Honestly, that episode of vanguard was one of the ones that I enjoyed more. Not because of the "I bought a pack this morning and happened to get this plot armor card", but more for showing that tcg are about trying to improve your deck and strategy and how the outcome of games are heavily influenced by how you prepare before you even get to the event.
I'm just now getting around to the series (I know nothing about the actual game outside of the anime) and I'd heavily agree. It's a massive positive that they actually address HOW the deck gets better, instead of Yugioh's "ah, but I pulled this card out of my ass"). Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike any of the franchises in Yugioh that use the blatant asspulls (looking at you, DM, GX, and Zexal), but actually getting a REASON why the card was there made it better. Now... about the 5 year old who's obsessively creepy to the 7 year old who's obsessively creepy to the main protagonist's younger sister, but is better at the card game than people who went to the National tournament, which the show makes a big deal about...
As a response to that episode of Vanguard you mentioned, I actually really like when card game anime/manga lean into it's more realistic side. As a Yugioh player, I am used to seeing the anime constantly give characters supernatural plot armor through them just creating cards out of thin air. However whenever the show gets more "real" and puts a focus on the fact that it's still just a card game, it gets really fascinating sometimes. Like the best example in my eyes is the the final duel of the Grand Championship filler arc. There is no supernatural elements, no fighting to save the world, just someone with a petty grudge trying to cheat at a card game. Zigfried; the main villain of the arc; gave his younger brother Leon a powerful spell card and told him to use it in the finals. After playing it, it's revealed the card was an unreleased proto-type that was not at all balanced for the actual game and that Zigfried had hacked into the game's servers to make the illegal card legal. He also manually modified the card's data files so it no longer did what it said on the card and instead gave his brother a ludicrously unfair advantage. In the end though, Yugi ending up beating the unfair card because Zigfried got overzealous with the card's maintenance cost. The card is supposed to force the user to mill half their deck and he changed it to make the opponent mill half their deck instead. Once Yugi's deck was almost gone, he was no longer able to pay the cost since you can't "Send half of one card to the graveyard" so it destroyed itself.
I enjoy the Chaotic show for a similar idea. Yeah they tend to battle as the creatures rather than just play the card game. But, you see them trade for rare cards, lose plenty of battles, have to figure out how to counter certain strategies using an odd card pool, and the Chaotic Dromes are just like a giant locals with mainly cool people but a few jerks as well.
Don’t forget the ludicrously specific effects Zexul in particular had tonnes of really niche cards because they had a rule that only a number could destroy another number (but not like as an actual rule it was apparently printed on the cards as an effect so it could be negated) You’ll see it most common with them adding cards that say things like if you opponent takes battle this turn but the monster was not destroy do this specific effect
As a vanguard player i actually love that you dont like it and are vocal about its flaws. whether its the release schedule or how ridiculous the show is and how vanguard kinda keeps growing despite itsself and how it breaks and flirts with multiple sins of card game design. most people who make content for tcgs and vanguard especially arent willing to talk bad about it and give it respectable criticism. Also some of vanguards flaws are part of what makes it fun and entertaining for the people who do play, have found or founded successful communities to where shops are willing to bring product in and supply the players with a place to play casually and with proper tournaments. Bushiroad in general has alot of issues with its card game designs, marketing, and distribution for all of its games and im glad to find someone who actually sees that and calls them out
Very much same. I’ve been playing it for years and it’s refreshing to see someone address actual issues the game has beyond “it’s for weebs”. Every game has flaws and you can like a game both in spite and because of flaws. I appreciate this criticism he has been sharing. A good example of this is the “I used money and bought a pack!” critique he had. It was fair but it was also a rather refreshing moment to have a card game protagonist get better the same way people do IRL. While it did eventually become “save the world with a children’s card game” that pretty much every card game show is, it still has realistic moments like that that keep it grounded even in the recent seasons.
@@MrZer093 I think its the fact that it gradually turned into a "save the world" story rather than focusing on one from the get-go was a smart move. It allowed us to better appreciate the world and its people before throwing us into the midst of an end of the world scenario. I actually had a reason to care about it and its people.
I absolutely love the quote "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and the worst form of competition". That'll be in my brain rent free forever!
It is true the ceo came to teach dragoborne I was there with him and literally 2 other people (idk who the other two people were). The CEO, his son and the head designer were there. We didn’t even get much space to learn lol. But yeah in our state there’s almost no vanguard I know of only one shop and it’s an hour away and then next closest one is an hour away in another state. And to get the one shop in our state to stock vanguard we (me and 2 other friends) had to set up and run tournies without prize support for a bit to prove we had a player base, wasn’t easy. Kohdok is allowed to not like something and he’s allowed to have an opinion and view point which he has backed up. So just give him a break. He makes amazing videos and tries so hard. Just cut the man a break.
"pokemon doesn't have interrupts" ACKCHUALLY...! it did have interrupts once, back in the DPPt era. there's only one i remember: "Team Galactic's Invention G-103 Power Spray"
It is taking people time to get your videos recommended by UA-cam, but i think you have found your best format: Tlk about game design and giving love across many games rather than just one niche game, so that fans across games can enjoy it. Please keep making this kind of material and I look forward to what you come up with once the 7 sins are finished.
I have to hard disagree on that issue with that one episode of Vanguard regarding the Gordin card. I am so used to card game animes just being about the power of friendship that it's actually VERY refreshing for me when they treat the game they're playing AS a card game. You buy booster packs in stores and keep opening them and you'll find a card in the new set that really supports your deck! I actually WANT card game anime to not be so afraid of being a bit more realistic: Worry about deck balance, creature types, synergy, etc. As much as I love the Yugioh anime, that's one major problem I always had: Yugi's deck should never have won anything. That deck is atrocious, has no consistency, minimal synergy, no real strategy, only one copy of every card he had.... It drove me crazy that he only kept winning because he had plot armor. Well...that and his opponents were often running decks almost as bad, if not worse.
That vanguard example only ever happened like... twice. In the first chunk of season 1. I really dont think it's as big an aspect as you seem to think.
God, i'm kinda obsessed with this double identity Bushiroad has as souless card game company and creator of some of the greatest fictional bands of all time.
Duel Masters is the best card game, especially for beginners. Easy life point system using shield systems, blocking mechanic, only one ATK stat per card, and most importantly you can utilize your useless hand cards as a mana source
I was so hyped for Bakugan, but it was all ruined when 5 months passed without any new of a new set coming to Canada. And now it’s been more than a year and a half, still no sign of set 2, and we have to deal with multi language cards
You mention when a game addresses a grievance. I'm new to the channel, and am really just sinking my teeth in with these Sins videos, but have you looked at Keyforge? It's designed by the man who originally designed Magic the Gathering as a response to his distaste for the secondary market and to embrace the newbie feel of playing with what you get. What are your thoughts on that game?
It seems to keep trucking along but I got tired of chasing halfway good decks that fit my style. It actually gets more expensive when you chase decks that are opened. Love the gameplay not the sales model
I've been building a card game on and off for a few months now that was originally built to be playable within Minecraft, but I've since realized that it could just as easily be played as an actual physical game. I basically took my favorite parts from existing card games and cobbled them together to make something kinda new. It's based on resources similar to how Hearthstone's work, where you get one per turn no matter what, so you don't need to worry about resource droughts or floods... But recently I thought it might be cool to add optional resource cards for the different types of cards in the game that would be used to, for example, pay the cost of a Creature's ability. Like, say you pay 2 resources to deal 1 damage, or you could pay just one "colored" resource to get the same effect. Still workshopping that. I like the deck-building puzzle of figuring out how many lands or energy cards to put in my Magic/Pokemon decks, but I don't like it when I get too many/little resource cards... I also wanted to make it so that you could basically open just enough packs so that you had enough for a deck, put all those random cards together, and have it work cohesively. As opposed to ending up with too many colors, two or three cards of an archetype that you're meant to build an entire deck with and which are useless on their own, or other things like that. Heck, you could sell a "random starter deck" box that just contains three packs, a life counter die, and some resource tokens in it, and whatever cards are in those packs, you could use as a deck. It just may or may not be a super great one. I'd love to discuss and workshop my ideas for the game with people who are card game enthusiasts since it's been a little tough for me to develop it on my own! Some other ideas I used are limited card zones and really small deck sizes, like in Yu-Gi-Oh Duel Links (Or "speed duels", if you prefer) specifically. I also have "power" cards that act like the Skills in Duel Links, or like the Hero Powers in Hearthstone, where they are always present and not technically on the board, either just to always give you something you can do even without any cards, or just as a passive effect that you can build your deck around. For example, you might choose a power that lets you pay 2 resources once per turn to deal some damage or gain back some life, or maybe you have a combo deck, so you choose to use the Power that gives you an extra card in your opening hand (But at the opportunity cost of not having a constant effect you can use every turn). It's pretty much like Yu-Gi-Oh in that, while there are certain attributes that cards have, and those attributes can be interacted with, they can be seamlessly meshed together into a deck, no problem. But if you wanted to, you could choose to build a deck with only one "tribe" in it that specifically makes use of buffs and abilities targeting that "tribe". Anyway, time for me to shut up. Is there maybe a Discord server for this channel? Might be a better place to get thoughts on my game. xD
I miss Duel Masters so much... I’m gonna be honest, I do play Vanguard now, but a lot of it does feel like it’s trying to be a Duel-Masters-but-slightly-different
Dragon Ball Super is basically just Duel Masters mixed with Cardfight Vanguard. DBS has the guarding from hand and the leaders essentially have limit break. Cardfight Vanguard actually has just added spells (orders) to the game, and they are once per turn. Keyforge isn't quite a TCG, but the rules are surprisingly fresh. At the start of your turn, you have to choose between 1 of your 3 houses, and then you can only play or use cards from those houses, unless you use card effects to play outside of house. You win by collecting aember and forging keys, and to do that your creatures can reap for aember. So you have to make a lot of hard choices each game. Do you choose the house with more cards to play or one with more cards that can be used? Do you want to reap and race for aember, use your creatures to fight, or use card effects to take away your opponent's aember? I hope some games in the future take inspiration from some of these mechanics. Also, another unique deck card game could be interesting; maybe a Japanese one to appeal to a different niche.
Here's a very niche (time frame wise) interrupt that DID exist in Pokemon. During the SP era, aka Diamond and Pearl, there was these cards that allowed you to play higher level Pokemon for less of a cost than traditional evolution. If you had more than 4 of these cards in play. During your opponent's turn, you had an effect veiler. It's a 1 off (mechanic wise) that's never come up prior or since. And people that still routinely play that format actually talk about how much they despise the card. Since it slows down the pace of an already somewhat slow format, as compared to the modern day.
I think part of the problem might that *because* the "big three" are so different, as you put it, it's hard to make something that *isn't* imitating one or the other. Yu-Gi-Oh has no resources, MtG has global and static resources, and Pokemon has card-specific resources. MtG and YGO have the players themselves as the target, while Pokemon makes the summons the target. So how do you make a "monster fighting" game (which is likely the easiest game type to make) that *doesn't* follow any of those paradigms (especially if you include the 'styles' of a few lesser games like Duel Master)?
Three ways to do this: 1. Implement a completely different type of system: the original Dragon Ball Z TCG was designed to mimic the drawn out, epic clashes seen in the anime. Instead of having characters "fight" in one-off battles, you'd have combat cards you'd play from your hand. Combat was an "our turn" system where both players went back and forth playing out their combat cards until their hands were empty, and then resolve the damage done afterwards. 2. Differentiate yourself with other mechanics: Bakugan is a good example of this with the whole rollable figure thing. 3. Utilize variations on a theme: Neopets TCG was focused on "contests" between Neopets, similar to how the Pokemon TCG was built around battles between Pokemon, but it had four different stats for four different types of contests rather than a single set of stats for conventional battles.
4:40 Ohhh nonononono!!!! Clearly the developers just went "Yea, Mana sucks, lets use Life", they don't know the atrocity of "Channel" ->(Pay All life but 1)-> "Fireball" (You Are Dead). The only Life that matters in a card game is the very last one.
there seems to be 2 amounts of LP that matter. enough to stay in the game and so much that the opponent just can't kill you. granted the latter is hard to get working in most games.
Now having seen this, I understand your argument for vanguard, as a player i only play three clans and I try to not buy anything new unless it's support for one of those three clans. But i will say location isnt an issue for me, as I live an hour away from three game stores and all three support vanguard in some way, wether it be with product or by having locals. So I have never had the same issues so to speak with stores and this game as many others seem to have
Honestly talking about how different the big 3 are, I cannot think of 3 more different games, going from ‘resource for everything’ to ‘resource to push closer to the win condition but not for game state’ to ‘what’s a resource’. From ‘colours shape your deck’ to ‘colours and staples’ to ‘this combo of synchrons, crystrons, mecha phantom beasts, deskbots, heralds and borrel/rokkets is pretty splashable Huh’. It’s From ‘a coherent style being used to explore waves of similar themes at a time’ to ‘adhering strictly time internal designs made first and foremost for a video games to make everything feel tied together’ to ‘explore as many themes as possible connected by a loosely coherent clean/anime art style’ Yugioh and magic look on paper like they’d be smaller niche styles compared to the main competition being on magic style going by the number of games the imitate it but what it ends up as is all 3 take up a major niche and seriously owns their niches, no game can boast being able to play as explosively as yugioh and they will never survive trying to. I think for all it’s flaws this is how vanguard managed to keep it’s head above water for every sin it’s broken. It’s still different enough to have cut out it’s own niche instead of fighting the niche’s the others already occupy
Something I have not heard or seen yu mention was VS, the Super Hero cards game. It lasted several years, was well made,and ddressed many of the issues with MtG and other card games. For those who don't know, you drew two cards each turn, but had a starting and maximum hand size of only 5. You could play any card face down as a resource, so never had "mana screw" or "mana food" in your deck. There were cards which were ideal as your face down resources, as you could flip them face up for a one time and/or ongoing effect. However, if you were "screwed", you could still play a hero or anything else face down as a resource in a pinch to stay in the game and not fall behind in tempo. I never played competitively, but I saw that it was an amazing game. No idea why it died, but it had a huge following where I lived and played. We had 30+ player tournaments and a huge economy with tons of binders and product and official support.
Absolutely, however the more games that come out, the more difficult it is to be unique. And it's hard to add interesting, balanced and long-lasting new mechanics to really anything.
Claims to keep his personal opinion of Vanguard out of his videos only to groan in disgust every video when he feels the need to bring it up. You also forgot UFS, which is somehow still alive and releasing product even though it has a player base that’s probably around 100, but borrows barely anything if all from the big 3 and has been copied into other TCG’s like the MegaMan NT Warrior TCG.
It name changed to Universus. It's also the *only* TCG with any kind of player base in my area outside of Magic and YGO. Even now we have weekly tournaments. I love just how different it is from everything, and all the different properties. I'm still waiting for the My Hero Academia release. I think they're really banking on it to blow the game up.
I'm honestly really surprised how long UFS/Universus has lasted. over 10 years and 3 publishers and still going. I think it's clear the game's special, just competing in a crowded market.
Love this series you've got going. It's pretty neat hearing you compare all these different card games and why a lot of them failed/succeeded. I wonder if you've ever thought of doing a video for Dinosaur King?
The Spoils is a game im sad i didnt play until recently after it had already died. It reminds me alot of magic, but also is very interesting and fun to play.
I'm currently making my second card game (through the game crafter) and the first one I published called Bridge To Ravenhelm, felt too similar to MTG. So I have now stopped making that game and am now making a new game called The Ninth Sea that has all original mechanics that I've never seen in any other card game
i think what makes the big three so different is simply **how** you play cards. in mtg you use lands, in pokemon you place them but cant use them without the right amount of energy and Yu-gi-oh to my knowledge you just place them and they sometimes have a sacrificial aspect. None of them play cards the same so even though they have similarities, that simple aspect makes it feel so different. on the side of animating and school ive tried developing some ide for a future card game and the ONE aspect i have never changed is it's unique summoning system.
Ok, on the whole "take ten minutes to play one turn and go through your whole deck" thing... for MTG you mainly see that with big mana ramp decks, it's not universal. And with Pokemon it was mainly something that could happen back in the old days, with Rain Dance decks. Once the supporter rule was put in place limiting engine trainers to an absolute once per turn, that kinda put a stop to things.
Mtg used to use a system for life tracking involving to different size beads with one for sets of 5 life and the other for ones. I actually tried it because dollar tree sells similar beads.
really and truly that applies to any product you make. From entertainment to food, don't imitate, innovate. If your product is similar to an opponents, it needs something that will make people have a preference.
"Pokemon doesn't have interrupt effects" Kinda? As a general rule, no, but occasionally one does show up. Team Galactic’s Invention G-103 Power Spray was a card you could play on your opponent's turn when the opponent used a Pokepower and you had two or more Pokemon-SP in play. It stopped that Pokepower from working. The Sinnoh era in general was when TPC started really experimenting with different mechanics.
If you're doing another Redakai-specific video, I'll get you up to speed with the mechanics from the set that wasn't released in English. I've got links for artwork etc for unreleased cards if you want any of that for it too. There's still no deck searching. They provided a weak erratum for Drudger. He now doesn't heal any damage when put into play. (Not that this remotely addresses the issue with his effect but they did it anyway...) New keyword is FURY which is active while your hand contains two or less cards. There are REACT cards which only work while you have FURY as well. Monsters have been printed with REACT abilities that can be used while in play (rather than while in hand) to boost Defence values. New mechanic is Combo Attack where if you have both of the cards in hand, you can play them both for the cost written on the main card which has a transparent zone for the number from the accompanying card's leftmost digit to be added to the power. New Character cards (yay) but their abilities are mostly mediocre. The new Maya gives an attack +500 when you play a monster on her, Boomer makes your opponent recharge 2 less Kairu when you play a Monster on him, Ky lets you recharge Kairu equal to the cost of a Metanoid played on him. Teeny is a Koz, but for Monsters. Zane is a Doombringer when you play Bruticon on him. There's a new engine Monster called Dragus and all of his versions accelerate your game-state. The Gold Dragus lets you draw an extra card every time you draw, The Blue Dragus lets you gain 1 extra Kairu every time you gain 1 Kairu and the Komodo Terror Dragus lets you play a Monster for free if you play one Monster. The metagame would have been a case of Attacking engines like Metanoid - Solar Plasma + Psychic Rage vs Defending engines like the now more consistent Frudge-Slap combo. The tier below that is Chemaster spam where you play loads of Chemasters in one turn because the regular ones are free to play because of the Gold one. Was the game design perfect? No. However, I feel like the game died before they were able to get creative with it in the US.
@@Kohdok Newly discovered Redakai card 'Plasma Hammer' was designed to stop Frudge Slap. It's a Combo Attack which when played, deals all 3 bars of damage and cannot be stopped. Costs 8 Kairu and the companion Attack is Absolute Frost.
The thing about imitation and competition can apply to all kinds of media, not just card games. I have been magic a Magic the Gathering reskin for a while. Now I am finishing that up. Then I want to go into something more creative. Reskinning is good for learning about a game. However it does not make a good product. I didn't know there was a grievence in the resource system of Magic the Gathering. Pokemon has something similar to that. I was thinking about doing a whole different way to doing resources. It oesn't involve using resource colors of diffrent colors or elements. Maybe this is a good way to go. I like the Hearthstone resource system. Players automaticly get a mana crystal at the start of thier turn. Then they use thier mana crystals to fuel thier spells. My pet peeve is randomness. I hate ranomness in games with a passion. So I thought of ways to avoid it. Every move and effect has perfect accuracy. A player can choose the card they want before they draw. There are no randomized booster packs. Each card product has the same cards in all of its copies. I ought to watch videos of the top worst things in the Mgic the Gathering and Pookemon card games. Maybe I can get some ideas. I am not experienced with Yu-Gi-Oh. So I wouldn't understand the issues very well.
Hi! Just found your channel and very much enjoy your content! Thanks for that and keep up the good work! Did you ever checked out "KeyForge"? Also made by Richard Garfield, pretty cool game/concept. Would love to see a Video about it.
To be fair, YuGiOh!/Duel Monsters is very similar to Magic than Pokemon... Both have Life Points The Creatures/Monsters in both franchises have Strength and Toughness/Attack and Defense Points All Permanents have Summoning Sickness, but only the Creatures/Monsters are affected by it Some Creatures/Monsters have abilities that can be activated/triggered when they're summoned/enter the battlefield or when certain requirements are reached You can place cards face down on the battlefield that can flipped anytime (For Magic we have Morph, Mega Morph, and Manifest all of which can only be flipped if they're permanents/The card says it can be flipped face up. YuGiOh!/Duel Monsters can place only Magic and Trap Cards face down and, I believe, Monsters as well as long as there being placed in Def. Mode) YuGiOh!/Duel Monsters "Magic" and "Trap" Cards are basically MtG's "Sorcery" and "Instant" Cards (And Both franchises have a few "Magic"/"Sorcery" cards that can be played during an opponents turn) Both have ways to grab cards from the Graveyard/Discard Pile and the Library (Magic's term for the Deck)/Deck I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
Sorry if my comment came off as rude I just see this things as basic card game staples like how video games have staples. It kinda feels like calling Mario similar to Zelda.
@@acehero498 You could say that, but that's sort of a limited scope I feel. Magic in general has defined TCG because it was the first, but you CAN make a TCG that doesn't use a graveyard the same way or doesn't summon monsters/creatures the same way. If you look at the time they were created, I agree with you, these mechanics defined these games at the time, but card games, in general, are much broader now, and there's amazing room for possibility and new varied ideas.
@@brandonj8372 That's true, that and the fact you could target a monster for an attack and needed to go through that monster to attack directly, really made Yugioh such a different beast
@@acehero498 your comment didn't seem rude to me. Anyway, that's my point. Mtg made the basic mechanics and YuGiOh/Duel Monsters followed in Magics footsteps (from the start, at least). Pokemon, however did it's own thing from the start. In Pokemon, the players don't have life points Players have no maximum hand size Pokemon doesn't have a 2nd main phase. It goes: upkeep, draw step, main phase, combat phase, and end players can't play anything or use abilities during an opponent's turn. Players can have up to 6 creatures on the field, but only 1 of them is out fighting the opponents 1v1 style and can switch with any other Pokemon you control on the field. You can transform your Pokemon into a stronger Pokemon after it's been on the field for at least 1 turn You get a reward for kOing the opponents Pokemon. Getting 6 rewards is one way of winning the game. KOing all the opponents creatures that are currently on the field is another way to win.
It is funny that you mention Vanguard, because that is kind of the "unofficial" game of my local hobby store. Friday is Magic, Saturday is YuGiOh tournaments, then every Sunday is (was, due to Covid) official Vanguard tournaments. They have a quarter of their card section devoted to the game, and dozens upon dozens of regulars play the game, and have been playing for YEARS. A couple of years ago I almost got talked into joining, but became dissuaded when I could find NO support or sales for the game at all online.
Honestly, I miss Kaijudo. I preferred it over Magic honestly. I felt like the cards that were there let me be a lot more creative than what I had seen from magic at the time. Now I play Commander and see that magic honestly lets me have fun doing dumb and ridiculous things with the right play group. Despite the love I have for magic now, if Kaijudo or duel masters came back I'd pick them up again alongside magic assuming I have people to play with. I hope the digimon game works out over here. Played the tutorial app and enjoyed it. Not sure if this is just me, but it did remind me of kaijudo in some areas.
Can you talk about the acceleracer collectable card game? It had a unique way of winning the game and has a different kind of resources to play cards. I feel like it would do well and mettel might have a gold mine if they put focus on it.
The impression I get from watching your videos is that releasing a trading card game after Magic's release is the tabletop equivalent of trying to release an MMORPG after World of Warcraft.
10:07 here in Latinoamérica MyL (mitos y leyendas) was a big thing and it used the deck as life points, sadly i think it's barely alive and only in Chile now
I started working on a card game back in 2003 but it never went anywhere.... It would have been before the dudes in alaska created the Elder Dragon Highlander formatand my game I was amking was very similar to EDH The thing I found is some of the mechanics I was trying to make would have been hard to do in paper and would be more suitible for a digital format. I may or may not return to the design at some time, or i may or may not just capitalize the story and the world and use it for something else.
Have you considered reviewing/giving a history of dice masters (which is a weird one that I do think still exists but doesn't have a deck) or the recently discontinued Star Wars Destiny.
Its been awhile since I played a tcg but I remember vanguard basically killing yugioh in my area; when it came out. Also nobody plays pokemon in my area magic is well magic
before i knew it's origin, i got really into duel masters and i would tell people it's mtg for dummies. but i legit loved duel masters and remain ambivalent towards mtg to this day (probably because i'm not a hardcore tcg player, just casual)
I would like in your series that you would look more in the card games Score Entertainment made (Dragon Ball Z TCG, Buffy the Vampire Slayer). They were all long lasting (no 2 years curse), cool game concepts, good design.
I'm trying to design a CCG and my biggest roadblock at the moment is the turn cycle Like I have no idea how to make the board special, how to do anything other than "upkeep, draw, M1, combat, M2, end", or how to make combat interesting/different yet not nuanced
Legends of Runeterra (League of Legends based online card game) does a pretty fun one. At the start of each player's turn, all the mana for both players is refilled (mana system similar to hearthstone). Then, the "active player" gets an attack token (allowing them to initiate combat), draws a card, and chooses an action (play a spell, make an attack, or pass). The opponent can choose to interrupt, then the active player can counter that, etc. Once the action is done, then the opponent can choose an action. This continues until both players pass their actions, then the turn ends and the opponent becomes the active player.
I want to bring back the Wow TCG and VS System Feel.... those games are not around anymore, but I kinda love some of the Ideas they had. Are they too MTG like?
Revisiting this video looking back, all the unique games really are kind of just floating around in the HTCG community where no one is looking. I've played literally hundreds of them and had it not been for the fact that half of them are broke college students who can't fund their passion, they can't even get noticed or begin producing anything with quality. Sad reality but 'tis life. I myself have been finding much joy in grid based tactical RPTCGs like Genesis, HeroFusion and Taboo Contract. All of them are extremely intricate and different from one another too, and they all lack the generic resource system clones we've come to expect of some newer games. Have you dabbled with any of them?
I agree with you about vanguards early branding but seeing as it’s now impossible to find the first series episodes in the west and they have been trying to push the reboot could you judge the reboot branding. I’d really like to see an analytical review on the reboot/ card game reboots in general.
Yinyanyeow season one of the vanguard anime was lost due to licensing issues something something dubbing company or English distributor or something. They had the 1st ten episodes of the original up for a limited time but I’m pretty sure those are all privatized now.
Kohdok why there isn’t any pack openings anymore and while the series is more grounded (which is its strength and appeal) it fixed the previous series’ issue of mostly meaningless/plotless cardfights, there are actual stakes and reasons behind conflicts just unlike other tcg anime they are stakes that actually make sense to have the fate be settled on playing a children’s card game, and they don’t run into as many stupid situations as other similar anime do with bogus stuff like “you can’t get through unless you beat me in a children’s card game” or “my villainous plan only really works if I beat people in a children’s card game but all the characters still decide to play card games with me despite the fact that they have basically nothing to gain from it” also when stakes are super high like end of the world stakes they are usually falling victim to what I often refer to as antistakes stakes where it can actually cause a viewer to lose investment due to the absurdity and complete impossibility of the negative result. If your problem isn’t a grounded slice of life style sports anime esque approach then please elaborate on just what it is you despise about this series.
Jeez are you ever gonna let that Vanguard thing go the show have evolve beyond the first series they stop doing that bad thing in the first series seriously your hatred for Vanguard is seriously binding I have so much of my friends love the series
@@four-en-tee i do agree with most of the criticism he actually pointed out mostly that bushiroad is garbage at marketing as well (vanguard zero is proof of that already) but what i dont agree on is vanguard being so disliked because he threw a fit towards a kid who likely felt like having fun. Or the fact that he got pissy over a quote of all things that might as well have been accidental. That and his argument over the anime sucked
I am incredibly fascinated by your reason for hating Vanguard. Because it is the exact opposit for me. The exact same reason is why I loved Vanguard. Past tense. I guess it is addressing a grievance with Card Game Anime. How did Yugi? Shoubu? Dan? Whoever win their tournaments and card games? Because of FRIENDSHIP! and Shounen Protagonism. Which Vanguard is fully guilty of today. But back when Aichi pulled Gordon. The reason why he won was because he was willing to experiment with a card noone else had considered and he made it work in his deck. Later they address win condition and most of the episodes during the first 2 seasons take place in card shops or at organized events with very grounded stakes. Something I could relate to, that felt like it actually addressed playing a card game instead of brushing over it in favor of cool looking action packed monster battles.
Game Idea: Card game with literal rock-paper-scissors mechanic. Lets say a sci-fi military themed game, where infantry beats tanks, which beats mechs, which beats infantry. Have it built into the rules...
I think the whole "lack of store representation brought on as a result of being unable to meet demands for specific clans due to the rate that cards need to be printed out at" argument from your original video was spot on (as well as there's the issue that if you're getting into Vanguard and you don't have any other real experience with past card games, you may not understand what clans are for you and you may end up buying decks as a result that you may never even play with again after purchasing; trial decks only alleviate the problem a little bit), but I also think you're incredibly biased towards that game for more personal reasons aside from just the ones you brought up in your video. Reasons that you haven't exactly made clear i don't think. Just because shops won't host tournaments for Vanguard due to their past experience with trying to sell their products (which is a minor point you brought up in your original video, albeit a fair one) and just because most people buy their cards online doesn't mean the game is a failure. People are clearly buying the cards they want through their own means, there's a lot of people in the community who don't mind the hard "50-card, 4-copy limit", the mobile game is "okay" (i have my own gripes with Zero as opposed to physical Vanguard; its way too campy and defensive of a game, but its fine for getting people into Vanguard in general), the branding through their anime draws in further attention (although the 2018 reboot series is god awful) and you can always still get together with friends to play the physical game whenever you want just like you could with any other physical card game. The only real logistical arguments you brought up points to the conclusion that Vanguard is losing on potential profits due to how the game is designed, but the game is clearly successful enough to have lasted over 5+ years or so and it managed to spawn multiple sister games such as Future Card Buddyfight (RIP, lmao) and Weis Schwarz. It just means that Vanguard won't probably ever reach the heights that Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon and Magic have achieved, which is fine. I've kinda accepted the fact that Vanguard is going to remain a niche TCG due to its design philosophy and due to the issues that said design philosophy presents as far as selling products goes. And tbh, Vanguard (at least the v-series format) is pretty cheap to build decks for for the most part so long as you're just trying to build something that isn't a meta-defining deck and is just decent. I'm going to be building a Dragonic Kaiser Vermillion v-series deck with whatever money i get for my birthday in a week or two, and it'll only cost me about 30 or so bucks to build the deck from scratch off of tcgplayer.com. It'll result in a pretty fun, strong and economically friendly deck for the most part. Shit only gets ridiculously expensive in Vanguard usually when you're trying to get highly optimal (which is to be expected in a card game, naturally the really good cards would be the most expensive). For example, a lot of the Shadow Paladin, Kagero and Link Joker cards are incredibly pricey due to how good those clans are, so if i have the money for it once my birthday rolls around, i may just buy the Link Joker trial deck to play against my Vermillion deck with. It'd be way too costly to try and build both decks from scratch. Obviously in the long-run, I'd be spending more money with this strategy, but you'll be able to at least have a deck that you can use right now in the short-term. But anywho, how would one go about addressing the issues you presented in your earlier video (along with the one i presented)? I think a big way to alleviate the whole "how tf would you know what clan to play if this is your first card game" problem would be to provide decent descriptions for all the clans in future rulebooks that are packaged with each new trial clan. That way, if the one you currently bought isn't really for you, you have an immediate resource to refer to when figuring out what deck to buy next (obviously you could look this sort of stuff up online too, but not every child has that sort of foresight). As for resolving the "loss of potential profits" issue, Bushiroad could probably base the amount of booster packs and shit that they stock in stores by the popularity of the clans that are present in said pack. If you have a pack like Team Q4 or Asteroid which contains support for highly popular clans, Bushiroad should stock a good amount of those packs in stores since most people who play the game probably dabble in those clans and may buy multiple booster packs in a single purchase. However, if you've got packs that provide support for, say, something like Neo Nectar or Tachikaze (which is more of a niche clan tbh) and they don't have much support for more of the mainstream clans, you should probably only sell those packs online for the most part and provide a shorter stock to stores since you know they aren't going to sell in bulk very well. This would maybe present a new problem most likely from your perspective (although, I'd call it basic supply and demand and would consider it a reasonable solution), but it would mitigate losses most likely at physical stores if there's enough of a demand for the booster packs with the more popular clans. I don't think Bushiroad is smart enough to do this though (although I personally like the changes made in the v-series format, so they could still surprise me), but if they did this, it would most certainly help them regain trust with local card shops again. I think the solution i provided would result in a pretty decent business model if v-series is their main plan for the card game going forward and if they're going to commit to it. Besides, you're allowed to add the new v-series cards in your older decks in a format known as "standard premium", so for those who do care about playing the older format, they can get in on the good cards from v-series that'd mesh well with their already-established decks. That's not to mention that tournaments still play standard premium, so they still get some action in the tournament scene. [edit: okay so apparently Bushiroad mainly prioritizes the Japanese market, so overseas figures and shit may be unreliable as far as weighing Vanguard's success is concerned since its a smaller, more niche TCG compared to something like Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh.]
4nt THANK YOU! Glad I’m not the only one who wants to educate this guy on how Vanguard is actually better than he makes it out to be (still flawed, don’t get me wrong). The way he talks, he makes it seem like the only mistake Vanguard hasn’t made when it comes to designing their game is that the card size is the same as Yu-Gi-Oh so they’re easy to sleeve.
@@redshirt8611 I will say though that games like MTG are significantly cheaper as far as market value goes for the most part, but apparently the cost of cards in MTG were a fair amount more expensive a few years ago, so idk. Maybe there was a pop in a market bubble or something and prices dropped recently as of late, i don't know enough about the history of individual card prices in MTG.
I recently tried a demo for a developing card game and most of it felt like they frankensteined Yugioh, Pokémon, Hearthstone. It was just too out of focus!
I've never had the chance to play with another human being myself, but I really like the artwork and thematic elements of the game as well as how it handles resources (SO much more fun than Magic's system). It's a shame you couldn't get into it.
I mean you have to give credit to vanguard in that respect as well it isnt yugioh where they make up bullshit rules and the anime is nothing like the tcg. So when little kids see the show they buy a starter deck go to their shop have no idea what they are doing and get destroyed and never play again because yugioh is VERY not beginner friendly with its 200 word text box effects and such lol. Where as much as you dont like it the vanguard show uses the actual rules it has s erupted as they might he more realistic games compared to irl and it really gives the feel of what a tcg is like. The closest yugioh ever got to that was the few episodes they opened packs in yugioh gx.
Kohdok sequel to card games on motorcycles, Card games while scuba diving. Honestly would have probably made the show more enjoyable (but that isn’t saying much)
Why do you hate Vanguard as a whole so much? It doesn’t even seem like an objective view, and just some very personal biases, so I’m curious. It’s also the most popular TCG in my local, more than the big three even.
Gee Idk Triggers? Unmixable decks unless you MLB or Glendios? And that is not actually using the cards to do what its intended? Unmixable clans causing the clans to be not balanced due to mechanics exclusive to certain clans? Insane prices when compared to other TCGs esp the Japanese ones? Also staples in one clan doesn't translate to another causing the players to drop more money if they wanna play another clan? Power creep that will phase out old support most of the time? And I don't mean new support phases out 3 year old support, I mean when V Mordred dropped V PBD is almost unplayed due to how good Mordred is in most metagames. A game being popular doesn't mean its objectively good. If you truly love a game you should see its faults and think about how it can be improved, esp when the faults are due to logistical issues.
He only elaborates on his personal biases like that thing about the anime. But there're a lot of reasons to dislike vanguard, starting with its powercreep that pretty much phases out the previous sets without questions. I mean, other than Vanquisher, no deck can really stand up to the new Messiah and DotX decks that hasn't been recently released. Besides that, the large time gaps that clans have to wait to get supported are insufferable for non-main character clans, trigger luck has too much of a prescence, going first is way too good, and unmixable clans are all pretty legit reasons to dislike vanguard. Despite that, its still a very fun game to play just casually, all things considered.
I like Vanguard and play it regularly but it’s not a game suitable for high competition due to the trigger system. That means luck is such a presence in every game, whether you like it or not. That can be fun and is (usually), but it’s hard to be the best when you can easily lose to a noob because he got way better luck with triggers. At least the company knows it and doesn’t try for anything in regards to high competition. Just a regional circuit that’s there for community building really.
I've left my thoughts as a standalone comment on this video. Its incredibly verbose and addresses the problems he went into depth on in his video, as well as some other gripes I have. I still love the game, but Bushiroad needs to fix their business model if they want to stay afloat.
@@MrZer093 No card game is really suitable for higher competition. Vanguard might be more 'blatant' about it, but Magic has plenty of problems itself; tons of games are decided by things as simple as land flood or land starve at their basic level. Nothing to really be done about that. Red deck wins is another remarkably simple deck that crops up fairly often... As for Yugioh, well... Any game where you can basically decide the victor of a game with who went first (Which has been many yugioh formats) is kind of a joke. Especially considering the game has no mulligan still. Implying luck is only an overbearing factor in ONLY Vanguard is completely disingenuous.
5 is a very good number, a good balance between varied and focused. But 6 is just as good if you're looking for a more counterbalanced approach, fire vs water, light vs dark, and so on. But in reality, what's most important is tailoring your major attributes to the needs and theme of your game. One example is how they do it in Runeterra where attribute is actually the area the cards are from, or Hearthstone where it's built on class tropes. In the new Digimon game, they decided to use colors for attributes too, 6 in total so far, 2 of which have not come out yet, and these largely coincide with the general evolution groupings that you see from the games and anime, which is an interesting restriction for a card game built around evolving your Digimon.
But it’s always just very intuitive to have red be very agro, and have blue focus on control (it’s rare for this to not be the case just because basic color theory)
re: Lightseekers - I haven't kept up either but I've gotta figure they got pretty hamstrung by losing their primary brick-and-mortar presence in Toys-R-Us.
So I would just like to say it's unfair to classify Force of Will as "Magic but worse". I the core gameplay is better than magic in fact even if it's very similar as it refines certain aspects. The art to me is a lot more appealing and the rulers make for an interesting core mechanic. Sure magic has commanders but that's a thing for only certain formats and I don't think commander cards are as interesting as the ruler cards in FoW. In my opinion the reason the game failed(although technically it's still going.) is due to poor business decisions by the company that makes it as well as some balance issues that weren't quickly addressed. The game fairly recently actually almost had a big comeback and the company had really figured out how to please the players. Then there was a hostile takeover and change in management that upended everything and the new people in charge seem to have no idea what they're doing.
I told another guy this, so i guess i'll say it here as well. Just because a game is "better" doesn't mean it actually is. Magic has more deck building opportunities. The reason i really don't like force of will is because the ruler system forces me into particular strategies and archetypes, and if i want to add colors to the deck i also need to change the ruler, which means more money spent. In mtg commander i can just swap out for a less synergistic commander, or i can literally use a commander with one extra/less color and not comprimise my decks strategies. My roommate who played competitively tried real hard to get me into force. But it felt too much like magic, that and i'm not interested in investing in yet another card game with "better mechanics" but suboptimal deckbuilding.
@@four-en-tee there should be some if you search it but the gist is that: you cant mix clans (understandable). Less tournament and cardshop turnouts(which is likely due to him only looking at it from the states and not from a foreign outlook). And the anime (which is the most unreasonable of his reasonings) And the fact that he had a fit at a younger kid for apparently quoting an anime scene.
I agree with your problem with vanguards marketing but remember bushiroad, the company that makes vanguard, isn't just a tcg company they do everything. Vanguard, unfortunately, is just one small part of it.
Thats the problem, its like commander. But not forgiving in the deck building department. Force of will admittedly does fix mana screw by having a whole seperate resource pile to draw from using your ruler.. But hinging play on that ruler means that you can't just add other attribute without changing the entire deck and still needing to replace the ruler. My roomate tried REAL damn hard to get me into force of will, but kohdok's point of feeling too much like magic (which magic is my favorite card game, i've invested so much into it) was on point. Why would i want to dump even MORE money into force, when i can just go play mtg commander and actually get games? Or even better yet, i can build my commander deck however i wished without comprimising literally everything? Just remember, a game that says or feels like it's "better than X" isn't until it actually is. And with force having barely a playerbase in comparison to magic, magic having broad tournament support, multiple formats, and magic's entire foundation (however flawed) still allows you to build decks how you want and play them however you wish (with caveats) all in spite of mana screw.
I made a game once. It was basically a rip off of Yu-Gi-Oh, I’d make the cards and play with the kids at my school. Had to stop cause Konami came at me with Copy Right Laws. Personally I think it was a little extreme for a 2nd grader; but whatever.
Honestly, that episode of vanguard was one of the ones that I enjoyed more. Not because of the "I bought a pack this morning and happened to get this plot armor card", but more for showing that tcg are about trying to improve your deck and strategy and how the outcome of games are heavily influenced by how you prepare before you even get to the event.
You mean TCGs aren't about the power of friendship and ancestral bloodlines? Maybe at YOUR locals.
I'm just now getting around to the series (I know nothing about the actual game outside of the anime) and I'd heavily agree. It's a massive positive that they actually address HOW the deck gets better, instead of Yugioh's "ah, but I pulled this card out of my ass"). Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike any of the franchises in Yugioh that use the blatant asspulls (looking at you, DM, GX, and Zexal), but actually getting a REASON why the card was there made it better.
Now... about the 5 year old who's obsessively creepy to the 7 year old who's obsessively creepy to the main protagonist's younger sister, but is better at the card game than people who went to the National tournament, which the show makes a big deal about...
"You know what you do once per turn: draw a card from the top of your deck"
RUSH DUEL!!!!
😂
As a response to that episode of Vanguard you mentioned, I actually really like when card game anime/manga lean into it's more realistic side. As a Yugioh player, I am used to seeing the anime constantly give characters supernatural plot armor through them just creating cards out of thin air. However whenever the show gets more "real" and puts a focus on the fact that it's still just a card game, it gets really fascinating sometimes. Like the best example in my eyes is the the final duel of the Grand Championship filler arc. There is no supernatural elements, no fighting to save the world, just someone with a petty grudge trying to cheat at a card game. Zigfried; the main villain of the arc; gave his younger brother Leon a powerful spell card and told him to use it in the finals. After playing it, it's revealed the card was an unreleased proto-type that was not at all balanced for the actual game and that Zigfried had hacked into the game's servers to make the illegal card legal. He also manually modified the card's data files so it no longer did what it said on the card and instead gave his brother a ludicrously unfair advantage. In the end though, Yugi ending up beating the unfair card because Zigfried got overzealous with the card's maintenance cost. The card is supposed to force the user to mill half their deck and he changed it to make the opponent mill half their deck instead. Once Yugi's deck was almost gone, he was no longer able to pay the cost since you can't "Send half of one card to the graveyard" so it destroyed itself.
I enjoy the Chaotic show for a similar idea. Yeah they tend to battle as the creatures rather than just play the card game. But, you see them trade for rare cards, lose plenty of battles, have to figure out how to counter certain strategies using an odd card pool, and the Chaotic Dromes are just like a giant locals with mainly cool people but a few jerks as well.
Don’t forget the ludicrously specific effects
Zexul in particular had tonnes of really niche cards because they had a rule that only a number could destroy another number (but not like as an actual rule it was apparently printed on the cards as an effect so it could be negated)
You’ll see it most common with them adding cards that say things like if you opponent takes battle this turn but the monster was not destroy do this specific effect
As a vanguard player i actually love that you dont like it and are vocal about its flaws. whether its the release schedule or how ridiculous the show is and how vanguard kinda keeps growing despite itsself and how it breaks and flirts with multiple sins of card game design. most people who make content for tcgs and vanguard especially arent willing to talk bad about it and give it respectable criticism. Also some of vanguards flaws are part of what makes it fun and entertaining for the people who do play, have found or founded successful communities to where shops are willing to bring product in and supply the players with a place to play casually and with proper tournaments. Bushiroad in general has alot of issues with its card game designs, marketing, and distribution for all of its games and im glad to find someone who actually sees that and calls them out
Very much same. I’ve been playing it for years and it’s refreshing to see someone address actual issues the game has beyond “it’s for weebs”. Every game has flaws and you can like a game both in spite and because of flaws. I appreciate this criticism he has been sharing.
A good example of this is the “I used money and bought a pack!” critique he had. It was fair but it was also a rather refreshing moment to have a card game protagonist get better the same way people do IRL. While it did eventually become “save the world with a children’s card game” that pretty much every card game show is, it still has realistic moments like that that keep it grounded even in the recent seasons.
@@MrZer093 I think its the fact that it gradually turned into a "save the world" story rather than focusing on one from the get-go was a smart move. It allowed us to better appreciate the world and its people before throwing us into the midst of an end of the world scenario. I actually had a reason to care about it and its people.
I absolutely love the quote "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and the worst form of competition". That'll be in my brain rent free forever!
Gotta say bro that this series is the best thing you've done! I'm always hyped when I receive the notification that you've posted. :)
It is true the ceo came to teach dragoborne I was there with him and literally 2 other people (idk who the other two people were). The CEO, his son and the head designer were there. We didn’t even get much space to learn lol.
But yeah in our state there’s almost no vanguard I know of only one shop and it’s an hour away and then next closest one is an hour away in another state. And to get the one shop in our state to stock vanguard we (me and 2 other friends) had to set up and run tournies without prize support for a bit to prove we had a player base, wasn’t easy.
Kohdok is allowed to not like something and he’s allowed to have an opinion and view point which he has backed up. So just give him a break. He makes amazing videos and tries so hard. Just cut the man a break.
"pokemon doesn't have interrupts"
ACKCHUALLY...! it did have interrupts once, back in the DPPt era. there's only one i remember: "Team Galactic's Invention G-103 Power Spray"
It is taking people time to get your videos recommended by UA-cam, but i think you have found your best format: Tlk about game design and giving love across many games rather than just one niche game, so that fans across games can enjoy it.
Please keep making this kind of material and I look forward to what you come up with once the 7 sins are finished.
Just letting you know buddyfight just discontinued
I have to hard disagree on that issue with that one episode of Vanguard regarding the Gordin card. I am so used to card game animes just being about the power of friendship that it's actually VERY refreshing for me when they treat the game they're playing AS a card game. You buy booster packs in stores and keep opening them and you'll find a card in the new set that really supports your deck! I actually WANT card game anime to not be so afraid of being a bit more realistic: Worry about deck balance, creature types, synergy, etc. As much as I love the Yugioh anime, that's one major problem I always had: Yugi's deck should never have won anything. That deck is atrocious, has no consistency, minimal synergy, no real strategy, only one copy of every card he had.... It drove me crazy that he only kept winning because he had plot armor. Well...that and his opponents were often running decks almost as bad, if not worse.
That vanguard example only ever happened like... twice. In the first chunk of season 1. I really dont think it's as big an aspect as you seem to think.
God, i'm kinda obsessed with this double identity Bushiroad has as souless card game company and creator of some of the greatest fictional bands of all time.
Duel Masters is the best card game, especially for beginners. Easy life point system using shield systems, blocking mechanic, only one ATK stat per card, and most importantly you can utilize your useless hand cards as a mana source
I was so hyped for Bakugan, but it was all ruined when 5 months passed without any new of a new set coming to Canada. And now it’s been more than a year and a half, still no sign of set 2, and we have to deal with multi language cards
You mention when a game addresses a grievance. I'm new to the channel, and am really just sinking my teeth in with these Sins videos, but have you looked at Keyforge? It's designed by the man who originally designed Magic the Gathering as a response to his distaste for the secondary market and to embrace the newbie feel of playing with what you get. What are your thoughts on that game?
It seems to keep trucking along but I got tired of chasing halfway good decks that fit my style. It actually gets more expensive when you chase decks that are opened. Love the gameplay not the sales model
I've been building a card game on and off for a few months now that was originally built to be playable within Minecraft, but I've since realized that it could just as easily be played as an actual physical game. I basically took my favorite parts from existing card games and cobbled them together to make something kinda new. It's based on resources similar to how Hearthstone's work, where you get one per turn no matter what, so you don't need to worry about resource droughts or floods... But recently I thought it might be cool to add optional resource cards for the different types of cards in the game that would be used to, for example, pay the cost of a Creature's ability. Like, say you pay 2 resources to deal 1 damage, or you could pay just one "colored" resource to get the same effect. Still workshopping that. I like the deck-building puzzle of figuring out how many lands or energy cards to put in my Magic/Pokemon decks, but I don't like it when I get too many/little resource cards... I also wanted to make it so that you could basically open just enough packs so that you had enough for a deck, put all those random cards together, and have it work cohesively. As opposed to ending up with too many colors, two or three cards of an archetype that you're meant to build an entire deck with and which are useless on their own, or other things like that. Heck, you could sell a "random starter deck" box that just contains three packs, a life counter die, and some resource tokens in it, and whatever cards are in those packs, you could use as a deck. It just may or may not be a super great one.
I'd love to discuss and workshop my ideas for the game with people who are card game enthusiasts since it's been a little tough for me to develop it on my own! Some other ideas I used are limited card zones and really small deck sizes, like in Yu-Gi-Oh Duel Links (Or "speed duels", if you prefer) specifically. I also have "power" cards that act like the Skills in Duel Links, or like the Hero Powers in Hearthstone, where they are always present and not technically on the board, either just to always give you something you can do even without any cards, or just as a passive effect that you can build your deck around. For example, you might choose a power that lets you pay 2 resources once per turn to deal some damage or gain back some life, or maybe you have a combo deck, so you choose to use the Power that gives you an extra card in your opening hand (But at the opportunity cost of not having a constant effect you can use every turn). It's pretty much like Yu-Gi-Oh in that, while there are certain attributes that cards have, and those attributes can be interacted with, they can be seamlessly meshed together into a deck, no problem. But if you wanted to, you could choose to build a deck with only one "tribe" in it that specifically makes use of buffs and abilities targeting that "tribe".
Anyway, time for me to shut up. Is there maybe a Discord server for this channel? Might be a better place to get thoughts on my game. xD
This series is actually making me feel more confident about the game I’m coming up with.
Any updates on it?
Great video! Liked the flow of briefly touching on each card game.
This information is so valuable and has made me rethink so much in the game I'm creating! Thank you!
I miss Duel Masters so much... I’m gonna be honest, I do play Vanguard now, but a lot of it does feel like it’s trying to be a Duel-Masters-but-slightly-different
Watching this video helped me with my own card game, thanks.
Again, I love this series - thanks Kohdok! I know others have said this, but something like this in podcast form would be amazing
Dragon Ball Super is basically just Duel Masters mixed with Cardfight Vanguard. DBS has the guarding from hand and the leaders essentially have limit break.
Cardfight Vanguard actually has just added spells (orders) to the game, and they are once per turn.
Keyforge isn't quite a TCG, but the rules are surprisingly fresh. At the start of your turn, you have to choose between 1 of your 3 houses, and then you can only play or use cards from those houses, unless you use card effects to play outside of house. You win by collecting aember and forging keys, and to do that your creatures can reap for aember. So you have to make a lot of hard choices each game. Do you choose the house with more cards to play or one with more cards that can be used? Do you want to reap and race for aember, use your creatures to fight, or use card effects to take away your opponent's aember?
I hope some games in the future take inspiration from some of these mechanics. Also, another unique deck card game could be interesting; maybe a Japanese one to appeal to a different niche.
Here's a very niche (time frame wise) interrupt that DID exist in Pokemon. During the SP era, aka Diamond and Pearl, there was these cards that allowed you to play higher level Pokemon for less of a cost than traditional evolution. If you had more than 4 of these cards in play. During your opponent's turn, you had an effect veiler. It's a 1 off (mechanic wise) that's never come up prior or since. And people that still routinely play that format actually talk about how much they despise the card. Since it slows down the pace of an already somewhat slow format, as compared to the modern day.
I think part of the problem might that *because* the "big three" are so different, as you put it, it's hard to make something that *isn't* imitating one or the other.
Yu-Gi-Oh has no resources, MtG has global and static resources, and Pokemon has card-specific resources. MtG and YGO have the players themselves as the target, while Pokemon makes the summons the target.
So how do you make a "monster fighting" game (which is likely the easiest game type to make) that *doesn't* follow any of those paradigms (especially if you include the 'styles' of a few lesser games like Duel Master)?
Three ways to do this:
1. Implement a completely different type of system: the original Dragon Ball Z TCG was designed to mimic the drawn out, epic clashes seen in the anime. Instead of having characters "fight" in one-off battles, you'd have combat cards you'd play from your hand. Combat was an "our turn" system where both players went back and forth playing out their combat cards until their hands were empty, and then resolve the damage done afterwards.
2. Differentiate yourself with other mechanics: Bakugan is a good example of this with the whole rollable figure thing.
3. Utilize variations on a theme: Neopets TCG was focused on "contests" between Neopets, similar to how the Pokemon TCG was built around battles between Pokemon, but it had four different stats for four different types of contests rather than a single set of stats for conventional battles.
4:40 Ohhh nonononono!!!! Clearly the developers just went "Yea, Mana sucks, lets use Life", they don't know the atrocity of "Channel" ->(Pay All life but 1)-> "Fireball" (You Are Dead). The only Life that matters in a card game is the very last one.
there seems to be 2 amounts of LP that matter.
enough to stay in the game
and
so much that the opponent just can't kill you.
granted the latter is hard to get working in most games.
Just found your channel. Man your content is great. Perfect and totally unfounded niche.
Now having seen this, I understand your argument for vanguard, as a player i only play three clans and I try to not buy anything new unless it's support for one of those three clans. But i will say location isnt an issue for me, as I live an hour away from three game stores and all three support vanguard in some way, wether it be with product or by having locals. So I have never had the same issues so to speak with stores and this game as many others seem to have
Honestly talking about how different the big 3 are, I cannot think of 3 more different games, going from ‘resource for everything’ to ‘resource to push closer to the win condition but not for game state’ to ‘what’s a resource’. From ‘colours shape your deck’ to ‘colours and staples’ to ‘this combo of synchrons, crystrons, mecha phantom beasts, deskbots, heralds and borrel/rokkets is pretty splashable Huh’. It’s From ‘a coherent style being used to explore waves of similar themes at a time’ to ‘adhering strictly time internal designs made first and foremost for a video games to make everything feel tied together’ to ‘explore as many themes as possible connected by a loosely coherent clean/anime art style’
Yugioh and magic look on paper like they’d be smaller niche styles compared to the main competition being on magic style going by the number of games the imitate it but what it ends up as is all 3 take up a major niche and seriously owns their niches, no game can boast being able to play as explosively as yugioh and they will never survive trying to. I think for all it’s flaws this is how vanguard managed to keep it’s head above water for every sin it’s broken. It’s still different enough to have cut out it’s own niche instead of fighting the niche’s the others already occupy
Something I have not heard or seen yu mention was VS, the Super Hero cards game. It lasted several years, was well made,and ddressed many of the issues with MtG and other card games.
For those who don't know, you drew two cards each turn, but had a starting and maximum hand size of only 5. You could play any card face down as a resource, so never had "mana screw" or "mana food" in your deck. There were cards which were ideal as your face down resources, as you could flip them face up for a one time and/or ongoing effect. However, if you were "screwed", you could still play a hero or anything else face down as a resource in a pinch to stay in the game and not fall behind in tempo.
I never played competitively, but I saw that it was an amazing game. No idea why it died, but it had a huge following where I lived and played. We had 30+ player tournaments and a huge economy with tons of binders and product and official support.
Absolutely, however the more games that come out, the more difficult it is to be unique. And it's hard to add interesting, balanced and long-lasting new mechanics to really anything.
Pokemon has had a SINGLE interupt card. Team Galatic's Invention Power Spray.
No cards you can play on your opponents turn in Pokémon... anymore.
Again nice video. And this video gets in my favorites for the fixed microphone xD.
Flesh and Blood is shaping up to be the fourth big card game.
Claims to keep his personal opinion of Vanguard out of his videos only to groan in disgust every video when he feels the need to bring it up.
You also forgot UFS, which is somehow still alive and releasing product even though it has a player base that’s probably around 100, but borrows barely anything if all from the big 3 and has been copied into other TCG’s like the MegaMan NT Warrior TCG.
UFS?
@@AztecCroc universal fighting system, I think
@@MyOffDay yes that's ufs but it change name for universe at the start of the year
It name changed to Universus. It's also the *only* TCG with any kind of player base in my area outside of Magic and YGO.
Even now we have weekly tournaments. I love just how different it is from everything, and all the different properties. I'm still waiting for the My Hero Academia release. I think they're really banking on it to blow the game up.
I'm honestly really surprised how long UFS/Universus has lasted. over 10 years and 3 publishers and still going. I think it's clear the game's special, just competing in a crowded market.
Sodality you say, 🤔
I might just get into that.
Love this series you've got going. It's pretty neat hearing you compare all these different card games and why a lot of them failed/succeeded. I wonder if you've ever thought of doing a video for Dinosaur King?
The Spoils is a game im sad i didnt play until recently after it had already died. It reminds me alot of magic, but also is very interesting and fun to play.
I'm currently making my second card game (through the game crafter) and the first one I published called Bridge To Ravenhelm, felt too similar to MTG. So I have now stopped making that game and am now making a new game called The Ninth Sea that has all original mechanics that I've never seen in any other card game
i think what makes the big three so different is simply **how** you play cards. in mtg you use lands, in pokemon you place them but cant use them without the right amount of energy and Yu-gi-oh to my knowledge you just place them and they sometimes have a sacrificial aspect. None of them play cards the same so even though they have similarities, that simple aspect makes it feel so different. on the side of animating and school ive tried developing some ide for a future card game and the ONE aspect i have never changed is it's unique summoning system.
Ok, on the whole "take ten minutes to play one turn and go through your whole deck" thing... for MTG you mainly see that with big mana ramp decks, it's not universal. And with Pokemon it was mainly something that could happen back in the old days, with Rain Dance decks. Once the supporter rule was put in place limiting engine trainers to an absolute once per turn, that kinda put a stop to things.
Mtg used to use a system for life tracking involving to different size beads with one for sets of 5 life and the other for ones. I actually tried it because dollar tree sells similar beads.
The MST3K rule (don’t remind your audience of a better movie in your bad movie) also applies to card games I guess
really and truly that applies to any product you make. From entertainment to food, don't imitate, innovate. If your product is similar to an opponents, it needs something that will make people have a preference.
"Pokemon doesn't have interrupt effects"
Kinda? As a general rule, no, but occasionally one does show up. Team Galactic’s Invention G-103 Power Spray was a card you could play on your opponent's turn when the opponent used a Pokepower and you had two or more Pokemon-SP in play. It stopped that Pokepower from working. The Sinnoh era in general was when TPC started really experimenting with different mechanics.
If you're doing another Redakai-specific video, I'll get you up to speed with the mechanics from the set that wasn't released in English. I've got links for artwork etc for unreleased cards if you want any of that for it too.
There's still no deck searching.
They provided a weak erratum for Drudger. He now doesn't heal any damage when put into play. (Not that this remotely addresses the issue with his effect but they did it anyway...)
New keyword is FURY which is active while your hand contains two or less cards. There are REACT cards which only work while you have FURY as well.
Monsters have been printed with REACT abilities that can be used while in play (rather than while in hand) to boost Defence values.
New mechanic is Combo Attack where if you have both of the cards in hand, you can play them both for the cost written on the main card which has a transparent zone for the number from the accompanying card's leftmost digit to be added to the power.
New Character cards (yay) but their abilities are mostly mediocre. The new Maya gives an attack +500 when you play a monster on her, Boomer makes your opponent recharge 2 less Kairu when you play a Monster on him, Ky lets you recharge Kairu equal to the cost of a Metanoid played on him. Teeny is a Koz, but for Monsters. Zane is a Doombringer when you play Bruticon on him.
There's a new engine Monster called Dragus and all of his versions accelerate your game-state. The Gold Dragus lets you draw an extra card every time you draw, The Blue Dragus lets you gain 1 extra Kairu every time you gain 1 Kairu and the Komodo Terror Dragus lets you play a Monster for free if you play one Monster.
The metagame would have been a case of Attacking engines like Metanoid - Solar Plasma + Psychic Rage vs Defending engines like the now more consistent Frudge-Slap combo. The tier below that is Chemaster spam where you play loads of Chemasters in one turn because the regular ones are free to play because of the Gold one.
Was the game design perfect? No. However, I feel like the game died before they were able to get creative with it in the US.
It doesn't solve the biggest issue the game has at all, though. More on that in video 4.
@@Kohdok Looking forward to it :D
@@Kohdok Newly discovered Redakai card 'Plasma Hammer' was designed to stop Frudge Slap. It's a Combo Attack which when played, deals all 3 bars of damage and cannot be stopped. Costs 8 Kairu and the companion Attack is Absolute Frost.
The thing about imitation and competition can apply to all kinds of media, not just card games. I have been magic a Magic the Gathering reskin for a while. Now I am finishing that up. Then I want to go into something more creative. Reskinning is good for learning about a game. However it does not make a good product. I didn't know there was a grievence in the resource system of Magic the Gathering. Pokemon has something similar to that. I was thinking about doing a whole different way to doing resources. It oesn't involve using resource colors of diffrent colors or elements. Maybe this is a good way to go. I like the Hearthstone resource system. Players automaticly get a mana crystal at the start of thier turn. Then they use thier mana crystals to fuel thier spells. My pet peeve is randomness. I hate ranomness in games with a passion. So I thought of ways to avoid it. Every move and effect has perfect accuracy. A player can choose the card they want before they draw. There are no randomized booster packs. Each card product has the same cards in all of its copies. I ought to watch videos of the top worst things in the Mgic the Gathering and Pookemon card games. Maybe I can get some ideas. I am not experienced with Yu-Gi-Oh. So I wouldn't understand the issues very well.
Hi! Just found your channel and very much enjoy your content! Thanks for that and keep up the good work!
Did you ever checked out "KeyForge"? Also made by Richard Garfield, pretty cool game/concept. Would love to see a Video about it.
I like this channel but it hurts BC my favorite TCG is Vanguard
9:42.and 10:00
vangarbage did start introducing spells(called orders) and tokens after the reboot
You are brainlet lol
To be fair, YuGiOh!/Duel Monsters is very similar to Magic than Pokemon...
Both have Life Points
The Creatures/Monsters in both franchises have Strength and Toughness/Attack and Defense Points
All Permanents have Summoning Sickness, but only the Creatures/Monsters are affected by it
Some Creatures/Monsters have abilities that can be activated/triggered when they're summoned/enter the battlefield or when certain requirements are reached
You can place cards face down on the battlefield that can flipped anytime (For Magic we have Morph, Mega Morph, and Manifest all of which can only be flipped if they're permanents/The card says it can be flipped face up. YuGiOh!/Duel Monsters can place only Magic and Trap Cards face down and, I believe, Monsters as well as long as there being placed in Def. Mode)
YuGiOh!/Duel Monsters "Magic" and "Trap" Cards are basically MtG's "Sorcery" and "Instant" Cards (And Both franchises have a few "Magic"/"Sorcery" cards that can be played during an opponents turn)
Both have ways to grab cards from the Graveyard/Discard Pile and the Library (Magic's term for the Deck)/Deck
I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
Sorry if I’m missing something but these just sound like basic card game mechanics.
Sorry if my comment came off as rude I just see this things as basic card game staples like how video games have staples. It kinda feels like calling Mario similar to Zelda.
@@acehero498 You could say that, but that's sort of a limited scope I feel. Magic in general has defined TCG because it was the first, but you CAN make a TCG that doesn't use a graveyard the same way or doesn't summon monsters/creatures the same way. If you look at the time they were created, I agree with you, these mechanics defined these games at the time, but card games, in general, are much broader now, and there's amazing room for possibility and new varied ideas.
@@brandonj8372 That's true, that and the fact you could target a monster for an attack and needed to go through that monster to attack directly, really made Yugioh such a different beast
@@acehero498 your comment didn't seem rude to me. Anyway, that's my point. Mtg made the basic mechanics and YuGiOh/Duel Monsters followed in Magics footsteps (from the start, at least).
Pokemon, however did it's own thing from the start.
In Pokemon, the players don't have life points
Players have no maximum hand size
Pokemon doesn't have a 2nd main phase. It goes: upkeep, draw step, main phase, combat phase, and end
players can't play anything or use abilities during an opponent's turn.
Players can have up to 6 creatures on the field, but only 1 of them is out fighting the opponents 1v1 style and can switch with any other Pokemon you control on the field.
You can transform your Pokemon into a stronger Pokemon after it's been on the field for at least 1 turn
You get a reward for kOing the opponents Pokemon.
Getting 6 rewards is one way of winning the game. KOing all the opponents creatures that are currently on the field is another way to win.
It is funny that you mention Vanguard, because that is kind of the "unofficial" game of my local hobby store. Friday is Magic, Saturday is YuGiOh tournaments, then every Sunday is (was, due to Covid) official Vanguard tournaments. They have a quarter of their card section devoted to the game, and dozens upon dozens of regulars play the game, and have been playing for YEARS. A couple of years ago I almost got talked into joining, but became dissuaded when I could find NO support or sales for the game at all online.
Honestly, I miss Kaijudo. I preferred it over Magic honestly. I felt like the cards that were there let me be a lot more creative than what I had seen from magic at the time. Now I play Commander and see that magic honestly lets me have fun doing dumb and ridiculous things with the right play group.
Despite the love I have for magic now, if Kaijudo or duel masters came back I'd pick them up again alongside magic assuming I have people to play with.
I hope the digimon game works out over here. Played the tutorial app and enjoyed it. Not sure if this is just me, but it did remind me of kaijudo in some areas.
Can you talk about the acceleracer collectable card game? It had a unique way of winning the game and has a different kind of resources to play cards. I feel like it would do well and mettel might have a gold mine if they put focus on it.
Yes please🏎️
Bro I just read the rule book for this and I agree. This game with a visual overhaul and a few tweaks could be a hit.
The impression I get from watching your videos is that releasing a trading card game after Magic's release is the tabletop equivalent of trying to release an MMORPG after World of Warcraft.
A crucial similarity between the Big 3 is that they all use cards
10:07 here in Latinoamérica MyL (mitos y leyendas) was a big thing and it used the deck as life points, sadly i think it's barely alive and only in Chile now
I started working on a card game back in 2003 but it never went anywhere.... It would have been before the dudes in alaska created the Elder Dragon Highlander formatand my game I was amking was very similar to EDH The thing I found is some of the mechanics I was trying to make would have been hard to do in paper and would be more suitible for a digital format. I may or may not return to the design at some time, or i may or may not just capitalize the story and the world and use it for something else.
I'm sorry, you dislike the vanguard anime for being one of the only halfway accurate representations of actually playing a TCG?
Preach Brother !!
Have you considered reviewing/giving a history of dice masters (which is a weird one that I do think still exists but doesn't have a deck) or the recently discontinued Star Wars Destiny.
Its been awhile since I played a tcg but I remember vanguard basically killing yugioh in my area; when it came out. Also nobody plays pokemon in my area magic is well magic
before i knew it's origin, i got really into duel masters and i would tell people it's mtg for dummies. but i legit loved duel masters and remain ambivalent towards mtg to this day (probably because i'm not a hardcore tcg player, just casual)
I would like in your series that you would look more in the card games Score Entertainment made (Dragon Ball Z TCG, Buffy the Vampire Slayer). They were all long lasting (no 2 years curse), cool game concepts, good design.
I'm trying to design a CCG and my biggest roadblock at the moment is the turn cycle
Like
I have no idea how to make the board special, how to do anything other than "upkeep, draw, M1, combat, M2, end", or how to make combat interesting/different yet not nuanced
Legends of Runeterra (League of Legends based online card game) does a pretty fun one. At the start of each player's turn, all the mana for both players is refilled (mana system similar to hearthstone). Then, the "active player" gets an attack token (allowing them to initiate combat), draws a card, and chooses an action (play a spell, make an attack, or pass). The opponent can choose to interrupt, then the active player can counter that, etc. Once the action is done, then the opponent can choose an action. This continues until both players pass their actions, then the turn ends and the opponent becomes the active player.
If your combat or board doesn't have to be unique just SOMETHING gameplay related. You cannot ride on lore or visuals alone.
I want to bring back the Wow TCG and VS System Feel.... those games are not around anymore, but I kinda love some of the Ideas they had. Are they too MTG like?
You guys have grocery stores selling dice?
i like force of will a lot
Revisiting this video looking back, all the unique games really are kind of just floating around in the HTCG community where no one is looking. I've played literally hundreds of them and had it not been for the fact that half of them are broke college students who can't fund their passion, they can't even get noticed or begin producing anything with quality. Sad reality but 'tis life. I myself have been finding much joy in grid based tactical RPTCGs like Genesis, HeroFusion and Taboo Contract. All of them are extremely intricate and different from one another too, and they all lack the generic resource system clones we've come to expect of some newer games. Have you dabbled with any of them?
What about Duelo de Huevos from Mexico?
I agree with you about vanguards early branding but seeing as it’s now impossible to find the first series episodes in the west and they have been trying to push the reboot could you judge the reboot branding. I’d really like to see an analytical review on the reboot/ card game reboots in general.
Did you look in their own UA-cam? That should be safe...
Yinyanyeow season one of the vanguard anime was lost due to licensing issues something something dubbing company or English distributor or something. They had the 1st ten episodes of the original up for a limited time but I’m pretty sure those are all privatized now.
@@haosmagnaingram6992 Well...that's a kick to the moonstones.
I hate the reboot, too. I didn't mention the truly big problem I have with the branding, but the reboot doubled-down on my big, BIG problem.
Kohdok why there isn’t any pack openings anymore and while the series is more grounded (which is its strength and appeal) it fixed the previous series’ issue of mostly meaningless/plotless cardfights, there are actual stakes and reasons behind conflicts just unlike other tcg anime they are stakes that actually make sense to have the fate be settled on playing a children’s card game, and they don’t run into as many stupid situations as other similar anime do with bogus stuff like “you can’t get through unless you beat me in a children’s card game” or “my villainous plan only really works if I beat people in a children’s card game but all the characters still decide to play card games with me despite the fact that they have basically nothing to gain from it” also when stakes are super high like end of the world stakes they are usually falling victim to what I often refer to as antistakes stakes where it can actually cause a viewer to lose investment due to the absurdity and complete impossibility of the negative result.
If your problem isn’t a grounded slice of life style sports anime esque approach then please elaborate on just what it is you despise about this series.
I'm kind of shocked that no one tried to fight Yu-gi-oh or ESPECIALLY Pokemon.
And I'm talking about the card game aspect. (Wants to fix that.)
Buddyfight sort of attempted yugioh
Not entirely true. There have been a few pokeclones, like Monsuno.
@@Kohdok Ok. Though How long has that been the last one? If I recall that's about 12Years in the past.
Jeez are you ever gonna let that Vanguard thing go the show have evolve beyond the first series they stop doing that bad thing in the first series seriously your hatred for Vanguard is seriously binding I have so much of my friends love the series
I think his criticisms are fair though, and this is coming from someone who absolutely loves Vanguard.
@@four-en-tee i do agree with most of the criticism he actually pointed out mostly that bushiroad is garbage at marketing as well (vanguard zero is proof of that already) but what i dont agree on is vanguard being so disliked because he threw a fit towards a kid who likely felt like having fun. Or the fact that he got pissy over a quote of all things that might as well have been accidental. That and his argument over the anime sucked
I am incredibly fascinated by your reason for hating Vanguard. Because it is the exact opposit for me. The exact same reason is why I loved Vanguard. Past tense.
I guess it is addressing a grievance with Card Game Anime.
How did Yugi? Shoubu? Dan? Whoever win their tournaments and card games? Because of FRIENDSHIP! and Shounen Protagonism. Which Vanguard is fully guilty of today.
But back when Aichi pulled Gordon. The reason why he won was because he was willing to experiment with a card noone else had considered and he made it work in his deck. Later they address win condition and most of the episodes during the first 2 seasons take place in card shops or at organized events with very grounded stakes. Something I could relate to, that felt like it actually addressed playing a card game instead of brushing over it in favor of cool looking action packed monster battles.
Game Idea: Card game with literal rock-paper-scissors mechanic. Lets say a sci-fi military themed game, where infantry beats tanks, which beats mechs, which beats infantry. Have it built into the rules...
I think the whole "lack of store representation brought on as a result of being unable to meet demands for specific clans due to the rate that cards need to be printed out at" argument from your original video was spot on (as well as there's the issue that if you're getting into Vanguard and you don't have any other real experience with past card games, you may not understand what clans are for you and you may end up buying decks as a result that you may never even play with again after purchasing; trial decks only alleviate the problem a little bit), but I also think you're incredibly biased towards that game for more personal reasons aside from just the ones you brought up in your video. Reasons that you haven't exactly made clear i don't think.
Just because shops won't host tournaments for Vanguard due to their past experience with trying to sell their products (which is a minor point you brought up in your original video, albeit a fair one) and just because most people buy their cards online doesn't mean the game is a failure. People are clearly buying the cards they want through their own means, there's a lot of people in the community who don't mind the hard "50-card, 4-copy limit", the mobile game is "okay" (i have my own gripes with Zero as opposed to physical Vanguard; its way too campy and defensive of a game, but its fine for getting people into Vanguard in general), the branding through their anime draws in further attention (although the 2018 reboot series is god awful) and you can always still get together with friends to play the physical game whenever you want just like you could with any other physical card game.
The only real logistical arguments you brought up points to the conclusion that Vanguard is losing on potential profits due to how the game is designed, but the game is clearly successful enough to have lasted over 5+ years or so and it managed to spawn multiple sister games such as Future Card Buddyfight (RIP, lmao) and Weis Schwarz. It just means that Vanguard won't probably ever reach the heights that Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon and Magic have achieved, which is fine. I've kinda accepted the fact that Vanguard is going to remain a niche TCG due to its design philosophy and due to the issues that said design philosophy presents as far as selling products goes.
And tbh, Vanguard (at least the v-series format) is pretty cheap to build decks for for the most part so long as you're just trying to build something that isn't a meta-defining deck and is just decent. I'm going to be building a Dragonic Kaiser Vermillion v-series deck with whatever money i get for my birthday in a week or two, and it'll only cost me about 30 or so bucks to build the deck from scratch off of tcgplayer.com. It'll result in a pretty fun, strong and economically friendly deck for the most part. Shit only gets ridiculously expensive in Vanguard usually when you're trying to get highly optimal (which is to be expected in a card game, naturally the really good cards would be the most expensive). For example, a lot of the Shadow Paladin, Kagero and Link Joker cards are incredibly pricey due to how good those clans are, so if i have the money for it once my birthday rolls around, i may just buy the Link Joker trial deck to play against my Vermillion deck with. It'd be way too costly to try and build both decks from scratch. Obviously in the long-run, I'd be spending more money with this strategy, but you'll be able to at least have a deck that you can use right now in the short-term.
But anywho, how would one go about addressing the issues you presented in your earlier video (along with the one i presented)?
I think a big way to alleviate the whole "how tf would you know what clan to play if this is your first card game" problem would be to provide decent descriptions for all the clans in future rulebooks that are packaged with each new trial clan. That way, if the one you currently bought isn't really for you, you have an immediate resource to refer to when figuring out what deck to buy next (obviously you could look this sort of stuff up online too, but not every child has that sort of foresight). As for resolving the "loss of potential profits" issue, Bushiroad could probably base the amount of booster packs and shit that they stock in stores by the popularity of the clans that are present in said pack. If you have a pack like Team Q4 or Asteroid which contains support for highly popular clans, Bushiroad should stock a good amount of those packs in stores since most people who play the game probably dabble in those clans and may buy multiple booster packs in a single purchase. However, if you've got packs that provide support for, say, something like Neo Nectar or Tachikaze (which is more of a niche clan tbh) and they don't have much support for more of the mainstream clans, you should probably only sell those packs online for the most part and provide a shorter stock to stores since you know they aren't going to sell in bulk very well.
This would maybe present a new problem most likely from your perspective (although, I'd call it basic supply and demand and would consider it a reasonable solution), but it would mitigate losses most likely at physical stores if there's enough of a demand for the booster packs with the more popular clans. I don't think Bushiroad is smart enough to do this though (although I personally like the changes made in the v-series format, so they could still surprise me), but if they did this, it would most certainly help them regain trust with local card shops again.
I think the solution i provided would result in a pretty decent business model if v-series is their main plan for the card game going forward and if they're going to commit to it. Besides, you're allowed to add the new v-series cards in your older decks in a format known as "standard premium", so for those who do care about playing the older format, they can get in on the good cards from v-series that'd mesh well with their already-established decks. That's not to mention that tournaments still play standard premium, so they still get some action in the tournament scene.
[edit: okay so apparently Bushiroad mainly prioritizes the Japanese market, so overseas figures and shit may be unreliable as far as weighing Vanguard's success is concerned since its a smaller, more niche TCG compared to something like Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh.]
4nt THANK YOU! Glad I’m not the only one who wants to educate this guy on how Vanguard is actually better than he makes it out to be (still flawed, don’t get me wrong). The way he talks, he makes it seem like the only mistake Vanguard hasn’t made when it comes to designing their game is that the card size is the same as Yu-Gi-Oh so they’re easy to sleeve.
@@redshirt8611 I will say though that games like MTG are significantly cheaper as far as market value goes for the most part, but apparently the cost of cards in MTG were a fair amount more expensive a few years ago, so idk. Maybe there was a pop in a market bubble or something and prices dropped recently as of late, i don't know enough about the history of individual card prices in MTG.
As far as counters I've used pocket change
I wonder why WotC hasn't figured out that Duel Masters would be a *KILLER* CG app?
Have you played Legends of Runterra?
LoR rules!
I recently tried a demo for a developing card game and most of it felt like they frankensteined Yugioh, Pokémon, Hearthstone.
It was just too out of focus!
FoW would have been interesting to me, since I really don't like lands, but I couldn't really get into t for several reasons.
oh?
I've never had the chance to play with another human being myself, but I really like the artwork and thematic elements of the game as well as how it handles resources (SO much more fun than Magic's system). It's a shame you couldn't get into it.
Man, I miss Duel Masters.
can you make a review of the international Digimon TCG?
What is your opinion on Argent Saga TCG ?
Wowtcg addressed the resource problem really well. I only play mtg because wowtcg got discontinued and Hearthstone is boring.
Got light sekkers on my switch it fun just wish I cloud play with real people
I mean you have to give credit to vanguard in that respect as well it isnt yugioh where they make up bullshit rules and the anime is nothing like the tcg. So when little kids see the show they buy a starter deck go to their shop have no idea what they are doing and get destroyed and never play again because yugioh is VERY not beginner friendly with its 200 word text box effects and such lol.
Where as much as you dont like it the vanguard show uses the actual rules it has s erupted as they might he more realistic games compared to irl and it really gives the feel of what a tcg is like. The closest yugioh ever got to that was the few episodes they opened packs in yugioh gx.
Are there ANY parts of Redakai that you like? I collect the cards myself.
It's the only TCG you can play while SCUBA diving...That's literally it...
Kohdok sequel to card games on motorcycles, Card games while scuba diving. Honestly would have probably made the show more enjoyable (but that isn’t saying much)
Why do you hate Vanguard as a whole so much?
It doesn’t even seem like an objective view, and just some very personal biases, so I’m curious.
It’s also the most popular TCG in my local, more than the big three even.
Gee Idk
Triggers?
Unmixable decks unless you MLB or Glendios? And that is not actually using the cards to do what its intended?
Unmixable clans causing the clans to be not balanced due to mechanics exclusive to certain clans?
Insane prices when compared to other TCGs esp the Japanese ones? Also staples in one clan doesn't translate to another causing the players to drop more money if they wanna play another clan?
Power creep that will phase out old support most of the time? And I don't mean new support phases out 3 year old support, I mean when V Mordred dropped V PBD is almost unplayed due to how good Mordred is in most metagames.
A game being popular doesn't mean its objectively good. If you truly love a game you should see its faults and think about how it can be improved, esp when the faults are due to logistical issues.
He only elaborates on his personal biases like that thing about the anime. But there're a lot of reasons to dislike vanguard, starting with its powercreep that pretty much phases out the previous sets without questions. I mean, other than Vanquisher, no deck can really stand up to the new Messiah and DotX decks that hasn't been recently released. Besides that, the large time gaps that clans have to wait to get supported are insufferable for non-main character clans, trigger luck has too much of a prescence, going first is way too good, and unmixable clans are all pretty legit reasons to dislike vanguard.
Despite that, its still a very fun game to play just casually, all things considered.
I like Vanguard and play it regularly but it’s not a game suitable for high competition due to the trigger system. That means luck is such a presence in every game, whether you like it or not. That can be fun and is (usually), but it’s hard to be the best when you can easily lose to a noob because he got way better luck with triggers. At least the company knows it and doesn’t try for anything in regards to high competition. Just a regional circuit that’s there for community building really.
I've left my thoughts as a standalone comment on this video. Its incredibly verbose and addresses the problems he went into depth on in his video, as well as some other gripes I have.
I still love the game, but Bushiroad needs to fix their business model if they want to stay afloat.
@@MrZer093 No card game is really suitable for higher competition. Vanguard might be more 'blatant' about it, but Magic has plenty of problems itself; tons of games are decided by things as simple as land flood or land starve at their basic level. Nothing to really be done about that. Red deck wins is another remarkably simple deck that crops up fairly often... As for Yugioh, well... Any game where you can basically decide the victor of a game with who went first (Which has been many yugioh formats) is kind of a joke. Especially considering the game has no mulligan still. Implying luck is only an overbearing factor in ONLY Vanguard is completely disingenuous.
I think 5 colors is the sweet spot if you have multi-attribute cards. There's no excuse for just copying the theme or mechanics of MTGs colors though.
5 is a very good number, a good balance between varied and focused. But 6 is just as good if you're looking for a more counterbalanced approach, fire vs water, light vs dark, and so on. But in reality, what's most important is tailoring your major attributes to the needs and theme of your game. One example is how they do it in Runeterra where attribute is actually the area the cards are from, or Hearthstone where it's built on class tropes. In the new Digimon game, they decided to use colors for attributes too, 6 in total so far, 2 of which have not come out yet, and these largely coincide with the general evolution groupings that you see from the games and anime, which is an interesting restriction for a card game built around evolving your Digimon.
But it’s always just very intuitive to have red be very agro, and have blue focus on control (it’s rare for this to not be the case just because basic color theory)
re: Lightseekers - I haven't kept up either but I've gotta figure they got pretty hamstrung by losing their primary brick-and-mortar presence in Toys-R-Us.
Only half your deck and only 10 minutes, that's short for Yu-Gi-Oh.
So I would just like to say it's unfair to classify Force of Will as "Magic but worse". I the core gameplay is better than magic in fact even if it's very similar as it refines certain aspects. The art to me is a lot more appealing and the rulers make for an interesting core mechanic. Sure magic has commanders but that's a thing for only certain formats and I don't think commander cards are as interesting as the ruler cards in FoW. In my opinion the reason the game failed(although technically it's still going.) is due to poor business decisions by the company that makes it as well as some balance issues that weren't quickly addressed. The game fairly recently actually almost had a big comeback and the company had really figured out how to please the players. Then there was a hostile takeover and change in management that upended everything and the new people in charge seem to have no idea what they're doing.
I told another guy this, so i guess i'll say it here as well. Just because a game is "better" doesn't mean it actually is.
Magic has more deck building opportunities.
The reason i really don't like force of will is because the ruler system forces me into particular strategies and archetypes, and if i want to add colors to the deck i also need to change the ruler, which means more money spent.
In mtg commander i can just swap out for a less synergistic commander, or i can literally use a commander with one extra/less color and not comprimise my decks strategies.
My roommate who played competitively tried real hard to get me into force. But it felt too much like magic, that and i'm not interested in investing in yet another card game with "better mechanics" but suboptimal deckbuilding.
Why you hate vanguard so much?
He said why in the video.
@@jiabryant533 He had an entire video on it. BUT it seems to have been snapped.
@@Yinyanyeow Does anyone have the video archived?
@@four-en-tee there should be some if you search it but the gist is that:
you cant mix clans (understandable).
Less tournament and cardshop turnouts(which is likely due to him only looking at it from the states and not from a foreign outlook).
And the anime (which is the most unreasonable of his reasonings)
And the fact that he had a fit at a younger kid for apparently quoting an anime scene.
I agree with your problem with vanguards marketing but remember bushiroad, the company that makes vanguard, isn't just a tcg company they do everything. Vanguard, unfortunately, is just one small part of it.
can you do a video on the MLP TCG?
But Force of Will fixes mana screw. It's so good. And the Rulers are so interesting. It's basically competitive Commander.
Thats the problem, its like commander. But not forgiving in the deck building department.
Force of will admittedly does fix mana screw by having a whole seperate resource pile to draw from using your ruler..
But hinging play on that ruler means that you can't just add other attribute without changing the entire deck and still needing to replace the ruler.
My roomate tried REAL damn hard to get me into force of will, but kohdok's point of feeling too much like magic (which magic is my favorite card game, i've invested so much into it) was on point.
Why would i want to dump even MORE money into force, when i can just go play mtg commander and actually get games? Or even better yet, i can build my commander deck however i wished without comprimising literally everything?
Just remember, a game that says or feels like it's "better than X" isn't until it actually is.
And with force having barely a playerbase in comparison to magic, magic having broad tournament support, multiple formats, and magic's entire foundation (however flawed) still allows you to build decks how you want and play them however you wish (with caveats) all in spite of mana screw.
@@AGuy-s5v You don't have to change an entire deck because you have a different ruler. There were tons of variants of Reflect/Refrain decks.
@@AGuy-s5v You don't have to change an entire deck because you have a different ruler.
@@downsjmmyjones101 i just looked it up "reflect/refrain" they're banned. So.. my point still stands.
@@AGuy-s5v Only banned in New Frontiers.
Pokemon doesnt have "handtraps"... yet...
I made a game once. It was basically a rip off of Yu-Gi-Oh, I’d make the cards and play with the kids at my school. Had to stop cause Konami came at me with Copy Right Laws. Personally I think it was a little extreme for a 2nd grader; but whatever.