I don't fly a Cirrus but I deal with them a lot where I work at the moment (there's a Cirrus repair station on the field). The circuit breakers with the trim if I recall is by your right leg. Unless you've been in an emergency in an aircraft it's hard to put into perspective just how quick these things happen. You can familiarize yourself all you want but in an emergency it's hard to overcome the fear no matter how much you think it won't. From my own experience, even something simple as mentally simulating the emergency when you're bored at home can help a bit (just sitting with your eyes closed and imagining the actions you would take in say a partial engine failure on take off). Even knowing how well I responded to my own emergency, I'm not sure how I would respond to a trim runaway. Pulling a circuit breaker might seem simple but imagine doing it while fighting for control of the airplane with your hand bouncing around as you're trying to pull the right breaker while you have likely seconds before the plane stalls out. Anyways this is very tragic and honestly will have me bringing it up with those I know who fly Cirrus aircraft (including my bosses) about how they would handle a trim runaway. The best way to respect this gentleman's death is to learn from his mistakes so we can try to prevent this from happening again.
So, I read the description first, so I knew exactly what was going to happen, and I decided to listen, anyway. In the process, I learned some things about what happens in cases like this, and I gained even more admiration for the way the aviation community responds to emergencies. Thanks for this.
@@warsurplus Funny how the max mcas was never an issue outside of NA. The training standards in these dogshit east asian airlines is to blame. Not the actual aircraft.
I can't give a URL because of chad oh bann neng but for you commenters to get an idea of all that the controller was handling search for Fatal Plane Crash At Montgomery Field After Student Pilot Declares An Emergency | N700YZ Crash Go to 3:30 or watch it all. She handled a lot of planes, lot of airfield interactions, back to back, yet stayed proactive and I think you'll find she acted correctly and expediently. Then toss in an unidentified message! But she didn't lollygag, nor freeze up; she kept rocking it IMO.
Pay close attention. That was an UNIDENTIFIED trim emergency indication. She didn't fail to act whatsoever. First, she asked who said that, and without hesitation continued to direct other actions with other craft, and made the instruction to go around without even being acknowledged on her query as to "who said that?" So it sounds like the "controller inaction" musings are out of line, IMO.
You can't post youtube links on youtube without worrying about bans? I remember when you literally physically could not post comments with links. Why would they enable that function only to start banning for it?
@@Dexi Not banning; chad oh banning. If I spell out what I just wrote, it's immediately flagged. That's right. Every time I correctly spell out chad oh banning, it gets chad oh band. Yew tewb, making the world ,much less productive and enjoyable every day.
@@j_taylor based on how close he crashed to the runway he probably did not have the altitude or engine power to recover if the trim sent him nose down.(trying to climb with trim hard down is like accelerating in your car while pressing the brakes)
this tape kinda shocks me. I can't speculate on what exactly happened, but the fact that the pilot managed to have the word "emergency" on the frequency and the controllers didn't stop what they were doing to figure out what was going on seems strange. the fear in that pilot's last transmission is heartbreaking.
It sounds like they were trying to divert traffic from the field, all they know is that they have an aircraft with control issues, they probably were extremely concerned about spacing aircraft in that situation
What is not on this version of the recording was that the airspace was very crowded with aircraft doing touch-and-goes, including the accident aircraft. The controllers were dealing with a number of closely spaced aircraft in the pattern as well as ground traffic. On top of that, the emergency aircraft never identified himself, which is one of the reasons the controller gave him the go-around instruction. While it may not have changed the outcome, it would have minimally provided information to the controller to focus on his aircraft.
What did you expect her to do exactly? He said he had emergency and his mic was stuck at the same time. So again what exactly was she supposed to do in that situation? planes cant just stop in the air and unfortunately there was nothing that she could do about him having a trim issue other then move people out the way. This all happened literally within 20-25 seconds. from the his emergency transmission to the unfortunate crash. may he RIP
Damn…so close to landing…and the poor tower controller. You could hear how upset she was but was keeping it together. But I do have a genuine question, I flew cirrus and got my HP in them. We were always trained to yank the AP circuit to completely remove the AP from controlling the aircraft if it didn’t deactivate. Usually they are collared a colored ring to make it easier to get in an emergency. Is this not a standard teaching, or do we think he just didn’t have time? Regardless, fly high pilot, you finally got real wings
If he yanked the CB breaker as he was ascending with the stick pulled back far to compensate, he would enter a stall which appears to be exactly what happened. This is essentially the same as what happened to the Cirrus in Houston - she raised flaps on a go around and it increased the stall speed causing a stall into a vehicle.
Curious to hear from owners / mechanics. How hard is it to override full trim using normal inputs (per the POH)? How hard is it to identify the trim breakers on the side panel? Does trim return to neutral if the breaker is pulled or does it stay in the last position?
In very small aircraft it is *usually* possible to fly out of trim with more or less strong force applied to the controls. I don't know about the specific type. The increased workload in that phase of the flight could have been too much. If the trim cannot be counteracted with force and there is an electric actuator then there are breakers and procedures to be used (and to be trained with). When the actuator is disabled the trim will remain in position and you need manual operation to move it.
Cirrus trim is weird though because I don’t think it actually moves a trim tab. It’s all driven through the autopilot servos I believe. There’s no wheel.
NTSB final report came out several months ago. They did not find a runaway trim issue. They concluded that the pilot simply stalled the aircraft while going around. The Garmin ESP activated but was not able to prevent a crash.
Pull the breaker on the trim and manually actuate. Always be ready to apply full power. Work the problem from higher altitude. Do not lose your composure.
Easy to say but easier said than done.The brain doesnt work in an emergency.Everything you learned is gone when theres such a short time to deal with said problem.The brain goes into fight or flight mode and shuts every other thought pattern down as unneeded at that moment but is filling you with adrenaline instead.
Easier said than done. This reportedly was a low time student pilot solo and I would think that maybe he may not have known to pull a breaker during this situation. Either way whether he knew or not, malfunctioning electric trim can get out of hand if you don’t handle it properly, even for experienced pilots. So sad to hear how scared he was the last moments of his life.
Unfortunately, trim runaway is really only particularly stressed at the airline level. It really should be integrated into GA training as well, especially with GA aircrafts having more AP installed
I would have helped ATC if the pilot identified himself. I am so happy that everyone dropped everything to do what they can to help regardless of the tragic outcome.
The POH says "It is possible to easily override full trim or autopilot inputs by using normal control inputs"....It does not mention how much force is required.... It's quite possible that the pilot became overwhelmed and lost control... So sad.
Very sad. RIP . Unfortunate because I feel a go around would’ve given ample time albeit with high control forces to disconnect the trim and attempt to land once the situation is over.
Because it is impossible to perfectly balance a plane due to passengers and cargo, a plane will often want to pitch up or down depending on if the nose is heavy or the tail. Trim helps balance things out, so you are not always fighting the controls. There is often a rocker switch on the yoke that when pushed up or down brings the nose up or down. Sounds like his switch got stuck. If the trim runs all the way nose down or nose up, to the pilot it will eventually get super hard to move the yoke. Many pounds of force. (I'm leaving out a lot of details here and over simplifying things, but I think you'll get the jest.)
Think of it like if you had to drive around a long curve, and you could turn a wheel in your car that keeps the steering wheeling turned a little bit, so you can turn the wheel a little bit less physically. You can basically set a turn left or turn right trim. In planes it's nose-up/nose-down. You set it so you don't have to manhandle the controls as much. Now imagine this wheel turned too much and sent you into the wall. This is a runaway. If the trim point the nose too high up, you get a stall risk.
I am going to fly SR20 in a few months, too. I really can hope for everybody that such a trim runaway will not occur to us and the reason for this issue may be found soon. R.I.P. to the pilot onboard.
Learn the procedure from AFM/POH prior your flight and in case of trim runaway, follow the procedure. In this case, it’s highly likely that the procedure was not followed.
@@spartanslaxwax Someone looking straight at the ground, that's who. Below 400 deployments have been done successfully on more than one occasion, whether they were warranted or not.
Essentially, a dream to fly but easy to get over confident with and end up in an ugly situations. Accelerated stalls leading to a snap roll at low altitude are what scares me most in them, in particular due to the laminar airflow wing compared to your traditional much more forgiving Cessna. Treating the Cirrus as a toy instead of a high performance aircraft just because it has a prop is what kills people.
Sorry for you loss, prayers to the family and friends of the pilot. The staff at the airport seem to possibly need some better incident training, It would have been nice to roll fire (or ANY help) when the emergency was called and especially after he came down. Another pilot calling to say SOMEONE needs to get there, that to me sounds like nobody was paying attention!
A big thing to remember is ground control and local control are two seaparate positions. Ground wouldn’t have known anything about the emergency until he saw the crash. At that point he’s got to freeze the ramp/taxiways, figure out a route for the response crews, and try to not create a twisted gaggle on the ground. Not to mention the number of other responsibilities on his plate off frequency. Not saying everything was perfect, but they sure as hell were paying attention. Edit: thank you @pomerau changed the whole point of the response with one word.
@@rockuo100 Agreed and I get it, I'm not sure it this was real time or not. Also, Monday morning QB really isn't fair in a situation like this. At out local field there's ALWAYS training going on, and it sounded like there was more confusion here than anything.
I agree that the response at the least *sounded* flustered and unorganized. I am not blaming anyone. I hope they can get more training because as far as I understand it, in an emergency situation you fall back to muscle memory behavior. Good training is about all we can ask in these situations.
@@hkr667 agreed, that's pretty much what I meant. Any loss, be it equipment or especially life, should be trained and anticipated for.. i realize things happen that may be out of our control but response training should be mandatory at all manned airfields.
Rest in peace, aviator. May your wings forever be gilded in gold. Just a side question: What is the minimum altitude, max velocity for ballistic parachute deployment on the Cirrus?
That was a clusterfuck all around in comms... there had to have been more to it, that cirrus pilot didnt seem like he had a whole lotta experience in it with his panicing, but still RIP
My condolances to the pilot and his family and friends. The caption says the aircraft crashed short of the field. However, other sources state that the crash was at the far end of the field in the approach direction. ADS-B data shows the aircraft ground speed as about 130kts on final approach, about 45-50 kts higher than normal.
it overflew most of the length of the runway... as the controller was telling the pilot to "offset right." more than once. (that's part of the recordings not included here) Because tower had told a different plane to go ahead and use the runway... Pilot is panicked, (pretty new pilot) in an airplane with a control system issue... talking into the mic about having trim runaway, stating: "I have an emergency" and got reprimanded for stuck mic as tower's response.
This just all seemed like complete chaos. Cannot be good to have a trim runaway on final. I’ve never flown a Cirrus, where does it have the trim runaway switch, just to have an idea?
About one GA fatality per day, on average. And GA flies on average 50 thousand hours a day (20 million hours/year). Not that bad of a number, it's about 1.7 fatalities per 100 thousand flight hours. Also, 100 people die in car crashes every day, for reference. Oh, and 100 more die of gunshot wounds, about half of them being self-inflicted.
Panic is deadly and difficult to predict, some initial reports indicate he forgot to pull engine power on final.(Distracted by the trim issue and neglecting normal approach and landing procedure.) I don't know if the pilot had a weak arm, but a typical man should have been able to overpower the trim spring. So based on that limited information, the main cause was probably attempting to land at cruise speed.i
My understanding is the airplane was outside of the envelope for deploying the chute (too low) Pilot: "I have an emergency!" Tower: "You have a stuck mic." There's more to the radio comms.... this is trimmed a lot.
@FreshTillDeath56, only seconds elapsed from the declaration to the crash. The controller barely had any time to take in the situation and react. She quickly began to divert traffic. Hindsight is 20/20 and he's not the only target in her purview.
Fair enough. It was not a lot of time and she did well to divert traffic, but the FIRST thing you do when an aircraft declares an emergency is to confirm with the pilot that they are declaring an emergency. The word emergency was never even mentioned here while the pilot was still alive.
The controller could have acknowledged the emergency to give the pilot the "warm and fuzzy" feeling, but what more could the controller have done? The whole thing unfolded in seconds- the controller has a lot on her mind. Remember the tower controller's job is to sequence airplanes on the runway (and not much else). The pilot is the final authority for the safety of any individual flight. If that means the pilot is too busy flying the airplane to call for a landing clearance (or otherwise ask the non-pilot controller about a trim runaway ) and ends up on the airport infield, Great! He'll live that. See 14 CFR 91.3 It is sad to see a trim runaway take the life of a fellow pilot. Sitting behind a keyboard it is easy to come up with lots of things both the pilot and controller might have done differently, but only the pilot could have had any meaningful effect on this outcome. To put such attention on the controllers role here is to take attention away from the learning outcomes us pilots can keep in mind in case we ever find ourselves in a similar situation.
Probably, but not sure he would know which one to pull so quickly. I don’t actually know which breakers do what in a C172, I’d have to spend some time looking.
I'm not a Cirrus owner, but from my understanding the newer models have "envelope protection" to keep the aircraft from stalling should the airplane be flying too slow. If the pilot tries to pull back, it will push the nose down in an effort to keep it from an aerodynamic stall/spin. In other words it might not have been a trim issue at all but rather an airspeed issue (too slow). Fyi, this is an edited version of the ATC communications. I have to say if you listen to the full version it is one of the most unprofessional exchanges between all aircraft I've heard and a long time. Controller needs training.
This appears to have been a 'power on' stall. The airplane was going about 140kts. Remember the airplane can stall at any speed. As I have mentioned three times already in this thread, I think he pulled the CB as he was pulling the stick back to compensate. I'm surprised no one else has concluded this.
This is unnerving. I took a few lessons 40 years ago and view or read on incidents since. I don't completely understand this runaway trim though my memory is poor (was it a Cirrus design weakness, a maintenance failure, something lodged there) but people here seem to think it was just unlucky that he didn't have time to deal with it at this stage of flight. All plane come in to land. When is this going to happen to someone else? R.I.P.
Reading the comments it seems 2/3 thinks the ATC screwed up, 1/3 think she did as well as she could given the circumstances. As a newbie, I have a couple of questions for the av experts: - Was it likely that the ATC had visual on the aircraft? And if so, doesn't it make sense she didn't attempt further radio contact, as she could see there was no point? - How far down into the final approach was the aircraft? (like, was it just seconds before touchdown, or was it further up where he might have time to troubleshoot/communicate with ATC?) - Multiple comments state she should have confirmed the aircraft was declaring an emergency; why was this the most important thing to do in this case? It seems obvious that it was indeed an emergency, and she seems to act under that assumption from then onwards anyway (diverting all traffic/closing airport, etc.). What would be the added value in bothering the pilot to reconfirm his emergency? - Was it possible the emergency services were contacted in another way (outside this frequency)? Or did ATC completely fail to notify any emergency services? Thanks in advance :)
-Was it likely tower had visual: Yeah probably with binoculars for a plane that small, not sure how far out they were, but the pilot didn't identify themselves, they just stated the issue. To the ATC, it sounds like pilots talking to each other in the cockpit. She should have caught the "I have an emergency" bit, but it was broken up and she still didn't know it was the plane that had just turned base (2nd to last turn before lining up with the runway to land). -How far down into the final was the aircraft: From what is contained in this video, we don't know. I tried to check the flight history but I didn't find anything. -She definitely could have said she caught the emergency, but again she still has no idea WHO is saying they have an emergency, nor whether they even intended to say it to her. She did react appropriately by doing the most important thing, which was getting all the other aircraft out of the way. There is literally nothing she could have done to save the pilot. All she can do is clear him to land whichever runway he wants. He was going to be landing with or without clearance, so it makes no difference. She did the right thing from that point, in my opinion. -Was it possible emergency services were contacted another way: Yes 100% they were. We are only listening to the tower frequency. They have either a different frequency, telephones, or shouting out the tower window to the fire department which is on site underneath the tower at this airport.
I saw some surveillance footage from a hanger of the incident posted. Happened so fast the controller couldn’t have affected the situation one way or another. Sad. It’s my home airport
Fly the plane! That controller didn't help. Other pilots stay off the radio during an emergency! VFR pilots don't need to read back instructions, just leave the area. If you're on the ground shut down and shut up for 10 minutes until things calm down and ARFF or emergency services have things under control. If you're in a position to render life saving efforts, just do it, your actions are justified.
@@spartanslaxwax actually i am and i've heard many stories about runaway trims on cirrus aircraft, not to mention the fact that cirrus themselves tell you that nay problems, you pull the chute
May have been too low to the ground to pull the chute? I've never flown a Cirrus but i know the airplane has to be slowed to a certain speed to pull the chute. Bad situation all around.
Awful situation. Thoughts with the family. Weird ATC commented on his stuck mic rather than acknowledge his emergency. Sounds like the other pilots were also frustrated with the hand of it.
He didn't identify himself at the time. I guess that would make it hard for ATC to know who's got the trim problem, and does make it sound like someone's transmitting on the radio without realizing it. You can't acknowledge an emergency without knowing _who_ has the emergency. We have the benefit of both hindsight and text captions to tell us who's talking - ATC did not have that at the time.
Looks like the only option is to trip the ROLL TRIM breaker on main bus 1. Not familiar with the plane so I'm not sure how hard that is to get to. And on top of that you'd have to think of it while also trying to land and stay airborn. And then you are stuck with the trim you have because it doesn't appear that the SR20 has a manual trim wheel. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
I'd say that for GA, where -unlike airline transport, which is full of procedures, and training sessions for just about every situation -planes maybe shouldn't get TOO complex. But I wasn't there, and I'm not even an armchair pilot, let alone a pilot, so I'll shut up now.
@Cheaper Charlie III, How so? The problem unfolded quickly for the pilot with the controller not having all the information there wasn't much the controller could do. The controller communicated the airfield closed. We can't hear the controller call emergency services which occured off radio. And one controller gave permission for someone from an FBO to proceed to the scene to offer help. What would you have done differently from your keyboard?
@@warsurplus Ask questions. Talk to the pilot with an emergency immediately. All other tower controllers do that. "Xxx plane, I just wanted to confirm you are declaring an emergency with your trim? Correct?" This is not what happened. The atc controller never even said the word emergency while the pilot was still alive.
@@FreshTillDeath56 Very little time elapsed from the declaration to the crash. Less than a minute I think. We don't know what the controllers were already observing or aware of visually or relayed from another controller. She quickly began to divert traffic. You're basign too much of your situational knowledge from the audio. The audio isn't the only thing in play, and in this situation I don't think anything the controller could have or should have done would have made any difference. I would hardly characterize the response as complete chaos.
The controller could have acknowledged the emergency to give the pilot the "warm and fuzzy" feeling, but what more could the controller have done? The whole thing unfolded in seconds- the controller has a lot on her mind. Remember the tower controller's job is to sequence airplanes on the runway (and not much else). The pilot is the final authority for the safety of any individual flight. If that means the pilot is too busy flying the airplane to call for a landing clearance (or otherwise ask the non-pilot controller about a trim runaway ) and ends up on the airport infield, Great! He'll live that. See 14 CFR 91.3 It is sad to see a trim runaway take the life of a fellow pilot. Sitting behind a keyboard it is easy to come up with lots of things both the pilot and controller might have done differently, but only the pilot could have had any meaningful effect on this outcome. To put such attention on the controllers role here is to take attention away from the learning outcomes us pilots can keep in mind in case we ever find ourselves in a similar situation.
I had to listen to this again. He did declare an emergency, that sounded like it was being ignored by the ATC. She tries to send him around, and he said he HAD to land. Niether was being particularly clear, but my inclination is to give the pilot the benfit of the doubt as he was the one busy trying to get the plane on the ground. Probably with another 1 to 2 minutes they would have both gotten on the same page, but unfortunately that was more time than the pilot had. I also have strange sense this is a student pilot; but, I might be wrong about that.
He didn't identify himself when he talked about his trim issues - that's why ATC referred to it as a "stuck mike." ATC had no way of knowing who had the trim problem. As soon as she hears "I can't, I gotta land" she immediately starts clearing out any traffic.
The plane is registered to Exyion Aviation. I'm having a hard time figuring out what they do with planes, but they seem to be a utilities company, so maybe this was a pipeline flight. Pipelining is where relatively inexperienced pilots will fly over pipelines for inspection in order to gain hours. Also a new Cirrus SR-20 (the plane this pilot was flying) is like 5 times the price of a cessna, so probably not the kind of plane a flight school is going to be investing in. ****** Edit: then again, there are reports that it was a student pilot, actually... so IDK.
What an absolutely, truly, awful thing to say. If you're a pilot, hang your head in shame and hope that maybe should something unfortunate happen to you, people are a little more empathetic. If not, well, you simply have no place commenting. Disgrace.
She was handling 5 planes in relatively close proximity with one out-of-control that she can do nothing about, trying to keep the rest from getting involved without the luxury of getting to sit back and think about it all after the fact like we can.
@@Dexi I would love to agree with you but that is her job, her job is to be able to manage multiple aircraft at once and not get overwhelmed. If you freak out with having 5 students doing pattern work in your airspace, controlling isn’t for you
@@j_taylor not constructive criticism to the pilot, in times like an emergency being a low time pilot I am positive it’s hard to put your emotions to the side and maintain composure. Im just saying that the controller definitely should have recognized that clearly something was wrong with the pilot instead of (from what it seems) ignoring the signs. But I’m not a controller nor was I in her position so who am I to judge
@@j_taylor I’m just replying to the previous person saying “she was controlling 5 planes in close proximity” like that’s her job man that’s nothing out of the ordinary
![[REAL ATC] Student | SOLO | Pilot LANDS HIS CESSNA WITHOUT A WHEEL!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gstvakCv170/mqdefault.jpg)
![[REAL ATC] Brickyard SUFFERS TRIM RUNAWAY | CONTROL ISSUES at Atlanta](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RzoEsM0L2CM/mqdefault.jpg)
Leave your condolences here, please.
I'm so sorry for the person that died and their family and friends. 😭😭
🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
This is horrible. I keep hearing Cessna planes having accidents. Why isn't Cessna caring about the safety of our pilots? What am I missing?
:( rip.. I'm sorry that this has happened
@@Messilegend1000 Ahm, it was actually a Cirrus, not a Cessna.
I don't fly a Cirrus but I deal with them a lot where I work at the moment (there's a Cirrus repair station on the field). The circuit breakers with the trim if I recall is by your right leg. Unless you've been in an emergency in an aircraft it's hard to put into perspective just how quick these things happen. You can familiarize yourself all you want but in an emergency it's hard to overcome the fear no matter how much you think it won't. From my own experience, even something simple as mentally simulating the emergency when you're bored at home can help a bit (just sitting with your eyes closed and imagining the actions you would take in say a partial engine failure on take off). Even knowing how well I responded to my own emergency, I'm not sure how I would respond to a trim runaway. Pulling a circuit breaker might seem simple but imagine doing it while fighting for control of the airplane with your hand bouncing around as you're trying to pull the right breaker while you have likely seconds before the plane stalls out. Anyways this is very tragic and honestly will have me bringing it up with those I know who fly Cirrus aircraft (including my bosses) about how they would handle a trim runaway. The best way to respect this gentleman's death is to learn from his mistakes so we can try to prevent this from happening again.
@@ToFlatOut That's great for certain class of failures. Pulling the breaker guarantees it will stop in all situations.
So, I read the description first, so I knew exactly what was going to happen, and I decided to listen, anyway. In the process, I learned some things about what happens in cases like this, and I gained even more admiration for the way the aviation community responds to emergencies. Thanks for this.
RIP... trim runaway can be stressful, especially on final close to the ground
Like a 737max.
@@warsurplus Funny how the max mcas was never an issue outside of NA. The training standards in these dogshit east asian airlines is to blame. Not the actual aircraft.
@@warsurplus Except this one is more likely a simple jammed switch
Yeah. Anyone know if that aircraft type has a trim cut out switch? I thought all aircraft today have one
@@doomhammer5517 Hold down AP disc. or flip breaker.
Wow that was unfortunate having a trim runaway that close to the ground. Rest in peace and my condolences to the family.
dang that was rough to listen to. runaway trim on final.
Condolences to the family of the airman and thanks to the tower and ground crews for giving their best.
I can't give a URL because of chad oh bann neng but for you commenters to get an idea of all that the controller was handling search for
Fatal Plane Crash At Montgomery Field After Student Pilot Declares An Emergency | N700YZ Crash
Go to 3:30 or watch it all. She handled a lot of planes, lot of airfield interactions, back to back, yet stayed proactive and I think you'll find she acted correctly and expediently. Then toss in an unidentified message! But she didn't lollygag, nor freeze up; she kept rocking it IMO.
Pay close attention. That was an UNIDENTIFIED trim emergency indication. She didn't fail to act whatsoever. First, she asked who said that, and without hesitation continued to direct other actions with other craft, and made the instruction to go around without even being acknowledged on her query as to "who said that?" So it sounds like the "controller inaction" musings are out of line, IMO.
You can't post youtube links on youtube without worrying about bans? I remember when you literally physically could not post comments with links. Why would they enable that function only to start banning for it?
@@Dexi Not banning; chad oh banning. If I spell out what I just wrote, it's immediately flagged. That's right. Every time I correctly spell out chad oh banning, it gets chad oh band. Yew tewb, making the world ,much less productive and enjoyable every day.
Dude. This sucks. Poor guy. Thank you for your content throughout the years.
This is so sad. My heartfelt condolences to everyone involved.
With a trim malfunction
That low to the ground there just wasn’t much that could be done. 😢
Yeah. Even with a more levelheaded tower, I don't think there was all that much time to think it over.
@@j_taylor based on how close he crashed to the runway he probably did not have the altitude or engine power to recover if the trim sent him nose down.(trying to climb with trim hard down is like accelerating in your car while pressing the brakes)
Aren't small planes supposed to be capable of flying completely out of trim (even if it's more challenging)?
RIP. And condolences to those who may have been traumatized by witnessing this.
“All traffic standby”
“This is so and so”
“Stand by stand by stand by”
this tape kinda shocks me. I can't speculate on what exactly happened, but the fact that the pilot managed to have the word "emergency" on the frequency and the controllers didn't stop what they were doing to figure out what was going on seems strange.
the fear in that pilot's last transmission is heartbreaking.
It sounds like they were trying to divert traffic from the field, all they know is that they have an aircraft with control issues, they probably were extremely concerned about spacing aircraft in that situation
That's what I'm wondering! Tower should have relayed, "Traffic is having an emergency or trim emergency." Very strange.
@PurpleSunYellowMoon, this unfolded in a few seconds. The controller almost immediately began to divert traffic, ordering go-around, etc.
What is not on this version of the recording was that the airspace was very crowded with aircraft doing touch-and-goes, including the accident aircraft. The controllers were dealing with a number of closely spaced aircraft in the pattern as well as ground traffic. On top of that, the emergency aircraft never identified himself, which is one of the reasons the controller gave him the go-around instruction. While it may not have changed the outcome, it would have minimally provided information to the controller to focus on his aircraft.
What did you expect her to do exactly? He said he had emergency and his mic was stuck at the same time. So again what exactly was she supposed to do in that situation? planes cant just stop in the air and unfortunately there was nothing that she could do about him having a trim issue other then move people out the way. This all happened literally within 20-25 seconds. from the his emergency transmission to the unfortunate crash. may he RIP
Damn…so close to landing…and the poor tower controller. You could hear how upset she was but was keeping it together. But I do have a genuine question, I flew cirrus and got my HP in them. We were always trained to yank the AP circuit to completely remove the AP from controlling the aircraft if it didn’t deactivate. Usually they are collared a colored ring to make it easier to get in an emergency. Is this not a standard teaching, or do we think he just didn’t have time? Regardless, fly high pilot, you finally got real wings
If he yanked the CB breaker as he was ascending with the stick pulled back far to compensate, he would enter a stall which appears to be exactly what happened. This is essentially the same as what happened to the Cirrus in Houston - she raised flaps on a go around and it increased the stall speed causing a stall into a vehicle.
Curious to hear from owners / mechanics. How hard is it to override full trim using normal inputs (per the POH)? How hard is it to identify the trim breakers on the side panel? Does trim return to neutral if the breaker is pulled or does it stay in the last position?
In very small aircraft it is *usually* possible to fly out of trim with more or less strong force applied to the controls. I don't know about the specific type. The increased workload in that phase of the flight could have been too much.
If the trim cannot be counteracted with force and there is an electric actuator then there are breakers and procedures to be used (and to be trained with). When the actuator is disabled the trim will remain in position and you need manual operation to move it.
@@vihai There is a runaway trim switch.
I wonder if this is something you can accurately simulate in Microsoft Flight Simulator
Cirrus trim is weird though because I don’t think it actually moves a trim tab. It’s all driven through the autopilot servos I believe. There’s no wheel.
@@FreshTillDeath56 I don't think the circuit breakers in the default MSFS SR22 are modeled.
Rest in peace
NTSB final report came out several months ago. They did not find a runaway trim issue. They concluded that the pilot simply stalled the aircraft while going around. The Garmin ESP activated but was not able to prevent a crash.
Pull the breaker on the trim and manually actuate. Always be ready to apply full power. Work the problem from higher altitude. Do not lose your composure.
As a flight simmer who has had this issue with both trim and AP, I was wondering how you would deal with this in real life.
Trim could be mechanically linked like the plane I fly. No circuit break switch there man :(
Easy to say but easier said than done.The brain doesnt work in an emergency.Everything you learned is gone when theres such a short time to deal with said problem.The brain goes into fight or flight mode and shuts every other thought pattern down as unneeded at that moment but is filling you with adrenaline instead.
Easier said than done. This reportedly was a low time student pilot solo and I would think that maybe he may not have known to pull a breaker during this situation. Either way whether he knew or not, malfunctioning electric trim can get out of hand if you don’t handle it properly, even for experienced pilots. So sad to hear how scared he was the last moments of his life.
Unfortunately, trim runaway is really only particularly stressed at the airline level. It really should be integrated into GA training as well, especially with GA aircrafts having more AP installed
I would have helped ATC if the pilot identified himself. I am so happy that everyone dropped everything to do what they can to help regardless of the tragic outcome.
The POH says "It is possible to easily override full trim or autopilot
inputs by using normal control inputs"....It does not mention how much force is required.... It's quite possible that the pilot became overwhelmed and lost control... So sad.
I believe he pulled the CB with the stick pulled too far back. He may have been better off just flying it as is.
So sad to hear...
Very sad. RIP . Unfortunate because I feel a go around would’ve given ample time albeit with high control forces to disconnect the trim and attempt to land once the situation is over.
Very sad. RIP Flyer.
Man I was student also once
But everybody shut the fuck up when emergency in progress
As soon as emergency happens. Everyone wants to land or take off
For those of us non-pilots, can anyone explain in layman terms what a "trim" is and/or how it resulted in this accident?
Helps to push the nose down or up therefore descending or climbing
Because it is impossible to perfectly balance a plane due to passengers and cargo, a plane will often want to pitch up or down depending on if the nose is heavy or the tail. Trim helps balance things out, so you are not always fighting the controls.
There is often a rocker switch on the yoke that when pushed up or down brings the nose up or down. Sounds like his switch got stuck. If the trim runs all the way nose down or nose up, to the pilot it will eventually get super hard to move the yoke. Many pounds of force. (I'm leaving out a lot of details here and over simplifying things, but I think you'll get the jest.)
Interesting. Is it a cable system or electronic in this type of plane?
@@AK-rx6hv I’m assuming electric, you wouldn’t have a “runaway” trim on a mechanical trim
Think of it like if you had to drive around a long curve, and you could turn a wheel in your car that keeps the steering wheeling turned a little bit, so you can turn the wheel a little bit less physically. You can basically set a turn left or turn right trim. In planes it's nose-up/nose-down. You set it so you don't have to manhandle the controls as much. Now imagine this wheel turned too much and sent you into the wall. This is a runaway. If the trim point the nose too high up, you get a stall risk.
I am going to fly SR20 in a few months, too. I really can hope for everybody that such a trim runaway will not occur to us and the reason for this issue may be found soon.
R.I.P. to the pilot onboard.
Don’t worry, the runaway trim can be overpowered. Very rare event.
Always a good idea to do a trim check before take off. The trim should not turn if you press trim while holding down AP DISC.
Learn the procedure from AFM/POH prior your flight and in case of trim runaway, follow the procedure. In this case, it’s highly likely that the procedure was not followed.
CAPS is not part of the runaway trim procedure, however it is for any loss of control situation. He had precious little time to make that call.
He may have been too low to deploy CAPS.
I don’t believe he had the alt to pull caps unfortunately
Below limitation. Who the fuck in their right mind deploys cap oh final anyways
@@spartanslaxwax Someone looking straight at the ground, that's who. Below 400 deployments have been done successfully on more than one occasion, whether they were warranted or not.
There appears to be many cirrus accidents in the past 5 years. Is it aircraft issue or lack of good training on a higher performance aircraft.
Essentially, a dream to fly but easy to get over confident with and end up in an ugly situations.
Accelerated stalls leading to a snap roll at low altitude are what scares me most in them, in particular due to the laminar airflow wing compared to your traditional much more forgiving Cessna.
Treating the Cirrus as a toy instead of a high performance aircraft just because it has a prop is what kills people.
Sorry for you loss, prayers to the family and friends of the pilot. The staff at the airport seem to possibly need some better incident training, It would have been nice to roll fire (or ANY help) when the emergency was called and especially after he came down. Another pilot calling to say SOMEONE needs to get there, that to me sounds like nobody was paying attention!
A big thing to remember is ground control and local control are two seaparate positions. Ground wouldn’t have known anything about the emergency until he saw the crash. At that point he’s got to freeze the ramp/taxiways, figure out a route for the response crews, and try to not create a twisted gaggle on the ground. Not to mention the number of other responsibilities on his plate off frequency. Not saying everything was perfect, but they sure as hell were paying attention.
Edit: thank you @pomerau changed the whole point of the response with one word.
@@rockuo100 Agreed and I get it, I'm not sure it this was real time or not. Also, Monday morning QB really isn't fair in a situation like this. At out local field there's ALWAYS training going on, and it sounded like there was more confusion here than anything.
I agree that the response at the least *sounded* flustered and unorganized. I am not blaming anyone. I hope they can get more training because as far as I understand it, in an emergency situation you fall back to muscle memory behavior. Good training is about all we can ask in these situations.
@@hkr667 agreed, that's pretty much what I meant. Any loss, be it equipment or especially life, should be trained and anticipated for.. i realize things happen that may be out of our control but response training should be mandatory at all manned airfields.
Rest in peace, aviator. May your wings forever be gilded in gold.
Just a side question: What is the minimum altitude, max velocity for ballistic parachute deployment on the Cirrus?
400ft, 920ft if in a spin officially. But it’s tested to work as low at 250 ft AGL
Up to 180kts
It's better to rest in peace than to rest in pieces. R.i.p.
So sad.. RIP
RIP Cpt and fly high
Trim runaway is scary as hell. RIP.
That was a clusterfuck all around in comms... there had to have been more to it, that cirrus pilot didnt seem like he had a whole lotta experience in it with his panicing, but still RIP
My condolances to the pilot and his family and friends.
The caption says the aircraft crashed short of the field. However, other sources state that the crash was at the far end of the field in the approach direction. ADS-B data shows the aircraft ground speed as about 130kts on final approach, about 45-50 kts higher than normal.
it overflew most of the length of the runway... as the controller was telling the pilot to "offset right." more than once. (that's part of the recordings not included here)
Because tower had told a different plane to go ahead and use the runway...
Pilot is panicked, (pretty new pilot) in an airplane with a control system issue...
talking into the mic about having trim runaway, stating: "I have an emergency"
and got reprimanded for stuck mic as tower's response.
So quick. Tragic. RIP aviator.
This just all seemed like complete chaos. Cannot be good to have a trim runaway on final. I’ve never flown a Cirrus, where does it have the trim runaway switch, just to have an idea?
What is with all these GA fatals? Is it me or is it almost every day?
Not every day, but it is fairly common. GA flying is an order of magnitude more dangerous than sheduled for a number of reasons
About one GA fatality per day, on average. And GA flies on average 50 thousand hours a day (20 million hours/year). Not that bad of a number, it's about 1.7 fatalities per 100 thousand flight hours.
Also, 100 people die in car crashes every day, for reference.
Oh, and 100 more die of gunshot wounds, about half of them being self-inflicted.
I always trust the gold old hand trim wheel on any GA aeroplanes.
RIP🕊️
Paix à son âme 🙏
Panic is deadly and difficult to predict, some initial reports indicate he forgot to pull engine power on final.(Distracted by the trim issue and neglecting normal approach and landing procedure.) I don't know if the pilot had a weak arm, but a typical man should have been able to overpower the trim spring. So based on that limited information, the main cause was probably attempting to land at cruise speed.i
I thought all Cirrus models has the Caps system ( Cirrus Airframe Parachute System).
Rip🌷🌷🌷🌷🌷🌷🌷
My understanding is the airplane was outside of the envelope for deploying the chute (too low)
Pilot: "I have an emergency!"
Tower: "You have a stuck mic."
There's more to the radio comms.... this is trimmed a lot.
> this is trimmed a lot.
Like the plane.
too soon? :(
I totally agree. I was surprised we didn't hear the other pilots and ATC.
@@paddyohenry6428 0:35 "I have an emergency up here. My trim is malfunctioning".
Rest in peace :( I am infuriated with how chaotic the tower was. He declared an emergency and tower was inquiring about his radio.
@FreshTillDeath56, only seconds elapsed from the declaration to the crash. The controller barely had any time to take in the situation and react. She quickly began to divert traffic. Hindsight is 20/20 and he's not the only target in her purview.
Fair enough. It was not a lot of time and she did well to divert traffic, but the FIRST thing you do when an aircraft declares an emergency is to confirm with the pilot that they are declaring an emergency. The word emergency was never even mentioned here while the pilot was still alive.
@@FreshTillDeath56 Point taken. Thanks for your civil reply.
yea, that all happened pretty quick, and it was not even clear he had an emergency.
The controller could have acknowledged the emergency to give the pilot the "warm and fuzzy" feeling, but what more could the controller have done?
The whole thing unfolded in seconds- the controller has a lot on her mind.
Remember the tower controller's job is to sequence airplanes on the runway (and not much else). The pilot is the final authority for the safety of any individual flight. If that means the pilot is too busy flying the airplane to call for a landing clearance (or otherwise ask the non-pilot controller about a trim runaway ) and ends up on the airport infield, Great! He'll live that. See 14 CFR 91.3
It is sad to see a trim runaway take the life of a fellow pilot. Sitting behind a keyboard it is easy to come up with lots of things both the pilot and controller might have done differently, but only the pilot could have had any meaningful effect on this outcome.
To put such attention on the controllers role here is to take attention away from the learning outcomes us pilots can keep in mind in case we ever find ourselves in a similar situation.
RIP..
RIP.
no chute deployment?
Is there a breaker you can pop to disable the trim for this type of a/c? Rest in peace to the pilot.
Probably, but not sure he would know which one to pull so quickly. I don’t actually know which breakers do what in a C172, I’d have to spend some time looking.
I'm not a Cirrus owner, but from my understanding the newer models have "envelope protection" to keep the aircraft from stalling should the airplane be flying too slow. If the pilot tries to pull back, it will push the nose down in an effort to keep it from an aerodynamic stall/spin. In other words it might not have been a trim issue at all but rather an airspeed issue (too slow). Fyi, this is an edited version of the ATC communications. I have to say if you listen to the full version it is one of the most unprofessional exchanges between all aircraft I've heard and a long time. Controller needs training.
This appears to have been a 'power on' stall. The airplane was going about 140kts. Remember the airplane can stall at any speed. As I have mentioned three times already in this thread, I think he pulled the CB as he was pulling the stick back to compensate. I'm surprised no one else has concluded this.
This is unnerving. I took a few lessons 40 years ago and view or read on incidents since.
I don't completely understand this runaway trim though my memory is poor (was it a Cirrus design weakness, a maintenance failure, something lodged there) but people here seem to think it was just unlucky that he didn't have time to deal with it at this stage of flight.
All plane come in to land. When is this going to happen to someone else?
R.I.P.
Very sad day.... :'(
what is 'trim'?
Reading the comments it seems 2/3 thinks the ATC screwed up, 1/3 think she did as well as she could given the circumstances. As a newbie, I have a couple of questions for the av experts:
- Was it likely that the ATC had visual on the aircraft? And if so, doesn't it make sense she didn't attempt further radio contact, as she could see there was no point?
- How far down into the final approach was the aircraft? (like, was it just seconds before touchdown, or was it further up where he might have time to troubleshoot/communicate with ATC?)
- Multiple comments state she should have confirmed the aircraft was declaring an emergency; why was this the most important thing to do in this case? It seems obvious that it was indeed an emergency, and she seems to act under that assumption from then onwards anyway (diverting all traffic/closing airport, etc.). What would be the added value in bothering the pilot to reconfirm his emergency?
- Was it possible the emergency services were contacted in another way (outside this frequency)? Or did ATC completely fail to notify any emergency services?
Thanks in advance :)
This is a seriously trimmed audio clip.
Tower repeately told the emergency aircraft to "offset right" and go around...
-Was it likely tower had visual: Yeah probably with binoculars for a plane that small, not sure how far out they were, but the pilot didn't identify themselves, they just stated the issue. To the ATC, it sounds like pilots talking to each other in the cockpit. She should have caught the "I have an emergency" bit, but it was broken up and she still didn't know it was the plane that had just turned base (2nd to last turn before lining up with the runway to land).
-How far down into the final was the aircraft: From what is contained in this video, we don't know. I tried to check the flight history but I didn't find anything.
-She definitely could have said she caught the emergency, but again she still has no idea WHO is saying they have an emergency, nor whether they even intended to say it to her. She did react appropriately by doing the most important thing, which was getting all the other aircraft out of the way. There is literally nothing she could have done to save the pilot. All she can do is clear him to land whichever runway he wants. He was going to be landing with or without clearance, so it makes no difference. She did the right thing from that point, in my opinion.
-Was it possible emergency services were contacted another way: Yes 100% they were. We are only listening to the tower frequency. They have either a different frequency, telephones, or shouting out the tower window to the fire department which is on site underneath the tower at this airport.
@@Dexi thanks, appreciate the detailed reply!
I saw some surveillance footage from a hanger of the incident posted. Happened so fast the controller couldn’t have affected the situation one way or another. Sad. It’s my home airport
Fly the plane! That controller didn't help. Other pilots stay off the radio during an emergency! VFR pilots don't need to read back instructions, just leave the area. If you're on the ground shut down and shut up for 10 minutes until things calm down and ARFF or emergency services have things under control. If you're in a position to render life saving efforts, just do it, your actions are justified.
Civil aviation can be dangerous.
Driving a car can be dangerous.
Stay Safe.
RIP
another trim issue on a cirrus airplane.... yet i'm surprised at this one that didnt pull the chute
Tell me you're not a pilot without telling me you're not a pilot
@@spartanslaxwax actually i am and i've heard many stories about runaway trims on cirrus aircraft, not to mention the fact that cirrus themselves tell you that nay problems, you pull the chute
@@WX4CB Are you aware of the CAPS limitation then?
May have been too low to the ground to pull the chute? I've never flown a Cirrus but i know the airplane has to be slowed to a certain speed to pull the chute. Bad situation all around.
Makes more sense to pull the trim circuit breaker and go to manual than to pull the CAPS below safe altitude.
Rip
The pilot looked too nervious. You need to always keep calm.
Pull the circuit breaker - ??? 😳
😥 😔 🙏
Too low for caps?
Or too much in over his head. Which would be absolutely understandable...
Absolutely should not ever deploy caps on short final
R I P
Awful situation. Thoughts with the family. Weird ATC commented on his stuck mic rather than acknowledge his emergency. Sounds like the other pilots were also frustrated with the hand of it.
He didn't identify himself at the time. I guess that would make it hard for ATC to know who's got the trim problem, and does make it sound like someone's transmitting on the radio without realizing it. You can't acknowledge an emergency without knowing _who_ has the emergency. We have the benefit of both hindsight and text captions to tell us who's talking - ATC did not have that at the time.
Oh, man! Cirrus has some serious redesigning to do if an electric trim on a small plane can do that.
Looks like the only option is to trip the ROLL TRIM breaker on main bus 1. Not familiar with the plane so I'm not sure how hard that is to get to. And on top of that you'd have to think of it while also trying to land and stay airborn. And then you are stuck with the trim you have because it doesn't appear that the SR20 has a manual trim wheel. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
I think the pilot's panic at runaway trim was deadlier than the runaway trim itself.
I'd say that for GA, where -unlike airline transport, which is full of procedures, and training sessions for just about every situation -planes maybe shouldn't get TOO complex. But I wasn't there, and I'm not even an armchair pilot, let alone a pilot, so I'll shut up now.
RIP
Complete chaos from the staff handling the airport
@Cheaper Charlie III, How so? The problem unfolded quickly for the pilot with the controller not having all the information there wasn't much the controller could do. The controller communicated the airfield closed. We can't hear the controller call emergency services which occured off radio. And one controller gave permission for someone from an FBO to proceed to the scene to offer help. What would you have done differently from your keyboard?
@@warsurplus Ask questions. Talk to the pilot with an emergency immediately. All other tower controllers do that. "Xxx plane, I just wanted to confirm you are declaring an emergency with your trim? Correct?" This is not what happened. The atc controller never even said the word emergency while the pilot was still alive.
@@FreshTillDeath56 Very little time elapsed from the declaration to the crash. Less than a minute I think. We don't know what the controllers were already observing or aware of visually or relayed from another controller. She quickly began to divert traffic. You're basign too much of your situational knowledge from the audio. The audio isn't the only thing in play, and in this situation I don't think anything the controller could have or should have done would have made any difference. I would hardly characterize the response as complete chaos.
Also, the declaring aircraft never identified himself, which added to the confusion.
The controller could have acknowledged the emergency to give the pilot the "warm and fuzzy" feeling, but what more could the controller have done?
The whole thing unfolded in seconds- the controller has a lot on her mind.
Remember the tower controller's job is to sequence airplanes on the runway (and not much else). The pilot is the final authority for the safety of any individual flight. If that means the pilot is too busy flying the airplane to call for a landing clearance (or otherwise ask the non-pilot controller about a trim runaway ) and ends up on the airport infield, Great! He'll live that. See 14 CFR 91.3
It is sad to see a trim runaway take the life of a fellow pilot. Sitting behind a keyboard it is easy to come up with lots of things both the pilot and controller might have done differently, but only the pilot could have had any meaningful effect on this outcome.
To put such attention on the controllers role here is to take attention away from the learning outcomes us pilots can keep in mind in case we ever find ourselves in a similar situation.
My airplane has a parachute. I’ll always be safe!
I had to listen to this again. He did declare an emergency, that sounded like it was being ignored by the ATC. She tries to send him around, and he said he HAD to land. Niether was being particularly clear, but my inclination is to give the pilot the benfit of the doubt as he was the one busy trying to get the plane on the ground. Probably with another 1 to 2 minutes they would have both gotten on the same page, but unfortunately that was more time than the pilot had. I also have strange sense this is a student pilot; but, I might be wrong about that.
He didn't identify himself when he talked about his trim issues - that's why ATC referred to it as a "stuck mike." ATC had no way of knowing who had the trim problem. As soon as she hears "I can't, I gotta land" she immediately starts clearing out any traffic.
The plane is registered to Exyion Aviation. I'm having a hard time figuring out what they do with planes, but they seem to be a utilities company, so maybe this was a pipeline flight. Pipelining is where relatively inexperienced pilots will fly over pipelines for inspection in order to gain hours. Also a new Cirrus SR-20 (the plane this pilot was flying) is like 5 times the price of a cessna, so probably not the kind of plane a flight school is going to be investing in. ****** Edit: then again, there are reports that it was a student pilot, actually... so IDK.
Better training...rip bud.
What an absolutely, truly, awful thing to say. If you're a pilot, hang your head in shame and hope that maybe should something unfortunate happen to you, people are a little more empathetic. If not, well, you simply have no place commenting. Disgrace.
Exactly right. RIP
Was she ordering her lunch or watching a soap opera?
She was handling 5 planes in relatively close proximity with one out-of-control that she can do nothing about, trying to keep the rest from getting involved without the luxury of getting to sit back and think about it all after the fact like we can.
@@Dexi I would love to agree with you but that is her job, her job is to be able to manage multiple aircraft at once and not get overwhelmed. If you freak out with having 5 students doing pattern work in your airspace, controlling isn’t for you
@@j_taylor not constructive criticism to the pilot, in times like an emergency being a low time pilot I am positive it’s hard to put your emotions to the side and maintain composure. Im just saying that the controller definitely should have recognized that clearly something was wrong with the pilot instead of (from what it seems) ignoring the signs. But I’m not a controller nor was I in her position so who am I to judge
@@j_taylor I’m just replying to the previous person saying “she was controlling 5 planes in close proximity” like that’s her job man that’s nothing out of the ordinary
I pray everyone is ok and it's just a minor injury 🙏🏻
Unfortunately the pilot died. IIRC he survived the crash but died shortly afterward.
See title, it was fatal.
RIP
RIP
RIP