Are Front Wide Speakers Worth it for your Dolby Atmos Home Theater?
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- Опубліковано 5 лют 2023
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Definitely appreciate the depth of your videos. I feel like you're one of the only ones letting us know the truth about Atmos and how it really works. Good stuff brother.
Such a great compliment and so true.
Thank you so much, Davon!
Great explanation.
Hell yeah, man! Not really worth it in 2023, but hopefully bringing more attention to this (and with home theaters getting bigger and bigger) mixing engineers will provide more tracks to accommodate different configurations. We can only hope! 😂🎉
Fingers crossed! LOL!!
Please bring more attention to this. I don't have wides, but I have a center back instead of a surround back pair as Denon supports it as well as Atmos and DTS:X due to placement issues with surround backs. Works great for DTS and Neural upmixing, but Atmos is relative crap MOST of the time.
The whole provision for the 10 bed-layer being Channel based is just a really really bad implementation. I suspect this helped with market adoption... hate to see lazy win out.
Well...
Moviewise, the hole point of front wides, surrounds, atmos speakers, are to make the sound travel. The main objective of front wides, are to make the gap from front to surround smaller and more precise. It also makes it possible to have the fronts closer to the center (like behind the screen), and thereby making LCR entirely behind the screen with front wides out to the side and slifhtly forward.
How much use they are, is very mixdependent, but to be fair, so is the activation of atmos and surroundchannels.
If one has a mixed setup, movie and music, the front wide are exelent in helping with soundstage and ambience. 😊
Great point. My movie Gravity, when Clooney is calling for Dr Stone, sounds from back right to surround right to front wide right to main right and I hear it very clearly.
Hey Channa! Great video man. I love your stuff on immersive audio. I would love to see multiple Atmos mixes on home video releases. I have a 5.1.2 and a 7.2.4. Have an excellent week!
Thank you, Kevin!
Good content! Recently finished 9.2.4 dedicated cinema room with JBL Synthesis setup in new construction home. Was sad to find hardly any movie mixes sent data to wides unless you're using an upmixer from your pre/pro or AVR. Since we have two rows of seating, I decided to use XLR y-splitters to split each surround signal from AVM 90 to create dual surrounds on each side. Much better experience through out the room now and no longer feel like any speakers are being wasted.
Are you playing the same sound from 2 speakers? I wonder if that would create cancellation.
@@techsamurai11 Yeah that sounds like it could introduce some issues.
Really cool seeing the backend part of how this all works. Thanks for putting this together.
You're welcome!
2:05 You are right however those of us that own HTP-1 processors have known this all along. Because we have an up mixing option in setup that will utilize the front wides when it’s appropriate even if the mix does not support it . Great videos TD keep up the exceptional work! 🤙
Thank you, Chris! Yeah, up-mixing will probably include the front wide speakers, but as far as native content is concerned, it's hit and miss...like REALLY hit or miss!
I totally agree with that I have been disappointed with many UHD 4K disc I’ve bought that the mixes were less than stellar. And pleasantly surprised by others that were better than expected.
I just installed wides. I also have HTP-1. So far no upmixer resulted in sound coming out of wide. Can you give a few examples where wides get active?
I have 9.2.4 system and I was aware of this really annoying Atmos issue. DTS handles this issue way much better with DTS:X Pro - front wides are really active and you don't need any special DTS:X mix.
That's interesting...well, I'll be making some Atmos Music Mixes optimized for 9.1.6, stay tuned!
@@TechnoDad Staying tuned. Your "On My Knees" and "Panic Room" mixes sounded quite nice.👌
@@jannelehti Thank you!
9.2.4 really there's no blueray dvd that output 9.2.4 audio the most they do is 5.1or 5.2.2 in dolby atmos 9.2.4 all you here thrue dolby atmos is 2 atmos speaker all the rest is simulation atmos. Tell me a streaming company that deliver 9.2.4 audio output. Nobody not even Netflix. Ha.
9.1.6 in your dreams the most you here is 7.1.2 the rest is simulation atmos.
Thanks Channa, moved into an RV from a large house with dedicated theater and speaker placement is very limited..lol. I'm sticking with 5.2.4 but upgrading my Denon AVR-4400H to the new Marantz Cinema 50 so I can independently control 2 SVS SB3000 and 2 bass shakers on my theater seating. Will be ordering your calibration disc soon.
Awesome, Mike!!
As always, you are spot-on and word-perfect.
If there’s a better, more articulate breakdown anywhere on UA-cam, I’ve yet to see it!
That said - the news is disappointing.
So, a question - If we were to set up front wides and use upmixing/matrixing methods such as DSU, wouldn’t that just be as effective as upmixing 5.1 to 7.1 has been ?
I'm glad that you got some use out of that experiment of maxing out the object count. Sorry I keep giving you homework, man! 😁
You're right about wides, but I would add that now that the Dolby Surround upmixer actually supports them (it didn't at first), they are at least useful if you need to fill that gap in your room. But honestly, if you play the test tone at the wide speaker position and can hear it image between your mains and surrounds, I don't think you "need" wides. You can line up distance/delay such that you'll at least get a decent phantom image there across your front row of seating. Barring weird shaped rooms, I definitely wouldn't prioritize wides. THAT SAID, Netflix masters to 9.1.6 as a standard now, so pretty much all of their original content should have decent wide use.
Yeah and at least Neural-X uses them if your processor has DTS:X-Pro, so people can get use from their Wides and other height channels when upmixing. With native Atmos, we are at the mercy of the sound mixer.
By the way, this is Nu Soard Graphite from AVS Forums.
@@FURognar Hey, NSG! I guess you know who I am there. 😃
@@TheReverendSlim yep
Hah! Yeah, it ended up being usable. I had no clue...That's good news about Netflix. I'll be optimizing for 9.1.6 in my music mixes, so that will be interesting to experience.
Very informative video brother. I just setup 9.4.6 in my new theater. I noticed from the beginning that there’s not much information coming thru the front wides at all. But when it does it definitely adds to what’s going on. Is it worth the money for the speakers and amplification to do front wides? It all depends on what the listener wants. I think after I have had it for a couple months I can take it or leave it. But I bought the 16 channel processor so I want to utilize all channels. I definitely need to order one of your setup disc.
i bought 16 channel processor as well… i only hear wides when i play music through ALL STEREO…
I totally understand. I will be making new Atmos music mixes optimized for 9.1.6, so stay tuned!
great video. the main problem seems to be.... mixing engineers are not given enough time to mix things properly.
Yes. Not enough time or $. They essentially are the same.
Right...and it's on the mixer as well...there was only two weeks to make an Atmos track for James Bond, I would NEVER take that job. At the end of the day, these guys are just trying to make a living and I doubt they actually care as much as people in FB groups think they do.
Good video as always! Love the explaination. I have a 9.3.4 setup. Front wides do features quiet often but as you said it is very release dependant. Some Netflix content uses them, Troll was a good example. Other releases like Ready Player One does not use front wides at all. There is no set standard but I do wish they were used more. I find releases that do take full advantage sound more immersive.
Ready player one does, Shane's trinnov didn't, but for mine an old 11 channel avr will, av 7702, they are literally always on, I feel like with anything over 11 channels, even if you have wides the wides don't work, always literally always on, gimme some films and I can test for discrete
I may have to set them up and set aside a couple weeks to run through a bunch of films.
@@TechnoDad It's definitly worth doing. This week I signed up to Apple music and I'm surprised at just how many songs use front wides. Clearly they aren't mixed using Login with the built in Atmos features though as this only supports a 7 channel bed layer.
@@ShortCircuitPS2 I just added the Marrantz AV10 and am now running front wides. I don't think you are understanding correctly. A 'Bed Track' is defined as a 7.1.2 configuration no matter which DAW you are using. Logic, Pro Tools, Nuendo, Resolve...it's all the same. A 'Bed Track' is 7.1.2 on every system, so the mixer has to make an object move through the area I pointed out in the video no matter which production software they use.
Nice information. I have unrelated question. You do have ML ESL previously, also you reviewed MK S150. In your opinion which one is better for HT/movies?
Thank you. You helped me choose 7.1.6. I don't like upmixing if it doesn't do it right and just sound good. Theres people that have a soundbar and use the upmixer options with dolby atmos, saying how they like the sound bubble affect. lol So it sounds like that for front wides to me.
I wonder if this would be true with DTSX also. One would assume so, but (if I'm not mistaken) the format is less "cemented" into where each speaker must be placed. The correlation between the audio & speaker might exhibit different results. That would be an interesting experiment. Great video TD
Thanks Double T! I am hoping to get into mixing DTS:X soon, but still have yet to spend all the cash on the software.
DTS:X is a different beast all together. Its all messed up!
Its supposed to be an Object based format, but the base of DTS:X is channel-based! Its 7.1.4 to be precise. If any DTS:X movies include Sound Objects, they are added on top of this 7.1.4 base mix. Apparently only a handfull of movies from Wellgo USA use Objects with DTS:X....I have one...Detective Dee and the Four Heavenly Kings. There are maybe somewhere around 10 other such movies.
All the other DTS:X movies are channel based with 7.1.4 channel mixing.
The interesting thing about DTS:X is that its x.x.4 channels are based on Heights, like Auro3D, not Tops like Atmos. If you label them as Heights, they play normally. If you label them as Tops, they try to image between the bed layer and the top speakers so the height information is no longer discrete. Thus its better to label your upper Atmos channels as Heights instead of Tops for better compatibility with DTS:X.
Lets not even go into DTS:X-Pro. Thats a whole other can of worms.
I've been PREACHING this for a couple of years now. No one believes me. I get so mad when a sound pans across the rear soundstage (often) and it skips my center back because they used that 10 speaker section that is "channel-based". In my case I intended for my center back, with the help of the surrounds, to image and take the place of back surrounds. With Atmos this doesn't work... as you also found out... Atmos is wonky with 5 bed layer speakers. I have 6, but Atmos treats my system as 5 speaker bed with an added center back only used for objects between surround backs.
The maddening part is Denon/Marantz and even McIntosh all support this single surround back setup (exclusively in place of the traditional surround back pair) and yet NONE of the documentation mentioned that it wouldn't work as predictable with Atmos... only that the setup was supported by Atmos.
I have a question for you... is DTS:X (or IMAX Enhanced) all strictly objects without this 10 speaker bedlayer, legacy channel mix? I suspect it is because my system works perfectly for that. Wish I could make the market move to DTS:X. Front wides will always work (when the content is appropriate) with DTS:X content, never skipped over.
I remember you’re previous comments, Joe. I ordered more speakers and more speaker stand to try and tackle your issue and another layout Denon has which is 7 ear level but with front wides instead of surround backs. I hope to do a video about it once the new gear arrives.
Thx for the video. How can I get a copy of the dolby atmos renderer?
I bought mine from Dolby. Search Dolby Atmos Production Suite and you'll find it.
The gold standard is 7.2.4.
6 speakers on top causes the issue that the localization of the objects gets worse, since you start hearing the speakers rather than the object due to an overcrowded top layer. Some guy who mixes Atmos soundtracks for UHD Blurays said so himself. He recommends a 11 channel setup but if you have/want 13 channels then you should rather use Front Wides. Although he said that they typically dont even use them since its a very niche setup that never got established because the placement of the Front Wides is a huge problem for most living rooms. So they get ignored almost all the time. Just stay with 11 channels (7.x.4) and rather get 2 or 4 subwoofers.
Hi ! Thanks for this great video. I also purchased your awesome Spatial calibration disk. Super helpful for my 9.4.4 system. I had an additional question on wides. I've heard 2 different answers on their height placement. Some say it should be at the same height of LCR, some say it should be matching surround height level (if different from LCR). I can't find an absolute guidance on that. Thanks if you have any tip ;)
Ooohhh...I never thought about this one. Since it is supposed to be between the front left and surround left, I would keep it on the same plane as the front left...but on the other hand, maybe it's good to put it in between the two speakers on a vertical plane as well? HMmmmmm...this is an interesting one. I would imagine there is no hard and fast rule about this.
@@TechnoDad this was my guess too. I had a look to Dolby recommendations for Atmos mixing studios and they consider wide as surrounds but they also consider surrounds should be at the same height as LCR ;) They also say the wide (and surrounds) should be higher than 20 degres of elevation from the listener or 0.7 of the height of the Atmos.
@@davrous Dolby contradicts itself in the same page! One diagram has speakers at A, and the second one has speakers at B. It's mind boggling anyone can get it right.
Yup, a top-class video !!! Thanks for demystifying this stuff and giving us a sneak peek into the audio-mixing world !!!
You are very welcome!
Couple questions I have:
-Why can't front wides be added to the bed track and then be matrix to 7.1.4 if FWs don't exist?
-Does or will DSU playback utilize the FWs with a Native Atmos Track? Is that a good idea just to use additional available speakers?
-DTS and DTS:X tracks automatically just upmix with Neural X, Correct? Are FWs worth it for DTS native Content or if using Neural X on any content?
I know it's another codec? I think, but I'm curious.
Some more advanced AVRs will synthesize wides to expand the fronts even with non-dynamic object mixes. Whether DSU supports wides depends on how new your AVR/processor is because an earlier version of DSU did not use them but current ones do. And DTS:X should use any speaker available by using Neural X processing for any non-standard speaker location.
Very interesting discussion. Thanks Channa.
You're very welcome, Jeremy!
great vid! I guess there is no need for 13 plus channels of amplification at the moment in this regard, but how about Auro 3D does it up mixes to make wide channels more usable? if not may be a 9 to 11 channel amp would be the sweet spot?
I don't know if Auro-3D up-mixer will utilize Front Wide speakers as they are not part of the Auro layout. Auro barely made surround back part of the layout until a 13 channel AVR came around.
@@TechnoDad thanks for your response! will bee looking forward to learn more from you. Thanks
For the base .2 height speakers, is it the front or rear set? in other words, is the object based sound occurring in the front or rear heights for a .4 system?
The wides are nice for soundstage width when wide synth mode is enabled. Some content sounds better that way. Diffusion at the first reflection point would have a similar effect.
I see! I have not used synth mode. I am mainly talking about native content.
As usual, interesting observations. "Debunking Atmos" - it turns out to be very complex and filled with user variation.
Coming forward from six months ago, has your opinion on speaker placement (up in the corners of the room) changed?
Love your channel and all that you guys do. - Cheers!
Hi Garry! I still roll with the 7.1.6 layout in my previous video. I may have to revisit that one as I have been collecting a ton of data from that video of actual viewer experiences.
I really enjoy these videos breaking down the way surround sound works with different setups.
As we move toward more common object based sound mixes, these will see more use.
Thank you! Yes, we will see more use...maybe I should scream this at the top of my lungs.
Nice Job thanks for the video 😃
Thank you!
Great video. Made me wondering though. Wouldn't the upmixer utilize the front wides in a way that is not so different from the situation when they are used by the mixing engineer? I mean they would be used either for panning from front to back or for widening the stereo image anyway.
Yes, exactly. Upmixers would use front wides.
@@TechnoDadthen why bother for the mixes not utilizing front wides anyway? :) I believe they would be used (with upmixer) almost as good as if they were mixed in the track.
Nice job! I have been running front wides in my HT for some time now with an EMOTIVA MC-1 in a 9.2.4 setup. Not the greatest of processors I know, but a significant improvement over the MARANTZ. My front wides are KLIPSCH RP500M wall mounted. All I can say is that I am always pleasantly surprised when a sound mix makes use of them. Last nights feature film was 4K UHD APOCALYPSE NOW FINAL CUT, and it does. As you say, look for it only in remixed sound tracks and newer releases. TOP GUN MAVERICK is another good one. I would not take extraordinary measures to have front wides, but if you can swing it without too much cash and trouble, I find it nice to have. My current physical channel limit has been reached. But my HT journey continues, in thought anyway. With a single row of seating in an 18ft by 27ft rec space, my thoughts turn to elevation channels. Love the four KLIPSCH 5800’s in ceiling, but wondering running an additional pair further forward, or on front wall, would be worth it??? I could either give up the front wides and run a 7.2.6 setup, or go crazy and upgrade the processor adding two more channels and amplification. Of course, there are many other next steps I could take on the journey!!!
Top Gun Maverick has very few moving Atmos objects which is what utilizes the front wides. Front wides have no bed channel info, only objects unless you are upmixing. To really demo your front wide channels try the Atmos version of Godzilla vs Kong or The Matrix.
@@easyrider2020
Oh, right. I do run up mixed most of the time. Thanks for pointing that out.
I think 7.1.6 is the best solution - ua-cam.com/video/5FSBMUNmMyE/v-deo.html
i do not agree because you just talking about native content. but we use upscalers and they utilize front wides all the time when something is panning from left to right or back to front and vice versa. the same when something is going from the bed layer to the top layer. in europe there is not much atmos content in the streaming portals. so everybody is using upscaler for their atmos/dtsx or auro 3d setups. further... many native 3d content is mixed so bad... the in the most cases the upscalers sound better. so at the end the wides are working the whole time.
Techno Dad, do you know if Trinnov's 3D mapping places sound in the wide speakers even if the mix does not support front wides?
If you have sound moving from the front left to the left side surround, does Trinnov move the sound into the front wides before it reaches the first left side surround speaker?
I do not know...I could ask Shane and see what he says.
they are absolutely worth it in the context of psychoacoustics. there simply is too much physical space between the front left and right channels and surround side channels to give a consistent phantom image across them.
In a better world, they would have been introduced into the consumer market as soon as surround rears.
People always have a reference film as their goto but nobody has this for multi channel music 🤔any good albums out there?
Pink Floyd- Darkside of the Moon
I have been mixing music in Atmos and making it sound trippy AF! LOL! Email me for the downloads - TechnoDad55 at gmail dot com
I'm perfectly happy with 3:1:2 with rear ceiling speakers.
It would be nice if you could make a video just like this with 4 Atmos vs 6 Atmos if there really any benefit adding top middle.
We kinda' already know the deal on that. Some mixes use only the 2 height beds (like Ready Player One). If you have 4 heights, those height beds image between the 4 speakers. If you have 6, those beds come from top mid only and the front/rear heights aren't used at all. But if there are also dynamic objects in use in the mix, it will use all 6 speakers to steer them better. And more and more mixes are being done now for heavy dynamic object use, so there's definitely some benefit to doing it.
For my money, the question of 4 vs. 6 heights comes down mostly to whether you're supporting more than one row of seating. With one row, good placement of 4 can get you great results already. With multiple rows, 6 will help you get that same great result with more seating locations.
Hi BobbyDigital! Is that a RZA reference? Anyway, I feel like 7.1.6 is the optimal configuration.
Just make one 9.1.6 Atmos mix, or one taking full advantage of the 24.1.10 specification.
As for alternate mixes, there should also be IMAX Enhanced DTS:X and Auro-3D 13.1 mixes.
And also Dolby Pro Logic II and mono downmixes (for mobile devices and stereo setups).
See that's the thing...to mix DTS:X and Auro-3D, it's a bit different and it's not as plug n play as me making Atmos mixes in 5.1.2, 7.1.4, or 9.1.6. I did order some Apple AirPods Max because I can make on optimized mix for those headphones.
@@TechnoDad Can you elaborate here? I'm interested.
Yes imperative, with most homes a shallow room is the usual in the UK where the sides are wider than the fronts, my wides are always on but some movies use wides as surrounds for some reason
That's interesting. I will be making more Atmos Music Mixes that are optimized for 9.1.6, so be sure to stay tuned!
Great video. I suppose the movie house has to be willing to pay the sound engineer to care enough to take the time and make things as abject also. I'm guessing my Marantz 7705.will be atmos enough for a long time to come.
I swore I saw an audiohaulics video with a professional mixer and what I took away from that livestream was not to many objects are being used in atmos mixes yet. Also most budgets are not paying g for the in depth type of work to utilize the objects tool to it potential. At least that's my take away. Maybe I'm wrong but I was left with the impression that atmos tracks have to potential to be much more complex than what most of them are.
Yeah, they definitely need to up the budget to pay these people. But it's also the mixer as well...James Bond Atmos Mix had a two week deadline. I would have said no to that in a hot heartbeat, but some of those guys need to work.
I’m confused a bit. Dolby TrueHD only supports 8 channels on 18Mbit (7.1 - I assume) Dolby atmos is “mixed” on-top of that with extra meta data for the objects. How come the bed track is 7.1.2 then? As it exceeds the TrueHD “bed track/layer” so it’s already “auto-mixing” 2 objects in as default?
Should have bought it on the pre-sale, but last month I was tight on money.
That was for the bundle. The physical disc or the digital version is still $99 - spatialcd.com/collections/spatial-audio-calibration-toolkit
@@TechnoDad Purchased!
Excellent video! Excellent explanation
Thank you!
Wow nice work Channa
Thank you, Wayne!
@@TechnoDad you realise that you're changing the game right now Channa. So proud of what you're doing 👏
Hey TD....could i take my 2 Front wides bring up the wire to my cieling & make a now 7.2.8 ?. I currently have a 9.2.6. But ive been thinking the sound is still sound at 3 feet or 9 feet ?
Unless you have a very pricey processor, that’s not going to work. What is your room size?
How does DTS:X handle front wides?
Bummer, as I start building my home theater I was really wanting to put in some front wides since I have a large front wall
the void of coverage in your case is even more, so you probably will need wides. No matter how wide you spread LCR - the nearest surround will be very far, and this gap needs to be addressed.
I mean...you can still get them. Just know that you may not be hearing much from them. Maybe in like 3 - 5 years things will be different, but as far as right now, not a whole lot coming out of them.
Excellent find--saves us money which is a good thing
I'm trying! I know I've helped people spend a lot as well, LOL!
Been a fan for a long time and not being nosy but maybe I missed something. What is the reason you are starting over ? My bad
Love these videos on atmos mixing and playback. I am confused on why you think we need releases with more than one atmos track. You've explained how a 5.1.4 mix doesn't always translate to a 9.1.6 system correctly but shouldn't our AVRs easily downgrade and matrix a 9.1.6 optimized mix into a 5.1.4 speaker layout? Shouldn't the studios just optimize every mix for 9.1.6 or higher and just let the AVR do its job of matrixing the sounds to whatever physical speaker layout the consumer has?
In theory, it should work, but in practice it’s not as good as you think it is. For instance, if I place a sound in the front wide left and you don’t have that speaker, the sound will play from both the front left and surround left. If your surround left is behind you, now a sound that was programmed to be in front of you is now in front and behind you.
Does using the receiver’s upmixing activate the front wides?
Yes, they do get activated when you upmix
Not a big fan of 2-channel stereo for music I like surround sound how does Wide fit in with music
If you use an up-mixer for 2 channel content, I think they will run but I haven't tested that personally. I can though...
Great info thanks!!
Thank you, Antoine!
@@TechnoDad Can I ask you a question. I have a 5.1 set-up. (Marantz SR6015, B&W 600 serie and SVS sub) I listen to Atmos Music (via Apple TV4K) a lot and I guess there are not much moving objects (if any in Music?) and like the Dolby Atmos mixes a lot. Probably the most mixing is done into the 7.1.2 channels. So is it better to upgrade to 7.1 or to 5.1.2? So height channels versus back channels
Thanks for information
You're welcome!
As always great video, very informative! Question: On last week's Daily HiFi Podcast (01/30/23) you showed some really nice thick/plush microfiber towels,would you be be able to send me a link where I can purchase from? I would appreciate it! Thanks! :)
I use the 1100 pile for wiping the TVs and I use the 600 pile for holding/moving the TVs. The 700 pile is best for my stainless steel range
600 pile:
microfibertech.com/products/extra-fluffy-microfiber-quick-detail-waterless-wash-cloth-600-gsm-16-in-x-16-in
700 pile - blue/gray
microfibertech.com/products/extra-fluffy-microfiber-rinseless-waterless-wash-cloth-polishing-towel-700-gsm-16-in-x-16-in
1100 pile
microfibertech.com/products/the-blue-whale-extra-heavy-microfiber-car-towel-1100-gsm-16-in-x-16-in
@@TechnoDad thanks again!
Well I was thinking if they can add different languages in the tracks why not do 3 specific atmos tracks. 5.1.2, 7.1.4 and 9.1.6 and you select the 1 closest to your system.
100%!! How many languages do we really need?
At 7:31 - do any music mixing engineers place objects to use the front-wide? I'd assume almost none sadly.
It depends on the mixer. I spent some time with Nick Rives at an Atmos Mixing masterclass and he uses front wides all the time in his music mixes. But he’s been mixing Atmos since 2017 I believe. So it all depends
If it's only two objects for the overheads, then why go with four or six overhead speakers isn't two sufficient.
Yeah, I understand it's for the sound panning, but does it work like a 7.1 bed track with only FHL or RHR playing its respective signal?
If you are talking about the bed track, think of it like using top middle heights...so if I put something up there and you have 4 height speakers, the sound will come out of all four.
I woul almost argue that with Dolby Atmos surround backs aren't incredibly necessary if you have your speakers at the corners in an angled position. My 5.2.2 setup has a virtually indistinguishable sonic presence when objects are moving left to right wrapping around. At least in my sweet spot. I also have a small room size so that may be just my experience.
Yes, it would all depend. At least with 7 ear level speakers, there’s something always in the bed layer. So you should be hearing sound from them most of the time. I wish I had room behind my couch for surround backs in my living room, my 5.1.4 is constricted due to the living room shape.
🎶"And here's another one" 🎶 DJ Khaled voice.
Great job Chana✊🏽
Hah! Thank you!
Can the amp not mix it so that a non object sound playing in both the left front and left surround now plays in the wide? Isn't that what happens if you are missing channels?
If you use your up mixer, I think Dolby can utilize those speakers, but in native content, there will be nothing there unless it is placed there.
@@TechnoDad What about if you are missing channels. e.g. Say you had no surrounds but did have wides and rears? (Due to issues with placing speakers in a room) I currently have this problem but the only way to test this is to actually test it. Maybe you can do a video on what happens when you are missing channels?
Surround back aren't possible for me, so what would happen if I ran 7.1.2, but with wides instead of backs. The bed track is still 7.1.2, but not the same 7.1.2 as mine. How would that impact wides on a native Atmos mix. Would they then get a lot more use as the bed track would start to give them more, or would it all go to just the surrounds?
I suspect this might be a problem. It will sound wonky. I suspect Atmos will treat this as a 5.x.x system first, and what most people hear out of surround backs, it will use your surrounds for. It will image the normal surround content using the front L-R and surrounds. (Skipping the use of the wides, which would be better) basically imaging what most people hear from surround L-R in the place of your wides, without using the wides, then nifty an actual object is played at the position of the wides, it will use the wides for that. So surround data of a standard 7.x.x setup will be imaged to the same coordinate as the wide objects at the same time.
Yes... I know this is stupid. Dolby won't listen to us. I'd love to see if I'm right or not. You could test it by playing a 7.x.x callout of a Atmos Demo disc on that setup. The best result you can hope for is it calls out the surround with your wide speaker. Predicted case is it will skip the wide and try to emulate the callout without using the wides at all. You'll hear surround callout mostly in the front L-R with a little surround audio active as well. This is how it would behave with a standard 5 channel bedlayer, which is wrong IMO.
I will check this and Joe’s situation when I get more equipment in house.
@@TechnoDaddid you ever check and look into it?
Just curious, how many objects do Atmos soundtracks have in the bed layer? I'm assuming that the bed layer is static in order to accommodate older AVRs and device with limited Atmos processing capability like soundbars or cheaper AVRs. I've seen some of Shane's videos and generally speaking it appeared that objects were usually for height channels.
And I recall you questioning if Atmos was worth it not long ago 😄
I think games are the primary reason to use Atmos and to invest in it. Does the PS5 use height channels?
I've only seen my ps5 use 7 channel multi in
@@doublet147 Yeah, it doesn't support Atmos for gaming it appears
So...you can put objects into bed layer speakers. That's how I was able to get sound out of the front wide speakers. But I think bed tracks are there as it's easier to assign the same track to multiple speakers, like a score or ambiance in a scene. Something that envelops the listener.
maybe better wide than surround side. I have wide, back surrounds and back center
Great video!
Thank you!
So basically this video is saying: STAY WITH 7.1 and you'll be happy and less broke.
Apparently the rear surrounds barely get used either.
i have wides and they only get used when i play music with processor on ALL STEREO…aside from that, they play nothing
@@pharaohacura3618 What about using the DTS X upmixer?
@@kevonmanuel i haven’t tried that as i’m still learning the processor…that really would be interesting
I think a 7.1.6 is the optimal configuration.
Damn Techno Dad, I was sporting 2 Perlisten S7Ts as my front wides that I don't need anymore. They are going on the ceiling now right over the mother in law. Just kidding!
LOL! I mean, keep em...I'm going to start making music mixes that will be optimized for 9.1.6, so you have that to look forward to. Who knows, maybe in like a year or two...okay, in like 3 - 5 years, the studios will want to pay more for mixing Atmos. Who knows....
bring back the Techno Dad Green Hair !
Lol! I think wifey will kill me for that!
I think it was blue at one point as well
@@keepingupwiththejones2933 it started off blue and then faded into green around St Patrick’s Day, which worked out for me as I DJed at two different spots.
@@TechnoDad that was it. Now I remember 😂🤣
Hello Mr techno dad
I have a question. I have the Sony dn1080 receiver and in the settings said EARC on or off and of course I put it in on. But in the back of the receiver only said ARC. And when I play a dolby atmos movie from Netflix the front panel said linear pcm dolby atmos and then stay in dolby atmos only. So why at first say linear pcm dolby atmos. Can you answer that for me.
Am I doing something wrong in my settings.
Hi! The Sony 1080 is pretty old and originally, it was ARC but they said they updated it to support eARC.
You still didn't answer my question. Is arc only or is earc? Because the settings said EARC. But when the dolby atmos movie started the front panel said dolby atmos linear pcm and then it stays in dolby atmos. And is the movie doesn't have a real dolby atmos content you don't here nothing.
When you review this receiver you said that you where surprise how good this receiver sound and all the features that come with it. So just because you have a 50,000 theater system that doesn't mean that this receiver is that old and as a matter of fact has better features than today's receivers. And by the way yes it has earc I called Sony. Have a nice day.
@@josemelendez2910
Lol you good my guy?
Thanks for this video… the more research I do the more I realize that Dolby atmos is far less scalable and far more rigid than I thought…. There’s only select things that are object based. I thought the whole soundtrack was designed to be scaled…. Ie if you had front wides the sound would scatter across the front channels and the wides.
I too am noticing lots of strange behavior and I’m glad I’m able to show people what’s going on.
So, on a 7.2.4 system no problem?
Only on a 9.2.4 do we have this issue?
Yes, only with 9 ear level speakers is this an issue.
@@TechnoDadisn’t DTX pro supposed to solve this issue?
The honest answer most oeople will have is, well that sucks but i still want the biggest home theater setup i can get.
Yup! This is definitely true!
on gaming it works good and upmixin
I bet! Up-mixing is a different story. When watching a movie in Atmos, people are not up-mixing...mostly...
Who in the ht creator sphere could I ping to review 7.?.? Set up with Magnat Cinema Ultra LCR 100-THX loudspeakers?
Oh, and thanks! I am going to play with a 7.2.6 set up over the next few weeks.
Hi! Not sure. Haven’t heard those either.
Do you think front wides are even required for a room let's say upto 25 feet?
It depends…maybe…
So if dolby mix in 7.1.2 you don't need 7.1.4
That's just a bed track. When object tracks are there, having a 7.1.4 is better.
Dolby Track mixers know this. It’s been explained in detail by mixers all over. This doesn’t mean wides are worthless. It’s of course a matter of tastes. This applies for ‘native’ content. But Dolby Upmixer uses wides regularly if your AVR supports it. It’s no different than playing a 7.1 mix with Upmixer where the receiver still sends effects to your heights (which weren’t part of the mix). This doesn’t mean Atmos speakers are worthless. I added wides a few months ago. I knew there’s very little content that natively uses wides but I have been surprised at how much the wides are actually active (via the DU)
Up-mixers will utilize the speaker, hopefully. As of right now, native content is not abundant, so I would skip for now.
I guess they are only good when the bed track mix gets upgraded to 9.X.X
That may be a possibility...but if it can be upgraded, when will that be?
@@TechnoDad channa, do you know how this works in dolby atmos gaming?
Same 7.X.2 bed track?
Or does dolby atmos games, such as the witcher 3, halo infinite, etc, will they use that 9.X.X or 9.X.6 in the bed track/ thus much more often use case?
Be careful Channa . Dolby is coming for your soul 😂🤣
Lol!
Dolby atmos is the new cash cow of home theatre manufacturers.. I think dolby splashed a lot of money
If I could have every angle covered, I would . If I had to choose I would rather have rear speakers instead of wide.
Yeah, more coverage the better, as long as sound is coming from those speakers.
lol, can someone explain me how is it that Dolby Sells us that you can add as many speakers as you like (up to 128) and the object based atmos track will take care of the rest, and now, if the mixing guy didnt have them into account, you dont hear the extra channels? when atmos was supposed to be invented for specifically this reason
I understand that if you have like an old mix, you dont have the info for making a dynamic object, but if it were really an object in the new movies, mixing guy wouldn't have to be making something extra, he would just be moving around in REAL TIME the object, and call it a day
Thats why i guess you can still use pro logic to make for the extra channels to be part of the atmos (like making a front center height channel like i have, Wich in my experience, its WAY more notorious than the two back height channels will ever be, but i guess we will need for dolby to sell their future Atmos z to have something like that....
Yeah, it’s one of those things where the marketing department is making promises that the format cannot cash. In reality, there are few people mixing Atmos and reporting their findings. I, however, love to experiment around with all the speakers and all of the possibilities. Creating my own Atmos mix, I end up laying in bed thinking of cool ways to move sounds around, but when I try to do so, I end up realizing that 40 - 80% of people will not hear what I am doing. This is the biggest PITA as I spend weeks on a three minute song.
@@TechnoDad I would love to do that, what software do i need to buy, whats the name of the one thats use in your video :)?
What do you mean by when you say….. it’s way more notorious?
@@demonreturns4336 I mean that you get more sense of direction, as to where are the sund coming from :)
Techno dad the link is bad for your video on the... more area
Which link?
Money talks. Very unfortunate but 99%of the studios producing movies won't invest the money to cater to the relatively few that are employing front wides. Heck Disney doesn't even do any movie audio tracks well as it is. Their movies constantly disappoint when it comes to audio.
This is true! The studios don't care how much time and energy you spent into putting your home theater together.
Wide synth is worth it alone.
Dolby Atmos is great but IMO it's only great for Dolby Atmos content. What about the other 95% encoding signals?
Ok at a push certain 5.1 movies (just to be able to fill the room up with audio)
When one is listening to a 5.1 movie with the height channels on. One will actually be hearing a movie thats been mastered for 5 base level speakers and yet the same 5.1 signal will be coming out of the height channels 😲 (messes up the whole 5-ch soundstage) it becomes even worse when listening to 2-ch decoded movie with the height channels on. It's only the fact I'm able to turn my height channels off that I was truly able to verify this! But unfortunately most people using a 7 or 9 ch internally amplified AVR won't be aware of this.
That's not quite true. With Dolby Surround upmixing, you will get sound of the height channels, but it isn't the same signal at all. Basically, DSU compares the signal from adjacent speaker pairs to steer ambient sounds to your height. In a typical 5.1/7.1 mix, this would be either sounds spread between multiple speakers for ambience or any out of phase sound between the speakers. In this way, it actually does a great job of making 5.1 sound more like it would in a theatrical space with a full array of speakers. The only way it would destructively affect the soundstage is if you have your height levels overly boosted. DSU is fairly conservative with its steering by design. You have to remember that 5.1 mixes for the home are actually meant for layouts where the surrounds are raised above the ear-level so that they image more generally, so DSU steering some of their ambience to the heights actually helps make it sound more like a stock 5.1 layout than it would without it.
With 2-channel mixes, if they're true stereo or content that was matrixed for Pro-Logic, DSU actually does a good job of extracting the intended surround audio. The only caveat is with older stereo mixes that are actually mono in a stereo container, which would effectively only be played by your front three speakers, and only then if you had Center Spread turned on for stereo content. Again, DSU was intentionally designed to be fairly faithful to the original mix.
@@TheReverendSlim Thank you for your reply that's certainly gives me something to think about.
When it comes to Dolby Atmos I'm no expert and even though I have a high-end 5.2.4 set up with a dirac (professionally calibrated) I have to admit every time I watch 2-ch movie I turn my 4-Ch Atmos poweramp off. In fact sometimes I even turn it off when watching certain 5.1 movies as well. Don't get me wrong I enjoy Atmos but IMO it's only good for Atmos content!. If you got the option to turn the Atmos channels off (and I don't mean configuration settings, front presence) Choose a movie with an underground scene, like a cave or a tunnel. Let's say the movie 'kill command' where the soldiers enter the high-tech underground bunker. Well when I turn the Atmos channels off and listen to the soldiers dialogue (eyes closed) I can immediately pick up that the soldiers are within an underground environment. The spaciousness within the soldiers dialogue gives it away (echo effect) but when I turn my poweramp on (activate height channels) that same scene doesn't become so obvious. Of course the more capable the speakers, the more obvious it will be! Besides isn't it best to listen to a movie the way it was intended to be heard, instead of being under the assumption the more speakers one uses the better the audio will be?
@@totalplonker824 There are purists who would rather hear 5.1 in its native format, and there's nothing wrong with that. Ideally, you would just change your AVR to 5.1 instead of turning off the heights though, so that there's no processing happening.
Agree! wide channels speakers are not worth it and a complete waste of time and money IMHO., i have had them installed and running in my HT. system for a few month only to take them down again because i was just thinking why having more cables running around and using more amp. power for something works like 1-2% of the time? that's how little u get out of wide channels, people with a good quality speakers/setup think/have the illusion that they are getting something out of their wide channels speaker, while the fact it's just that their good fronts/surround speakers channels are doing a great job at imaging and phantoming the image so well, don't believe me? put your ears next to the wide channel speakers and listen to how little if any sounds come out of them during the whole movie.
I totally agree! I think it may be a placebo effect, as people have the speakers and they think it’s just always working.
We been trick 😂
Hah! I don't think we've been tricked, I just don't think these speakers are being utilized much at all.
Auto-3D FOREVER. I’m never switching to DTS or Dolby Atmos
Woot woot!
Thank you thank you thank you thank you.
You are so welcome!
What in God's name you are talking about, holy molly , I think you are the only human been on earth that cares about that. Do you really think that people care about that. I guess that you tube tell you, listen you have to talk about something. I don't want to sound negative but you doesn't leave me any choice. I wish you the best.
Talking about how people are spending money on something they will not get a return out of. Do what you wish, I know the truth is a hard pill to swallow sometimes.
There are 204 comments. 204 people that care about this topic. Thanks for thinking outside the box TD. Loved the spacial audio tool kit I purchased from you!!!!!
There was no mention of the Dolby or DTX up mixers that spread sound into the front wide speakers. Although from an encoding stand point, it could be said FW are not worth it, many really champion the experience.
Yeah, this is more about native content. Up-mixing does engage them, but then you are not holding true to 'artistic intent.'
8:30 TD is so funny. You ask why nobody talk about this? Well, here is why:
1. Front wides is invention of DTS, not Dolby. Therefore Dolby trails behind and rarely pays enough attention to it.
2. As a consiquence - most customer level AVRs simply does not have capacity to process AND output these wides. Even latest AVRs from Sound United does NOT sport wide channels.
3. 1 in 10,000 can afford Trinnov class processor, so most of customers just dont care. Mind you, Trinnov has capacity to process 16/32+ channels. Rare consumer level AVR can process more than 11 channels. Even top of the line 2023 Denon/marantz barely can process 15 channels, which is bare minimum.
Eh, yes and no. Dolby had front wides theatrically first, before DTS:X even launched. If you want to get nitpicky about the home versions, Audyssey's DSX actually had front wide support before either of them (and before the immersive formats existed) by way of logic steering between the mains and side surrounds. And every D&M receiver capable of processing at least 9 channels has had support for Atmos wides for some time now. Even my Denon 5200 from 2015 supported wides. More and more consumer grade receivers have included support for them if you want to implement them, because it has always been part of the core renderer from Dolby.
@@TheReverendSlim my 2808 from 2008 does not support it. As well as later low to midrange AVRs. Even now 3800/4800 does not support it.
@@level80888 Your 2808CI doesn't support Atmos AT ALL, so of course it doesn't support wides.
Monoprice HTP-1 has an option for mixing in the wides even when it’s not in the mix . It works really well and is pretty much seamless when things fly around the room. So wides are very worth it if your processor has the capability.
@TheReverendSlim actually D&M dropped wides shortly after that. It was around when Heos was added. Receiver wise only the 8500, 6700, a110, A1H, and I believe Marantz 8015 have had Heos and front wides.