Jaguar XJC V12 update. Engine issues mean it's back in the workshop for a new fuel injection system
Вставка
- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- The Jaguar XJC V12 is back at Tom Lenthalls because I can't get it to run reliably on all twelve cylinders and the only solution is to replace the whole injection system with a new one.
This video was created with the support of:
www.footmanjame...
www.magnitudef...
www.silverston...
www.ctek.com
chargestorm.se...
Follow me on
/ harrysgaragevids
/ harrym_vids
Rarely am I interested in Harry's reviews of pricey new automobiles. But when he takes one of his classics to an expert, and takes us along, I absolutely love it! Throwing your son under the bus like that, honestly Harry...
Poor Charlie didn't get the right of reply. Had to take all the blame 😢
@@ChifundoBanda good engine builders won't let an engine out that is likely to have issues within a minimum of 50k miles. Also the heavy epoxy primer job on this jag is highly suspicious he's shot it on with a 2.2mm tip and if I remember the vid of it he basically used it as a HB filler coat and final surfacing in one spray. Yeah I don't care who the paint supplier is on that one that's not how it's done. You paint boats that way that have been barrier coated not cars. Basically polly paint plasticoated primer they went with an epoxy primer from a manufacturer that had just got involved in epoxy and knew F-all. That's the truth too and the engine bay was basically done like a spray on filler job. That's gunna crack off within 3yr with heat cycles mark my words. Too much paint thickness for any single coat.
@@ChifundoBandathe funny part is that Charlie was probably behind the camera 😂
Totally agree,the new 'plastic fantastic' stuffs all just blablabla to me, they are all crass, as desirable as standing on a plug.
Really, @@jowarrior? I didn't think the camera work was that bad.
XJ Coupe really has to be one of the most beautiful cars ever made
My late father used to say, "Every pleasure has its price".
Harry's chequebook doing a great job supporting the UK tuning and restoration industry!
Still my favourite car in the garage. 👍
Whilst I feel Harry's pain on getting this fuelling sorted, it's always nice to see stuff on the Jag again, it's so gorgeous
Damn straight, it's a beautiful machine, even that pesky motor is.
Personally I've always loved the series 1, not to impugn this car.
The world needs these master mechanics you interview! The good news is that you can afford BOTH to be a farmer and to maintain such a fine collection of cars. In this case, it is wonderful that you can 'resto-mod' this coupe to be as functional as originally intended.
Thank you, Harry and Tom, for this great video. Tom's expertise and discussion about the process of the conversion was fun to listen to. I thoroughly enjoy when Harry goes to see all these wonderful specialists keeping good-looking classics on the road with some practical restomods and other enhancements. 👍
I had an 84 xjs and I never had a problem with misfiring. It had some things that needed attention and i worked on it myself. Typical maintenance issues like fuel injector hoses needed replaced and ignition amplifier went bad. My ecu went bad causing the oxygen sensors to stop working, It's hard to believe your car has so many issues after all that work you put into it. Expensive fix, but it probably will run much better and the mpg increase is impressive.
I really appreciate Harry's journey on his classics, not least the costs! Looking forward to seeing this running.
Good luck with the upgrade Harry! A gorgeous car that deserves a proper working engine!
Interesting video. I don't really agree re the unreliability of D-Jet, although I think the Jag system is more complex than the one fitted to Mercedes. It is often unfairly disparaged by garages who do not fully understand it - when new it was the best EFI system in existence. The statement that the MAP is unavailable / not repairable I believe is incorrect, I had a D-Jet MAP rebuilt last year and it made a big improvement to the running of the car. Most the parts can be brought back to spec. At a 12k price point, I would be inclined to seek a second opinion.
Agreed. I'd feel a lot more convinced if this bloke could actually articulate what exactly is going wrong. I wouldn't be satisfied with broad statements like "sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you fix one thing, then another thing breaks." It's not a scientific discussion. Somebody who really gets it will know what fails and what the remedy is. Or at least be able to articulate it and explain why it's not able to be remedied. The fact that some people have their system working shows there is a gap in understanding between mechanics. The fact that the new system will work brilliantly has nothing to do with why he couldn't get the old system working. And the fact that so many people chime in saying that they couldn't get their's working has nothing to do with it either. The fact that some people can get them working says it all. It comes down to knowledge and skill.
Once you have done all the hardware and set all the linkages , it tends to be wiring issue after that
Problem is once you have found one broken wire you need to do all of it
Not sure which would be cheaper to fix though 🤔
@@andoletube Also agreed, and I've been through this same experience way too many times as well. The original parts work fine for decades and then break down due to old age, then I go to a "specialist" who is really the most prominent person who I can find on Google. They then charge me thousands on replacing a part which either doesn't fix the problem at all, or just as bad, the replacement part only lasts about 2 years when the original lasted 20. But because I'm very reasonable I don't really complain, and I end up paying thousands chasing an issue around, and I always have a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that somewhere there's some old guy in a shed who knows exactly how these things work, and can rebuild them flawlessly for a tiny fraction of the cost. And I always wonder why I can never find those true specialists, and I worry that as they age and retire that their knowledge is being lost to time (or just because they never knew many people in the first place so their knowledge was never spread). And then I'm just left Googling "specialists" to sink thousands of pounds (and loads of time going back and forth) into fixing problems that should be diagnosable and fixable first time. Also why are we paying top money for dodgy second hand parts of "OEM spec" parts which only last a fraction of the time of the genuine parts?
@@alembic1105 Hello from the canary islands Alembic, retired motorsport engineer here. Your comment and @classiced1416 are absolutely spot on. You really have to search around to find the old boys that truly understand these systems and that aren't sick of cars and still feel happy to work on them. Normally they are so worn and tired of such a unrewarding job that they simply refuse to work on the things after retirement. So ...I don't want to be mean to this "jag specialist" but I have a feeling he is more of an engine builder specialist rather than a electronics systems or classic injection expert. I say this because it left me wondering when he showed he was reinstalling rebuilt but still medicore 1st generation bosch injectors back on the new emerald setup, bosch inj from this era have ferrous internals that tend to rust because of the ethanol content in "modern" fuels and their spray nozzles are rubbish in atomization capacity. When working on my old classics I replace them with 4th gen injectors that have full stainless steel internals and laser cut micro multi nozzles that do a stunning job and come cheap if you manage to buy them at a breakers, last set for a bmw e23 735i I own cost me just 50quid with a cleaning service done before installation, also treated the metal tank with an ethanol proof resin, installed a ethanol resistan fuel pump and also replaced all the rubber fuel lines with 100% ethanol proof lines that should last a lifetime. So when I heard this chap say he was reinstalling inappropriate 90's injectors for modern fuels I kind of thought he is not a great engine diagnostics kinda guy and more of a engine builder. something tells me the jag fuel pumps are not ethanol proof either and that the fuel tank is probable mild steel too that will rust with ethanol fuels inside it if not treated. So, I'm no expert in old injection systems but when I need to repair the k-jetronic system on a merc 190 16v I own I call an old boy retired from the local mercedes dealer I was lucky to know one day, Mr Jesus Sosa. He pops by from the neighbouring island and works his magic on the car, also teaching me in the process, cars run like a treat after he has dealt with them, He understands the systems intimately and we even repaired an old diaphragm with some special ethanol proof diaphragm material I managed to source online so as to future proof it. You can clearly see Mr Jesus understands each component and manages to explain why they are at fault and how to repair them.... something that didn't come across in this video for a jaguar specialist. The emerald ecu also allows you to use different injector types thanks to the full adaptability of its internal injector drivers, so you wouldn't even need to worry about low or high impedance injectors or installing higher cc injectors that suit the considerable mods this motor has and that make adapting junkyard injectors a walk in the park (for my classics with standard ECUs I must match the exact impedance, cc output, spray pattern and injector body size). I really would have liked harry to go on a jag forum and investigate if other specialists where available for a second opinion and alternate solutions, 10k is A LOT of money and the car looses it's original flair/value considering it had a renowned classic tuner setup installed, it´s gone from a splendid classic super special jewel to a restomod jag.... and i'm afraid its because he truly has not encountered an authentic classic injection specialist. Probably a sublime engine builder, but not a deeply knowledgable classic jaguar specialist.
@@ValladolidArde Wow, you clearly know your stuff. And lots of what you've said really stood out to me, and it really contrasts with what the mechanic in this video was saying. When I read your posts the things that stand out to me are research, diagnose, repair, ethanol proof, rust, modern! These are concepts completely missing in the video. The mechanic in this video felt to me like he just doesn't want to know about any of that, and he's trying to use a sledge hammer to swat a fly. And it's a shame as you say because it was a really sweet setup beforehand anyway, and now it's going to lose a lot of the originality and provenance, and there are still so many blind spots to the solutions proposed. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if they still have exactly the same problems after doing all the work because of something silly like the fuel pumps anyway!
If at first we dont succeed....love your dilligence for these old flawed masterpieces
Seriously enjoyed this episode. Good humour, and some nicely worded self-mockery! Well done.
You're doing all the stuff everybody dreams of doing to their engines Harry! 👍
I've had an Emerald on 2x Caterhams and a Cerbera - I wouldn't have anything else on a project car now. I love them. I have always felt other systems over-complicate things. I could start my cars on the button, with no throttle feathering, even on a very cold day. And I raced one Caterham and the TVR - I never felt there was anything missing.
Yes, I'm a bit of a fanboy of both the ECU and Dave & Karl.
Whilst I understand trying to retain the original injection system, once you commit to the new, I bet you felt relieved. It'll take away all the doubts about whether you'll get home (although it doesn't on a TVR but that's because there are so many other "opportunities" there).
Not something truly modern like a Haltech that can use drive-by-wire throttles with all the benefits they convey? Haltech's Nexus R5 can drive all 12 injectors and all 12 coils, unlike the Emerald, and also has modern niceties like proper cruise control and flex-fuel (continuously senses and recalibrates for the ethanol content in fuel, no more switching maps/draining tanks). Frankly the Emerald looks like very poor value for money
@@jsleeio agreed. If I was fitting a standalone to that Jag I'd be wanting dual DBW throttle control and dual widebands.
The Emerald seems a poor choice but I noticed Dyno Torque also use them on everything. I assume their tech support is second to none.
For similar money you could buy a maxx street that much more modern with more to offer. The emerald seems expensive and outdated by comparison
@@jsleeio Agreed. They should stop messing about with old basic stuff and just install a Haltech. I suspect it might be because the shop is going with what they know works (as the Emerald appears to), therefore making it a straightforward installation with no learning required for either the shop staff or the cars owner. That is totally understandable, but new tech really is better and it really pays to keep up with it. A fully customisable ECU with all the options can really wake up an old engine, you can tune the bejesus out of it and get it running really sweet, far better than it ever did on the factory setup. Fully customisable ECUs are a legitimate performance part now, so much more than just a "brain" that runs things. The Haltech units are surprisingly inexpensive, and their aftermarket/tuning support is on a level that most businesses can only dream about. They can tune your car from the other side of the world via the internet while it's on the dyno. There's no excuse for not using one really.
@@turbowankel1264 yes most of that $10k will probably be in wiring loom, both making & installing the new loom, and removing the old one. The Emerald itself seems to be relatively cheap, under 900GBP? But it's just so primitive and I don't understand why you'd spend so much fixing a V12 and NOT have full 12-cyl sequential injection. Never heard of the MaxxECU Street but I see it can't do 12cyl sequential either
By far the best car in your collection Harry, you and all involved must be so proud ❤
I've had a couple of classics with fully sequential ignition and injection with coil on plug ignition. The way they drive after a conversion is like a night and day difference. They drive so well with engine management it is incredible. Apart from the driveability you have more torque across a wider range, more power and much better fuel consumption.
I'll just quote myself from a year ago, when work on that engine was in process:
"I'd go for a full custom engine management system with individual ingnition coils. That old wiring harness, the distributor and the injectors just gives me the creeps..."
I've worked on Jaguars since I was 6 years old, my first job was lying in the trunk of my fathers mk2 and banging the fuel pump with a screwdriver when it stalled. When I got older, I transitorised his XJ6 fuel pumps, fixed the SUs and my last job for him was sorting the ignition and piping & wiring nightmare of his V12 XJS.
Saw your comment in part 4. You were right.👍
Shame Harry didn't take your advise.
I love all the so called experts saying Tom doesn't know what he's talking about (I wonder how many of them have rebuilt such a complex engine). Anyone who actually knows Jags knows how dodgy the V12 could be. I remember admiring a couple of XJs at a local museum and hearing their owner saying how the V12 was a nightmare to keep running well... I used Tom for years when I had my XKR, he's a former Jaguar master technician and really knows his stuff, especially as he also races them. I totally agree with the above and to be fair Harry himself says he should have listened (although I understand his desire to keep it original). For a car that has been mechanically improved/modernised for reliability it makes a lot of sense to sort the engine in this way vs spend ages trying to track a fault and end up either not fixing it or a new one occurring. Reliability is key unless it's an 'original' show car you trailer everywhere... The fact is, some Jaguar design was just crap design/done on a budget and there are better options out there when you have to replace stuff...
I'm assuming this is the same/similar engine, but some lovely detail here... www.jagweb.com/aj6eng/djetronic.php
These videos are so good, especially when they highlight the skill good mechanics have. Always so fascinating.
Such a classy car, I am so pleased that he is taking good care of it. The two Lister XJC I saw in their paint shop were amongst the meanest looking road legal cars I have ever seen.
I wish you would do videos like this more often. Any content on cars that's not just Harrys view on the new must haves.
I hate to see all these headaches because I know how excited you were to get this done. Hopefully you get much improved reliability and some significant power gains.
Makes so much sense to dump all the terrible old engine management tech for the vastly superior modern systems - as pointed out in the video, so much of the old stuff isn't even available anymore - or you have to make do with poor quality refreshed parts, or even worse quality replicas.
@@Beer_Dad1975 It`s a shame that old plumbing has to go. It looked so beautiful but if it`s not working then...well.
@@ElliHarper It depends on what you are willing to accept - I grew up in the era of this technology, and worse, where you would hope the damn thing would start in the morning, and on long trips it wasn't unusual to have to pull over and mess around with the points to keep the thing running, or climbing a mountain pass and finding your car running out of puff because it has no way to adjust the air/fuel ratio to deal with high altitude... Not to mention the lack of fuel efficiency. Modern crank timing & sensor driven engine management is something I find amazing - when was the last time you had to worry about your car starting on a cold morning? Or dying on the side of the road on the way to the ski field?
Of course if you are a purist - and nothing wrong with that - who enjoys the challenge of keeping an old car running in original condition - then that's a hobby in itself.
@@ElliHarper I guess the parts just wear out - they might work fine if you don't disturb them & keep air, fuel, oil etc running over them with regular driving - but then you pull them off to rebuild the engine, they end up sitting for months on end (I think Harry mentioned 10 months due to covid) - gaskets dry and harden, diaphragms dry and crack and so on. Often when you pull something old and well used apart, it just won't go back together the same.
I have implemented this change on my 85 XJS V12. The poor old Engineers had to “make do” with the technology available at the time to control the timing and fuelling. The modern programmable ECU’s opens vast possibilities for control over the engine management courtesy of the high speed microprocessor’s responding to inputs from modern instrumentation with modern software. The possibilities are immense…and the engine can be configured to run sweetly with full control over all the important parameters. Harry’s gonna be very happy with the result!!!!!
These passion project videos are absolutely fascinating Harry. V informative. Not sure if I like these even more than the long road-trip videos.
I am sure harry will have a long trip planned after the gremlin are gone, I will be wating for that!
I absolutely love the Jaguar XJ12 coupe what a fantastic car and that one has cool number plate
Thanks Harry i hope you will love it when it is all done.
Had one of these in the shop. Only six injectors firing. No toggling bank 1 bank 2 with the relay on the firewall. In the trunk the computer harness makes a 90 degree bend. The wires on the outside of that bend were stretched so tight the wires broke in the harness. A previous repair was found. But it was too short and pulled apart again.
On an 85 XJC v12. Slow overheat. The 87a terminal on the blue diode relay shaped device to control the aux fan had the insulated quick disconnect miss the terminal completely. 2 two fan switches and the ac compressor control circuit never got thru the diode block to the aux relay.
Sounds like a great solution Harry. It's a lot of money though.
For anyone wondering if there is a cheaper alternative for the Jag V12, the 5.3 XJS from about 1989 had the 'Marelli' ignition system, which has some modern elements, camshaft sensor, slightly better injectors etc, & it is a whole heap more modern/reliable than the older stuff in the XJS/XJ-C etc & probably not that difficult to fit to an older engine.
Jag made loads of XJS for the 1989 model year so should be lots available, & crucially 1989 was still pre-catalytic converter.
@@DontCryAboutIt eh? The v12 was used until 1996
Midweek HG is always a treat, thanks.
I dont like this chap.... I have the feeling ....this is going to be a horrible excuse to spend loads if money....
I have first hand experience, and you're correct.
@@alembic1105 sad, I am a big fan of Harry spending money... Wasting money not so....some scandinavian fellow has a plug and play set... would have been better.
WIth a little time, and a whole lot of money, you too can have a sorted manual XJC V12 Jag! Honestly, I'm so glad you're doing this. You clearly love the car, it's great content (not to mention advice) and in the end the car will meet or exceed your expectations!
Harry,
I feel your pain old fruit!
We have all gone a certain route thinking it better to stay original, especially with the previous upgrades on this car.
Sometimes we learn the hard way it is better to listen to the experts who do this day in day out.
When it all gets done it will be fantastic, expensive but fantastic.
It will also be very rare and unique to you. Little comfort I know, but how many manual V12 coupes out there new or old - now there is a challenge for a comparison right there!
Lucky to find someone so clued up on these old V12s
My favourite of all your cars. Hope you get it sorted at last.
Fascinating insight to the classic Jag .. Loyalty to the original system has been costly indeed in time and money but looks like it will be incredible when finished. It's been a learning curve for sure.
The problem which Lucas had in 1970 was producing fuel injectors and a control system with the dynamic range from engine tickover to full chat. It took many years to crack, with help. Hence the original inlet system with four large Stromberg carbs. Remember, no computers or sensors to measure everything then. Mixing and matching systems creates headaches.
Mount the old manifolds and injectors on a plaque and get them hung up on the wall harry 👍🏻
This specialist talks a good game. My guess is you will encounter further problems down the line.
Really interesting video. Harry was clearly frustrated with the V12. Really good how you have kept the engine and not put in a more modern engine. Can't wait for part 2.
I find a lot of remanufactured stuff isn't up to OEM spec. Shock mounts on my XKR only last about 3 years, original ones lasted about 20 years or so. You need to make you're own polybushes for them if you want them to last a reasonable amount of time. It always kind of bothered me you have to pay VAT on repair labour.
Agreed, this is by far the biggest problem. All the original bits on my XK8 seemed to last about 20 years, and then every new "oem spec" part lasts about 2 years. I would love to be able to actually buy genuine parts, it would be more cost effective in the long run.
@@alembic1105 I think the OEM shock mounts are just age related because the foam just breaks down with time. It changes colour, hardenes and crumbles. The new ones are just crap. Welsh in the US did a poly bush for the shock mount but those also only lasted a few years, there is a guy on the forums you can send you're old ones to and he will cast a bush inside them and those last a long time apparently but he's in Austrialia I think. There is a market for a poly bush for the shock mount so I hope someone just starts selling drop in parts on Ebay or something.
Buy Japanese stuff. Japanese don't mess about they don't use vinyl or polly based resins they use proper epoxy resin they don't skimp on stuff. I'm not talking about buying a Honda part made in the UK I mean source out the component on the Japanese market and look at who's the high end stuff it's easy it's basically Eurocarparts full of the best gear you can buy once translated so you can see what you are getting. America has decent stuff for old jags as long as its the "made in America" stuff and genuine UK bespoke stuff is good too but youl be paying out your hole for it to be genuine bespoke UK level build. You cannot moan one bit if you fit any ebay part to your classic or restoration project you really can't. In the boat building world you cannot even trust the West Systems 105 you buy, it comes dated from 3-5yr been sold on from a UK boat builder yard at the 3yr mark. Still works but ain't fresh and needs heated to over 60deg to force the crystals back to liquid form. Right so you have the choice of brand new fresh liquids or materials or stuff that's been sold on repeatedly from ebay? And thats just your epoxy for fiberglassing.
@@bigduphusaj162 Thanks for the advice. Do you have any idea where I could try and find a shock mount that would fit? I wander a different car perhaps uses the same mount?
Most interesting - Getting old classics with updated fuel/EMS ignition system!
The exhaust sounds incredible 🤌
Oh dear, poor Harry, I could hear and feel his disappointment over this extra big expense. Especially after all the other engine work that’s been done. Once you’ve gone this far though you just have to finish and hope this is the last big bill. (we hope)
For the folks having a bit of a pop at Tom Lenthall....some thoughts for your consideration:
Harry's objective was an top-notch XJ12 that he can periodically pull out the barn with confidence he could drive it to South of France....without Charlie tagging along with a Landie and a trailer to ensure it gets back home. (he has first-hand experience of that disaster scenario - check-out the recalcitrant Testarossa en-route to Sahara).
Tom appears well attuned to his customer's goals and aspirations - during the rebuild he knew Harry is not the type of classic enthusiast who finds their pleasure in weekends heroically spannering away to gain an intimate knowledge of the inherent and recurring failure points of early FI systems (and their reliance on unobtainable spare parts).
Go to the vid at 8 minutes in - Tom hits the nail on the head - "I can fix it for you but you will likely just be chasing unreliability..." to which Harry responds "I've absolutely had enough..."
Now....about the cost...yes, it's an expensive enhancement...but there are quite a lot of parts involved, plus custom fabrication, labour and then rolling-road set-up...that's quite involving for a V12. The Tom Lenthall website quotes price list for classic Jaguar work at £80+VAT per hour. On that basis, Tom isn't the cheapest classic workshop around but appears to deliver a wealth of experience and sage advice at a rate considerably less than my Merc dealer charges for routine servicing.
Thanks for the video. I'm sad to hear it's not perfect given the investment already - but thanks for the honesty in showing the real world issues which can crop up. Also great to see the heroes and suppliers keeping these fine works of art on the road.
here in the US everything complex used to be "fixed" with a 4-Barrel carb. i guess that was fine when gas was cheap. now they have EFI 4-barrels. by far the most common "fix" nowadays is a junkyard LS. I remember the discussions when the engine was built. I always felt the top of the engine with all the wires and tubes was just too messy to look good. now it is getting a modernized system. Hopefully it also looks good.
I cant wait to see and hear this fantastic car at its best.
7:08 and also that pic made my day. Thanks Harry and good luck.
"...it'll usually run 10-12,000."
And you could feel the air run out of the room as Harry tried to put up a good face.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen Harry quite so nervous about a project, just hope that they’ve found a solution and he doesn’t have to throw more spondoolies at it.
He's not nervous as such, he's hesitant because he can sense he is being taken for a ride. That mechanic is just doing an upsell, and blaming his inability to properly reassemble what was a working system on the car.
@@froggy0162 I tend to agree that the problems are user error. Most of these factory systems work just fine. I'm surprised he didn't bring it to Iain Tyrrell.
@@froggy0162 It's not an upsell. Harry wants an easier life and something that works. This is the way to achieve it.
@@spacemanclips No, he wanted those original and unique parts retained and a working engine. He is being up sold by being told the old stuff cant work, despite it working before it was pulled apart. I call bullshit.
A massively expensive and complicated modernisation might yield some performance gains, but it is NOT the only way to make it work. The original components will work if you apply the correct effort and attitude.
I don't see why they couldn't just fit a modern ECU with modern injector drivers, a 60-2 crank trigger and retain the entire intake manifold. People do that all the time.
Harry, been watching your vids for years and read your articles since few decades ago and all so I don't think you don't know how to estimate if something is worthy and how to pick a mechanic. But I do not understand that the system was working before and now not and that others have it working but here it doesn't work. 10-12k pounds plus VAT is unreasonably high for an injection system imo. Mystification of an injection system that's decades old and in third decade of 21st century is insulting imo. There should be no "sometimes its working and sometimes not", there's should be a clear conclusion to what's causing the issues.
Geez, it better run like a dream after all this extra work.
I don't think I'd have been quite so understanding having spent the money you have Harry, but fair play for keeping at it and it makes good content 😂
Really enjoyed that one Harry. Also nice to see the AJ16SC making a cameo, such an underrated power unit.
What a stunning XJC, not sure I'd want all the modern gizmos but I suppose if it gets it running properly then I can see why it'd appeal. Look forward to seeing/hearing the end result 👍
I am still a big fan of carburettors. I love the simplicity, and in my opinion they work so well on most classics for the mileage I do, that I do not regard EFI as worth the bother. I love the Weber DCOE, and on many British cars the good old SU still works very well!
@@ralphmillais5237 I remember setting up the four Strombergs on a Series 1 XJ12 I owned in the 1990s, a lovely old car that was. I think I'd go down the period many-carb option if it were mine, but there's no denying the efficiency of a modern setup.
@@ralphmillais5237 Can't say I agree at all; the SU, with its moving piston and lack of accelerator pump, is simply awful for throttle response and airflow, which is why racing engines of the day went to Webers. Now they are a good carb but hell to set up for road use with their complex staging. EFI is so superior for tuning that it is a no-brainer. However on british cars like the Morrie Minor where the engines are low power anyway, the SU is fine and easy to set up.
@@racketman2u I can see where you are coming from and do not entirely disagree but I have to push back a little. The SU carb performs better than you suggest, but you are correct the Weber gave better power. I am a massive fan of the Weber/Dellorto DCOE and have used them for years on a variety of engines and whilst many are afraid of them and say they cannot be set up properly I have to say in all modesty that I get DCOEs running so well that I do not consider EFI worth the cost for my purposes. Careful attention needs to be given to the progression phase. However, I have been at it since the 1980s so I have the experience. Having said all this, there is a reason all modern cars are EFI, it is objectively superior, so in this you are undeniably correct, but for me personally it is not so much better that I can be bothered with it. I love Carbs! Best.
Sounds great with the new exhaust, be glad for you when its all up and running again.
I think with these older cars fitting more modern injection and ignition is the best thing you can do just makes them so more usable and fun to drive.
Harry. I’m sorry your cadding about machine is still poorly. But…. I do love seeing all these people who actually know what they are talking about and are helping to keep alive these machines that make us smile 😊
A salutary reminder to anyone thinking of running a classic that it's not for the feint hearted...
100% agree.
We are still paying for the sins of British Leyland....regards from Athens Greece...
I'm not joking here, modern BMW, Merc and Audi are worse. Been a mechanic since 1988 and have never seen more disposable junk than what the Germans are making now, not even BL we're this bad at least they didn't need new engines and gearboxes every 30k miles. The B58 is an abysmal engine it's as bad as N47 but nobody admits it. B58 is the main reason BMW are bottom of the barrel in the reliability charts and have a astronomical engine failure rate.
@@bigduphusaj162 Looks like the bean-counters are saving money to pay the shareholders. If I was going for a Merc, it would be a W124, having had five in the 90s and early 00s. Mercedes Benz at the top of its game, only my opinion.
Harry your videos are always a delight especially as you talk as much about motorcycles as cars.
About this one: If I remember well your engine was always running fine on all its twelve cylinders before the rebuild which was clearly mandatory seeing the condition of the cylinder heads among others...
It is thus evident that the problem lies in renewed parts. As an electronic engineer I will never understand how all these Aston, Jaguar, Lamborghini, etc gurus do to keep things up and alive without any oscilloscope visible in their workshops as I can't figure out how I could do my job of embeeded systems designer without a torque wrench and a lathe.
Anyway I can only and very honestly wish you the best luck for the future of your fantastic coupé V12
Harry, get a scope on the engine and find out exactly what's causing the problem. Keep the original system, I never had one that I couldn't fix. The new system, does it have even have built in diagnostics? This looks like a Holley injection set up (Bad). Heat is the biggest culprit, imagine the electronics in the valley!
Sobering and yet enthralling. The realities of love...yes?: This Jag is destined to become a celebrated and adored feature of your channel, Harry. As I watch from afar, almost perpetually scrapping spare cash to keep my slightly more modest, yet cherished classic fleet going, I can say with my hand on heart and my wallet weeping, that I would not have it any other way and for those of us who watch your video's and avidly follow the restoration editions in particular, we feel your pain but know you'll feel it was worth it when you let that cat out of the cage on those glorious twisty roads around your manor. Best of luck and I recommend a diet of bread and water- my partner leaves a slice and modest glass outside of the shed every now and again, but revels in those weekend trips beside me when I'm not ensconced in fettling one of them. Regards from Australia.
Scrap the injection and retro-fit the Strombergs Harry😂😂. Joking aside, I don't think even the purists would object to more reliability from an updated fuelling system. 👍 I'm no expert by any means but the OEM FI system always looked overly complex to me and a bit of a plumber's nightmare before you even get to the electrics. Hopefully the new system will be fit and forget!👍👍
Nice update on what's going on with your lovely xjc v12..V12 ..NICE .. would like to see Tom's xjc and the work his done on his one
Sadly there are people who despite being warned beforehand will insist that 'it was fine before you touched it so it's your fault' and refuse to listen to any other opinion. Well done to Harry for being so reasonable.
Haha……I don’t know what I’ve done but let me sell you all of this new stuff……haha…mug
This is my favorite car of all your cars Harry, glad to see it getting the attention it deserves
100% true gibbon... Sometimes sh.t Happens and you'll never know why.... Anyway, huge conversion, Big job, good decision Harry.
Oh Harry just aswell you have loads of money, cause this is going to cost a bomb.
I see both sides, if your the customer and it did work before hand you feel let down. But the experience of the man who works on them day in day out should probably take his advice from the start.
Harry, I must confess! you absolutely sold this car for me, that v12 sounds just amazing and damn it is fast :) wow :)
I've worked on V12 Jags for many years and have one of my own too and this just doesn't smell right. This seems to me to be a case of cracking a nut with a road roller. The basic premise of a fuel injection system is a pressurised fuel rail where injectors just release the pressure when provided with a 12 volt pulse at the right time. If you have fuel pressure and the pulse timing is right then the system just can't NOT work. A motor that starts progressively to run on fewer cylinders is quite obviously suffering fuel starvation which is usually one of four things, a faulty pump ( very common) , a clogged filter also very common because of silt in the tank) , a failing pressure regulator or a faulty Throttle position sensor. If the car was running okay and then started to misbehave then it's because of a component failure. I've never failed to get a V12 Jag running right and i don't buy this explanation that the system never worked properly because it did and does when maintained just like any other vehicle on the road.
I believe that with time and environmental pressures, modern ECU upgrades will be viewed the same as disc brake upgrades: essential if you want to enjoy driving safely/responsibly your classic.
Harry...when you get this car finished, and I'm speaking in the name of all your subscribers, we all deserve to be driven by you on those fantastic countryside English roads! Ahahahahah! Brilliant car! Congrats for the effort Harry!
"... _I'm speaking in the name of all your subscribers_ ...". No, you definitely are _not_ .
@@nickturner2813 ahahahahah....ok! Of course not!
Hi Harry
Love your videos mate, I’m wondering why you can’t simply run the AJ manifolds and throttle bodies, machine or make adapters to fit modern Bosch EV injectors & make custom Fuel rails etc, then simply run all the other Tom’s ignition, ECU, chopper wheel, sensors etc! I’m thinking that the modified AJ manifolds will likely flow more with the internal mods & ram tubes that they have than the stock 6ltr items that Tom wants to use don’t! In my experience putting bigger throttle bodies and machining out the lip in the manifold makes little to no difference in performance when the restriction is the manifold itself! Also aesthetically the AJ manifolds will look correct! These mods I’m suggesting aren’t hard to do! I do these kinds of things to performance cars in my own business in Australia. Anyway hope all goes well Cheers
I feel your frustration harry but I’m sure this man will put it right and you will have a 2 door fire breathing beast 👍
I suppose this is a lesson for us all - always listen to the specialist! They know the engines so much better than we do! I think Harry wanted to keep the original system because it had already been modded in period. I just watched the original video where Tom is rebuilding the engine and the main thing bothering Harry seemed to be not going for a 7 litre crankshaft!
Poor Charlie, taking all the heat. Fess up Harry!!!
MIND BOGGLING that some genius decided that was the right powerplant for the Scorpion tank - wonder what problems the army encountered.
I love the jag, too bad to see new content on it at your expense. But it's a thing of beauty. I still think it would look absolutely smashing with a subtle golden coach stripe.
I owned a series one Daimler 3.6
It was by far the most difficult car I’ve owned
Everything I fixed broke something else
Beautiful car though
Was it an engine conversion
I love these problems - those of us with limited budgets always accept we're kicking problems down the road. But to see Harry, with 10 x deeper pockets suffering similar issues somehow makes me feel better about my leaks and splutters... hope this sorts itself out!
I can imagine things get quite complicated with 12cyls and carbs most probably wouldn’t even notice there’s a fault just realised it’s injected but you get the point !😊
Good luck Harry!
If it were me I'd be taking it to Iain Tyrell or elsewhere... I do not know how TL has the bottle to quote a £15k+ "upgrade" after a no doubt ludicrously expensive engine rebuild resulting in what boils down to basically an unsatisfactory outcome.
Great video as usual but here are my reservations about the "upgrade".... The existing system worked prior to the engine rebuild so there is no reason why it shouldn't do now. Yes I am sure there are a combinaton of challenges, each needing a creative solution. The engine work should have included having the existing system tested and subsequently made to work. All running issues post rebuild should have been taken care of under warranty... I would imagine the original rebuild would have cost an extraordinary amount of money.
If this was behind closed doors it would be easy for Harry to negotiate or express concerns/reservations but when it's all there on youtube with thousands of viewers it suddenly gets very awkward.
You do appreciate that Harry only puts on UA-cam what he wants to put on UA-cam. It's not as if there's a Panorama film crew following him round investigating him.
@@harryspeakup8452 no sh*t Sherlock! I’m sure artistic license is a factor as well… I take what I watch on UA-cam with a pinch of salt mostly.
Fantastic vid, Mr. M. Thanks! I learned some stuff, but most especially I like the fact that you show your hand on these jobs. The costs, the benefits, the value you put into your fondness for the specific car.
When you know it's a keeper like this V12 is, the first drive will tell you it was well worth the cost and wait. Looking forward to an epic road trip soon in this Harry.
Hats off to Harry for almost single handedly keeping the UK’s V12s on the road, where so many others have given up in flurry of bills and fuel costs!
Charlie’s in trouble 😂 when we were teenagers my brother was questioned about why my dads Jaguar XJ8 needed a new set of rear tyres after 1500 miles 😂
Such a beautiful car!
The spend on this car is eye-watering. I'm of an age that I remember seeing these cars on the road when they were new and more clearly remember how they quickly deteriorated. As a result, I don't have any desire to own one but I admire Harry's determination to get his sorted.
It'll be super reliable once the modern injection and ignition systems are in it - comparable to a modern car.
My dad had a 4 door one of the same vintage(6 cylinder) and he kept it for 20 yrs. The only big spend was to the suspension when he had a big operation and didn’t drive it for a year.
@@Beer_Dad1975 carbs on old jag v12 or constant issues. He's already modernised the fuel supply it doesn't work
Yes, mate of mine had a V12 back in the 1980s. It was wonderful for 10% of the time and even then a nightmare of problems the rest of the time He couldn't wait to get rid of it.
@@bigduphusaj162 LOL, have you ever owned a car with multiple carbs? I've only ever had a few twin carb, and they are bad enough, constantly fucking around trying to keep them in tune and balanced, trying to deal with vapor lock when you are pushing the engine in hot conditions, poor lambda leading to terrible performance at altitude etc. Strombergs are terrible, SU's are only slightly better - in the end I always converted to Webbers, which were fairly good, but still not a patch on a modern fuel injection system, and expensive to boot. Now days if I was restoring a car & it was in the budget, for sure I'd go full ECU controlled fuel and ignition.
Carbs are old, shit technology that should only be used on small displacement engines for lawn care - OR if you are going for absolute originality - which as I mentioned earlier, is what some people love to do & that's great.
Harry didn't convert to a modern system, he did a partial conversion on the ignition and tried to restore the original awful 1970's original fuel injection system - which yeah, by this time in its life is no doubt a lot worse than a set of carbs.
Did that chap say "£10,000-12,000"?!!
Crikey that's a lot for new fuel injection! Then there's the exhaust system...
I'm surprised that there wasn't an option to modernise the fuelling system using the old manifold with injector adapters and a new control system aka haltech or similar ?
not really sure you need those massive throttle bodies, just reduces the air velocity and makes it horrible part/mid throttle.
Rover V8 will do easy 300bhp on a single 72mm throttle body, they will do 280bhp on the original 65mm but they start to become a restriction (assuming you binned the afm)
This video really puts me off this garage. They could surely use the existing wiring loom if they understood what they were doing. It’s just a bunch of wires, as long as there is enough, reuse them with the new connectors. Seems a lot easier than “ripping the interior out”. Also there wasn’t a problem before they worked on the car, now they are getting paid to fix a problem they created.
Darn it all Harry. My jag was a hole in the Tarmac to throw money down, I’m sorry you are travelling a similar road.
Bloody hell harry, another great video, although you looked a little bit dejected when discussing price of the draguar, don't get down arry, it will be working right proper soon.....😊
I'm confused..
Wasn't this a fully rebuilt engine a few miles ago. ?
Did the engine builder fuck up the job. ?
Would have been good to find the root cause of the misfire. Great video very interesting.
I'm getting Harry Enfield vibes from the mechanic! Just waiting for him to say, "yeah mush job's a good 'un. Bish bash bosch! Aww right mate!"
10 grand! That still sounds like too much to upgrade just the ECU and wiring. I don’t know, I feel like Harry’s getting ripped off 🤷♂️
I took my old xk8 to Tom lenthall and he was more than fair. Sadly the manual conversion didn’t work out. The car was too rotten!
Sorry Harry... I just can't ware the fact you are throwing out the original fueling system which by your own admission is a gorgeous piece of engineering, simply because this guy can't fix it... permanently. To suggest you can't get the old fueling (and ignition system) in original spec working reliably is rubbish.. expensive rubbish in your case.
Nah, new mechanic time. I have no interest in any mechanic that blames the machine.
It’s essentially a simple system. Sure the new one will perform better, but not being able to successfully make the old one work is just indicative of a lazy mind.
Well that was uncomfortable viewing.
Not all well between tuner and Harry I would guess.
Shame to hear his thoughts on the Emerald ecu ... always thought it was a great high end bit of kit especially with a rolling road set up by Dave Walker himself...highly regarded.
Anyway interested to see how it all works out for the 2nd time.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Emerald system, sure they don't do the whole control every microsecond of the engine's operation, but and it's a bit but they work and are in my experience reliable and very easy to set up. I think its the whole developed in a small garage by a guy who wrote in various magazines thing, that makes people look at them oddly. The last thing Harry needs is someone on £100 an hour sitting messing with a Holley or Haltech which for road use would be complete overkill and without changing a pile more parts you would be lucky to get any more useable power anyway.
Finally a vid that isn't an ad for some .1%er's new buying prospects.