Hi Rob, I’m just moving from a analogue bike to an e bike, and have been studying motors before buying in the next few months. This video is absolutely fantastic, and has provided a brilliant and comprehensive overview of all the things I would be interested in. Well done. Keep up the good work. 😀
Fully agreed this video is excellent just by watching it, definitely help me understand better what should i look for, when i'll be choosing to get an ev bike.. Tanks a lot Rob.. Safe ridings ! ;0)
Here's the 2022 test! Power / Noise / Integration and Reliability included in the vid! PS - I tried and Tried to get the new Rocky Mountain but sadly they were unable to send one. For the hill climb I never reached the top out motor cut off speed on the drag races- the hill was too steep. Hope you like the vid, happy riding!! Rob.
I love how customizable the Shimano EP8 RS motor is in my Rise. I tweak it for the type of trails and ride duration. Have a Grail:ON eTap with the Bosch CX Speed (28mph) on order. It will serve 3 duties: Commuter/Gravel Bike/Road Bike. Big miles planned this year. Hopefully it can be adjusted to fit the day.
It would be good to know how they all feel beyond the limiter with a power meter pedal on the flat at 22mph held for 30 sec same wheels tyres etc. Get back out there ... ;) PS good job on doing all this work - and big Props to John for great camera work.
Rob, you've never tried the previous one. Other ones did. It would be good to go to France, and ask to tribe to get you one to try. In the south of france, le Var, nice place to discover. I even can make the guide if necessary.
@@resetbikes2265 I love this comment! Ride all these f*n downhill bikes at 22+ on flat ground and then tell us how it felt! Rob would be in an f*ing coma. He is not an athlete if you haven't noticed.
The section on realibility was an informative addition to motor tests. It helps me avoid conditions that would raise the risk of damage. My Yamaha PWX3 will be carried over deeper water challenges on the trail.
Great vid Rob. Really engaging and an incredible amount of work to organise 🤟 Your point about the motor sounds varying from bike design to bike bike design and frame material is spot on and true. People should take note of that. Personally, I think much of Mountain Biking comes down to the support you get, as we need it!! Bosch have lots of certified service centres, my LBS is one and Bosch warranty has been the best I have experienced in the bike industry when I needed it. That associated with it's 85nM and good performance in all test categories is the end of the decision process for me
How on earth were you able to get all these bikes at the same time…? Massive undertaking, great test, large amount of relevant info (as always) there is a lot of work behind this. Thank you for that & Congratulations! Loved this video 👍
Bigger youtubers obviously get bikes with priority from the manufacturers so they can get a video out early. I'm 100% for that so I can find reviews before making a decision. :D It's still quite a lot of effort to get all these bikes together and I appreciate that a lot!
Great test Rob. I really love the Yamaha motor on my new Reign E+1. It is a big improvement to the 2021 model that I testet last year. More quiet, a bit more power and just runs and goes nicely. Sure integration milles better.
Rob, fantastic 👏 video! Your emtb channel is by far the best. So much well thought out information presented... and on all current product lines. These various tests and comparisons between the different motors and bikes makes sorting one out for purchase much easier. Thank you for sharing this information.
Recently had a buddy RUN OUT OF BATTERY on his cargo bike (Moondog Bullit) - he had to Push It. Basically un-rideable via the pedals. What happens to these 6 motors - can you pedal home when battery is completely dead - OR - are you fighting the battery and transmission to get home ????
Bosch and Shimano do pretty well in that regard. At least everything 2019 and newer. Can't say much about the others, as I barely ever see them/work on them. There's bound to be SOME extra resistance, but honestly weight is the more limiting factor. Especially on cargo bikes, where the smaller wheels/tyres don't exactly make it easier to get the thing going, plus you tend to sit lower, so you're either not using an optimal pedaling angle, or have an unusual pedal position (like pedaling forward rather than down, limiting how much gravity helps you). Loads of factors being at work there
Man I’ve been watching so many e-bike videos lately. I just bought a Cube Hybrid Reaction Pro with the Bosch CX and can’t wait to get it! Still 2 weeks till delivery lol. I feel like a child at Christmas!
@@acelectricalsecurity Same , very quiet at full power , NO rattle and super reliable , it would have put these motors to shame in the performance and noise tests! I wish more bike manufacturers would equip their bikes with Bafang motors.
Also for I would have liked to have seen a standard bike in the comparison just to see how significantly the times vary. I question the reliability info though because a service centre has no way of knowing the sales of each unit and could have some bias towards brands it doesn't deal with like Shimano. Also sound levels are not a major concern for me. I remember reading that nylon cogs are less noisy than metal cogs so if a bike has a lot of internal nylon cogs it may be quieter but that may not be good for long term reliability. Bosch in the past seemed to have a lot of nylon cogs and belts and were highly rated for low levels of sound and now they seem to have more metal cogs and no internal belts and sound levels are louder. However without Bafang in the comparison and maybe a few other mid-drive Chinese brands it's hard to make full use of the info but still an interesting video but I can't really draw any conclusions from it. I am glad he raised the issue of Bosch being a closed environment meaning excessively expensive batteries and repairs etc. For that reason I would never ever buy a Bosch based ebike. To be fair I would never ever consider any of these bikes I would be looking at Bafang just for easy spares, greater reliability and customisation. These premium ebikes are a horrendous money pit and often short life.
@@bonzobanana1 yeah you make a lot of valid points, I watched a guy replace all the bearing's in a Bosch gen 4 motor and it didn't look an easy job, very fiddly. To be fair this guy has done a bafang build and a cyc build, the cyc blew the stock bike away, and the cyc was in legal mode as well. The only thing these bikes have over a DIY kit is looks, I can't argue they look neater, but that's all really. For me I chose the bafang HD and I am very happy with it.
An excellent video, vital for someone making such a large purchase. My only issue is I would have loved to see how Rocky Mountains motor measures up to the others.
Great test again, adding on previous tests you've done. The only thing missing that i would love to see, is an efficiency test. I know this is hard to do with different geometries and battery sizes etc. But, if you could choose similar bike geometry, and put the same wheel and tyres on from one bike to another, and then maybe do a 10 mile loop say, with a mix style of trails, steep climbs, and a little bit of fire track climbs. It would be good to see how each motor deals with it. Maybe use a watt meter to keep your input as fair as possible? KEEP MAKING GREAT VIDEOS! 👍🏽
Rob, Great info. I found this highly informative. I have to say I wish my Orbea Rise would have done a little better in the comparison, but I love my Rise anyway. I think more info like this is always good, and I hope the manufacturers take note.
I love my 2020 Turbo Levo SL. I have the best of both worlds! It feels just like my regular Stumpy. I’ve not experienced any issues at all since I purchased it…
I believe they intentionally left it out ,Bafang m620/g510. Which costs a fraction of the price $ of every one of those Motors. And I also believe out sells them all. Great view review Rob as usual thank you again brother.
I really enjoyed the video and concluded: Bosch and Brose for me! By the way, your Rail looks awesome! Waiting for your test ride review with that new set up! Awesome bike!
Motor / battery / electronics etc are in the dinosaur era in terms of reliability and the fact that they cost more than MX / ENDURO Motorcycles is stupidity
Again excellent vid Rob! Will you do a part 2 with testing the grunt and range (motor effiency)? As far as I have understood the Shimano has less km/wh and less grunt compared to the Bosch, dunno how it stacks up to the rest?
Really interesting video and mostly mirrors my thoughts having gone from a Bosch Gen 4 to a Spesh Brose 2.2. However, I have to say I've found the Brose to be super quiet ascending and descending, especially when compared to the Bosch. Great video though, thanks Rob!
I had a trek rail with Bosch and I'm on a gen 3 levo now. Brose is super quiet, most natural feeling power delivery, power is similar but the brose is way more efficient. Only issue I have with the brose is it seems draggy when you're not pedalling
@@chawkins45ify Colt, thank you for mentioning this. I have the 2022 Levo and as crazy fast as it can be going up hills it is noticeably slower on the descents compared to my Trek Fuel non emtb. I am blaming the Magura brakes at the moment because, for the life of me, I cannot get them to NOT rub. Also, agree with Loz regarding the noise level. The vid was not what I experience at all but Rob called it out. I find it to be very quiet.
@ From my 2 bikes, I would say the 700wh Spesh can definitely go further than the 625wh Bosch Cube I have, but probably not quite the 12-odd percent more it should do. However it's ridiculously difficult to conclude anything from that, since the assist levels, weights and gearing are all slightly different. I doubt if the Bosch is intrinsically any more efficient to any significant degree tbh, and the Brose is definitely a better motor overall, in my opinion. Both are great, mind. It's a high bar.
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@@lozetchells9164 Thank you! I am between 2 models with the Brose, the Specialized Levo and the Fantic XEF 1.9 Enduro. Tough choice! Cheers!
You know Rob, what I have found is that if you install a smaller chain ring much like a countershaft sprocket on a motorcycle, you can get a little more power, or what feels like more power out of the motor. Many might say that I’m just gearing it down but it’s more than that. The chainring is what the motor drives, a smaller chainring makes it easier for the motor to pull. Also, shorter crank arms do make a difference on ebikes because it allows one to spin the crank faster. It also helps with the balance because your feet are a little closer together. Give it a try.
This was one of the best you have done for a while. Very informative and covers all the questions potential buyers or owners would like to hear. Keep up the great work.!
Well done! I like the disclaimer in regards to the testing not being scientific, yet your approach is fair and transparent. Off to check out more of your videos!
Great video! It would be nice to see in this kind of comparison videos how do the different motors feel when riding them while they are turned off (for example when You want to save the battery or when the battery is dead). I heard there are some differences in this regard. Thanks!-)
Yeah I want to know this too. Or when you exceed the speed limit. I think the ep8 is the best from what I can find out. But I can’t find anything out about the giant.
@@brokenlegz apparently Giant have started to utilize the new Yamaha pwx3 with their own 'tune'. I'd like to know some more about this motor, as haibike have just put it in their new allmtn 7 and 10. Bloody lovely green with gold accents on the paint job on the 7. Fox 36 float performance front, fox dps performance rear, with magura mt7s and a Sram chainset. For £5299. But for an extra £700 for the allmtn 10 ( you don't get the my favorite colour scheme, it's gloss black, still cool looking though) you get factory kashima 38s, factory kashima x2, XT brakes and chainset. A hell of an up-spec for the price difference. As for how easy it is to outpedal the limiter, or ride with no power, I have no idea how it compares to other motors. Yes it will be doable. Just hard going.
i thought if the motor was off if u wanted to save battery the bike just rides as a normal bike could without a motor regardless or am i wong ? Thanks in advance :)
@@CJUrbex they do. But without any assistance from the motor they're hard going, varying, due to the weight of the bike and how much drag/resistance the motor has, all motors vary in how hard they are to pedal when 'off'. This is why some emtb's are easier to out-pedal the motor when they hit the speed where the speed limiter cuts the assist. 15.5mph in Europe and (I think) 20mph in the USA. It's easier to out-pedal the motors limiter, once it's assisted to the legal assist speed. Than it is to get up to the same speed with no assist at all. And as i said, the difficulty will vary depending on bike weight and motor type. And how fit you are .
@@CJUrbex There are difference amongst the motors in terms of resistance they have when they are turned off. I suppose older models are worse and the newer one should be better. Some models were very hard to ride when turned off and some not.
Awesome video Rob. I got a Bosch and the winning annoys me a little on long ascents on gravel tracks when you are mostly enjoying the scenery. I believe that in the future noise control would be a key design feature.
While one aspect of motor design, noise is also affected by bike frame design/material and motor with smooth noise in one frame can have whiny noise in another frame: ua-cam.com/video/yI3pL2e5Bu4/v-deo.html
That's why I have my 1000w hub motor lol Can cruse along gravel and cycle tracks in total bliss........ OK I know, Completely different comparison, I'm not a mountain biker I won't be cruising through woods or gnarly trails, Just saying for the lols.
Rob, thank you for the videos. Ended up buying an Orbea Rise. If you ever get a chance, it would be nice to see how energy efficient the motors are. As an example measure a battery before and after a hill climb.
I think anyone who does mountain biking can spot an ebike, you only need to look around the crank to spot them a mile off. I noticed no bafang bikes, I think that would have been interesting to see how their motor stacked up against the other brands.
@@billybobby7607160 CNM (Chinese Newton-Meter), is different to real newton-meters. Just like Chinese Lumens and Chinese Wattage are not the same. You can probably take off 15% for a more accurate measurement.
Very good vid Rob. Lots of Informations and details. But please don't use sunglasses when talking to your audience. Perhaps I'm a bit old school but I'd like to see the eyes of the person talking to me. Keep up your work, really one of the better eMTB channels on YT.
Definitely enjoyed the reliability side of the review. It's the most mysterious aspect of eMTB's and the manufactures don't help the cause by not allowing owners to manage the software diagnostics. At least the one's I'm aware of. Bike riders are by nature DIY'ers.
Another good video Rob. Have you experienced any issues when riding at different cadences with these motors? I tend to ride with a fairly high cadence (96 rpm) due to riding longer distances. I have found some motors do not like this cadence and my haibike indicates to slow my cadence down. It would be good to hear your findings when riding these bikes with their various motors.
The only reason I sold my Levo sl was due to that high pitch uphill whine couldn’t zone it out so it had to go , went on to buy the orbea rise and although the rattle is there going down hill it was much easier to zone this out this rattle out then the sl high pitch whine great video rob 👍
Great video Rob, very informative. I bought the Giant Trance E+2 last October. plagued from the outset by the electronics cutting out. Nothing was showing up on the diagnostic machine in the shop. it finally gave up by not switching between the power modes, it was stuck in the lowest power. once again the diagnostics showed nothing. The mechanic contacted Giant who said they weren't sure and sent him the control buttons, no difference. Sent him a battery module, no difference. He asked for a battery and a motor but they wouldn't send that and so they asked for the bike to be sent back to Giant service centre where it's been for three weeks and I, nor the bike shop, have heard anything since. The motor always seemed to be a little noisy, we wait and see.
@@brokenlegz my bike was away at Giant from feb to may. New motor fitted.No trouble now. 3 weeks later the dropper post failed and a new one had to be fitted. Since then i've been plagued by a creak, metallic tapping at the front fork stripped, no difference. After 5 attempts it was found to be the headset not seating properly. All good now but overall disappointed with the bike.
@@roykelly8103 oh man that sucks. It seems they’re all plagued by issues. It puts me off getting one. I’ve had no trouble with my trek remedy 8. Except I have to pedal it 🥲
Amazing work! Best emtb channel out there. Very informative and it's helping me look at new options and consider bikes I wouldn't have looked at otherwise.
What a great, rounded review Rob and hats off for getting so many bikes. Personally I steered away from a Shimano based motor based on experience with E8000. They are apparently very hard to work on, and mine although a supposedly sealed unit when opened ( out of warranty and dead ) was full of water, in September. I never jet wash. Am very careful yet the motor was swamped. The new EP8 has seen it’s fair share of returns too. I hear sensor issues. I went Brose in the end. One, due to the feel of the motor and superb Mission Control, secondly due to Specialized warranty being strong and thirdly a strong network of third party motor repair centres that have great after warranty support for Brose. All motors don’t mix well with water. And still there seems to be a market for maintainable motors. It seems counter intuitive that if you try to service a motor the warranty is invalidated. At the end of the day maybe pick a bike based on your riding needs, your sizing and the kind of environment you like to ride in. Being 6’3” few bikes fitted me until the S sizing came out. Thanks again Rob, hope you are enjoying the new Rail (proper Slash type sizing for you !) and here’s to drier conditions in the UK !
All these motors have one thing in common a lifespan of 3000 miles if you’re lucky, i love e bikes i think they’re marvellous but motors that rarely see 3000 miles? that aint good enough, 7-10 i think should be the mark with all replaceable mechanically as well as hardware software
Silence is golden. 2018 1.3 aluminium brose motors best ever made. Powerful, smooth , silent up and downhill ,runs cool and natural feel with latest firmware updates. Just add x ring crank seals for better water resistance . What did brose and Specialized know in 2018 that they don't know now. Forget trying to save weight on full fat Emtbs just make them silent,strong and reliable with best suspension available. E=Mtb²
I have a 1.3 as well, very happy but the 700wh and smige more power 🔋 on the 2.2 is fine by me. I'll swap when we get belt drive and integrated gearbox
@@CarkeekW I also have a 2020 levo 700wh battery, but reliability of Magnesium cased motor has been a major problem and they make more noise and 2022 motor mounting makes it worse .Fact is all internal motor components are nearly identical to 1.3 motors and Magnesium motors don't have any more power than a firmware updated alloy 1.3. 700wh battery is good but 1kg heavier than 500wh. I suggest you buy a extra 500wh for your 2018 levo and wait for integrated motor/gearbox and belt. E=Mtb²
@Rob Haskins got a 460 . I rode a kanevo 2021 back to back and it is faster neither of us could keep up with the kanevo if on my bike 🏍 . It doesn't bother me and I'm very lucky to have anything let alone a good one
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 🚲 The video is a comparison of six different e-bike motors, including the Shimano EP8, Bosch Smart, Brose Mag S, Yamaha PWX3, Mahle, and Shimano EPA RS. 02:38 🏁 The drag race test reveals the speed of each e-bike motor, with the Bosch Gen 4 Smart system coming out as the fastest. 11:27 🔊 The noise test shows that the Shimano EP8 is the noisiest motor, while the Specialized bikes are the quietest during descent. 19:37 💡 The video discusses the integration of the motors into the e-bikes, highlighting the seamless design of the Specialized and Giant bikes. 26:17 ⚙️ The e-bike motor center provides insights on motor reliability, with the Bosch Gen 4 being popular and reliable, the Yamaha PWX3 having potential issues with water ingress, and the Shimano EP8 being relatively reliable but with some noise and rattle. Made with HARPA AI
I remember being concerned about which motor my first E bike would have and after buying a YT decoy I feel silly for having worried about power as much as I was. i cant imagine running it on Boost unless im just claiming a long hill. In fact the trail mode is almost too much power and im not in shape and a heavy rider. I think what’s more important than the actual torque is the “tune” how does the power come in and is it natural feeling. It’s not a dirt bike and I don’t want it to feel like one. Also battery capacity i have 540w an i have no idea why everyone wants 900w battery’s. I mean how far are you guys riding? Lol for the extra cost and weight no way do i think i need more battery.
625.battery on Giant Trance, 100 kilos, battery dead after 65 km with 1400 vertical meters. 70% on eco, 20% basic, 10% active. The trip was 72 km, so I could have used a bigger battery to be able to finish battery powered. If I want an even longer ride, I must keep on eco most of the time.
Hello from Spain, thanks and congratulations for the test but to me there weren't 3 important motors, Polini E-P3 + and Bafang M510 and Panasonic GX Ultimate.
Nice Rob, you asked for feedback, you spent to much time on your knees a video this long you should of took a bike stand with you or something to stand the bikes up with. The quality of video that you now demands this. Thanks for another informative video. Particularly on water ingress
Nice video!!! 👍👍👍 I have a Turbo Creo SL with 1.1 SL motor...you are right is a little noise when climbing but doesn't rattle at all when you are going down. Love that little motor...on my Creo I can go up to 110km with a single charge and because is a Gravel bike you have the most of the engine at 90/100 cadence per minutes...2000km without issues.
Bravo! What a review! That must have taken a LOT of time to organise and shoot. Thank you for that. I’m throwing my leg over the Orbea Rise M10 at the moment and am lovin’ it as my first foray into the E-Bike world, having ridden ‘analogue’ for many years. You confirmed everything I’ve found with the Rise so far: noisy down, quiet up. The last segment on reliability was a tad concerning given the British winter I’ve been riding through, but so far… so good! I had to Lol with the 1st test… Mmmm, The Trek you spent your money on was the fastest bike in the drag test… I wonder if you tried just a teeny bit harder on that one! I would!
Don't you have problems with the motor overheating, or the motor suddenly losing a lot of power and a red LED flashing? I would also like to buy a Giant Reign E+ 2022 (2 or 1) or E+ 2 2023, but I read about a lot of problems in German forums. For example, it is very often written that the motor below is significantly weaker than a Bosch, Brose, Shimano or PW-X2 and has severe problems with overheating, which then causes a red LED to flash and the performance to be massively reduced, so it makes no difference whether you use level 2 or level 5 until the engine has cooled down for a few minutes. I also read that the motor switches off the support at 24km/h and, for example, with the Brose or Shimano only from around 26km/h. In addition, there is often mention of a rattling noise like with Shimano or Bosch. The rattling thing isn't really that important to me because it's the same with the Bosch CX. The only thing I'm a bit "afraid" of is overheating and the supposedly weak performance of the engine. I have no problem riding on hills at a high cadence so that the engine can use its full power, but I am afraid of not being able to keep up with Bosch or Brose riders if we ride together. When I'm riding alone, it's not that important that the motor is a little weaker than a Brose or Bosch, because I'm currently only driving a 50nm motor anyway, which struggles quite a bit on steep mountains since I also weigh over 100kg. So in comparison, the SyncDrive Pro2 is significantly stronger. I also drove a SyncDrive Pro1 (PW-X2) and level 2-3 was easily enough for me on steep climbs and level 1-2 on the flat.
Great overview!!! no word on the issues with the belt drive in the Brose system? We‘ve sold a good number of EP8 RS in the Orbea Rise since late 2021. Not a single issue with the motors since then, except one that came with a faulty firmware from the factory but was quickly replaced.
It was interesting to hear your comments on the noise of these motors. Thu my speakers & ears, the Bosch was quieter, both down & up. I have briefly ridden a Brose, Shimano S7 & S8 & the new Bosch. Quietest was the Brose & S8. The Bosch was noisy in comparison :( I wear earplugs riding my motorbike. Might try earplugs riding the Focus Jam2 6.9 with a Bosch motor i am getting later this week. I don't like mechanical noise from engines/motors.
it's not only a control unit. it is the "brain" and has the bluetooth transmitter built in etc so it has to be a bit bigger (bluetooth for the app which, among other things, gives you the possibility to use your phone as a key (theft-protection) and some other things). Also it controls the display (which is by the way optional, you don't have to use the display with it).. or you can swap the display with their smartphone grip (with wireless or wired charging) on the same base to use navigation inside the bosch "Flow" app. It's then also controlled with the remote on the handlebar. But again, you can leave any display at home if you like. And tbh.. the size of the remote doesn't affect a ride at all, in fact this one gives you useful informations with just one glance even at night. the color of the main LED shows the riding mode (led off: off, green: ECO, blue: tour+; violet: emtb, red: turbo), the small LEDs show battery status in 10% increments (5 two-colored LEDs). And like with the Shimano EP8, you can adjust ECO and Turbo mode the way you want in the Flow app (more or less motor support, more or less torque output, stronger or softer start from standstill, maximum speed with motor support..) So what I hope is that they follow the route they went with the LED-Remote.
The one thing I would say about the display on the top tube it's hard to quickly look down and focus especially when your eyes are starting to age. Although I like the Specialized TCU mastermind abilities, I prefer the Shimano display. The only thing, Shimano should put the ability to scroll through the screen on the E7000 mode switch.
I think frame material and design affect the motor noise. Also the mic used and mic on GoPro seem to pickup the frequency more than our own ears. As always thank you Rob for the great content and in depth research for your videos.
Frame material and design affect noise. Different materials and/or shapes have different resonances and quiet motor in one frame can become noisier in other frame: ua-cam.com/video/yI3pL2e5Bu4/v-deo.html
Thanks for the tests. A Luna X2 or Z1 would have been a great option. Pretending off brand doesn't exist does not make it go away. The M600 and M620 Ultra motors have their place and what they do they do very well. If the other entries forbid you to test them than its not a true "unbiased" test.
M600 and M610 are not legal on UK land with public access. I have already featured the Bafang M500 on a couple of vids (this is the EU legal version). I will be building up a bike with their new M510 motor and testing it against the competition. Also, no brand has any say over what I can or can’t publish on my channel.
@@RobRidesEMTB Thank you Rob for responding. I promise you I was not trying to be disrespectful. I agree with your response, but the Title should then be " UK/EU legal only Mega 2022 eBike Motor Test" ....👍 Just an opinion
Couldn't have said it better myself! I bought a Luna X1 in April 2020, still going strong and easily beats my buddies Turbo Levo Comp up any hill climb. That being said, the Turbo Levo had a smoother feel when pedaling. This whole 250 watts limit is a dumb law in my opinion.
Particularly liked the feedback from the e-bike motor centre. Just like cars , you need to talk to people who fix things to cut through the hype. I am coming at selecting a bike from the direction of a means of transport so reliability is key.
this is *an EPIC Rob Rides EMTB* vid-thx, Rob! love the noise segment. Really helps me as a shopper. Appreciated your imitation of a motor sound @18:40
I like clean no non-sense control setup of the Giant & Specialized. We ride these bikes on mountains and crashes do happen honestly I think Trek & Bosch have dropped the ball when it comes to this.
Well if you ride Enduro and Downhill sure 100%. Many people (perhaps even most) use their e-bikes for 80% XC touring and only 20% trails (especially the hardtail and trail mountain bikes). For that use-case I actually quite like a bit more verbose information on displays. In case of Bosch, you can't forget that those units are used on everything from city and touring bikes, over XC and trail bikes and also enduro and downhill bikes. So I would bet that for the vast majority of customers that buy the Bosch system, the bigger displays and control units are actually a selling point. So I don't think it's "dropping the ball" from their POV. Still I think Rob is right to criticize Bosch for forcing the closed system, as this prevents manufacturers for creating sleeker more minimal custom solutions for their Enduro and downhill models.
I enjoyed your review Rob. You do a great job. The only thing I have an issue with concerns displays. I think we can agree that you are a minimalist. For you, less is more. The less a bike looks like an e-bike, the better you like it. However, many of us like lots of information available at a glance. That means a larger display. You think large displays are tacky, but I like what they give me so I simply don't concern myself with what the display looks like. On a similar note, I wish my bike had a gear display. I would feel more comfortable with that information when I am somewhere in a middle gear with a steep hill approaching. Would it look tacky? Maybe. Would I care? Not even a little bit. We all have different likes and needs depending on experience, and intellectual "personality."
I got to finally demo the new 2022 Rocky Mountain Powerplay this weekend. While the bike as a whole was ok, the Dyname 4.0 motor was a Dream. Stealthy quiet and the power is ludicrous! How can the most powerful class1 eMTB motor also be the most quiet?
Which model were you on? I haven't found an ebike that comes even close to the 2022 c90 powerplay. I come off of a specialised turbo Kenevo expert, the rocky made it felt like a huffy from Kmart 😂
Funny that there not even a comment about Rockys Dyname motor. Significantly stronger and with excellent naturally drive characteristics that never "over drive" as most other motors do some extent when you least want it in tricky technical situations. Would really like to see a test including both the new Dyname 4.0 and the new even stronger Sach motor
Awesome comparison; about rattling in descend, Rob what do you think about your Trek Rail 2022 (which is also mine) and the review of a famous magazine that states the battery causes not only rattling but also vibration propagating thru frame and handlebar? Do you have experienced too?
They can adjust that battery mounting at the bottom mount of the battery to remove that vibration. I had it on the test bike but it takes 2 minutes to fix! My current bike is perfect. Shame they marked it down so badly, sounds like their bike wasn't setup correctly. I'm actually surprised that they didn't fix it themselves!
@@RobRidesEMTB it is a bit of a shame as it sort of put me off buying one. Would you say the 2022 with the smart system is worth it over the cheaper ones without the smart system. I’m thinking of getting either the rail 7 or 9.5 and doing some upgrades? Thanks bud
I think it’s the future of Bosch. They’ve confirmed to me that mapping is coming soon. That and the big 750wh battery will be perfect combo. Handling wise, there’s not a lot in it at all, both excellent bikes (once set up properly!)
Hi Rob, I’m just moving from a analogue bike to an e bike, and have been studying motors before buying in the next few months. This video is absolutely fantastic, and has provided a brilliant and comprehensive overview of all the things I would be interested in. Well done. Keep up the good work. 😀
Fully agreed this video is excellent just by watching it, definitely help me understand better what should i look for, when i'll be choosing to get an ev bike..
Tanks a lot Rob.. Safe ridings ! ;0)
U choose Bafang?
Here's the 2022 test! Power / Noise / Integration and Reliability included in the vid! PS - I tried and Tried to get the new Rocky Mountain but sadly they were unable to send one.
For the hill climb I never reached the top out motor cut off speed on the drag races- the hill was too steep. Hope you like the vid, happy riding!! Rob.
I love how customizable the Shimano EP8 RS motor is in my Rise. I tweak it for the type of trails and ride duration.
Have a Grail:ON eTap with the Bosch CX Speed (28mph) on order. It will serve 3 duties: Commuter/Gravel Bike/Road Bike. Big miles planned this year. Hopefully it can be adjusted to fit the day.
It would be good to know how they all feel beyond the limiter with a power meter pedal on the flat at 22mph held for 30 sec same wheels tyres etc.
Get back out there ... ;) PS good job on doing all this work - and big Props to John for great camera work.
Rob, you've never tried the previous one. Other ones did. It would be good to go to France, and ask to tribe to get you one to try. In the south of france, le Var, nice place to discover.
I even can make the guide if necessary.
@@resetbikes2265 I love this comment! Ride all these f*n downhill bikes at 22+ on flat ground and then tell us how it felt!
Rob would be in an f*ing coma. He is not an athlete if you haven't noticed.
Love your vids Rob! The best e-mountain bike channel by far, looking forward to watching!
The section on realibility was an informative addition to motor tests. It helps me avoid conditions that would raise the risk of damage. My Yamaha PWX3 will be carried over deeper water challenges on the trail.
Glad to help
Great vid Rob. Really engaging and an incredible amount of work to organise 🤟 Your point about the motor sounds varying from bike design to bike bike design and frame material is spot on and true. People should take note of that. Personally, I think much of Mountain Biking comes down to the support you get, as we need it!! Bosch have lots of certified service centres, my LBS is one and Bosch warranty has been the best I have experienced in the bike industry when I needed it. That associated with it's 85nM and good performance in all test categories is the end of the decision process for me
How on earth were you able to get all these bikes at the same time…? Massive undertaking, great test, large amount of relevant info (as always) there is a lot of work behind this. Thank you for that & Congratulations!
Loved this video 👍
Thanks! Took a long time!!
he just owns them
Bigger youtubers obviously get bikes with priority from the manufacturers so they can get a video out early. I'm 100% for that so I can find reviews before making a decision. :D
It's still quite a lot of effort to get all these bikes together and I appreciate that a lot!
Would like to see 2000w bafang mid drive
@phillip warehamThe motors come pre-lubricated right?
Great test Rob. I really love the Yamaha motor on my new Reign E+1. It is a big improvement to the 2021 model that I testet last year. More quiet, a bit more power and just runs and goes nicely. Sure integration milles better.
Rob, fantastic 👏 video! Your emtb channel is by far the best. So much well thought out information presented... and on all current product lines. These various tests and comparisons between the different motors and bikes makes sorting one out for purchase much easier. Thank you for sharing this information.
Well done for addressing the reliability issue it's an important part of the picture that you don't see normally see in the media 👍🏻
Recently had a buddy RUN OUT OF BATTERY on his cargo bike (Moondog Bullit) - he had to Push It. Basically un-rideable via the pedals. What happens to these 6 motors - can you pedal home when battery is completely dead - OR - are you fighting the battery and transmission to get home ????
You can pedal through no bother, there is a little more resistance than a normal bike due to weight and motor resistance
You basicaly have a hybrid car, and your blood sugar is the gasoline😆😆
Bosch and Shimano do pretty well in that regard. At least everything 2019 and newer.
Can't say much about the others, as I barely ever see them/work on them.
There's bound to be SOME extra resistance, but honestly weight is the more limiting factor. Especially on cargo bikes, where the smaller wheels/tyres don't exactly make it easier to get the thing going, plus you tend to sit lower, so you're either not using an optimal pedaling angle, or have an unusual pedal position (like pedaling forward rather than down, limiting how much gravity helps you).
Loads of factors being at work there
Man I’ve been watching so many e-bike videos lately. I just bought a Cube Hybrid Reaction Pro with the Bosch CX and can’t wait to get it! Still 2 weeks till delivery lol. I feel like a child at Christmas!
Woul‘ve been nice to see, how Bafang is comparing to the rest of the companies. I was surprised how quit units like the M400 are working.
Yeah, I have a BBSHD bolt on, and it's extremely quite, I assume their integrated motors are similar as well
@@acelectricalsecurity Same , very quiet at full power , NO rattle and super reliable , it would have put these motors to shame in the performance and noise tests! I wish more bike manufacturers would equip their bikes with Bafang motors.
@@Tony_P your spot on with what you say, I was surprised how quiet it is. Plus with the software or the app you can customise it to your preference.
Also for I would have liked to have seen a standard bike in the comparison just to see how significantly the times vary. I question the reliability info though because a service centre has no way of knowing the sales of each unit and could have some bias towards brands it doesn't deal with like Shimano. Also sound levels are not a major concern for me. I remember reading that nylon cogs are less noisy than metal cogs so if a bike has a lot of internal nylon cogs it may be quieter but that may not be good for long term reliability. Bosch in the past seemed to have a lot of nylon cogs and belts and were highly rated for low levels of sound and now they seem to have more metal cogs and no internal belts and sound levels are louder.
However without Bafang in the comparison and maybe a few other mid-drive Chinese brands it's hard to make full use of the info but still an interesting video but I can't really draw any conclusions from it.
I am glad he raised the issue of Bosch being a closed environment meaning excessively expensive batteries and repairs etc. For that reason I would never ever buy a Bosch based ebike.
To be fair I would never ever consider any of these bikes I would be looking at Bafang just for easy spares, greater reliability and customisation. These premium ebikes are a horrendous money pit and often short life.
@@bonzobanana1 yeah you make a lot of valid points, I watched a guy replace all the bearing's in a Bosch gen 4 motor and it didn't look an easy job, very fiddly.
To be fair this guy has done a bafang build and a cyc build, the cyc blew the stock bike away, and the cyc was in legal mode as well.
The only thing these bikes have over a DIY kit is looks, I can't argue they look neater, but that's all really.
For me I chose the bafang HD and I am very happy with it.
An excellent video, vital for someone making such a large purchase. My only issue is I would have loved to see how Rocky Mountains motor measures up to the others.
Great test again, adding on previous tests you've done. The only thing missing that i would love to see, is an efficiency test. I know this is hard to do with different geometries and battery sizes etc. But, if you could choose similar bike geometry, and put the same wheel and tyres on from one bike to another, and then maybe do a 10 mile loop say, with a mix style of trails, steep climbs, and a little bit of fire track climbs. It would be good to see how each motor deals with it. Maybe use a watt meter to keep your input as fair as possible? KEEP MAKING GREAT VIDEOS! 👍🏽
Nah you'd want to do that on bench test, via turbo trainer so exact same amount of resistance
Excellent content Rob, with a concise break down of all bikes.. Thank you for your hard work..
Rob, Great info. I found this highly informative. I have to say I wish my Orbea Rise would have done a little better in the comparison, but I love my Rise anyway. I think more info like this is always good, and I hope the manufacturers take note.
Rise Isa great bike as you say , enjoy it for its strengths 💪
I love my 2020 Turbo Levo SL. I have the best of both worlds! It feels just like my regular Stumpy. I’ve not experienced any issues at all since I purchased it…
I believe they intentionally left it out ,Bafang m620/g510. Which costs a fraction of the price $ of every one of those Motors. And I also believe out sells them all. Great view review Rob as usual thank you again brother.
Wow, this was really comprehensive! A review to rule them all
Would love to see another test like this soon Rob as there have been so many updates to the current line up on this video, great review though 👏
I really enjoyed the video and concluded: Bosch and Brose for me! By the way, your Rail looks awesome! Waiting for your test ride review with that new set up! Awesome bike!
Best video yet! Don’t own an eMTB, but motor reliability is my biggest concern. Thanks for tackling this topic.
Glad it helped
Motor / battery / electronics etc are in the dinosaur era in terms of reliability and the fact that they cost more than MX / ENDURO Motorcycles is stupidity
New and beginner in this discipline but you help me so much to educate myself! Man you are doing an amazing job!
Again excellent vid Rob! Will you do a part 2 with testing the grunt and range (motor effiency)? As far as I have understood the Shimano has less km/wh and less grunt compared to the Bosch, dunno how it stacks up to the rest?
Really interesting video and mostly mirrors my thoughts having gone from a Bosch Gen 4 to a Spesh Brose 2.2. However, I have to say I've found the Brose to be super quiet ascending and descending, especially when compared to the Bosch.
Great video though, thanks Rob!
I had a trek rail with Bosch and I'm on a gen 3 levo now. Brose is super quiet, most natural feeling power delivery, power is similar but the brose is way more efficient. Only issue I have with the brose is it seems draggy when you're not pedalling
@@chawkins45ify Colt, thank you for mentioning this. I have the 2022 Levo and as crazy fast as it can be going up hills it is noticeably slower on the descents compared to my Trek Fuel non emtb. I am blaming the Magura brakes at the moment because, for the life of me, I cannot get them to NOT rub. Also, agree with Loz regarding the noise level. The vid was not what I experience at all but Rob called it out. I find it to be very quiet.
@@robcburton1 those maguras are very draggy until they bed in, my buddy had the same issues with his bike
@ From my 2 bikes, I would say the 700wh Spesh can definitely go further than the 625wh Bosch Cube I have, but probably not quite the 12-odd percent more it should do. However it's ridiculously difficult to conclude anything from that, since the assist levels, weights and gearing are all slightly different. I doubt if the Bosch is intrinsically any more efficient to any significant degree tbh, and the Brose is definitely a better motor overall, in my opinion. Both are great, mind. It's a high bar.
@@lozetchells9164 Thank you! I am between 2 models with the Brose, the Specialized Levo and the Fantic XEF 1.9 Enduro. Tough choice! Cheers!
You know Rob, what I have found is that if you install a smaller chain ring much like a countershaft sprocket on a motorcycle, you can get a little more power, or what feels like more power out of the motor. Many might say that I’m just gearing it down but it’s more than that. The chainring is what the motor drives, a smaller chainring makes it easier for the motor to pull. Also, shorter crank arms do make a difference on ebikes because it allows one to spin the crank faster. It also helps with the balance because your feet are a little closer together. Give it a try.
This was one of the best you have done for a while. Very informative and covers all the questions potential buyers or owners would like to hear. Keep up the great work.!
Well done! I like the disclaimer in regards to the testing not being scientific, yet your approach is fair and transparent. Off to check out more of your videos!
Great video! It would be nice to see in this kind of comparison videos how do the different motors feel when riding them while they are turned off (for example when You want to save the battery or when the battery is dead). I heard there are some differences in this regard. Thanks!-)
Yeah I want to know this too. Or when you exceed the speed limit. I think the ep8 is the best from what I can find out. But I can’t find anything out about the giant.
@@brokenlegz apparently Giant have started to utilize the new Yamaha pwx3 with their own 'tune'.
I'd like to know some more about this motor, as haibike have just put it in their new allmtn 7 and 10. Bloody lovely green with gold accents on the paint job on the 7. Fox 36 float performance front, fox dps performance rear, with magura mt7s and a Sram chainset. For £5299.
But for an extra £700 for the allmtn 10 ( you don't get the my favorite colour scheme, it's gloss black, still cool looking though) you get factory kashima 38s, factory kashima x2, XT brakes and chainset.
A hell of an up-spec for the price difference.
As for how easy it is to outpedal the limiter, or ride with no power, I have no idea how it compares to other motors. Yes it will be doable. Just hard going.
i thought if the motor was off if u wanted to save battery the bike just rides as a normal bike could without a motor regardless or am i wong ? Thanks in advance :)
@@CJUrbex they do. But without any assistance from the motor they're hard going, varying, due to the weight of the bike and how much drag/resistance the motor has, all motors vary in how hard they are to pedal when 'off'. This is why some emtb's are easier to out-pedal the motor when they hit the speed where the speed limiter cuts the assist. 15.5mph in Europe and (I think) 20mph in the USA.
It's easier to out-pedal the motors limiter, once it's assisted to the legal assist speed. Than it is to get up to the same speed with no assist at all. And as i said, the difficulty will vary depending on bike weight and motor type. And how fit you are .
@@CJUrbex There are difference amongst the motors in terms of resistance they have when they are turned off. I suppose older models are worse and the newer one should be better. Some models were very hard to ride when turned off and some not.
Great video Rob! I have a full size Levo and I'm thinking of adding a Levo SL and this video really helps!
I'm just learning about E-Bikes so I find your videos very helpful.
Awesome video Rob.
I got a Bosch and the winning annoys me a little on long ascents on gravel tracks when you are mostly enjoying the scenery. I believe that in the future noise control would be a key design feature.
While one aspect of motor design, noise is also affected by bike frame design/material and motor with smooth noise in one frame can have whiny noise in another frame:
ua-cam.com/video/yI3pL2e5Bu4/v-deo.html
That's why I have my 1000w hub motor lol Can cruse along gravel and cycle tracks in total bliss........ OK I know, Completely different comparison, I'm not a mountain biker I won't be cruising through woods or gnarly trails, Just saying for the lols.
Great video. I would base the reliability of a motor highly, or possibly first, in choosing a brand of bike. Please keep these real world vids coming.
Great info thanks. Due to the high price, I'm trying to learn all I can before a purchase.
That was a timely video for me. I'm looking forward to owning my first E-bike and you really cut through the confusion. Much Mahalo and Aloha!
Rob, thank you for the videos. Ended up buying an Orbea Rise.
If you ever get a chance, it would be nice to see how energy efficient the motors are. As an example measure a battery before and after a hill climb.
Really appreciate the reliability insights from the repair center.
Impressed with the time posted by the Giant, given that the bike is a total DH tank and not a carbon trail bike.
The carbon Trance X Advanced E+ would have been a good contender for 1st place for sure 😎
Thanks Rob So much work here and great editing and camera work again...
I think anyone who does mountain biking can spot an ebike, you only need to look around the crank to spot them a mile off.
I noticed no bafang bikes, I think that would have been interesting to see how their motor stacked up against the other brands.
Yeah with 160nm of torque it'll trounce those. Wasn't impressed with the speed of those bikes in the first test, mine would fly up there
@@billybobby7607160 CNM (Chinese Newton-Meter), is different to real newton-meters. Just like Chinese Lumens and Chinese Wattage are not the same. You can probably take off 15% for a more accurate measurement.
Very good vid Rob.
Lots of Informations and details.
But please don't use sunglasses when talking to your audience.
Perhaps I'm a bit old school but I'd like to see the eyes of the person talking to me.
Keep up your work, really one of the better eMTB channels on YT.
Noted, thanks for the feedback 👊
Definitely enjoyed the reliability side of the review. It's the most mysterious aspect of eMTB's and the manufactures don't help the cause by not allowing owners to manage the software diagnostics. At least the one's I'm aware of. Bike riders are by nature DIY'ers.
Another good video Rob. Have you experienced any issues when riding at different cadences with these motors? I tend to ride with a fairly high cadence (96 rpm) due to riding longer distances. I have found some motors do not like this cadence and my haibike indicates to slow my cadence down. It would be good to hear your findings when riding these bikes with their various motors.
This is the THE test tha covers it all. I have finally made up my mind. Not buying an bike without a Bosch or Brose motor.
An EPIC test, and well designed and implemented!
Looking forward to this, I actually trust what you say 👍
🔥🔥
lol
The only reason I sold my Levo sl was due to that high pitch uphill whine couldn’t zone it out so it had to go , went on to buy the orbea rise and although the rattle is there going down hill it was much easier to zone this out this rattle out then the sl high pitch whine great video rob 👍
I prefer all day a whine noise than a clunky loose rattle motor...just my opinion
Hi Rob, from the Andean Ecuadorian mountains, thinking seriously on the Levo SL gen2, trust your
tech opinion, cheers.
Great review as always Rob, I’m sure we’ll see more motor manufacturers in the future which will shake up the establishment
Great video Rob, very informative. I bought the Giant Trance E+2 last October. plagued from the outset by the electronics cutting out. Nothing was showing up on the diagnostic machine in the shop. it finally gave up by not switching between the power modes, it was stuck in the lowest power. once again the diagnostics showed nothing. The mechanic contacted Giant who said they weren't sure and sent him the control buttons, no difference. Sent him a battery module, no difference. He asked for a battery and a motor but they wouldn't send that and so they asked for the bike to be sent back to Giant service centre where it's been for three weeks and I, nor the bike shop, have heard anything since. The motor always seemed to be a little noisy, we wait and see.
Heard anything?
@@brokenlegz my bike was away at Giant from feb to may. New motor fitted.No trouble now. 3 weeks later the dropper post failed and a new one had to be fitted. Since then i've been plagued by a creak, metallic tapping at the front fork stripped, no difference. After 5 attempts it was found to be the headset not seating properly. All good now but overall disappointed with the bike.
@@roykelly8103 oh man that sucks. It seems they’re all plagued by issues. It puts me off getting one. I’ve had no trouble with my trek remedy 8. Except I have to pedal it 🥲
Amazing work! Best emtb channel out there. Very informative and it's helping me look at new options and consider bikes I wouldn't have looked at otherwise.
Buy a bafang bbs02 or tongsheng tsdz2 and fit to your present bike.
Well done video. I appreciate your non biased opinions. Best on UA-cam.
What a great, rounded review Rob and hats off for getting so many bikes.
Personally I steered away from a Shimano based motor based on experience with E8000. They are apparently very hard to work on, and mine although a supposedly sealed unit when opened ( out of warranty and dead ) was full of water, in September. I never jet wash. Am very careful yet the motor was swamped.
The new EP8 has seen it’s fair share of returns too. I hear sensor issues. I went Brose in the end. One, due to the feel of the motor and superb Mission Control, secondly due to Specialized warranty being strong and thirdly a strong network of third party motor repair centres that have great after warranty support for Brose.
All motors don’t mix well with water. And still there seems to be a market for maintainable motors. It seems counter intuitive that if you try to service a motor the warranty is invalidated.
At the end of the day maybe pick a bike based on your riding needs, your sizing and the kind of environment you like to ride in. Being 6’3” few bikes fitted me until the S sizing came out.
Thanks again Rob, hope you are enjoying the new Rail (proper Slash type sizing for you !) and here’s to drier conditions in the UK !
All these motors have one thing in common a lifespan of 3000 miles if you’re lucky, i love e bikes i think they’re marvellous but motors that rarely see 3000 miles? that aint good enough, 7-10 i think should be the mark with all replaceable mechanically as well as hardware software
Silence is golden. 2018 1.3 aluminium brose motors best ever made. Powerful, smooth , silent up and downhill ,runs cool and natural feel with latest firmware updates. Just add x ring crank seals for better water resistance .
What did brose and Specialized know in 2018 that they don't know now. Forget trying to save weight on full fat Emtbs just make them silent,strong and reliable with best suspension available. E=Mtb²
I have a 1.3 as well, very happy but the 700wh and smige more power 🔋 on the 2.2 is fine by me. I'll swap when we get belt drive and integrated gearbox
@@CarkeekW I also have a 2020 levo 700wh battery, but reliability of Magnesium cased motor has been a major problem and they make more noise and 2022 motor mounting makes it worse .Fact is all internal motor components are nearly identical to 1.3 motors and Magnesium motors don't have any more power than a firmware updated alloy 1.3. 700wh battery is good but 1kg heavier than 500wh. I suggest you buy a extra 500wh for your 2018 levo and wait for integrated motor/gearbox and belt. E=Mtb²
@Rob Haskins got a 460 . I rode a kanevo 2021 back to back and it is faster neither of us could keep up with the kanevo if on my bike 🏍 . It doesn't bother me and I'm very lucky to have anything let alone a good one
nice video! i precommand KTM KAPOHO 7973 2022, coming in 3 months
Incredibly useful, thank you for your detailed side by side review!!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🚲 The video is a comparison of six different e-bike motors, including the Shimano EP8, Bosch Smart, Brose Mag S, Yamaha PWX3, Mahle, and Shimano EPA RS.
02:38 🏁 The drag race test reveals the speed of each e-bike motor, with the Bosch Gen 4 Smart system coming out as the fastest.
11:27 🔊 The noise test shows that the Shimano EP8 is the noisiest motor, while the Specialized bikes are the quietest during descent.
19:37 💡 The video discusses the integration of the motors into the e-bikes, highlighting the seamless design of the Specialized and Giant bikes.
26:17 ⚙️ The e-bike motor center provides insights on motor reliability, with the Bosch Gen 4 being popular and reliable, the Yamaha PWX3 having potential issues with water ingress, and the Shimano EP8 being relatively reliable but with some noise and rattle.
Made with HARPA AI
I remember being concerned about which motor my first E bike would have and after buying a YT decoy I feel silly for having worried about power as much as I was. i cant imagine running it on Boost unless im just claiming a long hill. In fact the trail mode is almost too much power and im not in shape and a heavy rider. I think what’s more important than the actual torque is the “tune” how does the power come in and is it natural feeling. It’s not a dirt bike and I don’t want it to feel like one. Also battery capacity i have 540w an i have no idea why everyone wants 900w battery’s. I mean how far are you guys riding? Lol for the extra cost and weight no way do i think i need more battery.
So what motor have you got on yt decoy?
@@ulfhethnar3687 pretty sure they’re an ep8. They’re supposed to feel very natural? Even not much resistance when over the speed limit?
625.battery on Giant Trance, 100 kilos, battery dead after 65 km with 1400 vertical meters. 70% on eco, 20% basic, 10% active. The trip was 72 km, so I could have used a bigger battery to be able to finish battery powered. If I want an even longer ride, I must keep on eco most of the time.
That bolt on CYC Stealth bolt on kit smokes all the above Rob looking at your previous test ..
Hello from Spain, thanks and congratulations for the test but to me there weren't 3 important motors, Polini E-P3 + and Bafang M510 and Panasonic GX Ultimate.
That's a great video with very good info! I'm looking to buy my 2nd altitude powerplay,I wish you've test that new dyname 4.0.
Hi Rob, fantastic video, great real life demonstration and analysis, thanks for your efforts efforts and thumbs up !!😀
Nice Rob, you asked for feedback, you spent to much time on your knees a video this long you should of took a bike stand with you or something to stand the bikes up with. The quality of video that you now demands this. Thanks for another informative video. Particularly on water ingress
Nice video!!! 👍👍👍 I have a Turbo Creo SL with 1.1 SL motor...you are right is a little noise when climbing but doesn't rattle at all when you are going down. Love that little motor...on my Creo I can go up to 110km with a single charge and because is a Gravel bike you have the most of the engine at 90/100 cadence per minutes...2000km without issues.
great job! man we should do a class action for that bosh controller and display.
Great video, would love to see one for 2023!
Bravo! What a review! That must have taken a LOT of time to organise and shoot. Thank you for that. I’m throwing my leg over the Orbea Rise M10 at the moment and am lovin’ it as my first foray into the E-Bike world, having ridden ‘analogue’ for many years. You confirmed everything I’ve found with the Rise so far: noisy down, quiet up. The last segment on reliability was a tad concerning given the British winter I’ve been riding through, but so far… so good! I had to Lol with the 1st test… Mmmm, The Trek you spent your money on was the fastest bike in the drag test… I wonder if you tried just a teeny bit harder on that one! I would!
I love your channel dude! I just found out about it and can't stop watching it! Subbed!
Where is the Bafang? Did I miss something?
Exactly. The best motors out there
asked myself the same
I'm using bafang 250w hub motor
If the Bafang Ultra was tested, there would only be one motor in this video. None of these motors come close to the Ultra's performance.
Sponsored bs video
Great reviews Rob! Truly appreciate your massive effort on this one. Informative and enjoyable (as usual). Thanks!
Don't you have problems with the motor overheating, or the motor suddenly losing a lot of power and a red LED flashing? I would also like to buy a Giant Reign E+ 2022 (2 or 1) or E+ 2 2023, but I read about a lot of problems in German forums. For example, it is very often written that the motor below is significantly weaker than a Bosch, Brose, Shimano or PW-X2 and has severe problems with overheating, which then causes a red LED to flash and the performance to be massively reduced, so it makes no difference whether you use level 2 or level 5 until the engine has cooled down for a few minutes. I also read that the motor switches off the support at 24km/h and, for example, with the Brose or Shimano only from around 26km/h. In addition, there is often mention of a rattling noise like with Shimano or Bosch. The rattling thing isn't really that important to me because it's the same with the Bosch CX. The only thing I'm a bit "afraid" of is overheating and the supposedly weak performance of the engine. I have no problem riding on hills at a high cadence so that the engine can use its full power, but I am afraid of not being able to keep up with Bosch or Brose riders if we ride together. When I'm riding alone, it's not that important that the motor is a little weaker than a Brose or Bosch, because I'm currently only driving a 50nm motor anyway, which struggles quite a bit on steep mountains since I also weigh over 100kg. So in comparison, the SyncDrive Pro2 is significantly stronger. I also drove a SyncDrive Pro1 (PW-X2) and level 2-3 was easily enough for me on steep climbs and level 1-2 on the flat.
Imagine what time the bosch would have done if he had taken ridden that first. Beast.
Great overview!!! no word on the issues with the belt drive in the Brose system? We‘ve sold a good number of EP8 RS in the Orbea Rise since late 2021. Not a single issue with the motors since then, except one that came with a faulty firmware from the factory but was quickly replaced.
It was interesting to hear your comments on the noise of these motors. Thu my speakers & ears, the Bosch was quieter, both down & up.
I have briefly ridden a Brose, Shimano S7 & S8 & the new Bosch. Quietest was the Brose & S8. The Bosch was noisy in comparison :(
I wear earplugs riding my motorbike. Might try earplugs riding the Focus Jam2 6.9 with a Bosch motor i am getting later this week. I don't like mechanical noise from engines/motors.
100% agree about the Bosch control units. They feel like an afterthought... Hopefully they are listening 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻
it's not only a control unit. it is the "brain" and has the bluetooth transmitter built in etc so it has to be a bit bigger (bluetooth for the app which, among other things, gives you the possibility to use your phone as a key (theft-protection) and some other things).
Also it controls the display (which is by the way optional, you don't have to use the display with it).. or you can swap the display with their smartphone grip (with wireless or wired charging) on the same base to use navigation inside the bosch "Flow" app. It's then also controlled with the remote on the handlebar. But again, you can leave any display at home if you like.
And tbh.. the size of the remote doesn't affect a ride at all, in fact this one gives you useful informations with just one glance even at night. the color of the main LED shows the riding mode (led off: off, green: ECO, blue: tour+; violet: emtb, red: turbo), the small LEDs show battery status in 10% increments (5 two-colored LEDs). And like with the Shimano EP8, you can adjust ECO and Turbo mode the way you want in the Flow app (more or less motor support, more or less torque output, stronger or softer start from standstill, maximum speed with motor support..)
So what I hope is that they follow the route they went with the LED-Remote.
It would have been great to include a Rocky Mountain as they have a very different approach with motor set-up.
First ride on my orbea rise h30 today and honestly I never noticed any downhill motor rattle.
The one thing I would say about the display on the top tube it's hard to quickly look down and focus especially when your eyes are starting to age. Although I like the Specialized TCU mastermind abilities, I prefer the Shimano display. The only thing, Shimano should put the ability to scroll through the screen on the E7000 mode switch.
excellent and useful video. Seemingly unbiased reviews are extremely helpful.
Most helpful video I’ve watched so far on emtbs. Subbed
Can't wait to see what u have to say 😎
I think frame material and design affect the motor noise. Also the mic used and mic on GoPro seem to pickup the frequency more than our own ears. As always thank you Rob for the great content and in depth research for your videos.
Frame material and design affect noise.
Different materials and/or shapes have different resonances and quiet motor in one frame can become noisier in other frame:
ua-cam.com/video/yI3pL2e5Bu4/v-deo.html
Well done Rob. Very informative video -another top job as always
That Bosch is the quietest and seamed to be the best. 👍
Great work...👍
Great video with a lot of in depth information
Bosch need to ditch that giant screen and massive remote
This is the kind of info we want. Not just a bunch of b-role voice over.
Thank you for this. You put a lot of effort in your work!
Cheers NinJazz
Thanks for the tests. A Luna X2 or Z1 would have been a great option. Pretending off brand doesn't exist does not make it go away. The M600 and M620 Ultra motors have their place and what they do they do very well. If the other entries forbid you to test them than its not a true "unbiased" test.
Needless accusation at the end.
M600 and M610 are not legal on UK land with public access. I have already featured the Bafang M500 on a couple of vids (this is the EU legal version). I will be building up a bike with their new M510 motor and testing it against the competition. Also, no brand has any say over what I can or can’t publish on my channel.
@@wizzyno1566 Sorry I never recieved your permission to give my opinion. Needless comment about my "Needless" accusation at the end.
@@RobRidesEMTB Thank you Rob for responding. I promise you I was not trying to be disrespectful. I agree with your response, but the Title should then be " UK/EU legal only Mega 2022 eBike Motor Test" ....👍 Just an opinion
Couldn't have said it better myself! I bought a Luna X1 in April 2020, still going strong and easily beats my buddies Turbo Levo Comp up any hill climb. That being said, the Turbo Levo had a smoother feel when pedaling. This whole 250 watts limit is a dumb law in my opinion.
Would have been great to see your climbing time up that short hill on an Acoustic bike for reference.
thank you for the drag race. BOSCH ***** 5 star , from Truckee California. smile.
Particularly liked the feedback from the e-bike motor centre. Just like cars , you need to talk to people who fix things to cut through the hype. I am coming at selecting a bike from the direction of a means of transport so reliability is key.
this is *an EPIC Rob Rides EMTB* vid-thx, Rob! love the noise segment. Really helps me as a shopper. Appreciated your imitation of a motor sound @18:40
😁😁😂
Rob how come you did not include some of the other motors like the Bafang Ultra
I like clean no non-sense control setup of the Giant & Specialized. We ride these bikes on mountains and crashes do happen honestly I think Trek & Bosch have dropped the ball when it comes to this.
Well if you ride Enduro and Downhill sure 100%.
Many people (perhaps even most) use their e-bikes for 80% XC touring and only 20% trails (especially the hardtail and trail mountain bikes).
For that use-case I actually quite like a bit more verbose information on displays.
In case of Bosch, you can't forget that those units are used on everything from city and touring bikes, over XC and trail bikes and also enduro and downhill bikes.
So I would bet that for the vast majority of customers that buy the Bosch system, the bigger displays and control units are actually a selling point.
So I don't think it's "dropping the ball" from their POV.
Still I think Rob is right to criticize Bosch for forcing the closed system, as this prevents manufacturers for creating sleeker more minimal custom solutions for their Enduro and downhill models.
Impressive video, thanx for all the hard work.
I enjoyed your review Rob. You do a great job. The only thing I have an issue with concerns displays. I think we can agree that you are a minimalist. For you, less is more. The less a bike looks like an e-bike, the better you like it. However, many of us like lots of information available at a glance. That means a larger display. You think large displays are tacky, but I like what they give me so I simply don't concern myself with what the display looks like. On a similar note, I wish my bike had a gear display. I would feel more comfortable with that information when I am somewhere in a middle gear with a steep hill approaching. Would it look tacky? Maybe. Would I care? Not even a little bit. We all have different likes and needs depending on experience, and intellectual "personality."
Agree 100%. Perfect world would be options for both on any given system. Big screen options and minimalist options 👍👍
Thanks for the video, comparison is always interesting to watch.
I got to finally demo the new 2022 Rocky Mountain Powerplay this weekend. While the bike as a whole was ok, the Dyname 4.0 motor was a Dream. Stealthy quiet and the power is ludicrous! How can the most powerful class1 eMTB motor also be the most quiet?
Which model were you on? I haven't found an ebike that comes even close to the 2022 c90 powerplay. I come off of a specialised turbo Kenevo expert, the rocky made it felt like a huffy from Kmart 😂
Funny that there not even a comment about Rockys Dyname motor. Significantly stronger and with excellent naturally drive characteristics that never "over drive" as most other motors do some extent when you least want it in tricky technical situations.
Would really like to see a test including both the new Dyname 4.0 and the new even stronger Sach motor
I asked Rocky for a bike but they were unable to supply one :-(
Awesome comparison; about rattling in descend, Rob what do you think about your Trek Rail 2022 (which is also mine) and the review of a famous magazine that states the battery causes not only rattling but also vibration propagating thru frame and handlebar? Do you have experienced too?
Also interested in this
They can adjust that battery mounting at the bottom mount of the battery to remove that vibration. I had it on the test bike but it takes 2 minutes to fix! My current bike is perfect. Shame they marked it down so badly, sounds like their bike wasn't setup correctly. I'm actually surprised that they didn't fix it themselves!
@@RobRidesEMTB it is a bit of a shame as it sort of put me off buying one. Would you say the 2022 with the smart system is worth it over the cheaper ones without the smart system. I’m thinking of getting either the rail 7 or 9.5 and doing some upgrades?
Thanks bud
@@RobRidesEMTB Thanks Rob, this reassures me! You should do one of you short video (even in portrait mode :-) ) to let see where and how to operate.
I think it’s the future of Bosch. They’ve confirmed to me that mapping is coming soon. That and the big 750wh battery will be perfect combo. Handling wise, there’s not a lot in it at all, both excellent bikes (once set up properly!)
Hi, is still the Bafang M620 the King of torque & Power? Did you review a Frey Bike?
Enjoyed that Motor Test Rob. Toying with the idea of the new Trek 9.8 Rail....your thoughts over all? Trail rider rather than a 'jumper'....