A friend recommended your channel to me and I can see why. This is exactly the sort of layout I love where there’s a story, the scenery is realistic and the attention to detail is fantastic. I’m now down your rabbit hole gorging on all the videos, just a great layout, fantastic modelling and great videos. Thank you!
Thank you Rob! And welcome to Chandwell. I hope you enjoy your stay. The sun never shines in Chandwell, but as the Visit Chandwell Tourist Board slogan says, “its not as grim as you think it is” !
Unless you can absolutely control the viewing angle, forced perspective models/scenes are a nightmare. Great job on this scene. One of the hardest parts is effectively blending the road into the backdrop. A good trick is to make the road rise, then dip just before the backdrop. Much easier to pull off if there are no buildings, as you have. Again, well done.
Anyone can "Control" their viewing angle in a piece, it is just how many points of perspective you are willing to do to facilitate what you have. Have you ever tried double 4 point perspective?
Aaaaand once again - your genius is fully on show I see now why the graffiti and the craziness of Chandwell city is so creative, realistic and fun...the flask...
Persistent and patient, but it's paid off. Most would be happy with it looking good from one angle alone. It's some achievement to get it looking perfect from many. Cheers
Absolutely stunning vid. All those hours and bits of paper are really worth it in the end. Look forward to the building installments. Cheers mate Arthur
I stand back once more in amazement! When most layouts approach the back walI you hit your head on it (metaphorically!) but you have achieved something quite unique. I shall look forward to seeing those buildings in umm... well I guess that is 3D perspective.
It's really nice to see your thought and development process being explained and to appreciate all the hours that go into 'playing' with this to get it right. Thanks.
Hi Michael - can understand the time it takes just to do something that looks so simple. Same is true of putting in scenics - I've spent many hours completing a very small section on Blackwood. The mock up looks fantastic and once the actual buildings come to fruition it'll take the layout to another level - which is saying something as it's already one of the best UK modelled N gauge layouts. Cheers Euan
Planning. The most important part of the process. Nicely done. I'm sure I don't have to teach me granny anything, and I'm sure you have the pedigree of the Indoor Market in hand, considering that until quite recently it was a railway. Something ugly in peddledash, prefabricated concrete, along the lines of many a 1960s shopping centre monstrosity would be perfect. Thanks, Bob
You may be reading my mind. I have the absolute perfect prototype in mind. I videoed it last week ready for next week’s video, so keep your eye out for that one.
Thank you for the practical guide to perspective. Those move ups constitute some pretty fancy adjusting. It was nice seeing such work demonstrated. Thank you
@@Chandwell I'm just this minute watching the road episode, you really are a master of Inkscape, I'm pleased that you are now using mathmatics in the parameter boxes. When I found out that little trick it really improved how I used Fusion 360 and I'm pleased that Inkscape adopted the same method. I'll leave a comment on the roads episode when I've watched it 😂
Really pushing the envelope with this one. Alot of store front s in such a small space. The lead building on the left side will seal the deal for the transition. Keeping it taller, like the Las building will complement the illusion. Maybe a building or an abandon bridge pier. Looks really good so far. Thanks, Don
Well Michael 60 hours seams to have paid off, you certainly have more patience than me. If the build matches the plan then we are in for a treat. Many thanks for sharing take care Barry.
Such great precision, but it so needs it to get the correct visual effect from every angle. I am a diorama and 00 gauge railway modeller and I am in the design process of a large urban London scene for the next layout. I was always thinking of a forced perspective for the roads that disappear into the distance above and away over the sidings and cuttings below. So glad you put this video up, as it was exactly what I was looking for, and I couldn't find another one so well explained. I did think that having a road descend away into the distance would fool the eye, but the sharp turn to one side is a great effect, especially with the upturn of road to backscene. Well done on your perseverance on this. The new 18ft x 10 ft shed is arriving in 2 weeks, so the new build will commence once installed. I will send you over my interpretations of my forced illusions once the build gets momentum. Fantabulous explanation and details.
@Chandwell No worries on the kind words...it's the community of railway modelling world that keeps this grand hobby together. Shed coming this Thursday, but can send pics of 60's era shed boards already in progress..
Hi Michael - That was absolutely mind blowing. How on earth you finally did it I will never know, way above my pay grade. Far superior to Seamless Road, something about that one that to me just does not look right, but your new one is spot on. I think you might be looking at Seamless Road again. Quite excited to see the next stage, extremely fascinating and very clever. Regards Chris
@@Chandwell Penn Gillette says something people call something magic because they are not prepared to put the hours of practice in. I kinda feel this applies here.
Dear Michael, very, very cool field of depth you’ve used there. Absolutely agree that this setting very much adds to illusion the layout doesn’t end where the backdrop begins. Cheerio😊
Well spotted! It was a beloved building society until the scandal of 1988. Even the 1992 rebrand hasn’t done much to turn around its fortunes. I expect that building to be empty by Easter 1994.
Even in mock up form this looks amazing. Just one thing, the old branch line with the rail freight wagon on, when this used to cross the street I don’t see that you’re leaving a gap on the other side where the line would have continued? I realise new buildings do get built over old lines but just a thought. Brilliantly done.
Thanks Phil. The land opposite the spur will contain the Indoor Market. An awful concrete monstrosity thrown up in the 1960s after the bridge was dismantled. There will be visible remains of the rest of the Chandfield Spur behind the market in the form of more bridge abutments over Bridge Lane.
My membership was paused tried to resolve on iPad and iPhone wouldn’t update my card where changed banks. Managed to do now but on my windows laptop. Some videos won’t play on iPhone or iPad.
Hahah. It looks that way but not really. We’re a family of 5 and we maybe eat two boxes a month. I’m the card goes a long way. And several family members save their boxes when I’m running short!
Your trial and error method must have wasted you so much time - better to learn the correct method from the start and do it all in one hit. Could have drawn the unforced scene in plan and elev., overlaid the space available for the force, and simply projected the one onto the other based on a chosen point of view.
Hello and thank you for your reply. I’m trying to work out whether it was tongue-in-cheek, or genuine. Undoubtedly a 2D projection of a real scene would have given a more accurate result, but there is no chance I could have got to a satisfying result as quickly as I did using trial and error. Some thoughts… 1. I didn’t know what I wanted until I started. I didn’t know how long the street should be, where it should go, or what works and what doesn’t in the space. This is art not science. There would still have been a lot of trial and error but it would have had to be done much more accurately and therefore would have taken longer. 2. I don’t think 3D projection is something that someone who is bad at mathematics and drawing can “simply” pick up in a few days. I did read around the subject a little but phrases like “expand (convert) the versor to a 3×3 rotation matrix, which unlike those for Euler or Tait-Bryan angles…” just puts me off. My hobby is supposed to be fun, not a maths lesson. And thirdly, I doubt I would have had as much fun doing this as I did. It’s definitely a subject that seems interesting but thankfully it’s no longer needed; this section of the layout is done. Thank you again for taking the time to suggest an alternative, but I don’t agree that I made the wrong choice. 👍
@@Chandwell Well, just explaining that no way was your method quicker - that cannot be the case. FYI, I create forces for cinema feature films. There is no "3D projection" involved or necessary, it's all done in straightforward 2D drawings. Of course, it's your time and way of pleasure, I was just pointing out that your way of achieving the force is terribly inefficient and therefore not a good example to others who may wish to do similar work. Decide what you want to see first, and then do the simple drawing required to realize it accurately, first time, and efficiently. BTW, art and science are not mutually exclusive; only people deficient in the one or the other (or both) tend to say so.
Thank you. Something for me to learn one day perhaps. I never intimated in my video that my technique was correct or quick (quite the opposite). You are 100% correct that it would be quicker for you, who are experienced in this. I’d be starting from absolute zero and would have the entire learning part to do. I barely know what the words “plan and elevation” mean! Could you achieve what you do professionally after only a few days from when you understood none of it? I spent 70 hours on this, but 40 of those were spent doing the actual drawing, which I would have had to do anyway. I’m a visual learner who would have had to have started small - cubes on the flat, for example. I am sure I could not learn from scratch an art to a passable level in 30 hours AND get a completed mock up on my layout. And I can’t fathom how the projection technique would take into account the curve that transitions the horizontal baseboard onto the vertical wall. Without trial and error I would never have thought of that to include in the projection in the first place. I would have LOVED to have done it your way, but sadly, I just don’t know where I would have started. I don’t even know what to Google. All of my searches following your comment led me to computer code. I don’t fancy writing a bit of C++ to get this done! 😂 I am not discounting your comment out of hand, but I still disagree that it would have been quicker *for me* than what I already did. If you have any resources that would help, please do reach out, as I genuinely am interested, and grateful that you took the time to comment. Every day’s a school day, and this entire project is a massive learning journey for me. You can email hello@chandwell.uk.
@@Chandwell What the traditional method does for you is plot as many points along the curve as you need to draw a fair line though - it's as simple as the rest of it. It is worth learning how to do it all by simple projection; the next one you do will go much quicker, as will all the others you ever do. Good luck.
Thank you. I will. But can you give me a clue where to start… what’s the technique called? I tried searching for “3D to 2D projection” but just get computer stuff and loads of maths.
All that tinkering paid off! Taking a pic with the grid, then drawing on the pic was a great idea!
Thank you! If only I’d had the idea a bit earlier in the process!
Dedication and determination in the extreme Michael. Hats off to you. Amazing. Cheers, Bob
Thank you Bob!
A friend recommended your channel to me and I can see why. This is exactly the sort of layout I love where there’s a story, the scenery is realistic and the attention to detail is fantastic. I’m now down your rabbit hole gorging on all the videos, just a great layout, fantastic modelling and great videos. Thank you!
Thank you Rob! And welcome to Chandwell. I hope you enjoy your stay. The sun never shines in Chandwell, but as the Visit Chandwell Tourist Board slogan says, “its not as grim as you think it is” !
Looks great, can't wait for the build, Thank you so much for sharing
Thank you Dave!
Wow again Michael. Your patience and dedication are awesome. This is going to look amazing. Thanks for sharing your methodology. Roy.
Thanks Roy.
Quite mesmerising Michael. And there's no posh buggers left in Leeds. They're all over doing their Christmas shopping at Woollies in Chandwell.
Thanks Peter!
Unless you can absolutely control the viewing angle, forced perspective models/scenes are a nightmare. Great job on this scene. One of the hardest parts is effectively blending the road into the backdrop. A good trick is to make the road rise, then dip just before the backdrop. Much easier to pull off if there are no buildings, as you have. Again, well done.
Anyone can "Control" their viewing angle in a piece, it is just how many points of perspective you are willing to do to facilitate what you have. Have you ever tried double 4 point perspective?
Thank you Jeff. I’ll never get this perfect but it’s “good enough” now, I think.
Grant - no! I think my head would melt!
Well done, so much agonising over such small details. Thanks again Michael.
I thought this one would never end!
Aaaaand once again - your genius is fully on show
I see now why the graffiti and the craziness of Chandwell city is so creative, realistic and fun...the flask...
Ah yes. The flask! 😂🤣
Persistent and patient, but it's paid off. Most would be happy with it looking good from one angle alone. It's some achievement to get it looking perfect from many. Cheers
Thank you! It’s not perfect but it does seem to work enough to fool the eye once it’s blended into the background. I hope, anyway!
I wouldn’t know where to begin if I attempted anything like that. It looks so convincing under the bridge. I am again blown away by your patience.
Thanks Stu!
Hi Michael! I'm simply in awe of your skill, dedication and patience! I can't wait to see how this scene develops! All the best, Ian.
Thanks Ian! I hope I can pull it off.
Absolutely stunning vid. All those hours and bits of paper are really worth it in the end. Look forward to the building installments. Cheers mate Arthur
Thanks Arthur!
Wow, this is just amazing. Kudos to sticking with your effort to make it look just right.
Thank you Mark. This one took some labour!
You've cracked the forced perspective, matey! Really amazing!
Thanks Roy.
I stand back once more in amazement! When most layouts approach the back walI you hit your head on it (metaphorically!) but you have achieved something quite unique. I shall look forward to seeing those buildings in umm... well I guess that is 3D perspective.
I hope I can pull it off!
That must have been mindbending to work on.
My mind is well and truly bent!
It's really nice to see your thought and development process being explained and to appreciate all the hours that go into 'playing' with this to get it right. Thanks.
Glad you enjoy it!
Hi Michael - can understand the time it takes just to do something that looks so simple. Same is true of putting in scenics - I've spent many hours completing a very small section on Blackwood. The mock up looks fantastic and once the actual buildings come to fruition it'll take the layout to another level - which is saying something as it's already one of the best UK modelled N gauge layouts. Cheers Euan
Thanks Euan. You’re achieving amazing things at Blackwood. Always an inspiration yourself.
Congratulations to Chandwell Planning Dept! This is going to be good😎
Andrew🙂
Thank you Andrew!
That is just SO CLEVER! Amazing!
Thank you!
Absolutely brilliant testament to your perseverance. It's going to look great!
I hope so! :)
Planning. The most important part of the process. Nicely done.
I'm sure I don't have to teach me granny anything, and I'm sure you have the pedigree of the Indoor Market in hand, considering that until quite recently it was a railway.
Something ugly in peddledash, prefabricated concrete, along the lines of many a 1960s shopping centre monstrosity would be perfect.
Thanks,
Bob
You may be reading my mind. I have the absolute perfect prototype in mind. I videoed it last week ready for next week’s video, so keep your eye out for that one.
Thank you for the practical guide to perspective. Those move ups constitute some pretty fancy adjusting. It was nice seeing such work demonstrated. Thank you
Thank you Curt.
Wow - that’s a fantastic effect.
Thank you. It’s come out ok I think.
That looks terrific, Michael, from many angles.
It's amazing how much distortion is needed to fool the eye into believing that it really curves.
It is amazing isn’t it!
@@Chandwell I'm just this minute watching the road episode, you really are a master of Inkscape, I'm pleased that you are now using mathmatics in the parameter boxes. When I found out that little trick it really improved how I used Fusion 360 and I'm pleased that Inkscape adopted the same method. I'll leave a comment on the roads episode when I've watched it 😂
@@GeorgeK356 it’s a life-changer is using maths in the boxes!
Very well done! This is going to look amazing once you put it all together with all the textures in place.
I hope so! Hopefully I will be putting the road surface down tonight and then start to get a feel for it.
That was brilliant, I would never have solved those problems I would have lost patience all credit to you 👍 👍👍👍👍👍
Thank you!!
brilliant work Michael.
Thank you Paul.
Really pushing the envelope with this one. Alot of store front s in such a small space. The lead building on the left side will seal the deal for the transition. Keeping it taller, like the Las building will complement the illusion. Maybe a building or an abandon bridge pier. Looks really good so far.
Thanks,
Don
Thanks Don. I have the perfect building in mind for that leading building. Watch out next week!
Thanks Don. I have the perfect building in mind for that leading building. Watch out next week!
Hi Michael Just awesome work, you realy are dedicated to your chosen scene, great stuff! Thanks
Thanks Peter. Yes once I decide what I want to achieve, I get quite determined to pull it off!
Another extremely interesting video. Your skill, patience, and imagination levels are just amazing.
Barry.Devon
Thank you!
Well Michael 60 hours seams to have paid off, you certainly have more patience than me. If the build matches the plan then we are in for a treat. Many thanks for sharing take care Barry.
Thank you! I hope I can pull it off!
Brilliant work! Quite inspirational.
Thank you Peter.
Großartig und so faszinierend... so etwas habe ich noch nicht so überzeugend gesehen... ich bin begeistert von Deuner Arbeit... beste Grüße von Roland
Vielen Dank fürs Zuschauen und für deinen Kommentar!
Such great precision, but it so needs it to get the correct visual effect from every angle.
I am a diorama and 00 gauge railway modeller and I am in the design process of a large urban London scene for the next layout. I was always thinking of a forced perspective for the roads that disappear into the distance above and away over the sidings and cuttings below. So glad you put this video up, as it was exactly what I was looking for, and I couldn't find another one so well explained.
I did think that having a road descend away into the distance would fool the eye, but the sharp turn to one side is a great effect, especially with the upturn of road to backscene. Well done on your perseverance on this.
The new 18ft x 10 ft shed is arriving in 2 weeks, so the new build will commence once installed. I will send you over my interpretations of my forced illusions once the build gets momentum. Fantabulous explanation and details.
Thank you for your kind words and YES I would love to see your plans come to fruition. Please do send pictures!
@Chandwell No worries on the kind words...it's the community of railway modelling world that keeps this grand hobby together. Shed coming this Thursday, but can send pics of 60's era shed boards already in progress..
Hi Michael - That was absolutely mind blowing. How on earth you finally did it I will never know, way above my pay grade.
Far superior to Seamless Road, something about that one that to me just does not look right, but your new one is spot on.
I think you might be looking at Seamless Road again.
Quite excited to see the next stage, extremely fascinating and very clever.
Regards Chris
Thank you Chris. It’s amazing how these things evolve isn’t it!? You may be right!
This is superhuman
Just endless trial and error!
@@Chandwell Penn Gillette says something people call something magic because they are not prepared to put the hours of practice in. I kinda feel this applies here.
I’ll accept that! 🪄
Superb work👍
Thank you!
Funny, when I first saw the image it reminded me of Victoria St (In Edinburgh). Just avoid the cobbles, they'd be nightmare in forced perspective!
That street has always been an inspiration!
Dear Michael, very, very cool field of depth you’ve used there. Absolutely agree that this setting very much adds to illusion the layout doesn’t end where the backdrop begins. Cheerio😊
Thank you!
good vid on the build looks good thanks lee
Thanks Lee.
Chandwell and Bingley 😂😂😂😂 70 hours well spent ✌🏻
Well spotted! It was a beloved building society until the scandal of 1988. Even the 1992 rebrand hasn’t done much to turn around its fortunes. I expect that building to be empty by Easter 1994.
Even in mock up form this looks amazing. Just one thing, the old branch line with the rail freight wagon on, when this used to cross the street I don’t see that you’re leaving a gap on the other side where the line would have continued? I realise new buildings do get built over old lines but just a thought. Brilliantly done.
Thanks Phil. The land opposite the spur will contain the Indoor Market. An awful concrete monstrosity thrown up in the 1960s after the bridge was dismantled. There will be visible remains of the rest of the Chandfield Spur behind the market in the form of more bridge abutments over Bridge Lane.
@@Chandwell well I didn’t doubt you’d have this planned! 😄 I admire your patience in creating this miniature masterpiece.
You could teach a good few art tutors a thing or two about perspective. Nice work 👍
Haha. Not sure about that! Thank you!
Forced perspective is an art form, based on geometry. Brilliant work! What software are you using? Did I hear "Inkscape"?
Yes, I use INKSCAPE. It’s free and very good.
This looks great!
What did you have as the ideal, upward angle at the vanishing point?
I just used trial and error.
I miss Woolworth.
Yeah me too
My membership was paused tried to resolve on iPad and iPhone wouldn’t update my card where changed banks. Managed to do now but on my windows laptop.
Some videos won’t play on iPhone or iPad.
Sorry to hear that Derek. That’s very strange. I do all my video stuff on my iPad and have never had any problems.
God, you must eat a load of cereals!
Hahah. It looks that way but not really. We’re a family of 5 and we maybe eat two boxes a month. I’m the card goes a long way. And several family members save their boxes when I’m running short!
Your trial and error method must have wasted you so much time - better to learn the correct method from the start and do it all in one hit. Could have drawn the unforced scene in plan and elev., overlaid the space available for the force, and simply projected the one onto the other based on a chosen point of view.
Hello and thank you for your reply. I’m trying to work out whether it was tongue-in-cheek, or genuine. Undoubtedly a 2D projection of a real scene would have given a more accurate result, but there is no chance I could have got to a satisfying result as quickly as I did using trial and error. Some thoughts… 1. I didn’t know what I wanted until I started. I didn’t know how long the street should be, where it should go, or what works and what doesn’t in the space. This is art not science. There would still have been a lot of trial and error but it would have had to be done much more accurately and therefore would have taken longer. 2. I don’t think 3D projection is something that someone who is bad at mathematics and drawing can “simply” pick up in a few days. I did read around the subject a little but phrases like “expand (convert) the versor to a 3×3 rotation matrix, which unlike those for Euler or Tait-Bryan angles…” just puts me off. My hobby is supposed to be fun, not a maths lesson. And thirdly, I doubt I would have had as much fun doing this as I did. It’s definitely a subject that seems interesting but thankfully it’s no longer needed; this section of the layout is done. Thank you again for taking the time to suggest an alternative, but I don’t agree that I made the wrong choice. 👍
@@Chandwell Well, just explaining that no way was your method quicker - that cannot be the case. FYI, I create forces for cinema feature films. There is no "3D projection" involved or necessary, it's all done in straightforward 2D drawings. Of course, it's your time and way of pleasure, I was just pointing out that your way of achieving the force is terribly inefficient and therefore not a good example to others who may wish to do similar work. Decide what you want to see first, and then do the simple drawing required to realize it accurately, first time, and efficiently.
BTW, art and science are not mutually exclusive; only people deficient in the one or the other (or both) tend to say so.
Thank you. Something for me to learn one day perhaps. I never intimated in my video that my technique was correct or quick (quite the opposite). You are 100% correct that it would be quicker for you, who are experienced in this. I’d be starting from absolute zero and would have the entire learning part to do. I barely know what the words “plan and elevation” mean! Could you achieve what you do professionally after only a few days from when you understood none of it? I spent 70 hours on this, but 40 of those were spent doing the actual drawing, which I would have had to do anyway. I’m a visual learner who would have had to have started small - cubes on the flat, for example. I am sure I could not learn from scratch an art to a passable level in 30 hours AND get a completed mock up on my layout. And I can’t fathom how the projection technique would take into account the curve that transitions the horizontal baseboard onto the vertical wall. Without trial and error I would never have thought of that to include in the projection in the first place. I would have LOVED to have done it your way, but sadly, I just don’t know where I would have started. I don’t even know what to Google. All of my searches following your comment led me to computer code. I don’t fancy writing a bit of C++ to get this done! 😂 I am not discounting your comment out of hand, but I still disagree that it would have been quicker *for me* than what I already did. If you have any resources that would help, please do reach out, as I genuinely am interested, and grateful that you took the time to comment. Every day’s a school day, and this entire project is a massive learning journey for me. You can email hello@chandwell.uk.
@@Chandwell What the traditional method does for you is plot as many points along the curve as you need to draw a fair line though - it's as simple as the rest of it.
It is worth learning how to do it all by simple projection; the next one you do will go much quicker, as will all the others you ever do. Good luck.
Thank you. I will. But can you give me a clue where to start… what’s the technique called? I tried searching for “3D to 2D projection” but just get computer stuff and loads of maths.