A good reminder that this is not only the best Kickstarter I’ve ever backed, it’s also one of the best products I’ve ever used, along with Pleco. Keep rockin’ it Outlier team!
Outlier continues to be THE game changer for learners. As a Chinese professor, very very grateful for the immense work you guys continue to put into these products!!
Awesome! This kind of information was what made me interested in your project when we met in... 2013 or so. Very cool indeed! I'll need to update my review. Like you say, it ads an enormous amount of value compared to services that just rely on surface forms when comparing and relating characters.
Not only a great feature, but by the looks of it a really great and well considered implementation, you guys (and I assume the Pleco guys) clearly put in the extra effort to make the info not only available, but easily parseable.
Thanks for the kind words! We also have a _lot_ to thank Edsko de Vries for, as he volunteered a ton of his personal time to write the code that created this data.
I'm really looking forward to this. This will help me so much for characters where I have trouble remembering the difference between two similar characters.
Yeah, it'll be really good for that! For example, when does a character contain 良 vs. 艮? This is the sound series for 良 liáng. * 浪 làng: wave; wasteful; reckless * 朗 lǎng: clear, bright; distinct * 狼 láng: wolf * 琅 láng: a variety of white carnelian; pure * 娘 niáng: mother; young girl; woman; wife This is the sound series for 艮 gěn (gèn). * 很 hěn: very, quite, much * 恨 hèn: hatred, dislike; resent, hate * 狠 hěn: vicious, cruel; severely, extreme * 痕 hén: scar; mark; trace * 根 gēn: root, base(d on); foundation * 跟 gēn: heel; to follow, accompany; with * 貇 kěn: to root, gnaw * 眼 yǎn: eye; eyelet, hole, opening * 垠 yín: boundary, bank of stream or river * 銀 yín: silver; cash, money, wealth * 限 xiàn: boundary, limit, line * 艱 jiān: difficult, hard; distressing It's a very clear difference, even though it's only one dot!
Can you please make more videos to compare the features of Essentials and Experts editions? I still don't get what are the differences between them and how they are worth to learn about? Thank you
@@trangmy_tmn Basically the Expert Edition has everything that the Essentials Edition has, *plus* Expert entries for about 500 characters (with more coming soon). The Expert Entries go into more detail about the evolution of the character, as well as interesting historical tidbits But yes, we’re working on some material (both on our site and for our UA-cam channel) that will clarify things a bit more.
Just great! Any chance of indicating somehow (i.e. changing the bullet) the members of the sound series that function as phonetic components in other characters? For example, 星 xīng (醒 xǐng, 腥 xīng).
As someone who is currently learning Japanese and is still very curious about Chinese character origins for learning kanji a little more systematically: does your Japanese kanji addon for Yomiwa also get these kinds of updates? This seems like a very useful feature to have there as well! On that point, what would you say are the major differences of your Japanese kanji dictionary in Yomiwa and you your Chinese character dictionary in pleco? I am interested in also learning Chinese eventually and will definitely make sure to check out your products for that. As a sort of off-topic question, if you permit: Do you think learning Chinese and Japanese at the same time could be detrimental or specifically confusing with respect to the writing system? Thank you very much in advance :)
We actually just released the system data via Yomiwa for iOS a few days ago. The Android version should be ready by the end of February. The major difference is that at the moment, the Japanese dictionary doesn't contain very many kanji that aren't either 1) on the Joyo or Jinmeiyo list, or 2) a component of kanji that appear on those lists. The Chinese dictionary therefore has a few hundred entries that aren't in the Japanese dictionary yet, but will be eventually. The other big difference is that the Japanese dictionary contains a lot of sample vocabulary, while the Chinese dictionary doesn't, because that's already a feature included in Pleco. Learning both at the same time will be confusing sometimes, but I think your brain will sort it out eventually. However, the amount and type of confusion will probably be much more tolerable if you stagger them, so that you're already at a reasonable level in one before starting the other.
@@OutlierLinguistics Thank you very much for the thorough answer! That is very good to know. I will keep your advice in mind regarding learning both at the same time :)
Thanks for finally releasing this, but can you explain the logic of the following? "System level info for component 玉. ... Sound series (1 member) This is the sound series for 玉 yù: 国 guó"
Their pronunciations were closer in Middle Chinese, when the simplification first happened. They're still reasonably close in Japanese, too: gyoku (玉) and koku/goku (国).
@@OutlierLinguistics Thanks for the quick reply. Are there any (modern versions of) rime tables or whatnot in print that note such historical simplifications?
So I have the add on for the kanji study app but I don't believe it explains what the different shapes are in the meaning trees. Arrow means derived meaning, circle seems to mean sound loan, and triangle maybe shorthand or modern usage? Explanation would be very helpful 👍 thanks
This is amazing! On Xing, wouldnt "Xin" technically be a sound component [as well as semantic]? Since "Xin" is actually more than half way to "Xing". Sheng is techically less than halfway, she-ng, but clearly is the needed ending. Also what is the possibility that in archaic Chinese, all components has a phonetic aspect [as well as semantic]? So much is lost in time. Maybe it could be considered when it was [more] standardize, def after Oracle Bone obviously.
Sorry, I'm just now seeing this for some reason! Whether a component is a sound component or not depends on the sound *when the character was created,* not in modern Mandarin. As for whether it's possible that all components are phonetic, the answer is no. Some semantic components also give sound, and vice versa, but it's far more common for a single component to have a single function within a given character.
An amazing feature, it increases the value of this dictionary substantially. Unfortunately I'm an Android user so waiting for Pleco to apply the fix to have a deeper look at it. Is it there a plan to include polyphones meanings depending on sound by any chance? As part of the development of the Tonal Engine prototype I have found 3082 characters that contain polyphones up to now, with some of them having up to 7 different sounds with their correspondent meanings. As I'm just a beginner learner I have difficulty doing their disambiguation when they are in a sentence as I do not know which meaning goes with which sound on every case. Have you thought about this sort of feature to be also added by any chance?
We do generally separate meanings according to the pronunciation. It's not exhaustive though-we're focused on providing information that's useful to most learners, so readings/meanings that aren't common in modern Chinese don't generally show up.
Ok thanks for the clarification John. Would you benefit at all from me sharing the list of polyphones I have with you or you do not find it relevant right now? The Tonal Engine currently have more than 13k characters in it so it could be that many of the polyphones I have found are not in your dictionary but maybe Edsko de Vries can do his magic with those you have in your dictionary these time again and we all benefit :-) I mean the 3082 simplified Chinese chars and their polyphones only as I do not have the meanings of most of them linked to their correspondent sounds (yet) as I mentioned.
You should have gotten two emails: one with an activation code for the dictionary and a download link for the posters, and one with a link to access your courses. If you haven’t received them, please email us and we’ll get it sorted out for you!
@@tioliak Yes, the service we were using for the online demo recently went out of business. We’re looking for a replacement option. In the meantime, you can get a demo version through Pleco. Just go to Menu > Add-ons > Specialized and you should be able to find it there.
I downloaded the update (I think: I had to try three times due to bad wifi) and I have the system data marked at the end of the definition as 'System level info for component [component here]' but I don't have the S symbol next to graphic components of complex characters. is there some reason for that? Does this work both for traditional and simplified, for instance. Congratulations, anyway, it's a really great feature. Rather similar to Wieger's 'usual groups' method but with 21st century technology.
Do you have Android? Seems like there was an issue with the S not showing up in the component breakdown in Android, but Pleco will be putting out a fix for it shortly. Yes, it's available for both simplified and traditional.
@@OutlierLinguistics Yes, Android. I recently switched to traditional because under your influence I have launched myself into classical Chinese so I thought that might be it. I'll look out for the update. Thanks.
Try going to Menu > Add-ons > Updated. If it doesn’t show up there, you’ll need to contact Pleco (support@pleco.com) and they’ll help you get it sorted out!
@@emport2359 Exactly. That’s not to say there’s zero human error, because of course there probably is. But in this case, it’s because that’s not within the 4000 (not 3000) characters in the dictionary.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
A good reminder that this is not only the best Kickstarter I’ve ever backed, it’s also one of the best products I’ve ever used, along with Pleco. Keep rockin’ it Outlier team!
Wow, thanks so much for saying that!
It's true we had to wait a bit, but in the end, they are delivering.
Outlier continues to be THE game changer for learners. As a Chinese professor, very very grateful for the immense work you guys continue to put into these products!!
Awesome! This kind of information was what made me interested in your project when we met in... 2013 or so. Very cool indeed! I'll need to update my review. Like you say, it ads an enormous amount of value compared to services that just rely on surface forms when comparing and relating characters.
Not only a great feature, but by the looks of it a really great and well considered implementation, you guys (and I assume the Pleco guys) clearly put in the extra effort to make the info not only available, but easily parseable.
Thanks for the kind words! We also have a _lot_ to thank Edsko de Vries for, as he volunteered a ton of his personal time to write the code that created this data.
Awesome update. Looking forward to checking it out! Keep up the great work.
Just saw it in my Pleco updates and updated right away. Nice.
Fascinating! I could spend the rest of my life perusing it.
I'm really looking forward to this. This will help me so much for characters where I have trouble remembering the difference between two similar characters.
Yeah, it'll be really good for that! For example, when does a character contain 良 vs. 艮?
This is the sound series for 良 liáng.
* 浪 làng: wave; wasteful; reckless
* 朗 lǎng: clear, bright; distinct
* 狼 láng: wolf
* 琅 láng: a variety of white carnelian; pure
* 娘 niáng: mother; young girl; woman; wife
This is the sound series for 艮 gěn (gèn).
* 很 hěn: very, quite, much
* 恨 hèn: hatred, dislike; resent, hate
* 狠 hěn: vicious, cruel; severely, extreme
* 痕 hén: scar; mark; trace
* 根 gēn: root, base(d on); foundation
* 跟 gēn: heel; to follow, accompany; with
* 貇 kěn: to root, gnaw
* 眼 yǎn: eye; eyelet, hole, opening
* 垠 yín: boundary, bank of stream or river
* 銀 yín: silver; cash, money, wealth
* 限 xiàn: boundary, limit, line
* 艱 jiān: difficult, hard; distressing
It's a very clear difference, even though it's only one dot!
Excellent feature. I’ve been wanting this for a long time. Just perfect, thank you.
You guys are really changing the game here! Keep it up!
Thanks Daniel!
Welp, if the Outlier dictionary wasn't indispensable for learning to read before, it is now.
Thanks! I think it'll be a really useful update.
Very, very cool. Love this feature.
Can you please make more videos to compare the features of Essentials and Experts editions? I still don't get what are the differences between them and how they are worth to learn about? Thank you
@@trangmy_tmn Basically the Expert Edition has everything that the Essentials Edition has, *plus* Expert entries for about 500 characters (with more coming soon). The Expert Entries go into more detail about the evolution of the character, as well as interesting historical tidbits
But yes, we’re working on some material (both on our site and for our UA-cam channel) that will clarify things a bit more.
Just great! Any chance of indicating somehow (i.e. changing the bullet) the members of the sound series that function as phonetic components in other characters? For example, 星 xīng (醒 xǐng, 腥 xīng).
This is a really cool idea. We're going to look into it!
Thanks for the work
Brilliant!
As someone who is currently learning Japanese and is still very curious about Chinese character origins for learning kanji a little more systematically: does your Japanese kanji addon for Yomiwa also get these kinds of updates? This seems like a very useful feature to have there as well! On that point, what would you say are the major differences of your Japanese kanji dictionary in Yomiwa and you your Chinese character dictionary in pleco? I am interested in also learning Chinese eventually and will definitely make sure to check out your products for that. As a sort of off-topic question, if you permit: Do you think learning Chinese and Japanese at the same time could be detrimental or specifically confusing with respect to the writing system? Thank you very much in advance :)
We actually just released the system data via Yomiwa for iOS a few days ago. The Android version should be ready by the end of February. The major difference is that at the moment, the Japanese dictionary doesn't contain very many kanji that aren't either 1) on the Joyo or Jinmeiyo list, or 2) a component of kanji that appear on those lists. The Chinese dictionary therefore has a few hundred entries that aren't in the Japanese dictionary yet, but will be eventually. The other big difference is that the Japanese dictionary contains a lot of sample vocabulary, while the Chinese dictionary doesn't, because that's already a feature included in Pleco. Learning both at the same time will be confusing sometimes, but I think your brain will sort it out eventually. However, the amount and type of confusion will probably be much more tolerable if you stagger them, so that you're already at a reasonable level in one before starting the other.
@@OutlierLinguistics Thank you very much for the thorough answer! That is very good to know. I will keep your advice in mind regarding learning both at the same time :)
Thanks for finally releasing this, but can you explain the logic of the following? "System level info for component 玉. ... Sound series (1 member) This is the sound series for 玉 yù: 国 guó"
Their pronunciations were closer in Middle Chinese, when the simplification first happened. They're still reasonably close in Japanese, too: gyoku (玉) and koku/goku (国).
@@OutlierLinguistics Thanks for the quick reply. Are there any (modern versions of) rime tables or whatnot in print that note such historical simplifications?
So I have the add on for the kanji study app but I don't believe it explains what the different shapes are in the meaning trees. Arrow means derived meaning, circle seems to mean sound loan, and triangle maybe shorthand or modern usage? Explanation would be very helpful 👍 thanks
@@LeiChaobruh That’s exactly right! We’ll be adding better explanations in the next version.
This is amazing! On Xing, wouldnt "Xin" technically be a sound component [as well as semantic]? Since "Xin" is actually more than half way to "Xing". Sheng is techically less than halfway, she-ng, but clearly is the needed ending. Also what is the possibility that in archaic Chinese, all components has a phonetic aspect [as well as semantic]? So much is lost in time. Maybe it could be considered when it was [more] standardize, def after Oracle Bone obviously.
Sorry, I'm just now seeing this for some reason! Whether a component is a sound component or not depends on the sound *when the character was created,* not in modern Mandarin. As for whether it's possible that all components are phonetic, the answer is no. Some semantic components also give sound, and vice versa, but it's far more common for a single component to have a single function within a given character.
An amazing feature, it increases the value of this dictionary substantially. Unfortunately I'm an Android user so waiting for Pleco to apply the fix to have a deeper look at it.
Is it there a plan to include polyphones meanings depending on sound by any chance?
As part of the development of the Tonal Engine prototype I have found 3082 characters that contain polyphones up to now, with some of them having up to 7 different sounds with their correspondent meanings.
As I'm just a beginner learner I have difficulty doing their disambiguation when they are in a sentence as I do not know which meaning goes with which sound on every case.
Have you thought about this sort of feature to be also added by any chance?
We do generally separate meanings according to the pronunciation. It's not exhaustive though-we're focused on providing information that's useful to most learners, so readings/meanings that aren't common in modern Chinese don't generally show up.
Ok thanks for the clarification John.
Would you benefit at all from me sharing the list of polyphones I have with you or you do not find it relevant right now?
The Tonal Engine currently have more than 13k characters in it so it could be that many of the polyphones I have found are not in your dictionary but maybe Edsko de Vries can do his magic with those you have in your dictionary these time again and we all benefit :-)
I mean the 3082 simplified Chinese chars and their polyphones only as I do not have the meanings of most of them linked to their correspondent sounds (yet) as I mentioned.
@@santiagovalencia7709 That could be useful, depending on what the data looks like. Can you shoot me an email and tell me more about it?
Yes, of course. I'll send them all to you on an Excel spreadsheet. Gice me 5mins
Sent. Enjoy :-)
I have also now the [S] in Android btw.
Whoot, nice one!
Thanks! We're pretty excited about this update!
Sir, I did Pay, but how the material it come, it is by post or I have to download? I just click and click I don't the rest.
You should have gotten two emails: one with an activation code for the dictionary and a download link for the posters, and one with a link to access your courses. If you haven’t received them, please email us and we’ll get it sorted out for you!
Hello. I want to try the demo version, but it's not working
@@tioliak Yes, the service we were using for the online demo recently went out of business. We’re looking for a replacement option.
In the meantime, you can get a demo version through Pleco. Just go to Menu > Add-ons > Specialized and you should be able to find it there.
@OutlierLinguistics I'm using Pleco on iOS. Heading through Add-ons, still can't find the "Specialized". Please help
@ There should also be an option to browse all dictionaries, or all paid dictionaries. It should show up there.
@@OutlierLinguistics No, it doesn't show up any hint for demo/trial
@ That’s odd, sorry to hear it. You may want to email Pleco about it (support@pleco.com).
I downloaded the update (I think: I had to try three times due to bad wifi) and I have the system data marked at the end of the definition as 'System level info for component [component here]' but I don't have the S symbol next to graphic components of complex characters. is there some reason for that? Does this work both for traditional and simplified, for instance. Congratulations, anyway, it's a really great feature. Rather similar to Wieger's 'usual groups' method but with 21st century technology.
Do you have Android? Seems like there was an issue with the S not showing up in the component breakdown in Android, but Pleco will be putting out a fix for it shortly.
Yes, it's available for both simplified and traditional.
@@OutlierLinguistics Yes, Android. I recently switched to traditional because under your influence I have launched myself into classical Chinese so I thought that might be it. I'll look out for the update. Thanks.
What about the Expert Edition?
We’ll be releasing an update to the Expert Edition (and the Essentials) in a few weeks!
What does this arrow mean? ⇒
@@bigsmoke4 That meaning is derived from the single arrow meaning above it.
I can't see the update on my android phone. :(
Try going to Menu > Add-ons > Updated. If it doesn’t show up there, you’ll need to contact Pleco (support@pleco.com) and they’ll help you get it sorted out!
Dictionary have paperback form?
Not yet, but we'd like to release a print version in the future.
the dictionary goes in pen drive/CD/is online?
when wil the expert edition be finished?
It is a Pleco dictionary. You have to add it to your Pleco app as a sort of add-on. You can have Pleco for Android and iPhone.
not bad
Does this rely on human error, explaining why characters like 睲 doesn't show up?
Nvm I get it, it's because it's outside of the 3000 chars
@@emport2359 Exactly. That’s not to say there’s zero human error, because of course there probably is. But in this case, it’s because that’s not within the 4000 (not 3000) characters in the dictionary.