More of America's Lost Metro Systems
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- Опубліковано 16 чер 2024
- We jump right back into more lost metro systems including Phoenix's ValTrans line, Rochester's subway, and Seattle's attempt at a metro and a monorail. This is the second part of America's Lost Metro Systems. This is More of America's Lost Metro Systems.
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Sadly our parents and grandparents embraced the automobile and suburban living to such an extent that it made public transit impossible except at a huge taxpayer subsidy. Now we're stuck with the suburban hellscape that they built.
I’m so angry at these generations and their choices but you can’t really blame them. The propaganda was too influential and enticing especially coming out of decades of war and economic decline. The destruction of cities and construction of highways was very much planned for by the government and they used the heightened socioeconomic tensions of the era to get the public’s support.
My parents didn’t make that decision, but when they came to America they certainly had to live with it
America is weird compared to other places I’ve been. It decided awful wastelands of plastic-sided houses and ugly strip malls were better endeavours. And oddly, despite being very rich, many of its cities like the one my parents chose to settle in are quite awful, and governments seem to have written many of them off as irredeemable. These cities won’t get better if they aren’t invested in.
@@DanTheCaptain Oh I can blame them, because the generations in America made these decisions when others did not. Meanwhile my parents’ homeland was devastated after the second world war but didn’t go down the American path of development. And yet here in America, a country left largely unscathed during the war except for its overseas colonies razed its cities and countryside to make some of the worst development strategies in the western world.
@@saldol9862Well previous generations didn’t have access to automobiles, so let’s not jump to being Captain Hindsight.
Public transit is subsidized everywhere in the world, its not a problem apparently.
Only in the US every public service has to be "profitable" (see your sub-par expensive healthcare system).
When I was a kid in the 70s, the noisy expressway that is now called I-590 was right behind my grandfather's house. He told me that there had been a train there before the expressway. I didn't learn about the Rochester Subway until after he died. I wish I could ask him more about what Rochester was like before the expressways.
In the Fifties, there was a referendum approved by Rochester voters to upgrade and expand the subway. Politicians ignored it, and built highways instead.
@@pilsudski36 That's sad, but very typical of the time. Guys like Robert Moses were really pushing government hard to just plow through people's lives and build more ugly highways where they didn't belong. Few managed to fight it.
Atlanta thanks Seattle, but in all fairness the Atlanta MARTA was initially envisioned to go to Cobb Co as well as Gwinnett, but those counties overwhelmingly voted it down. So MARTA can only run in Fulton and Dekalb counties, later to be joined by Clayton County. Even now voters have voted down MARTA in those counties (mostly by putting it on the ballot in the elections with the least amount of turnout). As a person who lives in Dekalb, I say to all those voters...enjoy your soul crushing gridlock. That's what you voted for, and don't expect that we will accommodate you in any way that will reduce OUR quality of life. This would make a great video just talking about this system
I read somewhere that Clayton County also rejected MARTA in the first ballot initiative.
I really hate the idea of allowing these things to be put to vote
Reminds me how Arlington, TX voted several times against establishing a transit agency but voted to raise taxes for a stadium. Because providing corporate sportsball is more important than basic public services
As a person who grew up in Gwinnett before i moved to Chicago...I'm still not over it.
Bigmoodenergy has a good video on Marta's foundations
@@edwardmiessner6502Yes this is true but they voted to join later
The Seattle Monorail was actually slightly longer than it is today. The last stop was across the street where Westlake Park is now. When they built Westlake Mall, they had to move the tracks closer together and it was just easier to put the last stop on the outside of the mall.
The bus tunnel rails and overhead wires turned out to be all wrong for modern light rail, and everything had to be ripped out and replaced. Then they still ran some bus lines alongside the light rail until the site of the bus terminal loop at the end of the tunnel was bought by a developer and they kicked the busses out for good.
The original rails in the 1990 bus tunnel were known to be shoddy when they were installed. They were just symbolic, because nobody knew when rail might come, it was probably in the far future if ever. In the gap between the 1990 tunnel and the 2009 Link opening. the industry evolved to low-floor trains for wheelchairs and convenience, so the roadbed had to be lowered for Link anyway.
As a Seattle resident from 1979-80 and from 1991-93, I was dismayed at the lack of rail transit, though at least they had a superior bus system. Today the situation has much improved and on two recent trips I used the light rail to get from the airport to downtown and from Northgate to downtown. I'll be glad to see the system extended to the Eastside. Atlanta's system is hamstrung by the fact that 3 of the 5 counties in the metro area rejected MARTA and now have only their own bus systems, while the downtown streetcar is really only a novelty like the Detroit peoplemover.
We want part 3 absolutely ❤
The US is sadly where good transit projects go to die.
Most of our transit systems are turning into rolling homeless camps…thanks to minimal policing and drug decriminalization. Ask LA and Frisco about that.
Mexico is not much better
@@jamescooley5744reopen the asylums
@@jamescooley5744 Well, this is what happens when you build car dependent cities. Cars have ruined cities and have made them expensive to live in.
Except New York
I’m from Phoenix and when I’m stuck in traffic I think of this.
The valley metro is going through massive expansion in the next couple of years. Phoenix (and Tempe, Mesa) doesn’t get enough credit for this rail system. I just wish it would go to the football stadium past Glendale.
People are not going to wait in 100+ degree weather to wait for a glorified streetcar filled with bums.
@@patlynch6517 right I’m so excited it’s going to the west and south sides of the city.
@@jamescooley5744 122,000 people use valley metro on any given week day in Phoenix. 36 million rides a year. That’s with it really only relying on buses. So people r using it bad weather or not. More people would use it if there were better rail systems. Plus at this point we’re a city of 5 million. It’s really one of the only ways to fix traffic at this point. Plus we could even sell passes that run October - March for when the weather is nice for those who don’t want to be in the heat.
@@jamescooley5744
the bums in Phoenix are better behaved. The transit enforcement workers will kick them off the metro if their fare is not paid.
Here in Seattle, the bums are left alone, and do what they please.
(That’s also true for Portland and the Bay Area as far as I can tell.)
4:19 the rochester metro area is generally listed at right about 1 million. Like most older cities white flight to the suburbs hit hard.
Part 3 and look into Jacksonville. There's a wealth of info about the current skyway (a monorail), and it's expansion plans. And how the city has been trying to force a conversion from monorail to autonomously driven vehicles (which don't actually work yet) since 2017.
So the piece you're missing about Phoenix is that its transit agency, Valley Metro, has been able to learn from the mistakes of earlier systems & as a result its service quality is honestly far superior to a lot of other cities with comparable systems.
The light rail line connects with local arterial bus routes at every station, making it possible to get from anywhere to anywhere else in the valley with usually just one transfer. There's seamless fare integration & way finding, so those transfers are all really straightforward. And the trains themselves have signal priority at every intersection, which means two things. 1: they're almost always on-time. 2: the system has comparable performance in terms of average speed & trip times to fully-separated rapid transit systems like the Chicago El. 3: it got built faster & without massive budget hikes, the bane of transit systems elsewhere. Compare Valley Metro's budget and build time per rider to Seattle's Link (which opened the same year), & it flips the script on which system is the better performer. And that success has translated into voter support: in 2019, we defeated Prop 105 (a Koch-funded ballot measure to shut down the light rail system by preventing Phoenix from budgeisny money for it) by a 70% margin.
If there's a missed opportunity to be found in Phoenix, it's that Maricopa County has been working on a regional rail system for over a decade now, and just when IIJA made federal funding available for it, the county took it out of the planned project list for the renewal of their half-cent sales tax that funds transportation projects. No voter input on that, it was a decision made by the Mayors, agency heads, & industry representatives on the Maricopa Association of Governments Transportation Policy Committee.
It’s insane to think that in Phoenix, sales tax funding for freeways and transit was put in separate bills in the 80s, but after the turn of the millennium, transit funding was put in the freeway funding bill. A few strange remnants still exist of old transit plans. In the downtown tunnel on I-10, there are a few lanes that are gated off, which were meant to be a bus terminal, but the city never got the funding for it while I-10 was under construction. Also, I-10 in the city limits was built with future transit in mind due to a voter proposition back in 1973. Basically, the median had to be available for mass transit in case the city ever decided to build any along I-10. Nowadays, there’s the proposed I-10 West light rail extension, though that probably won’t open up for another 10 or so years.
The I-10 West Extension is going to open in 6 years.
@@danielportillo9266 Not likely. It has no sure funding beyond prelim engineering. After that, Prop 400 provides only 30 percent of its funding.
Omaha, Nebraska’s metro is a great tragedy
Omaha actually proposed a metro system?
Same with milwaukee
take a look at the Minnesota twin cities subway proposal in the late 60s. it’s pretty cool
Oh wow, I had no idea MARTA was given to Atlanta from seattle! that's wild
Sometimes I think what Seattle has now is better, other tines, Forward Thrust might have been better. I use LINK 5-7 days a week, ironically, watching this video while aboard LInk.
Phoenix will keep expanding the light rail in the coming years. It's sad that the voters voted no on the metro.
I question why we in America even allow these things to be voted on in plebiscites instead of keeping it behind closed doors, and attaching it to the end of an omnibus bill, just like we do for a thousand other things.
@@saldol9862 We allow this to happen because of the big oil companies.
How will Phoenix expand the light rail so long as the far-right state government blocks use of city and county funds for light rail beyond current modest extensions?
@@mairhart With the city sales tax, public transportation funds, and federal grants
@@mairhartthe state executive offices in AZ have been captured by Democrats in the last three cycles, and the legislature is likely to follow this year. Doug Ducey is no longer able to threaten to veto any rail or transit expansion, because he hasn't been Governor for two years.
The *real* challenge is convincing Sun Belt Democrats who've been dependent on cars their entire lives that alternatives are worth investing in. There are people in AZ doing that good work, but they need all the help they can get.
4:14: If you look at the bridges in this shot, you can see the Court St. Bridge, as it has 2 levels. The subway ran on the lower level (originally it was the Erie Canal bridge, before the road level was added after the canal was drained), and it still exists today. There is the remnants of a station under the Library (big building on the right), and then another one at the old City Hall (the sorter building just left of the tower with the 'winged' sculpture on the top).
4:53: this is how the Court St. bridge looked when it carried the Erie Canal...
Streetcars globally were being shut down in Japan more than 90% of their streetcars are gone they were converted into buses and rapid transit subways and ELs
Streetcars (trams) still operate in hundreds of cities in Europe, Asia and North Africa.
And the more active streetcars were interurban lines that developed into many of the heavy rail commuter lines serving the large cities.
That's why by the time busses came around the trams were shut down. All the trams that got heavy use were already being converted to heavy rail.
That's not 44th Avenue in Phoenix, It's 45th Street. 44th Avenue is a small residential street across town on the edge of Glendale.
1:48 Reminds me of the "accidental" fire that happened at Paddington tram depot in Brisbane in the 60s, while Clem Jones was Lord Mayor and advocating for the tram system to be ripped up! I'm not usually one to believe a conspiracy theory, but if I had to pick one it would definitely be that the Paddington depot fire was very much intentional lol
You should do a video on Vancouver’s skytrain system, and what it looks like when you add density laws to station sites to alleviate housing issues in one of the most expensive cities in North America.
Just binged your whole channel, and it’s really great so far! I especially like your sense of humour. Best wishes for your channel, and I’m sure it will grow a lot if you keep it up
Enjoyable and informative. The Phoenix section was particularly interesting. What a different place it could've been.
Yes to a Part Three video.🙂👍
A part 3 would be great 🙏🏻
For a potential part 3 there is a 1914 Providence RI subway proposal, which they built the east side tunnel for. It didn’t really go anywhere and there isn’t much info on it, but it’s interesting none the less.
I'm hoping for LA to be included in part 3
It just might!
Was it the one from the 40s?
@grahamturner2640 Yeah, I'm referring to the original transit plans for LA that existed before the 1980s Proposition A, where LA's current Metro system came from
Great video! Would love to see you talk about the StL plans. (Not sure if they’re public but I saw an old map from the late 80’s or early 90’s in an office once that had a great network planned out. Unfortunately we’ve only gotten 2 of the 10 or so planned metro lines and are about to build an LRT for the 3rd
Yes, please make a third video as I really appreciate your work, filled with interesting information I didn’t know.
Am especially interested in smaller cities plans for metros and I personally have a love for “metros” with tram equipment.
By the way, has LA had any early plans for a metro, like in the 1920’s or 1930’s?
LA had streetcars until five car-related companies colluded to buy up the streetcar companies and close them.
Where's almighty LA Metro's segment? 🤔
3:55 I think a good place to look would be Surrey or Burnaby in BC
Both were (and still are) rather sprawling areas with low density houses, but over the course of 30ish years the areas around the Skytrain stations have become massive hubs for TOD. Look at Metrotown for example, or even Surrey Central. Both are major TOD sites that were enabled by the Skytrain in otherwise sprawling areas. Or for a newer example, Brentwood Town Centre which has also had massive development ever since the Millennium Line opened.
So I think a similar pattern would likely form had the Phoenix Skytrain plan passed.
"High Density Growth along its stations." Hm. Seen the apartment complexes in downtown Mesa by the Dobson and Main stations recently?
The federal government has been subsidizing new slum apartments near mass transit corridors in California. No doubt it's happening there too.
A part 3 please!
Need a part 3 with San Diego’s proposed 1975 subway
Honestly, they should have extended the Tijuana Trolley to Lindbergh Field and leave everything else to buses.
@@floycewhite6991 they should’ve invested all the money they spent on freeways on a competent transit system
Interesting. Do a part 3.
Atlanta would’ve had 4 additional lines, but they were never built for various reasons, however, there are tunnel provisions for all 4 of these lines that do exist and are u unused today
Transit alone isn’t enough. Phoenix planning terms of traffic flow, land use and building layout wasn’t helping due to codes.
I think it’s better for places like Phoenix and Las Vegas to build new transit and pedestrian oriented neighborhoods on the outskirts.
Chicago circle line?
How can you build for pedestrians in a place where it's too hot to walk even at night for 3 months out of the year, and during the day for 4 months?
@@floycewhite6991 Most parts of country has climate issues for 3 months.
Las Vegas has strong urban heat island effect. It used to have 60s-70s nights decades ago.
Have you heard of canopies in between mid-rise buildings, neck coolers?
@@Cyrus992 The only way to build a comfortable environment for an all-pedestrian city is to make everything indoors. 30-story apartments all connected by more or less airport shopping hallways and subways. Heck, you could do it the Saudi Disney World Hotel Fantasy City way and stack 'em all in an A-frame building miles long. But nobody could escape what it would really be: a Section 8 dystopia.
@@floycewhite6991 Saudi Arabia especially certain areas like Dubai has worse summers than Las Vegas
It would be cool to look at some of Chicago's mid-century transit plans. They had a big subway plan from 1939 that was only partially developed. Interestingly, it included streetcar subways, similar to Boston's Green Line. There was a separate proposal from the 50s or 60s that proposed eliminating the Loop and replacing it with a new subway under Franklin.
Another city to look at would be Denver and their FasTrack program. The program promised a lot of rail expansion when it was passed in the early 2000s, but it has only delivered a fraction of it. If this counts as a 'lost metro' by your definition, it could be worth exploring.
The original Chicago subway plans were like Philly: Streetcars were going to run next to the subway in the downtown areas. As late as 1950, there was a proposal for a Madison Street streetcar subway that would have fed streetcar lines into Grant Park and the lakefront museums.
2:56 it's 44th St.
44th Ave is on the west side of town, west of the I-17 and Metrocenter
Valley Metro Rail gets decent ridership, like 33000 per day, which is not bad for a single line.
Certainly doing better than Cap Metro Rail in Austin which is getting about 1000 per day.
Hey urban dox will please make a part 3 that includes Buffalo NY and Pittsburgh rail systems
San Diego county was intending to have a bart style metro system that was scrapped for light rail
Since the trolley runs mostly on existing rail beds, what's the difference? San Diego would never have built a cut-and-cover subway where it was needed on University Ave., where the 7 bus was always packed.
@@floycewhite6991 the “trolley” mostly runs on freight railroad branch lines with few sections of exclusive row. The result of this is a large gap between the train floor and platform, the trains are slow and stations are placed further from where people live and commute to. Rapid transit like bart are most often faster than driving, even during peak hour. In San Diego, trains are still slower. Funny thing is mts seems to not want any grade separation by having pedestrian crossings at every station when this could easily be avoided.
@@msand3680the trolley has no excuse for being slow. mts must upgrade the trolley.
First! Hope America builds these fast!
Never gonna happen
Fast is 15-20 years.
This country too pathetic
the US effectively cannot build subways, and in the rare occasions when small extensions are built (NYC) the costs are billions$ per mile
@@alquinn8576 That is a good way of describing it.
Around 1950, Detroit had a plan to build Chicago style rapid transit in the medians of the freeways being constructed. A network of trolley buses and PCC streetcars wwould have fed the rapid transit lines. This didn't sit well with the "Big Three" auto builders. When the freeways were built, the medians had enough room for two tracks - but not enough room for the stations. (Scource: Dcouments from SEMCOG: Southeastern Michigan Council of Governments)
Part 3!!
No mention of the tracks in the tunnel being incompatable and needing to be 100% replaced once light rail actually happenned
Part 3.
The Seattle story irritates me beyond words after having lived in that area for about one year. They deserve the terrible traffic they have.
I’m curious about the midwest/rust belt cities whose hay day lasted beyond the street car network. & other mid tier cities who typically get passed because their not big or weren’t big during the peak.
What other cities have a lost metro or a smaller city with transit?
Manchester in the Uk
You should do a video on rail transit in Austin, Texas.
Just guessing from the Rochester map that the line was probably designed to take people from the nicer streetcar suburb type neighborhoods in the southeast and bring them to the more industrialized northwest, where you'd find things like Kodak plants. Really, any conversation about Rochester transit probably has to include Kodak and race. These two topics will explain a lot. I don't think a transit system outside of the buses would have ever worked after losing the first one. Anyway, fun fact. That part of the 490 that took over that part of the old subway line? It was filled in with dirt. There's luxury apartments on it now. I don't know who the heck they could even be for, but that's what happened.
Do you think Rochester should have evicted any race that wouldn't assimilate?
I wish with every bone in my body that Rochester kept its subway
You should do one on Miami.
Miami? More like the state of Florida with the killed bullet train bill.
Miami-Dade County has a good bus system. But the problem is the stigma of riding the bus and car-dependency.
@freddieban nah the bus sucks it takes 2 hours to get to downtown from the suburbs. It doesn't even take that long during rush hour in a car.
@Distress. Huh?! What suburbs is that? The only 2 hours to downtown is Homestead taking the 38 north(with train). Most metrobus routes are connected to a MetroRail station. No need to take a bus to downtown. Hell, I even don't drive there nor South Beach.
Part 3 please
Already in the works!
Cincinati, wall street crash prevented furthur development, downfall never opened system, shame !
Plus most of the interurnan lines that were supposed to use the subway went broke, and the nonestandard Cincinnati streetcar track gauge precluded the city streetcars and interurbans from sharing the tunnel.
is there a simple tool to make nice subway maps like that?
The republican legislators said they wouldn't accept federal grants which is why the light rail took so long to get started. The reasoning behind this includes dislike of the democratic party that came up with the grants. Now we suffer with the worst traffic jams outside of Los Angeles and San Diego.
California couldn't meet its air pollution standards in the '90s because the planners never expected so many millions of Mexicans to flood the state. A quarter of drivers had unregistered and uninsured cars. Had California controlled the border, and had the state never allowed the private energy-trading fiasco to loot public funds, the roads and freeways would have expanded sufficiently to meet the need.
Honestly attitude are changing about trains in Phoenix. But they really need to clean up valley metro in order for voters to take it more seriously.
What exactly do you mean by "clean up?" The trains and buses are extraordinarily well-maintained, better than most other North American transit agencies' fleets. There are trash bins in every station, and custodial staff are ubiquitous, busy, and responsive.
Or do you simply mean that you don't want to ride a bus with a representative slice of Phoenix's public? And if that's the case, what exactly do you think *public* transportation is supposed to be for?
A part 3 video would be nice.
Sad
Nice video, but the only time I used mass transit in the last ten years was to pick up my car from the shop. Just too crime ridden. Besides, the operators make mass transit as useless and expensive as possible (so they have a ready excuse to feed at the public trough).
C. 1:45
so… public transit in Phoenix is literally 1984?
We have a light rail and streetcar that will expand in the coming years.
What a cute voice you have.
Rochester, even back in the day of the trolley cars was always a spread out city, even before the expressways. Interurbans between Rochester and Syracuse were high speed and topped out at 90 MPH in some areas but frequent stops to support the lines financially made it impractical. Some of that Right of Way is still visible but not used.
Even if I490 or I590 were not built where they are now, additional destruction to the urban area would be necessary to Somehow access the NYS Thruway which was completed in 1954 before the Interstate Highway Act. (In many ways, the specs for the Thruway are far Superior to your typical Interstate at the time)
Also, Rochester is a city in major decline and crime runs rampant due to society breakdown. Downtown with all of its improvements is a ghost town, especially when compared to Syracuse, 90 minutes to the East. So there isn't any incentive to build anything there, and even the suburbs are becoming crime ridden as well. So throwing money at poorly run cities like this are not going to solve the problems because the people currently in charge would just screw it up. Foamers have to understand that there is a reason why these systems are falling apart and it isn't always just the expansion of freeways and not everyone wants to live in an urbanized area.
Light rail is useless! Still blocks traffic and/or gets stuck in it!! Above or below street level is the only logical way.
Light rail is fine if it follows railroad rights of way or has protected lanes and stop lights. It's not ideal, but underground construction and maintenance costs are killing the nation's existing subway systems.
Busway (bus rapid transit) systems that go on their own roads - typically old rail rights-of-way - is another excellent idea...just look at Pittsburgh as an excellent example of that.
Phoenix's at-grade light rail is just as fast as the Chicago El. Is the El useless?
Or do you think the point of transit is to stay out of the way so cars can get where they're going without the minor inconvenience of one more cross-traffic vehicle?
@@jmchristoph Baltimore's light rail system is a disaster because the trains are stuck in traffic. The system doesn't have consistently protected lanes, nor is it coordinated with traffic lights. The trains can be blocked by other vehicles.
The same is true of D.C.'s H Street streetcar line.
Phoenix's light rail is so much better because it has both dedicated lanes and priority at traffic lights. The trains zoom right past the traffic.
The point of transit is to be measurably faster than car traffic, enough to persuade people to leave their cars behind.
I encourage the OP to learn why the Seattle monorail and subway plans failed, and why light rail there is faster than riding the bus.