can feel like a story playing out by a higher power. I've mulled over that a lot in the past, and I've always connected with Spider-Man as a character and his stories. I really appreciate the connection this movie and series seems to be making about the deterministic nature of Spider-Man's story and how we can sometimes be misled by the idea of what "should" happen to us. Great video!!
My fav new character is Spider-Punk, Hobie is just the coolest guy and his attitude towards the status quo is quite pivotal to the overall themes of Across the Spider-Verse. I'm sooo excited for Beyond, but I hope they have enough time in the studio to make sure everything works out just as they intend.
I loved your ideas on this video, very sincere. This video was very different from the generic “video essay”, reminds me of old UA-cam. I too like to discuss about philosophy/religion when it comes to entertainment, glad to know someone else is on the same wavelength.
Hobey ftw
Sometimes to do what's right we have to be steady and give up the thing we want the most....even our dreams
Peter Parker,
With what you said, it's interesting, maybe sometimes we don't have to follow the script since sometimes beautiful things happen when you don't follow the script
Favourite Spider is Miguel!
RAMATTRA: SUFFER AS I HAVE.
obviously in love with Hobie! all the spider people are great!
I feel a real sense of kindred spirit with this video... a lot of your thoughts sound very much like my thoughts, except without religion/christianity, if that makes sense. This movie struck me too, and I resonated with a lot of philosophical ponderous thoughts about it, and the nature of identity and being one's real self.
I wonder how the apparent "collapse" of universes in which something is amiss (such as the one wherein Miguel attempted to live a normal life) will be addressed, if at all.
If the Spider-Verse trilogy is attempting to send the message that suffering is not always fated, how will it reconcile the consequences that it's established for those who try to break with fate? There must be something we do not yet understand about Canon and its relationship to the stability of the Multiverse
I so love how Miguel O’Hare is basically just a parody of all those internet losers that take canon WAY TOO seriously! Like, just such a great in-joke.
He's more of a representation of Marvel itself, as seen in the latest Spiderman comics. They want Spiderman to be about suffering instead of moving past suffering and growing from it.
He's not a parody. He's got legit reasons to believe how he believes. Trying to have his cake and eat it, killed a reality in his eyes. Through his exploration of the multiverse, he discovered patterns that resemble what he did and caused the same result.
However, he's allowed himself to become defined by it and is miserable. Tho, Miles isn't right either; you can't always avoid pain and failure. There's going to be a middle ground here.
I loved this movie it gave me everything I ever wanted and seeing my girl mayday Parker spidergirl finally adapted in animation makes me so happy that I am super excited to see more of her in the future also yay seeing Miles Morales Spider-Man and spidergwen become a couple in the future is really awesome that I cannot wait for beyond the spiderverse it’s going to be amazing at least in my opinion, also another bonus seeing miles morales Spider-Man prove everyone they are wrong is really awesome and of course another thing i love about this movie is that i got to see peter parker and mary jane have there daughter mayday parker spider-girl and having her help her dad made me so happy that i cannot wait to see her and spider-Gwen try to save Miles Morales is going to be really awesome and badass in my opinion.
oh boy ive been waiting for you to talk about this
CW's Supernatural wrestles with free will and destiny that I think you'd enjoy looking into
oh my God....I have similar thought about the film and I'm glad I stumble across your video....
Great discussion here, can't wait for Spider-Verse 3!!!
Loved hearing your thoughts. Great video!
Indian Spider-Man was very original
I'm sorry for asking this but in what sense
How so? He's a character from the comics, the only major thing they changed was his suit
Great thoughts on this. I really resonated with what you were saying and you were able to draw out ideas I was still wrestling with articulating.
I said this on your last video, and this video confirmed it: I think you'd make a great guest on the Popcorn Theology podcast.
If all of that was off the top of the dome I'm insanely impressed, because that was beautifully put. Thank you for going there with your faith background. Mine is similar, and as grateful as I am for many parts of it, I'm also becoming more aware of the many unhealthy patterns it's helped shape in my life. I'm trying to unlearn a lifetime of believing I need to minimize myself and put others first. This is partially right, but Jesus said "Love your neighbor AS YOURSELF." My experience with the American church did not teach me to love myself.
Ironically, the more I've minimized myself, the more egotistical, insecure, and toxic I've become - just hidden behind a practiced veneer of self-sacrifice. What I've been learning lately though is that actually putting myself first, including when that puts me into something messy with someone else, has given me the space to genuinely care for others better. Just as The Spot said, "my holes aren't a curse!" Leaving the holes empty is the curse (that was a stretch, ik).
I rarely comment on UA-cam, especially comments of this nature, but it was too crazy to me how this video correlated to what's been going on in my life recently. Now I get to wonder what role this amazing movie played in that, and have one more reason to love it. Thanks Houston!
The return of the king
Great analysis!
To me I take this view: “yes you can’t have the good without the bad but there is whole lot of more bad we’d be better without because it’s simply meaningless suffering” unfortunately a lot of people throughout history have tried justifying this notion of suffering always being necessary especially some religious apologists.
This was really interesting. It's a very well made video.
Also Pavitr Prabhakar is my favourite Spider-person.
Hobie's a close second and Gwen is third. It's hard to pick any of them though 'cos they're all so cool.
amazing video! you just won a subscriber :D
This was very well said Coley. I too am someone from a religious background. And a lot of the time I reflect what I see in entertainment in art with my relationship with god. Happens even without trying. Also congrats on getting g married! I must’ve missed it somewhere, but congratulations man!
I resonate with this. I need this. God bless you and your wife.
Interesting video. Unlike your "Into the spider-verse" video where you spent most of the time praising the film's visual art, this time you focused on the philosophical themes of "Across the spider-verse ". Awesome job.
You have no IDEA how nice it is to hear a Christian point of view on something I love so much! It’s so rare to hear God even mentioned and it’s super refreshing, (especially when it’s done in such a positive, thoughtful way).
I remember being so shocked and touched when Lila said to rocket: “There are the hands that made us, and then there are the hands that guide the hands.”
Thanks for bringing your perspective on this amazing movie!
i thought the directions they went with the plot was great as it has very few major plot holes like why the spider verse was necessary for all other spiderman to break their own canon by traveling dimensions and miles curiosity falling victim to seeing his canon event revealed like him witnessing an apocalyptic revelation only works if the spider verse is involved
As a Christian id love to see your take on a movie like the holy mountain by alejandro jodorowsky
Houston, this was beautiful. I've been wrestling with these questions lately in my life as a Christian as well and God really spoke to me through this. The idea that our desires are placed in us for a reason, that we can't really expect to figure out "the perfect script" for our lives in the moment, that leaning into messiness can lead to beautiful things, that maybe we don't always have to accept suffering... I'll be thinking about these for a while. Very moving. Moved me to tears actually (in a good way). Thanks for being so open and sharing your thoughts. God bless you man.
I’m so moved to hear this, Issy. 💙💙
Christian to Christian, I think there's a lot of great ruminating in this video.
I think one thing we in the west sometimes forget is that life is a communal activity. And suffering is meant to be borne together for all our sanity. We don't live in a perfect world, but beauty is found in the shared experience of care. Nobody would wish it, but we have it and thus we can serve and love through it. After all, that's what Jesus came down for. A God here with us in all the pain. Not a perfect solution, but a savior to come alongside and begin the long road to victory.
Great video. 👍
Reading people's comments have given me more perspective on the theme. Initially, it felt off-putting because I was thinking "Why are we rehashing essentially the same theme again? If your fanbase had a problem with changing cannon, then we wouldn't have come out in throngs to support the second movie." However, I'm still a little torn. On one hand I'm all for using what came before to foster creativity, but I'm more in support of making new stories that aren't reimaginings/adaptions/retellings. True nothing exists in a vacuum & everything has been influenced by what came before. However, if you're committed to using the IP name/identity (in this case, Spiderman/persons) at what point do you realize that it's maybe a crutch instead of an asset? Depending on how much you're changing, wouldn't it make more sense at that point to completely sever from the old and make something new; not relying on the established IP at all? This is coming from someone that thoroughly enjoyed the first one & works in the animation industry. I also understand that the industry is in "retelling" phase and that there are economics behind why studios do more adaptations than original content. Lastly, I have no problem with Miles saving his dad/him and Gwen being together. I'm just not sold on how they approached the criticism of cannon itself. Overreliance on it can be unhealthy, I just think this take will hinder artists from pursuing non-IP related ideas. Just my two cents, I'm analyzing this from the perspective of a producer/content creator who would love to see more stories from different people.
It was great hearing your perspective on this movie. It's always fun when art can profoundly affect one's life. Can't wait for the next one.
The way I view it is that if God is real, they have to deal with the fact that we have free will. If God isn't real then we have free will anyway. I don't care whether you follow a plan or embrace chaos just respect both. I've had people tell me what I'm supposed to do in God's plan in mental hospital and it leaves me constantly questioning reality and as someone with an atheist background it was weird going through a religious phase. I honestly think I'm agnostic and lean more into the side of organised chaos but narratives keep popping into my head of what I'm supposed to do and it can be quite suffocating which is why this film really resonated with me. It's just philosophically deep enough without annoying people and I like that.
I used to be a Christian so I’m very familiar with the idea that we’re here to suffer and sacrifice for the sake of others. The ultimate sacrifice being the death of Christ on a cross. This created a paradigm of victimization, of martyrdom and of giving everything up for the by-and-by of a better, future life after death. Nowadays, I’m all about Law of Attraction as spoken about by Abraham Hicks. We’re here for the FUN of it, not to suffer. Whatever we focus on, grows. Beliefs are just thoughts repeated over and over. My life works so much better now and I see the trope of suffering as a means of justifying a good life as being completely unnecessary. There’s no price to pay, except for feeling good. Good feelings are what steers me toward living out my desires.
That’s an interesting perspective. Do you think there are times putting your own desires aside for the good of someone else is more important than having fun?
Interesting perspective!
7:06 - 8:28 yeahhhhh seriously!!!
thought it was a little ironic how for a movie that challenges “the canon of suffering” it exploits its animators therefore continuing the trope of artists having to struggle for their art lmao. kinda sad
I’ve been thinking about this exact thing too!