One of the worst things about old-school malls were that all the chain stores were exactly the same in every mall. If you get a bunch of local stores in there instead it becomes a lot more interesting.
Local stores can't afford the rent in malls. It's why only big name chains who could afford it were there. Local governments would have to subsidize local businesses for them to compete but that requires a local government that could actually plan to do that correctly lol
That really isn't an issue though if you mostly stick to a single mall for your shopping. What does it matter if every mall has a Hot Topic? All that matters is that _your_ mall has a Hot Topic.
That was kind of a feature (for the companies in malls), actually. When they're all kind of the same, you can just go to whichever is closer to you and you know pretty much what you're going to get. It means that when someone moves from one city to another, Walmart and Sears and Bed Bath & Beyond and Hot Topic don't lose a customer.
Japan is literally every major train station is a shopping mall, just need to make it an actual destination. You go to the top floor to eat out, you go for entertainment you go for everything else.
You also see this in the EU where many train stations are also malls or at least decent shopping areas. One of the things I love is when I come back from an international trip I can stop at a grocery store in the train station on my way home and pick up some fresh groceries. I have heard that overall malls are doing fine in most of the EU because they are not car centric hellscapes and instead they are part of the cities and transit systems.
Some floors could be residential too. In the US there are a lot of places with too few affordable homes, so even small apartments would have a big impact. With just a safe place to sleep and get cleaned up, someone could get started on building a better life.
They have one of those in New York focused on getting people from one place to the other with easy access to exits, the thieves have bankrupted the entire brand new billion-dollar Westfield Mall / Subway station. Grab as much as you can carry and there's a train and abundant exits to escape quickly without consequence bankrupting every store in the building. The Japanese have a different sense of morality than we do. Respect and all that good stuff rather than unlimited freedom to do what you can get away with if it's easy to escape without consequences.
@@Immudzenthe Westfield Mall in New York City is a great place to still everything from every store and escaped quickly on the subway line call my emptying and going bankrupt call my the new billion dollar Station Mall is a disaster in its planning and implementation, deteriorating it looks just like any other subway station down below.
As someone who's lived near the Mall of America my whole life, I deeply believe walking around without a plan is a great leisure activity and more malls need to embrace adding more things to Do inside other than shop. Make a whole day of it.
@@jijitters if you added more than shopping to a mall you could consider it a small arcology. An arcology is like a building you can live in and do everything in it.
As someone living in the Twin Cities-y’all are weird and I’m convinced the only reason y’all have a mall this huge is because no one wants to be outside in the winter-something that can’t be said about most other parts of the country
Online shopping isn’t everything. I bought something off Amazon recently that turned out to be a piece of crap. The ability to go to an actual store and see the product can be a huge advantage over getting something online and hoping for the best.
Also, for many people they can have the product instantly instead of having to wait hours or days for it. And trying on clothes means not having to return items as often.
@@cupriferouscatalyst3708It’s not like other online stores do better when it comes to quality products tbh. It’s an issue with not being able to try something out before you buy it.
I agree I rarely ever buy online. I have ordered things that never came. I have had to pay to return something that was wrong. There are plenty of downsides to it.
Here in Australia many malls have a public library, doctors, dentist, grocer, bakery, all the basic stuff. Clothing stores come and go, but I think if a mall has the basics it always have a reason to exist.
I saw another video that said in Europe one of the anchors of surviving malls is a supermarket. I remember an eye doctor was one of the (8?) shops in the indoor mini-mall attached to a grocery store where I grew up.
@@sandal_thong8631Eye doctors can often be found in the mall, attached to a glasses retailer such as LensCrafters or Pearle Vision Center. It's an adjunct of the store...
Malls traditionally didn't have stuff like grocery stores in the US, but they've started to become more common. I've been in multiple malls that have adapted a former anchor store space into a Target, which usually has a grocery section in new stores. On the other hand, I've never seen any Walmarts in a mall - Walmart seems to be attached to building their stores, which Target is more willing to reuse existing space.
They have that in the USA as well.. Some malls do have Walmart & Target, grocery store and county services. Malls also have hotels, train stations etc.. Not all mall are just Macys and 100 typical mall stores.
Malls are just covered pedestrian arcades that have existed for centuries. The interior is genuinely top tier urbanism. Just do it like Canada: give them a role as a transit hub (and turn the parking lots into high rises apartments with some offices).
Two malls right in the middle of town here are doing exactly that. Both of them got a subway station in the late 00s, and the huge 70s-era parkinglot of one of them has always been a sore in the middle of what is otherwise a pretty neat area of density, but is being redeveloped now. It'll take a while, but by my estimate the project is going to pretty much double the amount of highrises in the city!
The comical thing is that people who won't go to a shop on a street if they can't park their car within a few feet of it will happily walk across half a mile of car park and then walk for miles round the mall without thinking twice about it.
@@stevieinselby The interiors of malls are generally protected from the elements. Nobody really wants to walk the streets when it is too hot or too cold or raining.
Imo malls in the USA are dying because of non walkable city planing. In Poland, many malls are close to trams/metro and close to center or apartaments. And there are more and more of them.
I don't think that European's understand how large the United States is. Most European countries are smaller than a single US state. There is a reason why car culture is dominant here.
@@perceivedvelocity9914 New York metro area has a population of +20M with a density of +5000/sq mi. Most people live in urban areas. Cities don’t need to be built for cars.
@@perceivedvelocity9914there's a reason we don't really consider the US a "country" as much as we view it as a continent-sized crumbling experiment in hypercolonialism.
The health system my wife works for purchased a shuttered Sears location in the mall and renovated it and converted it into patient offices. This allowed several different specialties to be under one roof. It just opened a few months ago and they are currently renovating the Sears auto location to more patient offices. This is incredibly powerful for their patients. Before their offices were spread out into many different patient offices, now most of them are under one roof. This is also better for patients that allows them to take public transport to the mall. There were no public transports to most of the patients offices before. So this is a win/win for the health system and its patients.
tbh making even a closed down mall a community center is always a good move, we had a mall close down over here for like more than 10 yrs now and its all just been empty space that could've been used/transitioned into something beneficial to the area's residents
it's pretty common here in Europe to have some medical services in a mall, usually on the higher end like cosmetology, esthetic dentistry, etc. but it's nice that people have access to these services in a place they would visit anyway for some shopping and running errands.
We don't need to leave the era of shopping malls behind. There is a place for lots of physical retail all in one place. But the inside of a quarter-mile wide parking moat is not that place.
Indeed malls have too much parking. That parking was only ever used one day a year, on black Friday. Though some of the parking is result of zoning regulations that require a minimum number of slots. Some of the parking would be better put to use as affordable housing. Mall employees generally don't make a lot of money. But if they lived at the mall then they wouldn't need a car or could live car light.
@@Novusod Where I live in Massachusetts those parking lots come in handy. They are usually close to full most of the time.They are a small price to pay for the huge connivence. lol
@CrAzYnAdEz "they are a small price to pay for such a huge convenience" tells me everything I need to know about you lol. You don't even know the cost so why open your mouth to invite the near certainty of being wrong
Yep, the strip mall in my town literally covers 20% more land area and yet still somehow manages to pull in less total taxes due to the fact that about 75-66% of said extra space was literally just the parking lots. It's over double the amount per square foot. But I'm sure best buy and Michael's really appreciates being given such important real estate to pave over so they're just 1min closer for all those who are driving!!
Here in Arlington, the Pentagon City Mall is thriving, probably because it has almost relatively little parking, lots of traffic from tour busses stopping at the food court for lunch, and a direct connection to the Metro.
I live in Richmond, and I end up taking the Amtrak to Alexandria and catching the metro from there to Pentagon City. It is a whole lot easier than driving up there.
My ex used to work there when I was stationed at Quantico. I’d have lunch with her there whenever I was working at the Pentagon, for the the day. Was always a pleasant ambiance.
Growing up as a 90s kid, malls were everything to my friend group. There was one a 10 minute walk from our high school, and we'd spend several afternoons a week there just hanging out. It was a safe, clean, stress-free and reliable place for us to be able to just exist without having to spend money for access, which is something kids these days seem hard-pressed to find. I hope malls continue to evolve and can continue to be a healthy "third place" option for years to come.
Malls aren't dying; "mall culture" is dying. I used to hang out at the mall all day with my friends, maybe seeing a movie but also just hanging out. That doesn't seem to happen anymore, and I think that's why malls seem so lifeless these days. Turns out loitering was good for businesses after all lol!
And a lot of of the reasons Mall Culture is gone It's because of the rise of loitering laws and other legal and extralegal means of Punishing being a child/teenager in public. When everything you do get you in trouble with the cops, The only natural response is to retreat To the safety of your own home.
I live in Lyon, France and we have the biggest mall in France in the heart of downtown. The Westfield Part-Dieu is HUGE and always super busy. They’ve been doubling its size since the 2010s as part of a revitalization and pedestrianization process of downtown, including a new skyscraper, the complete renovation of the main train station etc. It was shocking to see how dead the malls were when I went to the US.
Any malls in Canada that serve large numbers of people originally from Asia are doing well. In my town almost everyone in the mall is an immigrant from India.
@@polygon_dust this is because most malls either are directly connected to the commuter railway stations, have their own transport terminals, or even both. Some even have offices and apartments built on top of them. All of these ensure a constant stream of foot traffic.
In my experience that is because streets are filthy in many Asian countries, at least malls are clean. With the exception of Singapore, that is just like a western country, might even be a bit cleaner on the streets.
@@buddy1155Singapore and also Japan are almost obsessed with having everything clean - maybe because it's often the exact opposite in other Asian countries and was there too previously?
If you compress the parking into a tower or move it underground, and build housing where the lots used to be, maybe with a bus or metro stop, i have no objection to malls. They can be the new downtown of this local community
@@toomanymarys7355 Tell that to the in-door malls all over europe and asia. Personally i live in nieuwegein, an independent city that is effectively a suburb of the much larger Utrecht, the netherlands, and our city's downtown is a mall, with 5 stories of apartments on top. It's the busiest it's ever been. It helps that it's within walking distance for half the city, with excellent walking infrastructure to get to it. It is also a regional bus station hub, and several even smaller shopping locations spread out through the area so you can walk to a supermarket wherever you live.
@@toomanymarys7355 wrong. A lot of cities did exactly that, and so far, no increase in crime. I don't get why the US and Canada is too paranoid to do the same.
my best friend just moved into a new apartment building that used to be a mall in the orange county, california! they're actually tearing down the whole mall eventually but the first phase was like half of the mall.
Same with a dead/dying mall near me, also in OC, north end of Huntington Beach. The old mall concept, while popular for its time, does need to continue to evolve for today's shopping and social habits. Some will always be perennial favorites such as Fashion Island in Newport Beach and elsewhere.
Singapore is now also replacing 2 barely 10 year old small malls with condominiums, as the malls had struggled to attract customers, being located slightly further away from train stations than other bigger, newer malls (even though 1 of them had a skating rink & an IMAX cinema). 1 of the condominiums isn't cheap, with a 4-room apartment (~1000' ^2) selling for almost S$3 million (~US$2.3m) located in a satellite town ~15km (almost 10mi) from downtown
I live in San Diego and since they installed a trolley system that connects to most of our malls I've never seen them so busy before. Surprisingly it seems the believed core automobile aspect is easily replaced with public transit. It's always nice to see how busy my local malls are whenever I go :)
UTC is my favorite mall! The LRT station there is elevated but has footbridges to the mall, and right underneath is a huge bus terminal! Plus the mall was renovated just before the new LRT opened!
Even in east county, the malls get some traffic from the trolley, like the mall near Grossmont Station, Santee Trolley Center, and even Parkway Plaza in El Cajon. But yeah UTC and Fashion Valley get lots of foot traffic
Toronto, London, many cities throughout Japan and China, and even in Iceland, have malls attached to transit hubs. It is always funny to me that US malls struggle as much as they do, where when you have malls that are directly integrated into transit systems you often see large amount of foot traffic and they are not just a collection of shops but social spaces and often times places with a lot of restaurants and eating. My experience has generally been it's the malls that I do not need a car to get to that have the largest crowds and seem to be thriving.
@@unconventionalideas5683 Cars did not really become a fact of life most places until after World War II. The centralization of commerce and bazaars existed long before. Having malls located at places where people pass through follows the flow of people. Having people drive out to the centralized shopping is a relatively new and, in light of how well it is performing, perhaps brief phenomenon.
@@coreyhipps7483 Alas, the US largely doesn't have those transit systems, due to our choice to waste money on cars instead. And we really do have a huge amount of retail space per capita.
In my city, we have a few miles that are thriving and a few that are basically dead. The successful malls are all surrounded by residential areas, houses, apartments, and businesses as well. The ones that are suffering are often in the suburbs with nothing around them but a huge parking lot and a few other businesses that you have to suffer through traffic to get through. It seems location is the most important aspect.
I was just contemplating how every mall in town when I was a kid is still there, and most of them have also expanded during those decades. They are also all in the middle of residential neighbourhoods, and serve as neighbourhood centres so residents don't have to travel downtown for an errand or for going to a café.
To give an opposite example though: I live in downtown Cleveland OH, nearly 20,000 residents downtown, and yet there are THREE dead malls downtown. It's incredibly depressing, especially since all three are grand beautiful malls that are... mostly empty. One of them is even the largest stop on all the converging RTA transit lines and it's still not enough to keep most of it afloat. It's such a shame
@@GavinMichaelsTower City not being successful is painful to behold. However, while the mall section is basically dead, the hotel above and transit below mean the building still sees use. Unfortunately, there's just too much retail space in downtown Cleveland relative to the population and reduced physical shopping demands, and turning that mall into anything useful such as housing would be really hard. I don't know what they can do. I left Cleveland a few years ago and do miss it sometimes. I also lived downtown, but 2020 was a rough time with no outdoor space.
it depends. my city has 3 malls that are still open. 2 fit your examples… dying mall in the middle of suburbia, thriving mixed-use development. there’s another mall that is doing well thats just a suburban hellscape tho. the two malls that have closed in the last 10 years were also suburban, but in poorer areas. there’s another mixed use development, not a mall but walkable and mostly outdoors, that’s doing pretty well. the money aspect is big though… the three malls + the walkable development are on the wealthier north side of the city.
Malls in my metro area: Orlando.gov have slowed greatly- 2004 to 2024 but few have completely closed 🏚 mainly due to business travel, foreign re-sale entrepreneurs, lower income people who want AC but get out of the house, apt with kids. Florida Mall, Mall of Millenia, Altamonte Springs FL mall are all open but have closed spaces.
Where I am a lot of malls have closed in the last 30 or so years and no new malls have been built in 20 years. But the bigger ones have been doing well. I think with all the others growing away it reached a healthy level.
Malls are some of the best places for increased residential development in parking lots. They have one owner, which streamlines the redevelopment process. If we redevelop malls to support new residential surrounding parking lots, they will be around for a long time and support a great, walkable, quality of life. Bonus points if it becomes a TOD with a BRT or Tram.
It seems apparent that some Canadian malls in cities with rapid transit found are still kicking when it became a transit hub or expanded upon their transit services with a subway, LRT, metro, or skytrain service. With it, it spirited Transit Oriented Devlopment practically building a “city mall” area in Vancouver and Toronto. With my small city in canada on certain corridors still have malls and on one street they have 3 malls placed on different parts of it. Not as strong as it was years ago but still surviving with parking lots redeveloped, mid rise apartments around it, and being a bus hub. Though it be interesting if they implement a BRT or LRT on the road to have a better service on a major corridor.
Fun fact: Here in Lima line 1 of the metro connects to various shopping malls along the way. If you're unlucky enough to land in Lima when you visit Peru, try to get to the metro line to see them. The stations where you get to a walking distance to the shopping malls are the following: -Los Jardines station: future mall will be built there. -Pirámide del sol station: Mall aventura plaza is just at a walking distance and currently the area was an old industrial urbanization[from the 80's] being redeveloped. -Gamarra station: it leads you to GAMA Moda Plaza. Alternatively you can go to Arriola station. -La cultura station: La Rambla shopping mall is located in front of the station. -Angamos station: the Real plaza Primavera is adjacent to the station. -Atocongo station: Mall del sur is just at a walking distance from the station. So you have 6 out of the 26 stations with a shopping mall nearby.
Something that seems to be ignored is that corporate greed contributes to malls closing. Leaseholders raise the rent on a space to unsustainable levels for the average small business, and corporate stores refuse to see their profits decrease as a result of a higher lease payment, so the stalemate leads to stores closing. In my area, Benderson Development seems to own every commercial building in existence. The number of empty buildings tells me they'd rather have them sit empty than charge reasonable lease rates. Whether people like chain stores or not, they do have their place, but their need for more more more helps nobody. Obviously, online shopping has had an impact, but if large retail stores would price fairly without gouging the consumer, more people may be inclined to shop there.
The now demolished mall I used to go to years ago was bought out by Simon who then proceeded to jack everyone's rent through the roof. This forced out someone I knew who operated several kiosks and some of the other smaller, niche retailers and food operators, which left the mall filled with generic chain stores and many empty stores. I have no idea why they did that because it ended up losing them a ton of money, and led to it's closure.
I live in Puerto Rico, a colony of the United States. We have the biggest mall in the whole Caribbean. Plaza Las Americas is a gorgeous mall and that place won't die. The Macy's store is always jammed packed. Zennial mall rats are a thing. Then there are malls that started reusing spaces. So instead of just stores, we have go carts, doctor's offices, art galleries, art expos, artisan fairs, government offices (smaller branches so the big ones don't get filled), and even spaces where people rent out for dancing classes and all other sorts os services to the community.
There’s a weird strip mall near me (idk if that term applies here exactly, there’s two big stores on each end and between them is stores only accessible from the interior). Anyway, I don’t think there’s much going on in there other than a large dim sum restaurant and a small children’s store, but there’s also a DMV location which seems like a good use for that space.
Good to know that there's one Macy's that's doing well. I think the word "gorgeous" is key. If it gives you a positive feeling just being there, a mall is a destination in and of itself and you have a reason to go there on top of or even instead of just shopping.
@@mixolydia3309 I think what you describe is just a regular mall. Strip malls have stores accessed by a footpath between the parking lot and the stores.
2:34 I think this is the most important part people blame the pandemic and online shopping, yet the richer you are the more of your shopping you do online. Yet malla for the rich are thriving. Online retail and covid obviously had an effect. But what we are actually seeing is the cost of living crisis that is why the people who gained the most over the last few years have malls that are thriving and the ones that lost the most are d ying. It shows the true importance of inequality in our society.
Online retail is where the rich spend their money. Malls are where they spend their physical time (and occasionally money). Like a lot of other things in our unequal modern society, things and experiences for the rich are being built while things for everyone else are dying out.
Weirdly enough in my country more online retails/stores opening stores at the mall bc there will be a demand for people who are lazy to browse online or they want to see the quality of the products they're selling
Exactly. What we're seeing is that the bourgeousie is thriving as usual, pretending that the world is still like it was when they were young, while the working class is, well, working.
To some extent it depends on the item but especially if a texture is involved or sizing (which isn't universal) then in store is better to try things on but then unfortunately online stores always have more space. The upside is any store that can order what you need easily if they don't have it on hand and send it to them or for free send it to your home.
really depends. sometimes i'll go to a store to try something on if it's a new brand i'm not familiar with. if it's a brand I've bought from before and know their sizing, it's so much easier to buy online
Inherently more expensive but that's part of the cost. Getting things immediately and the general social setting are a benefit in the increasingly isolated world
From my experience, mall that are connected to a transit system, especially with a metro system, tend to have more customers than car-centric malls. Using these malls as an example, Pacific Centre, Brentwood, and Metrotown located in British Columbia, Canada all are connected to the SkyTrain, same as Eaton Centre and Yorkdale are with the TTC subway in Ontario. And these malls are always busy with a good chunk of patrons arriving via transit. Whereas, a mall like Westfield Southcenter near Seattle, WA, United States, is relatively quiet. Sure, it may be unfair to compared more urban malls like Metrotown and Eaton Centre that has dense development nearby to a more suburban one like Westfield Southcenter, but from my observations, having rapid transit connections, namely a metro system, tends to help a mall out. By having accessible transit, a mall allows people who cannot/might choose not to drive to have access to the amenities that the mall has to offer as kids, teenagers, seniors, etc can access the mall without having to drive/be driven there. But that's my observations, as from my perspective, malls connected to a metro system seem to have more customers than fully car-centric ones.
Also, the USA was far more over built with malls than Canada. We moved from Toronto to Philadelphia in 1970. At the time there was only one large mall in all of metro Toronto, Yorkdale Mall. In metro Philly there were several large malls, some just a few miles apart. They are similar size cities. I currently live 50 miles outside of Los Angeles, and we have one large mall surrounded by parking lots, and its thriving. You know why? It is the only mall within 30 miles.
It's location and circumstance dependent. The Baltimore area had a mall constructed at the end of its subway. It was the first to die and turn into a big box center.
@@racool911 This comment is in reference to literally every other city in America. There are a few major historical cities like New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, etc., that are indeed walkable with good transit. New cities, and the suburbs even around the historical ones, do not have this same quality. The majority of Americans live in car dependent sprawl with very little real work done to address the issue anywhere
King of Prussia Mall, near where I am from, has all the “tiers” markets for people of all income levels to shop at. Hence, that is why it is one of the more resilient malls.
Mall of Millenia in metro Orlando FL went the wrong way; 2000s. It opened around 2002 but had a slow, low profit start. The mall property nearly closed around 2004, 2005. Over time; the merchants-retail started to appeal to wealthy patrons, rich tourists. Which was smart. Mall of Millenia became popular, made 💰💰💰.
The office I used to work in was 5 minutes from there and I would go there a lot on my lunch break. That place was huge and had pretty much everything, so it's no wonder it's thriving now.
Malls being seen as anti-urbanist is really strange to me. Malls are just a high density pedestrian only space filled with numerous businesses. Strap on a transit station, replace the parking lots with mixed use developments, encourage use by non-retail businesses, and maybe add some housing onto the mall itself and you have everything we ever talk about wanting from cities.
One of the things hurting Malls is also hurting America. My Local Mall and other have basically banned teenagers from visiting the mall. Sure they may not have been big spenders, but our society is building less and less spaces for kids and teens to hang out with their peers outside of schools. Watch any old sitcom and the Mall was a major teen hangout, sometimes they would shop, but at the very least they would be buying food. Teens need to have a safe place to associate with their peers outside of schools and the mall was a good option for many as it was indoors, had security and other around, and parents knew where their child was, but still gave the teens a place to be themselves without parents always watching them.
This is because of changing demographics. Banning "teens" in many urban settings means that you are banning the people who are committing a large portion of armed homicide and armed robbery as well as large fights and brawls. Blame the bad "teens" for this
@@johnjohnsonian4738 probably in the US. In most Asian cities, it's the teens that are fueling the consumerism. Some are even building schools right next to malls.
back when i was in HS there were 2 options after school, f around the shopping centre and have fun or go down to the local creek (very bushy) and participate in inhaling some fumes your parents wouldn't approve of haha. Banning teens from public spaces seems like a great way to fuel teen addiction
Malls in North America basically fill the role, a pedestrianized city center has in Europe. And in fact we see the same problem here: Since covid a lot is those chain-stores are closing - either because the while chain died or because they reduce the number of stores, while concentrating on online shopping. So maybe it's not the mall itself, what is dying, but the individual stores. And reusing that obsolete space for housing (which then almost guarantees customers for the remaining mall) is probably a good idea.
Bingo... Safe-ish third spaces that are neither home nor work or school. While the retailers themselves are being eaten alive by internet retail, the need for the spaces to go have never been higher hence the foot traffic numbers despite the crash in sales per square foot... Good to know the spirit of mall culture will probably outlive its economics... I know I only visit my local mall when I need to get groceries, fill a prescription or eat cheap Japanese food... Otherwise? I don't need to really shop anywhere in the traditional/physical space besides maybe a dispensary... And even that can be done online here legally...
I live right next to The Grove in LA. It's an open air mall with both chainstores as well as pop-ups and boutiques. Right next to it is the Farmers Market. It fits a weird niche between a tourist destination as well as a place for locals to hang out. I think its exactly the type of mall that will always remain relevant.
In 80s-90s they really built malls everywhere. It was inevitable that some if not most would close. I don't think they will disappear, they are too useful of a space, but we definitely had too many of them.
The best ideas for repurposing dead/dying malls I've come up with is conversion to food halls and entertainment with groceries chains as anchors instead of department stores. And some malls are perfect for conversion to expo/conference centers with hotels and possibly a smaller food hall to anchor them. I live in New Hampshire and the plan to demolish the steeplegate mall is horrendous, if they converted the sears to a 4-5 restaurant food hall, and partnered with a hotel chain build a decent size hotel and attached it to the mall building, they could convert the empty retail into conference rooms, and build the condos they want on the opposite side and it would be a lot better than knocking down the entire thing and replacing it with junk retail, luxury condos, and twice as much parking lot. It's a shame developers have such a lack of vision for what to do with the properties they acquire
High end shopping malls in large highly concentrated urban areas outside of the USA are thriving because of their centralized location and access to rapid transit like subways and light rail.
Top malls are absolutely thriving - I work for a large retail company that owns multiple brands and while the “bad” malls took longer to die than expected, the dominant super regional A-grade centers are still booming and a source for sales growth
I recently moved to an area that has a thriving mall and I feel like I've been transported back to the 80's and 90's when I go there. It is always packed, has almost no closed stores, and has a lot to do. I went there on a Saturday 2 weeks before Christmas and it was so packed I could barely move. I almost cried because it reminded me of my mall rat days growing up in the 90's.
@@hiflyer000There are of course going to be malls that thrive as not all malls are dying. It definitely depends on the area. In our area, we only have one major mall that has a big arcade, play area for kids, a big food court,etc… Basically, malls need to adapt in order to survive and not just have retail stores only. They need entertainment and many other kinds of stores to attract people to come.
What infuriates me is that undeveloped land is ruined for new retail spaces all the time when there are plenty of underutilized mall parking lots that can/should be redeveloped.
I’m not super big on “mall shopping” but I still love the modicum of walking around a mall to browse around or do other stuff like grabbing a bite, going somewhere for an arcade or movie, or just wandering. I don’t think malls as a US staple would completely die out since my area still has malls that are hanging on but still have other amenities like newer restaurants, or other things like arcades, which help make them worth visiting for more than just shopping.
That is so true which is why many malls are adding more restaurants, movie theaters, arcades and other forms of entertainment instead of just shopping only. I noticed that with the only big mall in my area. They have a big arcade with a karaoke bar, many places to eat and some areas for kids to play too. Malls need to adapt and offer more than just shopping in order to survive.
I think shopping malls have to evolve beyond just an endless array of clothing stores. There should be wineries, restaurants and after hour bars where ppl can drink, places where kids have things to keep them occupied, maybe a place where they make great beer battered corn dogs and pretzels. Some malls have churches and doctors offices mixed with shopping, food, and apartments. Put a variety of things in that people like and they’ll come
I grew up in King of Prussia, and any mall historian will tell you that the Kind of Prussia Mall was one of the earliest big malls in the country - it was the largest mall in the US until the Mall of America opened. As a teen, I appreciated it because it was a place to go for food and entertainment. The mall has changed significantly, it's more than doubled in size and has attracted many high-end luxury stores; it's definitely considered a "top-tier mall". Meanwhile, I've changed significantly as well and the ostentatious consumerism is pretty off-putting. I'm also disappointed by the architectural sameness of all the malls. If you blindfolded someone and dropped them in the middle of most malls, they'd have zero contextual clues to indicate where they were. At least the casinos in Las Vegas, as overblown as they are, have a well-defined style and theme so that there's not a sad, boring sameness...
In San Diego we have two malls within a few miles. One is near death, and the other is Top Tier and full all the time. Mission Valley Mall vs Fashion Valley Mall
When you have 2-3 big malls close by, they compete to survive. In our area, we only have one big mall so they don’t need to compete with anyone. They have a big arcade, a place or kids to play and many restaurants to eat besides just shopping stores.
Two malls near me tried that it it ended up being pretty disastrous. That could be because they decided to be "luxury" apartments and charge 2 arms and a leg for rent, or it could be that people in the US don't really want to live that lifestyle.
Malls are only dieing inside the US, outside of the US more are being built every yr. Its not online shopping causing this. Its actually the mall owners charging both rent and profit sharing, as smaller business move out, this creates a domino effect on shoppers and the larger businesses. Back in the 80's malls were ' Third Places ' for many.
In the Philippines, Malls have replaced Parks as a third place due to urbanization. Literally have masses on sundays too on some malls and areas in it while having department stores, clinics, shops, restaurants, travel agencies, hardware stores, bookstores innit
What’s actually happening is that there are just too many malls in the US. They all have exactly the same stores and they end up competing against each other. If you watch Salvatore Amadeo’s ExLog series, one of the things that comes up again and again is that these malls started dying like 20 years ago when a nicer, newer mall opened up nearby and took away lots of their business,
I think a lot of the malls are just dying because they are just completely inconvenient to get to, period. Here in Sacramento, California, at least both Arden Fair and Roseville Galleria haven't completely collapsed because they are easily accessible due to being right next to a major freeway interchange. San Jose's Valley Fair is not only next to a freeway but easily accessible by Santa Clara VTA's excellent bus system.
Here in Norway, many malls are essentially parts of downtown developments, filling up a city block or two right by the main square, by the train station, or elsewhere with room for a big building. Most of them are located next to a downtown throughfare, however, and contain a rather large parking structure in the back. But as a general rule, they are quite accessible on foot too, and well integrated in the urban fabric. Then again, we also have plenty of the US-style malls at the outskirts of town, surrounded by parking lots and difficult to reach or traverse on foot. I think their construction has been banned in recent years, however.
That is super good that Norway banned suburban stroad based malls! This kind of development only stirs urban sprawl. Proper malls should be built in busy metropolitan areas to allow those access to transit and other means of mobility after shopping.
Not all malls are created equal. I think there's also an important distinction to be made between urban and suburban malls. While urban malls also come with their own set of problems (a retail and foot traffic sink that can suck some of the streetlife out of the surrounding area if the population density isn't high enough), they're generally far better than their suburban cousins. No massive parking lots, more verticality, better integration with office and residential space, etc etc.
What would be the difference between an urban and a suburban mall? I’m from NYC which has many different shopping districts, blocks of local shops in residential neighborhoods, and a mix of small and large malls depending on what borough you’re in. There are suburban malls out in Long Island that people with cars drive out to.
@@MONET8iAM Like I said above, they tend to have a much smaller footprint (no surface parking, built up not out, often better integration with office and residential space, often just smaller in the first place). Suburban malls tend to be sprawling, one or two stories (exceptions here, but they're... exceptions) and be surrounded by a sea of surface parking because you have to drive to get to them. Urban malls are generally less destructive and tend to be healthier if they're built in high density areas (NYC being a great example of that, and there are a ton of urban malls in other high density cities like Tokyo).
Is a yearly income of 99,000 dollars considered low income? Since when does the mid income category start at 100k? Is this supposed to be Australian or NZ Dollars or did I miss anything?
Metropolis mall in Burnaby, BC, Canada is the largest and busiest mall in the region. It's next to the regions 2nd busiest metro station, and the mall is currently being doubled-down on with long-term redevelopment by adding over a dozen towers on to it while concurrently giving the mall itself a refresh. An extremely busy bus exchange will be integrated in to it (as it already is) as well as a sizeable theatre/event space
"Build it and they will come" Prior to SkyTrain (yes, I'm that old...) the Metrotown area was out in the middle of nowhere. Now it's a destination in its own right.
Mall of America also has a transit center in what was a parking bay. The tram takes you to the airport and then to Minneapolis. There's also many bus lines.
I think suburban malls were overbuilt in the 80s and 90s, but in the 2000s and 2010s the malls that had money reinvested in making themselves a nicer destination experiences, while the malls that didn't so that lost their shoppers to online retail and the nicer malls.
Mall of America is definitely the future of traditional shopping malls imo. But smaller suburban malls could be transformed into a hub for local stores and restaurants which would be cool
Same with WEM here in Edmonton. The mall as spectacle will never really go away. These mega malls have become "the medium is the message" type event spaces where going to "THE MALL" is like visiting Disneyland for people in MSP or YEG... Complete with mini amusements too! And yes even NYC with American Dream/Xanadu and perhaps even one day in Miami if the Ghermezians can ever get the financing to get its 4th mega-mall built...
Tbh I feel like the moa is shifting more towards being a resort then a shopping center (very slowly). They already have hotels built in and are planning to add a Waterpark, another parking structure and then another hotel. Also not many local shops in the moa. Love the aquarium and transit center tho.
I happened to be at Del Amo Mall here in Torrance yesterday. It was, at one time, the largest mall in the U.S. These days it features a high end wing and a dying, low income wing. As I wandered around the sad sack wing, I was pleasantly startled to hear Sonic Youth being piped through the sound system! Pretty rad!
In Nashville, Vanderbilt Health redeveloped an old mall into a giant med/health center. Super efficient to see your doctor and then walk across the "corridor" to get labs done, go see a specialist a few steps away, and why not get colonoscopy while you are hanging-out (ha). They even kept some elements of the food court too (need to grab a cinnabon after the colonoscopy). All joking aside, good redevelopment idea.
Shopping malls are like a nice, highly walkable urban neighborhood, but one in which a hundred times as many potential customers can conveniently access it, and they are much easier to stock and staff. Also they don't have rain.
I went back to Arden Fair in Sacramento for the first time in 10+ years and it was 90% jewelry stores. Strange to see from what I remember in my childhood.
As a european, one of the things that shocked me about malls in the U.S was the fact that there usually weren't big supermarkeds like Target and Walmart in them. Have ben to both Mall of America and King of Prussia mall.
Online shopping will never replace the instant look or try-on experience. Higher income customers love this and can afford the regular prices (with some discounts). However customers for lower income malls would likely shop online or other discount stores, rather than pay full price in person.
I've often read people complaining about the very cheap cost of items(and the fact they aren't very reliable and horrible quality), off of certain sites like Temu. Does gives me hope that people will lose interest in ultra cheap sites like that, and I hope that malls hang on myself. Since to me I like being able to try clothes on, myself.
Malls are a really efficient use of space and save consumer's time when done right. So much of our infastructure is so spread out that its hard to visit multiple stores without multiple stressful drives in high traffic in our car dependant cities. Sometimes its even impossible to think of if the climate in your area is snowy or searing hot. Malls thrive in places where thats the case. Malls should embrace that and look at themselves as centers of traffic. The malls where i live have USPS offices, walgreens pharmacies, electronics stores and daycare centers. You could live in it if they had apartments inside. And that mall is doing better than most. I hope malls devellop into what they were always meant to be. A suburban megabuilding where you can get anything at your convenience.
Eastridge Mall was a big deal in San Jose in the 70's. It wasn't the first mall in San Jose, but was an early one and by far the largest. We would go there once a year for Xmas shopping. We would all split up and our shopping, then meet at the food court for lunch. It was a fun trip to look forward to.
When Eastern Europeans visited America after the Iron Curtain came down, they saw the malls and loved them. They loved them so much that they put them in prime locations. These European malls are doing really well. Meanwhile, the American malls in the middle of nowhere are shutting down.
my australian town built a shopping centre, which killed the main street shopping, then they built another shopping centre for god knows why (genuiley don't know what they were thinking of building another shopping centre in a small town, we can barely support the first one) which ofcourse has now killed the original shopping centre. So my town has a building where all the shops are, an abandoned main street and a shopping centre where 90% of it has been closed down. It's quite hard to sell the town now as an attractive place to set up shop here when half the town has lost it's shopping in 10 years. there are too many shopping malls. Many are gonna shut,
Shopping malls are not "great places." Walkable, mixed-use, and transit-oriented districts and neighborhoods are great places. Mid-block pedestrian passages that are enclosed may be woven into such districts and neighborhoods, but these elements avoid the design flaws of the shopping mall.
It's interesting. In my native Spain, in my hometown, a small-ish 120 thousand town, a mall that opened up there around the mid-90s and caused MASSIVE amounts of damage to local businesses, has evolved too. There used to be a decent multi-screen cinema, it shut down, then a bigger one opened up in an extension on the roof several years later. You don't find that many people buying, but there's always someone, because most big brand stores are there. It's a good thing, because it means that if you want something different, you can open up a shop in the middle of town, instead of this mall (which is in downtown proper, but at the edge), and also some smaller fashion shops have opened business there because people not finding what they want at H&M or Zara or GAP or similar places will go to those smaller (and, let's be realistic, BETTER) shops. Where I'm now, in Japan, it's different. Malls have never gone away or waned in popularity. In the 20 plus years I've lived here, I've seen in this area (this is NOT Tokyo, the capital might as well be a completely different country, believe me; this is a big urban area, but not the capital), I can recall, in the last 20 years, 6 or 7 malls (not as large as American ones, but big) being opened in the overall megalopolis here, a bunch of outlet malls, and a set of 3 smaller malls being consolidated into one and being reborn and rebranded. What you have seen here is larger, older malls shut down or rebrand themselves because their customer base were older 50+ year old people, or, let's put it mildly, geriatric customers, and that's not the target audience you have to aim for if you want a long term prospect of growth, and because older people in Japan have money, if younger people wanted something more retro from there (it happens!), they could not buy it because it was beyond their budget. So, younger people have flocked to cheap-ass fashion and new, more flashy malls. Here in Japan, then, malls are doing GREAT and they have not suffered that much from online sales, in part because shopping online is not as prevalent here in Japan as it is in America, and in part because malls have had like a 90% of their surface devoted to fashion shops, and people STILL want to be able to try the clothes they buy. Personally, and anecdotally, I tried the whole "buy online" for clothes, and nope, even if you know your size, different manufacturers interpret size in different ways and it's tough to find clothes you can confidently buy online without trying them first.
Even if a mall doesnt have a good reuse case, its parking lot certainly would. Massive open area with excellent road access? Perfect spot for something better
Outdoor malls with mixed use development have better ROI, and it's cheaper to demolish an old mall and build a new one from scratch than it is to renovate. So while a site might not have enough shopping traffic to sustain a single-use indoor mall, it might have enough to make an outdoor mixed use mall profitable
Of I could buy mall property, I would definitely make sure housing is part of the mix. It’s like an easy decision. You basically create a place where people can easily walk to and shop. Add a park and a great highschool and it’s a wrap! A mini-walkable and bikeable city that you can still drive to and shop at with a somewhat captive audience and serves the greater area as well. I’m surprised more people aren’t doing this. It’s a great mixed use play.
In my home town of Munich (Germany), most malls are doing great. Why? Because they are in densely populated areas and are easily accessible by public transport, with most of them having direct connection to a subway station, as well as several bus and/or tram lines.
On a recent visit to Bangkok I saw that the malls there are also thriving - and as in Munich, they are located in busy areas, close to/connected with public transit, and, in addition, many are upper end. An additional factor in the case of Bangkok: the climate. The malls are all air conditioned, making them a great place to go to escape the heat.
An evolution of Malls to help counter the death of 3rd place to give people a place to hang out could be quite useful. Ideally we'd also add housing within walkable distances.
Malls are a place teens can gather and socialize, in person. There are also many malls with senior walking and other non commercial activities that mimic the classic "community center". Malls are also great places for seasonal storefronts to go to. Its a separate discussion if one use throw away seasonal stores should be catered to. Our local mall has many bus lines and serves as a transfer station. It has a dozen or so sit down restaurants and if they ever figure out light rail will double as an intermodal transport center. In sum a destination mall is more than the sum of its parts.
Teens? 2024? Ummmm I can cite crimes, gangs, human trafficking, serious problems. Rich malls, poor malls. Big malls, small malls. It does not matter. PS- I do security, Orlando Florida, since 2000. Armed & unarmed posts 👮🏽♂️.
I liked malls in the 20th century. They used to have a variety of stores that brought me in. First, it was the arcades and toy stores, then the book stores, music stores, some even had comic book stores, some had pet stores. Now, it just seems like a bunch of shitty clothes stores. But hey, many of them have a Spencer's. That is worth a few minutes, I guess.
I live in Taiwan. In Asia, including Taiwan, Japan, Thailand, Hong Kong and China, shopping malls (departments) in many cities will be located in or near stations. Not only subway stations, some railway stations and high-speed rail stations will also have shopping malls attached. ; Then in the suburbs, there are also shopping malls with a large number of parking lots. However, suburban shopping malls are usually only crowded during holidays. Shopping malls in cities have always been prosperous due to the passenger flow from stations.
Shopping malls that cater exclusively to car-addicted suburbanites and criminalise using the mall as a hangout spot are dying, while properly run malls aren't.
The size of the mall is also a big factor in its adaptability. I lived in a rural college town of 50K with a small suburban mall that was like one long hallway with one major anchor store at the end and no real food court. Just had a few local restaurants with interior entrances and a pretzel shop. The rest of the connected buildings were just large strip mall stores (Michaels, Ulta) and a large supermarket that attracted more traffic. Also the outdoor strip mall storefronts were connected by a short sidewalk to enter the indoor mall. It has never really been dead thanks to this layout. It has only gotten busier since a new Target took over the dead end anchor store.
There is a mall with a similar setup near my town, however it’s never crowded despite the size. It feels like people are scattered around, and mostly at the attached stores/restaurants, and the movie theater. The mall Santa looked so bored and lonely this past holiday, I was shocked that they still do holiday photos there.
@@MONET8iAM Damn that sounds rough for Santa. Mine had decent foot traffic, especially in colder winter months. But it never really felt packed. I don't even think mine had a mall Santa. Just a car giveaway at one point.
@@pleasedontwatchthese9593 and post pandemic, most people subconsiously realised how important social interaction is and more people are spending more time in third spaces and in alot of cities, malls are one of the only third places you have really. I know many people who would go to the shopping centre to just hang around, grab a feed and socialise instead of the quick in-n-out we used to do pre-pandemic
While growing up, the mall in my town had 20-30 stores, a few places to eat, vendors, an arcade, and a movie theater later converted to a laser tag arena. I've been told it is still open with three local stores and an always-empty parking lot.
Most malls that actually die do so either because a newer mall was built close by or because the local population declined enough to no longer support it. I think that malls are the only thing that satisfy the "third place" for a lot of people, and they don't want to see that disappear.
I personally believe accessibility is the biggest factor to the failure or success of malls, at least around where I live. My 2 favorite malls both have easy highway access and have residential areas within walking distance. One even has a whole bus terminal directly next to it, but sadly, it's a horrible walk with barley a sidewalk to and from the mall itself. I really want just one of those malls to widen their sidewalks and actually make a path from apartments to the mall without needing to walk through the parking lot, just one side walk, one path is all I want.
I’ve been to that mall several times. It’s not bad, even in winter. The issue is that it’s all upscale (it’s anchored by Apple, Macys, and LL Bean) and the walkable area also has some vehicle parking that can be tight at times.
I, for one, like to see the fountains and plants. Instead we see people bundled up and moving quickly from one area to spend money to the next. The new model doesn’t really promote community space or organic gatherings whatsoever in the winter. It also means many more store fronts and exterior glass facades with higher expense glazing. The lack of interior partitions tremendous reduces energy efficiency. Beyond this, the salt and additional plow maintenance means more stores have to deal with people tracking in snow and dirt. These are just the more obvious shortcomings.
Towson town center near me is kinda of weird, It seems high end with an Apple Store and high end clothing stores. But also elements of a low tier mall with lots of local stuff that is targeted to the mostly Black population of Baltimore across the border.
That Santa Maria mall was hilariously sports oriented during my high school years. There werent many stores, but there was a lot of sports centers like batting cages, a skate park, and more.
If you want a good example of this case, take a look at the Philippines. It's completely the opposite case with what's going on in North America. Shopping malls in the Philippines are thriving and expanding aggressively whereas US malls are on the steady decline even with some of them being repurpose. Although online shopping exists there, it's very minimal compare to what we have here in the US. Delivering online goods there is a nightmare, delivery folks would be spending more time looking for the actual residential place than actually getting to the address of the recipient. But that's just only one of the many reasons why malls there are thriving. It's a very interesting case to look at.
One of the worst things about old-school malls were that all the chain stores were exactly the same in every mall. If you get a bunch of local stores in there instead it becomes a lot more interesting.
Local stores can't afford the rent in malls. It's why only big name chains who could afford it were there. Local governments would have to subsidize local businesses for them to compete but that requires a local government that could actually plan to do that correctly lol
I find that to be the case in small dieing malls. A lot of small stores. I think it's neat but really hit or miss.
That really isn't an issue though if you mostly stick to a single mall for your shopping. What does it matter if every mall has a Hot Topic? All that matters is that _your_ mall has a Hot Topic.
Couldn't agree more and they were all selling the same old junk
That was kind of a feature (for the companies in malls), actually. When they're all kind of the same, you can just go to whichever is closer to you and you know pretty much what you're going to get. It means that when someone moves from one city to another, Walmart and Sears and Bed Bath & Beyond and Hot Topic don't lose a customer.
Japan is literally every major train station is a shopping mall, just need to make it an actual destination. You go to the top floor to eat out, you go for entertainment you go for everything else.
You also see this in the EU where many train stations are also malls or at least decent shopping areas. One of the things I love is when I come back from an international trip I can stop at a grocery store in the train station on my way home and pick up some fresh groceries.
I have heard that overall malls are doing fine in most of the EU because they are not car centric hellscapes and instead they are part of the cities and transit systems.
In Philippines. At least where I live it doubles as a jeepney and bus stations.
Some floors could be residential too. In the US there are a lot of places with too few affordable homes, so even small apartments would have a big impact. With just a safe place to sleep and get cleaned up, someone could get started on building a better life.
They have one of those in New York focused on getting people from one place to the other with easy access to exits, the thieves have bankrupted the entire brand new billion-dollar Westfield Mall / Subway station. Grab as much as you can carry and there's a train and abundant exits to escape quickly without consequence bankrupting every store in the building.
The Japanese have a different sense of morality than we do. Respect and all that good stuff rather than unlimited freedom to do what you can get away with if it's easy to escape without consequences.
@@Immudzenthe Westfield Mall in New York City is a great place to still everything from every store and escaped quickly on the subway line call my emptying and going bankrupt call my the new billion dollar Station Mall is a disaster in its planning and implementation, deteriorating it looks just like any other subway station down below.
As someone who's lived near the Mall of America my whole life, I deeply believe walking around without a plan is a great leisure activity and more malls need to embrace adding more things to Do inside other than shop. Make a whole day of it.
We should make the whole place we live nice instead of needing to drive to a building to simulate how nice it is
@pleasedontwatchthese9593 Perhaps. Malls are fully indoors though, that's a major aspect of their appeal.
@@jijitters if you added more than shopping to a mall you could consider it a small arcology. An arcology is like a building you can live in and do everything in it.
A walkable city in a box
As someone living in the Twin Cities-y’all are weird and I’m convinced the only reason y’all have a mall this huge is because no one wants to be outside in the winter-something that can’t be said about most other parts of the country
Online shopping isn’t everything. I bought something off Amazon recently that turned out to be a piece of crap. The ability to go to an actual store and see the product can be a huge advantage over getting something online and hoping for the best.
Also, for many people they can have the product instantly instead of having to wait hours or days for it. And trying on clothes means not having to return items as often.
How did you now know it was gonna be a piece of crap? You literall bought it off of Amazon, i.e. American Temu.
I prefer to look at touch the item before I can purchase it. That’s why i prefer to in store shopping over Amazon.
@@cupriferouscatalyst3708It’s not like other online stores do better when it comes to quality products tbh. It’s an issue with not being able to try something out before you buy it.
I agree I rarely ever buy online. I have ordered things that never came. I have had to pay to return something that was wrong. There are plenty of downsides to it.
Here in Australia many malls have a public library, doctors, dentist, grocer, bakery, all the basic stuff. Clothing stores come and go, but I think if a mall has the basics it always have a reason to exist.
I saw another video that said in Europe one of the anchors of surviving malls is a supermarket. I remember an eye doctor was one of the (8?) shops in the indoor mini-mall attached to a grocery store where I grew up.
Cinemas, restaurants, bowling, gym, entertainment, restaurants, offices, supermarkets & department stores
@@sandal_thong8631Eye doctors can often be found in the mall, attached to a glasses retailer such as LensCrafters or Pearle Vision Center. It's an adjunct of the store...
Malls traditionally didn't have stuff like grocery stores in the US, but they've started to become more common. I've been in multiple malls that have adapted a former anchor store space into a Target, which usually has a grocery section in new stores. On the other hand, I've never seen any Walmarts in a mall - Walmart seems to be attached to building their stores, which Target is more willing to reuse existing space.
They have that in the USA as well..
Some malls do have Walmart & Target, grocery store and county services. Malls also have hotels, train stations etc.. Not all mall are just Macys and 100 typical mall stores.
Malls are just covered pedestrian arcades that have existed for centuries. The interior is genuinely top tier urbanism. Just do it like Canada: give them a role as a transit hub (and turn the parking lots into high rises apartments with some offices).
Having especially rapid transit (metro train) connections to a mall really makes going to the mall easy and stress free. 🚈
Two malls right in the middle of town here are doing exactly that. Both of them got a subway station in the late 00s, and the huge 70s-era parkinglot of one of them has always been a sore in the middle of what is otherwise a pretty neat area of density, but is being redeveloped now. It'll take a while, but by my estimate the project is going to pretty much double the amount of highrises in the city!
The comical thing is that people who won't go to a shop on a street if they can't park their car within a few feet of it will happily walk across half a mile of car park and then walk for miles round the mall without thinking twice about it.
Japan does the same thing at least once. A Minatomirai Line station is built at the bottom level of a mall, if I remember.
@@stevieinselby The interiors of malls are generally protected from the elements. Nobody really wants to walk the streets when it is too hot or too cold or raining.
Imo malls in the USA are dying because of non walkable city planing. In Poland, many malls are close to trams/metro and close to center or apartaments. And there are more and more of them.
I don't think that European's understand how large the United States is. Most European countries are smaller than a single US state. There is a reason why car culture is dominant here.
@@perceivedvelocity9914That only matters for city to city travel.
@@perceivedvelocity9914 New York metro area has a population of +20M with a density of +5000/sq mi.
Most people live in urban areas.
Cities don’t need to be built for cars.
@@perceivedvelocity9914there's a reason we don't really consider the US a "country" as much as we view it as a continent-sized crumbling experiment in hypercolonialism.
@@perceivedvelocity9914 Amazing how the US was mostly settled (and crossed with trains) before cars existed. Somehow we coped.
The health system my wife works for purchased a shuttered Sears location in the mall and renovated it and converted it into patient offices. This allowed several different specialties to be under one roof. It just opened a few months ago and they are currently renovating the Sears auto location to more patient offices. This is incredibly powerful for their patients. Before their offices were spread out into many different patient offices, now most of them are under one roof. This is also better for patients that allows them to take public transport to the mall. There were no public transports to most of the patients offices before. So this is a win/win for the health system and its patients.
tbh making even a closed down mall a community center is always a good move, we had a mall close down over here for like more than 10 yrs now and its all just been empty space that could've been used/transitioned into something beneficial to the area's residents
it's pretty common here in Europe to have some medical services in a mall, usually on the higher end like cosmetology, esthetic dentistry, etc. but it's nice that people have access to these services in a place they would visit anyway for some shopping and running errands.
I know exactly which mall you are talking about. This is the Moorestown Mall which will now have outpatient services by Cooper University Hospital.
the key? free air-conditioning, bathroom, wifi and security
Nursing room also helps!
One of my local malls has non of those things. Rip
From the Philippines here.
You also need to add more: transport terminals, daycare centers, food courts, even entire churches.
Good points! In my city, though, the malls can be dangerous, with shootings and bomb threats.
And no homeless people outside of every store like in the inner cities.
We don't need to leave the era of shopping malls behind. There is a place for lots of physical retail all in one place. But the inside of a quarter-mile wide parking moat is not that place.
Yeah I’d rather go to a bustling mixed- use downtown area than a standalone mall
Indeed malls have too much parking. That parking was only ever used one day a year, on black Friday. Though some of the parking is result of zoning regulations that require a minimum number of slots. Some of the parking would be better put to use as affordable housing. Mall employees generally don't make a lot of money. But if they lived at the mall then they wouldn't need a car or could live car light.
@@Novusod Where I live in Massachusetts those parking lots come in handy. They are usually close to full most of the time.They are a small price to pay for the huge connivence. lol
@CrAzYnAdEz "they are a small price to pay for such a huge convenience" tells me everything I need to know about you lol. You don't even know the cost so why open your mouth to invite the near certainty of being wrong
Yep, the strip mall in my town literally covers 20% more land area and yet still somehow manages to pull in less total taxes due to the fact that about 75-66% of said extra space was literally just the parking lots. It's over double the amount per square foot. But I'm sure best buy and Michael's really appreciates being given such important real estate to pave over so they're just 1min closer for all those who are driving!!
Here in Arlington, the Pentagon City Mall is thriving, probably because it has almost relatively little parking, lots of traffic from tour busses stopping at the food court for lunch, and a direct connection to the Metro.
I live in Richmond, and I end up taking the Amtrak to Alexandria and catching the metro from there to Pentagon City. It is a whole lot easier than driving up there.
I haven't been there since maybe 1999. It was a very nice place. Higher end malls usually do fairly well.
That’s one of the greatest malls in America.
Not to mention it has a hot topic lol
My ex used to work there when I was stationed at Quantico. I’d have lunch with her there whenever I was working at the Pentagon, for the the day. Was always a pleasant ambiance.
Growing up as a 90s kid, malls were everything to my friend group. There was one a 10 minute walk from our high school, and we'd spend several afternoons a week there just hanging out. It was a safe, clean, stress-free and reliable place for us to be able to just exist without having to spend money for access, which is something kids these days seem hard-pressed to find. I hope malls continue to evolve and can continue to be a healthy "third place" option for years to come.
Malls aren't dying; "mall culture" is dying. I used to hang out at the mall all day with my friends, maybe seeing a movie but also just hanging out. That doesn't seem to happen anymore, and I think that's why malls seem so lifeless these days. Turns out loitering was good for businesses after all lol!
I totally agree and miss those days a lot. Online is just not the same.
And a lot of of the reasons Mall Culture is gone It's because of the rise of loitering laws and other legal and extralegal means of Punishing being a child/teenager in public.
When everything you do get you in trouble with the cops, The only natural response is to retreat To the safety of your own home.
I live in Lyon, France and we have the biggest mall in France in the heart of downtown. The Westfield Part-Dieu is HUGE and always super busy. They’ve been doubling its size since the 2010s as part of a revitalization and pedestrianization process of downtown, including a new skyscraper, the complete renovation of the main train station etc. It was shocking to see how dead the malls were when I went to the US.
Mall culture is still popular in Asia.
Any malls in Canada that serve large numbers of people originally from Asia are doing well. In my town almost everyone in the mall is an immigrant from India.
filipino here, yeah malls are still crazy popular here
@@polygon_dust this is because most malls either are directly connected to the commuter railway stations, have their own transport terminals, or even both. Some even have offices and apartments built on top of them. All of these ensure a constant stream of foot traffic.
In my experience that is because streets are filthy in many Asian countries, at least malls are clean. With the exception of Singapore, that is just like a western country, might even be a bit cleaner on the streets.
@@buddy1155Singapore and also Japan are almost obsessed with having everything clean - maybe because it's often the exact opposite in other Asian countries and was there too previously?
If you compress the parking into a tower or move it underground, and build housing where the lots used to be, maybe with a bus or metro stop, i have no objection to malls. They can be the new downtown of this local community
Basically malls in the Asia-Pacific tend to be exactly like this.
If you attach apartments, the mall crime will skyrocket and no one esle will visit and the mall will die.
@@toomanymarys7355 Tell that to the in-door malls all over europe and asia. Personally i live in nieuwegein, an independent city that is effectively a suburb of the much larger Utrecht, the netherlands, and our city's downtown is a mall, with 5 stories of apartments on top. It's the busiest it's ever been. It helps that it's within walking distance for half the city, with excellent walking infrastructure to get to it. It is also a regional bus station hub, and several even smaller shopping locations spread out through the area so you can walk to a supermarket wherever you live.
@@toomanymarys7355 wrong. A lot of cities did exactly that, and so far, no increase in crime.
I don't get why the US and Canada is too paranoid to do the same.
@@toomanymarys7355what are you basing that assumption on?
my best friend just moved into a new apartment building that used to be a mall in the orange county, california! they're actually tearing down the whole mall eventually but the first phase was like half of the mall.
Same with many malls where I am
What mall in oc?
mainplace mall off the 5 freeway@@TC-tw5zk
Same with a dead/dying mall near me, also in OC, north end of Huntington Beach. The old mall concept, while popular for its time, does need to continue to evolve for today's shopping and social habits. Some will always be perennial favorites such as Fashion Island in Newport Beach and elsewhere.
Singapore is now also replacing 2 barely 10 year old small malls with condominiums, as the malls had struggled to attract customers, being located slightly further away from train stations than other bigger, newer malls (even though 1 of them had a skating rink & an IMAX cinema). 1 of the condominiums isn't cheap, with a 4-room apartment (~1000' ^2) selling for almost S$3 million (~US$2.3m) located in a satellite town ~15km (almost 10mi) from downtown
Good, because I love shopping malls, they're one of the few remaining social spaces left in this mostly digitized world.
We need more public spaces
@@Cyrus992 True
@@Cyrus992however true public spaces, not some owned by private corporations.
No parks where you live?
Exactly
I live in San Diego and since they installed a trolley system that connects to most of our malls I've never seen them so busy before. Surprisingly it seems the believed core automobile aspect is easily replaced with public transit. It's always nice to see how busy my local malls are whenever I go :)
Yet the Horton passed away due to its design
UTC is my favorite mall! The LRT station there is elevated but has footbridges to the mall, and right underneath is a huge bus terminal! Plus the mall was renovated just before the new LRT opened!
Even in east county, the malls get some traffic from the trolley, like the mall near Grossmont Station, Santee Trolley Center, and even Parkway Plaza in El Cajon. But yeah UTC and Fashion Valley get lots of foot traffic
@@Cyrus992 Is Horton completely dead now, as in entirely closed? I haven't been there in years, and it looked kind of weak back then.
@@douglassun8456 I'm pretty sure it's permanently closed and being entirely replaced
Toronto, London, many cities throughout Japan and China, and even in Iceland, have malls attached to transit hubs.
It is always funny to me that US malls struggle as much as they do, where when you have malls that are directly integrated into transit systems you often see large amount of foot traffic and they are not just a collection of shops but social spaces and often times places with a lot of restaurants and eating.
My experience has generally been it's the malls that I do not need a car to get to that have the largest crowds and seem to be thriving.
Yeah. Malls traditionally took a social function, but cars used to be more of a fact of life; that’s not as true now.
@@unconventionalideas5683 Cars did not really become a fact of life most places until after World War II.
The centralization of commerce and bazaars existed long before.
Having malls located at places where people pass through follows the flow of people. Having people drive out to the centralized shopping is a relatively new and, in light of how well it is performing, perhaps brief phenomenon.
@@coreyhipps7483 Alas, the US largely doesn't have those transit systems, due to our choice to waste money on cars instead. And we really do have a huge amount of retail space per capita.
In my city, we have a few miles that are thriving and a few that are basically dead.
The successful malls are all surrounded by residential areas, houses, apartments, and businesses as well.
The ones that are suffering are often in the suburbs with nothing around them but a huge parking lot and a few other businesses that you have to suffer through traffic to get through.
It seems location is the most important aspect.
I was just contemplating how every mall in town when I was a kid is still there, and most of them have also expanded during those decades. They are also all in the middle of residential neighbourhoods, and serve as neighbourhood centres so residents don't have to travel downtown for an errand or for going to a café.
To give an opposite example though: I live in downtown Cleveland OH, nearly 20,000 residents downtown, and yet there are THREE dead malls downtown. It's incredibly depressing, especially since all three are grand beautiful malls that are... mostly empty. One of them is even the largest stop on all the converging RTA transit lines and it's still not enough to keep most of it afloat. It's such a shame
@@GavinMichaelsTower City not being successful is painful to behold. However, while the mall section is basically dead, the hotel above and transit below mean the building still sees use. Unfortunately, there's just too much retail space in downtown Cleveland relative to the population and reduced physical shopping demands, and turning that mall into anything useful such as housing would be really hard. I don't know what they can do.
I left Cleveland a few years ago and do miss it sometimes. I also lived downtown, but 2020 was a rough time with no outdoor space.
it depends. my city has 3 malls that are still open. 2 fit your examples… dying mall in the middle of suburbia, thriving mixed-use development. there’s another mall that is doing well thats just a suburban hellscape tho.
the two malls that have closed in the last 10 years were also suburban, but in poorer areas. there’s another mixed use development, not a mall but walkable and mostly outdoors, that’s doing pretty well. the money aspect is big though… the three malls + the walkable development are on the wealthier north side of the city.
Malls in my metro area: Orlando.gov have slowed greatly- 2004 to 2024 but few have completely closed 🏚 mainly due to business travel, foreign re-sale entrepreneurs, lower income people who want AC but get out of the house, apt with kids. Florida Mall, Mall of Millenia, Altamonte Springs FL mall are all open but have closed spaces.
It’s mostly anecdotal but both malls near me are always full and busy. Even on week days
Where I am a lot of malls have closed in the last 30 or so years and no new malls have been built in 20 years. But the bigger ones have been doing well. I think with all the others growing away it reached a healthy level.
Yeah no not here they're all closing
It definitely depends on the location too.
Malls are some of the best places for increased residential development in parking lots. They have one owner, which streamlines the redevelopment process. If we redevelop malls to support new residential surrounding parking lots, they will be around for a long time and support a great, walkable, quality of life. Bonus points if it becomes a TOD with a BRT or Tram.
my best friend just moved into a new apartment in the OC, CA that was a converted mall/parking structure!
This is exactly what is done in most Asian cities. Malls are becoming giant TODs nowadays, ensuring a constant stream of foot traffic.
Only problem is if the zoning allows such residential development. (It probably doesn't.)
@@mindstalk hence why it's time to deregulate most zoning codes
It seems apparent that some Canadian malls in cities with rapid transit found are still kicking when it became a transit hub or expanded upon their transit services with a subway, LRT, metro, or skytrain service. With it, it spirited Transit Oriented Devlopment practically building a “city mall” area in Vancouver and Toronto.
With my small city in canada on certain corridors still have malls and on one street they have 3 malls placed on different parts of it. Not as strong as it was years ago but still surviving with parking lots redeveloped, mid rise apartments around it, and being a bus hub. Though it be interesting if they implement a BRT or LRT on the road to have a better service on a major corridor.
Fun fact: Here in Lima line 1 of the metro connects to various shopping malls along the way. If you're unlucky enough to land in Lima when you visit Peru, try to get to the metro line to see them.
The stations where you get to a walking distance to the shopping malls are the following:
-Los Jardines station: future mall will be built there.
-Pirámide del sol station: Mall aventura plaza is just at a walking distance and currently the area was an old industrial urbanization[from the 80's] being redeveloped.
-Gamarra station: it leads you to GAMA Moda Plaza. Alternatively you can go to Arriola station.
-La cultura station: La Rambla shopping mall is located in front of the station.
-Angamos station: the Real plaza Primavera is adjacent to the station.
-Atocongo station: Mall del sur is just at a walking distance from the station.
So you have 6 out of the 26 stations with a shopping mall nearby.
Thank you for the info!
I think that is the right way to build a mall; not an isolated building in the suburbs, but a transit connected building in a city.
Something that seems to be ignored is that corporate greed contributes to malls closing. Leaseholders raise the rent on a space to unsustainable levels for the average small business, and corporate stores refuse to see their profits decrease as a result of a higher lease payment, so the stalemate leads to stores closing. In my area, Benderson Development seems to own every commercial building in existence. The number of empty buildings tells me they'd rather have them sit empty than charge reasonable lease rates. Whether people like chain stores or not, they do have their place, but their need for more more more helps nobody. Obviously, online shopping has had an impact, but if large retail stores would price fairly without gouging the consumer, more people may be inclined to shop there.
The now demolished mall I used to go to years ago was bought out by Simon who then proceeded to jack everyone's rent through the roof. This forced out someone I knew who operated several kiosks and some of the other smaller, niche retailers and food operators, which left the mall filled with generic chain stores and many empty stores. I have no idea why they did that because it ended up losing them a ton of money, and led to it's closure.
I live in Puerto Rico, a colony of the United States. We have the biggest mall in the whole Caribbean. Plaza Las Americas is a gorgeous mall and that place won't die. The Macy's store is always jammed packed. Zennial mall rats are a thing. Then there are malls that started reusing spaces. So instead of just stores, we have go carts, doctor's offices, art galleries, art expos, artisan fairs, government offices (smaller branches so the big ones don't get filled), and even spaces where people rent out for dancing classes and all other sorts os services to the community.
Sounds a whole lot like how malls are treated in the Philippines…
I love rice
There’s a weird strip mall near me (idk if that term applies here exactly, there’s two big stores on each end and between them is stores only accessible from the interior). Anyway, I don’t think there’s much going on in there other than a large dim sum restaurant and a small children’s store, but there’s also a DMV location which seems like a good use for that space.
Good to know that there's one Macy's that's doing well. I think the word "gorgeous" is key. If it gives you a positive feeling just being there, a mall is a destination in and of itself and you have a reason to go there on top of or even instead of just shopping.
@@mixolydia3309 I think what you describe is just a regular mall. Strip malls have stores accessed by a footpath between the parking lot and the stores.
2:34 I think this is the most important part people blame the pandemic and online shopping, yet the richer you are the more of your shopping you do online. Yet malla for the rich are thriving. Online retail and covid obviously had an effect. But what we are actually seeing is the cost of living crisis that is why the people who gained the most over the last few years have malls that are thriving and the ones that lost the most are d ying. It shows the true importance of inequality in our society.
Online retail is where the rich spend their money. Malls are where they spend their physical time (and occasionally money). Like a lot of other things in our unequal modern society, things and experiences for the rich are being built while things for everyone else are dying out.
Weirdly enough in my country more online retails/stores opening stores at the mall bc there will be a demand for people who are lazy to browse online or they want to see the quality of the products they're selling
Covid had an affect because people believed this hoax. Covid is fabricated by the European union.
Exactly. What we're seeing is that the bourgeousie is thriving as usual, pretending that the world is still like it was when they were young, while the working class is, well, working.
Unpopular opinion: Buying things on Malls and Irl stores is better than buying online.
To some extent it depends on the item but especially if a texture is involved or sizing (which isn't universal) then in store is better to try things on but then unfortunately online stores always have more space. The upside is any store that can order what you need easily if they don't have it on hand and send it to them or for free send it to your home.
really depends. sometimes i'll go to a store to try something on if it's a new brand i'm not familiar with. if it's a brand I've bought from before and know their sizing, it's so much easier to buy online
How is it unpopular it's so widespread it's basically a cliché
Inherently more expensive but that's part of the cost. Getting things immediately and the general social setting are a benefit in the increasingly isolated world
Nah rather replace those lots with parks
From my experience, mall that are connected to a transit system, especially with a metro system, tend to have more customers than car-centric malls.
Using these malls as an example, Pacific Centre, Brentwood, and Metrotown located in British Columbia, Canada all are connected to the SkyTrain, same as Eaton Centre and Yorkdale are with the TTC subway in Ontario. And these malls are always busy with a good chunk of patrons arriving via transit.
Whereas, a mall like Westfield Southcenter near Seattle, WA, United States, is relatively quiet.
Sure, it may be unfair to compared more urban malls like Metrotown and Eaton Centre that has dense development nearby to a more suburban one like Westfield Southcenter, but from my observations, having rapid transit connections, namely a metro system, tends to help a mall out.
By having accessible transit, a mall allows people who cannot/might choose not to drive to have access to the amenities that the mall has to offer as kids, teenagers, seniors, etc can access the mall without having to drive/be driven there.
But that's my observations, as from my perspective, malls connected to a metro system seem to have more customers than fully car-centric ones.
Also, the USA was far more over built with malls than Canada. We moved from Toronto to Philadelphia in 1970. At the time there was only one large mall in all of metro Toronto, Yorkdale Mall. In metro Philly there were several large malls, some just a few miles apart. They are similar size cities. I currently live 50 miles outside of Los Angeles, and we have one large mall surrounded by parking lots, and its thriving. You know why? It is the only mall within 30 miles.
@@gracedagostino5231 US has 23 sqft of retail space per capita. Canada 17, Australia 11, UK 5. That's the top 4 countries!
It's location and circumstance dependent. The Baltimore area had a mall constructed at the end of its subway. It was the first to die and turn into a big box center.
@@josephfisher426Yes, the location is so important!
Malls are the closest Americans will get to walkable cities
I feel like New York is more walkable than a mall. Are other cities not like that
@@racool911 This comment is in reference to literally every other city in America. There are a few major historical cities like New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, etc., that are indeed walkable with good transit.
New cities, and the suburbs even around the historical ones, do not have this same quality. The majority of Americans live in car dependent sprawl with very little real work done to address the issue anywhere
King of Prussia Mall, near where I am from, has all the “tiers” markets for people of all income levels to shop at. Hence, that is why it is one of the more resilient malls.
Mall of Millenia in metro Orlando FL went the wrong way; 2000s. It opened around 2002 but had a slow, low profit start. The mall property nearly closed around 2004, 2005. Over time; the merchants-retail started to appeal to wealthy patrons, rich tourists. Which was smart. Mall of Millenia became popular, made 💰💰💰.
The office I used to work in was 5 minutes from there and I would go there a lot on my lunch break. That place was huge and had pretty much everything, so it's no wonder it's thriving now.
Remember going there once, as a kid in the 80s. My parents sold it as going to Disneyland..
Malls being seen as anti-urbanist is really strange to me. Malls are just a high density pedestrian only space filled with numerous businesses. Strap on a transit station, replace the parking lots with mixed use developments, encourage use by non-retail businesses, and maybe add some housing onto the mall itself and you have everything we ever talk about wanting from cities.
Many were designed to provide the missing walkability to huge sprawling subdivisions. Like bandaids with endless parking
One of the things hurting Malls is also hurting America. My Local Mall and other have basically banned teenagers from visiting the mall. Sure they may not have been big spenders, but our society is building less and less spaces for kids and teens to hang out with their peers outside of schools. Watch any old sitcom and the Mall was a major teen hangout, sometimes they would shop, but at the very least they would be buying food. Teens need to have a safe place to associate with their peers outside of schools and the mall was a good option for many as it was indoors, had security and other around, and parents knew where their child was, but still gave the teens a place to be themselves without parents always watching them.
This is because of changing demographics. Banning "teens" in many urban settings means that you are banning the people who are committing a large portion of armed homicide and armed robbery as well as large fights and brawls. Blame the bad "teens" for this
@@johnjohnsonian4738many such cases. When malls were designed, these kind of people simplely weren’t allow in, or were told to leave
@@johnjohnsonian4738 probably in the US.
In most Asian cities, it's the teens that are fueling the consumerism. Some are even building schools right next to malls.
back when i was in HS there were 2 options after school, f around the shopping centre and have fun or go down to the local creek (very bushy) and participate in inhaling some fumes your parents wouldn't approve of haha. Banning teens from public spaces seems like a great way to fuel teen addiction
@@peepeetrain8755agreed,
Big chunk of this video is a Nebula ad 🤦♀️
Malls in North America basically fill the role, a pedestrianized city center has in Europe. And in fact we see the same problem here: Since covid a lot is those chain-stores are closing - either because the while chain died or because they reduce the number of stores, while concentrating on online shopping. So maybe it's not the mall itself, what is dying, but the individual stores. And reusing that obsolete space for housing (which then almost guarantees customers for the remaining mall) is probably a good idea.
Bingo... Safe-ish third spaces that are neither home nor work or school. While the retailers themselves are being eaten alive by internet retail, the need for the spaces to go have never been higher hence the foot traffic numbers despite the crash in sales per square foot... Good to know the spirit of mall culture will probably outlive its economics... I know I only visit my local mall when I need to get groceries, fill a prescription or eat cheap Japanese food... Otherwise? I don't need to really shop anywhere in the traditional/physical space besides maybe a dispensary... And even that can be done online here legally...
I live right next to The Grove in LA. It's an open air mall with both chainstores as well as pop-ups and boutiques. Right next to it is the Farmers Market. It fits a weird niche between a tourist destination as well as a place for locals to hang out. I think its exactly the type of mall that will always remain relevant.
In 80s-90s they really built malls everywhere. It was inevitable that some if not most would close. I don't think they will disappear, they are too useful of a space, but we definitely had too many of them.
The best ideas for repurposing dead/dying malls I've come up with is conversion to food halls and entertainment with groceries chains as anchors instead of department stores. And some malls are perfect for conversion to expo/conference centers with hotels and possibly a smaller food hall to anchor them.
I live in New Hampshire and the plan to demolish the steeplegate mall is horrendous, if they converted the sears to a 4-5 restaurant food hall, and partnered with a hotel chain build a decent size hotel and attached it to the mall building, they could convert the empty retail into conference rooms, and build the condos they want on the opposite side and it would be a lot better than knocking down the entire thing and replacing it with junk retail, luxury condos, and twice as much parking lot. It's a shame developers have such a lack of vision for what to do with the properties they acquire
High end shopping malls in large highly concentrated urban areas outside of the USA are thriving because of their centralized location and access to rapid transit like subways and light rail.
That, and because the upper class is growing bigger than ever in places outside the US (which is poorer than ever).
Top malls are absolutely thriving - I work for a large retail company that owns multiple brands and while the “bad” malls took longer to die than expected, the dominant super regional A-grade centers are still booming and a source for sales growth
I recently moved to an area that has a thriving mall and I feel like I've been transported back to the 80's and 90's when I go there. It is always packed, has almost no closed stores, and has a lot to do. I went there on a Saturday 2 weeks before Christmas and it was so packed I could barely move. I almost cried because it reminded me of my mall rat days growing up in the 90's.
@@hiflyer000There are of course going to be malls that thrive as not all malls are dying. It definitely depends on the area. In our area, we only have one major mall that has a big arcade, play area for kids, a big food court,etc… Basically, malls need to adapt in order to survive and not just have retail stores only. They need entertainment and many other kinds of stores to attract people to come.
What infuriates me is that undeveloped land is ruined for new retail spaces all the time when there are plenty of underutilized mall parking lots that can/should be redeveloped.
It's those blasted Parking Minimums!!!!!
The Apple Store is always indicator of a malls viability.
1 Apple store needs 400 to 700 thousand people with an average income of 80 000 per year.
I’m not super big on “mall shopping” but I still love the modicum of walking around a mall to browse around or do other stuff like grabbing a bite, going somewhere for an arcade or movie, or just wandering. I don’t think malls as a US staple would completely die out since my area still has malls that are hanging on but still have other amenities like newer restaurants, or other things like arcades, which help make them worth visiting for more than just shopping.
Seems like arcades suck now compared to the 80s & 90s, they're all claw machines these days
@@chillydawgg4354that's the most profitable arcade game, it's simply good business
That is so true which is why many malls are adding more restaurants, movie theaters, arcades and other forms of entertainment instead of just shopping only. I noticed that with the only big mall in my area. They have a big arcade with a karaoke bar, many places to eat and some areas for kids to play too. Malls need to adapt and offer more than just shopping in order to survive.
I think shopping malls have to evolve beyond just an endless array of clothing stores. There should be wineries, restaurants and after hour bars where ppl can drink, places where kids have things to keep them occupied, maybe a place where they make great beer battered corn dogs and pretzels. Some malls have churches and doctors offices mixed with shopping, food, and apartments. Put a variety of things in that people like and they’ll come
I agree and having more than just clothing stores is what they need to do. They need to offer more than just shopping in order to survive.
I grew up in King of Prussia, and any mall historian will tell you that the Kind of Prussia Mall was one of the earliest big malls in the country - it was the largest mall in the US until the Mall of America opened. As a teen, I appreciated it because it was a place to go for food and entertainment. The mall has changed significantly, it's more than doubled in size and has attracted many high-end luxury stores; it's definitely considered a "top-tier mall". Meanwhile, I've changed significantly as well and the ostentatious consumerism is pretty off-putting. I'm also disappointed by the architectural sameness of all the malls. If you blindfolded someone and dropped them in the middle of most malls, they'd have zero contextual clues to indicate where they were. At least the casinos in Las Vegas, as overblown as they are, have a well-defined style and theme so that there's not a sad, boring sameness...
In San Diego we have two malls within a few miles. One is near death, and the other is Top Tier and full all the time. Mission Valley Mall vs Fashion Valley Mall
Orlando FL is the same. Some malls 2020s post 😷 have seen growth, 🔨🏗👷🏻♂️. Some are empty, have gangs-crime.
When you have 2-3 big malls close by, they compete to survive. In our area, we only have one big mall so they don’t need to compete with anyone. They have a big arcade, a place or kids to play and many restaurants to eat besides just shopping stores.
If malls took half their parking lot and turned into high rise condo/apartment you could make a mini walkable city.
That's the Toronto model plus add transit to it
Already my favorite mall doesn’t have enough parking spots.
Two malls near me tried that it it ended up being pretty disastrous. That could be because they decided to be "luxury" apartments and charge 2 arms and a leg for rent, or it could be that people in the US don't really want to live that lifestyle.
I think converting a mall into a high school is so awesome! Universities usually have escalators but not high schools.
Malls are only dieing inside the US, outside of the US more are being built every yr. Its not online shopping causing this. Its actually the mall owners charging both rent and profit sharing, as smaller business move out, this creates a domino effect on shoppers and the larger businesses.
Back in the 80's malls were ' Third Places ' for many.
In the Philippines, Malls have replaced Parks as a third place due to urbanization. Literally have masses on sundays too on some malls and areas in it while having department stores, clinics, shops, restaurants, travel agencies, hardware stores, bookstores innit
What’s actually happening is that there are just too many malls in the US. They all have exactly the same stores and they end up competing against each other. If you watch Salvatore Amadeo’s ExLog series, one of the things that comes up again and again is that these malls started dying like 20 years ago when a nicer, newer mall opened up nearby and took away lots of their business,
That isn't really true, there are a bunch of countries where malls are also declining, the biggest factor is if the region overbuilt on malls.
I think a lot of the malls are just dying because they are just completely inconvenient to get to, period. Here in Sacramento, California, at least both Arden Fair and Roseville Galleria haven't completely collapsed because they are easily accessible due to being right next to a major freeway interchange. San Jose's Valley Fair is not only next to a freeway but easily accessible by Santa Clara VTA's excellent bus system.
Here in Norway, many malls are essentially parts of downtown developments, filling up a city block or two right by the main square, by the train station, or elsewhere with room for a big building. Most of them are located next to a downtown throughfare, however, and contain a rather large parking structure in the back. But as a general rule, they are quite accessible on foot too, and well integrated in the urban fabric. Then again, we also have plenty of the US-style malls at the outskirts of town, surrounded by parking lots and difficult to reach or traverse on foot. I think their construction has been banned in recent years, however.
That is super good that Norway banned suburban stroad based malls! This kind of development only stirs urban sprawl. Proper malls should be built in busy metropolitan areas to allow those access to transit and other means of mobility after shopping.
Not all malls are created equal. I think there's also an important distinction to be made between urban and suburban malls. While urban malls also come with their own set of problems (a retail and foot traffic sink that can suck some of the streetlife out of the surrounding area if the population density isn't high enough), they're generally far better than their suburban cousins. No massive parking lots, more verticality, better integration with office and residential space, etc etc.
What would be the difference between an urban and a suburban mall? I’m from NYC which has many different shopping districts, blocks of local shops in residential neighborhoods, and a mix of small and large malls depending on what borough you’re in. There are suburban malls out in Long Island that people with cars drive out to.
@@MONET8iAM Like I said above, they tend to have a much smaller footprint (no surface parking, built up not out, often better integration with office and residential space, often just smaller in the first place). Suburban malls tend to be sprawling, one or two stories (exceptions here, but they're... exceptions) and be surrounded by a sea of surface parking because you have to drive to get to them. Urban malls are generally less destructive and tend to be healthier if they're built in high density areas (NYC being a great example of that, and there are a ton of urban malls in other high density cities like Tokyo).
Is a yearly income of 99,000 dollars considered low income? Since when does the mid income category start at 100k? Is this supposed to be Australian or NZ Dollars or did I miss anything?
Metropolis mall in Burnaby, BC, Canada is the largest and busiest mall in the region. It's next to the regions 2nd busiest metro station, and the mall is currently being doubled-down on with long-term redevelopment by adding over a dozen towers on to it while concurrently giving the mall itself a refresh. An extremely busy bus exchange will be integrated in to it (as it already is) as well as a sizeable theatre/event space
"Build it and they will come"
Prior to SkyTrain (yes, I'm that old...) the Metrotown area was out in the middle of nowhere. Now it's a destination in its own right.
Large Asian immigrant population usually means the mall will do well.
Mall of America also has a transit center in what was a parking bay. The tram takes you to the airport and then to Minneapolis. There's also many bus lines.
I think suburban malls were overbuilt in the 80s and 90s, but in the 2000s and 2010s the malls that had money reinvested in making themselves a nicer destination experiences, while the malls that didn't so that lost their shoppers to online retail and the nicer malls.
Mall of America is definitely the future of traditional shopping malls imo. But smaller suburban malls could be transformed into a hub for local stores and restaurants which would be cool
Same with WEM here in Edmonton. The mall as spectacle will never really go away. These mega malls have become "the medium is the message" type event spaces where going to "THE MALL" is like visiting Disneyland for people in MSP or YEG... Complete with mini amusements too! And yes even NYC with American Dream/Xanadu and perhaps even one day in Miami if the Ghermezians can ever get the financing to get its 4th mega-mall built...
SM Investments Corporation / SM Philippines should have a branch in the US. They can show how to "properly operate" a Mall.
Tbh I feel like the moa is shifting more towards being a resort then a shopping center (very slowly). They already have hotels built in and are planning to add a Waterpark, another parking structure and then another hotel. Also not many local shops in the moa. Love the aquarium and transit center tho.
I happened to be at Del Amo Mall here in Torrance yesterday. It was, at one time, the largest mall in the U.S. These days it features a high end wing and a dying, low income wing. As I wandered around the sad sack wing, I was pleasantly startled to hear Sonic Youth being piped through the sound system! Pretty rad!
the sad sack wing lmao
In Nashville, Vanderbilt Health redeveloped an old mall into a giant med/health center. Super efficient to see your doctor and then walk across the "corridor" to get labs done, go see a specialist a few steps away, and why not get colonoscopy while you are hanging-out (ha). They even kept some elements of the food court too (need to grab a cinnabon after the colonoscopy). All joking aside, good redevelopment idea.
Shopping malls are like a nice, highly walkable urban neighborhood, but one in which a hundred times as many potential customers can conveniently access it, and they are much easier to stock and staff. Also they don't have rain.
In eastgerman you could say "Konsumpalast" (Palace of Consume).
I went back to Arden Fair in Sacramento for the first time in 10+ years and it was 90% jewelry stores. Strange to see from what I remember in my childhood.
This is definitely hyperbole.
As a european, one of the things that shocked me about malls in the U.S was the fact that there usually weren't big supermarkeds like Target and Walmart in them. Have ben to both Mall of America and King of Prussia mall.
Online shopping will never replace the instant look or try-on experience. Higher income customers love this and can afford the regular prices (with some discounts). However customers for lower income malls would likely shop online or other discount stores, rather than pay full price in person.
I've often read people complaining about the very cheap cost of items(and the fact they aren't very reliable and horrible quality), off of certain sites like Temu. Does gives me hope that people will lose interest in ultra cheap sites like that, and I hope that malls hang on myself. Since to me I like being able to try clothes on, myself.
Malls are a really efficient use of space and save consumer's time when done right. So much of our infastructure is so spread out that its hard to visit multiple stores without multiple stressful drives in high traffic in our car dependant cities. Sometimes its even impossible to think of if the climate in your area is snowy or searing hot.
Malls thrive in places where thats the case. Malls should embrace that and look at themselves as centers of traffic. The malls where i live have USPS offices, walgreens pharmacies, electronics stores and daycare centers. You could live in it if they had apartments inside.
And that mall is doing better than most. I hope malls devellop into what they were always meant to be. A suburban megabuilding where you can get anything at your convenience.
Eastridge Mall was a big deal in San Jose in the 70's. It wasn't the first mall in San Jose, but was an early one and by far the largest. We would go there once a year for Xmas shopping. We would all split up and our shopping, then meet at the food court for lunch. It was a fun trip to look forward to.
When Eastern Europeans visited America after the Iron Curtain came down, they saw the malls and loved them. They loved them so much that they put them in prime locations. These European malls are doing really well. Meanwhile, the American malls in the middle of nowhere are shutting down.
Shopping malls are great places. America just has too many of them.
I think the funny part about malls is once your inside you don't need a car. We should make everything like that, people seem to like it
my australian town built a shopping centre, which killed the main street shopping, then they built another shopping centre for god knows why (genuiley don't know what they were thinking of building another shopping centre in a small town, we can barely support the first one) which ofcourse has now killed the original shopping centre.
So my town has a building where all the shops are, an abandoned main street and a shopping centre where 90% of it has been closed down. It's quite hard to sell the town now as an attractive place to set up shop here when half the town has lost it's shopping in 10 years.
there are too many shopping malls. Many are gonna shut,
Shopping malls are not "great places."
Walkable, mixed-use, and transit-oriented districts and neighborhoods are great places.
Mid-block pedestrian passages that are enclosed may be woven into such districts and neighborhoods, but these elements avoid the design flaws of the shopping mall.
It's interesting. In my native Spain, in my hometown, a small-ish 120 thousand town, a mall that opened up there around the mid-90s and caused MASSIVE amounts of damage to local businesses, has evolved too. There used to be a decent multi-screen cinema, it shut down, then a bigger one opened up in an extension on the roof several years later. You don't find that many people buying, but there's always someone, because most big brand stores are there. It's a good thing, because it means that if you want something different, you can open up a shop in the middle of town, instead of this mall (which is in downtown proper, but at the edge), and also some smaller fashion shops have opened business there because people not finding what they want at H&M or Zara or GAP or similar places will go to those smaller (and, let's be realistic, BETTER) shops.
Where I'm now, in Japan, it's different. Malls have never gone away or waned in popularity. In the 20 plus years I've lived here, I've seen in this area (this is NOT Tokyo, the capital might as well be a completely different country, believe me; this is a big urban area, but not the capital), I can recall, in the last 20 years, 6 or 7 malls (not as large as American ones, but big) being opened in the overall megalopolis here, a bunch of outlet malls, and a set of 3 smaller malls being consolidated into one and being reborn and rebranded. What you have seen here is larger, older malls shut down or rebrand themselves because their customer base were older 50+ year old people, or, let's put it mildly, geriatric customers, and that's not the target audience you have to aim for if you want a long term prospect of growth, and because older people in Japan have money, if younger people wanted something more retro from there (it happens!), they could not buy it because it was beyond their budget. So, younger people have flocked to cheap-ass fashion and new, more flashy malls. Here in Japan, then, malls are doing GREAT and they have not suffered that much from online sales, in part because shopping online is not as prevalent here in Japan as it is in America, and in part because malls have had like a 90% of their surface devoted to fashion shops, and people STILL want to be able to try the clothes they buy. Personally, and anecdotally, I tried the whole "buy online" for clothes, and nope, even if you know your size, different manufacturers interpret size in different ways and it's tough to find clothes you can confidently buy online without trying them first.
I still love going to the mall!
Even if a mall doesnt have a good reuse case, its parking lot certainly would. Massive open area with excellent road access? Perfect spot for something better
The takeover mobs that loot the malls might make the mall die again we are having a problem with that at the del amo mall in torrance, CA
Outdoor malls with mixed use development have better ROI, and it's cheaper to demolish an old mall and build a new one from scratch than it is to renovate. So while a site might not have enough shopping traffic to sustain a single-use indoor mall, it might have enough to make an outdoor mixed use mall profitable
Of I could buy mall property, I would definitely make sure housing is part of the mix. It’s like an easy decision. You basically create a place where people can easily walk to and shop. Add a park and a great highschool and it’s a wrap! A mini-walkable and bikeable city that you can still drive to and shop at with a somewhat captive audience and serves the greater area as well.
I’m surprised more people aren’t doing this. It’s a great mixed use play.
In my home town of Munich (Germany), most malls are doing great. Why? Because they are in densely populated areas and are easily accessible by public transport, with most of them having direct connection to a subway station, as well as several bus and/or tram lines.
On a recent visit to Bangkok I saw that the malls there are also thriving - and as in Munich, they are located in busy areas, close to/connected with public transit, and, in addition, many are upper end. An additional factor in the case of Bangkok: the climate. The malls are all air conditioned, making them a great place to go to escape the heat.
Maybe Metallica will Kill The Mall ? Ok... I am sorry...
An evolution of Malls to help counter the death of 3rd place to give people a place to hang out could be quite useful. Ideally we'd also add housing within walkable distances.
Malls are a place teens can gather and socialize, in person. There are also many malls with senior walking and other non commercial activities that mimic the classic "community center". Malls are also great places for seasonal storefronts to go to. Its a separate discussion if one use throw away seasonal stores should be catered to. Our local mall has many bus lines and serves as a transfer station. It has a dozen or so sit down restaurants and if they ever figure out light rail will double as an intermodal transport center. In sum a destination mall is more than the sum of its parts.
Teens? 2024? Ummmm I can cite crimes, gangs, human trafficking, serious problems. Rich malls, poor malls. Big malls, small malls. It does not matter. PS- I do security, Orlando Florida, since 2000. Armed & unarmed posts 👮🏽♂️.
I liked malls in the 20th century. They used to have a variety of stores that brought me in. First, it was the arcades and toy stores, then the book stores, music stores, some even had comic book stores, some had pet stores. Now, it just seems like a bunch of shitty clothes stores. But hey, many of them have a Spencer's. That is worth a few minutes, I guess.
I live in Taiwan. In Asia, including Taiwan, Japan, Thailand, Hong Kong and China, shopping malls (departments) in many cities will be located in or near stations. Not only subway stations, some railway stations and high-speed rail stations will also have shopping malls attached. ; Then in the suburbs, there are also shopping malls with a large number of parking lots. However, suburban shopping malls are usually only crowded during holidays. Shopping malls in cities have always been prosperous due to the passenger flow from stations.
Shopping malls that cater exclusively to car-addicted suburbanites and criminalise using the mall as a hangout spot are dying, while properly run malls aren't.
The size of the mall is also a big factor in its adaptability. I lived in a rural college town of 50K with a small suburban mall that was like one long hallway with one major anchor store at the end and no real food court. Just had a few local restaurants with interior entrances and a pretzel shop. The rest of the connected buildings were just large strip mall stores (Michaels, Ulta) and a large supermarket that attracted more traffic. Also the outdoor strip mall storefronts were connected by a short sidewalk to enter the indoor mall. It has never really been dead thanks to this layout. It has only gotten busier since a new Target took over the dead end anchor store.
There is a mall with a similar setup near my town, however it’s never crowded despite the size. It feels like people are scattered around, and mostly at the attached stores/restaurants, and the movie theater. The mall Santa looked so bored and lonely this past holiday, I was shocked that they still do holiday photos there.
@@MONET8iAM Damn that sounds rough for Santa. Mine had decent foot traffic, especially in colder winter months. But it never really felt packed. I don't even think mine had a mall Santa. Just a car giveaway at one point.
The US shopping malls should visit Australia shopping centres to get ideas. Australian top-tier shopping centres has everything.
i work at a shopping center and it is not even close to dying, it's actually performing better than before the pandemic
I think what happened is a lot of other retailed died and we are now at a level that can support the existing malls
@@pleasedontwatchthese9593 and post pandemic, most people subconsiously realised how important social interaction is and more people are spending more time in third spaces and in alot of cities, malls are one of the only third places you have really. I know many people who would go to the shopping centre to just hang around, grab a feed and socialise instead of the quick in-n-out we used to do pre-pandemic
Malls here in Asia are thriving and incredible. In the US I was never a mall guy, but here in Asia I love wondering around them
While growing up, the mall in my town had 20-30 stores, a few places to eat, vendors, an arcade, and a movie theater later converted to a laser tag arena. I've been told it is still open with three local stores and an always-empty parking lot.
Most malls that actually die do so either because a newer mall was built close by or because the local population declined enough to no longer support it. I think that malls are the only thing that satisfy the "third place" for a lot of people, and they don't want to see that disappear.
Please consider doing a video on Radburn New Jersey!
Malls won’t go anywhere in the Portland Oregon area because the weather is pretty shitty year round lol
I personally believe accessibility is the biggest factor to the failure or success of malls, at least around where I live.
My 2 favorite malls both have easy highway access and have residential areas within walking distance. One even has a whole bus terminal directly next to it, but sadly, it's a horrible walk with barley a sidewalk to and from the mall itself.
I really want just one of those malls to widen their sidewalks and actually make a path from apartments to the mall without needing to walk through the parking lot, just one side walk, one path is all I want.
Metrocenter mall here in Phoenix is being demolished for a new Metrocenter mall. New train station opened too!
malls are so dead, so outdated
I found the mega malls tend or the outdoor malls tend to do really well.
lol. The genius who thought of outside shopping in Wisconsin! For the win. Lol
why not?
I’ve been to that mall several times. It’s not bad, even in winter. The issue is that it’s all upscale (it’s anchored by Apple, Macys, and LL Bean) and the walkable area also has some vehicle parking that can be tight at times.
I, for one, like to see the fountains and plants. Instead we see people bundled up and moving quickly from one area to spend money to the next. The new model doesn’t really promote community space or organic gatherings whatsoever in the winter. It also means many more store fronts and exterior glass facades with higher expense glazing. The lack of interior partitions tremendous reduces energy efficiency. Beyond this, the salt and additional plow maintenance means more stores have to deal with people tracking in snow and dirt. These are just the more obvious shortcomings.
Philippines: Builds shopping malls like no tomorrow
So they're just...making a downtown.
In Las Vegas, only the tourist area malls are doing well.
It seems that it’s dominated by either upscale or discount outlets.
Towson town center near me is kinda of weird, It seems high end with an Apple Store and high end clothing stores. But also elements of a low tier mall with lots of local stuff that is targeted to the mostly Black population of Baltimore across the border.
That Santa Maria mall was hilariously sports oriented during my high school years. There werent many stores, but there was a lot of sports centers like batting cages, a skate park, and more.
Make the top floor apartments, the middle stores, and the bottom food.
If you want a good example of this case, take a look at the Philippines. It's completely the opposite case with what's going on in North America. Shopping malls in the Philippines are thriving and expanding aggressively whereas US malls are on the steady decline even with some of them being repurpose. Although online shopping exists there, it's very minimal compare to what we have here in the US. Delivering online goods there is a nightmare, delivery folks would be spending more time looking for the actual residential place than actually getting to the address of the recipient. But that's just only one of the many reasons why malls there are thriving. It's a very interesting case to look at.