Thanks Wil! Been waiting for this. I was reading the review on your website briefly and it's awesome. Good show to watch while having a coffee for breakfast
The lower torque can't be much fun. I have my Cube's CX at +5 on the custom scale throughout every mode. Now we're able to do this, as sitting at 0 on an 85 Nm wasn't as much punch as I would have liked. 800 g is nothing, not even a bag of sugar, so it's not going to make a difference one bit! I know all the racers will say otherwise, but it's true. But it's good that they think that; it keeps the pockets of the manufacturers happy. I'm loving my new 2024 Cube Action Team. I just got it and had to change a few things to get it right, but man, it's good! That new update whare can customise the mode soon as it's set to +5 just tap the pedal and it's off like a rocket! I do like that it's like a quick launch! I was out for 3hrs yesterday getting used to it and battery is at 75% so that has really put my mind to rest that the bike won't suddenly give out on me when out on a day trip! This was in auto and turbo and emtb all set to +5 max on the 750w power tube very very surprised at how good these batteries are, it's always been that fear of mine as when I go out on the bike I'm out for hours I don't do short rides much
And in these 3h how much did you ride and what terrain? 30km on flat? Because I have same bike and few days ago got rid of 60% battery in 3h on 45 km technical single tracks.
Is it really? What the motors need is real world seals that work in wet conditions (not just during a limited testing period), leak detection that warns users that moisture ingress has occurred, seals that can be replaced by users. Real world durability is what’s needed by all manufacturers.
I agree! I recently bought a second hand Scott Strike with a Bosch Performance motor. The most fun ive ever had on a bike, until the bearings siezed after barley one month. Now what did i do to it? The gentleman i bought it from had taken care of it very well, but he had lubricated the main seals with oil, making dirt stick to them. As i did mechanic´s in school and have a average knowlage of mechanics, i wiped that clean and kept close attention to the seals on every wash (never with a pressure washer). I also didn´t use any brushes on them except once when i first removed the oil and grime, and i was very careful. So it held for one month and then i got horrible bearing noise, no play, and error code 500 something. Proabably the most expensive toy i will ever buy. I will make an attempt to rebuild the motor with the guides that are avalible by ebikemotorcentre dot com. I know i did everything wrong, but a 6000 euro consumer toy should not be built like this.
I have the same fluid VLT, but the higher spec, review is spot on. I have an Ochain on order due in next week that i am going to try out to see if it reduces some of the clacking noise on the descents. Will try to remember to update comment with results.
@@jamesfeltham1250 Yeah i did see that video, the ochain actually arrived the other day, the carpark test it does actually help a little bit with the SX, however the chainline was incorrect with the ochain so im waiting for some spacers to come so i can try it properly on downhill.
I spoke with a chap recently who has the lighter motor. He was loving it in the South East of England. Then he went to Wales and found it lacked the oomph to get up the mountain tracks. Said he could not keep up with the higher powered ebike riders.
As a bosch and Fazua owner, can say the SX needs cadence like a rotary and the Fazua is alot more punchy down low and is far better from a lower cadence, however the Bosch units are far better quality control, having had 2 Fazua drive units replaced thus far in my Heckler SL. And to clarify your stats on weight are incorrect, Bosch SX is 2kg so your correct there, Fazua is 1.96kg, not by much.
We hear you on the Fazua issues - we had the motor cut out randomly a few times on the Focus JAM2 SL, and the Heckler SL only made it 14km before the motor completely failed! We're still hopeful that Santa Cruz will send us a replacement to complete the review. And you're dead right on the motor weights - the Fazua Ride 60 is 40g lighter than the Bosch SX. Factoring in the motor and battery as a complete system, the Bosch SX supposedly comes out lighter by 160-260g. Well, that's assuming we trust all of the claimed numbers from the manufacturers ;-) [Wil]
Thanls fr the great review this is actually the same feel I had when I tested the SX on a Norco Fluid. I didnt had the chance to test the TQ on mountain trails. Does the TQ need the same amount of cadence to achieve max power? If not I guess the power difference feeling wont be that noticeable? I really like the fact that we can remove the battery on TQ equipped bikes, make a great bike park solution for a 4-5 days a year situation.
hope you see this as it's weeks after this was released. my question is would a 28 tooth front chainring and or 160 mm cranks help with the cadence issues?
Thank you for the test.. Did you test it without the power of motor as well? Was there any resistance while pedaĺing? And if you can compare it with Fazua and TQ in this regard?
Very little resistance while pedalling without motor support. Bosch says there's 50% less drag than the CX motor, and it certainly feels very natural to me when you're above the 25km/h cutoff point. That said, I think most modern motors like the Fazua and TQ are pretty good in this regard. [Wil]
Any data on battery-cell degradation over time from your fine research into this side of mountain biking... e.g. after a full season of regular usage, then perhaps a 3 month lay off over winter?
Yep! We actually delved a bit into that topic in our Bosch Tuning Tips article: flowmountainbike.com/tests/tuning-tips-bosch-smart-system-emtb-review/ Here's the specific section on battery health; "Lithium-Ion batteries offer the ability to recharge many hundreds, and often thousands of cycles. In the case of the Bosch PowerTube batteries, you should be able to get 1,500 complete discharge cycles before they start gradually losing capacity. As with all Lithium-Ion batteries, your e-MTB battery is at its most stressed state when it’s either fully discharged or fully charged. According to Bosch, it’s best to store the battery on your e-MTB with between 30-60% charge. So rather than leaving your bike in the shed for a week after running the battery flat, give it a top-up before you put it away. Likewise, don’t leave it fully charged while it’s left dormant for three months over winter. On that note, the battery will lose some of its performance when being stored or used in extreme temperatures. Ideally, the battery is best stored at room temperatures between 10-20°C. If you’ve had an injury and you know you’re not going to be riding your bike for a while, it might make sense to remove the battery and store it inside the house, especially during a hot Australian summer." Hope that helps answer your question! [Wil]
I believe that Bosch and Shimano motors are landed on MTBs by a mistake. They were developed for a commuter bikes in mind for sure. That's the only way how can I explain those motor rattle noice and gigantic granny-style displays and controls.
We've had flawless experience with the three SX motors we've tested so far, but obviously we'd need a lot more time to evaluate long-term reliability. Given the overall track record with the CX motor, the two-year warranty, Bosch's service network and the fact that there's nothing radically different in terms of the construction of the SX motor, we have very high expectations. [Wil]
Great review Wil 👍. How does the SX compare to EP8 RS on an older Rise in terms of ride feel? I'm guessing the peak power of 600W on the SX is the difference in terms of climbing prowess provided you get cadence up to 100rpm
Thanks Sandy! It's been a while since I rode that OG Rise, but from memory the power delivery was really progressive and quite soft with the stock tune. I'd say the SX motor is perkier and more responsive, and the Extended Boost function is more prominent. Looking at my range test data, the SX motor achieved a faster average climbing speed too. I believe the latest Rise allows you to open up the full 85Nm though, and Shimano has also released a firmware update for the EP801 motor that gives you more overrun right? [Wil]
@FlowMountainBikeUA-cam Thanks for the feedback Wil, figured as much. Yes I believe EP801 gives increased peak power and overrun compared to EP8 to be more competitive against the CX. Oh well only way way to get more out of my motor to bring it closer to SX or EP801 would be to resort to third party apps which would void my warranty. Something to consider after 2 year motor warranty expires though, range extender would be needed methinks
They’re not available in Australia just yet but will be in the near future - stay tuned to the Flow website as we’ll have the review dropping soon with loads more info! [Wil]
No experience with the DJI motor just yet, but it sounds pretty impressive! Curious to see if any of the big brands pick it up, would be very interested to test it out. [Wil]
E-Bikes for sport are a non-sense... Not environment friendly at all : ressources costful and eroding more and more tracks and paths. If you're in good health and/or not cummuting, just use the good old muscular bikes. You can't pretend you wanna enjoy "nature" and keep spitting in its face. Toys for hipsters and tech nerds...
You are just providing free advertisement unless you talk about reliability, serviceability and maintainability, right to repair, IP (ingress protection) rating, and replacement cost.
Thanks Wil! Been waiting for this. I was reading the review on your website briefly and it's awesome. Good show to watch while having a coffee for breakfast
I've ridden it on a paved road It's super nice 👍
The lower torque can't be much fun. I have my Cube's CX at +5 on the custom scale throughout every mode. Now we're able to do this, as sitting at 0 on an 85 Nm wasn't as much punch as I would have liked. 800 g is nothing, not even a bag of sugar, so it's not going to make a difference one bit! I know all the racers will say otherwise, but it's true. But it's good that they think that; it keeps the pockets of the manufacturers happy. I'm loving my new 2024 Cube Action Team. I just got it and had to change a few things to get it right, but man, it's good! That new update whare can customise the mode soon as it's set to +5 just tap the pedal and it's off like a rocket! I do like that it's like a quick launch! I was out for 3hrs yesterday getting used to it and battery is at 75% so that has really put my mind to rest that the bike won't suddenly give out on me when out on a day trip! This was in auto and turbo and emtb all set to +5 max on the 750w power tube very very surprised at how good these batteries are, it's always been that fear of mine as when I go out on the bike I'm out for hours I don't do short rides much
And in these 3h how much did you ride and what terrain? 30km on flat? Because I have same bike and few days ago got rid of 60% battery in 3h on 45 km technical single tracks.
nice little testing ground there at catlemaine
I can't wait for your review of the new Trek Slash+
We've got one on the way for review, looking forward to testing it out! [Wil]
Is it really? What the motors need is real world seals that work in wet conditions (not just during a limited testing period), leak detection that warns users that moisture ingress has occurred, seals that can be replaced by users. Real world durability is what’s needed by all manufacturers.
I agree!
I recently bought a second hand Scott Strike with a Bosch Performance motor. The most fun ive ever had on a bike, until the bearings siezed after barley one month. Now what did i do to it?
The gentleman i bought it from had taken care of it very well, but he had lubricated the main seals with oil, making dirt stick to them. As i did mechanic´s in school and have a average knowlage of mechanics, i wiped that clean and kept close attention to the seals on every wash (never with a pressure washer). I also didn´t use any brushes on them except once when i first removed the oil and grime, and i was very careful.
So it held for one month and then i got horrible bearing noise, no play, and error code 500 something. Proabably the most expensive toy i will ever buy.
I will make an attempt to rebuild the motor with the guides that are avalible by ebikemotorcentre dot com.
I know i did everything wrong, but a 6000 euro consumer toy should not be built like this.
So yours sucked a load of water too ? 😢
I have the same fluid VLT, but the higher spec, review is spot on. I have an Ochain on order due in next week that i am going to try out to see if it reduces some of the clacking noise on the descents. Will try to remember to update comment with results.
Check out Sam's bikes for a review on this technique.
@@jamesfeltham1250 Yeah i did see that video, the ochain actually arrived the other day, the carpark test it does actually help a little bit with the SX, however the chainline was incorrect with the ochain so im waiting for some spacers to come so i can try it properly on downhill.
I spoke with a chap recently who has the lighter motor. He was loving it in the South East of England. Then he went to Wales and found it lacked the oomph to get up the mountain tracks. Said he could not keep up with the higher powered ebike riders.
As a bosch and Fazua owner, can say the SX needs cadence like a rotary and the Fazua is alot more punchy down low and is far better from a lower cadence, however the Bosch units are far better quality control, having had 2 Fazua drive units replaced thus far in my Heckler SL.
And to clarify your stats on weight are incorrect, Bosch SX is 2kg so your correct there, Fazua is 1.96kg, not by much.
We hear you on the Fazua issues - we had the motor cut out randomly a few times on the Focus JAM2 SL, and the Heckler SL only made it 14km before the motor completely failed! We're still hopeful that Santa Cruz will send us a replacement to complete the review.
And you're dead right on the motor weights - the Fazua Ride 60 is 40g lighter than the Bosch SX. Factoring in the motor and battery as a complete system, the Bosch SX supposedly comes out lighter by 160-260g. Well, that's assuming we trust all of the claimed numbers from the manufacturers ;-)
[Wil]
My friend got issues with her fazua on a Heckler SL almost straight outta the box also.
@@AndreasJacobson pretty common mate unfortunately, I'm on 3
Want to k ow more on the prototype Gen 5 Bosch CX though how long till you get the ok to reveal?
Thanls fr the great review this is actually the same feel I had when I tested the SX on a Norco Fluid. I didnt had the chance to test the TQ on mountain trails.
Does the TQ need the same amount of cadence to achieve max power?
If not I guess the power difference feeling wont be that noticeable?
I really like the fact that we can remove the battery on TQ equipped bikes, make a great bike park solution for a 4-5 days a year situation.
no no no….the MGU is what we want…
hope you see this as it's weeks after this was released. my question is would a 28 tooth front chainring and or 160 mm cranks help with the cadence issues?
I can’t find a comparison between Bosch SX and Shimano EP801. Do you have any data you can share?
Thank you for the test.. Did you test it without the power of motor as well? Was there any resistance while pedaĺing? And if you can compare it with Fazua and TQ in this regard?
Very little resistance while pedalling without motor support. Bosch says there's 50% less drag than the CX motor, and it certainly feels very natural to me when you're above the 25km/h cutoff point. That said, I think most modern motors like the Fazua and TQ are pretty good in this regard. [Wil]
Any data on battery-cell degradation over time from your fine research into this side of mountain biking... e.g. after a full season of regular usage, then perhaps a 3 month lay off over winter?
Yep! We actually delved a bit into that topic in our Bosch Tuning Tips article: flowmountainbike.com/tests/tuning-tips-bosch-smart-system-emtb-review/
Here's the specific section on battery health;
"Lithium-Ion batteries offer the ability to recharge many hundreds, and often thousands of cycles. In the case of the Bosch PowerTube batteries, you should be able to get 1,500 complete discharge cycles before they start gradually losing capacity.
As with all Lithium-Ion batteries, your e-MTB battery is at its most stressed state when it’s either fully discharged or fully charged. According to Bosch, it’s best to store the battery on your e-MTB with between 30-60% charge. So rather than leaving your bike in the shed for a week after running the battery flat, give it a top-up before you put it away. Likewise, don’t leave it fully charged while it’s left dormant for three months over winter.
On that note, the battery will lose some of its performance when being stored or used in extreme temperatures. Ideally, the battery is best stored at room temperatures between 10-20°C. If you’ve had an injury and you know you’re not going to be riding your bike for a while, it might make sense to remove the battery and store it inside the house, especially during a hot Australian summer."
Hope that helps answer your question!
[Wil]
@@FlowMountainBikeUA-cam Thanks for all of that very useful info. Much appreciated...
I believe that Bosch and Shimano motors are landed on MTBs by a mistake. They were developed for a commuter bikes in mind for sure. That's the only way how can I explain those motor rattle noice and gigantic granny-style displays and controls.
Bosch is obviously the leader but the DJI will make a lot of people delay a purchase in the lightweight category
Very curious to see how the DJI motor performs, and if any of the big brands will pick it up. Guess we'll have to wait and see! [Wil]
Any feedback on reliability of this motor?
We've had flawless experience with the three SX motors we've tested so far, but obviously we'd need a lot more time to evaluate long-term reliability. Given the overall track record with the CX motor, the two-year warranty, Bosch's service network and the fact that there's nothing radically different in terms of the construction of the SX motor, we have very high expectations. [Wil]
Great review Wil 👍. How does the SX compare to EP8 RS on an older Rise in terms of ride feel? I'm guessing the peak power of 600W on the SX is the difference in terms of climbing prowess provided you get cadence up to 100rpm
Thanks Sandy!
It's been a while since I rode that OG Rise, but from memory the power delivery was really progressive and quite soft with the stock tune. I'd say the SX motor is perkier and more responsive, and the Extended Boost function is more prominent. Looking at my range test data, the SX motor achieved a faster average climbing speed too.
I believe the latest Rise allows you to open up the full 85Nm though, and Shimano has also released a firmware update for the EP801 motor that gives you more overrun right?
[Wil]
@FlowMountainBikeUA-cam Thanks for the feedback Wil, figured as much. Yes I believe EP801 gives increased peak power and overrun compared to EP8 to be more competitive against the CX. Oh well only way way to get more out of my motor to bring it closer to SX or EP801 would be to resort to third party apps which would void my warranty. Something to consider after 2 year motor warranty expires though, range extender would be needed methinks
Whats with the Canyon. They dont have them on there website
They’re not available in Australia just yet but will be in the near future - stay tuned to the Flow website as we’ll have the review dropping soon with loads more info! [Wil]
@@FlowMountainBikeUA-cam is that going to be the full range of Canyon E-MTBs. Would love to see your review on the Strive.
DJI?
No experience with the DJI motor just yet, but it sounds pretty impressive! Curious to see if any of the big brands pick it up, would be very interested to test it out. [Wil]
Over 100rpm? Really Bosch?
The powermore 250wh weighs 1,6kg while the 400wh battery weighs 2,0kg.
Any e-bike with a deraileur and not an integrated gearbox in the emotor is stone age tech. Pinion MGU is KING
They will have their problems just like everything else
Ah so it rattles like the CX. Not for me then. Can’t stand the rattle on my CX. I would rather settle for less performance and no rattle.
but it' still Bosch, with closed system and worst integration on the market... (no Ant+/BT etc.)
Only 800g difference from full power? Naaaaaaaah, full power it is.
Does it rattle like Shimano EP8…?
No it's not. It's not waterproof and too high cadence.
E-Bikes for sport are a non-sense... Not environment friendly at all : ressources costful and eroding more and more tracks and paths. If you're in good health and/or not cummuting, just use the good old muscular bikes. You can't pretend you wanna enjoy "nature" and keep spitting in its face. Toys for hipsters and tech nerds...
You are just providing free advertisement unless you talk about reliability, serviceability and maintainability, right to repair, IP (ingress protection) rating, and replacement cost.
Dji, more power similar weight. Sorry SX you've been upstaged
Totally! Not even close to the same performance.
Give me an integrated gearbox and something that goes 40 mph and I'll be happy.
KTM 300 EXC
Nope. Another weak SL.