Kohdok Talks About Subscription Card Games for a Bit.
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- Опубліковано 7 кві 2023
- Another off-the cuff discussion going more in-depth on how I would make something I mentioned back in the video about LCG's.
It's card games as a subscription! And it's a huge area of design space that I feel could be better explored. The already popular "Crate" style of subscription is still fairly popular and often used as a narrative delivery device, so why not do the same for games?
In this video, I will explore a theoretical way to use this model to create an interesting and engaging story. It's a bit of an indulgent video, I know.
#tcg #ccg #tradingcardgame #cardgame #cards #gamedesign - Ігри
I think that the speed duel format for yugioh is a very interesting case study as it's essentially shifted it's model to that of an lcg (regular box releases that are the only way new stuff comes in). It's really surprising konami of all companies is using this model but it seems to be working
It's a good thing this was a faceless video because the temptation to do "Clutch Cargo Mouth" for a bit would be too strong to resist.
A ideia for a video for some day: whats is your opinion about extra decks in games
Aside from focusing on Yu-Gi-Oh, I wanna know how kohdok views the Ride deck from the new Vanguard.
I know you didn't really care for it, but this is really similar to the model that was used for the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game! The game came in a yearly core box with six characters, a base scenario, and the first scenario pack, and then every 2 months another scenario pack would release with the next chapter of the story and all the cards necessary for it. The scenario packs have 5 stories in them each so you'd be playing a new story every other week under the model, and could replay scenarios or switch characters or whatever you like! Character decks were also sold separately to be used with any adventure path and the organized play league also released free scenarios that use the cards from the core sets and scenario packs to make new stories to play through.
The 2nd edition core set (which was the 5th core set total) revamped the rules and included a lot more information about designing your own scenarios (and how to use the new rules/cards with the cards from the 4 previous years of official support) but only received one year of official scenario expansions. so it's over now, but for the four/five years it was active it was very similar to what you describe!
I just wanna let you know that I really appreciate your channel taking an interest in all card games as a whole, I think that's really rare for the hobby and definitely makes your channel super valuable. Thank you ^^
I just tried releasing "starter packs" for, well its not an ecg because its a board game with cards as movable pieces, but it worked out really well! The low buy-in really attracted a lot of people and encouraged multiple purchases for people who enjoyed the pack opening experience. Making it so that every pack had an alternative foil card was also a great addition for people to get more from this purchase because selling whole sets of foil cards for full core sets would be too financially demanding.
Thanks for the vidja Kohdok! I love your ideas for releasing an ecg with different outlets for as many audiences to enjoy. Its a big help into creating flexible systems that work to cater to different types of game modes using the same cards while still giving you a reason to add to your card collection!
I got in on Killer Bunnies early so I got to experience the new sets coming out and playing with the new mechanics. It really is the best way to experience an expandable game like that.
I think a subscription-based game being a onetime experience is a feature, not a bug. Each month you get a single carefully curated play experience; next session you don't go back to the stuff you just played, you open the next month's box.
There's a kneejerk aversion to games that can't be put back on the shelf and replayed endlessly (and having a huge pile of waste when you're done with it is a concern), but I think the more interesting direction would be to lean into the one-time nature of it. Stickers, destructible pieces, lean into the tactile parts of the experience that other games typically avoid.
Clutch Cargo, now those are some old memories
Another example of a show that came from the serial style of storytelling? Doctor Who started out that way before the revival. All 27 seasons of the original run were devided up into multi episode stories that were usually 30 minutes long per part.
This sounds awesome! I'd love to see this become a reality one day
Have you played any of Marvel Champions' campaign boxes. Verrrrry similar premise. Good vid tho
cool idea!
I think the biggest issues bogging down Expandable Card games is initial cost to get in the door and the amount of SKUs game stores need to carry. Also most ECGs don't have "starter decks" at launch, you need to shell out for the core set. I think a starter deck at launch would for sure help the buy-in problem.
I like the idea and it could work.
The only difficult choice for the game designer would be, how long should each of the story last?
10, 12, 15 chapters etc, if it drags on for to long, people will get bored and move on.
This is very similar to where I was trying to plan for my thing I need an artist though and some good setup but mine was a very superhero system some with issues coming out every so often the first case was going to be a robbery the second one was going to be a kidnapping and so forth.
TCGs are every hard to get into a lot harder than what Kohdok says within this video.
With TCGs you have to bet that every player has built a semi functional deck which is unlikely to be the case for anything that is not mtg. Even with starter sets, the player who introduces a new tcg to his friends has a much superior deck than his opponents making the introduction match for most new/potential players feel unbalanced. And this assumes that the card store is supporting the newly introduced game in question which is unlikely (as nearly all stores do not really carry products for anything outside of the big 3).
Then there is the fact that players often have to play catch up with the meta which forces players to buy new cards or risk getting a deck that is outdated (which can cause various issues). With games like Yugioh the issue of catching up is really apparent as new players have to learn all of the new summoning mechanics which can feel very overwhelming to new players.
With LCG this problem does not really exist as the set has enough copies of all the set's cards for 2-4 players and all players have an equal chance to win as the others as all players have the same cards to pick from as their opponents.
Also this does not take as nearly as much storage as there is no legitimate chaff within an LCG. With the product being kept within 1 convenient box.
And the featurecreep and powercreep is a lot less as the company making the product is not constantly trying to sell you the next release.
So yeah I think the LCG model is better than the TCG model as a result.
One solution to this is do out of print TCGs
Release 4 starters each with 31 cards fully formed decks. Players cannot mix starter set cards. Then release 3 expansion packs each with 165 cards. These cards can be swapped with those in the starters. Then, more starters and expansions can be released later. Organized play can tell players which starters and expansions are permitted. This allows for more narrow choice on cards for tournaments, or broader choice on cards for casual play.
My only problem with LCG/sub model is no holos. I like shiny cards!
Subscription Card Games, so Ashes Reborn. Plaid Hat Games keeps the game alive based on having a minimum number of subscriptions. Subscribers get new sets 2 months before the general public. They call it PDP, Player Driven Production, but it is just a subscription card game. they started it in 2020
Trading cards are more akin to gambling
But it's not exactly gambling it's quite addictive
Dude remembers in the video your doing Skaletone Showdow on Kaos Expert at Trap Team? In the part you have to press all the control buttons to get the adhesive? Please tell me your secret? I play on PS4 but still tell me please
Would you count Null Signal Game’s Netrunner as a SCG? or a LCG
somebody needs to do a good SCG
This sounds like Arkham, but instead of LGSs getting bogged down with skus, you mail the mythos packs out?
Basically. Though the Mythos packs can get away with being a lot smaller since they aren't so desperate to convey a sense of value. Not to mention eliminating the overhead of distributors.
Did you see the Lorcana rules yet?
I saw the prices.
Dang i wish this existed....
My suggestion is to make the starter set cheaper than the core set the core set should be as cheap as a TCG V deck
Remember when you did a yo kia watch video five years ago?
I heard they tried to bring it back only for it to be immediately cancelled again.
huntRkiller It's less a card game and more a puzzle box
You kind of already have the subscription with any tabletop game having any expansion(s). The real issue is you take any of the big 3 TCGs, it's next to impossible to collect every single game piece. Especially when they've existed for over 25 years, and you're dealing with collectibles that cost in the thousands. That's where LCGs shine. It's more attractive to someone spending say $60+ and they have everything to the game, versus the alternative where they could physically never collect the game in full and spend a lot in the attempt to do so.
The counter to this is they don't have to. You can simply buy the cards you want in a TCG and ignore all of the rest of them, rather than having to commit to the entire set.
I still say LCGs are best at presenting a curated experience, rather than a competitive one.
I'd never buy into a subscription-based card game. Every card game I've ever played has had hit-and-miss themes, archetypes, sets and metas. The ability to just say "I don't care about this product" is a big part of what keeps card games affordable, and the whole point of a subscription monetisation model is that you get money from people who forget to cancel payment on the months they don't care. I don't see any advantage to the consumer to having a game as a subscription model, rather than just releasing monthly expansions to an online store.
Well, like I said, the idea is to present it as a chapter-based story. You only opt-in to the stories you want to play. It takes writing chops to keep exciting month-on-month, but it's not like an online service subscription that hopes you forget.
I mean, you can't forget; you're getting sent physical goods in the main every month.
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