Ep. 125 | Get the Lead Out, Keep it in….or a Little Bit of Both
Вставка
- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
- Get the lead out, keep it in….or a little bit of both. Lead in ammunition is a hot topic these days. Seems we can all agree we want to maintain the health and integrity of the environment. And we certainly don’t want to compromise our personal health, our family’s health or anybody who consumes wild game we bring to the table using ammunition containing lead. But what are the real risks? What does the research show us, so we can make the most informed and practical decisions. What would be the economic ramifications if non-lead became the requirement for all ammunition. What would be the performance limitations of certain firearms? These are the questions we ask Nephi Cole from the National shooting Sports foundation. He cites several studies as we chat through what can be a complex and at times controversial topic. So many things need to be taken into consideration. The good news is, products exist so we can all make a personal choice as it relates to the matter. So we have that going for us - which is nice. What’s your opinion on the matter? Do you have any research data that may sway a person’s opinion pendulum - listen in and let us know.
As always, we want to hear your feedback! Let us know if there are any topics you'd like covered on the Vortex Nation podcast by asking us on any one of our social media platforms and using #VortexNationPodcast.
Follow Vortex Nation Podcast on Instagram:
vortexnationpodcast
Same across the pond, funnily enough though half the population in the UK still has lead water pipes in their house and were worried about shooting a Rabbit with a 22LR.. Talk about priorities in the wrong order.
It's worth taking a look at forgotten weapons video on the 7.92x41 CETME cartridge for what is possible in bullet design. It was a aluminum bullet with a copper jacket for shooting full auto to a thousand yards. The equation for kinect energy is half mass times velocity squared. Velocity is four times the value of mass in the equation. Which is the reason we are not shooting one ounce slugs at 750fps in rifles any more. Cheers
I tend to lean towards non toxic. If I have the option to not leave lead all over the landscape I’m going to take it.
Lead comes from the landscape. Why can't it be put back.
@@twintwo1429 Don't forget that uranium, asbestos, and arsenic all come from there too. The point is that we don't put it back in the concentration or disposition in which we find it.
The reason I like copper is I've gotten better performance and recovery on large cervids.
Social pressure, information and personal decisions should dictate what you use. Government intervention is a true slippery slope where firearms are concerned. Decide for yourself, don’t let the government decide for you, or impose your decision on others
I personally support traditional ammunition. I consider myself a conservationist, who does my part in preservation of environment and love of wildlife. I will turn 50 this July and have been an outdoor enthusiast, passing my love of the outdoors to my children. I am a avid hunter and a evolving student of marksmanship. Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion on this platform. I have always enjoyed your topics and insight gentleman.
Living in Northern California, I stopped hunting 6 years ago.
The copper ammo was a big factor. Copper .243 was $70 a box. But forest circus and SPI shut down their woods for "fire danger" for half the season.
... and I try to spend as little of my money in CA as possible. I go to Oregon or Nevada for most stuff I can live without. Or have my family in Kentucky or Idaho mail it to me.
Im kicking around the idea of copper just for the tougher bullet aspect. My shots at deer are usually 30 to 60 yards.
Sounds like the good old nosler partition is still relevant... opens up at lower velocity and holds together and punches through.
I'm convinced its the best hunting bullet available. Not because its the cheapest or highest BC bullet available, but because it's so forgiving. No other bullet opens so consistently at such a wide range of velocities. The partition truly is the gold standard to which all other hunting bullets are measured, even after decades of use.
2200 fps is for the hornady gmx bullets. The barnes ttsx opens around 2,000 and the LRX opens down to 1600-1700 fps. A lead core bullet should open down to about 1400-1500 fps
Lead comes out of the ground, I'm just putting it back one trigger pull at a time.
Now, I have nothing against non-toxic ammo, but there are some issues with it. For shotguns, that issue has been pretty much addressed by choke tube selection.
For rifles, a solid copper bullet is physically bigger per grain than one containing lead. So, in order to maintain the accuracy of a lead alloy bullet, manufacturers might have to look at increasing barrel twist rates to stabilize longer projectiles reliably. It’s one of those things that nobody really considers. As for performance on game, it’s hard to beat some of the characteristics of a lead alloy bullet. Solid copper bullets have been around for a while now, but there’s obviously room for improvement. The biggest problem I’ve found is unreliable expansion of pure copper bullets at lower velocity. Travelling fast they’re fine, but slowing velocity down is where lead alloy bullets seem to perform better.
I finally tried the Swift AFrame 160 gr in my 7mm mag. Wow great results. I took a 170 class whitetail at 94 yards . He went maybe 20 yards. Hit a rib going out with only a nickel sized hole exit. But the damage in the lungs was great.
Same result with a mule doe at 250 .
It went maybe 25 yards. Both had very little blood shot meat.
So now I want to try the solid copper.
As long as I keep my shots above 1800 - 1900 fps.
This should be watched by anyone that is starting out and not listen to the political slants. Facts about this are refreshing. Also the gentleman your guest did really nice of explaining all this. He said 500 years that is 1/2 a millennium on lead bullets not a century. I think of examples Now if lead is going to be call toxic only then materials in wind farms can also be toxic parts, E Cars, batteries, mega tons of waste are full of toxic parts that end up in the ground.
Interesting stuff--a topic I've thought long and hard about. I'm a new hunter, and at first I was all in on non-traditional/lead-free/non-toxic/whatever ammo because of the study that found that lead can be found in meat after being trimmed. I'm more concerned about the impact on the health of my family and lead is demonstrably toxic, no matter how you spin it. But other information that I've read is that this lead does not appear to be a concern even if it is present. Getting high-quality, unbiased evidence to make a rational, educated decision is difficult, apparently, so we're left speculating, but based on the information I've been reading, lead-shot meat isn't a huge concern, especially because I intend to process any animal I happen to harvest myself. If I'm so lucky! Plus we hunters are at the mercy of the current market--good luck finding a box of Barnes right now with deer season in full swing in many states. I'll be hunting with an Accubond bullet in my rifle and a Barnes monolithic in my muzzle loader because that's what I happen to have on hand and I think either will do just fine, but I've never shot a deer so what do I know.
What I do know is that lead-free shotgun shells kill birds just fine--with careful consideration of shot size and choke tube/patterns. I never feel outgunned traipsing into lead-free zones looking for pheasants with a pocket full of bismuth #5 shells. Federal's 7.5 upland steel is my go to for doves, too, to great effect.
All my ammo is lead, but I will admit I might try some GMX. The biggest hold up, is Interlocks, are about $29/100 for bullets; GMX are what $37/50. Thats a very substantial increase, to develop a load. You need at least 100 projectiles to develop and finalize your loads, that's not counting what you load up for hunting.
It's a shame nonlead ammo is so overpriced. It can't be that much more expensive to make but if the consumer demand is low the price will remain high. I think the biggest drawback is rifles developed to shoot lead don't always like the longer projectiles of a similar weight. I read that the copper bullets retain weight well so lighter bullets may perform well. The longer projectiles can have a higher BC for a similar weight lead bullet. I believe the copper bullets require more velocity to expand than copper. At the end of the day I believe if the differences between copper and lead are considered, there will not be many situations where a copper bullet will not give satisfactory performance.
@@5000rgb non lead bullets are expensive but not “over priced”. Copper costs more than lead and its hard to machine.
I like to hunt with "vintage" or "weird" guns cast lead it would take a hole subset of hunters out of the field
I’m so torn about this. My wife and I will be starting a family soon and I want a chest freezer full of wild game. Part off me thinks the threat of lead in meat of negligible but on the other hand I can’t be positive. I may be overthinking the whole issue, and I certainly don’t want to bankrupt myself.
But what DOES make me curious about copper is the idea I can get better performance out of my 30-30 using a 120 grain bullet. It may be marketing hype but I’ve heard stories of monoliths punching way above their class.
Your overthinking it.
@@lucasvaughn629how so?
Many angles here, but one place to look is the attack on the 2A. Chipping away one small win at a time is the long game. Monolithic only means more expensive. More expensive means less shooting. Less shooting means less interest and less involvement passed to the next generation. One generation later, we’ll be wondering why there are even less hunters and shooters. Reuben touched briefly on this at 58 minutes.
As I’ve got into reloading I’ve loaded some of each. I have more of an interest in a quality hunting bullet. Whatever shoots best!
at the start of the conversation, it was pointed out that the "hunter" would go for a whole season waiting to shoot that deer, cost of the bullet would not be an issue in this situation.
basic summary, there are situations where lead free ammunition is appropriate, but a blanket ban is not reasonable. Alternatives such as tungsten are themselves found to be toxic and in some cases will cause more problems in the individual animals (if it escapes), and the environment.
intelligent rules on where and how specific projectile types are appropriate, should be incorporated into the existing rules on calibre, fire arm type etc. All hunters should get behind the wholistic concept of ethical hunting, which includes appropriate equipment.
The other issue that needs to be covered, that was not covered in this conversation is buildup. Its not the lead from one hunter that is the issue, its the lead from the 10,000 hunters that year, combined with the 10,000 the year before, and the year before that. If you watch gold panning videos, the panner will find bullets and lead shot over and over again while searching for those gold fragments. The lead is not going away in a hurry, but is slowly building up as generation after generation hunt the area.
A heavily hunted area, especially a "designated area" is definitely somewhere that should use lead free.
anyone who has gone to a popular lagoon the first day of waterfowl hunting season will understand the sheer amount of lead that was being dumped into the lagoon by the hunters. A single hunter would deposit upwards of 10lb, multiplied by 100+ hunters, per day for the entire season. In just one season, a single lagoon can have upwards of 50,000+lb of lead shot spread specifically at the lagoon itself. within a couple of decades, the lagoon is effectively toxic to waterfowl.
@@pepperoni-prepper you make some good points.
There is a larger issue for water fowl and other aquatic species. It’s called fluoride. It is more toxic than Lead and just slightly less than arsenic.
Lead introduces into the environment is a problem. The bigger problem is another heavy metal called fluoride that is dripped into nearly 90% of potable water. The build up from this toxic heavy metal is nearly as stunning as the lack of understanding of it.
@@HarrisonCountyStudio fluoride is not a heavy metal. It’s a halogen gas. It’s nowhere near the heavy metals on the periodic table.
@@pepperoni-prepper did you just say that a single Hunter deposits 10lb of lead in one day in a single lagoon? What are you talking about? That would be 160 shells worth of shot. Do you normally shoot 6 and a half boxes of shells on a single day? Normally, when I’m waterfowl hunting, I shoot a box max. That’s 20-25 shells. Even if I limit out, I’ve shot maybe 30. Most of the time I only shoot a handful of shells.
The point still stands that lots of lead is being added to these places, but the amount is a fraction of the problem you’re claiming.
I honestly don’t understand why it’s so controversial other than some people throwing a fit because somebody is telling them what to do. I grew up hunting, and all those bullets were lead. I switched to copper a couple years ago, and I’ve seen absolutely no difference in terms of terminal performance. I do think another useful analysis was done by Ron Spomer when he discusses the performance of copper bullets. That guy has been around a long time and shot a lot of game, and his conclusion can be summed up as such: copper bullets do the job just as well as any lead core bullet.
Lol, for 2 -3 times the money. Thanks, but I'll stay with lead either cast or jacketed
@@mjex1965 I generally haven’t seen that in the part of the country I’m from (Montana). For what I hunt with (300 Win Mag and 7-08 Rem), the cost is generally within $5 of each other. Unless you’re shooting bottom end stuff.
Great video. Thank you for putting on.
Solid episode on a very controversial topic.
What about silver bullets?
Steel Shot and Minnesota game laws out priced me year's ago ,, I can get large mallard at the grocery store for $$ 22.00 each or go on a 4 day hunting trip western Minnesota for $$ 700.00 a person ....
I was with it until the 30-06 got compared to the white New Balance.
I always thought that that lead creates an oxidative coating around it, thus limiting it's spread into the environment from bullets.
Monolithic bullet
California condors lifespan is 60 years... some eagles 30ish. This is why there are no studies showing that an owl has died from lead poisoning. Average owl life span is 9-12 years.
Statistics is a fickle game. Environmentalists have been using modified stats... you can always play with the numbers. If this was a real danger. The lifespan of a gunsmith would be less than an average person... and we all know insurance companies. They wouldn't give pro shooters or gunsmiths life insurance if it was a real, measurable difference.
M855 has lead? M855A1 does not. In my understanding. But, a civilian cannot buy A1? Wierd.
Perhaps this old video is why they invented the "green" bullet? I read that it had hotter powder to achieve similar ballistics in a carbine. Then i read that it is unsafe, pressures beyond mil spec.
I would bet the wound/loss of ducks is 30-40%
What should happen is change the name to Traditional and nontraditional. Why toxic the Lehman will freak with toxic.
yiu need to keep lead in your creedmore fellas ! it will never be a hunting cartridge !
I want to preface this by saying that I am in no way a fanboy of the 6.5 Creedmoor -- I think there are way better, more adequate cartridges for hunting. I use a 25-06 for most things and do not even own a Creedmoor of any sorts. This being said, I hate to burst your bubble, but the 6.5 Creedmoor is a fine hunting cartridge. It's comparable to the venerable 6.5x55 Swedish in ballistics. The Swede, known all over Europe as being one of the most effective cartridges devised. They both have their limits, though, and I think that's where a lot of the guff comes from. It's adequate for around the same stuff as my cartridge, the 25-06 Remington. Those being whitetail deer, mule deer, small to medium sized antelope, and maybe larger antelope or elk at reasonable distances with good shot placement. Though not ideal for larger species, it's proven itself around the world as not only a target cartridge, but a hunting cartridge as well. People just need to be smart about it if they use it for hunting, just as any cartridge.
As an aside, with the plethora of heavier .257 projectiles coming out (primarily heavier monolithics), the 25-06 is really advancing into a whole new class of lethality, if you have the right twist barrel and reload like I do.
NonToxic Buckshot 🤔🤫
4FKNReal