Don't worry, I have a lot more videos on bicycle gearboxes and belt drivetrains for you to watch! 🤌🏻 🧡 5 New Bicycle Gearbox Drivetrains 2023 --- ua-cam.com/video/pyeMBKJLtWI/v-deo.html 🖤 Shimano Alfine internal gear hubs --- ua-cam.com/video/qf9tFJFXV5o/v-deo.html ❤ Rohloff hub vs Pinion gearbox --- ua-cam.com/video/W_hx4V9mYuw/v-deo.html 💛 Belts are now better than chains --- ua-cam.com/video/PhXTl7gApVA/v-deo.html 💙 Effigear Mimic gearbox --- ua-cam.com/video/F08bDBK7U7A/v-deo.html 💜 Chainless shaft drive bicycles --- ua-cam.com/video/eimLIkJaNFM/v-deo.html 💚 Chainless digital drive bicycles --- ua-cam.com/video/r-Zyp6jX0HM/v-deo.html
I'm glad you pointed out the efficiency loss, well researched video, that was really hard to find when I was doing research on these hubs too & probably not a frequently asked question. :)
They also work amazingly well on tandems since you dont have to agree with the passenger on a time to shift. Just twist the grip and the change is felt no problem. Huge uprade to tandem riding!
We appreciated that too (although for big shifts still had to back off the power).........but found that when using low gears to go up hills, with two people, we were often over the level of torque that it seemed to be comfortable with......I would describe it as feeling 'squishy' when pedalling very hard
As someone who used a NuVinci N360(Enviolo before 2017) for Mountain biking for 2 years, I can tell you outright that the efficiency loss of bike CVTs absolutely destroys you on steep climbs. I ended up going from the N360 to the Rohloff speedhub and the speed difference was insane. My best time in ideal conditions on specific 10 mile MTB trail was 1 hour and 20 minutes with the N360, I was able to do the same trail in 58 minutes on the rohloff my very first time out in sub-optimal wet/muddy conditions. The Efficiency makes an Insane difference over time and distance especially if you have any steep climbs with bumps like roots or rocks on them. Granted if you're using the CVT on an E-Bike with pedal assist on, then the difference probably wont matter to you, but otherwise; you're gonna have a bad time over distance especially if there are any steep uphill sections.
Premium Efficiency example (Higher cost equals better performance & efficiency) Superlative air-source mini-split heat pumps with COP of 7.1 cost 3X more than cheaper units with a COP of 3.4 Long range BEV's cost 2X more than ICE with similar range per fueling LED bulbs with the same spectral performance (color matched, wide color gamut and high CRI) about 10x more costly Homes with superior German Passivhaus super insulated and high efficiency heating & cooling are 2.5X more costly Aircraft with better fuel economy can cost 40% more in capital cost upfront I.E. You can't get something for nothing in engineering, or there is no free lunch in physics Ultra low energy consumption homes with full function cost 5-8X more than cheaper less efficient simple homes- this is called the dark side of going green because making all that super efficient all copper or silver heat exchangers, gold wires, and titanium foam + MLI insulation, gap sealing, thermal bridge mitigation, low-E triple glazed windows, high R-factor fireproof security doors, AI control of systems and smart home devices, more wires, more networking, specialized expensive heat pumps fridges, clothing driers, water heaters, and heat pumps for HVAC.
Premium capital cost for super efficient systems and devices has a better ROI when they are used in economies where energy for those systems more costly. Like in Tokyo where electricity cost $1/ kWh an LED bulb has a much faster ROI than in Grant County, Washington State where electricity only $0.03/kWh or 33X less expensive, where an LED bulb almost does not pay for itself before flickering failure or burning out. Also given the complex manufacturing of LED chips on legacy node IC manufacturing equipment, there are hidden toxic environmental effects from the emissions of said processes, that were never an issue with incandescent, low and high pressure sodium, halogen and fluorescent bulbs which also saw a 50x reduction in mercury content per bulb, important cause Hg now more expensive that Ag or liquid metal mercury costs more than silver now.
I think what is more important when comparing efficiencies of gear hubs vs derailleur shifting is the FEEL when pedalling under load. Obviously when simply commuting it is not going to bother anyone that much, but the longer your ride is the more frustrating it gets in my opinion. I couldn't care less about the extra 2 minutes on a 100km ride, but that feeling of each pedal stroke dissipating somewhere in the system finally got me. I know I'm exaggerating, but it felt like jogging on a beach vs jogging on asphalt, especially in lower 'gears' climbing uphill. I was nevertheless happy after I finished a Maratona d'les Dolomites (160km, 4000hm) on my modified BMC alpenchallenge with nuvinci 380 and gates belt drive 😅 Fine-tuning the gear ratio to find the best cadence for every specific moment is something magical and it is such a huge difference even compared to derailleur gear jumps. And I'm not even talking about rohloff with its 14% chasms between each gear. For everyone to understand - I'm mostly bikepacking on a road bike, so for me the optimal cadence/speed is important. And I do not mean always staying in 90rpm zone - depending on terrain/fatigue you would prefer doing 60rpm or 110rpm instead of the 'optimal' 90. I also had a bike with pinion 1.18 for some time. Much better feel in terms of efficiency... And oh that amazingly light rear end 😊. But i was literally appalled by not being able to shift under load at all. I know all gear hubs have this problem, and even derailleur shifters can give up in certain situations, but pinion was the worst I've ever experienced when trying to shift to a lighter gear on a 15% climb. So after a couple of years of experimenting I'm back to derailleurs and chains 😐
Thanks for all the advice, and for confirming what I’d suspected- that the local bike shop everyone else raves about has been trying to sell me very expensive stuff which won’t fulfill my needs! Mind you the dead giveaway was that whenever I asked some sensible questions and pointed out why something would be an issue for me they snapped at me, and made outrageous claims like “whenever there’s a fault it’s because the customer did something stupid” (for landing in a river,) and “our wheels don’t break” (neither did mine until I was hit by a car- that’ll break anything.)
you are forgetting the part where only a new and properly lubricated chain setup running the chain straight is more efficient than a belt. once you ride in a gear where the chain can not be straight anymore you are losing power, chain slightly stretched ? loosing power again, chain not completely clean and well lubricated ? loosing power again. the belt on the other hand doesnt have these problems.
@@Pixelplanet5 well then I guess I'm always riding properly lubricated new chains in the right gear :D ok jokes aside, I am not talking about efficiency numbers in relation to an absolute efficiency. I'm talking about the feel. Grinding up a hill out of the saddle with nuvinci felt like treading on something soft when compared to doing it on a granny gear with an imperfect chain line. You'll know what I mean if you ride around on nuvinci like I did for some time. Again not saying that the hub has no place in the cycling world - it does. Just not for me for the reasons stated above
@@Pixelplanet5 oh now I see that you only talk about belt vs chain. Ok then I can't disagree. My problem is not the belt though but the gear hub. I did not say that a belt drive is less efficient than a chain
About the stiff shifter: There is two shifting available: single turn, and double turn. The first one is stiff but you can go thru the whole range in one turn. On the other hand, the dual turn is much softer but you have to turn it more.
I have a ebike with enviolo automatiq. I absolutely love it. No hassle of even thinking gears forget about changing them. Gates belt drive is no maintenance. Only cons are bit heavy, little drag but no issue for ebikes.
I'm amazed by the double standard. CVT is perfect because optimal pedalling efficiency is always achievable as long as you don't care about the overall efficiency. Derailleur is bad because you can never have optimal pedalling efficiency. Breaking news: if you don't care about everything else (your main argument for accepting the huge power loss of the CVT) you can also have constant perfect pedalling efficiency with a derailleur. If you feel like you are between 2 gears you can simply chill a bit and select the easier one. This sacrifices a tiny bit of speed (most often less than the 14% power you constantly sacrifice with a CVT). Instead of wasting those 14% energy from your last meal, you can use it to go further with a calm pace and without a sweat.
As a road cyclist who occasionally uses these hubs when using bike shares, my biggest annoyance is the massive range in the highest ratios (which i basically always am in with these because they are geared so low for the average cyclist) this is definitely due to wear somewhere in the system, because when they add new bikes to the fleet they always have good ratios at first. Perhaps it is due to the cables or misuse/lack of maintenance, but with a bike fleet that is something you need to design for.
Came here to say this. Where i live (switzerland) there are a lot of hills, so theres a lot of shifting under heavy load going on. I very rarely see an enviolo over 10000km which still provides the full range. As far as i know the problem is the disc which angles the balls in the hub, it wears out and is no longer able to maintain the balls at the maximum angle
20,000 km is already not very long for a bike transmission to last, especially not for the price. And it sounds like it doesn't even really last half that. It's a shame, because it otherwise seems like a good idea.
Yeah I think at max gear and higher power on a public bike you're also more likely to run into problems. My local ones skip to hell and back if you try and push high torque through them with lower cadence (I'm an extremely casual cyclist, might be missing something)
I personally have the pinion , rohloff , kindernay and Alfine 8. Love how robust the pinion and rohloff are. But my Alfine lasted me 6 months. Water seem to sip through and caused a lot of rust within the hub and the bearing race were so badly rusted the entire hub ceased. While the kindernay often have shifting issues and requires bleeding so very often.
Sturmey Archer and Shimano planetary hubs have very poor sealing against water invasion. If you look at a 3 speed Shimano or Sturmey hub you can actually see one of the 3 bearing sets, they are not even covered, much less sealed. Which leads to the second issue, they are packed with grease at the factory, so you can't lubricate them, without disassembling the hub, and repacking, which is beyond the abilities of even experienced home mechanics.
@@PRH123 i have disassembled my alfine 8 and its do-able . but requires the TL7001 shimano tool to align everything back in place when assembling back . but still , using sealed bearings would be so much better. on a side note the alfine 11 / di2 are using oil bath instead of grease. they work alot better and also lesser resistance than the alfine 8 .
@@IvanLiew1404 yes oil bath is much better…. the very old SA 3 speed hubs were oil lubricated, with a fitting on the hub for adding oil…. They need to bring that back…. or transition to cartridge bearings, as they have on their other hubs…
The negatives outweigh the positives for me on this one... The lack of climbing gear, fiddly wheel removal, unreliable shift cable.... This thing is not for long-distance tourers.
Exactly. Restricted pretty much to those who don’t ride much. Cool concept though. Maybe a ring to ball to ring to ball to ring design would add enough range? But that would reduce efficiency even further. And add weight and probably limit the torque even more. Oh well.
which hub do you recommend if you ride a bike a lot and need less maintenance? I currently have an Envilio 380 and I am thinking whether to change it to an Envilio automatic or a Rohloff automatic
I've been riding a Turi from Priority Bicycles that I bought 3 years ago and it has a 300% ratio Enviolo rear hub and uses a Gates Belt drive as well. I put 7000 miles on it before I replaced the front Cog because it was creaking: The belt had worn small cups on the torque side of its teeth. So I bought a new cog and while waiting for it to arrive I dusted the belt with CORN STARCH and the creaking went away! When the new cog arrived I replaced it and saw the old belt looked no different than the brand-new belt that I had been using as a spare and was in my road kit for 3 years. I put on the new cog and used the brand-new spare and kept the old belt for use as a spare, since 7000 miles hadn't harmed it. Seriously, it looked like it was new. My guess is these belts will last for 50,000 miles just like their big brothers that are inside many 4 cylinder car engines driving the camshaft. Enviolo makes one with a higher ratio but the 300% unit works fine for the city. Priority sold me a smaller rear cog that worked with the original belt because I wanted a "longer leg". I'm a huge fan of the Enviolo. I got a 600 recently for gravel and off-road use since the Turi is designed for sidewalks and paved roads. The 600 has a Pinon 12 speed crankset gearbox and is a great all around bike, but I still ride my Turi from time-to-time. I have nothing to say about efficiency as I'm sure it's not as efficient as a derailleur. But as far as joyriding and commuting, I wouldn't have a derailleur or anything with a chain anymore. I feel like an emancipated slave: I'm NEVER going back to those chains.
Well, I can certainly appreciate the evolution of internal gear hubs. Now, my bike, an Apollo from 1962, is working on a three gear internal hub. It has done so since the day it left the factory. It hasn´t needed any oil change. It has always worked. It does not make any sound when I change gears or while driving. I can change gears while stopped (not recommended, as the third gear is quite strong to pull). I have the feeling that this is just another overengineering case, an illness our society is strongly suffering from. Again, I appreciate the idea and advantages, but normal people will never exceed the need for a lower first gear of mine, nor will they find third gear not enough for speeding. Combining bycicles with mobile phones on the other hand seems to me like getting crazy. We have now around 240 million cases of serious neck problems and that is only the tip of the iceberg. Mobile phones are the worst idea ever and people should start to STOP using them. As flexible I am with innovation, on that point I completely go the opposite and condemn them. I am now the only person in my city without a mobile phone, but some years from now, I will have been a pioneer instead of being laughed at. And yes, I am as old as my bycicle. In fact, we were "born" nearly the same day. This may explain some of my stupid texting, I hope. Kindest regards and the very best to you and your beloved. Miguel
I use the enviolo in a bike share more than daily. Everything you say is very true, when wet it's almost impossible to turn the manual gearchange (although if you grip differently can help), and even being constantly abused, it feels more like a cable issue than a gearbox issue. But they still get very beat up But being able to change gears while stationary is huge on cities with lots of red lights, worth the efficiency loss for me
In my personal view the only way to use a enviolo is with the automatiq only then the real advantages of the system become clear. The loss means its mostly useful for ebikes and yes the 10% extra loss (maybe as explained) is true but that just means you are one gen behind in battery tech. The jump from 500wh to 625wh or now 625wh to 750wh and 4 or 6 amps charging will take care of that. I ride about 60km a day on a reise and muller with enviolo automatiq changed my whole view on how comfy and fun riding can be that combined with our good and getting better bicycle paths in the netherlands.
@@ghagen888 Yes i now have 16000+ km on it. I have a nevo3 gt automatic with some changed parts. The only thing i didn't like where the breaks i upgraded them to the mdp models when it was time for some updates. Now the enviolo had to be replaced at 14000km not because it broke but during maintenance the shop made a mistake and broke it so they replaced the whole back wheel with a new one+enviolo+controller part. So i can't 100% say how long it would have lasted but it was fine as far as i can tell before they broke it :)
Highly suspicious of any gearbox that claims you never need to change the oil. To the best of my knowledge all oils break down and lose effectiveness over time. Some automotive CVT manufacturers went with this "sealed for life" guff for several years before being forced to back down in the face of real world customer experiences.
The beauty of bikes is you can have a 40 year old frame, just switch out a few worn parts and off you go. I actually like shifting. My car is manual shift also 😊
We have 3 bikes with enviolo at my house. One of them is automatic and that is just the best. Wife preferred enviolo to rholloff so we got a tern gsd with it. She just didn't like pushing the shifter all the time as well as the noise. So far several thousand miles in on the 3 bikes and still living the enviolo. It's just so easy to use since I never have to remember to maintain it and get in the proper gear. Though I really did like the rholloff hub.
The noise bothers her? Get used to it, understand that it is not equal to drag, and after some thousands of kilometres of use, and 2-3 oil changes, the noise diminishes greatly. My Rohloff has done almost 70,000km and I barely notice any noise when riding.
@@petesig93It seems like she's happy with the enviolo, so why would she want to "get used to it"? I'm sure it's a minor complaint, but it makes the ride a little less pleasant and not everyone needs a high performance drivetrain. Especially when there are no oil changed to be performed for the life of the hub.
You missed one thing about the weight difference. For normal cargo/components you are correct. But for rotational unsprung mass, these weight differences become much more impactful. If you're interested, there are a number of online calculators for that, and even if mostly aimed for cars, these can easily be used for bikes as well.
I decided not to place emphasis on unsprung mass as I don't think that full suspension bikes (and rough terrain) are the primary application of Enviolo hubs.
@@AndreSomersNot much because the mass is near the centre of rotation. It's the moment of inertia of the wheel that matters, not its mass, when it comes to the effect it has on the ride. Moment of inertia is proportional to mass but also to radius squared, so heavy rims or tyres make a massively bigger difference than heavy hubs.
Ease of maintainability is a big deal. The cost difference in servicing an Alfine 8 vs an Alfine 11 makes the Alfine 11 much cheaper in the long run even though the initial purchase cost is higher.
@@huhummmmmmm Did you perform the recommended yearly maintenance? Have you sent it to a bike shop to be looked at? It may need some tweaks to the barrel adjuster. Or it could be something else entirely.
My first experience of one of these was on an ebike, under the Nuvinci branding. With the 250w mid drive it was incredibly sluggish. My following experiences have also been with ebikes and again were incredibly sluggish. Nuvinci, or Enviolo refuse to publish the efficiency of their hubs, and they make a very large effort to convince people that third party testing shouldn't be trusted. They know these hubs aren't efficient but won't admit that, and they'll only get worse with age, not better. The twin cables also make puncture repairs very annoying. I absolutely hate these hubs, I hate the company, they're unbelievably heavy, and aftermarket support is very lacking in many parts of the world. I contacted them once about some bearing play from the shop I worked at, and the response was less than helpful, implying that replacing the hub at full price was the most convenient thing for them.
which hub do you recommend if you ride a bike a lot and need less maintenance? I currently have an Envilio 380 and I am thinking whether to change it to an Envilio automatic or a Rohloff automatic
Recently got a nexus 8 bike after a long stint of single speed. I love the low maintenance of IGH and it's great to see another video on a lesser known one. Keep up the great content, we love it.
I thrashed two Nexus 8 sport over a year of usage and maybe 6k kilometers. After switching to an Alfine 8, the known weather seal weakness of the Nexus has finally stopped harassing me
@@PhilosoFox When was that please? I think Nexus and Alfine had issues, that were resolved around 2017 or so. Asking because I have a new bike with Nexus 8, am planning a lot of sporty riding with it
@@buckroger6456 What someone needs to do is "fixed" gear cvt. Like in my polaris 1000c ATV. The speed spins the belt to higher gear. You can only do this with fixed gear as freewheel would drop you to smallest gear while coasting
I have changed my 3 1990 steel Moser road bikes from 3 x 8 derailleur to Shimano Alfine 11 with DI2 changers. I am delighted with the results and would not go back. The lowest gear was a problem but from your previous videos chanced a 1.0 to 1.6 sprocket to chain-ring ration, based in my weight, giving a bottom gear of approx 21" and after 6 months there have been no problems. Found your information videos very helpfull.
No one does equipment deep-dives like you, they themselves send you on a ride for 20+ minutes not including the rewatch value :P Also you encouraged me to go on my first bikepacking tour, so huge thanks for your contribution to the community :) That being said, I traveled through Germany and France (parts on the European Divide Trail) on my Cube Travel Pro with a Shimano Nexus 8 Gear hub. While I had the time of my life and am hooked, I will never again bikepack on a hub with 308% gear range and 28" gear inches. Any hill with more than 3% gradiant was a major pain and required brutal pedaling (best I managed to climb was 9%). But most importantly the high gear jumps broke me. Not being able to find the right cadence turned out to be way more of an issue than I could have imagined. So even on flats I was constantly deciding between putting more effort into my strokes or fall back in speed considerably (losing momentum as well which only worsened my pace more). The Enviolo seems really promising, if only they offered ~530% gear range, I'd be sold. Now I'm banking on either getting a used Rohloff (insane value on 2nd hand market in Germany, usually 400€-800€) or getting a MTB with a 2x11 drivetrain (maybe you can guess where I got the idea from)
I have been bike packing with a derailleur system, got an Alfine 8 and own a Rohloff now. By far the best shifting system I've ever had! It's so smooth, and with the range I can easily pedal 12% gradients. I was lucky finding a second hand Rohloff first, then built a bike around it :). Highly recommended!
Enviolo/NuVinci are great, particularly the N171, BUT their aftersales services are severely lacking (a kind euphemism for "they suck") and spares are non-existant for almost anything other than their newest items. That's a great shame because what they're capable of is impressive, until they need servicing. Yes - servicing, because they leak. You get what you pay for, and never forget - buy cheap, buy twice.
The non serviceability is a big no for me, 20000 Km? thats like two years for me. Am i suppose to buy a new one every two years? I know it is a special kind of oil, sell it for more than other oil then, but sell it.
@@AtheistDD I'm 100% with you on this. My view is that Enviolo are doing themselves out of a lot of sales with this "Our tramsmissions are so perfect you NEVER need to open them up or service them.", because that is NOT the case. I am going through the "seek and you shall find stage" of trying to determine which CVT oil they use. Yes, I have tried asking them and got no response. So far, I've found Santotrac-50, generally used in aircraft, which is a low viscosity high traction fluid and cost USD250 (250 dollars US) for one quart (~1 liter) as the most likely one. But, I think (hope?) that one of the automotive CVT fluids will do the trick. Any and all comments on my views are appreciated.
I use a alfine on my koga bike but a enviolo automatiq on my riese and muller doing about 10k on it over a year. I know you touched a little on this but for me the concept of bringing the whole drive train under software control is key. The cvt can always be kept in correct mode (less stress on parts) and combined with a (ebike) good motor and controller you can always 'shift' and change how the bicycle reacts. This makes for a whole different riding experience i don't shift at all anymore and the new bosch system also has a auto mode that adapts to you so even that doesn't need a change anymore. The end result is i just peddle and go always at my speed (turns out 68rpm) we are already seeing special modes where like in a car you can set it in different modes to create different riding curves and more sensors are coming in to control things like abs, wet riding, tilt sensors to it detects hills up and down. The fact that the whole motor and gear system is stepless and my 'peddling' can be stable but the drive train can be flexible is perfect. Its perfect for the dutch roads i use it on. The only downside if i move back to a normal bike (in this case my koga) i forget to shift all the time. I think anyone should ride a enviolo automatiq for say 100km just to see how it feels best on a comfy bike like a riese and muller its just so relaxing and fun.
Great video, you do a fantastic job of hitting all the good points and also the bad points of the enviolo hub. Some videos I’d seen prior to buying a bike with an enviolo hub gave me the impression that there are no disadvantages to this hub but that just isn’t the complete picture. One thing about difficult shifting and cable wear, I suspect the setup is poorly done, my bike had issues with difficult shifting and it took ages for me to diagnose it. If the cable lengths aren’t correct and the cable tensions are also wrong it’s very easy for the cable to run off its guide within the shifter. This can damage the cable as shown in your video or even damage the shifter itself (this happened to me…). There’s also a significant lack of literature on forums, UA-cam etc. The enviolo support videos are less than 5mins in length and do not show you where you can go wrong (again maintenance is not a perfect world except on cleanly edited UA-cam videos…). These hubs do have a place in biking but it’s not perfect by any means.
which hub do you recommend if you ride a bike a lot and need less maintenance? I currently have an Envilio 380 and I am thinking whether to change it to an Envilio automatic or a Rohloff automatic
@@mr.denoli7749 not having an electronic shifting enviolo or Rohloff it’s hard to say. Alfine di2 has complaints online as well. If you understand the setup for enviolo it should last (mine after heaps of stuffing about finally works fine and I understand what’s important when the tutorials tell you cable tension is important but without the explanation why and how much tension is required). I’ll keep using enviolo 360ct but I think if I could spend big rohloff would be in my sights. If I get off my ass I’ll make a video about all the issues I’ve had with enviolo 360
Super helpful video Alee! This has really helped me to assess the merits of thes different hubs! Currently really enjoying a Nexus 8 with gates but I have always been intrigued by the CVT hubs. It might have been cool to mention that Leonardo Da Vinci invented the first one in wooden mock up form! Your information on the gear ranges was particularly helpful!! I did not realize how limited the Enviolo hub could be compared to a Rohloff! Super information with amazing clarity. Thank you.
Nice piece. Thank you. I find my NuVinci 380 a bit syrupy, especially when pedalling hard. If you're climbing a steep hill a fairly high cadence (75+) and low input torque seems better than vice versa. After all, you are squeezing a non-Newtonian fluid between two surfaces under very high contact pressure (at least that's how I assume it works). On the other hand, it does seem that on the flat, at least, the faster you pedal the more 'lossy' it is - which stands to reason I suppose. When the time comes I intend to do a bottom bracket ebike conversion. I think it will really come into its own then, even if it's not an auto.
Very interested for use on my high wheel….probably have to build a new wheel for it..36” may be fit a front wheel , all depends on the axil I guess..dun-no?
The main loss in these types of CVT or Variator as they are called in industry, is in the ball bearings that apply the load to one or other of the input or output. It would be wrong to think that the 'no contact' is unique to this drive, all rolling element Variators rely on this phenomenon as do ordinary ball and roller bearings, where in normal use the balls are not in contact with the races. It would also be wrong to believe that 'no contact'= no wear. All rolling element bearings suffer from extremely high near point contact forces leading inevitably to fatigue of the ball and the surfaces they run on. The well known Kopp Variator is very similar, just inside out with the idler being an external ring, this is not a new idea.
Had one. Disaster.Very inefficient especially evident on hills. I believe this is the third name for these hubs. When the reputation catches up with them then the name is changed.
I’d be interested in a comparison video between Rohloff and Pinion, as their ranges are more suited to my style of riding as I frequently ride up 17% inclines and my lowest gear on my Brompton is 28” from a 44T chainring and sometimes feel a lower gear would be preferable. Similarly, my MTB needs a wider range than Enviolo can offer.
On a 4.8 fatbike tire with some day bikepacking gear, I will ride up 18% grades fairly frequently. As a senior I find myself looking for even lower gearing and I do not like walking, lol! Who cares about the top gear, as I know how to still spin and tuck as I do not really care about lots of speed any more. :)
all these technologies won't matter when your city has no safe bike infrastructure for commuting. have you seen bikes used in Amsterdam? 1800 tech but millions are using it , key point here is 'city'
Living off a bicycle for years now, I can not say enough good things about Rohloff: no more cassette to clean or buy, less chains to buy, no more derailleur frozen in position, can shift whenever as much as I need. Love this product. Got a Schlumpf drive on the front, love it too.
There is just 2 bad things with Rohloff. Some sample variations. They do have some monday morning hubs with issues.(Rare) The actual list price. If you own a good one though. Your set for a lot of miles of near hassle free riding. They do have the best product.
@@1barnet1 I was grinding through more than 120 dollars (low side) per month (rear cassette, chains, front cassette). Not to mention days, where I couldn't shift. Imagine that. You are riding about 80 miles today and your gear shall be frozen in place 3 days ago. At this point tye Rohloff hub has been a great financial choice. The question is simple. How many miles are you going to ride. I live off my bicycle. Love their product. Change th oil twice a year. Replaced a paper gasket once. The oil is biodegradable. What's not to love about the price? Keep riding. Hope your having a great week. Know your/you're love
What were you doing to your bikes? I haven't changed a single part on my Mtb, and it's a 2012. Sure I've replaced chains when they are due, but never cassettes and such.
I worked in a company designing and building bikes for food delivery businesses and we used Enviolo hubs in them. They work pretty well under those conditions and if the survive non stop rough treatment by under payed delivery drivers well enough they should do well for commuting and so on as well. We also paired them with 70 Nm mid motors and even that did not harm them long term (for granted, I left after about six months, but in those six months they done about 200 km daily every day between three shifts, so I would say that is a long enough span to judge on given the sample size of about 80 bikes)
Why do we have to pedal at the same cadence all the time? Would it not be healthier to vary the cadence, pedal fast sometimes, pedal slow sometimes, pedal hard sometimes, pedal easy sometimes? My single-speed or three-speed is perfect for this. The belt drive is perfect. Why is it so difficult to find a bike with belt drive?
I love the feeling of riding Enviolo/ NuVinci Hubs but i'd prefer a broader gear range. I've never tried HarmoniQ or AutomatiQ but I'm stoked to do so. Thank you for the most detailed Tech Explanations on the best Bicycle Technologies
Tried nuvinci on my diy ebike 15 years ago. Efficiency is very bad when ratio is further from 1:1. Like almost down to 60%. Also you can't switch/adjust under load, you have to release throttle to shift. Check my old videos for details.
I love your videos. I'm a road cyclist, and I've never done any bikepacking or bike trekking However I'm also a big technical guy so your videos are so satisfying to me
85% is the low end typically these hubs operate above this. The efficiency data shown is old and the newer models of hub have a higher efficency than the old.
This is EXACTLY the type of video I was looking for. I've been contemplating the Priority Continuum Onyx with a CVT for a while now, but couldn't find any good direct comparisons between other hub shifters. It seems clear that CVTs are the way to go for low maintenance city riding. I saw at least a couple people mention that enviolo hubs have a break in period where the transmission feels sluggish brand new. Did you experience this yourself?
I finally could not contain my curiosity and bought a Priority bike with a belt drive and Enviolo hub. It is merely ok, certainly not life changing. The hub is heavy, and the belt drive is certainly no better than a chain drive just for propelling the bike. I find myself missing that old familiar click and engagement of a well-adjusted shifter/derailleur/cassette drive train. To each their own, personally I regret the purchase and will never buy another one. I'm not knocking Priority or Enviolo, just stating in my experience there was nothing significant to justify the hype.
Great comparison. I own derailleur, enviolo and Rohhloff bikes. The derailleur bike is a folder and the only one I would like to drive should the battery die. The enviolo bike is the best to use in the city, mostly because the shifting is much less of a trouble at traffic lights or when conditions change quickly. For long distance biking I absolutely love my Rohhloff although I do not particularly like its electronic shifter.
I bought a low-maintenance bike from a company called Priority, in New York. I love my Enviolo hub. The bike also has a belt drive, and the frame is made of aluminum to avoid rust.
5:10 that hit hard. my friend who has a lame right hand aked me to help build a geared bike that can be controlled by the left hand. i was stumped. lets not forget about left handers. honestly we need to ask for left and right hand gearing regardless of the system. but the button press gearing for be really god for someone like my friend. good point
Love that "number nine" just like from Beatles' White Album Fun fact: this cvt is technically a planetary gearbox with gear teeth being surface roughness of discs and rollers. Not so fun correction for 21:55 - it changes the position of the contact patch, not size. But yeah, if you do the full rotation of the roller "sphere", you can say the ring area of all contacts is bigger or smaller.
10 years ago, when I was student, I jobbed as a pizza delivery guy. The shop has mofas for most deliveries but bikes for short distance deliveries. The bikes were equipped with nuvinci gearboxes. I hated those bikes. Pedaling them felt like stepping of soft wet toast. Not shure if the bike were just bad, or if I dislike the hub.
I like to ride at high speeds, but the enviolo limits me to 42km/h at 100rpm. My LBS said that changing to the heavy duty hub, will allow me to go faster at lower cadence. Although the specs tell me differently. Does anyone have experience with this?
Laced in one on my 33 year old MTB. Love it. Would never go back to a derailleur. Have the manual shifter and have had no problems with it. I was glad to see that you saw/know that they can not shift between high and low without the wheel turning. Not a real problem; even when I come to a stop; as I've already downshifted. Love how if I want just a "bit" more/less peddle, I can give the knob a slight twist and I'm good. I started out with a 34/17 combo on the gears, but had no real low end, so I went to 24/17 and can pull hills with the best of them. I don't have a very high end, but I never go over 15 mph anyway. The 34 is still on the front so I can pull the derailleur arm forward and change rings if I'm on flat ground and want to go fast. I wanted to have just a plain chain, but I couldn't get the right spacing with the vertical dropouts. So I modified the old broken derailleur arm and I'm good to go.
The shifting of those Enviolo hubs on shared bikes feels sluggish and you need considerably more effort to accelerate than with a derailleur drivetrain. That matters a lot in an urban environment with lots of starts and stops. Tough shifting at the handle also means your hand gets more tired after a long commute. I personally would much rather compromise on durability, maintenance and cost than on everyday ease of use and efficiency. It’s probably ok for ebikes, though
I have experience with the rolhoff, enviolo and nexus 5spd e hub. All on urban arrow cargo bikes. I actually prefer the nexus over the enviolo but the rolhoff is crazy good! If I had to pick I'd be going nexus. They just work. The indexed twist shift isn't bad, feels similar to rolhoff for get up and go whereas the enviolo feels somewhat sluggish. Plus the cost of the nexus is hard to argue with!
Can't wait to get one of these on my gravel bike! I don't care about a little more "free resistance" or weight. I still want a loud freewheel so people hear me coming on bike paths though. ;)
Problem with all of these hubs is that they are heavy at the back wheel. This makes them not optimal for mountain bikes. the gearbox needs to be close to the pedals.
After riding the auto shifting Enviolo (with Specialized interface) i did not want to go back to manual shifting of any kind. You can still adjust cadence on the fly.
i watched one of your other videos and i left a comment.. i tested some enviola hubs and i liked them.. i also tested a shimano alfine and i didn't like how it shifted and how it clunked.. i would like to test a rohloff but i still think that i will like an enviola the most.. especially on an ebike..
Great video and comparison. I chose the Enviolo for my first trike. Having a derailleur bent for an unknown reason on my main ride I decided to make the change on my future rigs. Rohloff was a choice but given the price and having electric assist, it would have been superfluous.
I have an ice sprint x tour trike and currently have alfine 8sp with a 38 T oval ring in the front. I need more climbing gears on the trike. The local trike shop told me the alfine 11 sp wouldn't help me with more climbing gears and suggested Enviolo trekking hub. After watching the video im not sure ill get the climbing gears I need. I was hoping Enviolo would be a good fit and solve my climbing issue. I do not have a mid drive motor as yet. Anyone have experience with Enviolo and a trike application? I was hoping to not to spend 1500.00 on Rohloff. I do realize you get what you pay for.
I was overwhelmed but in a concise manner, I now can scrutinize my new purchases with your channel’s informing videos, outstanding you now have a new subscriber..
I believe Honda made a compact car using a CVT. In a car this would seem more appropriate, since a car's mechanical transmission is only about 75% efficient. A CVT in such cases may increase efficiency and even be lighter.
Our customers like the Enviolo. But that depends heavily on the area of application. Here in Germany, the enviolo is finding more and more followers. I use the Rohloff. It's the ideal solution for those who don't know where to go. And I have to say I like the gears. I have the feeling that I never hit the right gear with the Enviolo. And as a touring cyclist, the Rohloff is of course better. But both have their pros and cons. As always a very good video. I like to show it to our customers if they can't decide. 😅
They need to be simpler and rebuildable. The technology is cool. Less than 400% range is no good unless you're in Manhattan. Rohloff needs to get their price down to like $500. The Enviolo concept is similar to one i had. Ie, why not have 2 cone shaped gears, a big and little one. The little one slides up and down the big one, and is connected to the pedals: \ \< / / Well, hard to draw, but i think you can get the idea. The little cone gear just winds up and down a large cone gear. Simple.
Most bikes shown in the video are electric, not needing the 400% range. Rohloff is probably too complex and riddled with warranty systems to cover the cost (as well as research cost)
Rohloff outlasts the bike frames its installed in, even steel frames. There are units out there that have gone over 300 000 km. Its actually the cheapest per km out of any drivetrain option.
Cone CVTs must be shifted at very high rpms. Much higher than a cyclist could manage. It would take about 100 feet of cycling to move up a noticeable ratio change from a standstill. It’s why manual shift mode in autos is so slow even at high speeds. Additionally, with existing tech and engineering limitations, the weight would be a lot more than an Enviolo. A cone CVT could be designed for bicycles to work differently and allow shifting under load but the number of moving parts would be great and thus the hub would be much more expensive. Expensive and heavy is a no go.
@@EricPeelMusic thanks for the reply, and it seems informed, but something doesn't seem correct. The shifting would just be a linear pull, not indexed. And how heavy this would be is not known. Obviously, the cones are hollowed, and not heavy. It would take no time at all to shift. The little gear would be set at an appropriate angle/position so the big gear so that the pedaling binds it. There would be a natural force to slide the little gear up or down the big gear, depending upon angles. So, a friction shifter can be used. Current chains and derailleurs seem fine, especially with new surface hardening techniques that are available that could extend metal chains/cassettes/chainrings to 10x their current lifespan. I am not certain why any change needs to be made to the typical cassette/chain/chainring designs actually. They are affordable, recyclable, and they could be made even more affordable with standardization and mass production, and they have a potential with alloys and modern hardening techniques to last 10x longer.
A CVT belt cannot slide up and down the cones perpendicularly. It must move up in small increments each cycle. This means the vehicle must move before it can begin to shift and shifts are slow. Cone CVTs cannot shift at a standstill. There are 4 large cones. Each can be engineered to be lightweight but so can any cog or pulley and 4 is double two. And the housing must be very stiff and it adds weight. The shifting mechanism, exclusively hydraulic, adds weight. I guess this could be achieved with actuators instead but that’s at least two geared electric motors, unless you have one geared or chained up to drive all four cones. A lot of moving parts - still more weight and failure points. I think it would be a fun experiment to develop a cone CVT for bicycles if you can design in CAD and machine the parts. But I’m just answering from an engineering POV that it would be a challenge and that’s why it hasn’t been done yet, since you asked.
😁We have patented an entirely new, infinitely variable, ultra-torque dense, gear technology, called FrictionLess Gear, which is a reformulation of gearing theory. Legacy and novel applications abound. Retrofits of ALL existing bikes, even electrics, will be available. The gear range can easily be >700 with a price range half of the lowest priced competitor 😉
This is pure spec sheet crap. I‘ve had several Enviolo hubs and would never buy another. So many disadvantages. Real world Efficiency, durability, actually required service, difficulty of maintenance… My enviolo bike would break down every 3 months. I bit the bullet and bought a Rohloff after spending as much as the Rohloff was on enviolo hubs and parts.
i just got a qwic atlas vario, with the heavy enviolo and belt drive... biked 80k with the motor off, almost all the way, it was a pleasure even if its only 83 percent...
No big deal 14% so what you're saying it's a meme. A new chain costs nothing I can change 10 chain's and everything included 5x in 200$. 140km lost at every 1000km is no joke over the lifetime of a bike you will loose incredible amounts of energy.
"compatible with up to -20c" but that isn't very cold. Can't they handle colder? I can't find much option for belt train bikes. Where can you even get these bikes? Priority is the only option I can find and their bicycles are only rated to take up to 275 pounds, which is too low. Where can I buy these? I guess unless I want to build my own bicycle, no point in learning about any of this.
11:45 extra weight isn’t about adding time to my travel it’s about the extra exertion. I need my bike to be as light as possible to maximize my maneuverability. And your numbers don’t add up if I’m adding 800 g how is this only 1 or 2% extra weight? You must have a 50 pound bicycle? come on bro
Too much is made of efficiency. All internal hubs have a 1:1 ratio where gears are not in engaged and the efficiency is very high. I have geared my bikes to mostly run around the 1:1 ratio so you are mostly in the most effiecnt gear. Gearing down and up is only done occasionally. Unfortunately bike shops all seem to think everyone is a super athlete on a road race so most drive trains find themselves constantly in the low gears. Same on my CVT it has a 1:1 ratio and I have geared the front ring and rear cog so I mostly ride around this 1:1 . I have a mark on the shifter for this position. Same with the nexus hubs, I have no experience with Alfine or Rohlof.
hmm... they have internal gear hubs from china for 50-60$ that seem like they are pretty similar. im not a bike person, but something tells me bike type people would never buy such things even if they are equivalent in real world use. its weird to see how the hobby of biking has transformed into this bazar snobby upper middle class area of legit innovation lol. I ended up here because I stumbled upon some powdered ptfe product from china for really cheap and had to figure out why such a thing would exist.
Robots dont require pay. Robots dont have sick days. Robots dont require sleep. Robots dont require days off. Robots are precision accurate. I see about a kilogram of steel. I just googled the price for stainless steel and titanium. This is about $2 - 3 dollars a kilo These things are still overpriced IMO.
otherwise similarly specced bikes from the same manufacturer cost up to 13 hundred dollars more for pinion than enviolo. you might be able to find a few hundred dollars in nicer components on the pinion models, but that's still like a grand more in just the gearbox. that is a LOT of money for a single component for most people.
He glossed over "efficiency" pretty fast. If you shut off your ebike assist, you will have a tough time gaining any speed, unless you are already going downhill. Otherwise, it like pedaling through mud.
We have 10 e-bikes for rent at our company with these enviolo hubs. They are not reliable. Every single one had to be replaced already at least once within 1000 to 3000 km. Of course rental bikes are used more roughly, but that every single one was broken it more screams like a reliability issue. the highest gear was also not that high, as after 25 kmh it was impossible to speed up the bike, as I was strampling already super quick. These were installed in Riese and Müller bikes, which are quite expensive (like 6000 dollars each)
I noticed that lowest gear on enviolo is not enough and also when I go uphill I have issues with turning/gear changing. I think it’s perfect for older people and casual driving on flat terrains. I need different HUB!
Telling this as a bikemechanic. These hubs are unbelievably unreliable. Compared to Shimano hubs you do not have the possibility to adjust the play of the hub, so if your happens to have play, the hub is defect and needs to be replaced (some customers do have this after 2000km on their e-bikes). Then the freehubbody itself often gets play in itself, which leads to the chain or belt being off-center and possibly damaging them. Only way to fix this is replacing the freehubbody. When lacing these hubs you notice that most frames are not designed for the hubflanges being the same height, so you need to lace them asymmetrical in order for the wheel being centred. Then it happens sometimes that the disc mount itself is misaligned so you have to live with constant brake rub or you need to replace the disc mount. Overall there is nothing on this hub that can be repaired, only replaced and if the hub needs to be sent to Enviolo you most often just get a new one because even they are unable to repair them.
3:47 This shifting is actually very impractical. No numbers to remember and you need to go shift degree at a time. Sport cyclying need faster shifting than this. I can see the advantage of oil-free drive for city cyclists, but that shifting is crazy.
I soured on enviolo after it failed on our Urban Arrow after only 3800 miles. They replaced it under warranty but it took quite a while to turn around.
I have been looking at ebikes and I think I want something like an enviola hub, electronic shifting, and chain drive. I would just be using it to ride around in Germany. It seems to be a good option.
Don't worry, I have a lot more videos on bicycle gearboxes and belt drivetrains for you to watch! 🤌🏻
🧡 5 New Bicycle Gearbox Drivetrains 2023 --- ua-cam.com/video/pyeMBKJLtWI/v-deo.html
🖤 Shimano Alfine internal gear hubs --- ua-cam.com/video/qf9tFJFXV5o/v-deo.html
❤ Rohloff hub vs Pinion gearbox --- ua-cam.com/video/W_hx4V9mYuw/v-deo.html
💛 Belts are now better than chains --- ua-cam.com/video/PhXTl7gApVA/v-deo.html
💙 Effigear Mimic gearbox --- ua-cam.com/video/F08bDBK7U7A/v-deo.html
💜 Chainless shaft drive bicycles --- ua-cam.com/video/eimLIkJaNFM/v-deo.html
💚 Chainless digital drive bicycles --- ua-cam.com/video/r-Zyp6jX0HM/v-deo.html
@Cyclingabout pin this to the top so it doesn't get lost in the flood of comments on the video.
I'm glad you pointed out the efficiency loss, well researched video, that was really hard to find when I was doing research on these hubs too & probably not a frequently asked question. :)
Que bueno.seria traducir al español grcias
What should be the cost of 625% meshed IVT crank gearbox? In process of filing patents.
They also work amazingly well on tandems since you dont have to agree with the passenger on a time to shift. Just twist the grip and the change is felt no problem. Huge uprade to tandem riding!
"dont have to agree with the passenger on a time to shift"
Ah, yes. The classical hostile-tandem-passanger situation 😅
We appreciated that too (although for big shifts still had to back off the power).........but found that when using low gears to go up hills, with two people, we were often over the level of torque that it seemed to be comfortable with......I would describe it as feeling 'squishy' when pedalling very hard
@@matmaxgedsyes that’s probably the loss of efficiency you’re feeling, they definitely don’t feel as solid as a regular cassette
The Automatiq would be even better on a tandem
Ok, that seems to be one of the only valid arguments for me. I feel that.
As someone who used a NuVinci N360(Enviolo before 2017) for Mountain biking for 2 years, I can tell you outright that the efficiency loss of bike CVTs absolutely destroys you on steep climbs. I ended up going from the N360 to the Rohloff speedhub and the speed difference was insane. My best time in ideal conditions on specific 10 mile MTB trail was 1 hour and 20 minutes with the N360, I was able to do the same trail in 58 minutes on the rohloff my very first time out in sub-optimal wet/muddy conditions.
The Efficiency makes an Insane difference over time and distance especially if you have any steep climbs with bumps like roots or rocks on them. Granted if you're using the CVT on an E-Bike with pedal assist on, then the difference probably wont matter to you, but otherwise; you're gonna have a bad time over distance especially if there are any steep uphill sections.
Premium Efficiency example (Higher cost equals better performance & efficiency)
Superlative air-source mini-split heat pumps with COP of 7.1 cost 3X more than cheaper units with a COP of 3.4
Long range BEV's cost 2X more than ICE with similar range per fueling
LED bulbs with the same spectral performance (color matched, wide color gamut and high CRI) about 10x more costly
Homes with superior German Passivhaus super insulated and high efficiency heating & cooling are 2.5X more costly
Aircraft with better fuel economy can cost 40% more in capital cost upfront
I.E. You can't get something for nothing in engineering, or there is no free lunch in physics
Ultra low energy consumption homes with full function cost 5-8X more than cheaper less efficient simple homes- this is called the dark side of going green because making all that super efficient all copper or silver heat exchangers, gold wires, and titanium foam + MLI insulation, gap sealing, thermal bridge mitigation, low-E triple glazed windows, high R-factor fireproof security doors, AI control of systems and smart home devices, more wires, more networking, specialized expensive heat pumps fridges, clothing driers, water heaters, and heat pumps for HVAC.
Premium capital cost for super efficient systems and devices has a better ROI when they are used in economies where energy for those systems more costly. Like in Tokyo where electricity cost $1/ kWh an LED bulb has a much faster ROI than in Grant County, Washington State where electricity only $0.03/kWh or 33X less expensive, where an LED bulb almost does not pay for itself before flickering failure or burning out. Also given the complex manufacturing of LED chips on legacy node IC manufacturing equipment, there are hidden toxic environmental effects from the emissions of said processes, that were never an issue with incandescent, low and high pressure sodium, halogen and fluorescent bulbs which also saw a 50x reduction in mercury content per bulb, important cause Hg now more expensive that Ag or liquid metal mercury costs more than silver now.
I think what is more important when comparing efficiencies of gear hubs vs derailleur shifting is the FEEL when pedalling under load. Obviously when simply commuting it is not going to bother anyone that much, but the longer your ride is the more frustrating it gets in my opinion. I couldn't care less about the extra 2 minutes on a 100km ride, but that feeling of each pedal stroke dissipating somewhere in the system finally got me. I know I'm exaggerating, but it felt like jogging on a beach vs jogging on asphalt, especially in lower 'gears' climbing uphill. I was nevertheless happy after I finished a Maratona d'les Dolomites (160km, 4000hm) on my modified BMC alpenchallenge with nuvinci 380 and gates belt drive 😅
Fine-tuning the gear ratio to find the best cadence for every specific moment is something magical and it is such a huge difference even compared to derailleur gear jumps. And I'm not even talking about rohloff with its 14% chasms between each gear. For everyone to understand - I'm mostly bikepacking on a road bike, so for me the optimal cadence/speed is important. And I do not mean always staying in 90rpm zone - depending on terrain/fatigue you would prefer doing 60rpm or 110rpm instead of the 'optimal' 90.
I also had a bike with pinion 1.18 for some time. Much better feel in terms of efficiency... And oh that amazingly light rear end 😊. But i was literally appalled by not being able to shift under load at all. I know all gear hubs have this problem, and even derailleur shifters can give up in certain situations, but pinion was the worst I've ever experienced when trying to shift to a lighter gear on a 15% climb.
So after a couple of years of experimenting I'm back to derailleurs and chains 😐
Thanks for taking time to write that. Ill be sticking with my derailleurs.
Thanks for all the advice, and for confirming what I’d suspected- that the local bike shop everyone else raves about has been trying to sell me very expensive stuff which won’t fulfill my needs! Mind you the dead giveaway was that whenever I asked some sensible questions and pointed out why something would be an issue for me they snapped at me, and made outrageous claims like “whenever there’s a fault it’s because the customer did something stupid” (for landing in a river,) and “our wheels don’t break” (neither did mine until I was hit by a car- that’ll break anything.)
you are forgetting the part where only a new and properly lubricated chain setup running the chain straight is more efficient than a belt.
once you ride in a gear where the chain can not be straight anymore you are losing power, chain slightly stretched ? loosing power again, chain not completely clean and well lubricated ? loosing power again.
the belt on the other hand doesnt have these problems.
@@Pixelplanet5 well then I guess I'm always riding properly lubricated new chains in the right gear :D ok jokes aside, I am not talking about efficiency numbers in relation to an absolute efficiency. I'm talking about the feel. Grinding up a hill out of the saddle with nuvinci felt like treading on something soft when compared to doing it on a granny gear with an imperfect chain line. You'll know what I mean if you ride around on nuvinci like I did for some time. Again not saying that the hub has no place in the cycling world - it does. Just not for me for the reasons stated above
@@Pixelplanet5 oh now I see that you only talk about belt vs chain. Ok then I can't disagree. My problem is not the belt though but the gear hub. I did not say that a belt drive is less efficient than a chain
About the stiff shifter:
There is two shifting available: single turn, and double turn. The first one is stiff but you can go thru the whole range in one turn. On the other hand, the dual turn is much softer but you have to turn it more.
I have a 380 (for 3 years) & I didn't know that.
I have a ebike with enviolo automatiq. I absolutely love it. No hassle of even thinking gears forget about changing them. Gates belt drive is no maintenance. Only cons are bit heavy, little drag but no issue for ebikes.
I'm amazed by the double standard.
CVT is perfect because optimal pedalling efficiency is always achievable as long as you don't care about the overall efficiency.
Derailleur is bad because you can never have optimal pedalling efficiency.
Breaking news: if you don't care about everything else (your main argument for accepting the huge power loss of the CVT) you can also have constant perfect pedalling efficiency with a derailleur. If you feel like you are between 2 gears you can simply chill a bit and select the easier one. This sacrifices a tiny bit of speed (most often less than the 14% power you constantly sacrifice with a CVT). Instead of wasting those 14% energy from your last meal, you can use it to go further with a calm pace and without a sweat.
As a road cyclist who occasionally uses these hubs when using bike shares, my biggest annoyance is the massive range in the highest ratios (which i basically always am in with these because they are geared so low for the average cyclist) this is definitely due to wear somewhere in the system, because when they add new bikes to the fleet they always have good ratios at first. Perhaps it is due to the cables or misuse/lack of maintenance, but with a bike fleet that is something you need to design for.
Came here to say this.
Where i live (switzerland) there are a lot of hills, so theres a lot of shifting under heavy load going on.
I very rarely see an enviolo over 10000km which still provides the full range.
As far as i know the problem is the disc which angles the balls in the hub, it wears out and is no longer able to maintain the balls at the maximum angle
I think this is cable related and probably not too hard to fix, using the electronic shifting might resolve this.
20,000 km is already not very long for a bike transmission to last, especially not for the price. And it sounds like it doesn't even really last half that. It's a shame, because it otherwise seems like a good idea.
Get over it...Buy a Rholoff and move on !!!or if you want extend your fleet...go for the Pinion....and you will sell your fleet and keep that one.
Yeah I think at max gear and higher power on a public bike you're also more likely to run into problems. My local ones skip to hell and back if you try and push high torque through them with lower cadence (I'm an extremely casual cyclist, might be missing something)
I personally have the pinion , rohloff , kindernay and Alfine 8. Love how robust the pinion and rohloff are. But my Alfine lasted me 6 months. Water seem to sip through and caused a lot of rust within the hub and the bearing race were so badly rusted the entire hub ceased. While the kindernay often have shifting issues and requires bleeding so very often.
Sturmey Archer and Shimano planetary hubs have very poor sealing against water invasion. If you look at a 3 speed Shimano or Sturmey hub you can actually see one of the 3 bearing sets, they are not even covered, much less sealed.
Which leads to the second issue, they are packed with grease at the factory, so you can't lubricate them, without disassembling the hub, and repacking, which is beyond the abilities of even experienced home mechanics.
@@PRH123 i have disassembled my alfine 8 and its do-able . but requires the TL7001 shimano tool to align everything back in place when assembling back . but still , using sealed bearings would be so much better. on a side note the alfine 11 / di2 are using oil bath instead of grease. they work alot better and also lesser resistance than the alfine 8 .
@@IvanLiew1404 yes oil bath is much better…. the very old SA 3 speed hubs were oil lubricated, with a fitting on the hub for adding oil…. They need to bring that back….
or transition to cartridge bearings, as they have on their other hubs…
The negatives outweigh the positives for me on this one... The lack of climbing gear, fiddly wheel removal, unreliable shift cable.... This thing is not for long-distance tourers.
Exactly. Restricted pretty much to those who don’t ride much. Cool concept though. Maybe a ring to ball to ring to ball to ring design would add enough range? But that would reduce efficiency even further. And add weight and probably limit the torque even more. Oh well.
which hub do you recommend if you ride a bike a lot and need less maintenance? I currently have an Envilio 380 and I am thinking whether to change it to an Envilio automatic or a Rohloff automatic
@@EricPeelMusic For my e-bike with about 50 miles of real range it seems like a fine system. Even with the Rohloff I'm still limited to battery life.
I've been riding a Turi from Priority Bicycles that I bought 3 years ago and it has a 300% ratio Enviolo rear hub and uses a Gates Belt drive as well.
I put 7000 miles on it before I replaced the front Cog because it was creaking: The belt had worn small cups on the torque side of its teeth. So I bought a new cog and while waiting for it to arrive I dusted the belt with CORN STARCH and the creaking went away! When the new cog arrived I replaced it and saw the old belt looked no different than the brand-new belt that I had been using as a spare and was in my road kit for 3 years. I put on the new cog and used the brand-new spare and kept the old belt for use as a spare, since 7000 miles hadn't harmed it. Seriously, it looked like it was new. My guess is these belts will last for 50,000 miles just like their big brothers that are inside many 4 cylinder car engines driving the camshaft.
Enviolo makes one with a higher ratio but the 300% unit works fine for the city. Priority sold me a smaller rear cog that worked with the original belt because I wanted a "longer leg".
I'm a huge fan of the Enviolo. I got a 600 recently for gravel and off-road use since the Turi is designed for sidewalks and paved roads. The 600 has a Pinon 12 speed crankset gearbox and is a great all around bike, but I still ride my Turi from time-to-time.
I have nothing to say about efficiency as I'm sure it's not as efficient as a derailleur. But as far as joyriding and commuting, I wouldn't have a derailleur or anything with a chain anymore. I feel like an emancipated slave: I'm NEVER going back to those chains.
Well, I can certainly appreciate the evolution of internal gear hubs. Now, my bike, an Apollo from 1962, is working on a three gear internal hub. It has done so since the day it left the factory. It hasn´t needed any oil change. It has always worked. It does not make any sound when I change gears or while driving. I can change gears while stopped (not recommended, as the third gear is quite strong to pull).
I have the feeling that this is just another overengineering case, an illness our society is strongly suffering from. Again, I appreciate the idea and advantages, but normal people will never exceed the need for a lower first gear of mine, nor will they find third gear not enough for speeding.
Combining bycicles with mobile phones on the other hand seems to me like getting crazy. We have now around 240 million cases of serious neck problems and that is only the tip of the iceberg. Mobile phones are the worst idea ever and people should start to STOP using them. As flexible I am with innovation, on that point I completely go the opposite and condemn them. I am now the only person in my city without a mobile phone, but some years from now, I will have been a pioneer instead of being laughed at.
And yes, I am as old as my bycicle. In fact, we were "born" nearly the same day. This may explain some of my stupid texting, I hope.
Kindest regards and the very best to you and your beloved.
Miguel
Great videos. I really enjoy cycling with hubs for transport. I'd love to try something with a belt too!
I use the enviolo in a bike share more than daily. Everything you say is very true, when wet it's almost impossible to turn the manual gearchange (although if you grip differently can help), and even being constantly abused, it feels more like a cable issue than a gearbox issue. But they still get very beat up
But being able to change gears while stationary is huge on cities with lots of red lights, worth the efficiency loss for me
In my personal view the only way to use a enviolo is with the automatiq only then the real advantages of the system become clear. The loss means its mostly useful for ebikes and yes the 10% extra loss (maybe as explained) is true but that just means you are one gen behind in battery tech. The jump from 500wh to 625wh or now 625wh to 750wh and 4 or 6 amps charging will take care of that. I ride about 60km a day on a reise and muller with enviolo automatiq changed my whole view on how comfy and fun riding can be that combined with our good and getting better bicycle paths in the netherlands.
Maybe spraying the rear mechanism with Corrosion-X would solve the problem
@@scb2scb2 Yo, still loving the automatique? Which R & M bike do u have?
@@ghagen888 Yes i now have 16000+ km on it. I have a nevo3 gt automatic with some changed parts. The only thing i didn't like where the breaks i upgraded them to the mdp models when it was time for some updates. Now the enviolo had to be replaced at 14000km not because it broke but during maintenance the shop made a mistake and broke it so they replaced the whole back wheel with a new one+enviolo+controller part. So i can't 100% say how long it would have lasted but it was fine as far as i can tell before they broke it :)
@@scb2scb2 nice. I got a cheap e bike as first my first. Next one i know i gotta put some money into it. I want that auto
I found this really interesting, up until the point where the phone became connected to the system.
Highly suspicious of any gearbox that claims you never need to change the oil. To the best of my knowledge all oils break down and lose effectiveness over time. Some automotive CVT manufacturers went with this "sealed for life" guff for several years before being forced to back down in the face of real world customer experiences.
The beauty of bikes is you can have a 40 year old frame, just switch out a few worn parts and off you go. I actually like shifting. My car is manual shift also 😊
We have 3 bikes with enviolo at my house. One of them is automatic and that is just the best. Wife preferred enviolo to rholloff so we got a tern gsd with it. She just didn't like pushing the shifter all the time as well as the noise. So far several thousand miles in on the 3 bikes and still living the enviolo. It's just so easy to use since I never have to remember to maintain it and get in the proper gear. Though I really did like the rholloff hub.
The noise bothers her? Get used to it, understand that it is not equal to drag, and after some thousands of kilometres of use, and 2-3 oil changes, the noise diminishes greatly. My Rohloff has done almost 70,000km and I barely notice any noise when riding.
@@petesig93It seems like she's happy with the enviolo, so why would she want to "get used to it"? I'm sure it's a minor complaint, but it makes the ride a little less pleasant and not everyone needs a high performance drivetrain. Especially when there are no oil changed to be performed for the life of the hub.
You missed one thing about the weight difference.
For normal cargo/components you are correct. But for rotational unsprung mass, these weight differences become much more impactful.
If you're interested, there are a number of online calculators for that, and even if mostly aimed for cars, these can easily be used for bikes as well.
I decided not to place emphasis on unsprung mass as I don't think that full suspension bikes (and rough terrain) are the primary application of Enviolo hubs.
Fair enough, but doesn’t the fact that it’s rotating mass matter in any case?
@@AndreSomersNot much because the mass is near the centre of rotation. It's the moment of inertia of the wheel that matters, not its mass, when it comes to the effect it has on the ride. Moment of inertia is proportional to mass but also to radius squared, so heavy rims or tyres make a massively bigger difference than heavy hubs.
Ease of maintainability is a big deal. The cost difference in servicing an Alfine 8 vs an Alfine 11 makes the Alfine 11 much cheaper in the long run even though the initial purchase cost is higher.
Except it sucks. I have it, it's by now a whole parade of gears are not usable, start skipping under load.
@@huhummmmmmm Did you perform the recommended yearly maintenance? Have you sent it to a bike shop to be looked at? It may need some tweaks to the barrel adjuster. Or it could be something else entirely.
My first experience of one of these was on an ebike, under the Nuvinci branding. With the 250w mid drive it was incredibly sluggish. My following experiences have also been with ebikes and again were incredibly sluggish. Nuvinci, or Enviolo refuse to publish the efficiency of their hubs, and they make a very large effort to convince people that third party testing shouldn't be trusted. They know these hubs aren't efficient but won't admit that, and they'll only get worse with age, not better. The twin cables also make puncture repairs very annoying. I absolutely hate these hubs, I hate the company, they're unbelievably heavy, and aftermarket support is very lacking in many parts of the world. I contacted them once about some bearing play from the shop I worked at, and the response was less than helpful, implying that replacing the hub at full price was the most convenient thing for them.
which hub do you recommend if you ride a bike a lot and need less maintenance? I currently have an Envilio 380 and I am thinking whether to change it to an Envilio automatic or a Rohloff automatic
Recently got a nexus 8 bike after a long stint of single speed. I love the low maintenance of IGH and it's great to see another video on a lesser known one. Keep up the great content, we love it.
I thrashed two Nexus 8 sport over a year of usage and maybe 6k kilometers. After switching to an Alfine 8, the known weather seal weakness of the Nexus has finally stopped harassing me
@@PhilosoFox When was that please? I think Nexus and Alfine had issues, that were resolved around 2017 or so. Asking because I have a new bike with Nexus 8, am planning a lot of sporty riding with it
@@userdjee834 @philosofox I would also love to know if the nexus 8 has had revisions since your trashings.
@@userdjee834 Yeah, that was before 2017, since I'm driving my Alfine 8 longer than that now.
@@PhilosoFoxWell thanks for completing the informational big picture.
I am leaning towards the pinion gearbox for my next bike. They have the motor hub assembly for ebikes that is also attractive.
But there is a fairly large weight penalty over the Rohloff.
@petesig93 yes, but that weight is down low and in the center of the bike. That translates to a better handling bike.
@@buckroger6456 What someone needs to do is "fixed" gear cvt. Like in my polaris 1000c ATV. The speed spins the belt to higher gear. You can only do this with fixed gear as freewheel would drop you to smallest gear while coasting
I have changed my 3 1990 steel Moser road bikes from 3 x 8 derailleur to Shimano Alfine 11 with DI2 changers. I am delighted with the results and would not go back. The lowest gear was a problem but from your previous videos chanced a 1.0 to 1.6 sprocket to chain-ring ration, based in my weight, giving a bottom gear of approx 21" and after 6 months there have been no problems. Found your information videos very helpfull.
No one does equipment deep-dives like you, they themselves send you on a ride for 20+ minutes not including the rewatch value :P Also you encouraged me to go on my first bikepacking tour, so huge thanks for your contribution to the community :)
That being said, I traveled through Germany and France (parts on the European Divide Trail) on my Cube Travel Pro with a Shimano Nexus 8 Gear hub. While I had the time of my life and am hooked, I will never again bikepack on a hub with 308% gear range and 28" gear inches. Any hill with more than 3% gradiant was a major pain and required brutal pedaling (best I managed to climb was 9%). But most importantly the high gear jumps broke me. Not being able to find the right cadence turned out to be way more of an issue than I could have imagined. So even on flats I was constantly deciding between putting more effort into my strokes or fall back in speed considerably (losing momentum as well which only worsened my pace more).
The Enviolo seems really promising, if only they offered ~530% gear range, I'd be sold. Now I'm banking on either getting a used Rohloff (insane value on 2nd hand market in Germany, usually 400€-800€) or getting a MTB with a 2x11 drivetrain (maybe you can guess where I got the idea from)
I have been bike packing with a derailleur system, got an Alfine 8 and own a Rohloff now. By far the best shifting system I've ever had! It's so smooth, and with the range I can easily pedal 12% gradients. I was lucky finding a second hand Rohloff first, then built a bike around it :). Highly recommended!
Enviolo/NuVinci are great, particularly the N171, BUT their aftersales services are severely lacking (a kind euphemism for "they suck") and spares are non-existant for almost anything other than their newest items.
That's a great shame because what they're capable of is impressive, until they need servicing. Yes - servicing, because they leak.
You get what you pay for, and never forget - buy cheap, buy twice.
The non serviceability is a big no for me, 20000 Km? thats like two years for me. Am i suppose to buy a new one every two years? I know it is a special kind of oil, sell it for more than other oil then, but sell it.
@@AtheistDD I'm 100% with you on this. My view is that Enviolo are doing themselves out of a lot of sales with this "Our tramsmissions are so perfect you NEVER need to open them up or service them.", because that is NOT the case.
I am going through the "seek and you shall find stage" of trying to determine which CVT oil they use.
Yes, I have tried asking them and got no response.
So far, I've found Santotrac-50, generally used in aircraft, which is a low viscosity high traction fluid and cost USD250 (250 dollars US) for one quart (~1 liter) as the most likely one.
But, I think (hope?) that one of the automotive CVT fluids will do the trick.
Any and all comments on my views are appreciated.
Lost in transmission. Sounds a lot like a band.
I use a alfine on my koga bike but a enviolo automatiq on my riese and muller doing about 10k on it over a year. I know you touched a little on this but for me the concept of bringing the whole drive train under software control is key. The cvt can always be kept in correct mode (less stress on parts) and combined with a (ebike) good motor and controller you can always 'shift' and change how the bicycle reacts. This makes for a whole different riding experience i don't shift at all anymore and the new bosch system also has a auto mode that adapts to you so even that doesn't need a change anymore. The end result is i just peddle and go always at my speed (turns out 68rpm) we are already seeing special modes where like in a car you can set it in different modes to create different riding curves and more sensors are coming in to control things like abs, wet riding, tilt sensors to it detects hills up and down. The fact that the whole motor and gear system is stepless and my 'peddling' can be stable but the drive train can be flexible is perfect. Its perfect for the dutch roads i use it on. The only downside if i move back to a normal bike (in this case my koga) i forget to shift all the time. I think anyone should ride a enviolo automatiq for say 100km just to see how it feels best on a comfy bike like a riese and muller its just so relaxing and fun.
Great video, you do a fantastic job of hitting all the good points and also the bad points of the enviolo hub. Some videos I’d seen prior to buying a bike with an enviolo hub gave me the impression that there are no disadvantages to this hub but that just isn’t the complete picture.
One thing about difficult shifting and cable wear, I suspect the setup is poorly done, my bike had issues with difficult shifting and it took ages for me to diagnose it. If the cable lengths aren’t correct and the cable tensions are also wrong it’s very easy for the cable to run off its guide within the shifter. This can damage the cable as shown in your video or even damage the shifter itself (this happened to me…).
There’s also a significant lack of literature on forums, UA-cam etc. The enviolo support videos are less than 5mins in length and do not show you where you can go wrong (again maintenance is not a perfect world except on cleanly edited UA-cam videos…).
These hubs do have a place in biking but it’s not perfect by any means.
which hub do you recommend if you ride a bike a lot and need less maintenance? I currently have an Envilio 380 and I am thinking whether to change it to an Envilio automatic or a Rohloff automatic
@@mr.denoli7749 not having an electronic shifting enviolo or Rohloff it’s hard to say. Alfine di2 has complaints online as well. If you understand the setup for enviolo it should last (mine after heaps of stuffing about finally works fine and I understand what’s important when the tutorials tell you cable tension is important but without the explanation why and how much tension is required).
I’ll keep using enviolo 360ct but I think if I could spend big rohloff would be in my sights. If I get off my ass I’ll make a video about all the issues I’ve had with enviolo 360
Super helpful video Alee! This has really helped me to assess the merits of thes different hubs! Currently really enjoying a Nexus 8 with gates but I have always been intrigued by the CVT hubs. It might have been cool to mention that Leonardo Da Vinci invented the first one in wooden mock up form! Your information on the gear ranges was particularly helpful!! I did not realize how limited the Enviolo hub could be compared to a Rohloff! Super information with amazing clarity. Thank you.
It is always a lovely day when Alee uploads a video. :)
Nice piece. Thank you. I find my NuVinci 380 a bit syrupy, especially when pedalling hard. If you're climbing a steep hill a fairly high cadence (75+) and low input torque seems better than vice versa. After all, you are squeezing a non-Newtonian fluid between two surfaces under very high contact pressure (at least that's how I assume it works). On the other hand, it does seem that on the flat, at least, the faster you pedal the more 'lossy' it is - which stands to reason I suppose.
When the time comes I intend to do a bottom bracket ebike conversion. I think it will really come into its own then, even if it's not an auto.
Very interested for use on my high wheel….probably have to build a new wheel for it..36” may be fit a front wheel , all depends on the axil I guess..dun-no?
The main loss in these types of CVT or Variator as they are called in industry, is in the ball bearings that apply the load to one or other of the input or output.
It would be wrong to think that the 'no contact' is unique to this drive, all rolling element Variators rely on this phenomenon as do ordinary ball and roller bearings, where in normal use the balls are not in contact with the races.
It would also be wrong to believe that 'no contact'= no wear. All rolling element bearings suffer from extremely high near point contact forces leading inevitably to fatigue of the ball and the surfaces they run on.
The well known Kopp Variator is very similar, just inside out with the idler being an external ring, this is not a new idea.
Had one. Disaster.Very inefficient especially evident on hills. I believe this is the third name for these hubs. When the reputation catches up with them then the name is changed.
I can't believe a CVT with infinite gears is slower than a regular drivetrain.
I’d be interested in a comparison video between Rohloff and Pinion, as their ranges are more suited to my style of riding as I frequently ride up 17% inclines and my lowest gear on my Brompton is 28” from a 44T chainring and sometimes feel a lower gear would be preferable. Similarly, my MTB needs a wider range than Enviolo can offer.
On a 4.8 fatbike tire with some day bikepacking gear, I will ride up 18% grades fairly frequently. As a senior I find myself looking for even lower gearing and I do not like walking, lol! Who cares about the top gear, as I know how to still spin and tuck as I do not really care about lots of speed any more. :)
all these technologies won't matter when your city has no safe bike infrastructure for commuting. have you seen bikes used in Amsterdam? 1800 tech but millions are using it , key point here is 'city'
Key points in Amsterdam
It's as easy to buy drugs on every street corner as it is to buy an stolen bike.
What an utopia........
Living off a bicycle for years now, I can not say enough good things about Rohloff: no more cassette to clean or buy, less chains to buy, no more derailleur frozen in position, can shift whenever as much as I need. Love this product. Got a Schlumpf drive on the front, love it too.
There is just 2 bad things with Rohloff.
Some sample variations. They do have some monday morning hubs with issues.(Rare)
The actual list price.
If you own a good one though. Your set for a lot of miles of near hassle free riding.
They do have the best product.
@@1barnet1 I was grinding through more than 120 dollars (low side) per month (rear cassette, chains, front cassette). Not to mention days, where I couldn't shift. Imagine that. You are riding about 80 miles today and your gear shall be frozen in place 3 days ago.
At this point tye Rohloff hub has been a great financial choice. The question is simple. How many miles are you going to ride. I live off my bicycle. Love their product. Change th oil twice a year. Replaced a paper gasket once. The oil is biodegradable. What's not to love about the price? Keep riding.
Hope your having a great week. Know your/you're love
Which Schlumpf have you got?
What were you doing to your bikes? I haven't changed a single part on my Mtb, and it's a 2012. Sure I've replaced chains when they are due, but never cassettes and such.
@@buckroger6456 living off of it, more days than not were 75-100 miles. So I was riding the hell out of it. Tried to take 1 day off every 14.
I worked in a company designing and building bikes for food delivery businesses and we used Enviolo hubs in them. They work pretty well under those conditions and if the survive non stop rough treatment by under payed delivery drivers well enough they should do well for commuting and so on as well. We also paired them with 70 Nm mid motors and even that did not harm them long term (for granted, I left after about six months, but in those six months they done about 200 km daily every day between three shifts, so I would say that is a long enough span to judge on given the sample size of about 80 bikes)
Why do we have to pedal at the same cadence all the time? Would it not be healthier to vary the cadence, pedal fast sometimes, pedal slow sometimes, pedal hard sometimes, pedal easy sometimes? My single-speed or three-speed is perfect for this.
The belt drive is perfect. Why is it so difficult to find a bike with belt drive?
Might depend on country more and more bikes here (netherlands) use belt-drives my normal bike koga also uses a belt drive and internal geared hub.
I love the feeling of riding Enviolo/ NuVinci Hubs but i'd prefer a broader gear range. I've never tried HarmoniQ or AutomatiQ but I'm stoked to do so. Thank you for the most detailed Tech Explanations on the best Bicycle Technologies
Use a 3 gear crankset....
Fantastic video brother, incredible 👏 👏 you are a hero!
Tried nuvinci on my diy ebike 15 years ago. Efficiency is very bad when ratio is further from 1:1. Like almost down to 60%.
Also you can't switch/adjust under load, you have to release throttle to shift. Check my old videos for details.
I love your videos. I'm a road cyclist, and I've never done any bikepacking or bike trekking
However I'm also a big technical guy so your videos are so satisfying to me
Thank you. Excellent indepth review. Please continue with these. I am 78 years old. I am a subscriber.
Is there a list of bike manufactures or models that have these. I googled and found zilch
same here. i'm trying to buy a bike with it today and can't find anything
So this is how a paid review looks like. Only 85% efficiency, its nothing says the man.
85% is the low end typically these hubs operate above this. The efficiency data shown is old and the newer models of hub have a higher efficency than the old.
I've had a basic bike for years, this just makes me want to completely replace it
This is EXACTLY the type of video I was looking for. I've been contemplating the Priority Continuum Onyx with a CVT for a while now, but couldn't find any good direct comparisons between other hub shifters. It seems clear that CVTs are the way to go for low maintenance city riding.
I saw at least a couple people mention that enviolo hubs have a break in period where the transmission feels sluggish brand new. Did you experience this yourself?
Yes they get smoother after about 500km but personally for ebikes i would always go with the automatiq it just changes the whole riding experience ...
I am riding with the Nuvinci hub.
Biggest drawback is that at the highest speed, you have the lowest efficiency.
Wouldn't buy this again.
I finally could not contain my curiosity and bought a Priority bike with a belt drive and Enviolo hub. It is merely ok, certainly not life changing. The hub is heavy, and the belt drive is certainly no better than a chain drive just for propelling the bike. I find myself missing that old familiar click and engagement of a well-adjusted shifter/derailleur/cassette drive train. To each their own, personally I regret the purchase and will never buy another one. I'm not knocking Priority or Enviolo, just stating in my experience there was nothing significant to justify the hype.
Great comparison. I own derailleur, enviolo and Rohhloff bikes. The derailleur bike is a folder and the only one I would like to drive should the battery die. The enviolo bike is the best to use in the city, mostly because the shifting is much less of a trouble at traffic lights or when conditions change quickly. For long distance biking I absolutely love my Rohhloff although I do not particularly like its electronic shifter.
I bought a low-maintenance bike from a company called Priority, in New York. I love my Enviolo hub. The bike also has a belt drive, and the frame is made of aluminum to avoid rust.
Priority is how I first heard about these hubs. How do you like yours? I was looking at the Continuum Onyx as a possible do-it-all bike
Thanks for posting this, it was really interesting and will be very useful knowledge for looking after mine.
5:10 that hit hard. my friend who has a lame right hand aked me to help build a geared bike that can be controlled by the left hand. i was stumped. lets not forget about left handers. honestly we need to ask for left and right hand gearing regardless of the system.
but the button press gearing for be really god for someone like my friend. good point
From memory, Rohloff makes both left and right handgrip gear shifters.
Love that "number nine" just like from Beatles' White Album
Fun fact: this cvt is technically a planetary gearbox with gear teeth being surface roughness of discs and rollers.
Not so fun correction for 21:55 - it changes the position of the contact patch, not size. But yeah, if you do the full rotation of the roller "sphere", you can say the ring area of all contacts is bigger or smaller.
10 years ago, when I was student, I jobbed as a pizza delivery guy. The shop has mofas for most deliveries but bikes for short distance deliveries. The bikes were equipped with nuvinci gearboxes. I hated those bikes. Pedaling them felt like stepping of soft wet toast. Not shure if the bike were just bad, or if I dislike the hub.
Don't compare it with rohloff. Compare with $200 Alfine.
I like to ride at high speeds, but the enviolo limits me to 42km/h at 100rpm. My LBS said that changing to the heavy duty hub, will allow me to go faster at lower cadence. Although the specs tell me differently. Does anyone have experience with this?
Think any manufacturer would lend you a Pinion MGU-equipped bike for testing?
I've already tested it along with many other upcoming drivetrains! I'll have to do another gearbox round-up when I get the chance. 👍🏻
Laced in one on my 33 year old MTB. Love it. Would never go back to a derailleur. Have the manual shifter and have had no problems with it. I was glad to see that you saw/know that they can not shift between high and low without the wheel turning. Not a real problem; even when I come to a stop; as I've already downshifted. Love how if I want just a "bit" more/less peddle, I can give the knob a slight twist and I'm good. I started out with a 34/17 combo on the gears, but had no real low end, so I went to 24/17 and can pull hills with the best of them. I don't have a very high end, but I never go over 15 mph anyway. The 34 is still on the front so I can pull the derailleur arm forward and change rings if I'm on flat ground and want to go fast. I wanted to have just a plain chain, but I couldn't get the right spacing with the vertical dropouts. So I modified the old broken derailleur arm and I'm good to go.
The shifting of those Enviolo hubs on shared bikes feels sluggish and you need considerably more effort to accelerate than with a derailleur drivetrain.
That matters a lot in an urban environment with lots of starts and stops. Tough shifting at the handle also means your hand gets more tired after a long commute.
I personally would much rather compromise on durability, maintenance and cost than on everyday ease of use and efficiency.
It’s probably ok for ebikes, though
I have experience with the rolhoff, enviolo and nexus 5spd e hub. All on urban arrow cargo bikes. I actually prefer the nexus over the enviolo but the rolhoff is crazy good!
If I had to pick I'd be going nexus. They just work. The indexed twist shift isn't bad, feels similar to rolhoff for get up and go whereas the enviolo feels somewhat sluggish. Plus the cost of the nexus is hard to argue with!
Can't wait to get one of these on my gravel bike! I don't care about a little more "free resistance" or weight. I still want a loud freewheel so people hear me coming on bike paths though. ;)
Problem with all of these hubs is that they are heavy at the back wheel. This makes them not optimal for mountain bikes. the gearbox needs to be close to the pedals.
Excellent video and presentation. Thank you.
In addition to my Enviolo NuVinci 380, I added an ENFEO GTRO (Internally Geared Front Chain Ring). So now I have 3 chain rings, no derailleurs.
Amazing video. The engineering on these hubs is top notch. My next ebike will have one:)
After riding the auto shifting Enviolo (with Specialized interface) i did not want to go back to manual shifting of any kind. You can still adjust cadence on the fly.
I agree, the auto shifting is really nice to use!
Amazing video: super-interesting, to-the-point, well-structured, complete! Thank you, I have learnt a lot!
i watched one of your other videos and i left a comment.. i tested some enviola hubs and i liked them.. i also tested a shimano alfine and i didn't like how it shifted and how it clunked.. i would like to test a rohloff but i still think that i will like an enviola the most.. especially on an ebike..
Great video and comparison. I chose the Enviolo for my first trike. Having a derailleur bent for an unknown reason on my main ride I decided to make the change on my future rigs. Rohloff was a choice but given the price and having electric assist, it would have been superfluous.
Thanks for these explainer videos, i feel much better equipped to discuss bike models and features when looking at a new purchase.
I have an ice sprint x tour trike and currently have alfine 8sp with a 38 T oval ring in the front. I need more climbing gears on the trike. The local trike shop told me the alfine 11 sp wouldn't help me with more climbing gears and suggested Enviolo trekking hub. After watching the video im not sure ill get the climbing gears I need. I was hoping Enviolo would be a good fit and solve my climbing issue. I do not have a mid drive motor as yet. Anyone have experience with Enviolo and a trike application? I was hoping to not to spend 1500.00 on Rohloff. I do realize you get what you pay for.
I was overwhelmed but in a concise manner, I now can scrutinize my new purchases with your channel’s informing videos, outstanding you now have a new subscriber..
I believe Honda made a compact car using a CVT. In a car this would seem more appropriate, since a car's mechanical transmission is only about 75% efficient. A CVT in such cases may increase efficiency and even be lighter.
Our customers like the Enviolo.
But that depends heavily on the area of application.
Here in Germany, the enviolo is finding more and more followers.
I use the Rohloff.
It's the ideal solution for those who don't know where to go.
And I have to say I like the gears.
I have the feeling that I never hit the right gear with the Enviolo.
And as a touring cyclist, the Rohloff is of course better.
But both have their pros and cons.
As always a very good video.
I like to show it to our customers if they can't decide. 😅
They need to be simpler and rebuildable. The technology is cool. Less than 400% range is no good unless you're in Manhattan. Rohloff needs to get their price down to like $500. The Enviolo concept is similar to one i had. Ie, why not have 2 cone shaped gears, a big and little one. The little one slides up and down the big one, and is connected to the pedals:
\
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/
/
Well, hard to draw, but i think you can get the idea. The little cone gear just winds up and down a large cone gear. Simple.
Most bikes shown in the video are electric, not needing the 400% range. Rohloff is probably too complex and riddled with warranty systems to cover the cost (as well as research cost)
Rohloff outlasts the bike frames its installed in, even steel frames. There are units out there that have gone over 300 000 km. Its actually the cheapest per km out of any drivetrain option.
Cone CVTs must be shifted at very high rpms. Much higher than a cyclist could manage. It would take about 100 feet of cycling to move up a noticeable ratio change from a standstill. It’s why manual shift mode in autos is so slow even at high speeds. Additionally, with existing tech and engineering limitations, the weight would be a lot more than an Enviolo. A cone CVT could be designed for bicycles to work differently and allow shifting under load but the number of moving parts would be great and thus the hub would be much more expensive. Expensive and heavy is a no go.
@@EricPeelMusic
thanks for the reply, and it seems informed, but something doesn't seem correct. The shifting would just be a linear pull, not indexed. And how heavy this would be is not known. Obviously, the cones are hollowed, and not heavy. It would take no time at all to shift. The little gear would be set at an appropriate angle/position so the big gear so that the pedaling binds it. There would be a natural force to slide the little gear up or down the big gear, depending upon angles. So, a friction shifter can be used. Current chains and derailleurs seem fine, especially with new surface hardening techniques that are available that could extend metal chains/cassettes/chainrings to 10x their current lifespan. I am not certain why any change needs to be made to the typical cassette/chain/chainring designs actually. They are affordable, recyclable, and they could be made even more affordable with standardization and mass production, and they have a potential with alloys and modern hardening techniques to last 10x longer.
A CVT belt cannot slide up and down the cones perpendicularly. It must move up in small increments each cycle. This means the vehicle must move before it can begin to shift and shifts are slow. Cone CVTs cannot shift at a standstill. There are 4 large cones. Each can be engineered to be lightweight but so can any cog or pulley and 4 is double two. And the housing must be very stiff and it adds weight. The shifting mechanism, exclusively hydraulic, adds weight. I guess this could be achieved with actuators instead but that’s at least two geared electric motors, unless you have one geared or chained up to drive all four cones. A lot of moving parts - still more weight and failure points. I think it would be a fun experiment to develop a cone CVT for bicycles if you can design in CAD and machine the parts. But I’m just answering from an engineering POV that it would be a challenge and that’s why it hasn’t been done yet, since you asked.
😁We have patented an entirely new, infinitely variable, ultra-torque dense, gear technology, called FrictionLess Gear, which is a reformulation of gearing theory. Legacy and novel applications abound. Retrofits of ALL existing bikes, even electrics, will be available. The gear range can easily be >700 with a price range half of the lowest priced competitor 😉
This is pure spec sheet crap. I‘ve had several Enviolo hubs and would never buy another. So many disadvantages. Real world Efficiency, durability, actually required service, difficulty of maintenance…
My enviolo bike would break down every 3 months.
I bit the bullet and bought a Rohloff after spending as much as the Rohloff was on enviolo hubs and parts.
i just got a qwic atlas vario, with the heavy enviolo and belt drive... biked 80k with the motor off, almost all the way, it was a pleasure even if its only 83 percent...
No big deal 14% so what you're saying it's a meme.
A new chain costs nothing I can change 10 chain's and everything included 5x in 200$.
140km lost at every 1000km is no joke over the lifetime of a bike you will loose incredible amounts of energy.
"compatible with up to -20c" but that isn't very cold. Can't they handle colder?
I can't find much option for belt train bikes. Where can you even get these bikes? Priority is the only option I can find and their bicycles are only rated to take up to 275 pounds, which is too low. Where can I buy these?
I guess unless I want to build my own bicycle, no point in learning about any of this.
11:45 extra weight isn’t about adding time to my travel it’s about the extra exertion. I need my bike to be as light as possible to maximize my maneuverability. And your numbers don’t add up if I’m adding 800 g how is this only 1 or 2% extra weight? You must have a 50 pound bicycle? come on bro
Too much is made of efficiency. All internal hubs have a 1:1 ratio where gears are not in engaged and the efficiency is very high.
I have geared my bikes to mostly run around the 1:1 ratio so you are mostly in the most effiecnt gear. Gearing down and up is only done occasionally. Unfortunately bike shops all seem to think everyone is a super athlete on a road race so most drive trains find themselves constantly in the low gears. Same on my CVT it has a 1:1 ratio and I have geared the front ring and rear cog so I mostly ride around this 1:1 . I have a mark on the shifter for this position. Same with the nexus hubs, I have no experience with Alfine or Rohlof.
hmm... they have internal gear hubs from china for 50-60$ that seem like they are pretty similar. im not a bike person, but something tells me bike type people would never buy such things even if they are equivalent in real world use. its weird to see how the hobby of biking has transformed into this bazar snobby upper middle class area of legit innovation lol. I ended up here because I stumbled upon some powdered ptfe product from china for really cheap and had to figure out why such a thing would exist.
Robots dont require pay.
Robots dont have sick days.
Robots dont require sleep.
Robots dont require days off.
Robots are precision accurate.
I see about a kilogram of steel. I just googled the price for stainless steel and titanium. This is about $2 - 3 dollars a kilo
These things are still overpriced IMO.
Ever since I got to know about Pinion gearbox I completely lost interest in other gear hubs not to mention derailleurs.
When pinion will be available under 4-500€ that would be the end of gear hub for me. But that 130€ nexus has still a long way to go.
otherwise similarly specced bikes from the same manufacturer cost up to 13 hundred dollars more for pinion than enviolo. you might be able to find a few hundred dollars in nicer components on the pinion models, but that's still like a grand more in just the gearbox. that is a LOT of money for a single component for most people.
Same. Just waiting for when a universal design comes out, like Bafang mid drives. Don’t wanna give away $1000 minimum for a new frame for it.
He glossed over "efficiency" pretty fast. If you shut off your ebike assist, you will have a tough time gaining any speed, unless you are already going downhill. Otherwise, it like pedaling through mud.
We have 10 e-bikes for rent at our company with these enviolo hubs. They are not reliable. Every single one had to be replaced already at least once within 1000 to 3000 km. Of course rental bikes are used more roughly, but that every single one was broken it more screams like a reliability issue. the highest gear was also not that high, as after 25 kmh it was impossible to speed up the bike, as I was strampling already super quick. These were installed in Riese and Müller bikes, which are quite expensive (like 6000 dollars each)
If you have such an high cadence at 25kph it really needs a heavier gearing on the belt or chain.
This flows like an infomercial and not a comparison to rohloff. Losing 17% in efficiency, especially with a load is nothing to sneeze at.
I noticed that lowest gear on enviolo is not enough and also when I go uphill I have issues with turning/gear changing. I think it’s perfect for older people and casual driving on flat terrains. I need different HUB!
Telling this as a bikemechanic. These hubs are unbelievably unreliable. Compared to Shimano hubs you do not have the possibility to adjust the play of the hub, so if your happens to have play, the hub is defect and needs to be replaced (some customers do have this after 2000km on their e-bikes). Then the freehubbody itself often gets play in itself, which leads to the chain or belt being off-center and possibly damaging them. Only way to fix this is replacing the freehubbody. When lacing these hubs you notice that most frames are not designed for the hubflanges being the same height, so you need to lace them asymmetrical in order for the wheel being centred. Then it happens sometimes that the disc mount itself is misaligned so you have to live with constant brake rub or you need to replace the disc mount.
Overall there is nothing on this hub that can be repaired, only replaced and if the hub needs to be sent to Enviolo you most often just get a new one because even they are unable to repair them.
3:47 This shifting is actually very impractical. No numbers to remember and you need to go shift degree at a time. Sport cyclying need faster shifting than this. I can see the advantage of oil-free drive for city cyclists, but that shifting is crazy.
I soured on enviolo after it failed on our Urban Arrow after only 3800 miles. They replaced it under warranty but it took quite a while to turn around.
Thank you for the informative video!
What I don't like is the superfluous and annoying background music.
I have been looking at ebikes and I think I want something like an enviola hub, electronic shifting, and chain drive. I would just be using it to ride around in Germany. It seems to be a good option.
You'd have to go for the "Extreme" model to avoid the cringe worthy "casted hub shell". Sorry, grammar nazi here.
Alfine 8 is quite smooth riding hub. No drag that annoyed me. I had it with di2. It was great! I'd take di2 any day!
I really like the Alfine Di2 hubs too! We're getting a bit spoiled for choice these days. 😎
Agree, my Alfine 11 with DI2 makes derailleurs feel primitive and love the silence.