Thank you the detail's of the famine have been left out of a lot of history books. Potato blight seems to be the common cause, clearing a lot more was involved in the starving of people.
Thanks for the comment. The famine is a sad but important period in Irish history. Such a huge proportion of the population were totally dependent on the potato, that when the blight wiped out the potato crop, the result was horrendous.
My uncle died in the Caherciveen work house in 1919. What entity holds the admission lists from that time? I'd like to know the length of his stay. He had TB.
Hi, the Kerry workhouse records are held in the archives in Kerry library in Tralee. They do not seem to be available online. However, here is a basic link to the Kerry archives: www.kerrylibrary.ie/local-history--archives.html Have a look there are message them, they should be able to help you!
Rich landowners didn't give a damn about their own poor & starving. Ireland dosen't know the half of how the poor on the mainland were treated, the paupers they ignored & as late as 1935 one Lord put forward that the poor & a lot of the working classes should be transported. There's a equally sad history of how the poor & impoverished were treated as vermin in England, Scotland & Wales. The Workhouse was a familiar sight everywhere you went, paupers graves full of people who died of disease & starvation. Religions should also share their blame in this as full of Christian virtues, they certainly weren't !
The workhouse was based on an ideology that blamed poverty on the poor (and inversely let the rich believe they were rich because of their own efforts. I agree with you about how badly the poor were treated in the UK (but I wouldn't call in the mainland!!!). During the 19th century, however, many reacted to this ideology, leading to the emergence of the labour movement and socialism, and later to the foundations of the welfare state. Since the 1980s, the welfare state has been under attack.
@@forasfeasa Thank you for coming back to me but I think it had another name. My grandfather was there in 1914 when it was a hospital and he has a much linger name for it.
@@Boatman607 It could have been something like the Poor Law Union of Cahirciveen. I think the only way to find out exactly is to look at the official records of the time, which are in the Library in Tralee
You likely believe the government is benevolent. Always remember things are never as they are alleged and never as they appear. Perhaps always it lies between
I most definitely do not believe the government is benevolent, not at all. They were blinded by ideology, hated the poor, believed they were God's chosen people, and many other things (and I am not even going into their attitudes to non-white people). However, nor do I believe that the Famine was a deliberate genocide. Rejecting the idea of genocide does not automatically make someone pro-British (something that drives me mad with certain strands of Irish nationalism). Furthermore, the driving ideology behind British government responses to the Famine bears strong resemblances to what many in the world believe in the present, such as in the US and the UK. The famine cannot be explained without pointing out the failures of a capitalist system driven by a state bad market good ideology.
Actually some of the other workhouses in Kerry are in good condition and in use. In Tralee it is the county council offices and in Dingle/Killarney they are used as hospitals (though the one in Dingle may have closed). There are also one or two former workhouses in use as museums, for example Portumna
Charles Trevelyan assistant Secretary to the treasurer."The Judgment of God sent the Calamity to teach the Irish a lesson" It might be seen as political but that be the man's words.
The potato disease was unfortunate but the reality was the british government confiscated and exported Ireland's foodstuffs when their potato crop failed. There was other food however it was confiscated directly by british driven militia and officers. These constables and conscripts directly drove the people into starvation and workhouses, in that order. The absentee landlords and land ladies were ever omniscient in the form of this effective blood tithe. The government directly raided home and stole food, for export via legislation. There are many records. This video is false and only presents the most superficial government level that they needed to compensat lost and not harvestede the crown for the potatoes which were accidentally infected. They decide to conveniently genocide the folk and some rich irish did this aswell, for sake that the poor should starve in face of such national punitive damages, sought and excised by the crown. Leading to over 950k civilians deaths during to malnutrition and the disease that may be seen to coincide
Ps my message repeatedly altered itself as I wrote it and even the final message is wrought with typos which have proturbed me lol. Now I sound paranoid but it doesn't matter. There are historical records check yourself before you observe this writer's message
@@TooBakedToDecideName I have actually read a lot of history, looked at many historical records. What food did the British government confiscate - as opposed to food that was obtained through the capitalist system? Obviously, much of this was obtained from the poorest part of Irish society. However, the expansion of capitalist economic relations was impoverishing the massive poorest strata of Irish society, who by the 1840s were totally dependent on the potato. This group of people had no other real source of food. Could closing the ports have helped them? Yes, but especially in the later years, it would not have been enough to prevent starvation. Furthermore, the Poor Law and the workhouse were very important, because it prevented the provision of welfare outside the Workhouse and second made the local poor unions responsible for the provision of welfare. This had horrific effects in Ireland. Nonetheless, there was no decision to carry out a genocide - why would there be? The British government was not competent enough for this, while the Irish poor also provided a large amount of the manpower for the British army. The famine is complex and horrific, but it is not something that can easily be explained. It was not something with a single simplistic explanation. History rarely is.
The poor did eat barley. It was sold out from under them. Why sell all the food. What would you buy? Sure thousands even tens of thousands of affluent were less affected. It is still subversive atrition by export of food crops for cash or by punitive measures. We need to think critically. Were we over dependent on the potato? Yes. Did that lead to perhaps a million starved fatally? Logically, it is doubtful and paradoxical. The british published us because our crops were less for them. It was extortion theft and genocide
The poor were dependent on the the potato - along with milk and oats when they could. Some may have had access to barley, but for most it was the potato. In addition, Ireland was by then capitalist country, one based on an ideology which can be crudely called state bad market good. The famine showed that the basis of this ideology is completely and utterly wrong. Something which accusations of genocide or the 'Brits did it' help brush over. The irish socio-economic system in the 1840s was completely and dangerously unequal. 40% (I think, I am without access to my books right now) were totally dependent on the potato. When the potato got wiped out in successive years the result was horrific. Moreover, the safety net had been reformed shortly before, based on the above ideology, which meant that the already horrific results were exacerbated. At the same time, food exports continued from Ireland. This was done by individuals, many Catholic Irish. It was not LEGALLY theft, but the continuation of capitalist market relations. Was this obscene? Yes, but it has to be explained in the proper context, not just blaming the British. Under a different government/ideology food exports could have been stopped. Would this have made a difference? Yes - but not enough to have prevented the disaster (though this is a point that is in need of examining). I think we will have to agree to disagree, but have a look at the references given above in the video description (and feel free to indicate any readings you have).
What did I say is not accurate? The Famine was a terrible time. The British government was inept, especially after Russell came to power. It was blinded by an ideology that the state should not interfere in the economy (resulting in the Poor Law and the workhouse) worsened by anti-Irish prejudice. The Poor Law and the workhouse turned the potato blight into a disaster. There are many nuances and complexities in the response to the Famine and this needs to be acknowledged. A lot of very good work done on the Famine, such as Cormac O'Grada or Christine Kinealy - to name just two. They look at the real history in its full complexity. Books such as Fogarty's are emotive and distract attention from the fact that the Famine was caused by an anti-state, anti-welfare, market worshiping ideology which many people still support today.
@@forasfeasa that was *not* the only cause of the 'famine'. The biggest cause was the forcefully removed food from the Irish people, at gun point by British regiments. Evidence of which still exists. Additionally, the British THEMSELVES were calling it a holocaust. My people were slaughtered by an occupying force. Yes the potato is relevant, yes the anti-irish stuff was also relevant. So were the regiments and the constables and so was the food removal.
@@lexiibattwitch The Famine was caused because a huge amount of the population were wholly dependent on the potato (or on potatoes and a little milk). During the first half of the 19th century, the Irish economic was becoming increasingly capitalist. The population was also expanding, in part because of the potato. Land was rented through various tiers, with the bottom group, the cottiers having basically nothing, just a small plot for potatoes. Alongside this, the traditional means of dealing with Famine and poverty (outdoor relief) was abolished and replaced with the workhouse system. As i said a huge amount of the population (see Cormac O'Grada's work for an good explanation) were wholly dependent on the potato. The loss of the potato meant that they lost their food and starved, and died in massive numbers from disease. This was made worse by the laissez faire policies of Russell's administration (and anti-Catholic prejudice). In terms of calories the amount that was lost due to the failures of the potato crop was larger than the amount of food being exported. Indeed, a large amount of exports consisted of oats/barley, meant as animal feed. There was not enough food in the country to feed the population. Should food exports have been ended, yes - but most of these exports were from farmers (often small farmers) who depended on the income they earned). Saying that British troops taking the food from people caused the famine, is way too simplistic and ignores the real facts. Could the British government have done more - yes. However, their ideological system (one that still exists in the world today, especially in the US) prevented them from doing that. The Famine was horrific. However, it was a complex event and we owe it to those who lived through it (as my family did) to explain it with a proper explanation, not soemthing way too simplistic.
By whom? They are both important scholars, who back up their work with lots of data. Give me some references of this. Moreover, to call them liars is way over the top. However, I would be very interested in reading any of these outright debunkings
A dense, hurt place, with a dense, hurt history. Thanks for your video.
Thank you for your very clear and nuanced explanation. The workhouse is very intruiging.
Thank you very much. It is a difficult but important topic. I am glad you liked it
Amazing footage and nicely filmed ! You have a new subscriber :)
thank you very much!!! :-)
Thank you the detail's of the famine have been left out of a lot of history books. Potato blight seems to be the common cause, clearing a lot more was involved in the starving of people.
Thanks for the comment. The famine is a sad but important period in Irish history. Such a huge proportion of the population were totally dependent on the potato, that when the blight wiped out the potato crop, the result was horrendous.
What else though your response is a cyclical repetition perhaps allegorical to oftentimes the way folk may be prone to think in redundancy
@@forasfeasa...tis that so...very “sad”indeed it was
My uncle died in the Caherciveen work house in 1919. What entity holds the admission lists from that time? I'd like to know the length of his stay. He had TB.
Hi, the Kerry workhouse records are held in the archives in Kerry library in Tralee. They do not seem to be available online. However, here is a basic link to the Kerry archives: www.kerrylibrary.ie/local-history--archives.html Have a look there are message them, they should be able to help you!
Rich landowners didn't give a damn about their own poor & starving. Ireland dosen't know the half of how the poor on the mainland were treated, the paupers they ignored & as late as 1935 one Lord put forward that the poor & a lot of the working classes should be transported. There's a equally sad history of how the poor & impoverished were treated as vermin in England, Scotland & Wales. The Workhouse was a familiar sight everywhere you went, paupers graves full of people who died of disease & starvation. Religions should also share their blame in this as full of Christian virtues, they certainly weren't !
The workhouse was based on an ideology that blamed poverty on the poor (and inversely let the rich believe they were rich because of their own efforts. I agree with you about how badly the poor were treated in the UK (but I wouldn't call in the mainland!!!). During the 19th century, however, many reacted to this ideology, leading to the emergence of the labour movement and socialism, and later to the foundations of the welfare state. Since the 1980s, the welfare state has been under attack.
What was the full name of the workhouse ?
Cahirsiveen Workhouse, occasionally Bahaghs Workhouse
@@forasfeasa Thank you for coming back to me but I think it had another name. My grandfather was there in 1914 when it was a hospital and he has a much linger name for it.
@@Boatman607 It could have been something like the Poor Law Union of Cahirciveen. I think the only way to find out exactly is to look at the official records of the time, which are in the Library in Tralee
You likely believe the government is benevolent. Always remember things are never as they are alleged and never as they appear. Perhaps always it lies between
I most definitely do not believe the government is benevolent, not at all. They were blinded by ideology, hated the poor, believed they were God's chosen people, and many other things (and I am not even going into their attitudes to non-white people). However, nor do I believe that the Famine was a deliberate genocide. Rejecting the idea of genocide does not automatically make someone pro-British (something that drives me mad with certain strands of Irish nationalism). Furthermore, the driving ideology behind British government responses to the Famine bears strong resemblances to what many in the world believe in the present, such as in the US and the UK. The famine cannot be explained without pointing out the failures of a capitalist system driven by a state bad market good ideology.
Other Countries would have such a building in good order,and a place where tourist might learn of the building past.
Actually some of the other workhouses in Kerry are in good condition and in use. In Tralee it is the county council offices and in Dingle/Killarney they are used as hospitals (though the one in Dingle may have closed). There are also one or two former workhouses in use as museums, for example Portumna
Halting food exports would have fed ireland amply thrice by survival standards atleast
I very much doubt that, but would be happy to read any evidence you have of this
Charles Trevelyan assistant Secretary to the treasurer."The Judgment of God sent the Calamity to teach the Irish a lesson" It might be seen as political but that be the man's words.
It was probably a mix of politics and religion: which did not end well for the poor of Ireland
Thank you for reply good to know some are preserved.
You're very welcome@@johnroddy8756
The potato disease was unfortunate but the reality was the british government confiscated and exported Ireland's foodstuffs when their potato crop failed. There was other food however it was confiscated directly by british driven militia and officers. These constables and conscripts directly drove the people into starvation and workhouses, in that order. The absentee landlords and land ladies were ever omniscient in the form of this effective blood tithe. The government directly raided home and stole food, for export via legislation. There are many records. This video is false and only presents the most superficial government level that they needed to compensat lost and not harvestede the crown for the potatoes which were accidentally infected. They decide to conveniently genocide the folk and some rich irish did this aswell, for sake that the poor should starve in face of such national punitive damages, sought and excised by the crown. Leading to over 950k civilians deaths during to malnutrition and the disease that may be seen to coincide
Ps my message repeatedly altered itself as I wrote it and even the final message is wrought with typos which have proturbed me lol. Now I sound paranoid but it doesn't matter. There are historical records check yourself before you observe this writer's message
@@TooBakedToDecideName I have actually read a lot of history, looked at many historical records. What food did the British government confiscate - as opposed to food that was obtained through the capitalist system? Obviously, much of this was obtained from the poorest part of Irish society. However, the expansion of capitalist economic relations was impoverishing the massive poorest strata of Irish society, who by the 1840s were totally dependent on the potato. This group of people had no other real source of food. Could closing the ports have helped them? Yes, but especially in the later years, it would not have been enough to prevent starvation. Furthermore, the Poor Law and the workhouse were very important, because it prevented the provision of welfare outside the Workhouse and second made the local poor unions responsible for the provision of welfare. This had horrific effects in Ireland. Nonetheless, there was no decision to carry out a genocide - why would there be? The British government was not competent enough for this, while the Irish poor also provided a large amount of the manpower for the British army. The famine is complex and horrific, but it is not something that can easily be explained. It was not something with a single simplistic explanation. History rarely is.
@@forasfeasa...your being a smug sophist again...😂
Poor buggers
It is a very sad part of Irish history
@@forasfeasa My dad`s lot came to Australia after it
@@waynemcauliffe2362 From Cork?
@@forasfeasa Yeah Newmarket Cork where i hope to go in August
@@waynemcauliffe2362 Getting closer to your trip....
The poor did eat barley. It was sold out from under them. Why sell all the food. What would you buy? Sure thousands even tens of thousands of affluent were less affected. It is still subversive atrition by export of food crops for cash or by punitive measures. We need to think critically. Were we over dependent on the potato? Yes. Did that lead to perhaps a million starved fatally? Logically, it is doubtful and paradoxical. The british published us because our crops were less for them. It was extortion theft and genocide
Punished and falsely published us
The poor were dependent on the the potato - along with milk and oats when they could. Some may have had access to barley, but for most it was the potato. In addition, Ireland was by then capitalist country, one based on an ideology which can be crudely called state bad market good. The famine showed that the basis of this ideology is completely and utterly wrong. Something which accusations of genocide or the 'Brits did it' help brush over. The irish socio-economic system in the 1840s was completely and dangerously unequal. 40% (I think, I am without access to my books right now) were totally dependent on the potato. When the potato got wiped out in successive years the result was horrific. Moreover, the safety net had been reformed shortly before, based on the above ideology, which meant that the already horrific results were exacerbated. At the same time, food exports continued from Ireland. This was done by individuals, many Catholic Irish. It was not LEGALLY theft, but the continuation of capitalist market relations. Was this obscene? Yes, but it has to be explained in the proper context, not just blaming the British. Under a different government/ideology food exports could have been stopped. Would this have made a difference? Yes - but not enough to have prevented the disaster (though this is a point that is in need of examining). I think we will have to agree to disagree, but have a look at the references given above in the video description (and feel free to indicate any readings you have).
@@forasfeasa...oh dude...always ALWAYS have access to your books.That 40% is going to keep me awake at night
I blame the Whigs,laizzer faire policies.
Definitely. Laiser faire is complicated at the best of times. In the middle of the Famine in Ireland it was an absolute disaster
This isn't entirely accurate. I'd recommend reading Ireland 1845-1850: The Perfect Holocaust by Christopher Fogarty.
What did I say is not accurate? The Famine was a terrible time. The British government was inept, especially after Russell came to power. It was blinded by an ideology that the state should not interfere in the economy (resulting in the Poor Law and the workhouse) worsened by anti-Irish prejudice. The Poor Law and the workhouse turned the potato blight into a disaster. There are many nuances and complexities in the response to the Famine and this needs to be acknowledged. A lot of very good work done on the Famine, such as Cormac O'Grada or Christine Kinealy - to name just two. They look at the real history in its full complexity. Books such as Fogarty's are emotive and distract attention from the fact that the Famine was caused by an anti-state, anti-welfare, market worshiping ideology which many people still support today.
@@forasfeasa that was *not* the only cause of the 'famine'. The biggest cause was the forcefully removed food from the Irish people, at gun point by British regiments. Evidence of which still exists. Additionally, the British THEMSELVES were calling it a holocaust.
My people were slaughtered by an occupying force. Yes the potato is relevant, yes the anti-irish stuff was also relevant. So were the regiments and the constables and so was the food removal.
@@forasfeasa also O'Grada and Kinealy have both been proven Liars and propagandists and they've been outright debunked repeatedly.
@@lexiibattwitch The Famine was caused because a huge amount of the population were wholly dependent on the potato (or on potatoes and a little milk). During the first half of the 19th century, the Irish economic was becoming increasingly capitalist. The population was also expanding, in part because of the potato. Land was rented through various tiers, with the bottom group, the cottiers having basically nothing, just a small plot for potatoes. Alongside this, the traditional means of dealing with Famine and poverty (outdoor relief) was abolished and replaced with the workhouse system. As i said a huge amount of the population (see Cormac O'Grada's work for an good explanation) were wholly dependent on the potato. The loss of the potato meant that they lost their food and starved, and died in massive numbers from disease. This was made worse by the laissez faire policies of Russell's administration (and anti-Catholic prejudice). In terms of calories the amount that was lost due to the failures of the potato crop was larger than the amount of food being exported. Indeed, a large amount of exports consisted of oats/barley, meant as animal feed. There was not enough food in the country to feed the population. Should food exports have been ended, yes - but most of these exports were from farmers (often small farmers) who depended on the income they earned). Saying that British troops taking the food from people caused the famine, is way too simplistic and ignores the real facts. Could the British government have done more - yes. However, their ideological system (one that still exists in the world today, especially in the US) prevented them from doing that. The Famine was horrific. However, it was a complex event and we owe it to those who lived through it (as my family did) to explain it with a proper explanation, not soemthing way too simplistic.
By whom? They are both important scholars, who back up their work with lots of data. Give me some references of this. Moreover, to call them liars is way over the top. However, I would be very interested in reading any of these outright debunkings