CRT, Transphobia And Defund The Police w/ Actual Justice Warrior And Riley Grace Roshong
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
- Debate co-hosted by DylanBurns and The Middle Guy. Unfortunately the fourth person bailed just before it started and they could not find a replacement in time...
Date: Jun 12, 2021
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I think this is the first DylanBurns + Modern-Day-Debate cohosted debate? Unfortunately, the fourth person cancelled just before due to family emergency and they could not find a replacement in time.
Timestamps Click▼
0:00 - Teaser/Intro
0:17 - CRT and opening statements
1:08:55 - Where the line drawn on transphobia? Sports, merit and competing with cis women.
1:33:10 - Defund the police
1:59:30 - Q&A
I mean the first one would be the Hippy Dippy one with like 12 people, wouldn't it?
Its not about subjective / objective. We don't let teachers teach Christianity in public schools. There are laws against it. CRT is a kind of religion - it offers nothing where one could create an experiment to prove or disprove. This is fine for things like sociology or history in cases where there is wide agreement. If there's not wide agreement, we shouldn't indorenate kids with it without offering it as an entre in a buffet of other opinions for perspective.
"no true scotsman" off the bat
lived experiance ="subjective truth"
allways start with everyone defining it
The problem with subjectivity-
Person A is introverted, autistic, and white. They have social anxiety and prefer to be left alone.
Person B is black, extroverted, and friendly.
Person B sees Person A crossing their path. Person B, in an effort to be polite, smiles and says, "How's it going?" Person A avoids eye contact and mumbles a response before they continue walking.
Person B says, "they must be racist because they won't even look me in the eye."
No, that's america. In Brazil if someone doesn't talk to you he's at worst rude, not racist.
@@brunoverasferreira6263 It was actually just pointing out the problem of subjectivity, as was mentioned in the first sentence.
Are you person A?
@@jlall4467 No, but I've seen something very similar play out in front of me.
So not everybody who acts weird around black people is a racist and it's a bit more complicated than that? Wow such incredibly profound point
Wow, Riley and Destiny seemed wholly unprepared for the CRT debate.
Riley made great arguments for fascism.
"Yeah Hitler this that and Franco and Mussolini did this but that doesn't show me what fascism in theory is about.".
Ikr! It's as if they’re time travelers from the early 1990s, when CRT was a graduate level course or "lens" and was actually useful, as in Kimberlé Crenshaw's thesis about Black women being discriminated against due to both their sex and their race.
But that was the 90s, and in the intervening decades, CRT has morphed into a different and pernicious form, and is currently being pushed by the NEA via teachers' colleges into grade schools, where it's teaching White kids that they're inherently racist, and teaching Black and Brown kids that they're inherently victims. 🤨🤦🏾♀️
Steven looks like Frodo Baggins if he never left with the Elves.
holy fuck, gottem hahaha
Didnt go to Valinor, just wanted to return to the Rift.
Haflings are the superior race tbh
i read this and scrolled up to look at him at an apropos time had quite the laugh
Too many winters and too much of the halflings' leaves this one has seen.
Destiny did a good job watching this debate
I think he recognized sean came to debate in good faith and he realized he was outclassed on a dumb topic his fans want him to defend.
@@GucciGengar. certainly ain't the first time I've seen him do that. Reminds of of the Martin Shkreli "debate."
@@GucciGengar. I'm not sure if I would use the word outclassed but I agree that this was finally a good faith debate. I think Destiny made it pretty clear that CRT has its flaws. They just circlejerked on that topic imo.
@@Slyfa187 So it’s flawed and isn’t being taught to our kids (lie), just the teachers who teach the kids and create the lesson plans, based on the flawed ideology?
@@Slyfa187 He was outclassed, because his position was poor.
Yesh, AJ just dominated this debate. I understand why Dstiny sat back and didn't really push, it felt like a 2 v 1, but damn, The result is AJ took the W in this and it wasn't even close.
CRT is better than LED no debate. Sadly my 22 year old CRT monitor died recently.
I miss my CRT TV. I think it was faulty electrical wiring that broke it so it could have lasted a long time under normal conditions.
Ya'll sleeping on OLED though. 😂
@@witchofmemes OLED's only for the 1%
@@SuperLotus damn... I've been outed! 👀💀
Riley's entire argument was 'yeah but there's probably more to it' without saying what.
It is knowing that CRT isn’t it
They both responded to AJW's multiple examples of foundational scholarship, which is faithfully represented in current scholarship, with essentially, "yea, but that's not what I hEaRd...". They would both make fantastic CRT students
I couldn't really put my finger on it my issue with her, but this is it. She just danced around the issues.
Your straw man of riley never said what it was either LOL, nice self-own genius
@@MaximusTCR 12 minutes in and AJW gives up his entire argument, and says the quiet part loud "we have a fundamental misunderstanding of CRT" when he either meant to say "fundamental disagreement" or "YOU have a fundamental misunderstanding of CRT" LOL, he self-reported and pssed himself there too funny.
I like Destiny and think he usually comes out on top of his debates, but AJW won this one hands down and I think the reason is that Destiny was stuck defending a really weak position. When that happens, the right thing to do is to question whether you should have that position at all.
Yep.
he didn’t lose on CRT
Yeah. Good thing about destiny tho imo as conservative is that i can see why he says what he says. Like he has his entire moral system mapped out which is rare, so im jot angry that he didnt agree or anything i just disagree
@@heavenshound6775 he should because its impossible to defend such an insane ideology against anyone competent.
He lowkey did, in a country that has more guns that people, no education on gun safety, how to file taxes, insurance, etc.. In highschools. 🤔
2 vs 1 but Destiny and Riley clearly underperformed in the CRT debate, they weren’t even engaging with what the guy was saying.
Yeah same. The more that I hear Destiny on this topic the more I realize he doesn’t really understand the topic.
@@evanr5871 did you watch him prep? He basically watched a small portion of like a lecture...meanwhile theres a load of actual scholarship and crt books for kids in schools.
This is every single debate or conversation around the topic of CRT because the pro and anti side of the argument almost never agree on the meaning of CRT and even if they manage that they still have to agree on what the framework of CRT in practice would look like which has certainly never happened today even 5 months After this video. It's just a bunch of talking in circles even if both sides are acting in good faith.
The anti-CRT guy was definitely undereducated on what CRT is. He was completely wrong and biased in his definition and purpose of CRT.
@@azurezerox8392 the problem is that the pro-side either doesn't debate at all (the scholars) or if they do debate in favor of it, they aren't educated in much and/or agree with it and therefore have to lie about it.
Actual Justice Warrior's point about CRT refusing outside scrutiny is a good one. Destiny's counter about other academic disciplines problems criticising each other was superficially plausible, unless you have experience of the scientific field and can spot the category error.
To take an example, when physicists or mathematicians critique climate scientists they do so on the basis of their climate model assumptions or i.e. the mathematical propagation of uncertainty in their calculations. The scrutiny and response can be emotional and melodramatic, but it succeeds or fails on the basis of disagreement on the facts. It isn't dismissed on the basis of the identity of the person or the field of study from which it originates.
To reject criticism because the critic is white, or is criticising using logical structures you identify as white, is a fundamentally different category of rejection than rejecting criticism because of disagreement of fact or logical inference from facts.
Is there any proof that they reject criticism academic paper on CRT? I only saw it asserted and that some authors rejected criticism levied broadly at the theory because it was part of perceived racism.
Nice!
YES, man that Destiny reply actually pissed me off I don't know if it was out of ignorance or bad faith but COME THE FK ON.
@@bertthompson4748 Yes. One of the important themes of CRT is something called standpoint epistemology, i.e. that members of specific minority groups hold unique authority on issues connected to their own minority group. It also asserts that white people, as members of dominant race, don't hold this authority because every minority will be by definition introduced into the epistemology of the dominant group.
@@theludvigmaxis1 as someone who is published how would you respond if someone in the psychology department reviewed your paper and found it lacking?
Destiny and Riley be like: true CRT has never been tried.
Critical race theorists are always one hate crime away from utopia
I'd say good joke but socialism is already a joke so you're joke is more of a meta joke in which case, here is my meta thumbs up
@@bobDotJS Tell that to Scandinavia
@@juuk3103 Scandinavia has been riding a slow hill downwards for quite some time. They’re a lot less hopeful than you are.
@@whatsinaname691 No they haven't I'm Scandinavian buddy, stop lying and making up stuff, i lived half my life in Denmark and my grandfather is Swedish. I know more about Scandinavia than you ever will, stop making up things it's pathetic.
Destiny always looks like he's not paying attention... Then he speaks and he's heard every word. I wish I had that superpower. But, if I look like I'm not listening... Chances are I've heard nothing you said 😂😂😂
I can't even play video games and hold a conversation at the same time !!!
I have ADHD. I've basically thrived on being able to stare at a wall and hear every word uttered in a room
Most of the times he looks like he's not paying attention is because he is actively taking notes. That is what all that clicking is in the background.
Its fairly normal actually.
For some, keeping their hands busy with a small task allows their brains to focus on whats being said and processing it better.
Some make small gestures, others are just insanely good at multi-tasking.
I would be part of the first I mentioned. I was always the kid in school drawing on his paper while the teacher spoke. Even made agreements with my teachers (most at least) that they would let me kinda doodle or fidget around because the effort of not doing that took my attention away from the lesson and always ended up with me doing worse in grades.
Couldn't agree more.
I hope people learn (like Riley mentioned) to completely drop the idea of inherent racism, it's a far more damaging idea than people realize, and it can even reduce the effectiveness of attempts to reduce racial tension and discrimination.
How is it damaging?
@@BottegaVenetaa without hearing any arguments, my guess is that the idea of "inherent" racism could essentialize racism of a group or person and saw off the capacity for a group to change. If a group of people can't remove their racism because it's "inherent" that actually makes it harder to push for improvements. It would be like trying to reform the Balrog so it did not attack the fellowship.
As a Muslim I find it a very Christian idea.. like the concept of the original sin .. people should aknowledge but shouldn't bare the sins of their fathers imo
@@BottegaVenetaa because its a 21st century spin on x race having a genetic deficit.
@@cerdon4076 what? Inherent racism exists in everyone. That's what tribalism is. It's not endemic to any particular race.
The whole "this isn't being taught in grade school" and "no worries for k-12" sure didn't age well lol.
Also hilarious they don't wanna hear "the literature" on crt, but immediately jump to it for trans arguments. lol An even more funny that their "literature" is incorrect, as their arguments only account for 1 of the many aspects which give significant differences in body structure. From motor skill increases like reflex times, bone density, more durable ligaments, and numerous other advantages apart from the typically T benefits.
Based take. It has been nothing but bittersweet sweet, sweet, sweet vindication for me and people like me (us?).
@@OrdoAbChao-kg5rf trans people are the reason u cant do roman empire.
Idea laundering
AJW cites scholars of CRT, points out specific examples of it being taught to kids, tries to stay on topic and absolutely won this debate. Destiny is a good guy and I enjoy his content even when I disagree. I'm glad he kind of sat this out as it not dogpile on AJW... But, honestly, I think AJW could have handled it lol! Destiny v AJW would be a better discussion imo. They should have tried to get PSA sitch or someone to fill the 2v2 void.
Vaush won
I think AJW was really passionate in his disgust for CRT while neither Destiny nor Riley had much passion in the other direction. I was just hoping to leave the conversation with a better idea of what CRT even is, but I guess if I've made it this far in life without knowing there's no reason to start now.
@@Ngooo
I didn’t watch the whole thing. I’ve spent a lot of time reading / listening /speaking to critical theorists, and a lot of time doing the same about critical theorists. I found this whole thing really frustrating to listen to. What was the math example?
@@ataridc yeah, I tend to fall on AJW's side here. To sum up what CRT is... I'd just say it's activists and civil-rights scholars examining law through a racial lense rather than an equality lense. If that makes sense.
By its own admission (through various scholars and journalists who are proponents of CRT) it relies more heavily on storytelling from individuals and extrapolates a general consensus from stories rather than an academic measurement. It also skirts academic scrutiny because they reject standard liberal practices. The whole idea is to deconstruct how we measure things. If CRT is questioned it's advocates aren't subject to providing evidence or proving their ideology based solely on the idea that it's THEIR truth.
It shouldn't be banned because that's absolutely ridiculous government overreach. But, it shouldn't be taught in elementary schools. Especially when white guilt is something to strive for. Being told you're racist and can't help it and that your race is so powerful they're holding down other races (who are seen as perpetual victims) is a sure fire way to create a racial divide and white supremacists while pushing a victim mentality onto all minorities -- and especially black minorities.
CRT rejects color blindness and most of MLK's messaging. They don't believe in a meritocracy where content of character is important. Rather, they believe your race plays a bigger role in who you are. CRT isn't all bad, there is a lot of truth in it. However, it's wild interpretations posit that the stories of some are true to the stories of all. There's a lack of accountability which can be dangerous to young impressionable minds. But, it has value with someone like you or me because we have the ability to criticize. Kids being taught would be a travesty, imo. Adults, not so much. We can make up our own minds and discuss.
Wow, I'm too long winded haha sorry. Hope that helped.
Saun: Quotes CR Theorist
Whoever: But how does that connect to Critical Race Theory?
its insane that they kept doing that lmfao
What is even the counter argument here? Foundational examples from influential critical race theorists are given, that's countered with "is that relevant to modern CRT?" Yes, obviously it is. The most popular modern voices in CRT like Kendi, Crenshaw and DiAngelo all say things in the same vein. It's so obvious Destiny and Riley know next to nothing about the actual ideas of CRT/Critical Theory in general.
It can be relevant in terms of learning how the theory progressed but it's quite possible none of the education plans or implementation of CRT in education have any relation to the examples he brought up. It's very telling he didn't offer any examples of harmful lessons actually being offered in schools.
@@BottegaVenetaa That could be said of any ideology or school of thought no matter how pernicious. A curriculum based on any terrible ideology may not include the harmful aspects of it, but why assume that?
It's on Destiny or Riley to bring examples in the affirmative and they couldn't because they're uninformed.
@@sadpotato4931 actually destiny found nothing but bad examples of it being implemented while prepping for the debate
@@sadpotato4931 you're literally arguing, "CRT is bad because the creators of CRT said stupid stuff. Provide me evidence that CRT curriculum doesn't also say the stupid stuff or I'm correct". If you really care about the curriculum and think it's bad, show examples of it. If not, the conversation goes nowhere
@@BottegaVenetaa Destiny already found bad examples in his pre-debate stream and we have well known Twilight Zone episode level examples of CRT causing dysfunction in education like Evergreen.
The thumbnail looks like destiny is the jealous nerd looking over at the attractive couple in class.
Riley looks grotesque in that thumbnail.
@Throw the S0d0mite onto the B0nfire sounds like you're an egg.
@Throw the S0d0mite onto the B0nfire yeah, you're definitely fighting something within yourself. Good luck becoming a better person. It's gonna be a tough road but I believe you can do it.
She's pretty for a man
@Throw All S0d0mites onto a Bonfire yeah, I'm sure you're right. The voice is quite off putting. Even if they get the surgery, you're basically putting it inside an inside out ball sack or what lol?
Destiny should reach out to AJW and have a one on one!
@@cynicalmemester1694 what? Ben Shapiro's fine
@@Fr3eazE He's not
@@14DANESSJ why?
@@Fr3eazE You're not serious, especially on this channel lol
@@14DANESSJ tell me, unless u dont legitimately have a reason
I predict 95% of this debate will be arguing over the definition of what critical race theory is.
Stitches law
@@nicholasdaley7041 I looked it up and found nothing. What does it mean?
@@nicholasdaley7041
Sitch's Law.
@@hoominbeeing stiches law
@Hoomin Being 99% of arguments on the internet are arguments of definitions.
This is crammed with no true Scotsman fallacies. You give a concrete example of what is considered seminal work or what popular figureheads in the movement actually say and it's considered to be some outside view that's not real CRT because it's just 1 specific example, so you give another and same response. What is most alarming about this is that in most other academic disciplines there's checks and balances to correct bad arguments, but there is a call to consider that as a racist process in this case which can be ignored. People like Riley will mouth the platitude that these extreme examples are bad and should be criticized but never acknowledge the inherent problem of doing that in a system that rejects criticism. It's a lot like the post modernism trap where postmodernists just see debate of ideas as fundamentally not legitimate and just another power game and so have a mechanism to protect bad ideas from question.
I also find the ideas that it's just happening a bit and not on mass to be extremely dismissive. It's like saying OK there is sexual assault that happens, but how much is it happening really? It's these kind of casual dismissal of peoples legitimate concerns that lead me to believe people in support of CRT want to appear critical or open to criticism only as far as to push it into the mainstream where it can then just run rampant.
Yes I find Destiny's takes typically agreeable but his defense of CRT was predictably weak.
Postmodernism though is different, it's not really even socially toxic like CRT it's more just straight up sophistry. The "value" of postmodernism in history is in its "modesty" or ability to look at history through a method of "analysis" that is to quote Ginzburg "irrationalism of an aesthetic variety." I guess you could argue it's dangerous in that it imparts an aggressively boring version of history that inspires apathy in the unfortunate youths of the West but that isn't as clear and present as the issues with CRT.
@@Anonymous00616 I made the comparison in the context that AJW was worried about, which is that if a field has some mechanism to suppress criticism then it can lead to absurd conclusions. With postmodernism it's that things such as science itself is corrupt and just another power game, that there's no real canonical truth or interpretation, it's all just used to leverage as power. And it prevents sensible critiques of the work inside its own echo chamber. The same can be true for CRT, if they get to set a standard whereby they can reject evidence because it's say not a black scholar or doesn't align with a black persons anecdotal experience then they can throw it out. There's a real danger there because part of the process that makes science so powerful is having that peer review feedback loop to find and eliminate bad ideas and signal boost the better ideas.
I agree completely. The guy who was arguing against was quite well prepared and his arguments (whether you agree with them or not) were solid and accurately based on actual CRT writings. Yet, Destiny & the other individual just kept saying "well, you're only giving one example" or "you're only talking about one particular author" then "do you know that's true in all cases?" "Let's not throw it all out just because there are some negative examples!" But... he's giving legitimate objections.
I think if people wish to study CRT in college or even in elective courses in some prep schools, so be it. But generally speaking, it's not helpful to teach young children to view the world through a racial lens. Plus, primary education is a matter of priority, because there is only so much time in the school day. It's not that there's no value whatsoever to any writing by any author in CRT; it's that school children don't yet have a nuanced understanding of the world and their time (& society's tax dollars) will be better spent on more fundamental skills like reading, writing, mathematics, science, etc.
AJW: *Points to examples of bad behaviour being justified by ideology.*
Destiny: No one is comitting or condoning these actions.
Destiny if someone gives you concrete examples over and over again you cant say its not happening. You arent debating at that point. You have to prove it to be false or explain why even if its true that you approve of it and explain why you are for it.
Commenting to see replies
I haven't watched the entire thing yet but I'm going to assume destiny means on like a wide scale, or a sort of organization. One off actions by random people doesn't necessarily point to a larger problem.
I'm just guessing I haven't reached this part yet
Can't wait to see destiny stans attempt to argue against this.
Yeah I said this in another reply but it's very telling that AJWs critiques of CRT come down to, "the founder said this in a book" and not "look at this lesson plan it says x y z bad thing".
@@JH-ci7gu sure. It can be applies to any radical belief structure or movement. The way Trump supporters look at almost the same conflict is eerily similar in scope.
AJW crushed it on CRT.
I don’t think it’s a matter of being prepared there just is no winning argument against the facts ajw presented
"It seems like the reaction to the issue is disproportionate to the size of the issue," is the 2021 version of "it's only college kids, it's not big deal."
Or 15 days to slow the spread
@Nick Bacigalupo I think their main concern is that It's disproportionate to the amount of white people k1lled by cops that are unarmed, not that they're dying in general.
@Nick Bacigalupo
"1 death is a tragedy, 20 deaths is a statistic"
@@hoominbeeing They only make up 13% of the population. You may as well say that car wrecks or heart disease is racist, since they kill WAY more black people. If you're a minority population, then you'll be affected "disproportionately" compared to others, it's math.
@@sadboipotato3382 I'm not disagreeing that it's not racism that causes this disproportion. I'm just stating the reason why many leftoids like to whine about it.
I'm a huge Destiny fan. Destiny did not do well in the CRT discussion. Destiny looked unprepared beyond two forms of defense: 1. To force AJW to justify their positions (which to AJW's credit, they were able to do!) and 2.To attempt to downplay CRT (one commenter said below that the position Destiny essentially took was that it was "just a few college kids" oversimplified but a correct summation IMO). Riley also tried to bring the conversation down to something other than substance at about 1:05:00.
What Riley and Destiny SHOULD have done IMO is take elements of CRT that they could agree with AJW on and get AJW to admit that these elements deserve a spot in our American curriculum. This is a fine line to tread, because what Destiny did not want to do here was buy the whole house: with all the nonsense and viciousness, because that stuff is barely defendable with a straight face/in good faith.
This matches my feelings. CRT is very broad, and I feel that, by trying to argue about the whole field at once, destiny and RGR were forced to take very weak positions. AJW, on the other hand, could just point at disagreeable early writings and insinuate that they are the core of modern CRT, even if this is not the case across most applications of the theory.
Yeah sure and also let's have prayer in schools and have many courses teaching the Bible. Sounds insane to you, right? Well, don't act surprised when you blatantly want your race-hustling CRT propaganda polluting children.
@@TheStrix Thank you for your response. Please correct me if I am wrong, but your comment highlights an important distinction within the broader discussion of CRT's place in our elementary/middle/high school system.
Years ago Chomsky joked about "theory" in general, that many in the field(s) essentially wanted to make their writings impenetrable to outside readers much like physics. lol. This raises a question related to implementation, if you concede that many of the writings are like that and that there are (in your words) "disagreeable" writings, are American public school teachers as a whole equipped to teach this delicate topic? Are American students as a whole able to learn as these topics? If a 3rd grade discussion on the concept of "whiteness" can at any moment teeter into impenetrable drivel or absurdity, should it be taught at all beyond a very, very basic introduction to the topic?
If you say yes, that it is still worth being introduced, my final question is, if only a very broad and very delicate intro should be taught is it no longer CRITICAL? Has it lost what is supposed to make it disruptive to the broader centers of power? This seems to be a paradox of sorts in the discussion.
I think this is the facet of the discussion that rarely gets discussed! Curious to hear your views.
I'm not sure about your take here, most of what AJW said weren't about CRT but things that sound bad that some people said. Also he didn't seem to understand many of the deconstructions that CRT speaks to. Destiny pointed out his problem with history and math.
@@chipo746 Thats a good question. I don't think that complexity is the restrictive factor in this topic, but rather its radical quality. I think that teaching very basic ideas, ones that are broadly agreeable, like the idea that race is a component of an individual's material condition, and that sometimes our systems work to keep the people who got power first from losing it, are still critical. These ideas plant the seeds for more nuanced conversations later in life, and I think it is much easier to have a conversation about with someone who has learned to acknowledge that race still affects people's lives while they were young, rather than needing to start from square one.
40 min in and I think they outpaced Destiny intellectually.
It's the backlash from the left, he gets along more with the right. He does this thing which is really smart and come up with really good arguments for sides(sometimes more for the right) of a debate so he can have his talking points ready(not here). But the more and more I watch his old videos he feels like a plant from the right, though I can understand not belonging to a "political club" and regurgitating talking points that "my side" has or the "heresy" of going against them. People freak out when some on the left are "pro life" and when some on the right are "pro BLM" or shit like that.
@@llehsaderob I only said that because of the Vaush meme.
At first, I hated him. After listening a couple of video, I started to see him differently. He's smart and is able to think critically.
@@someonecomenting1300 he's smarter than most other streamers but that bar is set low...I'm gonna even include youtubers but there he has more intellectual competition so to speak I wish he would interview someone like secondthought or similar.
The one thing he knows how to do to a T is piss people off and shape your image of him with things like "I'm the kind of person blah blah"
His debates are fun to watch but he's fallen off from nazi stomping in the past, that may also be cause there's also less of them these days with all the social media banning and whatnot.
Disappointed that Destiny didn't seem to do any real research. AJW had this one in the bag, hands down no contest.
Kind of like what happened with Ryan Dawson tbh, dude was a walking encyclopedia.
Yeah it was pretty weird
facts, my dude just watched some youtube videos with black people in it and called it research smh
I tried to tell him in the stream to get into contact with PSA Sitch, but he kinda blew it off. He may disagree with him. But the guy has done his research into CRT. Who the main academics are, what books they wrote, what all their arguments are etc. Did those two have some sort of issue with one another or something?
@Alfonso Mendoza he didn’t push back later in the debate because he got dunked on so hard
It sucks that Destiny felt obligated to defend CRT. Even if the idea behind it is meant to be positive, the way it is being implemented is absolutely cancerous and toxic.
The idea behind it is not supposed to be positive.
@@daltonbrasier5491 that's why I said "even if" because Destiny thinks it is.
How has CRT been implemented?
Great job by everyone involved. More debates like this are good for discoruse
Just remove riley and give destiny more time to prepare and we have a debate.
Lol that is true, but i actually liked how they ran it. For being a two vs one with the dropout, it seemed to be more a polite discussion and disagreement. Not really a debate
@@pipinghotarbys3079 Well Sean doesnt get in yelling contests like what normally happens on that channel. I Actually think destiny backed out and let riley takeover once he realized Sean will actually have a conversation and was substantially better prepared than either riley or destiny.
Vaush seems to have ruined destiny in the sense of having a genuine conversation.
@@GucciGengar. it's something like that. I'd like to lean more towards the idea that destiny sort of changed his role in these discussions over time from what I can tell. He's seems to be displaced in conversations that don't get out of hand or radically irrational because he mostly quashes ridiculous ideas before they can get a foothold in the conversation (rightfully quashed most of the time). I do attribute that mostly to the likes of vaush and the serfs. He's spent too much time deep in the fray of radical craziness, stared into the abyss and the abyss staring back type of thing.
I say all of this as somebody who has been binge watching destiny's videos for only a couple weeks so my perspective may be wonky possibly making my assessment wonky admittedly.
@@GucciGengar.destiny low key agrees with ajw
AJW won this pretty clearly. He cited examples of problematic foundational works and gave examples of real world implementation. All Riley and Destiny could do is just question how widespread it is, they didn't actually defend why CRT should be taught in schools nor give any real world examples of how it has been beneficial. I think debating anti-racist ideology would have been more productive.
He cited claims by people who were involved in the creation of the foundational works. Riley literally asks him several times how whatever x person says outside of CRT connects to the foundational ideas of CRT. Then Destiny asks whether they could just talk about the fundamentals of CRT and then agree or disagree about those things, but AJW didn’t want to do that.
Yup
@@KirkWilcox Oh shit it’s Kirk...a lion amongst sheep
@@jacobearwood653 so some founding fathers saying racist shit and owning slaves means the entire American project is poisoned? Some would say so, just wondering if you agree.
@@JusticeIsALie I still do not see why so many people are wrapped up in the idea that critiquing the people who were involved in the foundational documentation of an ideology is improper. We would not give this kind of good grace to any other ideology. We wouldn't say that Hitler's Mein Kampf is useless to understand and critique Neo-Nazi's in the modern day. Or that It's useless to read Marx because economies and classes were different in the late 1800's than they are today.
CRT debate in a nutshell
It looks like AJW is the only one that actual knows what CRT actually is. How? He read the foundational beliefs of the worldview in scholars who developed the theory. His two opponents did not.
Destiny unironically lost this debate.
Kinda hard to win when you must defend something that is almost as bad as creationism.
If you guys are talking about the CRT part, then you guys must be delusional if you think that AJW made any good points. Just walk through his logic from 12:30 to 14:50 and explain it to me and spend even a moment fact checking his claims there. The only reason why he managed to fool some people into thinking that he knows what he is talking about is because he made some very specific lies about a few CRT academics that D and R couldn't fact check on the fly, so they were left with pointing out how you obviously can't take what one or two academics have said and paint an entire field of research with it, which in comparison sounds weak although it is 100% true.
@@Naskinlahtaaja you lost
He should add whatever game he is playing in the description.
It think so too! I saw this one on Steam the other day and put it on my wishlist. "The Last Spell" store.steampowered.com/app/1105670/The_Last_Spell/
@@vertexicon1609 thank you
@@vertexicon1609 thanks. looks like it has pretty good reviews. I'll add it to my 500+ game wishlist...
The last evil
@@SuperLotus Right there with ya, I tried deleting them all so I could start a new wishlist, but it always fails.
Destiny flipped from wanting to talk about foundational discussion instead of implementation in schools to the complete opposite an hour in
was disappointed they didn't get into the Chinese remainder theorem
I thought that was what the whole alternative maths methods was about...
@@Jotakumon the title makes out like they will really go into the details of Chinese remainder theorem but they never even touch on it.
Still not sure why destiny defended crt when he sounded like he was against it when debating the black nationalist panel thing .
@@lance8163 i dont even know if it's that. He just enjoys playing devils advocate because he likes debate.
@@danielthewhalenegreanu6055 is that not just a specific version of what the other person said lol
@@Star-pl1xs nope devil's advocate has nothing to do with emotions. It's the opposite.
You have to set your personal emotions opinions and ideas aside and choose to verbally oppose them.
Its a good exorcise in logic reasoning and debating because if you fully understand or put yourself in the opponents shoes you can learn flaws on your own thinking and flaws in the opponents thinking.
Its like mental chess.
what did Destiny defend him on?
@@delicrux however, it can lead to you being antagonistic and being overly aggressive. People aren't going to take you seriously if you are going to be a contrarian all of the time. They'll just think you are taking an opposing stance for the sake of taking an opposing stance. That's not good faith, healthy, or genuine at all. You'll lose all trust being a "devils advocate".
Actual Justice Warrior won the CRT debate by miles in my opinion. He provided examples from foundational writers of CRT, examples from how it is being badly implemented by school boards whereas Riley kept ignoring the arguments and coming in with "but don't you feel like you're too X" takes. Destiny made some general arguments that nobody contested but failed to address the specific merits of teaching CRT in schools.
It was frustrating that nobody pointed out that his point that “A is a big author for subject X, A said Q, therefore subject X is in favour of Q” doesn’t follow. Marx said some anti-Semitic stuff. Does that make communism anti-Semitic? No.
Ayn Rand is a huge author for a lot of libertarians. Ayn Rand believed that the works of Victor Hugo were objectively more valuable than true confession magazines. But does that mean that libertarianism is at all to do with whether the works of victor hugo are more valuable than confession magazines? Of course not.
@@evaahh9584 You are quite wrong. He wasn't citing random authors, he was citing FOUNDATIONAL authors. Your analogy is also extremely bad as Ayn Rand disassociated herself with libertarianism so I don't know why you would think she's an essential writer for libertarians.
However, if you think of her in terms of the Objectivism movement, of which she was a foundational author alongside Leonard Peikoff then yeah, whatever she wrote is pretty much gospel. Actual Justice Warrior was making the same argument regarding CRT.
No offense to these three, but why are they the ones debating CRT? None of them seemed particularly comfortable discussing it, and it seems they all just recently read anything about it. I can't prove that, but it's my impression. Also, I was a bit annoyed when Destiny said things like "I seriously doubt anyone believes X" in response to AJW's direct citations and examples. Vaush does this too when defending CRT, speaking in generalities and injecting his basic understanding of it, rather than go with the actual examples. They should have gotten one of the people who hold those seminars on CRT for companies.
I don’t think anyone on the panel did to much study on CRT before this debate. Many of the things that Sean cited as crt being implemented in schools isn’t crt. Things like teachings on systemic racism, white supremacy or white privelege aren’t crt, or more specifically aren’t things banning of crt would prevent from being taught. The worst thing about this debate is that no one defined what crt actually is so Riley and destiny have a different definition than Sean
I agree with your first point, but it's a UA-cam discussion so my expectations are low anyway. But, to your other point, I have no clue how you took away from this discussion that AJW was bringing up specific points about CRT being taught in school. While the creators of CRT are relevant, examples of what they believe or argue in other texts is not as useful as just giving examples of actual CRT implementation and lessons. His inability to offer examples of problematic implementation is telling
@@isaiahthomas6744
Good luck finding a definition of CRT. Its already heavily No True Scotsman by the proponents of the practice. Not to mention there's a hard barrier of definitional word games that sinks hours of peoples time. Then switching definitions.
@@majdjinn5042 not really. All of CRT can be summed up in the analysis of historical and legal practices that have created both systemic and interpersonal racist attitudes and how those attitudes shaped American society even up until the modern day. The definitions are pretty straight forward as well.
The problem is ppl conflate crt with anti racism (Ibram kendi and robin diangelo) of which there are some common elements but are largely separate. Things like that Coca Cola race training that said to be less white for example is something that comes to race essentialist conclusions about race whereas crt rejects race essentialism all together.
@@isaiahthomas6744
It doesn't sorry you're fooled.
Came across to me like Destiny and Riley barely knew anything about CRT. The other guy's arguments were way more convincing. CRT being too subjective and based on stories for example, is a well known criticism. There was however barely even a rebuttal.
My main problem was I felt they didn’t give Sean anything to debate against. Sean would put for a point by a CRT scholar as evidence of it being bad. They would respond with something to the effect of “but what about stuff that isn’t the thing you mentioned”. And the “stuff” they put forward didn’t seem CRT specific in most cases.
@@chuckwalla123 he said that these people made statements he didn’t like. Not that they were weong
@@greyjedi1272 Are you really gonna sit here and say story telling is academic truth?
Please tell me what in CRT is objective truth I'd love to hear.
@@TheLotusmaster they addressed this topic, if you didn’t listen that’s on you.
Do for example the studies that look at sentencing data or the studies that use mock juries to compare how black vs white suspects are treated count as CRT to you guys, or do you just categorically place everything empirical outside of CRT and then come to the shocking conclusion that CRT isn't empirical?
The thumbnail is hilarious
It doesn't sound like the rebuttal for CRT has really been fleshed out by Destiny and Riley. What is the argument by the Left for CRT? I understand the need to have children act inclusively towards each other but I don't believe racism is an inherited trait. It has to be taught. Most of that influence one way or the other is from their parents not a school teacher.
In group preference is natural from birth...people have to be taught by experience not to be racist...but bad experiences will only reinforce their racism/in-group preference...
@@voiceofreason2771
In-group preference isn't racism.
@@voiceofreason2771 Racism is only one way in-group preference can manifest, and it really isn't the most likely way.
Again, even know this was a more tame debate if we can call it that. this dude on Modern Day Debates is a fuckin legend, one of the few actually good moderators, every single video i've seen with them in. must be around 40 by now... they're so damn good. They let the conversation flow unless it's getting to off topic, don't interject opinions, and stfu unless it's getting heated.... Need more of them.
I hate how the entire CRT argument boils down to, "CRT is both a tool that offers objective understanding of certain systems, and also a shield used by bad faith educators to make people treat subjective statements as objective fact. Both sides of the argument believe in only one definition but recognize the other as existing on the fringe."
But they are inferring that by I would assume is Critical Theory. But there are people who argue for CRT who have just fake conceptualizations of history. Like Black people were enslaved as a manner to impede them and was plot. Not that they were sold off as a plentiful resource by rival tribes/kingdoms by a buyer who had wealth and arms.
If history is a selection of subjective perspectives and cherry picked facts and all perspectives are as good as any, then the hard right taking over the public education system would be OK? We had these debates the last century with respect to Christianity in public schools. At least Christians don't categorically dismiss objectivity.
How you gonna release a 3 hour video of you not saying anything.
wow Destiny was super weak here on CRT. This "actual justice warrior" guy owned that debate. Well won!
So I'm not the only one that noticed. Phew.
Coming in I know who Sean is and he's not dumb like some of these other people in his sphere. I like destiny a lot but I come more from that side of the isle and tbh destiny is on the wrong side of the crt debate hard
@@shawnbrdlik6213 what do you think crt is?
@@ucheobiekwe2287 PSA Sitch put in a lot of background research into this and covers Bell very well, while Lindsay is a huge authority on it as well. I think they're pretty good faith in approaching these discussions as well, though Lindsay is a weird one
Imagine if CRT was instead about fascism and they were saying things like "yeah well you are kinda throwing the baby out with the bathwater when you say fascism is bad, surely we can pick and choose the good parts and still call it fascism right?" Or "so what if the founders of fascism said some problematic things in the foundational documents of fascism, that doesn't automatically make all of fascism bad."
I think they would unironically agree with that. They would have a problem with fascism based purely on its inherent tenets as stated by its definition.
Problem is, the problems AJW stated with CRT are not in its definition. This means CRT doesn't have to be what the founders stated; it just has to follow the definition to be considered CRT.
Destiny unironically made this argument in the last panel. Labels tell you nothing if no one can agree what the label is. Seems like CRT already has that problem and we should move on to just talking about teaching about civil rights, systemic racism, and how little has been done to correct systematically racist policies.
Just slapping a label on something and calling it wholeheartedly "bad" because of the label you put on it is the lowest level of policy discourse possible and it needs to stop. That goes the same for fascism, racism, and socialism.
Also if you're a conservative and want to win an argument with a liberal, just own the label fascist at this point, no one knows what it means anyway and the liberal will just walk away thinking they won the argument without actually explaining why the idea is wrong.
Pure nonsense.
The problem with CRT is that I get the feeling it’s coming from a place of hurt, and anger, which I understand. This means though, we would allow our children to be taught from those same “feelings”. I hope that makes some sense.
Generational curses.
It does make sense. Like ideally we could just stop acting as if ethnicity matters across every single dimension so our children could just see people and be a world where skin colors are only a way to pick people out of a crowd like hair color and any other philosophically meaningless feature of our appearances.
@@OrcintheBasement I wouldn't say that's a comparable subject but I'll bite and I'd say the declaration of independence was built from a a place hope, that we could build nation better than the one we were separating from. exemplifying why I don't find this comparable to CRT.
@@OrcintheBasement it wasn't written from anger or hurt.
CRT doesn’t have any qualitative or quantitative data. By it’s very nature it dismisses the scientific method and maintains that its claims don’t have to be backed up as it’s activist in nature. It’s about power not reality, and this is written in the literature.
When you have a theory which has no data and then claims it doesn’t need to back up its claims, you are safe to dismiss every single thing that it then goes onto claim.
AJW's humor is accidentally top tier. Such awkward delivery of somewhat witty responses was great
It came off as cringe because Riley and destiny were just not having it lol
They were very uptight.
@@daltonbrasier5491 it makes me think of when Destiny's stone face when JLP was singing that birthday song to a fan. 😂
@@thereddrob thank you for linking that 😆😆🤣
@@thereddrob he forgot his name like 5 seconds later!! Lolol
His channel is top tier as well! ;)
21:35 this moment is so funny because it reminds me of a group leader trying to explain his idea for the group project to someone who doesnt get it LOL
Destiny: "if you just use the term biological woman then no one will have a problem with that".
... Uh... No? Completly wrong? Many trans people will flip out over that lol
I don't even refer to gender anymore only sex.
He means reasonable people.
@@lawsonharrison6927 That's the safest way. Who should be allowed to play in competitive women's sports? Members of the female SEX.
I have declared myself defeated on the gender issue. I now only refer to people's sex and sex expression.
If anyone brings up orientation I nuke it from orbit.
He did qualify by saying “if you are having a medical conversation…”
Sean did well.
He did very well. CRT is bs and every sane person knows it. But there is a reason behind it. Keep the poc dumb, they have it worse in life, blame racism, make money of it, implement crt, keep poc dumb, repeat.
@@Hamzat22 Delusional conspiracy theory.
@@frostbite3318 sure. So go to any job interview and talk slang. They will hire you so fast. And also say you are not intersted in the results of your work, just the journey.
@@Hamzat22 Lmao sure, don’t show your work in mathematics like algebra.
@@gking407 sure, thanks to me. There was a time when a lot of stupid ideologies were popular. Now you have a repeat:)
It really astonishes me how many don’t realize that is is 100% being taught to kids in grade school. It’s even in Canada!!!
Only made it like 30 mins into the discussion is the synopsis basically that Destiny and Riley would be fine with a watered down version of Critical Race Theory and AJC is basically correct when pointing out that at least a fair number of the people actually teaching the stuff have some crazy opinions?
That's pretty much the gist that I got lol
Is he correct in saying that though? I don't wanna take his word on it
@@ReddoFreddo yeah it feels like he is mischaracterizes the people he is 'quoting'. Also he criticize a BOOK for using personal stories while barely looking at any papers.
Crt is an irrational system divised to fight against an irrational system
I would go so far as to say you are mostly correct. Its more that he is saying 1 person who was foundational has bad ideas, and some proponents have cited the book she wrote. Destiny is mostly saying that viewing current curriculum from a different position would not be as harmful as AJC thinks.
It's not about whether you believe in this part or that part of CRT. The theory itself is fundamentally flawed. We don't teach the flat earth theory, or that the sun revolves around the earth for the simple reason that they have been debunked, as have the theories underlying CRT.
@@lance8163 Let's hope. Destiny is pretty smart, but he falls for a lot of mind traps.
So the Frankfurt School has been debunked? Quick someone tells Walter Benjamin and the lineal descendants of the enlightenment.
Cringe race theory.
This is the first time I've heard someone describe Critical Race Theory as a "conspiracy theory"
Well given that proponents of CRT emphasize personal experience to determine conclusions rather than empirical means suggests most CRT will be by definition conspiracy theories.
Sean was the only one prepared for the Debate on CRT. Just about every argument against him was garbage that provided nothing of substance. First Destiny wanted to Taki about foundation then realized he was our of his depth and wanted to talk implementation. Riley just wanted to act like it was no big deal without knowing what she was talking about.
He didn't really address any of their points about parts of it being valuable and its currently being progressed right now. I believe it was even compared to psychology in that regard. Sean seemed to only attack certain founders ideas. While the opposition was saying they believe they can and indeed are still being improved on.
@@qmanization2375 They didn't provide any of the "valuable parts."
@@nb4411 to be fair they didn't really get a chance to get there. They didnt really come off as strong I would just say Sean came off as attacking a point nobody was defending. It all felt confused
@@qmanization2375 Yeah it certainly was confused. Sean seemed prepared for the actual debate while Riley and Destiny tried turning it into something it wasn't.
@@nb4411 actually not really. Destiny tried to get directly to the point but Sean kept deflecting saying shit about the founders. Nobody looked good in that.
Destiny chat not knowing that maths is actually in accounting really shows they didn’t do accounting
They’re unaccountable
Riley's arguments were basically that leading and founding CRT scholars are not representative of CRT. Lol?
Or that Sean’s examples were not representative of their work?
Can’t move the goalposts if there are no goalposts to move 🤯
@@politicaltroll8920
Not true. Even Riley didn't argue that, she just said that they weren't representative. There was no discussion about AJW strawmanning those scholars.
@@limitedhangoutlive I thought sean did a great job of not getting derailed. I laughed when she asked him " who says that?" and he replied " the foundational people behind the whole damn thing" lol
You have to separate a theory from its founders. There are many people throughout history who have founded theories that are scientifically accepted to this day who also said very incorrect/misinformed things outside of that theory. Additionally, many theories can evolve over time such that the initial founders of said theories are no longer representative of what those theories stand for today. To criticize a theory you must criticize the principles of the theory, not the beliefs of its creator.
AJW kills it in this.
AJW with the win in this one. Weak sauce outing from destiny
alternate title: Destiny answers emails while listening to some randos talking about racism or some shit
Lol
What game is this?
Edit: it's the last spell
Actual Justice Warrior killed Destiny for real.
Debate James Lindsey about crt.
Literally who
@@JH-ci7gu do any of these people go through specific examples of implementation of CRT? This is all I care about.
@@JH-ci7gu I'm willing to look at it but not going to dig through hours of content to find it; not worth it if it's that inaccessible. I'll check it out later
@@JH-ci7gu also I thought evergreen taught multiple types of critical theory classes; why focus on CRT as the main issue? Can you really say that CRT is a bigger problem there than other critical theories?
@@JH-ci7gu okay ill look up an article but I'm not watching hours of content to find out about evergreen. Thanks for the info tho
sad to see destiny defend CRT
Why
Destiny is a bit of a contrarian so I'm not that surprised.
@@RandomAussieGuy87 It's not being contrarian It's understanding that things have nuance... I did like the example about psychology and how there were critics to Sigmund Freud. Shit nowadays anyone who says that they practice Freudian psychology you just look at them like they're an ancient dinosaur. Understanding that things are not what they were in the beginning that they can change and become more refined as time passes is actually one of the great things about what humans create.
@@Subrees because it's cancerous garbage
The debate tactics were on full display in this one from Destiny and Riley. And AJW crushed it 😂😂
Debate tactics like not just telling anecdotes for 20 minuttes?
Maybe your boy should ask for a lesson 😂😂 he could then atleast pretend to have any idea what he is talking about 🤷♂️
@@YoungGzBlitz They asked for examples?? You fell for a debate tactic haha Let me ask for specific examples, then make fun of him for giving examples and not speaking generally...
Top tier response, i love you for proving my point that fast hahaha
@@thetimssportstalk3160 the thing is, AJW didn't give examples of critical race theory teachings or what it entails, but rather unrelated stuff the scholars said (the aids thing). The closest he was to pointing out something relevant was the quote from Patricia (williams?) "a black doll was on discount proves white supremacy". He may be correct on that, but we would need to actually analize the words she wrote, as AJW proves time and time again he can interpret what he reads (for example, the research article he brought to a debate with Vaush on Trans issues which debunked what he was trying to prove, or in this very debate, how AJW failed to understand the point on the "in math, the most important thing is the journey, not the result", as he interprets it as either you chose the process or the accuracy, when it actually it means "if you understand the processes, you are able to get the results and critique them", not to mention you may get the correct result by chance...)
@@hugosilva400 AIDS thing was an example that a scholar used to prove an overall point of critical race theory. Most of their examples are that trash. The other was the black doll, or the black kid adoption. I’m sorry you don’t like the examples, but they come from a book that most CRT scholars call the seminal works of CRT. That’s the point of the examples leading to a more broad point.
As far as the math example. He accepted the point Destiny made, but if you had someone who showed their work 100 times, and always got the wrong answer, and then you had someone who never showed their work, but got the right answer 100 times in a row. Who’s the better mathematician? It’s important to show your work, but you eventually have to start getting the right answer before you are considered good at math. That’s why saying it’s not about the answer is a dumb thing to say.
@@thetimssportstalk3160 except no, the Aids thing is something that even AJW said it wasnt directly related to CRT, he only used it to claim that the CRT scholars use faulty reasoning to arrive to their conclusions. That is a dishonest tactic. The correct tactic would be to show a CRT example where such faulty reasoning is used. But he can't do it as he doesn't know what the fuck is actually taught in those courses, neither do I, but I didn't study a course in that field, like most people who go to university.
Also, did you really read my reply? Cuz I didn't say I didn't like the example of the black doll, quite the contrary, I said that was the strongest point AJW had going. If he can prove that point to be true, then I would grant him that CRT needs some reworking or reform. So, maybe in the spirit of the snarky response you tried to give, sorry you can't interpret text better than AJW does.
In regards to the math issue, you first agree with the point, and claim AJW even agreed with Destiny on it (which wasn't the point I was making, I was pointing out that AJW brought that up cuz he constantly misunderstands stuff, the reason why I'm skeptic on his black doll argument is for situations like this). But then you go ahead and make the same mistake he did, trying to say who is the better mathematician, the one who gets things right or the one who does the work but gets the result wrong. Again, that is not the point in the question being made, therefore the question you present is irrelevant. No one is asking to sacrifice accuracy for better methodology.
Patricia Williams is an advocate for CRT. She didn't fucking create it. This guy is so eager for a strawman. lol
Do any ebonics speakers even call it African American Vernacular English? It sounds like something a white middle to high class person would call it to me.
Those are the people that legitimized it. AAve as a concept really only blew up in the past 7-8 yrs after the Trayvon martin trial when his gf was barely understandable while being questioned
It's a moron term created by the radical Left to further push thier bs politics. No one that speaks it would call it that 😂
The point isnt that qualitative data is useless in every situation. The problem with CRT is that it places lived experiences over scientific data, and denying that lived experience is racist (essentially you are racist if you disagree with the person and you are non PoC, and if you are PoC, then you are enslaved to the system). CRT at its core came from the post modern movement, which created the useful tool of deconstruction. CRT assumes that our society is racist at its core, and when ever a situation arises CRT theorists assume racism was part of the situation.
Can you please reference, by name, a few papers utilising CRT as an analytical lens, because that's what's done with theories, showing that the lens applied entirely dismisses the hard data and facts within said paper? e.g. "We found that group x in this area got late diagnoses for disease y. According a CRT lens of analysis, none of this matters because the data is prejudiced by structures and should be dismissed outright." Because so far, I've found a paper on PubMed, dealing with actual medical outcomes for HIV testing, and that absolutely doesn't appear to be the case as the theory is merely used to explain *why* some groups got late testing and diagnosis.
AJW didn't provide arguments utilising academic studies and published papers showing the failings of CRT as an analytical tool. He basically provided off hand references to quotes within books (that are not academic papers undergoing review) and editorial screeds (that are also not papers undergoing review) from scholars on their "opinions". He conflated their prescriptive/idealised wants with how the theory is currently being utilised in academia. These are two very different things. This goes back to what Destiny keeps trying to explain to people. Complaining about Freud or Skinner having opinions doesn't negate the body of research utilising Psychoanalysis and Behaviourism as theoretical models.
Id like for destiny and AJW to do more debates. AJW is a very good debater and you can tell he really researches what it is he’s talking about. I’d say he’s close if not on destiny’s level rhetorically. He’s very convincing. And regardless of if you agree or disagree with CRT, he clearly won this debate IMO. Although he was debating Riley more than Destiny because destiny didn’t want to come off as dog piling on AJ. I want to see destiny and AJW 1 on 1 in future debates. I think that would be really informative and entertaining.
I think AJWs debate shtick is that he doesn't care about debates. That's why vaush made such a fool of himself in their debate, because sean just didn't bite and get angry. It's very powerful to appear as if you're not emotionally invested in what your opponent is saying.
@@luckierloser Yeah, AJW, to me, isn't a debate bro but a good debunker. He is great at analyzing things instead of using talking points.
@@luckierloser I think he very much does care about debates. That's something not to be confused with not being overly emotional.
A calm debate is a good debate, people screaming over each other often leads to irrational points and tangents.
@@JohnTitorrrrrr I mean I did say it's his shtick that he doesn't care. I obviously can't know if he secretly cares. But he has definitely said that he doesn't in the past.
Riley just concern trolls and never makes any actual arguments, infuriating
Damn Steven. You got Rekt. Pretty uncommon but wtf are you doing arguing pro this nonsense
He needs the BREAAAAAAAAD
@@Yuvraj. “Lmaoo” yea because 2v1 has kept destiny from making valid points in previous debates. Holy shit can you fangirl any harder?
Love how people on Destiny’s video resoundingly agree that Destiny got dumped on by AJW
Lol where
@@joelofori5565 Watch the video.
AJW seems to be the only one that is ready for this so called debate. Seems like the other two are just learning from his expertise on the subject matter.
Yeah that's what it tends to seem like when someone just makes up lies about one or two academics in an entire field of research in a live debate.
I'm not sure who riley is....... and I'm a big fan of destiny and when AJW doesn't sound very condescending I like his content too....... This was a good one should do more. I'm a little over an hour in and very impressed with AJW on this topic.
AJW is very condescending however I still enjoy his videos
Riley is a biological male that wants to be a woman. That's who Riley is.
What I want to know is, when Destiny states that even little things like teaching people about important women or black people in history, why is that CRT? Why isn't that just teaching history?
If a bunch of shitty people left out blacks or women in the history books, wouldn't teaching about those people who were left out just teaching proper history?
I've been thinking this for awhile, nice to see someone put it into clear words for me.
The central tenet of objecting to objective knowledge is
1. the claim that Science is a tool of the masters, which makes science, and mathematics racist.
2. Claiming that lived experience hold more validity over statistics, and disagreeing with that means you are racist.
AGREED @Jon
@@CambrianAnomalocaris Granted, not many people who have read that book understand the bulk of it.
@@CambrianAnomalocaris No shit, that thing is dense as all hell
A bit disappointing Destiny my man. It felt like you were trying really hard to just stick to your "side" on this one, making weak/disingenuous arguments. Oh well.
Hilarious to see all the cringey reactionaries whining in the comments as though AJW brought a full appraisal of CRT's application in academia, rather than anecdotal rhetoric from people writing books (that aren't peer reviewed academic entries) or editorial opinions. He was even asked, point blank, to provide evidence of how CRT, which is a theory that is used as a lens in academic research (where relevant), apparently avoids hard data and reality, and his response was that he didn't know. The entire debate was AJW appealing to anecdotes rather than how the framework is used. Because going back as far as 2004, an actual medical paper on HIV diagnosis had this theory utilised to understand certain number disparities, and no hard data was dumped out, avoided or excluded; the theory was merely used to analyse and understand why certain outcomes transpired. All this before half the cringe-lords on here were even cognisant apes capable of having their brains scrambled by Fox News pundits.
Sorry your favorite streamer didn't do well in an online conversation. I'm sure YOU, an obnoxious nobody, would have done much better.
Lol. Not a single argument or refutation between the two of you simpletons.
You do a great job of defending fascism. AJW could bring up Hitler and you would go "that's not theoretical fascism though".
It really seems that you and RGR were setting up an impossible burden to meet. By your arguments here you could justify any ideology or discipline on the basis that it contains “some good stuff”.
I agree. They also didn’t provide very much of the “good stuff” that was supposedly in CRT. Most of what was put forward by them fell in other fields like the history is subjective thing I.E. post-modernism. I couldn’t figure out what part of CRT they actually supported honestly.
Yeah exactly. Forgive the godwin's law but I'm sure that Nazism has at least one or two good things in it though I'm strangling to think of any at the moment. However just because it has those few good things doesn't mean I can't critique the thing as a whole. Those few good things can probably be found in other ideas and then we can safely toss Nazism in the trash. We can do the same for things like CRT.
Naziism caused the German economy to boom. Failing economies leads to widespread death and suffering.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!
Oh right, we actually wholesale adopted much of Nazi economics and bureacratic governance during the war.
How's that working out?
@@DylanYoung It didn't cause the economy to boom, at least not in a meaningfull way. What the nazi party did is switch to a wartime economy, with forced labour, while pushing women out of the labour force for child bearing, while this leads to a higher employment and can seem like an improvement, it's more like tearing your house(economy) down to build weapons and make a fire, so that you can conquer another house.
the good stuff is the fact that you include race in the equation. without it, any analysis is really odd. intersectional analysis (which i am a wholehearted supporter of) was borne directly out of CRT. Remember: CRT is only applied to CIVIL RIGHTS! They also usually use very seemingly random and detached words. For example objectivism refers to objectivism in critical theory rather than the more accepted version.
Riley is not very good on this CRT debate, just fell down right out of the gate.
Anyone else think her voice sounds a lot like destiny's
Sounds like Riley Dennis.
really bad debate, no one even spoke to what CRT was or any of the points within it. instead they just went back and forth over a few advocates of CRT
I think they agreed that CRT was based on solipsysm; interpretations of lived experiences told through mythology. It is inherently subjective, therefore no definition can be excluded. You could literally compare CRT to Naziism and CRT advocates wouldn't be able to refute any specific claim.
They are not just "advocates", they created the thing. Destiny and Riley didn't even contest this other than to say "just because a discipline starts out awful doesn't mean it'll remain awful."
Sean's point is that though this is true, past disciplines that improved could be challenged and criticized to get better, whereas CRT is SPECIFICALLY designed to not be challenged.
Bad take. Sean was right on the money and was speaking about CRT's foundational material. Calling the founding academics "a few advocates" is like calling Karl Marx just one of "a few advocates" of Marxism.
Weren't they talking about the founders of the theory? Like looking at Einstein's math when talking about general relativity.
@@Ridistrict No, Sean wasn't right, cuz Shaun didn't bring up stuff related to what those scholars teach or write in regards to CRT, but rather tangential stuff, like the AIDS is used by the government conspiracy. What he did is called character assassination, where, instead of tackling the argument at hand, he brings up wrong stuff the other person did and conflates it with the argument. It would be like me saying all the work a Nobel prized Dr did was awful because now said doctor is an antivax. No, he is wrong on the antivax, but the work he did that got him the award is still good.
Actual Justice Warrior cites numerous examples from the literature. Others say nuhuh and Destiny says facts aren't real.
You don't need extremist neomarxist ideology to teach kids about racism. Parebts have done it since time immemorial.
It’s called not taking the bait.
No need to follow him into the weeds of this or that uncharitable quote
@Nick Bacigalupo Imagine if you said all of psychology is bunk because Freud said some crazy shit about how we all want to fuck our moms.
That's how bad AJWs argument is.
@@Axxilles
No no it's Nazism is bad because it's heavily race base, with bad history. Methodology. Dismisses scrutiny because the dissent was from a Jew.
Freudianism has also, not without irony, been used to effect countless abuses against children, as has "psychology" more generally. If you're unfamiliar with the history of psychology as a mechanism of oppression, i recommend Foucault. For more modern examples, take a look at a contemporary psycho-marketing course, or look at the SPARS scenario that was run recently.
@Nick Bacigalupo The reason we don't have sources is because, honestly, none of us give a fuck about this complete non issue you guys obsess over to manufacture outrage.
Critical race theory is just a way of examining out government and society for both conscious and subconscious and unintended racial discrimination.
Should we teach every single piece of work of every seminal proponent of it suggests to twelve year olds? No. Could it be a useful tool to help young people be more aware of the subconscious biases we have in our society? Absolutely.
Frankly, this is a fake issue for conservative content creators to milk outrage and clicks with, and it's BORING. And that's why they didn't come prepared to debunk every minute criticism and straw man AJW wanted to make about CRT: because it's a boring non-issue.
Imagine thinking that black people are refusing to learn proper English on any real scale. It's just not a real problem, get over it!
This was a confusing debate, in that it seemed the pro CRT side seemed to spend more time asking AJW to give them good things about CRT instead of listing them themselves.
It appeared as though they did not do as thorough a job of researching the topic and then were left asking AJW to give them points that then they could argue with.
It was a strange one.
That's the whole CRT grift in a nutshell.
I mean, he literally brought up positive takes on some issues, AJW just didn't reply besides asserting the whole thing has no merit and one particular figure in it said some dumb stuff. It didn't really feel like AJW had anything he was willing to engage with apart from the handful of talking points he continued to return to.
Just remember kids, if you can’t cite a specific study…just say, “The body of literature supports my position.’ 😂😂
*RIGHT INTO MY FEED BAYBEE* 😍
Most people today do not know much about CRT, however, it has been around since the 70s but for whatever reason has only gotten popular now.
The issue is that most people do not know the core issue with this theory. Is that evidence and objectivity is deemed irrelevant in this theory. This theory also directly challenges the core concept of liberalism and the idea of having a society as a melting pot. It is completely different at the core compared to something like a racial biased theory. People often confused the two.
Farber, Daniel A.; Sherry, Suzanna (1997). Beyond All Reason: The Radical Assault on Truth in American Law. Oxford University Press. pp. 5, 9-11, 58, 118-119, 127. ISBN 978-0195355437.
Posner, Richard A. (October 13, 1997). "The Skin Trade" (PDF). The New Republic. Vol. 217 no. 15. pp. 40-43. Archived from the original (PDF) on October 5, 2016
Pyle, Jeffrey (May 1, 1999). "Race, Equality and the Rule of Law: Critical Race Theory's Attack on the Promises of Liberalism". Boston College Law Review. 40 (3): 787-827.
But you're throwing out the baby with the bath water! What baby? Still waiting on that part...
(Writing this comment when I'm only a tiny bit into the debate, so if this question is answered in there feel free to ignore me lol)
You mention about it rejecting objectivity and evidence. I read through the Wikipedia article about it a while ago and it does talk about "storytelling", I assume this is what you are referring to? It doesn't seem like the only aspect of it though, I'm not gonna pretend to know what things like "structural determinism" mean lol but it sounds like there is more too it than *just* people talking about their personal experience.
@@pointlesstwat8927 CRT focuses on subjective truth instead of objective truth. Which can be very dangerous.
Will L you said that in your OP, I meant "more specifically". A quick read of the wiki page doesn't seem to suggest it only cares about subjective things.
@@pointlesstwat8927 The wiki specifically said that it doesn't care about evidence or fact and is more of a story telling.
The wiki words are much more harsh than what I used. However, either way, CRT is not what a sane person would use.
Destiny reluctantly arguing for the pro CRT position is super cringe. CRT is anti-liberal, its proponents admit it themselves. Thus, Omniliberalism is a meme, not a principled position.
Sean with the well reasoned takes, nice to see
I’m conservative but I think Destiny is an interesting dude with interesting things to say which is why i keep coming back here.
Cool. Glad to have ya.
Same. I actually watch him more than just about any political streamer, even though I’m probably further right than most of his viewers (not far right though). But I do think his more right leaning fan base is growing. Which is nice. Feels less circle jerky now. I think it’s good that the political diversity of his fan base is expanding.
>conservative
>jimmy dore pfp
>horseshoe is real
samesies
@Troll Bait It will be so sweet the day a large streamer who's super familiar with his parlor tricks catches him off guard and dresses him down infront of his entire audience. Hoping Destiny finally has a enough and takes care of business, but so far he seems to still handle Vaush with some semblance of kid gloves. Would LOVE to see someone like Nick Fuentes sneak in and get the drop on him during a livestream lmao. Say what you want about his politics but that kid is a black belt in Vaushes BS.
Destiny comparing CRT to psychology is terrible, since we don't teach psych to children. There are certain topics that are too complex for children to understand and teaching them could do more harm than good.
You don't seem to understand how metaphors work. It doesn't have to be equivalent in every way, just in the way that the point he's making matters.
And the point he's making is that a theory is more than just everything that everyone who says they're taking about a certain theory has ever said about it ever.
@@Axxilles
Except when you see them go about it, it's just racism with them using white people as their windmill.
Also this bugs me. 'Theory' as though it's a proven method with hard data backing it. Its moreso thought or a hypothesis.
To be fair, Sigmund Freud was a delusional cocaine addict who spent a fair bit of time telling people he was a genius.
The comparison is terrible because he doesn't understand enough about psych to realize that we've literally integrated like 90% of Freud's findings as granted
I took psychology in grade school. What kind of poor education did you receive and why do you wish to inflict it on others?
Destiny really knows nothing about mathematics LOL.
Calculus isn’t even close to being high level. It doesn’t even reach basic level math. If anything is considered basic level math it’s probably Differential Equations or Real Analysis. High level math would probs be Von Neuman Algebras, Operator Theory, Symplectic Geometry, etc
NO KIDDING! you mean the dictionary now caters to left wing ideology and changes their entries to bolster the left wing view?
Destiny is painfully naive on CRT and he doesn't have a clue about what the ramifications of CRT are. Luckily he'll live to see the day when somebody blames their obesity on Christopher Columbus.
In case anyone is wondering, the reason Destiny didn’t push back much was because he didn’t wanna dogpile AJW. This was supposed to be a 2v2 but the other girl bailed out due to a family emergency.
Edit: The TikTok girl is actually a leftist, my bad. I was just restating was Destiny said on stream, sorry for the misinformation.
Huh? The other girl is a huge lefty, what're you talking about?
@@Kow8675309 I’m pretty sure the TikTok girl was supposed to be a conservative, am I wrong?
@@hexenringe9030 check out her twitter where she's criticizing republicans and retweeting AOC. She's on the left, so your criticism makes no sense.
mobile.twitter.com/HammettVictoria
@@Kow8675309 Ok, first of all, my statement is not a criticism of anything. I thought that the TikTok girl was supposed to be a conservative, because on stream Destiny said he was gonna debate a “TikToker conversation girl”.
@@Kow8675309 While she is a lefty, it seems he initially thought she was right-leaning to add more balance in the perspectives as it would be really odd to have a 3v1 debate. Destiny has criticized dogpiling in the past, so it would make sense that he did not put much pressure on Sean in the discussion.
Wow those two CRT apologists are rubbish. Destiny even calls CRT a 'lens' to view situations. Yeah - so when a problem arises this political ideology CRT asserts the cause is racism. When viewed objectively, by scientists or any studies that involve actual effort and can't find said racism, then CRT proponents claim that objectivity is racist too and deny the work. That is why this is a political ideology and not a serious field of study.
POV: Destiny organizes his porn folder