How do non-binary people navigate gendered language?

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  • Опубліковано 20 гру 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 37

  • @RheaDawnLanguage
    @RheaDawnLanguage  Рік тому +56

    I’ve noticed this video is getting a fair amount of attention from people who are opposed to the idea of nonbinary identities. If you want to argue about that, go somewhere else. A few disrespectful and hostile comments have been left which I have removed. Comments of this kind are not only unnecessary but also harmful, and will be removed as soon as I see them. I will not allow hate to fester anywhere near this channel.

    • @Kurotae
      @Kurotae Рік тому

      @@sminchan3732leave them alone

    • @Idkpleasejustletmechangeit
      @Idkpleasejustletmechangeit 11 місяців тому +12

      Clicks on video about language surrounding non-binary people -> Gets angry about seeing/hearing non-binary people

    • @RheaDawnLanguage
      @RheaDawnLanguage  11 місяців тому +12

      @@Idkpleasejustletmechangeit Literally tho. I genuinely think UA-cam just recommended this video to a heap of people who would hate it, just cuz they’re the crowd most likely to interact with it :/

  • @amadeosendiulo2137
    @amadeosendiulo2137 8 місяців тому +6

    11:12 In Polish, there is the masculine word "sekretarz" which is "secretary" (of the state, of a club etc.) and the feminine "sekreterka" which means "female personal assistant". It's because bosees were usually male and assistents female.
    Esperano, an artificial language created in the end of the 19th century, used to be gendered if it comes to words for people. Most roots were masculine by default, For example aktoro, instruisto, italo, esperantisto were masculine and aktorino, instruistino, italino, esperantistino, were feminine, these are actor, teacher, Italian and Esperantist respectively. The strangest example being "viro" meaning "man" and "virino" meaning "woman". And animal names being like bovo = a head of cattle, virbovo = bull, bovino = cow. Please notice that all nouns end in -o. Thankfully, other parts of speech (apart for personal pronouns) are not gendered.
    While all of the above is still correct in contemporary standard Esperanto, occupation names are now neutral and the "-ino" ending is not required (I talked with an older Esperantist displeased that he saw a female writer described as the "aŭtoro" of the book insted of "aŭtorino"). Sadly, it doesn't applie to family member names (patro = father, patrino = mother) and the status of "amiko", "friend", I do not understand, as I think that it is neutral now, but derived from it "koramikino" = girlfriend and "koramiko" = boyfriend (literally: heart friend) seem to still be gendered. There is a special prefix ge- that can be used in plural only and means "of the both genders", so gekoramikoj could mean "a pair of lovers" or just a group of girlfriends and boyfriends, "gepatroj" means "parents" etc.
    But having described the standard Esperanto now and then I can now say what some of us young Esperanto speakers do with the language. Firstly, a thing most important in the context of the video, we use the -ipo ending for non-binary people (aktoripo, patripo, koramikipo etc.). Secondly, we use "ri" as a gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun along with the standard masculine "li" and feminine "ŝi" (which is just like the English "she"). Unless one prefers it, we don't reffer to people with the pronoun "ĝi" which is used for objects and animals. Some of us use the prefix "ge-" in both singular and plural in the changed meaning "of any gender" to make it clear that we mean a gender-neutral word: "gekoramiko", "gepatro" etc. Some of us use the unofficial noun ending -iĉo which is a masculine version of -ino and the unofficial -ipo. It comes from the diminutive ending ~ĉjo pararel to the feminine ~njo and the unofficial enbie ~pjo (which is used by Esperanto speaking enbies for example in usernames). In a perfect world "-iĉo" wouldn't be needed, but we use it so patrino and patriĉo are equal. It is also useful if it is useful if one wants to emphasise that someone is male. And I prefer "boviĉo" to "virbovo". I am extreme to the point that I try to avoid the word "viro" alltogether, at least online.

  • @Idkpleasejustletmechangeit
    @Idkpleasejustletmechangeit 11 місяців тому +7

    I just wrote a very long comment about how what there currently is in German is bad and a rough concept I made about how I'd like to just completely remove grammatical gender from the language. Then I was foolish enough to turn on my device's stand by mode or whatever that's called, not realising that youtube would likely crash when I turned it on again. I wrote an entire essay length comment and put it into neat little paragraphs, only for it to vanish. If anyone is interested, then please ask and I may get motivated to write my thoughts down again. It's not really anything like the more mainstream things. I just took inspiration from English and went with it.

    • @amu2354
      @amu2354 11 місяців тому

      I’m interested! I’m learning German on the side, and finding it crazy how identifying titles (not sure if it’s only profession related?) are gendered. On top of pronouns you’re either a Lehrer or Leherin, Arzt or Ärztin, Student oder Studentin. Not all the masculine titles have the same ending so it doesn’t seem like as easy a fix as Spanish has

  • @kialburg
    @kialburg 6 місяців тому +2

    I think the interesting thing about non-binary adoption of "they" pronouns is that it's actually introducing gender agreement in verbs, which English has never had before. Since "he/she/it" have a different conjugation from "they". So, in a way, non-binary or gender-fluid language conventions can be said to be hyper-gendering English, instead of de-gendering it.

    • @RheaDawnLanguage
      @RheaDawnLanguage  6 місяців тому +1

      I don’t think there’s necessarily any intention of “de-gendering” in the first place to be honest, I guess adding more ways to accomodate gender is “hypergendering” haha.
      I don’t think it’s really adding gender agreement, because the singular use of “they” still grammatically treats the person like plural. In my opinion it’s a semantic change in the use of “they” rather than a grammatical change…but I guess the line is pretty blurry.

    • @kialburg
      @kialburg 6 місяців тому +2

      @@RheaDawnLanguage good point. When I wrote the comment I wasn't considering that people who use "they" pronouns don't use plural verbs when they're referred to by name in third-person.

  • @-homechord-2908
    @-homechord-2908 Рік тому +10

    Dope vid Rhea!
    Your 'ella' pronunciation is spot on don't sweat. You'd fit right in on the streets of Madrid! You might get some funny looks in Argentina though (esha instead of ehya) or in regional/rural Spain/SA (ejja instead of ehya)
    Also funnily enough! You had 'bad boy' = 'chico malo' but spanish has this weird thing where you can swap noun-adjective order if you're speaking more figuratively. Eg male chique = figuratively/subjectively bad kid, but chique male = literally/objectively bad kid. Interesting hey?
    Oh yeah it's 'lateen-ex' but what is much more common in the enby circles I've seen is defo latine (pron latin-ay when I'm speaking English and latin-eh when I'm speaking Spanish).
    Omg welsh straight after Spanish omg I feel so seeeeeeeeeeeeen.
    No but also tangentially there's some interesting things about how people pronounce Spanish words in English vs Spanish vs spanglish/espanglish. I will link a vid on it from superholly in a min, along with her really good vid on a Mexican first nation language called nawatl.
    Oof re Russia big F poor buggers.
    Go feminists go!!1!1
    Slight critique on the Spanish pronunciation of hombre/mujer públic@ (not because I think you should have known or anything ridiculous like that but because ooh noo the spanch special interest trap card activated and now I must MONOLOGUE.
    in Spanish, you always default to having the second last syllable be the stressed syllable (is this the same in English? I'm actually not sure and think it isn't?!?) EXCEPT when there's an accent marker. And that's what the accent markers are for! To be like 'yo this word is stressed weird heads up!'
    So 'públique' is pronounced 'PÚBlique' rather than 'púbLIque' as it would be without the accent.
    Right lemmie go find you those superholly linguistics vids.
    Rawr I love spansh so much omg. But no unironically thank u for the dope vid. Nice to see someone talking about something that I have found fairly difficult to navigate over the years hahaha.

    • @-homechord-2908
      @-homechord-2908 Рік тому +5

      Oh yes and I used the @ symbol in there as a stand in for o/a - did you know that that's something else people are using in online spaces? Because the @ symbol is like an a and an o in one? But it's used more in the 'gender is unknown' way that they is used rather than the 'this person is nonbinary' way.

    • @-homechord-2908
      @-homechord-2908 Рік тому +1

      Superholly on spanglish: ua-cam.com/video/2SYio0mbDUw/v-deo.html
      Superholly on nahuatl: ua-cam.com/video/YY9qjqMdUDs/v-deo.html
      It is Cool Stuff™ 😊

    • @Nooticus
      @Nooticus Рік тому +3

      Yay!! Another Rhea commenter with comments as long as mine!! I feel seen :)

    • @qyxgames
      @qyxgames 11 місяців тому

      In Spanish you don't default stress to the penultimate syllable. For example, matiz doesn't have an accent mark but its an "aguda" word

  • @lenarosic
    @lenarosic Рік тому +5

    Slavic grammar:
    Gendered noun/gendered pronoun + gendered verb + gendered adjetives + gendered number (or color - when used as adjetive).
    Slavic grammar cases:
    Nominative
    Genitive
    Dative
    Acusative
    Vocative
    Instrumental
    Lokative
    Side note: some of the grammar cases may have different title among Slavic languages but how they are use is very similar.

  • @princess_haze
    @princess_haze 11 місяців тому +4

    In french we have iel (combination of the masculine il and feminine elle) as a gender neutral pronoun. It's not widely used yet as far as I know, but it still has a bit more recognition than some lesser known neopronouns like ol. Although sadly iel is mostly known because of how much conservatives talk about it.
    But since we have gendered adjectives we don't have a simple solution to get rid of gendered terms or to invent new ones. For example petit becomes petite in feminine form, but the only difference in pronunciation is that the final consonant is pronounced when it's feminine. So we can't just invent a new gender neutral ending that works for every word. Some words gain new forms but it's a case by case solution. Switching between feminine and masculine could be a way of signifying gender neutrality but it's not a perfect solution.
    Anyway good video! It's very interesting to see how people come up with solutions to invent words that are needed even when the language itself doesn't really cooperate.

  • @Nomyriad
    @Nomyriad 11 місяців тому +4

    this was a really cool glimpse into the challenges and progress of updating language for non-binary inclusivity !

  • @taschloraslivanouxanthadakri
    @taschloraslivanouxanthadakri 11 місяців тому +3

    Thank you so much for this video! It's so important to fight this typical eurocentric image that binary is some kind of an "innate norm"
    I just want to add some notes, as a native Russian enby :3 (and yeaaaah, Russia IS a shitass place for us :)
    I think here the most commonly used and natural way for most people is using the plural suffixes for gender-neutral speech. So, for example, to express "I've gone to the shop and bought some bread", I would say "Я пошли в магазин и купили хлеба" (I go-past-plural to the shop and buy-past-plural bread); or "I thought" is "Я думали" ("I think-past-plural"). This is a somewhat novel way of saying it (I think it came about in the 2010's), but there's a similar natural construction where the plural is used in third person when the gender of the individual is unknown or unimportant. So that would be like "тебе звонили (to you call-past-plural)" - "somebody called you"; even though obviously it's just one person calling, people naturally use the plural form and everybody's okay with it. So this "plural = enby" thing is like one of the least unnatural of all options.
    However, just like other commenters have noted, there're a lot of words that take gender in Russian and whole sentences also have to agree in gender, so sometimes it IS quite awkward (like trying to figure out when somebody is talking about themselves/just one enby person and when are they actually talking about a group of people). For me personally, it's often confusing to constantly think about how to construct this kind of "enby plural" so I also use other genders (at least before I get used to the plural form).
    And yeah, for many people alternatively using he/she also works, and there's also "it". The last one is a bit unusual to use for people but I do know some people who use it.
    It would be really interesting to see something about the historical languages of the communities with nonbinary genders, so for example maybe like the American or Indian languages, how did they use their language to treat these genders and so on.
    P.S. I've never heard anyone say "я думахши" and it doesn't even sound like a real thing, I'm not sure about that one (?)
    upd: also want to add that in Russian "oni" (they) is the only "genderless" pronoun so it makes perfect sense that people turn to it when for gender-inclusive speech. Also there's a T/V distinction, so when we want to be polite we address a single person using second-person plural, which is also genderless. So we're kinda lucky, and I can assume that for languages that don't have such features already, using gender-inclusivity would be the ultimate challenge.

    • @RheaDawnLanguage
      @RheaDawnLanguage  11 місяців тому +2

      I believe I read думахши on some English article about Russian enbies, I just assumed it was accurate :/
      thank you so much for all the information!!! this is such an awesome perspective to have under this video :)

    • @RheaDawnLanguage
      @RheaDawnLanguage  11 місяців тому +1

      also I really did want to include a section on how more traditional or endangered languages deal with nonbinary gender. It seems like it would be a really interesting intersection of tradition and modernity in the realm of linguistics, but unfortunately I was unable to find anything on it :( I included something similar with Cornish but it wasn’t really what I’d intended

  • @izimations
    @izimations Рік тому +4

    My native language is Bengali, all the Bengali dialects and "dialects" don't have gender other than Chittagonian which has retained gendered Pronouns.
    So i was wondering in languages like hindi who have a gendered binary and when you speak you ahve to speak either as a "purush" or a "stree" how would a non-binary talk in hindi? then i realised south asian soceity has 3 genders Pung Linga (Masculine/male), Stree Linga (Femenine/Female), And Tritiya Libga ("3rd Gender"/Intersexual), And from what ive experienced, Members of the tritiya linga use either one.

  • @ArtMares91
    @ArtMares91 Рік тому +6

    I love this but I'm dying so hard at you pronouncing Latinx as "la-tinks" I'm gonna hear that from now on 😂 It's usually pronounced "latin-x" but even within the community it's debated if it's even a word. Personally I don't mind I usually use Latin@ but I'm liking Latine more and more.

  • @CowboysInKilts
    @CowboysInKilts 9 місяців тому

    I should also clarify that I do not identify with any political or religious labels, ideologies, or agendas. I maneuver through legal systems to achieve equal rights for everyone. I comment here based only on my personal experiences in numerous other countries and a desire to help. Culture shock can be brutal and impacts every aspect of your identity. I have never comfortably integrated into a foreign culture in less than three months.

  • @Nooticus
    @Nooticus Рік тому +4

    uploaded 1 minute ago hehe im your BIGGEST fan!!
    but i do have a strict compulsion to only watch my subscription box in order… so ill get back to this video in a few days lol!

  • @pennyexplains
    @pennyexplains Рік тому +3

    Just subbed, cant wait to see so much more!

  • @madscientistme
    @madscientistme Рік тому +4

    Keep at it 😊

  • @Kurotae
    @Kurotae Рік тому +3

    Your voice is so calming and is awesome!❤😅you’re the best! Keep it up :3

  • @lenarosic
    @lenarosic Рік тому +4

    Trivia fact: Slavic languages are hardcore gendered languages. There is no THEY/THEM as singular form. Even though there IS gender neutral form ONO/TO (it) its used only for babies, animal cubs and objects. For people and adult animals its either HE and SHE. Not only nouns and pronouns, but also ending of adjetives and verbs (in many tenses)...even numbers! Plus Slavic languages have from 6 to 7 grammar case, which further make it impossible to form THEY/THEM.
    This means for Slavic language speakers they (both natives and those who learn it as second language) who are bon-binary that they can:
    Stick to biological sex
    Use the opposite gender
    Switch between HE and SHE

    • @vuko6186
      @vuko6186 11 місяців тому +2

      Some of slavic non-binary ppl use the neutral gender (ONO/TO that you mentioned)

  • @Nooticus
    @Nooticus Рік тому +1

    ok hi I've watched it now!
    firstly, its literally crazy how many people on social media are still INSISTENT that 'they' is only plural, its crazy. a few days ago someone responded to me saying that non-binary people are mentally unwell because they think they're two people... 😭🤦‍♂
    NOOOOO im pretty sure its not pronounced 'Latincks' haha! its pronounced Latin-ex !! haha
    The way that they fast-forwaded in time the gender-neutral pronouns from PIE into Cornish is so fricking cool omg
    WHY ARE YOU APOPGISING FOR THE RAMBLING?! it couldve been 4 times as long and i still wouldve loved it!

  • @CowboysInKilts
    @CowboysInKilts 9 місяців тому

    I respect a person's non-binary identification and modifying my usage of English to respect that identification. However, I've lived in Spain and speak Spanish which, like most languages, requires a radical or impossible modification of a language and entire cultures in order to accommodate non-binary identification. Anyone who is non-binary needs to understand why their desire to modify entire languages to accommodate their identity is never going to occur and is perceived as grossly insulting and arrogant. All U.S. citizens are expected to integrate into foreign cultures. This expectation has nothing to do with gender identity. Foreigners, especially U.S citizens, are expected to respect the sovereignty of a non-english speaking host country. If you are non-binary I strongly urge you not to request anyone in another country alter their behavior to accommodate you. U.S. citizens alter our behavior to accommodate them, their language, culture, and identity. U.S. citizens are already perceived as imperialistic, invasive, arrogant, and/or generally offensive.

    • @Nooticus
      @Nooticus 6 місяців тому

      bro is talking fluent YAPanese jesus man be quiet

  • @thaumiel2013
    @thaumiel2013 Рік тому +8

    Ignore all the shitty people, your work is great, also good video

  • @prestigeflightyoutube
    @prestigeflightyoutube Рік тому +4

    Very interesting video, I just subscribed your channel. Keep it up