One thing I'll point out-- Ericthonios looks REMARKABLY similar to the professor that initially asks you to go into Pandemonium, and I doubt that's a coincidence.
@@StoutHelm Right? I forget what SPECIFICALLY it is that he's researching as well, but I wouldn't doubt that is ALSO relevant to what is to come. Only time will tell, I suppose
Something to notice, is that, if you look at the model of the first boss, Erichtonios, in pandaemonium, you can literally see the mask of the Lahabrea we know of, on top of his head, adding more creedance to the theory that Erichtonios will end up as the seat of Lahabrea.
@@StoutHelm my personal theory is that the "current" lahabrea is trying to bring back Athena to life, partially explaining the fact that 2 of the raid bosses so far are themed after death/rebirth (a vampire and a phoenix). And that the last boss of the Last tier might be Lahabrea in his transformed form. After which defeat Erichtonios might take his father's seat in the convocation
I'm making a prediction: in pandemonium we are helping two ascian overlords deal with the chain of events that gave them their seats as Elidibus and Lahabrea
I'm about 80 to 90% certain that Erichthonios is one of the ones who helped Venat summon Hydaelyn and the one that she used to create the Watcher on the Moon. Also, the "love" between Haphaestus and Athena in Greek Mythology struck me as being *decidedly* one-sided and not what we would call "soulmates", which is more reciprocal. That would also track with what we have in-game as Athena surrendered her life when she felt that she had completed her duty. There are no indications that she was killed "before her time", so to speak, except for Lahabrea's refusal to mourn her and his hyperfixation on his work and resurrection magics.
Regarding Azem, I am guessing that as the echo gives different abilities to different people in the future, it's likely the same in the ancient world. We know that Venat reached out to Azem for help with summoning Hydaelyn and received no reply. They also walked away from the convocation. My guess is that Azem possesses abilities similar to Mide, the ability to see glimpses of the future. They knew they had a role to play and it was through inaction in the past. They couldn't act against the convocation as it would endanger a very important friendship with Hades so they just had to walk away and ensure that they were in a position to be sundered. I wouldn't be surprised if we find out that Lahabrea is actively involved in the problems in Pandaemonium and we end up fighting him in the end. Erichthonios, being the last person in the facility that is still on task, he could be elevated to fill the seat and become the Lahabrea that we know.
Something I find interesting in the Asphodelos Raids is the fact that the two creatures we fight do have some very interesting abilities that can be used to cheat death. Hippokampos can regrow its head and Phoinix is using necromancy to resurrect the four little birds we killed ( even though the resurrection was quite flawed ). Also Erich is a very interesting character. His boss fight doesn't really fit with what he told us until now. Very bad with any magic other than chain magic? Sure, overwhelm us with ice and fire, seperated by dark fire and fire fucking true holy at us...Also transforming the area in Pandaemonium? Even though its stated that only the key warden should be able to do it ( and very likely the chief key warden ). And then there is the fact that his transformation has Lahabreas mask on it. In a society where normal people wear normal masks and the unique masks of the convocation are their way of identifying who is who on the convocation, the only one who should have Lahabreas mask on his body should be Lahabrea himself. Otherwise it would be impersonation of a governmental figure... There is no reason for this mask to be on Erichs body, transformation or not. Guy is fishy as fuck and there is much more to him than we know right now.
I just hope we get to fight a prototype of Zodiark. We know the one who came up with the concept of Zodiark is lahabrea and it’s possible he created a prototype in order to try to revive Athena. Well, that and I just think the Zodiark trial was underwhelming and I’d love to see that fight turned up to 11
Why would a prototype be any better than the final product, sundered or not? Wouldn't it simply be what Eden's Verse: Refulgence was to Hydaelyn? Or I guess it might be as strong as Zodiark was when we fought him, sundered as he was.
@@crazy13alex Recall that the Zodiark we fought on Mare Lamentorum is effectively 1/2 of the true Zodiark, released from his confinement early solely for the purpose of being killed. It would make sense, then, that a hypothetical Proto-Zodiark would be at least on par with that. I have a feeling, though, that the Ancients were capable of foresight regarding the amount of power that a being of such massive aether costs would need. As such, I feel like if there is a Proto-Zodiark in Tartaros, it would be something closer to the original, full-power primal. Or it could do what Eden did and crank any references it has to 11 in the last tier. We'll have to see- I'm excited, either way.
One interesting thing is that we have a very short voiced cutscene at the end of the endwalker msq that acts as a teaser for pandaemonium. We see a figure (who we can’t see the full face of but is clearly themis based on his hair) and he’s voiced by the same voice as Elidibus was in shadowbringers patch content. So I think it’s safe to say they’re definitely the same person, whether he has the seat yet or not!
It wasn't mentioned, but Themis is all but certainly Elidibus. In the 6.0 post-credits cutscene raid teaser, Elidibus' VA is used to voice Themis. Unless it's a massive fake out, but that seems unlikely. Also I predict that the person Elidibus swore to (that he no longer remembers) is us, and we'll see him swear to us in the final tier, probably the final cutscene from Elpis.
@@kiameiluvbot ''And a truth that fills my heart'' line and him being willing to sacrifice himself to send us into Elpis starts making more and more sense, no?
Thanks for the reminder before the patch :) Some good theorycraft as well. I never thought of Athena being Phoenix, that's a cool theory I can subscribe to!
By the way, Themis already is Elidibus. There’s optional dialogue in Elpis where someone (I forget who) explains that the only people permitted to wear white are retired convocation members like Venat and he who holds the seat of Elidibus.
While that is true about the robes, that leads to the question of why is going by his original name, and why isn’t he sporting the correct colored mask?
Not entirely true, he said the white robe means they are an impartial and trustable advisor. Elidibus is viewed as one because he is the emissary it is his job to be impartial and handle disputes, Venat because she retired from the convocation and chose to stick around (although saying shes "impartial" is a bit of a stretch). Im sure it is entirely possible to be seen as an impartial advisor and not be an ex-member of the convocation or be Elidibus, and its also entirely possible that he is an ex-convocation member of a different seat (although ofcourse he seems a bit on the younger side). Infact if he was already seen as an impartial advisor it would be even easier for him to be elected to the seat of Elidibus
“So pray tell me, what’s my name?” said Themis. “You are Themis” answered Lahabrea after giving him a quick look. “Indeed, and you are certainly not Lahabrea or you would call me not with my true name. The true Lahabrea would call me Elidubus”. From 6.2 patch. Yeah, something of that xD.
Love the idea that Athena's part may yet be finished! However, I'd like to point out that according to the short story, it was during the examination in Amaurot when the drifting soul emerged with Phoenix, thus Hythlodaeus called it an accident. I don't think it was Athena, but I'd love to meet Athena in other forms in future circles. And another small but interesting detail is that during one cutscene (MSQ The Wheel Turns) in the Chinese version, Emet referred to Lahabrea as “老爷子, the old man". I'm not sure whether it was canon or the translation team just made that up, and sadly I don't understand Japanese so I can't verify that. Should it be canon, then it indicates that the Lahabrea we met is older than Emet and less likely to be Ericthonios. Plus Emet thought of Lahabrea as fire just like his creation when he was told that Lahabrea had gone (Ere Our Curtain Falls). So I tend to believe Lahabrea has been the same person all along, and Ericthonios would be in charge of Pandaemonium in the end. Can't wait for more Pandaemonium content! And thanks for the video!
Emet-Selch does indeed use 'old man' (あの爺さん) to refer to Lahabrea in that quest in JP as well (also ラハブレアの爺さん) in the 'Ere Our Curtain Falls' short story). Not discounting the possibility of shenanigans down the line, but definitely one of the things that has me most dubious of the 'Erichthonios is the Lahabrea we knew' theory as things are now.
Hesperos might be the first ever recorded case of tempering before the world was sundered .....its a theory ive been thinking on cuz his condition isnt too far removed from tempering cases like the heavens'ward who were confirmed in an interview with koji fox iirc that they were tempered by Thordan but not to the severe extent other primals temper their subjects as they still retain their personalities. If Zodiark was created or concieved as a concept inside pandaemonium,maybe hesperos was the first subject lahabrea used to test tempering and how it affects a victim
Athena - Goddess of Enlightenment, Reason. Athens , home of philosophy and rhetoric. Igeyorhm the seat on the Convocation for enlightenment and rhetoric.. Works with Lahabrea, fuses into Ascian Prime (Something we've only seen the lovers Mitron and Logriff do besides). In Both their battle, and in Hades Ex, Laha and Iggy use fire and ice attacks respectively. Erichthonios' whole battle is Fire & Ice Based. :)
But she was dead by the time of the events of Pandæmonium so I’m not sure how she could be the Igeyorhm we encountered because she can’t have been sundered.
I’m not convinced quite yet Ericthonios is our Lahabrea at this point in time. Mainly due to how poor his skill is with any magics other than warding magic. The seat itself is not exactly going to be passed down if the holder is not considered appropriate or one best suited for the role, which Ericthonios is not at this time. I do suspect we will get our answer the further we go into the raids.
How could he be? Lahabrea is an unsundered, there was no chance for reincarnation. So the one we killed is the only Lahabrea that's existed since the sundering.
@@RemiusTheAwesome Yes. That’s why I think the Lahabrea we know from our time was the one still holding the seat before and after the sundering. There’s a theory that Ericthonios became the next Lahabrea, but I do not believe that theory without more concrete proof.
I think someone successfully create the real 1st primal (Zodiark prototype?) in there and get tempered by them. The reason everyone get weird because the get tempered by that primal.
i suspect the lahabrea they are talking about is not our lahabrea but Ericthonios could be the future lahabrea we know since we read in the game from elidibus memories that lahabrea was a chill guy always looking at the better part of life "...gaze outside the window my friend. The rains have ceased, and we have been graced with another beautiful day" those are lahabrea words. also lahabrea and elidibus were friends
So that begs the question of how Ericthonios got better at magic worthy enough for the position? You need to have the skills needed to hold the seat and so far he doesn’t.
@@acgearsandarms1343 I'm thinking that erichthonios will earn the seat of the speaker (lahabrea) through his accomplishment rather than any particular powerup. His accomplishment being stopping his father, the current lahabrea In pandemonium. Not to mention erichthonios talks about not understanding how somebody could become so disconnected and bitter like hesperos, which is ironic considering it's exactly what happened to our version of lahabrea in the centuries since the sundering.
@@APorter0130 Interesting thought. However the lack of magic talent still worries me because when we meet Lahabrea in our time, he’s still a mage of great power despite being technically weakened from constant body hopping. So there’s still a gap of disconnect that needs answers.
Members of the convocation seem to tap replacements often. Usually their own replacement but... if we kill the Lahabrea in Pandemonium, then he cannot put forth his ideal successor. I suspect it will be Elidibus that suggests Ericthonios take the seat, given his knowledge of Pandemonium and his warding power. I also suspect the WoL's role will be kept to a minimum when spoken of, so it is also likely WoL's achievements are instead said to be Eric's, which can lead to him having a huge imposter's complex. Which could play into our current Lahabrea's issues - the man both always questioned his abilities, had to grow in strength over time after the Sundering to get where he was (but also only so far as we could defeat him and then Thordin could absorb him - Emet is on another level compared to Lahabrea even in our story!), and also had to live with the guilt that his best friend becoming the Heart of Zodiark had effectively changed him and put a great burden on him. He sacrificed his best friend and now must not only stick with the cause to honor that sacrifice, but also be More Ascian than Ascian to make up for any shortcomings in ability. His "weakness" in ability might not also be totally true - something could be holding him back that we will discover in the raid series, either Athena trying to protect him or something else he doesn't even realize. In the myth I know of, Haphaestus was obsessed with Athena and he tried to very much do something non-consensual with her. She escaped, and his... erm... missed shot was thrown on the soil, creating Ericthonios. She then chose to adopt the kid and raise him and after time passes we get the founding of Athens. I suspect while Eric will be their kid, he will find out he was a creation of sorts as well (a very Sephiroth finding out about Jenova thing). This will be how he unlocks any further potential he has (perhaps being a creation he needed to look at learning/using magic from a different angle), but the path to our crazy Lahabrea might make more sense if he felt he was even "less" Ascian for being a creation that, while decidedly like the Ancients, in his mind only so much better than a simulacrum. And then wonder if he even deserved the seat of Lahabrea, if it was just given to save face from his father's actions. Even if Elidibus and Emet didn't see it that way, he might have.
I wonder if Themis is the son or a relative of Venat. They both have white hair and blue eyes. It is likely Elidibus’ death likely freed Fandaniel from being tempered by Zodiark since Elidibus was Zodiark’s heart. There is another possibility that Venat trusted what she learned from the Warrior of Light to Azem. This likely allowed the Warrior of Light’s excuse as Azem’s familiar to not be suspected.
I'm not sure why it would need to be before the events of Elpis, IMO it would be VERY easy to account for Venat and Azem in a much more straightforward fashion. All that Venat would have to do is explain the cycle of future history to Azem, that Azem (sundered) would eventually be (partly) reincarnated as the WOL and be responsible for the redemption and salvation of all life and that all she/he had to do was accept the sundering. Azem would be kind enough and open minded enough to follow and work with this logic because they know Venat has met their future self and both Venat and Azem are both about the greater good and helping people. Any foresight possessed/demonstrated by Azem after the events of Elpis would simply be he/she catching glimpses of their own future history and helping the timeline along. In regards to Azem generally I don't think we need to think in overly complex terms because their storyline and passage through history can just as easily be explained in simple terms, Occam's Razor it.
one possibility is that Erik in some fashion inspires the Phoenix that we know in game, the one Louisoux became. Another, possibly sadder bit, is that Themis begins to look up to the WoL in the same way he does Azem, to the point that WE are what inspires his form in the Seat of Sacrifice. as he said 'an impossibility, and a truth that warms my heart.'
Have you done videos on the different FFXIV player race choices? Like the histories of each race and their 2 tribes, especially about Viera (we all remember the male Viera discourse and why they “shouldn’t” exist, and how this was the same case with Mi’qote, blah blah blah) If you haven’t, I would enjoy these topics!
Okay so I've only done the first wing but I have serious issues with Pandaemonium being placed before the events of Elpis. For one it raises huge questions about how the gateway works, but I also assumed that the reason Emet was begrudgingly willing to let us tag along was because the idea of a concerted, shadowy attempt to actively subvert the status quo was basically unheard of at that point
Themis is certainly already Elidibus in this Pandaemonium quest. Evidence being him in white robe, which is indicative of the wearer either being in office of Elidibus or a retired convocation member (during this time Venat is the only one).
The white robes are meant to symbolize neutrality, and while Elidibus is one of two people we’ve ever seen in one, it’s still possible he’s not in the seat yet. If he was trying to stay undercover wouldn’t the white robe of the emissary be a dead giveaway that he’s important? I could be wrong but that’s my line of thinking.
So I'm working on P5S and something to note. P2 and P5 feature arenas that appear to be parts of Uldah. With P2 appearing to be the sewers we traveled through in the end of ARR, and P5 appears to be Aurum Vale if someone dropped a mountain on it. I also have a theory about why they were after Eric, but I don't know if I should type it here.
Your Channel is amazing dude. I have so many ideas for what I’d love you to cover but since you do such a great job with characters, maybe Fordola or Yotsuyu? Apologies if you have done them already, I would just love to see the Stormblood characters get some love
Thank you so much my friend. I'd love to cover both of them, Fordola is one of my favorites. Stormblood does need some love. I'll see if I can get around to one of them after I get my 6.2 coverage wrapped.
the center or hub of something. "this was the omphalos of confusion and strife" a rounded stone (especially that at Delphi) representing the navel of the earth in ancient Greek mythology. So maybe we see them again thw words for the raid are greek has well
Not likely. Igeyorhm is a different person altogether. Their seat is responsible for enlightenment and rhetoric. So I would say persuasive speaking and writing disseminated to the public. Athena was dead long before the Sundering ever happened, so it can’t have been her nor do I find her a candidate if she was former head keyward.
Something kind of interesting is that, in Hades' extreme fight, when the shades of Lahabrea and Igeyorhm form ascian prime, Emet remarks about them "finally being together again" It could just be that Lahabrea got around, but that'd be a hell of a way to weave in Lahabrea and Igeyorhm's..thing?
Initial assumptions when I played the raids when they came out? Ericthonios is going to be the Lahabrea that we face off against in ARR and kill in Heavenward (well, technically Thordan gets that headcount.) Because Lahabrea is just a title on the convocation, we'll face off against daddy Laha by the end of the Pandaemonium series and then it will end with Ericthonios taking his father's place on the convocation by invitation of Themis (Elidibus.) And then our WoL will realize the implications and have a moment of a mini freakout before Eric is like "Hey, you okay? Listen, thanks for your help, blahblahblah, I hope we meet again some day, well met and take care." And then walks away leaving us with an uneasy feeling before we return to the present time to wrap up and turn in the quest.
My prediction for fun. I think we travel back to Elpis before Endwalker incident happen, in time Themis(Elidibus) and Eric(Lahabrea) still not join convocation, They suppose to be bestie, maybe we can Emmerololth in future wings. Themis is in undercover but take order from who's own Elidibus title in that time, after This questline end, Elidibus should retire and give Themis name to convocation. (like Fandaniel) The Convocation members is common knowledge for Ancient, I don't know about Themis is Elidibus in this quest, but it's can make sense If writer say so. If I remember right we use blue mysterious crystal to active time portal back to Elpis again, not help from Elidibus like in MSQ, So it can have chance to be different time but not after Endwalker incident(because Volcano Eruption mentioned by Hytholo, and Emet seem ready know that, of cause Elidibus(Themis) told him like in short story). about owner of mysterious blue crystal is Lahabrea(Eric's Father) make that but it's not complete(missing Constelations sign), this is very hard to guess its can be Athena, Eric's Father or Eric himself. It's would be dark if story end up with Eric dead and Lahabrea wear his son mask. Welp, just predict LOL
Based on the official poster for 6.2, I have something to add: No, Erichthonios is not our Lahabrea. Hephaestus is. Erichthonios is actually bad at casting, and Lahabrea was a master sorcerer. Something will happen at the next tiers that will explain why the cold and inexpressible Hephaestus turned into a vicious and careless warrior, as described by Emet during his time as Solus. Maybe Erichthonios was part of the sacrifice for Zodiark? And I believe it can a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde thing. In the official poster for 6.2, Hephaestus is shown in the front with someone directly beneath him, both men with the same red eye, but the bottom one is surrounded by shadows with eyes and tentacles like in a Lovecraftian fashion. Maybe Lahabrea made or found something that is corrupting people. Maybe it's the Heart of Sabik. Sabik is a binary star system located at the Ophiuchus constellation, associated with the god Asclepius as the Serpent-Bearer. Maybe it's a reference of something lurking and hidden within Pandaemonium. And maybe Athena is Igeyhorm somehow? Erichthonios has both Fire and Ice spells. We know Fire comes from Lahabrea but what about the Ice? The only Ascian we see using Ice as a main element is Igeyhorm. Plus, Ascians only merge into Ascian Primes if they share a strong bond like Mitron and Loghrif. Besides these two, the only Ascian Prime we saw was Lahabrea and Igeyhorm...
Sorry for separated posts, I would speculate that the soul that was merged with the Phoenix would be one that had done wrong to Athena (instead of Athena's own soul). I would expect only small child (yes Hageren) do reckless things without prior thorough experiments with their beloved ones. (Not that I approve of these reckless things though!)
Also fun fact Ericthonios is an ancient king of Greece borne out of Athena's discarded garment and Hephaestus' sweat or seminal fluids, depending on the story. the same Ericthonios has a disability, just like xiv's Ericthonios, born with insufficient aether to use Interment Magicks. Both Erics have made something significant strides in overcoming their disabilities, whether pioneering a more efficient chariot which eventually merited them a seat in the stars* (it is said that the constellation Auriga is referring to Ericthonios inventing and using a more powerful chariot to overcome his disability), or augmenting their insufficiency by supplementing with another with what's lacking to cast the said magicks. *this would be literally taken into context that xiv Eric would become the next Lahabrea due to this part of irl mythos
Themis is 100% Elidibus, its the same voice actor, and he's already stepped down from the title of Elidibus hence the white robes and using his real name. I was kinda surprised they didn't mention it in the quest line for the first tier it was so obviously, and I'm really hoping they aren't holding back the reveal until the end and treat it like it's some kind of surprise. Even if the Pandaemonium scenes aren't voiced, our character would recognize the voice same as we did in the MSQ tease and be able to piece two and two together given all they know about both the ancients and Elidibus.
I'm confused. Why does it follow that the events in Pandaemoneum are probably happening before the events in Elpis with Venat and Hermes? At 2:07 you make it sound like it's because Themis is a younger Elidibus, but I don't really get what that has to do with when Pandaemoneum takes place. Can you clarify what you meant?
Sure! Elidibus tells us in the Crystal Tower that he saw us, the WoL, in Elpis long ago. But we never encounter him during the MSQ. So how did he know we were around? It’s possible he meant in passing but I don’t think they’d add that line in without it being more meaningful. Also during the Elpis MSQ they alluded to the short story with Azem and the grapes, in which he was already Elidibus. So if this happens after MSQ, he should already be Elidibus. But he’s using his true name and a non convocation mask. So this leaves the only real possibility that he’s undercover if it happens after MSQ.
@@StoutHelm Right, ok. I think I follow what you're saying. I'm not familiar with the short story; I'll have to check that out later. But it still sounds like more of a guess than a probable situation. Really, the possibilities are endless when the story involves time travel. I feel like there's going to be some truly mind-blowing reveals at the end of the raid that ties it all together. Whether it ends up that we're before or after the MSQ, I bet the writers are going to do a great job with the entire arc. Looking forward to 6.2 and beyond! :)
I feel like the justification here for these events preceding the MSQ visit to Elpis is rather thin. I’m not sure how much younger Elidibus is supposed to be, as he’s a bit of a short guy.
How do we know that the current Lahabrea during pandemonium? It’s a title after all. Ericthonios could be the next Lahabrea and the one we dealt with in the present.
I don't think we will see ANY Ascion again never mind Lahabrea. Endwalker put an end to that storyline and I would much rather and think the devs will focus on a new story. They are done it's time to move on.
But he's talking about him 12,000 years after the Sundering. Why wouldn't his opinion on Lahabrea change and/or worsen just as Erichthonios could gradually change from the person he is when the world was whole? Emet-Selch certainly changed from who he was before the Sundering, into someone he himself doesn't like. That's one of the core tragedies and hypocrisy of the Ascians; they, even the unsundered, are *almost nothing* like who they were as the Convocation and Amaurotines. The point is, it makes sense, we just have to take into account the context of over ten millennia's worth of soul-shattering Hell (anguish, frustration, despair, longing, devotion, disappointment, their work, etc.) and getting accustomed to it all.
One thing I'll point out-- Ericthonios looks REMARKABLY similar to the professor that initially asks you to go into Pandemonium, and I doubt that's a coincidence.
I hadn't paid a ton of attention to the researcher until you pointed this out. No way that's just a coincidence. Super interesting.
@@StoutHelm Right? I forget what SPECIFICALLY it is that he's researching as well, but I wouldn't doubt that is ALSO relevant to what is to come. Only time will tell, I suppose
Now you mentioned yeah they are both has dark skin and blond hair like those kuro-gal chick.
Holy shit that's a really good point and I never noticed that. I think you're right and that will definitely be coming up again later.
I believe he an reincarnation of Ericthonios, similar to Gaia from the Eden raids.
Something to notice, is that, if you look at the model of the first boss, Erichtonios, in pandaemonium, you can literally see the mask of the Lahabrea we know of, on top of his head, adding more creedance to the theory that Erichtonios will end up as the seat of Lahabrea.
This is true, mask is right on top. I’m not entirely convinced that’s what will happen just yet but it’s worth mentioning for sure.
@@StoutHelm my personal theory is that the "current" lahabrea is trying to bring back Athena to life, partially explaining the fact that 2 of the raid bosses so far are themed after death/rebirth (a vampire and a phoenix). And that the last boss of the Last tier might be Lahabrea in his transformed form. After which defeat Erichtonios might take his father's seat in the convocation
@@yendilgames2844 well that theory is now a fact.
I'm making a prediction: in pandemonium we are helping two ascian overlords deal with the chain of events that gave them their seats as Elidibus and Lahabrea
Very very possible.
I think the current Lahabrea mentioned is probably the same Lahabrea we know and love, but I do like the theory
I'm about 80 to 90% certain that Erichthonios is one of the ones who helped Venat summon Hydaelyn and the one that she used to create the Watcher on the Moon. Also, the "love" between Haphaestus and Athena in Greek Mythology struck me as being *decidedly* one-sided and not what we would call "soulmates", which is more reciprocal. That would also track with what we have in-game as Athena surrendered her life when she felt that she had completed her duty. There are no indications that she was killed "before her time", so to speak, except for Lahabrea's refusal to mourn her and his hyperfixation on his work and resurrection magics.
Impressive, you accurately predicted Lahabrea's true name!
Regarding Azem, I am guessing that as the echo gives different abilities to different people in the future, it's likely the same in the ancient world. We know that Venat reached out to Azem for help with summoning Hydaelyn and received no reply. They also walked away from the convocation. My guess is that Azem possesses abilities similar to Mide, the ability to see glimpses of the future. They knew they had a role to play and it was through inaction in the past. They couldn't act against the convocation as it would endanger a very important friendship with Hades so they just had to walk away and ensure that they were in a position to be sundered.
I wouldn't be surprised if we find out that Lahabrea is actively involved in the problems in Pandaemonium and we end up fighting him in the end. Erichthonios, being the last person in the facility that is still on task, he could be elevated to fill the seat and become the Lahabrea that we know.
Something I find interesting in the Asphodelos Raids is the fact that the two creatures we fight do have some very interesting abilities that can be used to cheat death. Hippokampos can regrow its head and Phoinix is using necromancy to resurrect the four little birds we killed ( even though the resurrection was quite flawed ).
Also Erich is a very interesting character. His boss fight doesn't really fit with what he told us until now. Very bad with any magic other than chain magic? Sure, overwhelm us with ice and fire, seperated by dark fire and fire fucking true holy at us...Also transforming the area in Pandaemonium? Even though its stated that only the key warden should be able to do it ( and very likely the chief key warden ). And then there is the fact that his transformation has Lahabreas mask on it. In a society where normal people wear normal masks and the unique masks of the convocation are their way of identifying who is who on the convocation, the only one who should have Lahabreas mask on his body should be Lahabrea himself. Otherwise it would be impersonation of a governmental figure... There is no reason for this mask to be on Erichs body, transformation or not. Guy is fishy as fuck and there is much more to him than we know right now.
Worth noting, and I think it will be relevant in Abyssos, Athena was also a master weaver, the way Hephestus was a master blacksmith.
Excellent point. Im confident we’ll get some answers in the next section.
I just hope we get to fight a prototype of Zodiark. We know the one who came up with the concept of Zodiark is lahabrea and it’s possible he created a prototype in order to try to revive Athena. Well, that and I just think the Zodiark trial was underwhelming and I’d love to see that fight turned up to 11
I hadn’t considered this but that would be HEAT!-
Why would a prototype be any better than the final product, sundered or not? Wouldn't it simply be what Eden's Verse: Refulgence was to Hydaelyn? Or I guess it might be as strong as Zodiark was when we fought him, sundered as he was.
@@crazy13alex Recall that the Zodiark we fought on Mare Lamentorum is effectively 1/2 of the true Zodiark, released from his confinement early solely for the purpose of being killed. It would make sense, then, that a hypothetical Proto-Zodiark would be at least on par with that. I have a feeling, though, that the Ancients were capable of foresight regarding the amount of power that a being of such massive aether costs would need. As such, I feel like if there is a Proto-Zodiark in Tartaros, it would be something closer to the original, full-power primal.
Or it could do what Eden did and crank any references it has to 11 in the last tier. We'll have to see- I'm excited, either way.
One interesting thing is that we have a very short voiced cutscene at the end of the endwalker msq that acts as a teaser for pandaemonium. We see a figure (who we can’t see the full face of but is clearly themis based on his hair) and he’s voiced by the same voice as Elidibus was in shadowbringers patch content. So I think it’s safe to say they’re definitely the same person, whether he has the seat yet or not!
Great point! He’s definitely the Elidibus we know.
It wasn't mentioned, but Themis is all but certainly Elidibus. In the 6.0 post-credits cutscene raid teaser, Elidibus' VA is used to voice Themis. Unless it's a massive fake out, but that seems unlikely. Also I predict that the person Elidibus swore to (that he no longer remembers) is us, and we'll see him swear to us in the final tier, probably the final cutscene from Elpis.
Good point that I didn't bring up. Same voice actor is a dead giveaway.
he said he saw us in elpis but he couldnt fully remember, during the msq we didnt meet anyone that could have been him though so its themis for sure
@@kiameiluvbot ''And a truth that fills my heart'' line and him being willing to sacrifice himself to send us into Elpis starts making more and more sense, no?
Themis also bears resemblance facially to the Warrior of Light Elidibus we face in shb.
Thanks for the reminder before the patch :)
Some good theorycraft as well. I never thought of Athena being Phoenix, that's a cool theory I can subscribe to!
It’s easy to forget when you’ve been smashing through the content week after week. 🤣
By the way, Themis already is Elidibus. There’s optional dialogue in Elpis where someone (I forget who) explains that the only people permitted to wear white are retired convocation members like Venat and he who holds the seat of Elidibus.
While that is true about the robes, that leads to the question of why is going by his original name, and why isn’t he sporting the correct colored mask?
@@StoutHelm He stated he was kinda working undercover so it might explain that
Not entirely true, he said the white robe means they are an impartial and trustable advisor.
Elidibus is viewed as one because he is the emissary it is his job to be impartial and handle disputes, Venat because she retired from the convocation and chose to stick around (although saying shes "impartial" is a bit of a stretch).
Im sure it is entirely possible to be seen as an impartial advisor and not be an ex-member of the convocation or be Elidibus, and its also entirely possible that he is an ex-convocation member of a different seat (although ofcourse he seems a bit on the younger side). Infact if he was already seen as an impartial advisor it would be even easier for him to be elected to the seat of Elidibus
“So pray tell me, what’s my name?” said Themis.
“You are Themis” answered Lahabrea after giving him a quick look.
“Indeed, and you are certainly not Lahabrea or you would call me not with my true name. The true Lahabrea would call me Elidubus”.
From 6.2 patch.
Yeah, something of that xD.
Love the idea that Athena's part may yet be finished! However, I'd like to point out that according to the short story, it was during the examination in Amaurot when the drifting soul emerged with Phoenix, thus Hythlodaeus called it an accident. I don't think it was Athena, but I'd love to meet Athena in other forms in future circles.
And another small but interesting detail is that during one cutscene (MSQ The Wheel Turns) in the Chinese version, Emet referred to Lahabrea as “老爷子, the old man". I'm not sure whether it was canon or the translation team just made that up, and sadly I don't understand Japanese so I can't verify that. Should it be canon, then it indicates that the Lahabrea we met is older than Emet and less likely to be Ericthonios. Plus Emet thought of Lahabrea as fire just like his creation when he was told that Lahabrea had gone (Ere Our Curtain Falls). So I tend to believe Lahabrea has been the same person all along, and Ericthonios would be in charge of Pandaemonium in the end.
Can't wait for more Pandaemonium content! And thanks for the video!
All valid info, thanks for dropping it. I too think it's too easy for Eric to be our Lahabrea.
Emet-Selch does indeed use 'old man' (あの爺さん) to refer to Lahabrea in that quest in JP as well (also ラハブレアの爺さん) in the 'Ere Our Curtain Falls' short story). Not discounting the possibility of shenanigans down the line, but definitely one of the things that has me most dubious of the 'Erichthonios is the Lahabrea we knew' theory as things are now.
Hesperos might be the first ever recorded case of tempering before the world was sundered .....its a theory ive been thinking on cuz his condition isnt too far removed from tempering cases like the heavens'ward who were confirmed in an interview with koji fox iirc that they were tempered by Thordan but not to the severe extent other primals temper their subjects as they still retain their personalities.
If Zodiark was created or concieved as a concept inside pandaemonium,maybe hesperos was the first subject lahabrea used to test tempering and how it affects a victim
Themis is definitely Elidibus because the Warrior of Light looks just like him and his big LB4.
*SPOILERS*
6:53 You were right! Although they spelt it as Hephaestos.
One of the few times my theories have been close! Haha
Honestly the thing I am most excited for is an FF14 version of the FF2 Pandaemonium theme.
Athena - Goddess of Enlightenment, Reason. Athens , home of philosophy and rhetoric. Igeyorhm the seat on the Convocation for enlightenment and rhetoric.. Works with Lahabrea, fuses into Ascian Prime (Something we've only seen the lovers Mitron and Logriff do besides). In Both their battle, and in Hades Ex, Laha and Iggy use fire and ice attacks respectively. Erichthonios' whole battle is Fire & Ice Based. :)
But she was dead by the time of the events of Pandæmonium so I’m not sure how she could be the Igeyorhm we encountered because she can’t have been sundered.
Unless they do find a way to bring her back, or maybe she wasn’t entirely dead? I know that’s just wild speculation. But that’s the fun part
I’m not convinced quite yet Ericthonios is our Lahabrea at this point in time. Mainly due to how poor his skill is with any magics other than warding magic. The seat itself is not exactly going to be passed down if the holder is not considered appropriate or one best suited for the role, which Ericthonios is not at this time. I do suspect we will get our answer the further we go into the raids.
I'm not super convinced of this yet either. It's almost too easy? I feel like they will subvert our expectations a little bit.
How could he be? Lahabrea is an unsundered, there was no chance for reincarnation. So the one we killed is the only Lahabrea that's existed since the sundering.
@@RemiusTheAwesome There's a substantial amount of time that passes between the elpis/pandaemonium we visit, and the sundering.
@Fusajiro The Phoinix is a prototype. An imperfect iteration of the concept.
@@RemiusTheAwesome Yes. That’s why I think the Lahabrea we know from our time was the one still holding the seat before and after the sundering. There’s a theory that Ericthonios became the next Lahabrea, but I do not believe that theory without more concrete proof.
Athena was also the assosciated with peace and handicrafts mainly spinning and weaving this is portrayed in the myth of Arachne.
AAAAAAAAA I've been waiting for this one thank you so much! Great video!
I had no idea y’all wanted this one so bad I’m really glad I got it done for you guys!
I think someone successfully create the real 1st primal (Zodiark prototype?) in there and get tempered by them.
The reason everyone get weird because the get tempered by that primal.
Tempering is definitely possible!!
i suspect the lahabrea they are talking about is not our lahabrea but Ericthonios could be the future lahabrea we know since we read in the game from elidibus memories that lahabrea was a chill guy always looking at the better part of life "...gaze outside the window my friend. The rains have ceased, and we have been graced with another beautiful day" those are lahabrea words. also lahabrea and elidibus were friends
So that begs the question of how Ericthonios got better at magic worthy enough for the position? You need to have the skills needed to hold the seat and so far he doesn’t.
@@acgearsandarms1343 I'm thinking that erichthonios will earn the seat of the speaker (lahabrea) through his accomplishment rather than any particular powerup. His accomplishment being stopping his father, the current lahabrea In pandemonium. Not to mention erichthonios talks about not understanding how somebody could become so disconnected and bitter like hesperos, which is ironic considering it's exactly what happened to our version of lahabrea in the centuries since the sundering.
@@APorter0130 Interesting thought. However the lack of magic talent still worries me because when we meet Lahabrea in our time, he’s still a mage of great power despite being technically weakened from constant body hopping. So there’s still a gap of disconnect that needs answers.
Members of the convocation seem to tap replacements often. Usually their own replacement but... if we kill the Lahabrea in Pandemonium, then he cannot put forth his ideal successor. I suspect it will be Elidibus that suggests Ericthonios take the seat, given his knowledge of Pandemonium and his warding power. I also suspect the WoL's role will be kept to a minimum when spoken of, so it is also likely WoL's achievements are instead said to be Eric's, which can lead to him having a huge imposter's complex. Which could play into our current Lahabrea's issues - the man both always questioned his abilities, had to grow in strength over time after the Sundering to get where he was (but also only so far as we could defeat him and then Thordin could absorb him - Emet is on another level compared to Lahabrea even in our story!), and also had to live with the guilt that his best friend becoming the Heart of Zodiark had effectively changed him and put a great burden on him. He sacrificed his best friend and now must not only stick with the cause to honor that sacrifice, but also be More Ascian than Ascian to make up for any shortcomings in ability.
His "weakness" in ability might not also be totally true - something could be holding him back that we will discover in the raid series, either Athena trying to protect him or something else he doesn't even realize. In the myth I know of, Haphaestus was obsessed with Athena and he tried to very much do something non-consensual with her. She escaped, and his... erm... missed shot was thrown on the soil, creating Ericthonios. She then chose to adopt the kid and raise him and after time passes we get the founding of Athens. I suspect while Eric will be their kid, he will find out he was a creation of sorts as well (a very Sephiroth finding out about Jenova thing). This will be how he unlocks any further potential he has (perhaps being a creation he needed to look at learning/using magic from a different angle), but the path to our crazy Lahabrea might make more sense if he felt he was even "less" Ascian for being a creation that, while decidedly like the Ancients, in his mind only so much better than a simulacrum. And then wonder if he even deserved the seat of Lahabrea, if it was just given to save face from his father's actions. Even if Elidibus and Emet didn't see it that way, he might have.
I wonder if Themis is the son or a relative of Venat. They both have white hair and blue eyes. It is likely Elidibus’ death likely freed Fandaniel from being tempered by Zodiark since Elidibus was Zodiark’s heart. There is another possibility that Venat trusted what she learned from the Warrior of Light to Azem. This likely allowed the Warrior of Light’s excuse as Azem’s familiar to not be suspected.
I'm not sure why it would need to be before the events of Elpis, IMO it would be VERY easy to account for Venat and Azem in a much more straightforward fashion. All that Venat would have to do is explain the cycle of future history to Azem, that Azem (sundered) would eventually be (partly) reincarnated as the WOL and be responsible for the redemption and salvation of all life and that all she/he had to do was accept the sundering. Azem would be kind enough and open minded enough to follow and work with this logic because they know Venat has met their future self and both Venat and Azem are both about the greater good and helping people.
Any foresight possessed/demonstrated by Azem after the events of Elpis would simply be he/she catching glimpses of their own future history and helping the timeline along. In regards to Azem generally I don't think we need to think in overly complex terms because their storyline and passage through history can just as easily be explained in simple terms, Occam's Razor it.
Themis is obviously Elidibus, when Elidibus sent you to elpis, he says that he remember seeing you there.
I'm going to bet that we will fight a monster called Sabik and he will have the ultima spell.
Yoooo I would love to finally get an answer for this. That would be fantastic
I am pretty sure they are the Elidibus and Lahabrea we know though they haven't taken their seats yet.
one possibility is that Erik in some fashion inspires the Phoenix that we know in game, the one Louisoux became. Another, possibly sadder bit, is that Themis begins to look up to the WoL in the same way he does Azem, to the point that WE are what inspires his form in the Seat of Sacrifice. as he said 'an impossibility, and a truth that warms my heart.'
Hesperos is such a snack though. Mmmmm
Have you done videos on the different FFXIV player race choices? Like the histories of each race and their 2 tribes, especially about Viera (we all remember the male Viera discourse and why they “shouldn’t” exist, and how this was the same case with Mi’qote, blah blah blah) If you haven’t, I would enjoy these topics!
I haven't but I do like this suggestion. I'll add it to my big list.
Okay so I've only done the first wing but I have serious issues with Pandaemonium being placed before the events of Elpis. For one it raises huge questions about how the gateway works, but I also assumed that the reason Emet was begrudgingly willing to let us tag along was because the idea of a concerted, shadowy attempt to actively subvert the status quo was basically unheard of at that point
Themis is certainly already Elidibus in this Pandaemonium quest. Evidence being him in white robe, which is indicative of the wearer either being in office of Elidibus or a retired convocation member (during this time Venat is the only one).
The white robes are meant to symbolize neutrality, and while Elidibus is one of two people we’ve ever seen in one, it’s still possible he’s not in the seat yet. If he was trying to stay undercover wouldn’t the white robe of the emissary be a dead giveaway that he’s important? I could be wrong but that’s my line of thinking.
Let's also remember that Lahabrea made the original concept of Ifrit, who is also a major fire elemental :3
So I'm working on P5S and something to note. P2 and P5 feature arenas that appear to be parts of Uldah. With P2 appearing to be the sewers we traveled through in the end of ARR, and P5 appears to be Aurum Vale if someone dropped a mountain on it.
I also have a theory about why they were after Eric, but I don't know if I should type it here.
Your Channel is amazing dude. I have so many ideas for what I’d love you to cover but since you do such a great job with characters, maybe Fordola or Yotsuyu? Apologies if you have done them already, I would just love to see the Stormblood characters get some love
Thank you so much my friend. I'd love to cover both of them, Fordola is one of my favorites. Stormblood does need some love. I'll see if I can get around to one of them after I get my 6.2 coverage wrapped.
AHHHH such great theories! I cant wait!
still i think we get to see where the "Heart of Sabik" comes from , you know the thing in the ultima weapon that houses the spell Ultima.
the center or hub of something.
"this was the omphalos of confusion and strife"
a rounded stone (especially that at Delphi) representing the navel of the earth in ancient Greek mythology.
So maybe we see them again thw words for the raid are greek has well
great video as always
Thank you homie.
Such an interesting theory video! I wonder if Athena is Igeyorhm, the female Ascian who became one with Lahabrea during a fight in Heavensward?
Not likely. Igeyorhm is a different person altogether. Their seat is responsible for enlightenment and rhetoric. So I would say persuasive speaking and writing disseminated to the public. Athena was dead long before the Sundering ever happened, so it can’t have been her nor do I find her a candidate if she was former head keyward.
Unless she’s not truly dead and returns in some capacity at the end of the story. It’s a long shot but who knows.
And thank you @alannacrystal !
Something kind of interesting is that, in Hades' extreme fight, when the shades of Lahabrea and Igeyorhm form ascian prime, Emet remarks about them "finally being together again"
It could just be that Lahabrea got around, but that'd be a hell of a way to weave in Lahabrea and Igeyorhm's..thing?
@@depotagents Maybe. I’m not sure they’d do another ascians in love story after we already had it in Shadowbringers.
@@depotagents Or Hades was referring to Erichthonios and Igeyorhm being together, not his father who held the seat during Pandemonium.
Initial assumptions when I played the raids when they came out? Ericthonios is going to be the Lahabrea that we face off against in ARR and kill in Heavenward (well, technically Thordan gets that headcount.) Because Lahabrea is just a title on the convocation, we'll face off against daddy Laha by the end of the Pandaemonium series and then it will end with Ericthonios taking his father's place on the convocation by invitation of Themis (Elidibus.) And then our WoL will realize the implications and have a moment of a mini freakout before Eric is like "Hey, you okay? Listen, thanks for your help, blahblahblah, I hope we meet again some day, well met and take care." And then walks away leaving us with an uneasy feeling before we return to the present time to wrap up and turn in the quest.
My prediction for fun.
I think we travel back to Elpis before Endwalker incident happen, in time Themis(Elidibus) and Eric(Lahabrea) still not join convocation, They suppose to be bestie, maybe we can Emmerololth in future wings.
Themis is in undercover but take order from who's own Elidibus title in that time, after This questline end, Elidibus should retire and give Themis name to convocation. (like Fandaniel)
The Convocation members is common knowledge for Ancient, I don't know about Themis is Elidibus in this quest, but it's can make sense If writer say so.
If I remember right we use blue mysterious crystal to active time portal back to Elpis again, not help from Elidibus like in MSQ, So it can have chance to be different time but not after Endwalker incident(because Volcano Eruption mentioned by Hytholo, and Emet seem ready know that, of cause Elidibus(Themis) told him like in short story).
about owner of mysterious blue crystal is Lahabrea(Eric's Father) make that but it's not complete(missing Constelations sign), this is very hard to guess its can be Athena, Eric's Father or Eric himself.
It's would be dark if story end up with Eric dead and Lahabrea wear his son mask.
Welp, just predict LOL
Based on the official poster for 6.2, I have something to add:
No, Erichthonios is not our Lahabrea. Hephaestus is. Erichthonios is actually bad at casting, and Lahabrea was a master sorcerer. Something will happen at the next tiers that will explain why the cold and inexpressible Hephaestus turned into a vicious and careless warrior, as described by Emet during his time as Solus. Maybe Erichthonios was part of the sacrifice for Zodiark?
And I believe it can a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde thing. In the official poster for 6.2, Hephaestus is shown in the front with someone directly beneath him, both men with the same red eye, but the bottom one is surrounded by shadows with eyes and tentacles like in a Lovecraftian fashion. Maybe Lahabrea made or found something that is corrupting people. Maybe it's the Heart of Sabik. Sabik is a binary star system located at the Ophiuchus constellation, associated with the god Asclepius as the Serpent-Bearer. Maybe it's a reference of something lurking and hidden within Pandaemonium.
And maybe Athena is Igeyhorm somehow? Erichthonios has both Fire and Ice spells. We know Fire comes from Lahabrea but what about the Ice? The only Ascian we see using Ice as a main element is Igeyhorm. Plus, Ascians only merge into Ascian Primes if they share a strong bond like Mitron and Loghrif. Besides these two, the only Ascian Prime we saw was Lahabrea and Igeyhorm...
Sorry for separated posts, I would speculate that the soul that was merged with the Phoenix would be one that had done wrong to Athena (instead of Athena's own soul). I would expect only small child (yes Hageren) do reckless things without prior thorough experiments with their beloved ones. (Not that I approve of these reckless things though!)
Been waiting on this one!
Happy to deliver!
Also fun fact Ericthonios is an ancient king of Greece borne out of Athena's discarded garment and Hephaestus' sweat or seminal fluids, depending on the story.
the same Ericthonios has a disability, just like xiv's Ericthonios, born with insufficient aether to use Interment Magicks. Both Erics have made something significant strides in overcoming their disabilities, whether pioneering a more efficient chariot which eventually merited them a seat in the stars* (it is said that the constellation Auriga is referring to Ericthonios inventing and using a more powerful chariot to overcome his disability), or augmenting their insufficiency by supplementing with another with what's lacking to cast the said magicks.
*this would be literally taken into context that xiv Eric would become the next Lahabrea due to this part of irl mythos
Yeah, I didn’t want to go into great detail about the Athena situation because of the body fluids. Haha
But excellent info to add all the same.
I like that we get to Fight a Vampire
Themis is 100% Elidibus, its the same voice actor, and he's already stepped down from the title of Elidibus hence the white robes and using his real name. I was kinda surprised they didn't mention it in the quest line for the first tier it was so obviously, and I'm really hoping they aren't holding back the reveal until the end and treat it like it's some kind of surprise. Even if the Pandaemonium scenes aren't voiced, our character would recognize the voice same as we did in the MSQ tease and be able to piece two and two together given all they know about both the ancients and Elidibus.
You think he’s stepped down? So he eventually takes the seat back in your mind?
You were right :D
The one with the white hair is Elidibus.
personally they be future elidibus and lahabrea
There’s some extra pieces to consider too as far as the ascian chess board. I’m ready for more.
I'm confused. Why does it follow that the events in Pandaemoneum are probably happening before the events in Elpis with Venat and Hermes? At 2:07 you make it sound like it's because Themis is a younger Elidibus, but I don't really get what that has to do with when Pandaemoneum takes place. Can you clarify what you meant?
Sure! Elidibus tells us in the Crystal Tower that he saw us, the WoL, in Elpis long ago. But we never encounter him during the MSQ. So how did he know we were around? It’s possible he meant in passing but I don’t think they’d add that line in without it being more meaningful.
Also during the Elpis MSQ they alluded to the short story with Azem and the grapes, in which he was already Elidibus. So if this happens after MSQ, he should already be Elidibus. But he’s using his true name and a non convocation mask. So this leaves the only real possibility that he’s undercover if it happens after MSQ.
@@StoutHelm Right, ok. I think I follow what you're saying. I'm not familiar with the short story; I'll have to check that out later. But it still sounds like more of a guess than a probable situation. Really, the possibilities are endless when the story involves time travel. I feel like there's going to be some truly mind-blowing reveals at the end of the raid that ties it all together. Whether it ends up that we're before or after the MSQ, I bet the writers are going to do a great job with the entire arc. Looking forward to 6.2 and beyond! :)
@@BriGuy77711 oh it’s definitely a guess, and I could be wrong, but it’s fun to speculate!
I feel like the justification here for these events preceding the MSQ visit to Elpis is rather thin. I’m not sure how much younger Elidibus is supposed to be, as he’s a bit of a short guy.
Short guys are real ♡
How do we know that the current Lahabrea during pandemonium? It’s a title after all. Ericthonios could be the next Lahabrea and the one we dealt with in the present.
We don’t have confirmation of that, no. But there are clues, like other ascians referring to Lahabrea as “the old man.” But who knows.
I don't think we will see ANY Ascion again never mind Lahabrea. Endwalker put an end to that storyline and I would much rather and think the devs will focus on a new story. They are done it's time to move on.
Hephestis was married to Aphrodite goddess of love and beauty.
I dislike the this is our Lahabrea theory so much. It just doesn’t jive with how Emet-Selch talks about him
I’m not sold on it either, it’s *too* convenient you know what I mean?
But he's talking about him 12,000 years after the Sundering. Why wouldn't his opinion on Lahabrea change and/or worsen just as Erichthonios could gradually change from the person he is when the world was whole? Emet-Selch certainly changed from who he was before the Sundering, into someone he himself doesn't like. That's one of the core tragedies and hypocrisy of the Ascians; they, even the unsundered, are *almost nothing* like who they were as the Convocation and Amaurotines.
The point is, it makes sense, we just have to take into account the context of over ten millennia's worth of soul-shattering Hell (anguish, frustration, despair, longing, devotion, disappointment, their work, etc.) and getting accustomed to it all.
If that true, that means that we are mounting Athena
My guy down bad
@@StoutHelm down horrendous