Why "Fake" Downtowns Are The New Malls - Cheddar Explains
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- Call them what you want - lifestyle centers, suburban town centers, insta-cities. Found in suburban neighborhoods around our major cities, these compact outdoor malls are everywhere. But… why do they exist?
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The biggest problem I see with these is while they are walkable you can't walk to them. They are often along busy roads and divided from the neighborhoods they are intended to serve. Second problem is while there are garages at many of these, many still have crowded roads within making them unsafe for wandering children.
Which is why in Europe and Asia, these are always built right next to residential developments and transit hubs.
very true. The one by me is also very ritzy, I think our biggest problem is classism in America, and we see poor people as some foreign diseased creatures. organic mix used neighborhoods have people of different socioeconomic backgrounds living together instead of good and bad neighborhoods.
Almost all of the examples in the video have apartments connected to them. You can definitely walk.
@@ianhomerpura8937 To do that in the USA would be the kiss of death for the whole place. You know the reason why already.
@@mycollegeshirt But poor people ARE "foreign diseased creatures", as you called them. The whole point of suburbia was to not have to put up with the misery of daily interactions with society's worst.
I definitely prefer these fake downtown over a shopping center that’s 90 percent parking lot with no walkability.
True af
True! But sometimes uniqness matters. cities and towns have become amazing is because thier different. The box big chains have incentives to not only kill mom and pop stores but even small buisness too.
Ive been to santana row shown in the video. It still has a ton of parking lots. In fact, alot of the buildings in the background that look like apartments and the like are actually vertical parking lots
But it is still usually in the middle of nowhere surrounded by parking lots. That's not actual walkability.
That's a good point, but if it's really hot/cold outside I would much prefer to hang out in a mall. The solution to this is quality connections to public transit which is done well at Mall of America.
As someone who lives in Maryland outside of DC and grew up here, I've been to a lot of places like this. The only real sticking point I have with these, which you didn't mention, is that they are still VERY car-centric in their design, and there is little attempt, if any, to connect them to wider transit networks nearby. These are places you either live in and drive away from on a regular basis, or drive to from the suburbs. Since they are very difficult to access without cars, they are still a part of American urban planning that is keeping us attached to cars, and that sucks.
Sounds about right. I was over at Downtown Crown in Gaithersburg (for those not familiar, this is a similar fake town center development), and while it is near public transit in theory, I could never imagine someone taking transit to or from there. It's pretty much car-dependent, despite its trying to mimic a town center.
Just say Pike & Rose, Downtown Crown/Rio, and Crystal City
Nailed it.
it has to be solved regionally. if density is only implemented in small clusters in the whole region while the remaining area is endless sprawl, you can't build good network of transit that serves a lot of people and also inexpensive
@@star24ize In theory, you could but it would still be expensive and would likely require a lot of infrastructure
Critical difference to keep in mind: these are private retail spaces operated solely for commercial interests. It is all private property. There is no actual public space where the bill of rights applies: right to congregate; right to petition the government; right to speak even if the message is a dissenting one - or one that distracts people from shopping.
And that's the fake part of it.
That’s an important point.! I have heard of that but I temporarily forgot about it and it is important because these new town centers seems to give an atmosphere of a public place but it is private and the rules are the companies rules and not the nation or the cities rules.
It highly depends. On main streets, everything is also privately owned. The only really public space is the sidewalk. And that is also true for many town centers. The streets and sidewalks are often public and you do have rights there. If you talk about squares and parks then I agree BUT some town center also has city's park there and those also public.
@@hoaquach6887, with respect, a lifestyle center/redeveloped mall does not include publicly owned exterior space. I concede I don’t know the legal status of the exterior spaces at Reston. Like the streets of a gated/HOA housing development, such a “town” May in fact have only privately owned exterior spaces where first amendment speech rights do not control. As to the sidewalks, streets, and parks in true towns. Yes, they are public and the shops are private. That’s my point. In a true town, those are publicly owned and controlled spaces. Civil rights law governs their use and the right to speak in those places. Or for employees or the public to picket in front of a private store ir bank. In a life style center - what takes the form of a public square is private property operated for the commercial benefit from the landowner. The corporation renews, alters or eliminates the open space as it sees fit at its expense - not the public’s. Freedom of speech law does not apply to private entities in the US. The landowner can exclude any person for engaging in speech based on the content of the speech.
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They need to have more mom & pop shops. Tired of season the big chain stores.
they tend to have higher prices that most people tend to not want to pay or merch that is really niche. I live near a lot of these places, and many end up going under because people want the ambiance of a high street more than they want to part with their money in any of the shops.
Why, you don't like TCBY?
Then live somewhere rural.
I noticed that in Denver .
Mom and pops arent able to hire alot of ppl. Sometimes they cant even hire anyone
I live in one of these, and it’s filled with little independent shops. I love all the events and community gatherings that happen. Moving to this town meant leaving everyone I knew behind, and this makes it easier to find new friends and build community. I think it’s a step in the right direction. And if done carefully, it can be wonderful.
Thanks for that insight! It doesn't feel like The Truman Show?
@@cheddar lol. Not at all. It manages to hit the sweet spot. I hope it continues this way forever.
@@BasicallyLauralol Hopefully we can start investing in our historic city centers again instead of trying to rebuild them far away; probably so people that want to live in a mixed use environment don’t have to encounter the problems that still need addressed in many major municipalities. :/
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It just feels like we’re building new places how we should be building them.
I think it's a step up from the ugliness of malls, but it's unfortunate we can't just do a better job of zoning and actually create real and better cities again. These places lack the diversity of style and intrigue that real towns offer. These stores also tend to cater more to corporate retailers and restaurants, which actually is only minimally beneficial to the local economy compared to local stores and restaurants.
Yeah, Its pretty stupid how the Cars are always the first thing on peoples mind when designing a new way to live or a community. I dont see how we cant zone and design better communities, while still finding ways to incorporate cars. But instead, make the communities for the people and not the car.
Cars arent going anywhere, they are forever here to stay. So why not build for humans instead of cars. Its not that difficult. I say this as someone who is absolutely pro car and refuses to live without them, But god is it annoying to have to rely on it for everything at times. Imagine still being able to have your car, but be able to walk to work or still own a modest sized home, and still have amenities within a 10ish minute walk from your door as opposed to a 15-30 minute drive across town.
This lifestyle is somewhat easy to do in Canadian suburbs since most of them have smaller town centers within the neighborhood and the apartments and multi-family dwellings are placed clear to them. You could even pull it off in a single family home if you buy your home in just the right spot as some suburbs have walkways to shopping centers. A few of the older suburbs (2000s and older) also have some public transit). You’re still screwed without a car if you need to go outside of your neighborhood, however and even in these types of town centers you’ll probably have to walk across a sea of parking lots to get to many of these stores.
In America, however this is almost completely impossible. Town Centers are usually placed a few miles from suburban neighborhoods and if they’re adjacent, they’re usually blocked off from these neighborhoods with little or no sidewalks anywhere. Public transit is usually nonexistent in American suburbs as well.
We already have real cities with real downtowns. The people living, eating and shopping there prefer these to cities. Especially older people. The Domain in Austin comes to mind and how people are choosing that over the already very authentic downtown there. Happening all over America as cities degenerate back into urban blight.
@@RPhelan99
They mostly don't have a choice. There is highly restrictive exclusionary zoning that prevails... Most people don't mind having green grocery shops, barbering shops, hair desserts, gyms, diners within walking distance of where they live... It is legal for such establishments to exist...
Cope
I live near one of these places. I like to call them New Urbanist Communities. I really like them and I fully welcome them.
My only problem is when they do not have transit access, and/or they do not have walking/biking paths leading to them, thus encouraging everyone to drive there, thereby totally defeating the purpose of the walkability aspect.
I love them. It's walkable. Good for mental health
Imagine that an entire city is built like this, complete with public transportation, bike roads, etc... and you basically have what the cities in Europe are like.
the whole idea is you never need a car, you will live in this tiny area
We have a few where I live and they are neat and I like them but, they are kind of a pain when you live in Central Florida where it is ungodly hot for 9 months of the year and the never ending down pours. The one closest to me has a bunch of different kinds of housing around it making it nice for those people to walk to but most don't, they don't want to get stuck in the rain with bags of stuff so even those people drive.
And the only thing that these Urban places like that is in dire need is basically news Town or city centers or squares for events, enterainments and socializing.
Its a good step towards the right direction. However, there's always this uncanniness to some of them. The worst of them has everything is dictated by the owner of the entire "town center" instead of the community. They are still private properties that can accept and reject certain businesses and social activities on their "public space."
That’s true. I won’t mention any names but the owner of the town center is in charge of the businesses and can make the businesses property rental much more expensive than normally it would be for the ones nearby but just outside the so-called fake town center so mostly you have the more expensive stores instead of a combination of farm market stores or mom and pop stores
Yes, as mentioned in the video, they lack the tattoo shops and dive bars-- i.e. the gritty realism and authenticity of real downtown centers, with odd assortments of comic book stores, local hardware stores, a flower shop, a vacuum cleaner repair shop, and whatever unique little stores that are found in real downtowns. All these new centers have a sameness to them, and they are still built with the spaces too far apart from each other to truly be "walkable". And you cannot get to them except in a car. Plus everything within them seems all very structured. The activity in the "town square" is forced scheduled yoga sessions, or some poppycock like that rather than just a wide assortment of people from all different socio-economic strata lingering and enjoying themselves. It is all basically the same socio-economic middle-class people who live in the suburbs. And if you do not belong there, you are made to feel like you do not belong there. You cannot just pass through as an outsider. It's like a gated community, only with shops in it.
Living in Reston, totally agree with this, in fact if you look at the history of the mixed use town center, Reston VA was the first planned community like this in the ENTIRE united states. Quite interesting history
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Just because it's the first, does not make it good or right in a Democracy. Works good for a Kleptocracy though.
And indeed, the Silver Line did just open out there so Reston could be a car lite community in a decade or two.
No, it wasn't. That honor belongs to St. Augustine, Florida in 1565. It's not even the first planned community in Virginia; that title goes to the mixed-use, walkable town center community of Cradock in Portsmouth, Virginia, planned and built with public transport access in 1918.
@@carriebartkowiak St Augustine is real, not constructed by developers to replace what was lost.
I lived in Reston not too far from the town center. It was kind of a joke. It was right by the highway, surrounded by parking for the shops. As someone living a mile or so south it felt awkward to get into as you had to take the too wide Reston parkway to it, and I would have never biked there. Once you were there it was somewhat walkable, but you really had to drive to get there. It never felt like a town, just sort of a developer pipe dream with a few OK shops and a movie theater. Vienna, which was nearby, felt much more real and like I would expect a smaller town center to feel. And I actively biked places a lot when I lived in Vienna.
I live in reston right now. With the silver line metro expansion, I feel like reston parkway has a prime opportunity to turn one lane each way into a dedicated bus lane so that people don't have to drive to get to the metro or the town center. And who know, maybe some protected bike lanes as well.
I live in Mosaic. I like it.
I think these areas are progress but they often still feel very fake. It is especially noticeable when all the stores are only from big brands.
100%. I don’t understand how it’s so difficult for councils to get it together and just sell off plots. Why sell the entire precinct to a Westfield type developer and have them retain ownership of the all the public space?
Also, when the fanciest restaurants there are the cheesecake factory, and pf changs.
@@Freshbott2 Because money talks.
@@EricSmith-dx1ll I don’t really believe that’s true tbh. The one and done model has the smallest capital outlay in relation to the entire precinct and is the most efficient at using that capital cause of economies of scale, with the fewest jobs per unit of spending. But there’s no process of renewal and over its lifetime it offers the lowest return. This is the same if you’re just subdividing your own plot, you get more out of it. That and developers will usually incrementally build lots within a precinct even though all the infrastructure is done before anything else. I honestly believe it’s more to do with developers being chummy with city staff and politicians. If you can get your foot in the door first politically you can pitch it to them as your own project.
Which is why less chain brands and more of the local and regional growth is need. Because state planners, lobbyists, zoning laws is what killing it mom and pop stores.
It seems like a good idea in theory, but in reality it’s just an outdoor mall. They’re rarely made a walkable distance away from places, and they’re always filled with crappy expensive big box stores like Zara, forever 21, Lulu Lemon, etc.
What does big box even mean?
@@normalyoutube495 places like Wal-Mart, Target, etc
Yeah, but those aren't "big box" by any stretch.
These stores are targeted towards single childless career middle class millennial and Zoomer women.
@@normalyoutube495 Big-box stores means large box-shaped stores that carry all kinds of things, like a Walmart, Costco, Target, etc. I wouldn't describe Lululemon, Forever 21, or Zara as one though.
The fact that people actually live there gives them a major survivability advantage over malls. If the trendy national retailers and restaurants close up and go, it will leave a nice space for a small business to start up.
It's still private property and you are not welcome.
@@MrPhotodoc lol
@@MrPhotodoc If the developer sells the land, the city could basically sell off the individual stores or average people would come in and buy/lease them. And if they have apartments above, theres always a money flowing in or can be made to become profitable again under new owners.
they arent perfect because they are still a mall, but they have more usability no matter how things turn out. And if a developer wanted to take those Parking lots and put in more mixed use development, then theres even more possibilities.
@@joshuakhaos4451 Except they won't. Once those facades decay it will be sold for another suburban tract.
You realize that these places are not self sustaining, right? They require daily visitors many times the resident population to come and shop of the whole thing goes banko. In the end these are theme parks for suburbanites to indulge in the fantasy of cities without, you know, a city.
How could someone not be for this? even if you are a die hard organic city person, this is a great stepping stone to get people more comfortable with a city like way of life. It gets people who might never have ventured out to actually engage with something resembling a community. So yeah, all good things, and hopefully it keeps evolving and getting better.
They are not public spaces. They are private property and have no use for people other than to grab your money. Stay away!
If anything, these developments have a destabilizing effect on communities, since they're generally populated entirely by large chain retailers that are owned and operated by multinational corporations. They displace local businesses and syphon money away from the community, since all of the revenue at these locations goes into the hands of investors and stockholders rather than local business owners. Also, they don't generally have things like concert venues, public parks, libraries, etc. that are often central features in a lot of flourishing urban communities.
@Narja They're going to age very badly. Like the suburban cul de sac. I think they're very popular at the moment, perhaps at the height of their popularity, and I think some markets are already starting to get over-saturated. The DMV and the Seattle area both have a ton of them already. Any recent large scale construction projects in most places seem to involve these sorts of planned developments. It's beginning to feel very inorganic and cliche. This is not "Urbanism", new or otherwise. If anything, this is neo-suburbanism. "New Urbanism" is a very misleading name.
@@n.e.7647 Actually many do have these things. And they are MUCH better than a mall, let alone a strip mall.
@@n.e.7647 what do you suggest as an alternative?
When the alternative for suburbs is big box strip malls, these “fake” town centers are a great alternative. Even if they start “fake”, they can become real over time if they spur additional medium and high density development in adjoining communities. Cheddar neatly left out the recent addition of Metro to Reston and Mosaic, which makes these locations hubs for public transit as well. Reston Town Center and Metro Silver Line is triggering transformation in adjoining neighborhoods. Malls never did that. Give it time. Everyone needs a place to live, not every job is in a core downtown (especially with remote work), and having options is good.
I expect the nearby Dulles Town Center (which is a more traditional mall) to evolve into more of this type of location as well.
I was one of the first families to move into the mosaic district when it was first built. I can say from a kid's perspective, it's great. Theyre safer than the city, not boring like the suburbs. I was able to walk to target to get things my mom forgot, and it was easy for me to get an after school job in the center. I didn't need to have a car or have anyone worry about where I was. I had all of my high school dates very close to my home so I could leave if I felt uncomfortable, and all my friends liked hanging out around my house so I never had to worry about how I was getting home. They're great. As an adult, I now enjoy city life because it provides the same things, but it's safer because I'm an adult.
I grew up in Brooklyn and Oakland in the 70s and 80s where I had exactly the same things. Cities aren't unsafe, you just think that because you grew up in a fishbowl watching cable news.
I gotta have a garage..i think Garages is where it all happens..where boys learn to be men..Without the garage, what do people do?
@@davidwright873 You would have loved Sparta...
You would love europe
@@davidwright873 ????
Truly horrifying. We should be moving away malls and shopping centers. This is like something from Logan’s run. The whole reason for pushing people into towns like this is to enable easier control. One doesn’t have to look hard to see this. Look beyond reality TV, Social Media and whether the game is on.
it IS very 60s and 70s sci-fi ... like the tv show The Prisoner. 😮
We have one of these, and I can't lie. I love it. It's a mall, but outdoor, but minus the huge parking lot. I love being able to shop, eat and even watch a movie in one area. It's also great for teens or large families cause it feels contained but not claustrophic.
How do you get there?
I feel like outdoor malls should be roofed so you don’t have to worry about weather. There can be plenty of skylights and greenery in the mall.
Why is "contained" a good thing?
@@mojrimibnharb4584 Perhaps it makes you feel safer being in an enclosed space. I think that.
@@retroryan838 Given the context it sounds like "no blacks intruding" to me.
That lady hit the nail on the head. Those things are made for the sorts of people who choose to move to the suburbs.
I feel like it's the people who grew up in the burbs and don't know how to live in the city.
@@Skarry It's all about control...I can't imagine living in a stacked fashion..It's a pretty version of Public Housing outa the 70's...
@@davidwright873 suburbs are a blight. Vehicle centric, anti small business, pro uniformity and over consumption. I've been rich and I've been poor, and I've been both in downtown Chicago and a random suburb elsewhere. Suburbs are much more about control and conformity.
In my City we a Lifestyle Center called The Village at Sandhills. its deep in the suburbs and was built over the past 15 years or so. the original idea of a Dense development mostly happened but at the same time the surrounding pieces of land around the Development kind of took on a character of its own. but the big issue for it is its still very car centric. you have to drive to it there's literally no sidewalks to get to it. they are working on building out a Bike path but its still intersected by 4 Major Stroads. I get the concept and I like its idea but Its still a Suburban Mall. maybe other cities have pulled it off better than it was here but I think its a small step in the right direction
You in Columbia SC?
The village at sand hill is the worst version of this concept, agreed
@@Coldasmold Aye Soda City Local
It will never work in the long run.
@@growingup15 Glad to see the interest in Strong Towns locally! 💪
My reaction could be summarized by “Compared to what?” Are we comparing them to shopping malls? Big urban city apartments? Small suburban satellite town apartments? Suburban house?
I prefer to live in a more historic city center, because I do appreciate original architecture. But I can also see why someone with an office job in a suburban office park would find living in one of these attractive, compared to a traditional suburban apartment or house.
I'm not for or against so-called "fake town centers".
That said, we can all agree that you're leading people on when you call them "fake town centers". I don't remember a time when the word "fake" wasn't seen as derogatory.
Nonetheless, town centers were always planned areas. The difference is is who is doing the planning. So calling them fake today makes no sense.
Is "artificial town center" a more suited term?
Agreed. They're not fake but different
They're fake in that they're not public spaces owned by the people. They're private malls owned by corporations. The right to have a protest, for example, often does not exist in those places.
Yes exactly, really they mean private town centres compared to public town centres is really the differentiating factor
There is also the safety factor. They are kind of like gated communities with retail. I live in a small city with a beautiful (architecturally) downtown. I hate to see it so dead from what it was in the 80s. In the 90s, many buildings were converted to condos in the hope that the downtown office workers would generate an upscale downtown, but investors bought the condos and rented them as section 8 housing, and you know the rest. In the mid 80s, this was one of the top 10 small cities in the country for quality of life, now, social service agencies are on every block. The office buildings are half empty and no young people live or go downtown anymore.
I live in Berlin, and in my neighborhood we have something like this every 1-2 km.
This is historically grown but I think every 2-6Km² enough people live together to support a shopping street.
For me, it is currently only 300m to a pedestrian avenue with all kinds of necessary and unnecessary niche stores.
we're just trying to get to there... it'll take a couple generations but we'll make it
@@maYTeus good luck with that, and let's hope you're allowed to open stores in residential neighborhoods because zoning codes are changed and not because civilization has ended.
Someone else mentioned that the back bone of the economy is small businesses and realized that Americans rely on large businesses a little too much for their daily needs. Maybe add a generation for the shift away from there too
That's the real thing this is pretending to be. These are the theme park version of what you have.
I kinda wish you all had covered somewhere like Downtown Silver Spring or Bethesda Row. As opposed to a place like Reston, which is still relatively new, they are suburban shopping districts that were founded in the early 20th century but have been revamped in the last 15-20 years. I feel like they’re good examples of how these areas can be modernized and cater to a suburban demographic while capitalizing on the Main Street character they already have.
Although that model wouldn’t work for somewhere like Reston which, let’s me honest is basically the middle of nowhere - there are lots of smaller towns or dying suburbs that could use this hybrid-style revival
It would be great if these things actually tied into walkable fabrics of a wider area or could actually connect people to other walkable areas via non car modes
Yes, transit is key, and getting people to use transit. Once I started taking the bus I found I could go to all these cool places I wouldn't have due to lack of parking. But I know so many people who refuse to use the bus, and decline to meet up in one of these areas because they have to find parking....
I have mixed feelings about them. A small one opened on the edge of my housing area. I can walk to it in 25 minutes, but I have to cross a parking lot and walk behind it to get to it. It was obviously built with the idea that everyone would drive to it. I also don’t like that most of the stores are chains that relocated there from the other side of town and not much has replaced their former locations.
From the DMV, I've actually been to most of the B-roll footage of these places in the video. I personally dislike them because they are still limiting like malls were. Once you leave the little area, its just private suburban communities, or parking lots surrounding all sides. Most towns that do this, however, DO have (or had) a veritable historic district that they either ignore (like Avalon in Alpharetta, GA), or pave over (like Rockville, MD). Is it really so hard to build new buildings in the style of older brick row-homes with first-floor retail/dining? Doing so in an existing historical street/district would universally be a better choice than building plastic/glass buildings in a completely new area to give people what they claim to want but have historically rejected anyway.
Yeah it's called handicap accessibility.
@@pavelow235 how would accessibility be an issue?
The main issue is frustratingly legality. Most mixed use buildings (shops with apartments overhead) are illegal to build in the us from decades of special interest lobbying by auto and oil. Why these cities actively ignore their historic districts I really don't know but if I had to guess the new "downtowns" are probably cheaper for buisness to move into and generate enough tax revenue to be satisfactory
The historic district in Alpharetta has not been ignored at all. There are a bunch of new shops and restaurants there. Even the guy from bar rescue open his restaurant in downtown Alpharetta now
They're really just tax incentivized modern malls often owned by the previous indoor mall developers, like Simon, with some expensive apartments thrown in with almost no home ownership options. Many are still largely chain stores and restaurants like the old malls with plenty of private security, but with food trucks and occasional live music to make it not as sterile. It's cheaper for the developer to build and maintain than an indoor mall and they make a killing off the apartments that they can rent for 30-50% more than those outside the centers. Austin's Domain also seems intentionally cut off from the adjacent neighborhoods and lack of connections to the hike and bike trail.
The fact that the apartments rent for more show how much people are willing tp pay to not live in a place that feels like nowhere. They only rent for more because people are willing to pay more.
@@robertruffo2134 That explains nothing. These are people that would otherwise live in a sterile suburb because actual cities terrify them.
That's really the issue. They're like disney but with apartments for live-in guests while the staff still has to commute to work. This isn't community, it's a mall.
I'm surprised with how many B-roll shots were of people doing Yoga. Is that a defining feature for these fake downtown areas? A common occurrence?
It's like how they always have old people doing tai-chi in videos of parks.
Lol....
It must be
🤣
We have a number of these Town Centers in Montgomery County MD and they're rather nice. In many ways, they're more pleasant than enclosed Malls, because they're a mix of small businesses, residential and open spaces. Most suburbs lack a downtown place where residents can mingle and the Town Centers fill that gap.
The Lake Forest Mall in Gaithersburg is being redeveloped into a Town Center concept and I look forward to seeing when it's completed. The Mall used to be fabulous, but it's time has come and gone, sadly.
There are already 3 near Lakeforest Mall (Crown, Rio, Kentland) lol.
I love that you pick 2 of probably the most expensive "classic" downtowns as a comparison. Georgetown has homes in the millions. Personally I think these are a nicer use of suburban space than what it used to be.
The only reason Georgetown is so expensive is because NIMBYs made it illegal to build another one. Abolish zoning laws, legalize housing.
Mosaic is definitely pretty popular. Although I love Alexandria, Mosaic definitely has its appeal for those in suburbs farther out. And Reston now has Metro access with the Silver Line, so it’s got its perks too
Seems better than a mall. We all would love to live in a charming historic town like Georgetown, but the fact is we all can't afford that. So, I don't see anything wrong with providing more 3rd places throughout the suburbs.
I mean this is effectively what a mall was trying to mimic.
You can't afford it because so many people want to live there, but it is no longer allowed to be built like that in the usa. That drives prices up.
But if so many people want it, why not just build more proper real town centers.
It isn't rocket science.
But it is so ugly. We should be resurrecting many of the towns we destroyed at the end of the 20th century if we really wanted more people to have access to proper towns
@@linuxman7777 That would normally require the train companies to come back.
Why rebuild old when we can just make new better mixed use areas? Stop being so nostalgic. Old isn’t better it’s just old.
"Let's build shitty non-walkable suburbs where you can't live without having like 3 cars and then add some fake malls to simulate proper zoning with gigantic parking lots next to it to even be able to reach it"
Those places were built to serve a need for housing that was cheap on abundant open tracts of land, giving people stuff you could not get in the city, like your own yard, and relative isolation.
You can look down on it as "shitty", but those people then looked down on what were then shabby and drab cities as the same. Walking around and taking a bike wasnt what people then were looking for. And honestly you couldn't blame them.
@@WillmobilePlus one thing is not maintaining cities and letting it rot. I also get the demand for singe-family housing but you can have this without having to drive to literally any place you wanna go with proper zoning laws.
Additionally suburbs are like the worst financial decision a city can make. You have the same infrastructure like in cities but for way less people. Strong Towns has a very good video where they run the numbers. Finally you have the environmental part when you're literally forced to drive anywhere, you have no public transportation and risk your life when cycling.
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@TheCoralie87 🤡
0:09 I know exactly where this is (One Loudoun in Ashburn, VA). I've been there several times to watch movies, but I know this is old: there is now no parking on the left side as they filled in that part with more shops and built two new parking garages.
[Edit]: The issue with new/faux town centres is that they still lack good public transport to, from, and within the spaces, so they're isolated from each other in a way that true, organic, urban spaces aren't. That is changing (slightly) with some: Reston Town Center is now connected to DC's Metro as of Tuesday (15 Nov 2022), and Fairfax County has bus connections within the Reston area. But it's still a place you drive to, shop/dine, and then drive from.
A lot of DMVers in the comments today.
We clearly love these more than traditional malls. Avalon in Alpharetta GA is blocks away from what was one of the premier malls in the Atlanta suburbs, Northpoint Mall. Aso soon as Avalon was ANNOUNCED, Northpoint started its decline. 5 years on, Northpoint’s new owners are now redesigning it to be, guess what- a “town square lifestyle center”.
The problem is, that originally these walkable neighbourhoods existed in cities where you could get there easily through public transport or walking. These new places are basically just made for cars, you cant get there easily by walking. Because of zoning laws, there aren't many mixed use neighbourhoods in north America, since everything is zoned.
I actually live right next to Reston Town Center. Been here since 2015 and it has changed in terms of the types of stores you find. Long time businesses in the area are getting boxed out for low-cost/high-profit places like steakhouses and boutique stores. On average you could get a meal between $10-20 before and now it gravitates towards the $50 mark for meals with the businesses coming in. Walkability is great but it doesn't feel accessible like a suburb is supposed to be and instead caters to the office workers making $80k+/year.
When I lived in WA state, I lived in a real downtown and it was very nice. Due to the pandemic, I had to move back to my family in AL, and since I moved back, I have lived in a couple of mixed use developments. It really doesn't feel much different than living in a house. The problem with mixed use developments is that they are never dense enough, and you still always have areas without sidewalks that need them, car-focused infrastructure, huge swaths of parking, etc. I actually walk to something maybe about once per month if I am lucky. My current mixed use development is surrounding a stadium, and yet, there is no way to walk to the stadium because there is no sidewalks leading to the parking around it. I have to drive the half a minute to get to the stadium every time, and that's just ridiculous.
There is one of these areas near me. Well, many, but the one I go to most is very integrated- the bus exchange is less then 5 minutes away so I can bus there from my 40 minute away home. They have a town square kind of thing on a corner with a couple of coffee shops and snack places, a barber shop, furniture store, lawyer, right there and the usual rentals above the businesses, but most of all an assisted living building with all ages. Within a 5 minute walk is many restaurants, a couple thrift stores and lots of other shops. You can also walk to the mall. I think having the bus exchange right there helps. It's a very organic feel, rather than 'planned'. Being able to bus in from all the outlying areas is so important.
definitely an improvement from a mall with acres of parking lot space! organic neighborhoods don’t happen overnight and these new neighborhoods do feel soulless. changes in zoning laws is the best way to evolve single family suburbs into a cute neighborhood with mom & pop shops with added public transportation.
I agree. It’s a good start for what might evolve into a vibrant and authentic town centre. Zoning laws should mandate a balanced development with local and regional transportation, schools, parks, places of worship, community centres etc. under the people of the local municipality and not primarily a developer.
I love it. I used to walk around downtown Green Valley in Henderson with my husband it reminded me of Santana Row here in the Bay Area we don’t buy anything we just like to get some exercise and browse shops and look at the decorations:) it does feel like a more traditional downtown city center.
I honestly really like these spaces, but they're definitely improved by having more independent businesses vs. big chains. Also having regular farmers markets, arts fairs, activities, all helps. If you're in the suburbs, it's a great option.
I agree it's the new mall but certainly an improvement on malls! I live near The Grove and The Americana in California and while there are tons of stores, there are also events, kids just playing in the grass, Yoga, and Live music! Even in LA, which most would call a "City", I personally call it a Suburban City. Places like this bring charm and community to the neighborhood!
This is especially true in LA which is the definition of suburban sprawl and a complete car culture. When you visit the Grove or the Americana, there's at least some idea of a community. Otherwise it's just the damn single family houses all over the place.
Well you have to start somewhere. I mean, would people rather just have it stay as a closed off mall?
People can complain all they want, but the town centers you want took sometimes centuries to evolve into their state today, and you either have to chose good enough to start off of fast, or be dead when you get one block of "authentic" organically.
And it isnt like authentic town centers are these hipster/yuppie wonderlands of boutique shops, and fancy breweries. Most "main streets" in small downs are just boring and basic stuff, so at least there is money behind these new places to give them a better start.
Something is better than nothing; it's a step in the right direction.
I think it’s a great first step for changes America really needs to make as far as re-establishing a sense of place. Anything that gets Americans out of our cars and on foot/bikes/public transit is good in my eyes.
Unfortunately people still believe the only way to start a family is in suburban sprawl. It'll take a new generation of building planning to change that.
You can look at Fairfax Corner, also in Virginia. It’s booming and doing better than Fair Oaks Mall located right on the other side of I-66
You guys should look into Downtown Frederick as it is a quintessential and beautiful town. We moved to the downtown at the beginning of the year and we love it! The walkability, the community, the amount of events happening around town, is just exactly what we wanted. After traveling through Europe that is something we wanted so badly
My mom loves it there beautiful area!
i like these new malls better then the old ones. density is the key to longer term city development. I wish these new malls were connected with mass transit.
It's funny in the larger salt lake City area there's an example of this idea that while trying to go for this look ultimately fails and is just another mall. It's called city creek. It's stores are mostly high end and over priced and the vibe while cool doesn't strike as a town center.
Now meanwhile a few miles north in bountiful there's a better example of this but it's weird. Slowly over time the original main street had been getting turned into this. In fact i think the houses on top of the shops are actually real now and there's a cute little park next to the town's exact center.
Bountiful is really weird though if you are down in the main street area if it wasn't for the mountains you'd swear you were back east in a cozy little town
growing up in maryland where there wasnt a huge ton of these (outside of bethesda, rockville etc which have these now, think pike and rose) and then seeing friends in NOVA who essentially only had these types of places to congregate always made me feel beyond the class culture/not rich enough to enjoy the planted leisure culture that these places try to implement - but that experience also comes from spending youth in old school downtown places and comparing them to the latter. It's definitely a "real" vs "I see what y'all are trying to do here" energy, but for people in NOVA where there's a hyper suburban sprawl, and youth and young adults live a more segregated life and might not even be that aware of it, I saw how normalized and central it was to their life in ways I just couldn't understand. I still think they're tactless af but I will say that i've done way more christmas and holiday shopping at these types of places than I would in a traditional downtown that might have stores going out of business or places I don't even really shop at anymore. We live in a transitioning culture
I don't necessarily think they're fake... they're actually very similar to what the original concept for shopping malls was supposed to be. It's like a starter kit. They aren't authentic yet, but in a few decades they will be every bit as authentic as the oldest communities. They are sustainable and repeatable... and easily implemented. It's a wonderful step in the right direction.
It's important to note that these town centers are actually located in the suburbs so they can be much more accessible to people in the nearby area even those who live outside the walkshed. It can be more desirable than spending the time to go into the city even in areas with decent transit connection to the city. I think rather than blow these suburban town centers off as "fake" people who want more walkable and transit oriented communities should be encouraging their development (especially adding some more affordable housing options) and cross connection.
Other than all the great points people have made, one of the things that really separates these things from a traditional Main Street is that these are essentially built up overnight. A traditional Main Street is something that builds up over time, piecemeal, by different groups that have different goals for their specific land.
Looks very european, which is good. The U.S doesn’t feel very walkable.
It depends whether these are places people will live, or if they will need to be driven to. We desperately need denser homes and walkable communities, and these have the potential to do that.
on the bright side, there are apartments so people are able to live there, but it still caters a lot to cars. However, if the city planners do this properly, they can slowly but surely decrease the number of people driving to them.
@@rishabhanand4973 absolutely
from what i've read from the comments, and what i have personally seen, the issue is parking. the idea on paper is great, creating walkable centers for people to go around and socialize. however, if the area is an oasis inside a desert, there really is no difference from a shopping mall other than housing (i understand parking is necessary for many of these areas, but there should also always be a way for people to walk/bike/take transit to these locations, and not have to walk through a parking lot to do so). the example i think of is gillette stadium in foxborough massachusetts. they've added more amenities with the patriot place area, but i wouldn't call it a downtown or anything. its fundamentally disconnected from the communities around it due to the massive surface parking lot and mandatory highway connection. i believe these are a step up from malls, but to truly fix their issues, we need connect these to surrounding communities, and not make them commuter destinations. some of he examples shown here are much better than gillette, i only use it because it's the closest example from where i grew up. maybe with time, they can actually be connected to other neighborhoods and become, well, actual centers!
From only my experience, the mall has been the only place in the suburbs actually connected without a car. The only reliable bus line and the only place with biking (only place with bike rakes)
A hilarious point there, Reston Town Center is immediately adjacent to the W&OD trail.
But it's not connected. You have to either get off the trail and cross a 5 lane stroad, or get off the trail in the middle of a townhouse community and bike through their windy streets back to the town center (and across another major bordering road). They actually built footbridges over the bike trail but no real connection to it. I used to ride the W&OD regularly but I legitimately didn't even know where the trail was passing RTC because it's completely obfuscated visibly from the trail.
@@ThomasTufts In a perfect world the success would inspire law makers to divest in the car-centered infrastructure.
That's why you should build towns and villages instead of massive uninterrupted suburbs with malls (fake or not).
A neighbourhood/town should be no more than 1km up to 1 mile in diameter, that way everyone can walk to the centre of the neighbourhood even if they live at the outskirts.
In the center there should be mixed uses houses with a main street and a market square, school, public transport and so on, surrounding the center should be town-houses/row houses and on the outskirts single family houses.
That way you get everything for everyone and people no longer need a car, they can have one but they don't need it to go to places. You don't need the weekly walmart trip you can just buy bread at the local bakery and fetch groceries on your way back home from work at the small supermarket down the street.
Surrounding a small town like that should be fields, fortress and farming villages (and not a sea of suburbia all the way to the horizon)
Towns and villages are a tried and trusted system over millennia but suburbs fucked it up and created unsustainable, car dependent places that don't even function as communities any more and leave many people stranded.
Do you still need a car to go there? Then it is a failure lol.
It brings business and social interaction, so it isn't a "failure lol", but I do definitely see your point in extreme car dependancy. This is a small safe spot in the middle of a wasteland
The one in my town is surrounded by ugly parking lots. There is living nearby, but most of the people drive in
This post speaks to my day to day. Dirty little secret: often these "town centers" are constructed as a part of a community, town, or city plan. Speaking on Northern Virginia, the building of data centers drives almost all of this development. Conversely, I live in an old town on the main street. Location and history create town centers, not projects unintended to do so.
In Lakewood, Belmar is full of parking lots and caters to drivers over all else. It has big box stores, massive parking lots and garages and isn't accessible via the newly built light rail a mile north because there is a highway blocking access and you have to walk down another highway with crumbling sidewalks and speeding cars to get to it. Belmar is another place for cars, not for people.
On the other hand, one of my biggest problems with a lot transit-oriented development is that it's just a bunch of apartments, no retail, no office/commercial space, no entertainment. I get the feeling that one day, a developer will come along and just so happen to build one of these "town centers" right next to transit, and it will become immensely successful because people will actually want to live there. Who knows, maybe this is what the area around Wadsworth/Colfax will look like in several decades.
I think its a good step forward, more American town aiming towards walkable little centres, its not much but a step in the right direction. They other thing that should be promoted is individual shops, i was just in San Fransisco and the number of independent and family owned shocked me, the situation is so much better than in the UK, where every town centre has the same few shops!
These serve a purpose, but they do not provide an authentic neighborhood center/ town center, for the reasons others have so well pointed out in the video and in previous comments:
-Owned by a single company who curates tennants (mostly chain stores).
-Often disconnected from surroundings (few sidewalk or bike connections to surrounding city).
-Privately owned sidewalks and gathering places, with private rules.
Of course some of these are also part of the appeal, with the trendy assortment of shops, cleanliness, and lack of panhandling.
It's just not real.
They say you can't "create character" overnight, but these sorts of places won't grow character unless it is carefully crafted by the landlord.
It's anecdotal but in my experience a lot of the town centers in the suburbs near me have a lot of mom/pop type businesses in the smaller store fronts as well as unique restaurants, professional offices, etc. The main chain stores they have are banks, gas stations and supermarkets on the periphery.
You make it kind of sound like a cross between an HOA and a feudal estate.
You know I was just thinking:
what could make shopping malls better? I know, stop heating them and add rain!
Oh Oh! What if you lined them with expensive condos and luxury shops?
@Christopher_Gibbons I bet your dream home is a fallout shelter
Def better than typical suburb but it's still has the fundamental problem. The design isn't flexible and organic thus it can't change with the times. That's what makes cities resilient and thus able to stand the test of time and become money making machines.
Buildings get knocked down and replaced when necessary. Which is to say I don't understand what you mean by not flexible.
@@maYTeus No, malls it doesn't work this way. They need the entire unit to hold up or they all fail. Which is why the traditional model of building still works but malls are dying off.
@@therealallpro Oh I get you. It's just from the video the buildings seem to be more independent from each other than the big box structure of a mall. Therefore more flexible
@@therealallpro Malls are not “dying”.
@@aliquewilliams3080 Just do the bare minimum research.
They should also do this with some indoor malls add a large amount of residence to it and a outdoor space similar to this...
Especially for extremely hot or cold locations where indoor is desired at times.
Yeah, oooooor these are just malls built outdoors so you don't have to pay to heat and cool all that indoor space. This drops the cost for stores to rent space. It also means customers have more entry points, so they don't have to walk forever just to get to the one shop they actually want, which lowers the barrier to buy.
more entry points mean 'prime locations' can appear in more places than whoever is closest to the Starbucks
They don't really address an important point here though: There are housing units and offices in these spaces too. Reston Town Center has a huge headquarters for Leidos, a large Meta office, Microsoft, Google, etc... there are also multiple rentals/condos and nearby townhomes that are all walkable to the town center.
Unfortunately, it is an island in the middle of what is almost entirely suburbia otherwise. It's just slightly too far away from the (very recently) opened Silver Line Expansion of the metro line, so you have to metro + shuttle to get to it, and it's bordered on all sides by multi-lane roads that are generally awful to walk across.
My parents used to live in Avalon (the one that was shown at 17 and 38 seconds). It was so fake/creepy/uncanny valley. They loved it though.
"We need more walkable places! We need more walkable places!"
Some walkable town centers are built...
"No, those aren't how we want them!"
*sigh*
@Sephiroth144 these aren't walkable. What we want is an actual functioning walkable town where you don't have to get to the shops by car. This is just an oasis surrounded by the desert of uncrossable highways and parking lots
Here in SWFL we got some outdoor malls but developers are obsessed with calling them "town centers" funny that you have to drive there (because most of them are surrounded by awful stroads and miles away from any for of housing) but then you can pretend to be in a walkable city for a couple hours
I like this idea. I think they should make them like 10x bigger though and have lots of green spaces and parks, lakes or water features, and trams and ferries and stuff to take you about town, but the town should also be very walkable. Maybe only walkable. I feel like there used to be much more community and connection back in the 90’s but after 9/11 happened that changed. Ideally these towns could allow community, connection, and American values to take root again, and also I think these would be great for older people as well since they’d be able to walk about and interact with more people. Perhaps a cure for the loneliness that is pervasive in our society now.
They need way more grass and less astroturf.
@karenmassey8354 We need a new name for this wonderful invention! Perhaps call it the "city"
@@archimetropolis That name is already taken.
I think the goal for these is to eventually keep expanding these centers more and more until the whole town looks like this and then once all the parking garages you have a walkable city people really want in the first place
These are all over Florida
I agree, it’s basically like an outdoor mall with more expensive shops in some cases
The things they have over malls are they actually house people within walking distance whereas most malls are only shops and surrounded by a sea of parking. With some proper transit and less big chains, they could make fine additions to the city.
to be fair for all the bad a mall is it still is the most connected place in the suburb and provides community space for the young. If you can keep these good traits and get rid of some of the bad things like massive parking lots then it doesn't matter if it's been planned a year ago or grew naturally over the last 100
The big difference is natural town centres spring up near public land so you can't be kicked out for petty reasons. Dive bars can rent there, tattoo parlours, rowdy pubs, small local businesses... places that give areas character, and not some corporate sheen.
But it's definitely a step in the right direction and it's nice to see the US remember what a city or town actually should be.
@@timmystwin I could be wrong but the demographics of these suburbs are usually middle-class families, I don't think they want anything to do with neighborhoods with character
@@maYTeus Sadly they might think like that.
I grew up in northern VA. The old movie theater in Merrifield that was torn down to build the Mosaic District was my go-to local theater, and I spent many, many teenage nights there or at the nearby Springfield Mall.
Old Town Alexandria is one of my favorite places, and I now live in Jersey City, an almost-literal stone's throw from Manhattan. So, I feel like I'm well placed to share an opinion on this.
These areas like Mosaic and Reston Town Center are by and large not replacing actual urban city centers. Instead, they're bringing a bit more of the urban city center 'vibe' to suburbia, where it's sorely lacking.
No one is going to tear down Old Town and replace it with Mosaic 2.0. But if they can replace some of the suburban subdivisions interspersed with strip malls and the occasional full mall with these types of mixed use, walkable communities, I'm all for it.
Are they a bit too corporate, sleek, and soulless for my liking? Yes, sure, but as the expert you interviewed says, that will come with time. And are they still a massive improvement over traditional malls and suburban sprawl? HECK yes.
In fact, I'm headed home for Thanksgiving next week, and now I'm going to take my born-and-bred Manhattanite partner to Mosaic to give them a first hand sense of this middle ground, since they're so eager to move to the 'burbs. ;-)
Good summary. "These areas like Mosaic and Reston Town Center are by and large not replacing actual urban city centers. Instead, they're bringing a bit more of the urban city center 'vibe' to suburbia, where it's sorely lacking." - I think this point is key. They are creating a more urban like setting in the suburbs. When well designed they can encourage a lot of the walkable lifestyle people want. This can be especially true if they connect to other nearby town centers (old or new) with frequent reliable transit. I believe in a lot of America the large, dead traditional malls that have lost their anchor stores would be well placed to be converted to these types of places.
@@jimzecca3961 Yep. Despite the video's title, the host seems to use as the comparison point traditional urban commercial districts and small city town centers (Charlottesville, Virginia's downtown walking mall comes to mind as another example of this paradigm in the same general region), but that's not the proper comparison.
Instead, they should be comparing to shopping malls, and to strictly residential-zoned, un-walkable suburban subdivisions split by strictly commercial-zoned, failing, ugly-as-heck strip malls. The sorts of things that make up so much of our suburban sprawl left over from the second half of the twentieth century.
Funnily enough in the city I live in now, Newport Mall was built in the mid-80s and was a cornerstone of the initial, Gen X revitalization of the area. But the city has since developed dramatically around it and where once it was the cornerstone, now it sticks out like a sore thumb.
So what now? They're planning to demolish it and turn it into exactly one of these new mixed use communities. And, looking down on it from the new high rises down the street from that monstrous eyesore and inefficient waste of vertical space, I'm all for that change.
How does a community sustain this in the Northern States? For example, in the Midwest? The one thing about the indoor mall was that it was WARM AND BRIGHT! However, I do acknowledge that our malls here have also been in decline.
Personally, I do not want to go out, in the snow, the wind, the ice, in my bulky clothes to go and "community" with people. Especially when my son was younger and I wanted to take him out. We both had to bundle up, get the stroller, the food, his diaper bag, winter stuff, and drive into the indoor mall if we wanted to go and get around other people. We did it, but it was inside and relatively safe and I usually bought lunch there. I am from SW Michigan where the snow and yuck is a plenty and when my son was younger we lived in the suburbs of Chicago where snow was still an issue. Did not always want to go out in the grossness of the winter as much. That is why people hibernate at home. It's not so easy to drive even for a few miles, let alone to a fake center.
Anything I saw in this video was where it was warm year-round. I need to be around people in the winter. Thank goodness for Zoom and computers, but it isn't the same.
That is the question I have for city planners/suburb planners. Plus now, who can go out and spend a bunch of money right now eating out all of the time, drinking coffee, going to yoga classes, and stuff like that? People around here cannot afford that. 😒
In the olden days we had hats and coats
What do you think people did before the invention of malls? What do you think people do in nyc? They went outside and dealt with the cold
Assembly Row in Somerville, MA works pretty well for an outdoor town center mall in a cold place
the places outlined was mid Atlantic so not as cold but still has the potential for terrible weather. The issue I agree with you is the price of it. These places are advertised as theme parks and luxuries. Not anywhere for a mix of people to actually live.
When I lived in Germany, I had to get out when I wasn’t working to see my friends even if it was bad weather since if I knew I always stayed indoors I would feel in a bad mood.
So even though I didn’t feel like it I bundled up with my sweater coat mittens etc. and went out and saw my friends, went walking, even went hiking if it was sunny, went cross country skiing sometimes, winter Christmas markets etc. etc. made me feel much better than staying inside hibernating it’s the winter, it helped overcome a cabin fever to little bit but then I can I didn’t have diaper bags to drag around ha ha but I think I would’ve still done it because you need to get to feel better and overcome seasonal sadness disorder and forgot the exact name.
I’m all for spaces that encourage social interaction. These town centers will never compare to a “real” downtown area in my opinion, but it’s great to see public spaces and parks being constructed
Problem with 'real' downtowns...especially in the case of San Francisco...is that there's nothing there but bums, junkies, homeless people, and roving hoards of shoplifters. All the office workers are working at home and it's a ghost town at night. I'll take the suburban 'town center' any day over that.
@gerrythrash6563 there is always some bad in a lot of good. You just gotta learn to be safe and smart on the streets.
The homeless problem is because they stopped building affordable housing and the people living there are preventing new housing from being built.
Besides, it's more likely to get killed in a car accident in the suburbs than be shot in the city
The old town square was a social event--followed by entertainment and then retail stores. The town square was not a 24/7 social event--more like a day or a weekend place.
The enclosed mall failed for several reasons starting with scale. If you need to provide transportation from one end of the mall to the other, it's too big--the mall isn't human-scale. The reason for enclosed malls was simple--all year round controlled weather. The reason for the mall growing and growing (and spawning clone malls close by) was that the business model required massive numbers of customers spending lots of money. The mortgages imposed high rents on the retailers, who in turn had to charge high prices. Then there was the regimentation factor--some malls are more strictly monitored than are American public high schools. Look up the code of conduct for the malls closest to you and determine how many mall rules you've broken in the past 90 days. One thing in particular is a common rule that no more than three teens can be together in a group, or the similar rule that shoppers under a certain age must be accompanied by an adult (age 14 in most places, but I haven't read all of the mall rules). There are good reasons for that--children don't have the $500 or more to spend during their four-hour visit and bored children cause mischief, to name just two. Children go places to socialize, to vent off steam, to have a good time--all of that disrupts the orderly process of fleecing paying customers of every dime. There's no spontaneity in modern malls and pressure to buy, buy, buy (or rather, spend, spend, spend). Malls put the cart before the horse by putting retail and entertainment above the original purpose of socializing. There's not a whole lot of money in sponsoring social spaces.
Disneyland is a model mall. I like Disneyland even though it's a fake downtown. First, the customers are separated from their cars by a distance. Then the customers are carefully screened--right now, that means having both a ticket and a reservation purchased in advance. I still like Disneyland, but I would hate to live there full-time.
I think that the fake downtown centers will fail. They will probably create a bubble economy similar to the enclosed shopping malls and that may take several decades to burst, but developers are looking to turn a quick profit. Fake downtown centers will quickly run into the same issues of gangs, drugs, theft, over-policing, excessive mortgage interest rates, obscenely high rents, market saturation, and emphasis on gouging the customers. Add in two problems that the malls were designed to solve--exposure to foul weather and re-enacting the Bataan Death March. If the downtown center is too small, it will be overcrowded and unprofitable. If too big, the advantages of scale economy will be overshadowed by becoming a big city in its own right (with more than 20,000 customers a day required for profitability) and when the downtown center is more than a quarter mile in any one dimension then "retail shopping" and dragging all of those expensive purchases back to the remote parking lot will sap the fun out of shopping. The ideal "single block" of a city center is too small for economy of scale industrial-strength retail shopping--it's ideal for the pedestrian but doesn't generate sufficient revenue for the investors. I think that the fake downtown centers will fail as previous attempts to renovate the downtown have failed. The money people don't understand the service the customers seek.
Honestly walkability is super important and as long as it's not just shallow bs and can accommodate for organic growth but I doubt that, honestly they may lead to actually improving walkable cities which is certainly important
Honestly, it's good to know people want to be outside and around others. This isn't perfect, but it does seem like an improvement. I'm just glad I live in a truly walkable city.
Rutgers tried to do this with Livingston Campus years ago where they would build a town center for the campus and the town of Piscataway with faux row homes for the fraternities to move from College Ave while adding businesses and restaurants above on campus housing and market rate housing. That plan never came into fruition but remnants of that plan exist on Livingston Campus in the form of the on campus apartments that opened in 2013.
Maybe they are modernish/fakish but better then the SUPER MALL of what many are now dead or dying. Or ready to shoot a modern zombie movie.
It gives a little bit of township style to the area. Even if expensive.
Mixed zoning, too. Where they have 'luxury' rentals in close proximity or directly above the stores. It attracts a certain demographic while also gobbling up any potential land for single-family homes. Someone else said that the land is also private property, so is it really the third place we're looking for?
These “fake town centers” are an improvement over strip malls and suburban sprawl but not quiet as good as older authentic walkable downtowns.
You can’t build the old stuff again and it still have the same charm so we have no choice but to build new walkable areas or just none at all.
These are also common here in Australia. I much prefer the American model of mimicking historical town centres. There is one particular mixed use centre that been developing over the last 10 years in Western Melbourne, and each year I am getting disappointed with how bland its turning out to be.
Absolutely support these. It's really the same as the old, for all intents and purposes. Similar businesses and walkability and better access by mixing in residential on the upper floors. You must realize that the old, "real" downtowns were always changing as well, and marginal businesses were always cycling out. In the modern ones, there are more restaurants and services, and fewer retail shops. Hard to compete with internet retail.
"For all intents and purposes" - except for the fact that - as many people have already pointed out - they are wholly privately owned and thus don't allow for any civic activities (protesting, leafletting) that happen on public streets.
@@scruvydom One economic hard time and they could easily break these stores up into leases, or just outright sell them to whoever wants to buy/lease. And if they have apartments up top, you have a revenue source to still be attached too if the shops are let go.
Another point: Most of the apartments in are usually luxury condo rentals. Makes sense given the high price point of private development, but it make the society stratified or in effect creating a non working class neighborhood
Thats the problem with most housing development now anyways, its never housing that someone who makes 15-23 and hour can afford, its for people who make 6 figures or more, or is willing to have roommates and just pay out the ass for the image of living in a trendy place.
I really think the social issues in Suburbia are greatly overstated, I live in a walkable town near pittsburgh and I don't interact with any of the locals, my friends are scattered across the metro area.
Walkability is important for physical health and for economic reasons, but for social reasons... not really. People in isolated rural areas like the Amish manage to have alot of social connections and people in many large cities have horrible social ills. In reality it is what you make of it, the environment doesn't really matter much for your sociability, it is more of an internal thing
"the environment doesn't really matter much for your sociability, it is more of an internal thing"
The irony of someone presumably belonging to the Linux community - one that has always been aware of the role of environment, whether digital or otherwise, in shaping social experiences - posting what basically is a late-stage capitalist corporate mantra of individual consumerism instead of socialised shaping of environment, is supreme here.
Yes some good points but I also noticed when I lived in a walkable city I would meet some of my friends in a café or restaurant and then afterwards we’d walk home together if their apartment was on the way or to another event on the way because we can walk or take the street car
@@enjoyslearningandtravel7957 That is nice. The suburbanites do that with cars and the amish with their horses.
I live in a walkable place and it hasn't changed my social life at all. Also there are issues of oversocialization but that is another topic altogether.
I think theyre a happy medium between suburban neighborhoods and inner cities/downtowns. It connects suburban neighborhoods and gives them a near by place to walk/bike to without necessarily needing a car all the time.
Also the fake downtowns are a good visual alternative to the ugly strip malls and swafts of large parking lots with single big box stores.
Outdoor Malls....... many, many years ago we had one in Yonkers NY way before indoor malls became popular. " The Cross County Center " lol....
In St.Charles, Missouri they have both an old town (extremely walkable) and new town center... BOTH are extremely successful.
Ofcourse the old town is hella much better but the new town offers things the old town couldn't and vice versa.
Having and old and new composite might be another alternative.
It's a good idea, just needs good transit options and the burbs may be saved yet
lol the hope 🥲
these are all over texas, but are perhaps a little more car-centric than those in other states.
I’ve been practicing landscape architecture for over 25 years and been involved in these types of developments. Mr. Kitchens was actually my design principal…for a while. The new “town village” has a proven track record and can create community spaces in a sprawling suburban area. It’s not perfect but it is a very effective solution to a complex issue.
It solves nothing because it's a theme park, dependent on outside retail traffic rather than any organic local economy. The few people living there drive to work outside and the workers drive there to work. There can be no community space when everyone involved is visiting a corporate owned park with no actual public space.
@@mojrimibnharb4584 would love to hear your solution.
The paradigm has completely shifted since Covid. The “village” concept was an evolution from the indoor mall. These spaces are transforming into spaces to eat (grand food courts) and be entertained. A reinterpretation of the 80’s mall but flipped inside out.
@@michaelmckenzie8597 Stop authorizing suburban subdivisions convert residential areas to mixed use. Throw in some trams and, voila! You will soon have what this disney attraction is pretending to be.
The village in meridian in idaho is a perfect example of a fake downtown, its such a nice compact space with nice shops and food establishments, but its all surrounded by parking lots and strouds, and freeways. Its sooo depressing
I'm for them, but I think they could use a lot more aesthetic architecture. (Like status, topiary, and fountains)
Who should the statues be of? The millionaire investors?
@@maYTeus I’m sure there’s some historical figure from somewhere nearby. It’ll be a good place making opportunity
Then they’d just call it fake architecture.
@@maYTeus I was thinking of fantasy creatures or real animals
@@cruxnajii2056 I was thinking about saints/angels/confederate leaders
My hometown has one of these! It's a lovely place to shop or just hang out/window shop if you don't want to spend money. It's pretty much THE SPOT to hang out if you're a teenager. It's nice to have a place to go where spending money isn't a requirement. Places like that are getting less and less common every day unfortunately