Hi all, I wanted to pin a comment to say I don't necessarily believe the "work-around" layout for Frame1 or B0XX works. The fact that Mod-Y doesn't up-tilt makes it unviable for some characters. Nevertheless, if you own a rectangle, please use the video as a thought experiment. If only one of the points raised makes you re-think your current layout then it's at least achieved something. P.s. I still use this layout (though I switched [B Z X] to [Z X B] which makes specific Peach tech easier). I'm dumb, so when I need to up-tilt I just fat finger it, but as a Peach main up-tilt is pretty non-exsistent. I stand by the layout if you're able to reprogram Mod-Y with up-tilt (the layout from the video was birthed from the Bous' DIY which programming mimicks the SmashBox, which actually has four different modifiers).
thanks for pointing this out. Do you happen to know if theres a way to map modifiers to two places on Frame 1? atm i can only have MX set next to up, so even though im not using the workaround Uptilting is still a huge pain for me.
A small issue with this layout is that you cannot hold shield while your right hand is in position to perform a slide-off (preparing a diagonal ASDI input C-Down + C-left/Right). If the opponent delays their attack or misses their timing, you will go drifting off the platform instead of shielding, which might cause you to get hit anyway. For this reason, I think you'd want left pinky on L, to cover this situation
Awesome stuff, you've got me intrigued now even though im a falco player, i am definitely looking forward to that software remapper for my frame 1, hope it gets done soon after i get it
I really like this layout and I think its a really great improvement for most characters. That being said, I main Fox and will probably stick with the default one. Great vid either way.
Like the vid and made some great points that being said I'm going to stay blissfully following haxs recommend layout. He spent hundreds of hours thinking about this. Altho your probably right XD.
I will have to try this. I printed a bubblebox with the WASD layout and prefer it far more than the normal layout. I think my biggest complaint so far after a month is A and B being so far part is hard for my brain to get used to each time also the c stick buttons are just not great for me. I end up hitting them instead of A most of the time. So I am printing new keycaps for those that are smaller and I will see how it goes.
Coming from a traditional fighting game background, this immediately rectifies my biggest confusion with the default layout: up on lthumb has been a quintessential aspect of buttonbox design, why would smash buck this trend. Well I just picked up an LBX and I’ll be hitting it with this firmware the moment I get it. I’m more focused on ult than melee, but this looks much better for things like kazuya up tilt combos, Terry charge partitioning, and general flow of play. Big thanks to you and the bous crew!
if you want to analog L cancel, and can't afford to have Z on your home row, using one of the left thumb buttons for light shield might be helpful. if you want to have a sequence of L, Y and R on home row and don't want your pinky to be doing any shielding or L cancelling, like me, L cancelling with your thumb is not too bad. i play marth tho - having B on home row is way too good for spacies, at least when regarding the default b0xx/frame1 button spacing. different characters have different priorities i guess! regardless, nice video man. helped me reconsider the layout i was using.
Before I built my fake1, I was really interested in this video. After using it for a bit though, I feel like your layout is worse. Why put up on the left thumb? The only time I press up is for up tilt and my up b. I use the mod buttons constantly for wavedashing around and firing off tilts. And for the right hand, now the ring is responsible for jumping and middle finger for z cancel. But I jump far more often than I z cancel, so that doesnt make any sense. And the top row is practically unchanged as I realistically don't shield or tech nearly as much as the inputs all of my other fingers are doing, so left pinky made the most sense for that. All of your points about what is a better layout is unfortunately achieved by hax's layout for me.
I think you solved My problem, i have small hands. And while thinking about it, i got to two conclusions. While the left hand does all the work or movement, there should be a way to have two buttons to do attacks or anything else, like we see in standard controllers and the Nunchuck. I would love that arcade sticks had a button and trigger, i Will never understand why that isn't a type of option, i have only seen it on flight sticks and some random small "plug-in" tv "consoles". I have been practicing lately Melee on My standard keyboard, but because the buttons aren't placed in a diagonal sort of way, my hand wrists start to burn after a few hours. So i think it's because i have small hands, and the movement i do on my thumb is just too long to do use the c-stick moves.(altough it's pretty fun). And i also got to the conclusión that there's a possible solution for the c-stick section, so rather than 5 buttons, ends up with just 2 like the left side of the frame one and boxx. I might be wrong, but isn't it possible to configure a circular dpad (like the one of the Xbox one S/X) as the C-stick? It might be smaller, but since it's in the same section near the other A button, i think it could be more confortable than having other 4 buttons from the same size, altough if smaller buttons exist, they could just be replaced by them to not move the thumb as much. But either way, it's good to see someone making a discusion to look for ways to take things to the next level regarding ergonomics.
IM a marth main and im wondering what would be a good layout for marth? Im a righty and i don’t use my left hand as much (it’s my weaker hand) what would be a good layout to control marth’s aerials while keeping basic movements in mind?
Hey, I liked the video! Though I disagree strongly with a lot of what you said. L-canceling, waveshining and shining oos NEED to be in the home row imo. Sure, you may be able to do them in a vacuum, in training mode, where you have time to set up your hands, but in a match, your hands need to be normally resting in the position you’ll be. This design would feel unergonomic I think, since you’re constantly switching between the 2 rows, and sometimes using both at the same time. Plus, I think it’s essential to have L and R be in different sides. The fact that you essentially disregarded these points because you could do techs on training mode, in my opinion, shows a misunderstanding on what makes a design ergonomic, and what priorities you need to have in a match. Again, no hate. I loved the video, just thought I’d point out what I think. Thanks for reading, bye bye.
Looks functional enough. I think most the layout nuances on rectangle controllers come from digital directional buttons and integrating tilts, but having a stick solves that. Great to see the least used buttons assigned to the pinkie fingers. It looks well thought out, I can see some changes that could happen, but I'm not sure they would be improvements, more 'side-grades'. The placement of the A, Z, and C-Down look a little cramped in relation to the home row but its hard to tell with out having it in my hands. L-Canceling with Z after inputing an attack with C-Stick looks like your have to spread you hand to a completely different position BUT I'm not sure if that would be an issue at all, again it's hard to tell without having it in my hands. It's a little inconsistent that you have to L-cancel with R for your down-airs, but thats neither here nor there, I'm sure you'd get used to it after day one. I originally wanted to get the Smash Stick instead of box but Im impatient and couldn't wait haha. Plus, Im not sure my left wrist would handle dash dancing- but I think they have a shorter gate in the Smash Stick stick, so maybe it could!
is it really better to go from pinky to index? when I do a wave motion it is very clumsy and slow if I do it from my pinky to my index but it's smooth and rhythmic from index to pinky.
swapping Z and X is a terrible idea because it removes the consistent muscle memory of jc shine being the same motion as wavedash down... for spacies at least. Plus I like that middle finger is always jump regardless of which row it's on. Makes no sense to swap Z and X
You talking about the Pipsqueak/ Leffen build? I'm not sure, I'm no spacie main. I think Leffen has changed his layout even more since the initial Z and X swap, it would be interesting seeing what the final layout he lands on is. Pip seems to be killing it recently in the European circuit, so swapping the two cant be all that bad. Mint also had some success with that same layout. Maybe 'terrible' is hyperbole, though it is hard to deny the cold hard facts Hax laid down in that L cancelling video- great video
I disagree with a lot of this lol. Look at league of legends for example, a game that has been played by more people than probably any other game in existence, the button that is normally the most spammable ability for any character? Q, which is assigned to the left pinky. Nobody complained about that. Also, any MMO or MOBA ever has the home row on the bottom, and extra keys (1-9 and f keys) above so people ARE more used to home row on bottom. I will say, up on right pinky is unintuitive and a wasd cardinal direction layout is just straight up better, but left pinky should remain as L. I appreciate your time and effort put into this video but your layouts are just not better.
You’ve literally made the controller less ergonomic and are convinced it’s an improvement. The way you shine out of shield now requires a motion that is unhealthy for your hands long-term. There are no good arguments for any of the changes in this video. No offense, but I want to leave this comment for people to read and consider learning the default B0XX layout. It’s so good.
I get the feeling you may not have watched the video properly and from the analytics it looks like a lot of people didn't. Which is a shame because I say a few times that the default is good, and if you're using the default already just stay with it, and this video is just about creating conversation. I tried to give the full picture of the advantages of this layout in the video and hope people don't switch to it without considering all the points- especialy spacies. I'm glad to see a few comments from spacie mains saying it's an interesting idea, but they will stick with the default. Default is great for spacies. "unhealthy" hand motions are performed no matter which layout you use, it's all about reducing them. There is a part in the video that directly addresses the "unhealthy" motion of shine oos, you should try it, it's actually easy af and doesn't put strain on your hands. In saying all this, I'm certain that if my argument that changes are fine hasn't convinced you from the video and your points about JC and shine oos haven't convinced me, then just assume that I'm too far down the rabbit hole and anything you say will fall on deaf ears. I will assume the same thing as the evidence is clear.
@@heapsbutt9427 waveshine on B0XX doesn’t require you to be on two rows at once. You shine on one row and then move to the next row to wavedash. That’s not crossing rows. The way that you shine out of shield looks bad for your hands long-term.
Hi all, I wanted to pin a comment to say I don't necessarily believe the "work-around" layout for Frame1 or B0XX works. The fact that Mod-Y doesn't up-tilt makes it unviable for some characters.
Nevertheless, if you own a rectangle, please use the video as a thought experiment. If only one of the points raised makes you re-think your current layout then it's at least achieved something.
P.s. I still use this layout (though I switched [B Z X] to [Z X B] which makes specific Peach tech easier). I'm dumb, so when I need to up-tilt I just fat finger it, but as a Peach main up-tilt is pretty non-exsistent.
I stand by the layout if you're able to reprogram Mod-Y with up-tilt (the layout from the video was birthed from the Bous' DIY which programming mimicks the SmashBox, which actually has four different modifiers).
thanks for pointing this out. Do you happen to know if theres a way to map modifiers to two places on Frame 1? atm i can only have MX set next to up, so even though im not using the workaround Uptilting is still a huge pain for me.
A small issue with this layout is that you cannot hold shield while your right hand is in position to perform a slide-off (preparing a diagonal ASDI input C-Down + C-left/Right). If the opponent delays their attack or misses their timing, you will go drifting off the platform instead of shielding, which might cause you to get hit anyway. For this reason, I think you'd want left pinky on L, to cover this situation
This croaky voiced nerd has some realllly good points and ideas.My pinkie is feeling better already
Awesome stuff, you've got me intrigued now even though im a falco player, i am definitely looking forward to that software remapper for my frame 1, hope it gets done soon after i get it
I really like this layout and I think its a really great improvement for most characters. That being said, I main Fox and will probably stick with the default one. Great vid either way.
Do it, I think this benefits the rest of the cast more than it benefits fox and falco. Plus, the default layout is great for spacies
Loyal default layout-er. Great vid
Solid work mate, very well done
Thanks for this video! Going to try it out when I build my boxx soon
Sick. If you need any help building the thing get onto Crane’s Lab discord. Also, feel free to ping me on discord
@@heapsbutt9427 Still waiting for samducksa/crown buttons to restock (6 months >:O ) but once they do I'll be more active on the discord!
Like the vid and made some great points that being said I'm going to stay blissfully following haxs recommend layout. He spent hundreds of hours thinking about this. Altho your probably right XD.
I will have to try this. I printed a bubblebox with the WASD layout and prefer it far more than the normal layout. I think my biggest complaint so far after a month is A and B being so far part is hard for my brain to get used to each time also the c stick buttons are just not great for me. I end up hitting them instead of A most of the time. So I am printing new keycaps for those that are smaller and I will see how it goes.
Coming from a traditional fighting game background, this immediately rectifies my biggest confusion with the default layout: up on lthumb has been a quintessential aspect of buttonbox design, why would smash buck this trend. Well I just picked up an LBX and I’ll be hitting it with this firmware the moment I get it. I’m more focused on ult than melee, but this looks much better for things like kazuya up tilt combos, Terry charge partitioning, and general flow of play. Big thanks to you and the bous crew!
if you want to analog L cancel, and can't afford to have Z on your home row, using one of the left thumb buttons for light shield might be helpful. if you want to have a sequence of L, Y and R on home row and don't want your pinky to be doing any shielding or L cancelling, like me, L cancelling with your thumb is not too bad.
i play marth tho - having B on home row is way too good for spacies, at least when regarding the default b0xx/frame1 button spacing. different characters have different priorities i guess!
regardless, nice video man. helped me reconsider the layout i was using.
How would you L-Cancel after a slidoff aerial, since you can't access L, R or Z immediately after ASDI down-in?
Ok I think you could probably use ring/middle finger to hit Z
Good alternative layout! I will probably stick to default tho.
Hmm, i definitely do a an In-to-out motion and find that more natural than out-to-in
ME LIKE THIS VID AWESOME MAN DO MORE CONTENT LIKE THIS PLEASE, I LOVE YOU! YOU SAVED MY LIFE!
Before I built my fake1, I was really interested in this video. After using it for a bit though, I feel like your layout is worse. Why put up on the left thumb? The only time I press up is for up tilt and my up b. I use the mod buttons constantly for wavedashing around and firing off tilts.
And for the right hand, now the ring is responsible for jumping and middle finger for z cancel. But I jump far more often than I z cancel, so that doesnt make any sense. And the top row is practically unchanged as I realistically don't shield or tech nearly as much as the inputs all of my other fingers are doing, so left pinky made the most sense for that.
All of your points about what is a better layout is unfortunately achieved by hax's layout for me.
Great Stuff!
I think you solved My problem, i have small hands. And while thinking about it, i got to two conclusions. While the left hand does all the work or movement, there should be a way to have two buttons to do attacks or anything else, like we see in standard controllers and the Nunchuck.
I would love that arcade sticks had a button and trigger, i Will never understand why that isn't a type of option, i have only seen it on flight sticks and some random small "plug-in" tv "consoles".
I have been practicing lately Melee on My standard keyboard, but because the buttons aren't placed in a diagonal sort of way, my hand wrists start to burn after a few hours.
So i think it's because i have small hands, and the movement i do on my thumb is just too long to do use the c-stick moves.(altough it's pretty fun).
And i also got to the conclusión that there's a possible solution for the c-stick section, so rather than 5 buttons, ends up with just 2 like the left side of the frame one and boxx. I might be wrong, but isn't it possible to configure a circular dpad (like the one of the Xbox one S/X) as the C-stick? It might be smaller, but since it's in the same section near the other A button, i think it could be more confortable than having other 4 buttons from the same size, altough if smaller buttons exist, they could just be replaced by them to not move the thumb as much.
But either way, it's good to see someone making a discusion to look for ways to take things to the next level regarding ergonomics.
👍👍👍
IM a marth main and im wondering what would be a good layout for marth? Im a righty and i don’t use my left hand as much (it’s my weaker hand) what would be a good layout to control marth’s aerials while keeping basic movements in mind?
interesting video !
Hey, I liked the video! Though I disagree strongly with a lot of what you said. L-canceling, waveshining and shining oos NEED to be in the home row imo. Sure, you may be able to do them in a vacuum, in training mode, where you have time to set up your hands, but in a match, your hands need to be normally resting in the position you’ll be. This design would feel unergonomic I think, since you’re constantly switching between the 2 rows, and sometimes using both at the same time. Plus, I think it’s essential to have L and R be in different sides. The fact that you essentially disregarded these points because you could do techs on training mode, in my opinion, shows a misunderstanding on what makes a design ergonomic, and what priorities you need to have in a match.
Again, no hate. I loved the video, just thought I’d point out what I think.
Thanks for reading, bye bye.
Quick question: how does having modx and up both be done with left thumb not hurt your up b angles?
im curious about what you think about the smash stick's current layout and what you would do to better that
Looks functional enough. I think most the layout nuances on rectangle controllers come from digital directional buttons and integrating tilts, but having a stick solves that. Great to see the least used buttons assigned to the pinkie fingers. It looks well thought out, I can see some changes that could happen, but I'm not sure they would be improvements, more 'side-grades'.
The placement of the A, Z, and C-Down look a little cramped in relation to the home row but its hard to tell with out having it in my hands. L-Canceling with Z after inputing an attack with C-Stick looks like your have to spread you hand to a completely different position BUT I'm not sure if that would be an issue at all, again it's hard to tell without having it in my hands. It's a little inconsistent that you have to L-cancel with R for your down-airs, but thats neither here nor there, I'm sure you'd get used to it after day one.
I originally wanted to get the Smash Stick instead of box but Im impatient and couldn't wait haha. Plus, Im not sure my left wrist would handle dash dancing- but I think they have a shorter gate in the Smash Stick stick, so maybe it could!
Great video and highly detailed. But as a pc gamer for 25 years now, my pinkies are super strong lmao
Out of curiosity, why do you SHFFL from Y to R and not Y to L, if you advocate for outward to inward inputs?
where can i watch the 2hr Interview with the Guy/Member of the Bous Crew ?
is it on youtube perhaps ?
is it really better to go from pinky to index? when I do a wave motion it is very clumsy and slow if I do it from my pinky to my index but it's smooth and rhythmic from index to pinky.
How’s this layout compare to the default layout when playing Ultimate?
is it possible to change the layout of the B0XX?
I've always hated GameCube controllers. Boxes all day
Awesome vid
Who's the player testing in aus?
PewPewPetlar from Canberra
How can I change the layout of my frame 1?
How big are your hands so I have a comparison?
swapping Z and X is a terrible idea because it removes the consistent muscle memory of jc shine being the same motion as wavedash down... for spacies at least. Plus I like that middle finger is always jump regardless of which row it's on. Makes no sense to swap Z and X
You talking about the Pipsqueak/ Leffen build? I'm not sure, I'm no spacie main. I think Leffen has changed his layout even more since the initial Z and X swap, it would be interesting seeing what the final layout he lands on is. Pip seems to be killing it recently in the European circuit, so swapping the two cant be all that bad. Mint also had some success with that same layout. Maybe 'terrible' is hyperbole, though it is hard to deny the cold hard facts Hax laid down in that L cancelling video- great video
@@heapsbutt9427 But you could have JC shine be the same hand motion as wavedash! Why would you change it? Are you not a spacie player I guess?
I disagree with a lot of this lol. Look at league of legends for example, a game that has been played by more people than probably any other game in existence, the button that is normally the most spammable ability for any character? Q, which is assigned to the left pinky. Nobody complained about that. Also, any MMO or MOBA ever has the home row on the bottom, and extra keys (1-9 and f keys) above so people ARE more used to home row on bottom.
I will say, up on right pinky is unintuitive and a wasd cardinal direction layout is just straight up better, but left pinky should remain as L. I appreciate your time and effort put into this video but your layouts are just not better.
You’ve literally made the controller less ergonomic and are convinced it’s an improvement. The way you shine out of shield now requires a motion that is unhealthy for your hands long-term. There are no good arguments for any of the changes in this video. No offense, but I want to leave this comment for people to read and consider learning the default B0XX layout. It’s so good.
"no good arguments" lol
@@cairnsaiden I stand by it. I've been on the B0XX almost a year.
I get the feeling you may not have watched the video properly and from the analytics it looks like a lot of people didn't. Which is a shame because I say a few times that the default is good, and if you're using the default already just stay with it, and this video is just about creating conversation.
I tried to give the full picture of the advantages of this layout in the video and hope people don't switch to it without considering all the points- especialy spacies. I'm glad to see a few comments from spacie mains saying it's an interesting idea, but they will stick with the default. Default is great for spacies.
"unhealthy" hand motions are performed no matter which layout you use, it's all about reducing them. There is a part in the video that directly addresses the "unhealthy" motion of shine oos, you should try it, it's actually easy af and doesn't put strain on your hands.
In saying all this, I'm certain that if my argument that changes are fine hasn't convinced you from the video and your points about JC and shine oos haven't convinced me, then just assume that I'm too far down the rabbit hole and anything you say will fall on deaf ears. I will assume the same thing as the evidence is clear.
@@heapsbutt9427 no disrespect intended. All the best.
*Sponsored by Microsoft*
6:48 "shine out of shield is so easy..." oof that row crossing isn't good for your hands
Ive got some bad news about waveshine on box then...
@@heapsbutt9427 waveshine on B0XX doesn’t require you to be on two rows at once. You shine on one row and then move to the next row to wavedash. That’s not crossing rows. The way that you shine out of shield looks bad for your hands long-term.
Very good video, all around pretty solid