200 HOUR Burn-in test!
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- Опубліковано 19 жов 2018
- Does burn in make a difference?
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#DMS #headphones #burn-in - Наука та технологія
![If you can't hear this then you're not an audiophile [See description for link to followup video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/48PxwspDvrE/mqdefault.jpg)
This is the most reasonable conclusion I've ever heard regarding burn-in.
So, any change in hifiman products?
burn in for me is to iron out the harshness of the sound, usually treble and sometimes the tightness of bass.... burn in won't change the sound signature but mostly timbre, stage and smoothness..
Very useful and informative post, thanks for doing this.
Great vid. What about burn in for devices such as DAP's or amps? Ibasso recommends a 200 hour burn in for it's latest DAP, the DX120. Do you think this is necessary?
That change in treble looks quite significant. Interesting video, thanks.
Questions:
1. Are the measurements you show done using the same headphone pads or are they the same headphone measured with 2 sets of pads measured new and burned in?
2. Did you move the headphone between the two measurements?
3. Ideally you should have not moved the headphones between 0 and 200 hours using the same pads.. Otherwise small positional differences between measurements could account for the small differences we see, particularly above 1 kHz. Also, measuring the same pad before and after burn-in the the best way to minimize the nuisance variable of tolerances between two sets of pads
We have also done burn-in on a similar headphone and found no significant measurement differences- objective or subjective... I think burn-in is largely a ploy to get humans to adapt to the sound so they don't return it. It's largely a cognitive / psychological bias where doing something raises expectation in sound improvement. Otherwise, why does break-in always seem to improve the sound rather than make it worse?
@DMS Sean Olive commented on your video and you didn't even respond?
It's a bit philosophical
question but :) Can we really be sure burn in is hoax or not ? Does measurements (even the most perfect one) can show whole picture ?
Personally i also believe it's mostly adaptation. People generaly get hyped for a new headphone and get disappointed because of the expectation. After some adaptation they start appreciate the new headphone.
i would like a blind test of a headphone you know well, and have used well. Then get a brand new one and use your worn-in earpads. Then do a blind test. *Even better is to do this to someone else, without even telling them anything about the pads, or even mentioning "burn-in" and maybe even tell them the headphones are different (e.g., have them close their eyes and say one is the Arya, the other is the HE1000 v2, but they are actually both the HE1000se, for example).* ofc, also do measurements (multiple, taking them on/off 5 times each) with the worn pads.
Now, as for burn-in and psychological bias, i do have something to say against it. first, i got my meze 99 noir and wanted to return them because they were so bad that my edifier earbuds ($20-30) that i use at work were better. but now the sound has improved on me. i constantly listen to my desktop speakers and other headphones/earphones more than my Meze, but i listen to the Meze like 1-3 times a week. now, here's the thing regarding psychology:
-if it does sound just as bad as at first, then why am i now preferring the sound of the Meze over my other ones despite listening to other devices more?
-I am listening to my other devices more than the Meze per week, yet i no longer want to trash my Meze. Ofc, i can still see psychology coming into play, but that's only as a possibility.
There is also the point regarding how the human brain works that works to the disadvantage of burn-in, mentioned by Resolve Reviews/The Headphone Show. There, he says that when your brain/hearing adapts to the headphone, it doesn't sound as amazing as when you first heard it, so you should have at least 2 different types of headphones to change between. This point uses psychology/hearing with listening duration against the headphone rather than for it.
So, psychology/the brain/hearing/perception seems to have arguments both ways (for/against the sound). therefore, i still cannot rule out that burn-in works.
Note that Meze also said you need at least 40 hours of burn in, on and off.
in this regard, we need to do better (more valid) experiments by improving off of the older experiments, because even after the older experiment and theories, i still cannot say the experiments were perfect enough to be conclusive, especially when the experiment relies on a psychological theory to rationalize it, yet there are psychological theories that say the opposite as well. and from my experience of listening to them less, and multiple other devices more, psychological or not, i found the Meze to have improved a lot. the only problem is that i didn't have the intention to test burn-in, so i cannot say it is not psychological for certain.
You mentioned in point 3 that the same pad should be used for before and after the burn-in. However, the pads might break in and become more malleable, changing the sound. This cannot really be remedied, as you mentioned, two sets of pads might have different sonic characteristics.
1: same pads. The headphone was unused between the measurements so the pads wouldn’t wear in at all.
2: I did a good number of measurements to get a consistent result each time based off several positions (down to 1/2mm positioning) each time,
3: I placed them in a box during the burn-in so the pads wouldn’t wear down. 200 hours of pad compression on a dummy head would certainly alter results.
4: I used this specific headphone because these biodynas surrounds seem to wear down significantly over time so it’s seems to be a perfect candidate, however I don’t think burn in is always an improvement. However it seems logical that any mechanical motion will cause wear over time.
Quick question, what sound / file did you play to burn in the headphones?
Have you listened to the AQ night owls? What do you think of them? What would you recommend over them in a closed back headphone?
Can you tell us a little about how you actually did the 200 hour burn in? Did you use a particular programme/app?
Great video!
Bro, which files did you use to burn in those headphones?
Can you please share the link?
My Akg k361 pre burn sounded like a pair of airplane earbuds after 3 day's of contentious burn in strated sounded really good
How big were the differences between thos 20 individual measurements and how do they compare to the pre/post burnin differences?
Was waiting for this video...
I've experienced this first hand with 3 pairs of 598's that had varying levels of burn in. ~40 hours vs ~250 hours was no different, but a couple hours vs ~40 had tiny differences. Blind test, all headphones adjusted the same, randomized - and could pick the new headphone each time I came around to it. Once the new pair was burned in, they were the same as the other two.
Different driver designs likely make a difference in how much burn in is "needed".
To make this clear - burn in does not change the headphone any more than a tiny amount. Some headphones may not change with burn in. Honestly, I don't fret over this and tell people to just enjoy the damn headphones.
Yes it does more than a tiny amount: look at that change in the treble again. I got the same with the Superlux HD-668B: the treble smoothed out from a single unbearable ear-stabbing peak to a listenable bright plateau, plus the sub-bass "filled in" and became satisfying where it was unnoticeable before. (I'm a bit surprised that his Nighthawks showed a loss of bass instead of a gain TBH. I don't think I've seen it go that way anywhere else, either with headphones or subwoofers - it's always more sub-bass from a loosened-up surround, not less sub-bass.)
598 gets from zero bass to strong bass ( almost the same as Plantronics BackBeat Pro 2 ) after around 1month of use ( not sure how much hours of burn in it would be ).
When i got them they had slight bass, but in comparison none in general, i've started to bass boost it with EQ at around mby +10dB and with time i slowly was reducing the EQ bass boost till i've completely disabled the EQ because in stock they were already pretty bassy and punchy not like out of the box.
I have KZ ZS6 and I use them like 6-8 months. When I got them they are so harshy that could pierce and damage your ears. I burned them about 8 hours and their harshness dropped significant. And one week ago I burned them again and their harshness dropped significant again! I ll burn them again when I come back to home. I m using pink sound btw. IMO pink noise reduce harshness. If your cans have sibilance and too much bright sound you should try it!
Hey may I know what mic do you use?
in the olden days when a person would rap the voice coil they used a thin coat of wax to hold the wire as it was being coiled for speaker drivers.... so once the speaker driver was completely built then the driver needed to be burnt in by simply letting the speaker play either music or a frequency sweep.... this " burn in " allowed the wax/wire to align and actually a small amount of lubricant via the wax..... and of course as the speaker was being burnt in then the frequency response changed do to the mechanics aligning themselves.... thats driver burnin... not even mentioning the break in of the cone materials also become more compliant .... it matters... some people can't hear so they say it doesn't exist.. but it does...
I noticed with my SHP9500 after some months a little boost in the low end and some peaky treble frequencies weren't so aggresive anymore
I believe my Beyers (770/250, 990/600, 1990/250) sound a fair bit smoother or more musical after using them for a while. Out of the box they can sound pretty sterile and engaging, something that puts many people off, definitely if you're treble sensitive.
Their qualities are apparent from the get-go, but they take some time to really shine. I break them in by just listening to them instead of running noise or music on a loop. That way you can get to know what the headphones are capable of and if and how they change. Maybe more important is how your personal hearing, perception and preferences change with them.
Your beyer improve in technicalities?
Also if the frequency response changes even using a constant pink noise, the impulse response and transients may even change more with looser drivers so cans that are more detail oriented that are not pre burned in at the factory may even benefit with burn in more than these craphawks lol
I absolutely loved my ATH R70x, but I noticed that, after a month of frequent listening, I found that certain pieces sounded different... they had gotten even more enjoyable. Maybe I got used to them. Maybe there was noticeable burn in.
I remember when Z did his big break-in thing. After 16 hours I couldn't hear a difference any longer. That's become my standard. Just long enough to satisfy my OCD, and short enough to not make me look loony.
well done!!
I bought my 1st pair of headphones recently and saw this Smart Burn-in function when I started to play around with the App, but then forgot about it. Now, a month later, I decided to do it: I started the Smart Burn-in but it says that it will take 12hrs to complete phase 1! So it seems I'll have to do several sessions of 12hrs each! That's just crazy!!!
I buy cheap wireless headphones for when i run because i want them to be light as possible. this is a specific case where the cheap membranes really do make notable improvements as new wireless headphones under $100 often sound tinsel-y
This is a legendary video so many flame wars suddenly silenced on headfi threads :P great job!
The differences in measurements are pretty big actually. How do you measure headphones? Coz as you know, every minor difference in technique of measuring headphones makes a big difference, mainly in treble.
I´m asking coz I´m not getting consistens results above say 5kHz on my ghetto measurement rig..
To eliminate variables as much as possible each re-position was recorded on a grid to ensure exact placement. Doing this 15 times per side then averaging results proved consistent within 0.4db for 3 consecutive sets of 30 runs (90 runs total with 6 averages). So i proceeded with those measurements as my benchmark and repeated the same re-positions marked on a grid at the end of the test and repeated 3 more sets of 30 runs to ensure consistency.
DMS Ouch...
The Knight Owl Burn In is night and day, best closed cans I’ve ever heard under $1000
Never heard of them...are they a modded version of the nightowl ?
They are a closed back version of the night hawks, not modded just closed back
@@oneeyeop-en6720 my comment below ⬇️
So the kinghtowl are very much nightowls (closed nighthawks)? How are they different?
Well, on some headphones burn in makes enough of a difference to make it worthwhile. Others not so much. The headphone I saw the biggest changes with is my Audio Technica MSR7. The treble and high mids on these things were murderous at first. Shouty, peaky and harsh. They were hard to love. That was with them having fewer than 20 hours of use (I got them used, but the guy had barely used them for testing, so they were practically new, they were used like 10 hours max). I got to use them very little in the first few days, because I had to leave my house for a long weekend. So I left them there playing for 3 days straight. On the 4th day, I tried again. I didn't believe much in burn in until that point, but all the harshness was gone. It was pretty noticeable. A sibilance causing 8k peak was gone (no more harsh SSSS sounds) and the treble became smooth enough that I could appreciate all the detail these cans can produce, which is a lot. After that and modding them by removing a felt ring inside them and using HM5 sheepskin pads, they became my favorite closed back can below 500$. It's not even funny, they are so good. M50x are laughable compared to them.
She here, thigh my experience in ear-rape highs were with basshead inclined headphones, V-Moda M-100s, left them on my iPod for 5 days straight. Glad I did, instead of returning them after the 3rd day of fatigue. Best portables I can recommend.
Glad to see another msr7 owner, they we're definitely a little sharp in the beginning but after some modding with dekoni elite sheepskin m50x pad these are my standard
@@classicdom Hey there brother! Yes, the MSR7 has so much potential, it's great. I never understood why it didn't become more popular. I guess it's its harsh default state. Even some burn in makes them great, let alone slight nodding. If you're comfortable messing around with them, try the mod below. It's easy and reversible, and to me it took the MSR7 from a 7 (duh) to a 9. Bass for days (same high quality as stock bass though) and calmed highs. Dunno how it will behave with your pads, but I'm curious what the results will be if you try!
www.head-fi.org/threads/the-mod-collective-bring-all-your-full-sized-headphone-mods-here.867426/page-13#post-14446717
@@959tolis626 Looks interesting I actually have hm5 pads as well, it's just that my other pads keep the sound closer to stock, which I prefer. If I get bored or want to change it up I'll attempt the mod in the future. Cheers
Help ! I used burning audios for my Nokia headphone and when i listen to the beginning of music like "Dear Future husband" by Megan Trainor and "Because of You" by Ne-Yo, I can hear distortion of sound but only in the beginning of those songs. Is this normal or my headphones are already broken? 😢
thanks for an amazing video.how do you know that the break in is done? my guess is to measure every 50 hours and see if it starts changing slower or doesn't change after a certain point.so maybe it's not over...if you could tell us by hours when was the most dramatic change? maybe it takes 300 hours in your conditions? maybe the first 100 made the most important change and after that people should not bother.does planar drivers react the same or require more time? .
best video ever!
How much of this is due to the earpads being used more during the burn in period vs, say fresh pads? quite interresting and informative video but I'm also left a bit more curious as to possible other factors that can contribute to the sound change.
I was thinking the same thing. I just upgraded from HD555s to HD650s after using the 555s for 12 years and the 650 sounds worse across the board. However, switching between the two there's an obvious difference in pad stiffness resulting in the drivers being closer to my ear and making a better seal on my head. I remember replacing my earpads about 4 years ago on the 555s and the sound quality being worse immediately but returning over a period of a week or so. I kept the old pads for comparison and theyre super easy to swap back and forth so I could confirm it wasn't just my brain getting used to the difference. Perhaps a firmer foamed headphone will "burn in" better than a softer foamed one due to this. I wish I had test equipment for all of this.
Vocabulary question. What does "bass bleeds into the mids" mean? Is there a way to notice it on mdr 7506 or m50x? Those are my bass heavy cans, but never grasped the idea of "bleeding".
vicfendan think of it as more of “bass covers up the mids”. Primarily a result of accentuated bass with extended impulse/decay. The resonating bass sort of overwhelms your ability to hear the mids (especially lower mids) and masks detail in that area.
If it wasn’t so time intensive, I’d say this kind of before/after comparison should be standard in reviews.
You didn't say HOW you measured...? Also confusing about the use or not of the cushion. At what level did you "burn them in"? Did you take an average of the multiple measurement you mentioned, and that is what is shown? Details matter! We also did the same burn in with the same headphones and got very small difference. Measured on a standard coupler, with NO movement of the headphones between before and after measurement.
I really enjoyed seeing this follow up - there are so many hard liners on both sides of the fence with regards to burn in that it's hard not to get a proper answer. It would be cool to see if you could acquire two units of the same headphone. You could measure both and burn in one while leaving the other as new . You could then measure again and do a blind A/B test between them. This would yield a solid objective and subjective conclusion. There may be issues with driver inconsistencies between two sets of identical headphones so choosing a set with good QC/buying them from the same retailer at the same time would probably be necessary.
everyone says burn in is not real but my sennheiser mdr-v6s even after a day of heavy bass burn in it sounded better and more airy and crisp after only a few days of ownership
Hi dms!! Big fan of yours!! I recently purchased dt 1990 pro (540 dollars here in greece :( ) but i was a bit disappointed with the sibilance in some tracks and the peakiness of the treble in many electronic music tracks. I changed from a pads to balanced pads but it didn't make the issue go completely away. So i started the burn in process on my pc. Will this fix the problem? I am currently enjoying my hd 650 more and i am afraid i threw away my money on dt 1990 pro for nothing. I only do personal listening. I am not a producer, just an audiophile. Thanks in advance
I know exactly how you feel, at the begining, right after I purchased the dt 1990 pro's, the treble was a bit too much for me. Luckily I got used to their highs (Or it was burn-in. Who knows?). Now I find them only to be harsh when playing poorly recorded tracks. So I suggest you just spend some more time with them, they really do shine with their razor sharp accuracy, if you can get past their slightly bright nature.
Maybe eq them a bit innthe sibilance range if burn in doesn't help?
Eq certainly can help and is always an option. I've experienced that the sound of the 1990's shifts slightly to the warm side, if you reduce the treble. It's up to you wherter you like that or not.
I definitely do like it warm. This shhhhh in armin van buuren - sunny days almost drove me nuts :(
I really hope it works out well for you. :)
Made a ton of posts on headfi and here regarding burn in. All of which is basically shown here. It is very minor at best for changes. Tend to smooth out bass and treble in headphones that have any measurable burn in effect. Most headphones it does even less. Anyone claiming burn in significantly affects headphones for the better is trying to sell you some snake oil.
People compare this with shoes and I think is not the same. Every feet is different. The shoe will accomodate it's shape to your foot form, with time it will be more comfortable. Maybe is that headphones accomodate themselves inside and sound better??, maybe worse?. Does balance armatures can be burned in?
Burn in is real, but not necessarily for WIRE and other electronic components. Speaker drivers and other MECHANICAL things break in. The term for surrounds becoming more flexible is “ Compliant”. I will state for the record- the better quality headphone/ speaker -the more potential difference will be noticed. Nuance requires agile and compliant drivers.
did you the test more then once and average them into one graf as to make usre that the result we are seeing is not just variation from test to test.
I did 15 runs per side and averaged them then repeated that 3 times. So 90 runs before and 90 runs after burn in.
I'm an acoustic engineer, conducted the exact same test but with NightOwl (potato/potato!) and I'm surprised by the difference that you're showing for before/after. I'm not sure what coupler or measurement setup you used to do this, but the the average difference I show is about 0.5 dB. If you moved the HP on the coupler between measurements, most of the differences, specially above 2 kHz could easily be due to shift in resonances that is pretty normal if the seat of the HP on the coupler is not identical to the original (even a couple of mm makes a difference). I can share my measurements with you and talk further about this if you want. At the end of the day, what "break-in" has an effect on is your BRAIN!
Good work!
Not every headphone needs burn in... That said, when I first got my Fostex t50rp mkll, they sounded good but not extraordinary. After 200 hours, they've really opened up, the sound it crisp and full bodied now. It's like a wine that mellows over time
Umm @DMS, could you please respond to Sean Olive's comment? I think there are a few points that should be clarified here.
I find it funny very few "audiophile" channels like the NightHawks. To me the are one of the few headphones that actually sound DIFFERENT than most of the other "audiophile" grade cans. Most of them just have nuance change between them, while NightHawks offer something different. It's just sad so many people don't "get" it. I think they are amazing! It's like you are in a room with some Elac B2's and a Subwoofer. It's also sad that sooo many people opinions are shaped by youtubers. I am betting most of the people who have hate for them on the forums got their opinion from youtube, half those people probably never heard them before. Just repeating what their favorite youtuber says.
The best cans should sound their best out of the box and not after 200 of "burning in"
Burn in is for everything the engines and suspension of a car shoes trousers everything and anything it took more than 6 months for my sennheiser HD600 for the bass to reveal its self more than 300 hours it needs 500 to 600 hundred hours to listen the magic sound of them I mean everything the amplifier the speakers the CD player the cartridge of the turntable the cables everything compare your equipment after 600 hundred hours big difference
If the headphones burn in for more than 1000 hours, will the Frequency response change? Is there anyone who can test it?
How come you don't like the Nighthawk's?
half the music is just straight up missing. So many massive dips its hard to listen to.
isnt it just bad engineering design at some point if it relies on burn in so much
No, it's just a mechanical thing. Also would be to expensive to burn in everything before putting them on shelves
The question is, why cant they do these in factory.
Will you be doing a review of the AQ Nighthawk?
It would be a waste of everyone's time. They were pretty bad. I already returned them.
That's fair! XD Thanks for the input. Like wouldn't buy them at all kind of bad? Or would only pick them up if they were a really good price?
wouldn't buy them at all. Just not worth it.
@@DMS3TV, FWIW, I'm in the process of selling mine. They're listed on our FS group. Simply don't use them very often.
Now imagine the effects of burn in on the human ear.
Can I see the graph instead of the background?! 🤷🏻♂️
I love this. For all of those persistently ignorant people who say burn-in doesn't exist or 'it's a scam for manufacturers to avoid 7-day returns" 🤣
What about burn in on DAPs my dx120 came with a burn in cable
I did this months ago with two Audioquest Nighthawk. My articles will be found at a german audiophile blog.
blog.prof-x.de/2018/03/30/2-teil-break-in-von-kopfhoerern-wissenschaft-wunder-oder-wunsch/
(if anyone is interested in corresponding measurements and maybe is able to read german) I also investigated the burn in effect of the cushions, second articles. My conclusion is that bass area is changing quite a lot die to better seal with the cushions after them getting softer and flatten about 2mm. The upper mids and highs are changing like in DMS burn in test. And yes there are many cans that will not have these effects. E.g. the FOCAL Elex seems to get pre conditioned during the manufacturing process.
Also not a fan of the Nighthawks!
Obviously a speaker needing to be burned in a real thing just ask anyone that was 20 years year old in the 60s and 70s that was in a garage band who dreamt of being rock stars but then ended making an album sounding of bon jovi. So they gave it up. Just a matter if the the person notices the difference and accepts all of it inside them..... wait that comment is for two differnet videos.
Try putting them in an 400° oven for 5 hours. They sound amazing after you let them cool off!!!
Celsius or foreignheit?
@@joepublic8582 Kevin
Joe Public Depends on how "dark" you want the sound...
It also depends on how "warm" you want the sound
This is important to read.
I dont believe that burn it works.
Well, axel grell (if u dont know him he is professional sennheiser audio engineer, and also its designer) said that burn in is will never work. Also phillips audio technician has already tested using laser from a dynamic driver that burned in for 300 hours, shows that the moves of the driver is the same from the first minute until 300 next hours. Burn in is just maybe a fool from the audio shop. The things that change the headphone sound is its headphone pads, if u wore it for months the pad will become more thinner, which mean that the driver gets closer to your ears, and make the mid frequency feels more forward.
Oh my god are those real holes in your ears
More like 1% of the time it MIGHT help..... maybe but probably not. If we were talking subwoofers that would be a different story
200 hour burn in isn't enough, you need to get a $700 cable filled with bullshit and uselessness
My s8 + got burn in so I switched to poled
burn-in is BS sry ...... drivers get burn-in just after they are made - capacitors they slightly improve but not audible. about the graph, if you take another measurement it will slightly change again. we should all be over this by now.
Evidence says otherwise
Are you sure that factory burn in is long enough. Dan Clark founder of MrSpeakers said on a head-fi thread that there is a measureable difference between a brand new pair of Aeons compared to a pair that have played music for 100 hours.
Don't forget, you need to burn in your amp, dac and cables too!
new nikes sux, my old ones rules
I know this is a headphone channel but I now regret burning-in my full-range mastering monitor speakers. They're getting close to the end of their life so I should NOT have let them play in the distributor's store room, thus decreasing their usable lifespan.
Burn in is not real, your brain gets used to the sound, before you put the headphones on again you know what kind of sound you will get out of them, your brain is just learning the speakers dont actually change...
Which is why I measured it to show that there's actually a change.
I beg to disagree. Depends on the headphone. Most headphones I've owned, the sound has not changed over time other than from changes to the pads or mods. But I've had to perform burn in on 1 pair, V-Moda M-100s when I got them out of the box, the highs were to loud and sharp. Coming from using LP2s, HD558/598s, M40Xs, MDR-V6s, it was too much, it was grating. I left it on playing my iPod library for an entire school week playing my library.
Only after that ordeal did they become my go to portable cans, and favorite headphones for anything non acoustic/classical music.
This myth is not confirmed, and I will leave it as psychological.
numbers aren't psychological Darin
Their may be changes in numbers, but can your brain actually pick up the changes is why audiophiles will never be happy chasing an endless grab for certain equipment. I am obsessed with music, but just enjoying music is much easier and more refreshing than searching for the perfect noise/sound because you'd be searching until the end of time because we can only compute so much no matter how good the source and speakers are. I had lots of expensive equipment, but for the money I had spent it's just goddamn not worth it, once you get so high in quality it's all the same shit.