Because the game is literally a territory game. Knowing how to score territory would mean I would know rhat playing one point to block to left or right than my original move gives me an extra point. Like it's the literal goal of game
This is a long read: forums.online-go.com/t/what-are-the-differences-between-japanese-chinese-new-zealand-rules/23243 This is the one I was actually looking for: senseis.xmp.net/?LogicalProofOfTheEquivalenceOfTerritoryAndAreaScoring TLDR: Seems like everyone says oh so similar, but if you take a look at the second link, there are lots of assumptions that are required to make the scoring the same. Basically the list of assumptions you can take as the difference. The longer article iterates on some of the ko rule differences that happen extremely rarely but make for an interesting read.
Thank you. Of all the aspects of Go, scoring at the end is what discourages me the most from playing. It is definitely easier watching this explanation, good, and some of the reasons why are explained. I know there are differences in other countries like Japan, China, Korea, and these would be good to talk about as well, since these are the countries most people who know about the game would think have the most widely-used rules.
@3:00 shouldn't you point out (for beginners) *_precisely_*_ why_ playing those dead stone moves does not help either player? White may think they are reducing Black territory, but the captured dead stones cancel out (balance) that reduction exactly, stone-for-stone.
Can you explain why we remove that dead stone, and add it to prisoner, 5 points + 1 prisoner . As i see, if black captures it, back has 4 point + 1 prisoner.
If black captured that dead stone, they would lose one of their own territory but they gain one territory from the space the dead stone was in plus one for capturing the piece right? So why would black not want to capture the stone?
It doesn't matter what rules are used for calculating the results. As long as same rules are followed for both players, result would be the same in every method. Placing dead stones in opponents territory is a bad play, so it should be penalized. As a standard, game uses 1 point for everything. 👍
Why does AGA force neutral point filling if they are using territory scoring rather than area? And what is with the weird "white must play last" and triple passing?
Again, AGA is using a score determined strictly by area scoring, but promoting territory counting as a convenient (and popular) method to achieve it. Thus the pass stones. Filling in neutral territory also goes to that goal, since the neutral territory remaining is either odd or even, thus it determines whether there are three passes to end the game vs two, thus determining whether white must pass an extra prisoner to black for the equivalence of counting methods to be perfect.
Hm! Apparently I don't understand as much as I thought. Since I'm still such a novice, it's not always clear to me when stones are dead and what territory is whose. (I know that you can play on to figure out any contested stones, but I was trying to calculate for a historical game to see if I was right - and I wasn't even close lol)
Just keep playing . You'll begin to see where the edges of black and white meet . I look for cutting points , both mine and my opponent's. Then I look to see if that is a tiger's mouth. If so that spot does not need to be filled. When there are no more cutting points and placing stones only gets you killed it's time to count. Good luck
Thanks for the video. I'm new to Go, but I'm not understanding this idea of removing the 'dead' stones. The first white stone that you call dead seems alive to me because If I were playing as white, I think I'd try to cut off the liberties of the black group in that top corner. What am I missing? Thanks
It was at this point I realized I have no idea how to play this game. I must have been playing with different rules. Idk which at but different rules for sure.
Question! I’m new and just curious but how come the white group in the bottom left corner isn’t removed when dead stones are removed? Does having the one eye mean that whites shape is safe? Just trying to figure this out as I ran into a similar situation when trying to practice the game with my wife! Great video too! Helped clear up so much for me!
An empty point on the board belongs to a particular player if and only if there is a path from that point to a stone of that player's colour, but not the opponent's colour. If paths exist to both colours, that point on the board is neutral (" in _dame_ ").
I see, so under AGA rules white would benefit from having the last useful move on the board. It would be difficult to produce that outcome intentionally however so it's a bit of a toss up whether white will enjoy the advantage of a 7.5 komi or whether they will have the disadvantage of an effective komi of 6.5.
forget how it finishes. If both players pass, game's over. Just make sure all neutral spaces are filled before ending. your opponent's dead stones count toward your kill pool. Fill up your opponent's territory with the stones you killed, and vice versa. The spaces that are left after both players have filled the board with the captured stones get tallied up for the final score.
with this method of counting, the captured stones are replaced inside the opponents territory, thus subtracting that number from their final score. It works the same way as not adding the captured stones and then subtracting the number after counting the territory :)
@@RemyBGK subtracting physically that's pretty smart subtraction be hard so do it this way and only add points up lol that's very American way of doing it
If I'm not mistaken, the Komi (extra points given to white to compensate for him moving 2nd) is agreed upon before the game starts. Some people play with no Komi even.
So it's necessary to give your own stone once you are passing? Or does it concern ONLY last passes directly before game is over - so if white passes first and then black follows by white again or the second possibility - black passes then white ending the game. I'm asking because I experienced my enemy trying to attack what I considered safe territory after I passed as white. It forced me to react then black made a move on the board again but I noticed that he won't be able to create 2 eyes therefore I passed again. Black eventually realised it's over and passed so did I. So does it mean I gave 3 stones as white JUST by passing when black gave only 1?
Redi Rodion everytime you pass, you give a stone. Everytime your opponent made a move in your territory you gave him a stone, he gave you one with his failed attempt to live. (just as well answer since it will not change the score) in the end of the game you could play in your own territory instead of passing and lose no points as long as your opponent gives you a stone by passes(or playing in your area that gets capture in end of game, or plays in his. What ever one of the three options he takes hi end up with a stone in his territory). AGA is really area scoring using territory counting. In area scoring you get a point for every stone left on the board. Captures are not counted. (Think about it, if you get a point for every stone on board and you have hissing ones, then you have less points at end of the game.) AGA makes white pass last everytime. That way when you take captures and fill everything in, back and white have the same amount points. Then you just count the open area that are your territory points. In Japanese rules, you get more points if you’re passing and your opponent keeps playing dead stones. AGA you can get points for seki, as Japanese rules, you don’t get any. Well that was long winded. Hope it helped or if not you, someone else.
Your comment is misleading. Japanese rule counts empty territory controlled and captured stones. Chinese rule counts your stones in play + the territory they control.
These are AGA rules. Very similar to Chinese in terms of the actual end score, but very Japanese-like in terms of the counting method. The counting method fools people into thinking it is somehow Japanese. But AGA is synchronizing the counting methods with their rules. In fact the explanation Stephanie gave of why not to capture the lone white stone was actually incorrect, since it makes no difference to the score under Chinese or AGA rules at all. (However it is a silly move, and certainly should not be made if there are an odd number of neutral spaces left over to fill.
I am new to go. From what I am reading, Japanese Komi is 6.5 and Chinese is 7.5. But in this video it seems like you use Japanese scoring system, but use the Chinese 7.5 komi number. Is there a reason for this?
The trouble is that if you go far enough back, people just filled the whole board and counted stones. Eventually someone realized that there comes a point where you can predict exactly how the "rest of the game" will go because it's already been decided, and chose to stop there to save time. Then they started removing stones that would be captured if you continued playing. It's something that's only intuitive if you've already played a bunch, because _at that point_ you'll pretty much agree on everything except weird edge cases, which is where official Japanese / Chinese / AGA rules come in. The fact that people _learn to play Go_ like this is cursed as hell.
db richardson if you make a one point eye in the seki group, you’ll get a point for it. So any liberties not shared that person gets the points as if it’s not seki. AGA is different then Japanese rules on seki and bent four in the corner.
I'm just trying to learn enough to be able to play my first game (with my wife who also does not know how to play) and after getting 3/4 of the way through this, I am thoroughly confused. Her first two video were helpful at learning some basics, however, although it's obvious that English is not her first language. Thus, it became difficult to tell if she was saying something was "illegal move" or "a legal move". Hoping that by trying enough youtube videos I can eventually figure out how to score this game, but it is very confusing. I think I need to actually play with an experienced player who can answer questions as we go, but that's hard to find.
Traditionally, before komi, black usually won. They introduced komi of like 4 points about a hundred years ago, and found that it evened the game up somewhat, but not quite. After analyzing thousands of pro games over the last century, go organizations have agreed that a komi of like 5-8 is about right for evening the winrate. Different go organizations have different komi values. 5.5, 6.5, 7.5, etc.
AGA rules allow you to use both territory and area counting methods. Pass stones and the requirement for white to pass last actually ensure that territory counting will give the same result. Most people playing by AGA rules count territory just because it's easier but AGA is considered an area scoring ruleset because game results would be the same as with area counting but different from territory counting without pass stones.
I think that learning how to count the points is more important to a new player than strategies.
why?
@@qwerty1516 It’s hard to plan ahead when you have no goal.
Because the game is literally a territory game. Knowing how to score territory would mean I would know rhat playing one point to block to left or right than my original move gives me an extra point. Like it's the literal goal of game
Indeed
I'm a new player and I have already had some disapointment at the end of my few games.
I would absolutely agreed.
It would be interesting to have a video on the differences between chinese rules, ag rules, japanese rules etc.
This is a long read:
forums.online-go.com/t/what-are-the-differences-between-japanese-chinese-new-zealand-rules/23243
This is the one I was actually looking for:
senseis.xmp.net/?LogicalProofOfTheEquivalenceOfTerritoryAndAreaScoring
TLDR: Seems like everyone says oh so similar, but if you take a look at the second link, there are lots of assumptions that are required to make the scoring the same. Basically the list of assumptions you can take as the difference. The longer article iterates on some of the ko rule differences that happen extremely rarely but make for an interesting read.
Thats basically the japanese rules.
Thank you. Of all the aspects of Go, scoring at the end is what discourages me the most from playing. It is definitely easier watching this explanation, good, and some of the reasons why are explained. I know there are differences in other countries like Japan, China, Korea, and these would be good to talk about as well, since these are the countries most people who know about the game would think have the most widely-used rules.
New Go player here, thanks for the clear explanations.
Very clear, well explained.
black: 14 points (territory)
white: 21 points (territory) + 7.5 points (komi)
= 28.5 points
result: white wins by 28.5 (white) - 14 (black) = 14.5 points
my man
@3:00 shouldn't you point out (for beginners) *_precisely_*_ why_ playing those dead stone moves does not help either player? White may think they are reducing Black territory, but the captured dead stones cancel out (balance) that reduction exactly, stone-for-stone.
Can you explain why we remove that dead stone, and add it to prisoner, 5 points + 1 prisoner . As i see, if black captures it, back has 4 point + 1 prisoner.
If black captured that dead stone, they would lose one of their own territory but they gain one territory from the space the dead stone was in plus one for capturing the piece right? So why would black not want to capture the stone?
It doesn't matter what rules are used for calculating the results. As long as same rules are followed for both players, result would be the same in every method.
Placing dead stones in opponents territory is a bad play, so it should be penalized.
As a standard, game uses 1 point for everything. 👍
Why does AGA force neutral point filling if they are using territory scoring rather than area? And what is with the weird "white must play last" and triple passing?
Again, AGA is using a score determined strictly by area scoring, but promoting territory counting as a convenient (and popular) method to achieve it. Thus the pass stones. Filling in neutral territory also goes to that goal, since the neutral territory remaining is either odd or even, thus it determines whether there are three passes to end the game vs two, thus determining whether white must pass an extra prisoner to black for the equivalence of counting methods to be perfect.
Thank you! I knew you moved the stones to make them easier to count, but I had no idea how you're supposed to do that.
Hm! Apparently I don't understand as much as I thought. Since I'm still such a novice, it's not always clear to me when stones are dead and what territory is whose. (I know that you can play on to figure out any contested stones, but I was trying to calculate for a historical game to see if I was right - and I wasn't even close lol)
Just keep playing . You'll begin to see where the edges of black and white meet . I look for cutting points , both mine and my opponent's. Then I look to see if that is a tiger's mouth. If so that spot does not need to be filled.
When there are no more cutting points and placing stones only gets you killed it's time to count.
Good luck
Finally I understand. Thank you!
Great video. Where did you get the magnetic Go board?
Thank you I was searching for days how to properly count the territories and scores. The vid enlightened me
I’ve been trying to learn this game for so long but it just doesn’t seem to set. Maybe I’m not cut out for it? But I want to learn lol
Thanks for the video. I'm new to Go, but I'm not understanding this idea of removing the 'dead' stones. The first white stone that you call dead seems alive to me because If I were playing as white, I think I'd try to cut off the liberties of the black group in that top corner. What am I missing? Thanks
It was at this point I realized I have no idea how to play this game. I must have been playing with different rules. Idk which at but different rules for sure.
THANK YOU SO MUCH
Thanks for this wonderful video
Thank you!
Question! I’m new and just curious but how come the white group in the bottom left corner isn’t removed when dead stones are removed? Does having the one eye mean that whites shape is safe? Just trying to figure this out as I ran into a similar situation when trying to practice the game with my wife! Great video too! Helped clear up so much for me!
You can't remove that cuz you will gain 1 territory. It isn't dead. It's only dead if it's in black's territory.
Consu'me
The white group at the bottom left hand corner can easily make two eyes, so they are alive / can't be killed
It isn't dead because at any time it has the ability to make a 2 eyes before black can stop it.
Would be nice to understand when a territory is enclosed or not.
An empty point on the board belongs to a particular player if and only if there is a path from that point to a stone of that player's colour, but not the opponent's colour. If paths exist to both colours, that point on the board is neutral (" in _dame_ ").
I see, so under AGA rules white would benefit from having the last useful move on the board. It would be difficult to produce that outcome intentionally however so it's a bit of a toss up whether white will enjoy the advantage of a 7.5 komi or whether they will have the disadvantage of an effective komi of 6.5.
Clear explanation, thanks
Wow great video thanks
This left me more confused than when I started.
forget how it finishes. If both players pass, game's over. Just make sure all neutral spaces are filled before ending.
your opponent's dead stones count toward your kill pool. Fill up your opponent's territory with the stones you killed, and vice versa.
The spaces that are left after both players have filled the board with the captured stones get tallied up for the final score.
very helpfull video
Great video, but I might need to go back to Checkers Sadge
I dont know why but I’m having such a hard time understanding this game.
Why do both players pass? Wouldn't that be the same as not doing that at all?
You pass when you think there isn't anymore moves you can play. A game ends when both players have no more moves to play
Hi. Wasn't it that you also had to count the stones you captured from your opponent? as i understood here, you only counted the territory
with this method of counting, the captured stones are replaced inside the opponents territory, thus subtracting that number from their final score. It works the same way as not adding the captured stones and then subtracting the number after counting the territory :)
@@RemyBGK subtracting physically that's pretty smart subtraction be hard so do it this way and only add points up lol that's very American way of doing it
do we still add 7.5 to white if the board is 13x13 or 9x9 instead of 19x19?
If I'm not mistaken, the Komi (extra points given to white to compensate for him moving 2nd) is agreed upon before the game starts. Some people play with no Komi even.
those are not standard size game, 7.5 is thought for regular serious 19x19 games. The komi should be smaller for smaller boards.
Thank you all
So it's necessary to give your own stone once you are passing? Or does it concern ONLY last passes directly before game is over - so if white passes first and then black follows by white again or the second possibility - black passes then white ending the game.
I'm asking because I experienced my enemy trying to attack what I considered safe territory after I passed as white. It forced me to react then black made a move on the board again but I noticed that he won't be able to create 2 eyes therefore I passed again. Black eventually realised it's over and passed so did I.
So does it mean I gave 3 stones as white JUST by passing when black gave only 1?
Redi Rodion everytime you pass, you give a stone. Everytime your opponent made a move in your territory you gave him a stone, he gave you one with his failed attempt to live. (just as well answer since it will not change the score) in the end of the game you could play in your own territory instead of passing and lose no points as long as your opponent gives you a stone by passes(or playing in your area that gets capture in end of game, or plays in his. What ever one of the three options he takes hi end up with a stone in his territory).
AGA is really area scoring using territory counting. In area scoring you get a point for every stone left on the board. Captures are not counted. (Think about it, if you get a point for every stone on board and you have hissing ones, then you have less points at end of the game.)
AGA makes white pass last everytime. That way when you take captures and fill everything in, back and white have the same amount points. Then you just count the open area that are your territory points.
In Japanese rules, you get more points if you’re passing and your opponent keeps playing dead stones. AGA you can get points for seki, as Japanese rules, you don’t get any.
Well that was long winded. Hope it helped or if not you, someone else.
Are these Japanese or Chinese rules? What’s the difference? Is there a good video somewhere that explains it? Thanks!
Japanese rules only count the spaces, Chinese rules count the stones + spaces
Thats the japanese rules.
Your comment is misleading. Japanese rule counts empty territory controlled and captured stones. Chinese rule counts your stones in play + the territory they control.
These are AGA rules. Very similar to Chinese in terms of the actual end score, but very Japanese-like in terms of the counting method. The counting method fools people into thinking it is somehow Japanese. But AGA is synchronizing the counting methods with their rules. In fact the explanation Stephanie gave of why not to capture the lone white stone was actually incorrect, since it makes no difference to the score under Chinese or AGA rules at all. (However it is a silly move, and certainly should not be made if there are an odd number of neutral spaces left over to fill.
Wtf counting the game is harder than playing it. There should have been at least a million go counters in china.
so where did she get the 14.5 points or the komi?
the komi is an extra 7.5 points for white at the end of the game, to balance out the advantage that black has with going first
I am new to go. From what I am reading, Japanese Komi is 6.5 and Chinese is 7.5. But in this video it seems like you use Japanese scoring system, but use the Chinese 7.5 komi number. Is there a reason for this?
because white passes last, that's a point relinquished
Filling the neutral points is a part of a game or this is a post game procedure?
It's an end game procedure
@@mikawa1314 still not clear for me, this is a procedure happens AFTER game or at the end of a game (and still the actual game)?
@@DaimondRus It happens just before the end of the game. Once all the neutral points are filled in, that's pretty much when the game ends.
Damn. This game is confusing. I'm yet to watch a video that properly explains how to end the game.
The trouble is that if you go far enough back, people just filled the whole board and counted stones. Eventually someone realized that there comes a point where you can predict exactly how the "rest of the game" will go because it's already been decided, and chose to stop there to save time. Then they started removing stones that would be captured if you continued playing. It's something that's only intuitive if you've already played a bunch, because _at that point_ you'll pretty much agree on everything except weird edge cases, which is where official Japanese / Chinese / AGA rules come in. The fact that people _learn to play Go_ like this is cursed as hell.
good video, but i'm still confused as hell D:
How is seki counted?
Both players taking turns to fill up the neutral spaces, since it's seki. So no territories for those groups
db richardson if you make a one point eye in the seki group, you’ll get a point for it. So any liberties not shared that person gets the points as if it’s not seki. AGA is different then Japanese rules on seki and bent four in the corner.
I'm just trying to learn enough to be able to play my first game (with my wife who also does not know how to play) and after getting 3/4 of the way through this, I am thoroughly confused. Her first two video were helpful at learning some basics, however, although it's obvious that English is not her first language. Thus, it became difficult to tell if she was saying something was "illegal move" or "a legal move". Hoping that by trying enough youtube videos I can eventually figure out how to score this game, but it is very confusing. I think I need to actually play with an experienced player who can answer questions as we go, but that's hard to find.
wtf i am even more confused
ARE YOU NEW,I AM ALSO , WE CAN LEARN TOGETHER , IF YOU WANT !!
4:40 very therapeutic :D
surely the first turn advantage isn't worth 7.5 points. And traditionally the komi rule never existed. where did they pull 7.5 from!?
Traditionally, before komi, black usually won. They introduced komi of like 4 points about a hundred years ago, and found that it evened the game up somewhat, but not quite. After analyzing thousands of pro games over the last century, go organizations have agreed that a komi of like 5-8 is about right for evening the winrate. Different go organizations have different komi values. 5.5, 6.5, 7.5, etc.
Why is the end game graphic not chronological as your explanation, removing dead stones...???
Thumbs Down !!!
I can't do math on my head!
But this is territory scoring.... AGA rules are about area scoring, doesnť they,??
AGA rules allow you to use both territory and area counting methods. Pass stones and the requirement for white to pass last actually ensure that territory counting will give the same result. Most people playing by AGA rules count territory just because it's easier but AGA is considered an area scoring ruleset because game results would be the same as with area counting but different from territory counting without pass stones.
What is happening, sos
i thought komi was 5.5 points
Depends on the rule set.
senseis.xmp.net/?Komi
It actually was in 1990s. Today, 6.5 in Japan and 7.5 in China.
Utterly confusing
Thank God u r talking in English.
You are so cute :D Tnx!
서툴다.