Pilot, air traffic controller argue over landing
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2024
- A pilot and an air traffic controller argue over landing on a closed runway after the pilot declared a fuel emergency. CBS News' Kris Van Cleave has the details for CBSN.
![PASSENGER LANDS PLANE After Pilot Incapacitation [ATC audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9Jy8jpfyiek/mqdefault.jpg)
![PASSENGER LANDS PLANE After Pilot Incapacitation [ATC audio]](/img/tr.png)
As a 20 year Controller I can verify this WAS a professional conversation between a pilot and controller that occurs about any number of issues daily...NOT AN ARGUMENT!
right 😄
Exactly! I’ve never done this type of work, I just listen to this conversation while thinking with logic about it.. no arguing here!
I didn’t know arguments were normal conversations about procedures
The politeness and calm was shocking.
The word argument has nothing to do with tone of voice. This WAS an argument. And it wasn't normal. Understand what they are talking about here: the lives of say 100 passengers are in the balance and the pilot is clearly pressing the issue about his low fuel status. ATC then got back and lectured the pilot about how the company should have known blah blah blah.
@@ilikethisnamebetter - Calmness is not something you can necessary detect over the radio. The pilot was clearly pressing the issue and was trying to do so in a professional manner. The ATC guy wasn't polite... he was telling the pilot of a passenger jet 'too bad about your low fuel problem.' It was a disgrace.
@@puma.will.pounce7590 You need to look up the definitions of "calm" and "polite".
@@ilikethisnamebetter - Two meaningless words. The request was clearly URGENT. And no, the pilot wasn't calm. He was clearly the opposite. Calm is a description of a person, and has nothing to do with the tone of voice.
Not to mention the ATC was very impolite.
That was a very polite exchange. This is nothing but CLICK BAITING.
@@TWTR4EVER That does not have anything to do with this video and the title. There was no argument at all in this case, just a pilot and an ATC working things out.
@@camcleat It has plenty to do as far as Allegiant is concerned. The worst outfit in the air.
Nailed it!
@@TWTR4EVER At one time it was SOUTHWEST AIRLINES. It seemed to be where all things PILOT started.
Gypsyfirefly fake news maybe hahahahaha
Where's the argument? The pilot and ATC were following normal procedures in coordinating a solution for the fuel problem. Conversations like this happen many times a day.
Totally agree. I don't hear any argument. Just pilot and ATC communicating.
There was no argument, this is just a savvy attention grabbing title to get you to click
Yeah, I worked at TYS for a year and a half. This is just standard communications.
Corey McCammon
A plane wanting to land at a closed airport is normal? What if they didn't have an open runway?
It's only the last statement about they should have known. lol Then again you DON'T YELL ON THE AIR! lol It's part of FCC law!
Regardless who is at fault, decide that later, let the damn plane land.
The controller does not have the authority to reopen an airport that is closed. The only option the pilot had at that point was to declare an emergency, thereby allowing the plane to land at this (or any) airport regardless of landing restrictions.
Some pilots declare emergencies because they are given priority which is correct.
Improper flight planning fuel Reserve is an admission of that
I think some of you need to read 14CFR §91.3
A gentleman's discussion, no argument at all ??
goldenkoi23 g
goldenkoi23 I agree, there was no argument. But this pilot had to have known about this airport closing. There are NOTAM(Notice to all airman). One of two things , he or his co-pilot read them and just didn't care, they will take me or they didn't read them. Either case he put all his passengers in danger by doing this. He maybe a good pilot but he jeopardized his plane and his passengers.
Right! no argument.
I've flown with lots of pilots in my Air Force career. Some were fighter pilots who were either , I. Sorry to say to old to fly jets anymore. So they came to where I was a crew member on EC-130E's. Some of them that came from the fighter world had such ego's would fo something like this pilot did. They will let me land there no matter what. I could see it. I've been there done that.
???
Oh brother...arguing? Hardly... total click bait and I took it.
Yea, got me too!
me three
Hahahahaha 😂😂
That was some fierce arguing right there, intense stuff indeed.
I flew commercially for 33 years...there is no argument!
unless you spent all your money on coke and hookers you must be loaded
No one asked
Boop Boop Snoot Stfu
If the had less than final reserves he would already have declared an emergency. He wasn't saying he'll have 0kg fuel in 3-4 min. what he meant is that in 3 or 4 minutes, he'll be at the legal minimum for fuel reserves on landing and he'll have to declare an emergency so as not to run out of fuel in the 30 min after that! these CBSN guys had no clue what they're talking about.
As usual the false narrative is presented as well informed/unquestionable "News". When in truth, it's full of distortions, ignorance and or lies. I've see this happen for decades, especially when it comes to aviation. (and ...more recently it's been "going off the rails" when it comes to politics).
what argument?
Is... this wasn't an argument? Sounds like a conversation, mate
I didn't hear any argument. The media making a big thing out of nothing.
CBS calls a normal conversation an argument....that speaks volumes their style
I’ve never heard an argument end in ‘thank you’ before! Most certainly blown out of all proportion.
Had the Allegiant crew checked NOTAMS, they would have known that the Blues were there in Fargo that weekend! The Blues normally have two practice flights a day except on show days. When this Allegiant crew arrived (late) the Blues had the airspace for one of their practices . . . in other words, the airspace was closed to all other traffic UNLESS an emergency was declared. This was Allegiant's fault and I am sure the FAA had plenty to say to the crew . . . who I also understand were high-ranking executives with the airline taking the flight to stay current. Embarrassing all the way around, if that last part is true. We all make mistakes, but at least no one was hurt . . . except ego's.
It was the airlines fault. The crew should have looked at the NOTAMS and delayed their departure in order to arrive when the airport was open. If they were ordered to go anyway it’s still their fault. The crew should have refused. I heard they could have gone to Grand Forks but didn’t want to offload the passengers there. This is another reason not to fly Allegiant.
Where on earth is the 'argument', these guys had a polite discussion. Thumbs-down as clickbait!
Fake news.
As far as ATC transmissions are concerned, it all sounded professional to me. I can't hear any Arguments
The thing i heard was the pilot exaggerating what his aircraft status was and what communications had occurred with the company. First he had 3 minutes of fuel then he suddenly had fuel to wait those 3 or 4 min. Then his company had been calling because he was out of fuel in 3 minutes but suddenly after those 3 or 4 minutes he would contact his company... Wait didn't he already say he was already talking with his company? which is it? Pilot was trying to manipulate the situation with his tactics of how dire the situation was and his company couldn't reach anyone...??? Sounds like alternative facts.
wizbang68 he said he would be on bingo fuel in 3 minutes, not that he had 3 minutes worth of fuel..
It is my belief the pilot was talking about the "Bingo" safety factor, an old military term to describe the condition of remaining fuel available to a military aircraft. The term "Bingo" refers to a non-regulatory meaning of the term that warns the pilot that "Bingo fuel" means it's time to either turn back to land, or time to make a judgment call about landing very soon. The term is NOT a regulatory term used in GA terms to mean "it's now an emergency because "we reached Bingo fuel time". Bingo fuel means it's time for us to go home safely because we don't want to have an emergency if we wait much longer.
Wizbang68, do you even know what 'bingo fuel' is?
When you run out of news
As an ATC controller.... this was not even close to an “argument”
kingpin16052 How much do you make ?
@@logandavis954
New Hampshire average air traffic controller salary: $147,350
Virginia average air traffic controller salary: $139,520
Illinois average air traffic controller salary: $136,390
Georgia average air traffic controller salary: $136,210
Texas average air traffic controller salary: $133,260
California average air traffic controller salary: $132,300
Minnesota average air traffic controller salary: $131,330
Ohio average air traffic controller salary: $131,180
New York average air traffic controller salary: $130,840
Colorado average air traffic controller salary: $128,210
@@logandavis954 minimum wage by Uncle Sam. I'm in the military.
kingpin16052 Atleast you can transition over once you get out
@@tdoheron its not completely uncommon for pilots to do this. They have to be willing to file the paper work after though lol.... but if the airport has weird policies or traffic density is too heavy, creating a long wait, pilots will sometimes do this in order to take over priority before it becomes a serious situation.
I never heard an argument, just a professional discussion between the flight crew and the ATC.
See, CBS, this is why I don't believe you. CLICKBAIT.
That's an argument? That's called procedure.
Good interaction between the two people!!!
Well done
its funny how this was labeled an "argue" ive heard much worse on my aircraft radio
oh same, I've been yelled at by approach because he didnt call back with my callsign and I called back. Must of been a long day for him
Clickbait is strong with CBS.
The questions are: Was the aircraft truly fuel-starved or did the crew try to BS ATC for an undelayed landing upon arriving at FAR? Begin with the AAY dispatcher. Did the dispatcher release the flight ignorant of the NOTAM? Or, were the players (dispatcher and flight crew) aware of the NOTAM and decide to "negotiate" their way into a landing at FAR upon arrival, thus disrupting airshow ops? This would not be the first time that has happened. If this trip did not have 45 minutes of remaining fuel upon arriving AT THEIR ALTERNATE DESTINATION...something is VERY wrong.
If the news reports other events as bad as they report aviation events then I'm sincerely worried.
"planes are supposed to have a 45 minutes fuel buffer..."
Yeah, it's called reserve fuel and you never use it unless you HAVE to. If he diverts all the way to Duluth he would be fuel critical upon landing. If he has to do a missed approach in Duluth for whatever reason he may be out of fuel before being able to come back around and land. The pilot took the safest approach, paused the blue angels glorious practice, and landed the plane. The regulations worked.
Unless we dont know the whole story. Like how much fuel was wasted because the airline was arguing over this for a while.
+Lou Paul He would have to declare an emergency upon diverting because Grand Forks is far enough that he would be at less than 30 minutes of fuel upon reaching Grand Forks. So if he was dispatched with only fuel for the trip from origin to Fargo plus the required 45 minutes reserved fuel, then he is at emergency fuel the very second ATC ask him to divert or hold. There was good weather so no alternate fuel was added. So again the safest action was to declare emergency and land. The flight was going to end this way from the moment it took off because the NOTAM was missed by the dispatcher and the crew. the flight was delayed leaving it's origin which caused it to arrive during the Blue angels practice and this was overlooked by the airline.
Pilot here. This is correct.
Correct. He was caught lying and exaggerating
A to b plus 2 alternates plus 45 minutes
Where was the argument? The pilot said if things were not worked out in a few minutes he would declare, and the controller pretty much told him to declare and he would be able to land at will....
Sounds like a simple solution. Unfortunately, declaring an emergency opens a can of worms that the pilot is trying to avoid.
Did you not hear the part of 3 mins of fuel remaining? At that point the ATC should have given immediate clearance to land.
That was the tamest argument I've ever heard.
There was no argument here.
The pilots in this incident were management pilots replacing line pilots during a work dispute. BTW, one of the pilots flying this aircraft is the management over line pilots and responsible for issuing discipline to other pilots if one of them fails to read and plan on the NOTAMS that were available before he departed. Next time you tell your boss "I can't do what you want because of XYZ." Imagine him taking over your tasks and then not being able to complete them because of XYZ. That's what happened here.
Classic Allegiant. Notorious for leaving whenever and landing whenever. That's why you keep a schedule.
Argument? No, I've heard "arguments" before and this one doesn't qualify. It sounded like a professional discussion between two aviation professionals trying to work out a solution. Should Allegiant had enough fuel to divert? Yes, but we don't know the whole story.
🤦🏻♀️ this was a normal conversation. CLICK BAIT GARBAGE
A non-story.
Pilot & Tower: *has a logical discussion*
CBSN: hold my mic..
WHAT ARGUMENT????? The pilot and the controller had a discussion, both being normal. The pilot tried to circumvent declaring an emergency, the controller requiring it to do the emergency landing. That isn't an issue.
You call that arguing? It wasn't even a disagreement. It was a civil discussion of the situation.
This is nothing in terms of "arguing" if you wanna hear some shots being fired back and fourth listen to JFK ground. Very nice frequency. ;)
Yes, the winner in that category.
Midwest UTV you got that right
The legendary "Kennedy Steve" Abraham. He's retired now but that frequency is still hopping.
Midwest UTV yeah they do get into don’t they?? 😂😂
Literally clickbait, where’s the “Argument”
According to the FAA any plane who is declaring an emergency have priority over any other plane
When you declare a emergency, you do not have priority over every other plane however you have the right to break any flight regulations in the name of safety
I can grab my book and show you the and if need be
I never thought that I would be click baited by a news channel😂.
Flight ops should known and informed the crew however pilot should have checked airport runway and NOTAMs at pre flight briefing. This airport/runway closure time would have been listed. Assume nothing!
What arguement? Pilot controlled discussion to solve an issue short of declaring an emergency
"Pilot: I don't have 20 minutes of fuel left." No, what he's saying is he doesn't have 20 minutes to wait around. He's trying to get on the ground before he only has 30 minutes of fuel remaining. Fake news.
You clearly have no knowledge of avaition and protocals of the FAA or CAA. Ignorant.
@@azhalhalil9429 Just an airline captain, what would I know.
Youd know that he doesnt have 20 minutes before hes eating into his reserve fuel only enough to get him diverted, once youre in reserve/minimum fuel then youll be questioned on hit hense why he needed to get on the ground, planes should very very rarely reach minimum fuel
You are guessing that the 45 minute fuel reserve started to count when they had tge conversation. Do you know if the pilot has been on hold for 40 minutes at that time?
straight facts meaning the ATC and the pilot communicating
If my ex-wife and I had cordial arguments like that, we would still be married.
I don't call this an argument!
Wow... where to begin. First of all DP, and I hope you read this, you are way off beat. The controller did not have a choice. They don't decide when an airport is open and when it's not. He wasn't being a jerk in not allowing it, in fact he may have been saving his life. Because the airport was NOTAMED closed the ONLY way the pilot would be allowed to land would be in an emergency. The airport was scheduled to close during that time and the pilot took off knowing this, it is he who endangered his passengers. As part of his preflight briefing the pilot would have been given this info by his dispatch. The controller told the pilot that if he needed to declare an emergency he needed to do it on the center freq. as that is who was holding him at that time (SOP). Once he declares the emergency then they would move, but this will also raise many questions hot him to answer. Many of which have been written here already. But don't blame the controller under those circumstances.
Probably the most courteous conversation ever between 2 humans.
Pilot: I'm declaring an emergency landing. (Final Answer). No argument there
That was an argument? How is this even newsworthy? Oh it's ABC News no wonder.....
Uh...CBS news. (Not that it really makes much difference, though.)
Or should an airshow take precedence over a commercial flight?
Total BS, even the news anchor should be embarrassed reading this. Not a spat or argument at all.
"Some tense moments indeed"
These people will try to turn anything into a news story.
The station probably pushes her and others to make a story out of nothing.
He wasn't arguing with him. WTF with the title?
Nothing but click bate. No arguing at all. It does sound like the pilot just did not want to declare an emergency though.
I didn't sense an argument.
I’m a pilot this sounded very Cordial andbprofessional so just what’s the big fuss about this video.
"Intense moments indeed" 1:51 Total non event. Zzzzzzzz.
To be clear, the FAA regs call for a 45 min. fuel reserve not only after the first point of intended landing is missed, but after that, there must be extra fuel as explained further. Then the Flight must be able to go to its alternate airport with enough fuel on board to miss the approach for the alternate airport and to loiter for another 45 Min. after that.
That is the min. amount allowed by the FAA regs. Many airlines have their own rules that surpass the FAA 45 min. fuel reserve requirement after the alternate airport has gone "missed approach" for additional safety reasons. Captain Joe has an episode on this and I strongly advise anybody interested to follow Captain Joe's lesson on this issue.
Also, Please follow the King Ground school lesson on the minimum fuel required for commercial flights.
There are many other good web sites that also explain this issue, such as AOPA as well as others. Please, all of aviation needs to follow the minimum fuel requirements plus the company safety factors for this well documented historical problem.
BREAKING NEWS!!
Wife and husband argue over where to eat!!!
Wife: how about Mexican
Husband: not really feeling that today honey. How about Chinese.
Wife: sounds ok but let's do Italian.
Husband: sounds great.
That's about the argument you get with this clickbait
argument?
How "intense".
I did not hear any arguing, maybe that's how they argue in Fargo. I'm moving there.
A friendly exchange with my in-laws goes worse
Argument? Pilot and Controller calmly discussed the need to land. No argument there. End of story.
I love it when news reporters wear tank tops
Me too. 🙂
Fake news...clickbait only....that was one of the most professional conversations I have ever heard.
Okay this was Allegiant this is the airline that has blown tires when landing no cheap tickets are worth flying with this cut rate company
Jeez, was the news stories slow that day, yea ,just a huge major argument,, lmao yea right
"thank you for the help" - I'd say with EXTREME SARCASM!
I say son, This boy’s making more noise than a couple of skeletons throwin’ a fit on a tin roof. Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
So ? Allegiant flies with insufficient fuel. That's what happens when you cut corners to cut your costs. It's incomprehensibly stupid.
Must have been a slow fake news day.
Let me save you time
CLICKBAIT CLICKBAIT CLICKBAIT CLICKBAIT
Sounds like nobody thought of the passengers
Since when do you have to yell, or be toxic for it to be an argument comments section?
Should I flag this as clickbait?
Yes
yes
What does bingo mean in the fuel level context?
The pilot was clearly in error here. He was told he had to wait 20 minutes UNLESS he wished to declare an emergency. the Pilot Declined to do. Since pilots tend to panic when fuel is really low, he clearly was not so low on fuel he could not divert. He was trying to cajole the tower into letting him land so he didn't have to divert. The ultimate cause of the issue was that when he took off late, he should of had a note in his flight papers of the closed window at his destination. If he didn't then it was clearly a home office problem. If he did then it is again NOT the destination towers problem.
To be clear IF he had declared a low fuel emergency (which by tradition and regulations he has to actually say 'I am declaring an Emergency' which he clearly did not do) then everyone else would be put on hold and he would be allowed to land straight away. That is how it works... He also would have had to show he really was low on fuel.
In cases like this running out of fuel is very critical and landing should be top priority without any delays
Lmao the look on that Chris guys face said "What argument?" So he went on about typical procedures and basic information. Lmao. Sad media trying to get numbers.
3:00 someone is charging their phone
That is actually the mail default notification sound for iOS devices
Thanks CBS for the honest tag line!
"Minimum fuel" is the magic phrase to sweet talk the system, otherwise the pilot needs to declare an emergency. He doesn't need to threaten an emergency to "negotiate". The controller can't do it for him and he tells him such. The talking head on the news show doesn't know any ATC phraseology and misleads her audience by this story.
The controller was right.
Joe Devine - Only problem is, irregardless of what transpired beforehand, the liner was out of gas and controller was satisfied as long as he could be alive right, that it didn't bother him a scosche folks on liner end up dead wrong. There is a technical word this type of outlook, and I believe it's he's a putz!!!!
The controller told the pilot he needed to declare an emergency to get the special treatment he wanted, that's all (if it's not an emergency, he shouldn't need the special treatment). What this really seems like to me is Allegiant bullying their way into the airport rather than incur the expense of landing at a nearby airport and rerouting the passengers. They were trying to do it without incurring the scrutiny of an emergency declaration.
Procedures are in place for a reason.
Craig Bryant - Sounded like pilot very busy and sweating this one stating he had 3-4 minutes of fuel. He apparently was going thru his company trying to declare an emergency, but then controller making go thru Minn. Ctr. to do so seems insane with liner having then 3 min fuel left. Nice to know if enough gas added before takeoff!
That's a problem, pilots should never worry about repercussions, just declare the emergency if you are in enough trouble to do so. I have done it once in 45 years of flying , and nothing was set in motion, no request for a call or letter. Nothing. Always remember part 91.3 and use it , but don't abuse it.
No one was right or wrong, this was no argument in the first place
They tried to skimp on fuel to save money and it backfired.
*Unspent* fuel is money saved whether it remains unpurchased in a storage tank at the last airport or purchased and loaded in the plane and available for consumption before the NEXT flight gas-up. Duh?
Take a look at the story on RYANAIR and what they do and how they treat their pilots and how they ALWAYS have fuel emergencies.
The best Ryan Air video is where the good ole boy says "he should have called in sick today."
Yes!!! That was funny
The EXTRA fuel takes more fuel to haul it.
Why did this carry the caption of ARGUE? This conversation is normal for the tower people and someone running low on fuel.
Excellent communications between the tower and plane and the situation made clear.
Let them land but penalize them for not following strict compliance.
That's why they had to "declare an emergency" because there is a fine applied. Also why they were trying to "coordinate" to land earlier so they wouldn't have to declare one. IE: "Were trying to get out of the penalty."
Since when was there a 'fine' for declaring an emergency? If they actually left without the correct reserves, then they might be fined, but there's no evidence that that's the case.
Not always a fine, sometime it is just a call to the tower after landing, sometimes a letter and sometimes neither. I have declared an emergency one time in 45 years of flying. My son and I were flying at night and talking to Tampa approach control when our engine lost power. While decending into a dark ground we called Mayday. The controller told us about two airports that were way out of range to glide to, that's about all they can do. We went over emergency procedures and finally pulled the carb heat and the engine came back to life no more than 1000 feet above the ground. We landed at a small airport in downtown Tampa and I called Tampa Int'l tower to tell them we were down OK, they just said they knew a police helicopter reported us down and safe. They didn't request a call but I called anyway. Nothing was ever heard of the situation. Don't ever hesitate declaring an emergency for fear of FAA repercussions.
Jim New Yes, I completely agree with not hesitating to declare for fear of repercussions. That said, I think what the pilot did in this video was fine. Just informed them that in a few minutes, he'd need to declare if they didn't clear him first. That gives them a heads-up so Tower can hopefully work him in before he has to declare or, if not, they're at least expecting it rather than being caught off-guard. Better for everyone in that case.
Jim New Totally different. You experienced an unpredictable failure and reacted appropriately. This crew did not adequate analyze the NOTAM/TFR status or the airport and failed in preflight planning and inflight decision-making. You had no reason to fear FAA enforcement proceedings-they definitely did.
This is outrageous. Allegiant pilots failed to know that the tower was closed for an air show. No reserve fuel to divert? The pilots should lose their tickets. Then we learn that the pilots were Allegiant Management pilots.
What was the final outcome of this? Was Allegiant fined?
WASTING VALUABLE AIR / PLANNING TIME....I BELIEVE THE CONTROLLER SHOULD HAVE ALLOWED HIM DIRECT CLEARANCE "ARGUE LATER" PASSENGERS FIRST!
.... I’m not sure that’s a spat. That’s fairly normal conversation prior to officially declaring an emergency.
Allegiant Air operates on a shoe string with no regard of safety towards their passengers and crews.
there was no 'arguement' it was just a polite discussion
That was not an argument
That's not an argument. That's a pilot asserting his need.