Mr. Lewis, thank you for taking your time to show your craft. You aren't required to show how you make scales, etch the blades, or anything else for that matter. I greatly appreciate the fact that you choose to. It's a shame there are so many criticisms and so few thank you's. Thank you for all of your videos and I sincerely hope you keep sharing.
It all makes perfect sense Lewis. It was a stroke to apply an acid like vinegar without chewing up your razor with a more intense bath like I use with Sterling Silver which is 8 parts water to 1 part Nitric Acid. Lewis, your craftsmanship is a joy to examine. I also understand how the quenching oil would alter the etch by the hardening differential and leave such wonderful subtle patterns. I will be looking for anything that you post Lewis. Thank you for sharing you knowledge and skill. T.
Thank you very much for the constructive critique and helpful advice. This was one of my early videos. I have improved my audio and video and since then. I have learned a lot since making my early videos. I look back now and think I can not believe I made that. Thanks again for advice.
FYI another great way to do this is just buy a bottle of PCB / Circuitboard etchant. You can get them at most electronics stores for 3 to 10 bucks. I prefer it because I can just paint some nail polish over the bevel (because I prefer to not subject the sharpened area to anything acidic) and brush the etchant onto the blade for a couple minutes, then rinse it off and scrape off the polish with an old credit card or whatever. Quick, dark, and even patina... you dont have to sharpen off a weakened cutting edge afterwards.. Afterwards I give it a lighter scrub with soap (lighter than you did) but toss it in the tumbler with the nailpolish still on the end for a short amount of time. it will give the fake patina a nice soft glow look which is pretty cool.
That is an inforative video. It is amazing how many different ways there are to do things, and get similar results. I have been paranoid about putting my blade in contact with the bottom of the pan with the heating element right underneath it, that is why I used a seperate container. You showed me it could be done with no harm to the temper, Thanks.
Thank you for all the instruction! I am new to bladesmithing, and I am trying different finishing techniques. I like the look of this hot vinegar etching.
BTW speaking of razor blades, you can use plain old single edge razor blades to experiment on ...it is carbon steel and takes a bluing so it is good for trial and error before you do it on an item you care about....btw I am probably one of the very few folks that actually resharpen disposal razor blades for my utility box cutter knives ... takes just a minute and then is pretty much good as new ...kind of silly since I have a whole box of new blades, but it just my thrifty side shining through ...I just enjoy restoring things back to usable
Acid etching is also important for some ornamental blade steels when used in a process like pattern wielding in order to display the contrast between different alloys that have been welded together.
@ScottsUtubeWorld Yes, you are right, room temp vinegar and a longer period of time will also make a nice patina. The room temperature vinegar is a lot less aggressive etch. Most of the plain carbon steel blades that I make are tempered in 350 - 400 degree range. The temperature of the boiling vinegar is around 213 degrees, so it will not affect the temper of the blade.
Lemon juice works well also, I have blacked all of my carbon steel pocked knives this way. And you dont have to stink up the house with boiling vinegar. Just stick the blades in a lemon overnight and lightly buff with fine steel wool. Dont forget to oil.
There is that very simple test you know. . .applying a match to the gas of a tiny scrap of steel to see if it 'pops' on ignition. I was only curious about the gas because of my experience with Nitric. Thanks again Lewis!
Try adding a small amount of dish soap. It makes sure that the surface is uniformly contacted by the acid. I think you'll find a better result and a need to repeat the process and remove the black coating fewer times. I've made a few clay-tempered blades with a hamon and it helps.
Try using straight Anti-Freeze (Not 50-50 mix), such as you put in your car radiator. I do this as my quenching process from red hot. Same anti rust properties, but leaves an eerie green and blue sheen permanently on the blade.
If you use 50/50 peroxide and vinegar you don’t need to apply heat. The mix is exothermic aka it heats its self. The peroxide increases the aggressiveness of the vinegar. Works fast and gives a nice etch.
I was talking about the oil I used to quench the blade during heat-treat. My video "Razor Making Overview, From Start To Shaving " at 23:55 shows what I was talking about. I had the blade red hot and dipped the blade portion of the razor in oil to harden it, the handle portion went into the oil a few seconds later. The handle did not get as hard as the blade. You can see the transition between the hard and softer areas around the handle - blade transition. The vinegar etch makes this show up.
taken a look at some of ya past work & WOWs the only way of putting your truly outstanding beautiful work/craftsmanship cant wait to see more Thank you for letting me take a peek Sir
The advantages are nearly all cosmetic. The surface is a little more stain resistant with a patina, but not much. I use the process for cosmetic reasons, I like the look of it.
thanks for the help!it wasn't working because the blade i used was stainless my mistake, but i tried it with some O-1 and it worked just fine! ~Brandon
you can get a really nice etch if you dip it in the vinegar for 2 sec. and then in cold water for 2 sec and then you don't have to get rid of the black film stuff.
Ever try it with horseradish or mustard? You can paint it onto a carbon blade and create whatever pattern you wish, even a faux damascus pattern. If you don't like it, you can polish it off and start over.
@lewisrazors Thanks man. I've made a few, but they've all been single radius grind with a 10" wheel. They work well enough I suppose but they are on the heavy side. I may try your method with a full hollow next. Razors are a whole new world from knives. They really seem to hone your skills.
another great video.. i used to want to get into making custom razors... but i don't think i could match or better your artistic eye for it... hope you are doing well... thanks for posting the lesson.
@ArtistBlade1972 Yes I do some full hollows but not a lot of them. I tend to grind the area by the edge with a 6 or 8 wheel, then hollow out the belly area with a 4 wheel, then use a 2 or 1 1/4 by the spine. I then blend all of the grinds/grooves together with the smallest wheel that I used, then hand sand. I do all the work with a single wheel. Full hollows are a lot more work than a single radius grind.
Mirror polish knives theoretically have flatter surfaces on a microscopic level, and therefore have less surface area for corrosion to occur on as well as likely having lower drag coefficients than those with less smooth finishes. A lot of people don't like them though because fingerprints and other smudges are more visible on them and tools inherently vulnerable to corrosion like some tool steels will likely benefit more from an anti-corrosion coating.
Thanks for the response, helped to find out your process as well as others. For anyone out there curious for a 1 off name etch or similar Nail Polish will work as a screening agent. Cheers from John.
Very high carbon steel used in some knives can be up to 2%, while normal high carbon steel would be 1%. This is by weight, so it will appear larger in volume, as iron is heavier, more dense actually, than carbon. The carbon in the steel has to go somewhere when the iron is dissolved by the acid. The dark material may be other metals in the alloy too, ones that don't react quickly with the acetic acid in vinegar. Metal blades can also be etched with salt water and a battery hooked to the + side.
The last few seconds of the video appear to indicate that he was etching the blade to reveal the internal structure of the metal after he had tempered the blade. The metal forms crystals who's shape and size define its strength and hardness.
The carbon content does not seem to affect it much. But different alloys do make a big difference, I usually test on scrap if I try a new type of steel.
It depends on the look you are going after. Sometimes I will do a quick 5 minute dip, other times I will leave it in 30 minutes or longer. I check the progress when I clean off the black build-up. I wish I had a more definite answer but I do not.
I know a couple people have already said it but the breathing really does take away from an otherwise excellent video. Either keep the microphone a little farther away from your mouth or put tissues, a sock or some piece of cloth over the microphone as a filter to get that noise out.
I did not reheat the vinegar. The insulated mug does a pretty good job of keeping it warm. It is not really boiling, what you are seeing is the bubbles coming off of the metal as it etches.
Thank you, Yes I made the razors on my website. The prices vary a lot depending on work involved and materials. I sell my work through Straight Razor Designs.
I would worry a bit about using boiling vinegar. Some of my knife instructions state that the knives shouldn't be washed in dishwashers... so I wonder if boiling might change the temper. I put a beautiful, deep petina on a Mora knife by letting it sit in room temperature vinegar for about 24 hours. And like you, I wiped the film off periodically. Cheers.
find out what your metal has in it! like Lewis said, high carbon will take a patina very well. Stainless wont work, and even a lighter carbon base like D2 may have a little issue. i've done it cold with dotted paper soaked in vinegar to make a pattern on D2, it just takes longer.
Lewis awesome video simplistic very easy to follow I really enjoyed the video. Ive been making razors for a little over a year nothing to special. I have some w2 I will have to try alot easier than acid like feric cloride. thanks kellyw
great video thanks...i have a suggestion though its not meant to sound rude...you can slightly hear your breathing in the background...there should be some sort of noise cancellation option in whatever sound program you use or voice/video capture software ur using. Often when people have a rly good mic u can hear things like breathing or mouth movement. Just thought u might not know we can even hear it. Anyway loved the video thanks:)
Nice vid. I use muriatic acid for this (sold in certain hardware stores for cleaning cement, etc.), it works in just a few minutes, I heat it up to 115 degrees F on a hot pad, but that may be too dangerous for some people, and vinegar is cheaper and more easily sourced. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, lots of guys want to hide their knowledge! (btw, I say this as one who knows first hand (had to visit my allergist to find out)...you sound like you might have nasal polyps. Don't wait, get into the doctor as soon as you can, you may be able to treat them with a steroid rinse rather than have to get the kind of surgery you can find on UA-cam!)
Always glad to help. I experienced it myself, and for a long time I thought I just had terminally congested nostrils, but it finally got so bad I visited an allergist, and sure enough, I had Rhinosinusitis, and nascent polyps. We caught them soon enough that I didn't need surgery, I can keep it under control with irrigating with a case-specific anti-inflammatory (Budesonide, in this case, off-label use a bit, it's usually used in vapor form, but one of the hospitals in Denver pioneered using it in nasal irrigation with really good results).
Where ever you put the finger nail polish does not etched. that is really all there is to it. Make sure the polish has had time to dry before trying it, I think over night is best. It is not for any blade, the process works best with simple carbon steels. The process is unpredictable or may not work at all on other types of steels. I use this process on simple carbon steels like 1095, 1084.
Mr. Lewis, thank you for taking your time to show your craft. You aren't required to show how you make scales, etch the blades, or anything else for that matter. I greatly appreciate the fact that you choose to. It's a shame there are so many criticisms and so few thank you's. Thank you for all of your videos and I sincerely hope you keep sharing.
It all makes perfect sense Lewis. It was a stroke to apply an acid like vinegar without chewing up your razor with a more intense bath like I use with Sterling Silver which is 8 parts water to 1 part Nitric Acid. Lewis, your craftsmanship is a joy to examine. I also understand how the quenching oil would alter the etch by the hardening differential and leave such wonderful subtle patterns. I will be looking for anything that you post Lewis. Thank you for sharing you knowledge and skill. T.
Thank you very much for the constructive critique and helpful advice. This was one of my early videos. I have improved my audio and video and since then. I have learned a lot since making my early videos. I look back now and think I can not believe I made that. Thanks again for advice.
FYI another great way to do this is just buy a bottle of PCB / Circuitboard etchant. You can get them at most electronics stores for 3 to 10 bucks. I prefer it because I can just paint some nail polish over the bevel (because I prefer to not subject the sharpened area to anything acidic) and brush the etchant onto the blade for a couple minutes, then rinse it off and scrape off the polish with an old credit card or whatever. Quick, dark, and even patina... you dont have to sharpen off a weakened cutting edge afterwards.. Afterwards I give it a lighter scrub with soap (lighter than you did) but toss it in the tumbler with the nailpolish still on the end for a short amount of time. it will give the fake patina a nice soft glow look which is pretty cool.
That is an inforative video. It is amazing how many different ways there are to do things, and get similar results.
I have been paranoid about putting my blade in contact with the bottom of the pan with the heating element right underneath it, that is why I used a seperate container. You showed me it could be done with no harm to the temper, Thanks.
Thanks for this. Just started bladesmithing and the etched look is really slick !
Thank you for all the instruction! I am new to bladesmithing, and I am trying different finishing techniques. I like the look of this hot vinegar etching.
You are welcome,
Pretty cool, i also like the tune you whistle with your nose while you work : )
Jessie Hydro Yes, the audio sucked in the video, I have learned not to put my face by camera microphone.
😂
I have tried this on several knives recently and it works delightfully. Thanks for the video.
BTW speaking of razor blades, you can use plain old single edge razor blades to experiment on ...it is carbon steel and takes a bluing so it is good for trial and error before you do it on an item you care about....btw I am probably one of the very few folks that actually resharpen disposal razor blades for my utility box cutter knives ... takes just a minute and then is pretty much good as new ...kind of silly since I have a whole box of new blades, but it just my thrifty side shining through ...I just enjoy restoring things back to usable
Thanks for your thoughts
I do the same and use a 1 inch belt sander with homemade 1200 grit wet or dry belts.
Acid etching is also important for some ornamental blade steels when used in a process like pattern wielding in order to display the contrast between different alloys that have been welded together.
Thank you for your input, you are right abut my breathing, I am slowly learning to make good videos.
@ScottsUtubeWorld Yes, you are right, room temp vinegar and a longer period of time will also make a nice patina. The room temperature vinegar is a lot less aggressive etch.
Most of the plain carbon steel blades that I make are tempered in 350 - 400 degree range. The temperature of the boiling vinegar is around 213 degrees, so it will not affect the temper of the blade.
Lemon juice works well also, I have blacked all of my carbon steel
pocked knives this way. And you dont have to stink up the house with boiling vinegar. Just stick the blades in a lemon overnight and lightly buff with fine steel wool. Dont forget to oil.
There is that very simple test you know. . .applying a match to the gas of a tiny scrap of steel to see if it 'pops' on ignition. I was only curious about the gas because of my experience with Nitric. Thanks again Lewis!
Your welcome, I appreciate the kind words.
Yes, very similar to bluing. It eats up the surface a little more than bluing.
Yes, I have messed around with mustard, there are a ton of possibilities for patterns. It is a lot of fun.
beautiful work thank you for sharing this makes me wonder what else we could etch
Try adding a small amount of dish soap. It makes sure that the surface is uniformly contacted by the acid. I think you'll find a better result and a need to repeat the process and remove the black coating fewer times. I've made a few clay-tempered blades with a hamon and it helps.
Oh man. such a pretty blade!
Thank you
It does not get hot enough to hurt the temper. The boiling vinegar gets about 212 degress, the blades are tempered at 400 degrees.
Try using straight Anti-Freeze (Not 50-50 mix), such as you put in your car radiator. I do this as my quenching process from red hot. Same anti rust properties, but leaves an eerie green and blue sheen permanently on the blade.
Wow that's so cool. It's amazing what can be done with simple stuff.
Thanks
Thanks for the video Charlie, you a real craftsman.
Love your creations.
If you use 50/50 peroxide and vinegar you don’t need to apply heat. The mix is exothermic aka it heats its self. The peroxide increases the aggressiveness of the vinegar. Works fast and gives a nice etch.
Thank you for your knowledge, I love learning new and better ways of doing things.
Lewis Razors your very welcome.
I was talking about the oil I used to quench the blade during heat-treat.
My video "Razor Making Overview, From Start To Shaving " at 23:55 shows what I was talking about.
I had the blade red hot and dipped the blade portion of the razor in oil to harden it, the handle portion went into the oil a few seconds later. The handle did not get as hard as the blade.
You can see the transition between the hard and softer areas around the handle - blade transition. The vinegar etch makes this show up.
taken a look at some of ya past work & WOWs the only way of putting your truly outstanding beautiful work/craftsmanship cant wait to see more
Thank you for letting me take a peek Sir
That pretty much sums it up perfectly, takes away shiny, put on a little bit of protective patina.
Yes, that's exactly what I am doing! Maybe I should have named the video "Putting a Patina on a Blade." Thanks.
The advantages are nearly all cosmetic. The surface is a little more stain resistant with a patina, but not much. I use the process for cosmetic reasons, I like the look of it.
thanks for the help!it wasn't working because the blade i used was stainless my mistake, but i tried it with some O-1 and it worked just fine!
~Brandon
Thank you for the compliments,
you can get a really nice etch if you dip it in the vinegar for 2 sec. and then in cold water for 2 sec and then you don't have to get rid of the black film stuff.
That is really a great tip! I usually use Ferric Chloride diluted in hot water. I will have to try that.
Ever try it with horseradish or mustard? You can paint it onto a carbon blade and create whatever pattern you wish, even a faux damascus pattern. If you don't like it, you can polish it off and start over.
@lewisrazors Thanks man. I've made a few, but they've all been single radius grind with a 10" wheel. They work well enough I suppose but they are on the heavy side. I may try your method with a full hollow next. Razors are a whole new world from knives. They really seem to hone your skills.
another great video.. i used to want to get into making custom razors... but i don't think i could match or better your artistic eye for it... hope you are doing well... thanks for posting the lesson.
Thanks for the kind comments.
yep, but I am still breathing, that makes me a happy camper
Great technique and a nice straight forward video.
Thank yoiu
@ArtistBlade1972 Yes I do some full hollows but not a lot of them. I tend to grind the area by the edge with a 6 or 8 wheel, then hollow out the belly area with a 4 wheel, then use a 2 or 1 1/4 by the spine. I then blend all of the grinds/grooves together with the smallest wheel that I used, then hand sand. I do all the work with a single wheel. Full hollows are a lot more work than a single radius grind.
Nice work. I love the rustic style handle with the finished blade. Just going to look at your website :D
Thanks for the comment.
Mirror polish knives theoretically have flatter surfaces on a microscopic level, and therefore have less surface area for corrosion to occur on as well as likely having lower drag coefficients than those with less smooth finishes. A lot of people don't like them though because fingerprints and other smudges are more visible on them and tools inherently vulnerable to corrosion like some tool steels will likely benefit more from an anti-corrosion coating.
Thanks for the response, helped to find out your process as well as others. For anyone out there curious for a 1 off name etch or similar Nail Polish will work as a screening agent. Cheers from John.
Very high carbon steel used in some knives can be up to 2%, while normal high carbon steel would be 1%. This is by weight, so it will appear larger in volume, as iron is heavier, more dense actually, than carbon. The carbon in the steel has to go somewhere when the iron is dissolved by the acid. The dark material may be other metals in the alloy too, ones that don't react quickly with the acetic acid in vinegar. Metal blades can also be etched with salt water and a battery hooked to the + side.
Thank you, The razor is one I made myself. I sell my razors through Straight Razor Designs.
The last few seconds of the video appear to indicate that he was etching the blade to reveal the internal structure of the metal after he had tempered the blade. The metal forms crystals who's shape and size define its strength and hardness.
The carbon content does not seem to affect it much. But different alloys do make a big difference, I usually test on scrap if I try a new type of steel.
thank you for the reply, did a bit of research and seen what etching is about
That's a very handsome razor, I may have to try etching with this method some time.
It depends on the look you are going after. Sometimes I will do a quick 5 minute dip, other times I will leave it in 30 minutes or longer. I check the progress when I clean off the black build-up. I wish I had a more definite answer but I do not.
awww dude your like a pro at pouring things from a sauce pan. rock on.
not the etching I thought I was going to see, I thought it was going to be the dremel tool etching type. I learned something today.
The nose whistling is the most important part of this video lol
@flaviusmol The etching is turning the shiny metal a gray color, it is just putting a patina on the surface of the metal.
Short answer, yes, purely cosmetic. Long answer it does make the blade a bit more stain resistant, in essence the blade is already pre-stained.
Gorgeous blade, nice work!
It is a piece of xtra fine mirlon. MIrlon is Mirka's version on scotch bright, it is an extra fine grit. I buy it at an auto body supply shop.
it's harder to do it to stainless steel if also tried it i recomend that you keep it in the hot vinegar for a longer time then it might work
The blade is tempered at 400 F the vinegar is about 212 F. The blade is well below the tempering temperature. No worries about the tempering.
Yes, it does dull the edge of a blade.
You are welcome, Thanks for the input.
Thank you for explaining what ur doing. Most people just show it while playing very load annoying music
I appreciate your feedback
Ide rather listen to his blacksmith lungs than the shit music they normally play.
Thank you,
Yes, I have and do make a few damascus razors.
Great vid. Thanks for clarifying this process.
Alexander Ockenden You are welcome
I know a couple people have already said it but the breathing really does take away from an otherwise excellent video. Either keep the microphone a little farther away from your mouth or put tissues, a sock or some piece of cloth over the microphone as a filter to get that noise out.
I have learned a bit since I made this video
Thanks for the feedback. Appreciate the video .
opticschief Back at you
Thank you for the tip, I will try it next time I use this process.
Nice job looks great. 1095 is the number of this steel. Like a cake Metal/steel is made up of different kinds of metal and carbon for hardness.
Bluing is cool also, I have rust blued a couple of blades in the past.
I did this It worked so much better and faster then fr cl acid.
glad it worked for you
Yes, you have to clean off the black stuff. It is loosely attached and will rub off easily and make a mess of everything.
Yes, it is a similar finish to ferric chloride.
I did not reheat the vinegar. The insulated mug does a pretty good job of keeping it warm. It is not really boiling, what you are seeing is the bubbles coming off of the metal as it etches.
The etching gets rid of the shiny new surface, and forces a grayish patina on the metal. I like the dull grayish patina more than a shiny new surface.
There is nothing worse that a wait of time.
Yes, the blade is a little more corrosion resistant.
Great video and good camera work
Glad you liked it
The tempering temp for this steel is about 400F. The boiling vinegar is about 212F well below the tempering temp.
Looks awesome brother ! Amazing razors!!!!!!!
Thank you
I think that was a 1095 blade. I am glad the process worked on your carbon blade.
@raggedbreath I have used this with O1 steel, it will turn it gray. It is like you said, no temper line but a nice gray color
Thank you,
Yes I made the razors on my website.
The prices vary a lot depending on work involved and materials. I sell my work through Straight Razor Designs.
I would suggest that you do this at a well ventilated location. I was pickling when I boiled some vinegar and the vapors weren't pleasant.
I would worry a bit about using boiling vinegar. Some of my knife instructions state that the knives shouldn't be washed in dishwashers... so I wonder if boiling might change the temper. I put a beautiful, deep petina on a Mora knife by letting it sit in room temperature vinegar for about 24 hours. And like you, I wiped the film off periodically. Cheers.
find out what your metal has in it! like Lewis said, high carbon will take a patina very well. Stainless wont work, and even a lighter carbon base like D2 may have a little issue. i've done it cold with dotted paper soaked in vinegar to make a pattern on D2, it just takes longer.
I have not tried apple juice. I will put that on my list of things to try it is an interesting idea.
Used this method on Damascus steel work pretty good.
Cool, I have used this on damascus also.
Yes but if you use boiling vinegar you may mess up the heat treatment of the metal
Yes, it is after heat treat. The blade is finished. I do this step right before honing.
Lewis awesome video simplistic very easy to follow I really enjoyed the video. Ive been making razors for a little over a year nothing to special. I have some w2 I will have to try alot easier than acid like feric cloride. thanks kellyw
great video thanks...i have a suggestion though its not meant to sound rude...you can slightly hear your breathing in the background...there should be some sort of noise cancellation option in whatever sound program you use or voice/video capture software ur using. Often when people have a rly good mic u can hear things like breathing or mouth movement. Just thought u might not know we can even hear it. Anyway loved the video thanks:)
Nice vid. I use muriatic acid for this (sold in certain hardware stores for cleaning cement, etc.), it works in just a few minutes, I heat it up to 115 degrees F on a hot pad, but that may be too dangerous for some people, and vinegar is cheaper and more easily sourced. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, lots of guys want to hide their knowledge!
(btw, I say this as one who knows first hand (had to visit my allergist to find out)...you sound like you might have nasal polyps. Don't wait, get into the doctor as soon as you can, you may be able to treat them with a steroid rinse rather than have to get the kind of surgery you can find on UA-cam!)
Thank you for all of the infformation. both razor and health related.
Always glad to help. I experienced it myself, and for a long time I thought I just had terminally congested nostrils, but it finally got so bad I visited an allergist, and sure enough, I had Rhinosinusitis, and nascent polyps. We caught them soon enough that I didn't need surgery, I can keep it under control with irrigating with a case-specific anti-inflammatory (Budesonide, in this case, off-label use a bit, it's usually used in vapor form, but one of the hospitals in Denver pioneered using it in nasal irrigation with really good results).
@tsfcancerman That is interesting. It is amazing all the different ways there are to get some task done. People are very ingenious.
A patina is a surface treatment to the steel. I am making the shiny metal surface gray and matte.
Yes, the blade can be used. It will need sharpening after the process
It makes the blade a little more stain resistant. In essence I am pre-staining the whole blade so it is harder to stain the blade again.
Where ever you put the finger nail polish does not etched. that is really all there is to it. Make sure the polish has had time to dry before trying it, I think over night is best.
It is not for any blade, the process works best with simple carbon steels. The process is unpredictable or may not work at all on other types of steels. I use this process on simple carbon steels like 1095, 1084.
Thank you for information, and heads up
You are welcome.
Hahaha,,, that's all that matters. I just was curious if there was some advantage I wasn't aware of , thnx.