I have owned either Horn loaded speakers , modified line arrays or full line arrays since the beginning in 1961. I worked for a radio Station and professional sound company that also sold retail stereo equipment since 1963 till I retired in 2003. I am also a Syn-aud-con Graduate. I learned a long time go every speaker has a directivity quotient at every point on the audio spectrum. Preferably you should sit where the near field and the far field are equal where the ear is most sensitive, 2000 HZ octave. That way you get the definition and sense of space we all want. It is easy to find. Just play pink noise over your system and where the level stops dropping off as you move away from the speakers is the desired distance. Speakers that have different arrival times from their drivers need that distance to blend together. So with my big old speakers with the line array of tweeters 15ft is a minimum distance for me. With the 8 ft tall line arrays 19 ft is the ideal space but as I use then as critical monitors I sit at 14 ft. Because they are almost perfect line arrays they only drop off about 3.5 db every time I double the distance. Where most of the speakers drop off 6 db every time you double the distance. The reason I prefer line arrays is you get full spectrum of sound, from 16 to 20,000 hz and I basically use an b curve of equalization to have a +/- 2 db response to 10,000 with a little more roll off above that. Line arrays give you a wall of sound. They never sound like small point source box speakers. Be they Corn walls AR-3 or your favorite Elacs or Kefs. Because line arrays only radiate to the rear when the wave lengths become longer the clarity is even better than dipole speakers. And you don't have cancellations from early reflections from the rear like you do with dipole speakers. Line arrays will handle more power with much less distortion, too. Yes they require power, but with less fall off after you are many feet away it becomes less of an issue. So at 10 ft ,most people loose 10 db of dynamic capability where I only loose around 5 db. At 14 ft. Ive only lost about 7 db. So I have picked up about 6.5 db in sensitivity on Cornwalls. My speakers are rated as 88 db 1 meter. So at 14 ft my equivalent efficiency is now about 94 db. Which means I only use about 8 times the power of a Cornwall, where at 1 meter I would use about 25 times the power. But all this conjecture depends on where the Critical distance is where the near field equals the far field. Because once you are past the Dc , critical distance there is no more fall off in sound level just the definition continues to disappear. What does this all mean. Sit as far way from your speakers as you can without loosing definition and buy speakers with great dynamic range and full spectrum capability with low distortions so you don't have to buy big expensive power amps..
I break all the rules - I have a pool table between my speakers and love every minute of it. I want to fill the room and enjoy the music. If I want ultra critical listening, I'll put on some headphones or listen to studio monitors on my PC.
Thanks Steve for today's topic. I bought a used pair of Magnepan 2.7s a year ago and I'm still experimenting with placement. I love what you had to say because I've had the same experience. The further back I move the better my system sounds. I currently have my Maggie's 5ft from the front wall and my listening position is 13ft from them. Last night I moved them 10inches further apart and sound stage completely filled the room. I typically let myself acclimate to a single speaker position change for few weeks before making another but now I have to rush home tonight push my listening chair back a couple more feet and see what happens. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Right now in my 13' 3" by 14' 8" room, with my Elac UniFi Reference speakers 55" from the rear wall, the speakers 6" 1" apart I sit 6" 3" away (with 2 1/2' of pace behind me to the rear wall) and I love the sound.
The best experience I have had with my LRS is one day I pulled them into the center of the room while working elsewhere in the house. Approaching the entryway from the adjacent room the speakers were gone and there was a 3-d stage projected behind the panels across the back wall. Amazing. Dave Matthews live at Red Rocks was the album. Hegel H360 amp.
I have decided to finally start putting some input. I do not know why I picked this as I am only familiar with how good Maggie's can sound. I thought like you it has more to do with moving them towards the middle of the room. I have yet to hear the lrs but I like the 1.7.
I tried moving my Missions LX One speakers 10 feet apart on a different wall of the house and it was like buying a new set of speakers - so much potential was revealed by simply relocating the speakers
I had a nearfield system in a apartment bedroom that consisted of Focal floor standing speakers. Sat three feet away or so and it was amazing. When I moved back in another house and sat at distance it seems dull and lifeless in comparison. The kids in the song School by Supertramp were always outside in my yard :)
My 40 years with Cornwalls taught me…the more air they move, the better they sound. In a bar, a barn, or even better yet: outdoors! NO room at all! Ever try it?? It’s amazing.
Yes , I start with 1/3 rule for spkr n hearing position from front n back wall , then an equilateral triangle , then move em slightly by 1/2 inch steps. Then I put some IsoAcoustic pucks on the spkr spikes ( cheap from AudioBastion, don’t need Gaias ) the improvement was quite amazing. Learnt all that from this channel , including carpets , velvet cover for TV n coffee table , front n back wall treatment - all done very cheap but effective. I’m def a fan of this channel , almost everything I buy Kef , Denafrips is from your reviews. Keep up the good work Steve.
So I have a 'second listening room' with my old speakers (B&W CDM 7SEs). they're about 5-6 feet from the wall, and a little over 5 feet apart. I've found if I sit only slightly in front of them (head about a foot in front or less), dead in the middle, I get this amazing holographic bubble of sound coming at me from the front wall (aka behind the speakers). It's a really interesting experience, and very different from any I had tried in the past.
This is what rainy days are for. Years back I had Martin Logan Aerius speakers - owned them for 12 years - and one day I decided to mess around with their placement. I angled these dipolar speakers outward, rather than inward toward the listening seat. Goofy? Sure, but immense fun too. This positioning caused the phantom center image to recede far behind the plane of the speakers. It made a wall disappear!
Steve! This video is so much more than expected. My main system has Maggie.7s that I normally sit about 10’ in front of, and they’re usually 4’+ from the front wall. I think the word is OMG. But I’m rearranging the room to accommodate guests, and now I’m about 6 feet in front of them. Still awesome, but not nearly so much. What a difference a little distance can make!
Hey I have the .7's and after lot's of experimenting l found in my room that the position ended up being 4' from the wall, 9' apart and 11' feet from my listening position I position the tweeters on the outside and have slight toe in I went with the Mega Risers stands to get the speakers up off the floor more If you want to hear my rig, l did a UA-cam vid called "Magnepan.7's doing their thing" actually two one with Tube amp and one with D class amp
I have a terrible room, 12x12 and a 12 ft ceiling. It’s the only room in the house that I can use for a dedicated space. I have single driver no crossover speakers and the Decware Zen set amp. I am near field, maybe not an exact equilateral triangle but close, about 6’. Amazingly I get really good soundstaging. I think I would stay near field even in a better room.
Thank you for the tip! Two years ago I bought Klipsch Heresy IVs on your advice. To paraphrase, You need to own horn loaded speakers once in your life, approaching 73 at the time, seemed right. I’ve loved the speakers in my casita. Having just enough space to move from 9 ft to almost 12 feet has opened them up even more!! Thank you Alan Petsche Marantz SR6007 Pro-Ject TT w/Ortofon 2M Blue OPPO BDR 105 Klipsch Heresy IV
I have a set of klipsch R-14m bookshelf speakers on my desk with a subwoofer under the desk and when I lean my chair back it gets me about 4.5 - 5ft away with the speakers 4ft apart with a slight toe in. At that point those speakers disappear and its all about the tunes!
Many years back in 1984 (+/- 1'yr) i bought a mint & very little used pair of the largest e/stats i'd ever owned, from my local u.k. hi'fi dealer, the Accustat Model 'X' e/stats & by one sheer chance event, i reckognised their ability to project their sound an unusualy long distance along the line of their tight directional output axis, without any noticable drop-off in volume or sound quality & a barely noticed drop-off in e/stat's typical tight directionality, despite the slight curvature to the in-built placement of their 3 tall, flat & vertically aligned adjacent full-range panels. One summer day, i went into the garden to set-up the reclining chairs & sun umbrella while my then girlfriend & now wife, was still inside listening to the music playing quietly at a background music level. Behind one of the toed-in Accustats is a sliding door section in the floor to near ceiling height of the 12"ft wide Fench windows... (folk here call them, maybe pretentiously) ...that gets fully slid open to leave a 4'ft wide breathing area, for a hot summer's heat. Normally, the puposefully bought extra thick double lined curtains of the same floor to nr' ceiling height & width are fully closed when playing music on any speaker but especially for e/stats so their rear projecting panel's output does't bounce-off that tall & wide all-glass area behind the Accustat X's that stood 4 or 5 foot in front, but on this hot day, the curtains were pulled back to let the air in the open sliding section. The chance event happened when i was unfolding the chairs, i noticed the sound from that speaker in front of the slid open section was projecting it's rear output directly at the next of chairs & sun umbrella & sounded as loud as that speaker did inside the living room. So it became a normal thing when the Accustat's were permanently set up, whenever i or we sat in the garden, i would mono-up the sound output with a 2-into-1 phono plug & feed it to the combined valve poweramp/panel energizer that sat on the Accustat X's rear bottom wooden (not) shelf & 'walk' that one speaker 3'ft nearer the slid-open glass door & fine tune the direction to where we normally sit in the garden. Any speaker will do that BUT only a highly directional e/stat can cast a narrow beam of sound at low vollume & still be clearly heard & without disturbing the neighbours who may be in there gardens.... (I've e never heard M.Logans & don't know if they do much to spread out the sweet spot) ..Because as you walked away sideways from the garden seating area, the sound rapidly dropped in vollume & behind us in that sound beam are thick conifers , a shed & an empty dead-end road. That was the only time in my life that i prefered CDs as the returns to change the music were sliced in half, tho i did play L.P.s sometimes. Mono speaker listening was fine for that garden luxery. Those old e/stat are still working well to this day, after an amp/energiser repair that kept them off-road for ages, but my (now) wife will not tollerate their humungous size ("Are We Not Men?" ...Dee'Ee'Evo) they're not 'big' to me but she calls them "Monsters" i think it's only becsuse they need to stand well out from rear bounderies in the room. But they were great for summer mono sounds in the garden where a normal box speaker pointing out would drive neighbours up the road barmy, even tho we're in the end house.
With working from home a lot more I set up a desktop music system with a DAC retired from my HiFi and some PreSonus active speakers and nearfield listening has been a revelation, it's just been a really engaging way to listen to music, very different from the main system sat a room length from ATC floor standing speakers.
Same experience here. I have Klipsch Forte III speakers with a Decware Zen UFO2 amp in my open concept home. My listening chairs in living room are about 9 feet from speakers love the sound, but I prefer the sound in my kitchen, around 15 feet away. Thought I was alone in this experience.
Hi Steve, First of all, I have to thank you for insight into HiFi listening. I enjoy the channel very much. I use a pair of QUAD 2905. I put each on a board with four castors so that I can play with distance and toe-in anyway I like. I guess this is a cheap but effective upgrade for my system. When I listen with friends, some like near them near (within 4 feet) but I like a bit further away (over ten feet). The sound is more holistic, and relaxed. I use all tube gears.
I had a Carver C-9 sonic holographic generator back in the day. First two setups in different rooms was not too good and forgettable. However, on my third try in yet another room, the setup was magic! The soundstage was beyond the corners of the room! All genres of music sounded good, too! So many years have past now and the C-9 is in a box, but I often wonder if my original amazement was warranted!
OMG - recently upgraded a few bits but still wasn’t sounding the best. I rejigged my room, sat further away, gave them more space and WOW. Best upgrade of all.
💯 % agree with speakers placement. It is the main soul of the system. Once found the best equilateral triangle spot in the room, than you are in audio heaven. Also if done correctly with the sub, it just open up all the way from low to highs…just amazing to listen. So yea, speakers placement can do or break your sound system.
Also listening near field after lots of experimentation with my office audio. Standmount speakers (1.5 metre separation) and my listening position is just under 1.5 metre away. Played about with 'toe-in' until I worked out that in my office space 'less was definitely more'. My office rig is hardly audiophile: Kanto YU4 powered speakers and sub via an iFi Audio Zen DAC but an upgrade is planned. By the way, cool shirt Steve. My collection of vivid floral shirts baffles my friends.
Truer words couldn't be spoken.Thanks again Steve Guttenberg, your expertise is greatly appreciated. Horns abound..walls come crumbling down...St.Gabriel blows his horn.....the walls come tumbling down...
Great video Steve of course I love listening to my OG elac ub5s in my 10x10 room about 4 ft away with a toe in they're on wall brackets so I can't pull them away from the wall too much maybe 12 in at the most but still very happy keep up the good work!!
100% agree. My room is 35' deep. Moving farther away sounds a lot more realistic with my Emerald Physics 3.4s (Open Baffle, 12" woofer with 1" concentric polyester tweeter)
Hi Steve. I'm a getting older audiophile I guess ;-) As a rule, the Big speakers I owned (Tannoy Arden, Scalas.. IMF trans lines, Celestio 66) even Quad 57, did need lots of space to breath and image. Not a good match for nearfeald. As I moved to a small apartment (Québec city) I use smaller speakers (Reference 3AMM) and a 45SE amp and I'm curious to try nearfield with this set up. I look forward to get a smaller pair of Tannoys. A small video on horn types would be welcomed. Not all horns do use ''compression'' drivers, and these sound much better than the regular aluminum tweeter with a horn.. Thanks for the great work.
I'm listening to my ALTEC 604Es (with Markus Klug horns) in far field now. They sound incredible! Midfield, they sound good, but the sound really locks in in far-field mode.
In my case the room pretty much determines where I sit but I do have a small amount of flexibility. I'm always amazed just how much small changes in distance and toe-in can make.
I just acquired a pair of Boston acoustics RS 326, and I use Cambridge Audio axr100 to power them. I use them to watch tv or play some background music. They're in my vaulted living room which is about 15x20. Here's the interesting part, my couch is about 6 feet away from the speakers and tv, they sound okay. One day I was cleaning behind the couch where my shoe stand is and I was blown away by how better these speakers sounded from 12 feet away at the opposite wall! This is craziest experience of mine so far... better highs, and punchy bass that went down to 28 hertz. At my couch it barely hits 40, and highs are rolled off too! These speakers are 45 inch tall.
As sort of a corollary to your idea of changing your listening position I highly recommend experimenting with modifying the acoustics of your listening room by low cost or free experimental modifications, then perhaps later by making larger investments in research and acoustical materials. I’m also a big fan of Klipsch speakers but my enjoyment of them began when I was a high school student in the early 70s in a high school band that had a director who used to spend summers working at the Klipsch plant in Hope Arkansas and knew Paul Klipsch personally. So at a young age I was introduced to Klipschorns in a very large room with minimal reflective surfaces. I was pretty much hooked on Klipsch from that point forward. At one time I owned a house that had a music room of about 500 ft.² with Klipschorns in the corners. With wood floors it started out as a fairly live room but as we began to add furniture and rugs it improved significantly as a listening room. However one of the biggest improvements came when I added some 3 inch thick 2’x4’ Rockwool acoustic panels on each side of the corner horns centered near the mid and treble horns. The sound was transformed by that single low cost addition. Fast forward to more recent times, a much much small room, and 1980 era Heresy speakers in this very small bedroom I had acoustically treated for use as my new voice over studio. After I finished working on it there were very few reflective surfaces. Acoustical panels and foam were added in an attempt to control reflections of wide spectrum sounds, although true control of bass reflections with proper bass traps was out my range of affordability. The near-field sound of those Heresy speakers was amazing! Even at 4’ - 5’ away the speakers disappeared and a wonderful soundstage was apparent (I’m primarily a classical/orchestral music listener). Now fast forward again to the present where in our new house the “listening room”/bedroom is fairly large but with quite a bit of reflective surfaces and hardwood floor with no rug underneath the Heresy speakers - and the sound is a bit disappointing at seven or 8 feet away. Hopefully a combination of your advice - by further experimentation with moving further away or possibly even closer will help me determine the best permanent position. Either way I think adding some acoustically absorbent materials to the room will help overall. My hifi listening space is no longer in my voice over studio but has now been relegated to one end of our bedroom. At this point it’s a work in progress and it may turn out pretty good. I think most people do not realize that room acoustics play a much larger role in the sound they hear than the speakers many times. Your idea of sitting much closer to your speakers to lessen the effect of potentially poor room acoustics is a good recommendation, especially for people who have not considered their room acoustics.
I have some Jamo tower speakers that I have elevated almost 4 ft. ( which puts the tweeter at about 7ft. high) and I sit back 18 ft. (my ceiling is vaulted)...sounds great to me!
Hi Steve, I relayed the same message to Gene at Audioholics about sound improvement or spending a dime on equipment. Not even moving speakers around either. How about we all think about our inner ear health starting with a visit to your doctor's office or a walk in clinic and treat our ears to a thorough professional pressure cleaning that can only be performed there. When I went I was shocked to see the clumps of dirt and wax robbing me of perfect hearing afterwards. The overall feeling cannot be understated and of course my hearing became sharper and clearer just like that. I would not recommend the over the counter syringe and bulb because it does not get out the embedded dirt. Let me know what you think. When I came home and played music again it was like I was hearing it all for the first time...woweeeee.
The big Klipsch speakers have always sounded better to me at a distance. A lot of people call Klipsch "party speakers" which fits my impression of them. Some speakers are better nearfield; horn speakers I think are best at some distance.
So this is timely…as I’ve been trying different spacing and arrangements in my listening room. I’d had everything set and sounding pretty good with my Quad S2’s about 6 ft apart, about 19 inches from front wall, and Rel sub to one side toward a corner. Then I got a new power amp that sounds amazing..but now might need to bring the quads closer together as the stage seems much wider and deeper (hence a bit out of focus but so much more REAL). Hoping I didn’t just upgrade myself out of my room! 🤞🏼
A great video Steve. I have 2 systems in one room . My main Imf speakers used to be by my bay window & my Wharfdale /Leak System was opposite. Now I have the Imfs firing the short length but much further apart & the Wharfdale system firing opposite to that . My sofa is in-between. Sounds different & enjoying results
Steve I just love your presentations your energy especially and your vocabulary and your downright excitement about what you talk of is so enjoyable thank you for being here.😎
I wish i had a bigger room to experiment more with the placement of my L100 Classics. They do rock at low and high volumes. I was expecting deeper bass with a 12” woofer but it is what it is, and is no slouch by any means. Also, i need to listen to Chicago III thru them. Its been awhile.
My listening area is very compromised in terms of size and having a sloping roof. I have around 10 feet between my speakers and I sit 6 feet from them . The speakers are 60cm from the back wall. My set up is a dCS Bartok dac , dCS Rossini clock , Meridian 808v6 CD player , rega rp10 turntable , ch precision a1.5 power amp and stenheim alumine 3 speakers . the near field experience is very satisfying in terms of detail retrieval , sound stage , dynamics and minimal reflective interference .
STEVE…STEVE…STEVE……!!! We do not all live in giant Brooklyn lofts and own massive Klipsch Speakers! 🥹 I have a KILLER system…but my MAX back from my DynAudio Contour 20s is 10 feet! …but sounds so good! 8 feet is my REAL SWEET SPOT! At least I can wear cool shirts like you, though! 👕 😁😂😎 Acoustats!!! I had one of my MAJOR audio moments with a pair of them in the private listening room at HiFi Haven in New Brunswick, N.J.,in the early 80s!!! I will NEVER forget that day!!! It was an epic audiophile learning experience.
I'm just curious...is there a standard definition of "audiophile" or "high-end" equipment? I mean, is it a matter of how many zeros are in the price tag? Type of connections in the back? Content of the materials? Separates vs all-in-one? I perused some websites, and it seems that high end equipment costs between as much as a car and a house. If that's the case I'll just have to dream about having a nice system.
Thanks Steve, great topic. How would you recommend going about an irregular room (L-shaped)? with upholstered furniture one one side and open on the other?
The directivity and freedom of room reflections of large horns not only makes them the logical choice for larger spaces and distant listening positions it also make them a superior nearfild choice if set up to perform as such.
I have 2 rooms side by side that are 24 feetx12 feet. The TV room has an open dining room. It has a NAD M10 and 2+1 speakers. The den has an open kitchen in the back. This set up Parasound P23+ two GR Research XLR Encore and a Node so I have the exact same music in both rooms. I also have Bluesound Pulse in my bedrooms and the Bluesound Vault in my office + SMLS D Amp and book shelves. I enjoy going back and forth at 18 to 20 feet and comparing them.
I have Dali Rubicon 2 speakers. I have them one and a half feet from the wall, six feet apart and seven feet from my listening chair. I find this this best in my smallish room.
I have Larsen 8.2 speakers which work really well in a typical living room setting inasmuch as they are made to go right up tight against the wall and therefor do not impinge upon your living space. I've been sitting about 8' away. The sound is okay. Then we bought a new breakfast bar table which we put right behind my listening position. The chair I sit in there is a high stool. SO now I am higher and about 15' away. Everything from there just sounds glorious to me.
Great topic Steve! I always urge my audiophile clients to experiment with speaker placement. Proper speaker and seating setup contribute just as much to a system's sound as your choice of amplification and speaker. Too often I find beautiful high-end speakers pressed right up against the wall, too far apart, or other common placement mistakes. Parenthetically, most people need to accommodate the sensibilities of their non-audiophile significant others, family members, and even Interior Decorators! This limits the speaker placement and seating options for most of the people that I meet in real life.
This is true. If i want to listen to my hi fi, I have to move half the furniture and the sofa in the living room 😤 ... that's how it goes if you follow the tips on setting up hi fi from other family members ... especially my wife .
My room is only 8 x 10 so I am sitting 5ft away, the speakers are only 16 inches away from the wall and near a door but I like the sound and the sub makes it even better now.
I have been playing with speaker position since I saw this video. I found the are better afoot farther apart (now 8 feet) and sitting from 6 to 8 feet from the speakers. I have Energy Veritas 2.8 speakers and a Theta Digital Dreadnaught amp. The speakers are 50" from the front wall.
Having a small room in my condo which serves as the primary listening room and office I have limited ability to change distances at home at 7 to 9 feet. (Vandersteen C2 I's , Ess Amt 1 B and Ohm Walsh H's.) Despite this I love listening from my living room ambiently at 30 feet from the speakers. I also was surprised at how good my JBL 4310's sound in my friend's living room/piano room not at near field from 15-20 feet away.
I am in much the same situation in my apartment. 11'-3" x 11'-3" room. Its my listening room and office. I found a great deal on Cornwall IVs that I couldn't pass up, talk about a crowded listening room! I should say that my walls are angled as such that the sounds comes out to the living room really well for background music. For me my place is temporary and I doubt I will stay past my lease
I wish you had also talked about the distance between speakers. If you create enough clearance from the corners of the room what is the minimum distance you should strive for between the speakers?
Well that depends on the size of the room. But to answer your question directly 5 feet between the speakers, and the general rule of thumb is to have an equilateral triangle between the speakers and the listener.
You would know about this... Why am I getting so much static build up on some of my vinyl records and not others? The platter mat is literally sticking to the underside of some records after play. I use a velvet record pad to clean records. Seems to happen more with new release 180 G vinyl. :0)
VSOD what happens if we have multiple systems send you photos of them all or just pick the best and send to you. HOW CAN YOU CHOOSE WHAT DO YOU DO if my system has not appeared in Steve’s channel I’m merely a Hi-Fi enthusiast. How does one achieve audiophile status maybe we could see a video on why it takes to make the cut? Topps vids always.
Yeah choosing between a pioneer sx-1980 or PS AUDIO or Nene Valley Audio, McIntosh, Clear Audio, Bozak, KRIX names synonymous in the field of quality setups but what is the magic, back story, perfect pet, hideous rug or origami headphone stand that gets Goot’s Ga Ga?
Interesting gear, good photography, not too much information or backstory. There are always exceptions, but generally that’s what I’m looking for. But please understand I get a lot of pictures, so I miss some great ones.
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac hrmmm ok well if your saying me draped over my Dorrough Meters in my undies turning up the volume knob on my sx-1980 with my toe, then I will Colour in the the white elastic on the waistband to blend in with the rest of my Disintegrating duds. Lol
Regardless of room size, attempts at altering distance between listener and speaker must also consider not getting the speaker too close to the front wall and the listener too close to the back wall. Things can go bad quick. But have at it, well worth the effort when you find improvements.
Steve, do you still using wireworld power cords? I ask because you’re mentioned conditiong in this video, so I’m curious because I also have them, but on the shelf, not in my system…
I agree with nearfield listening 100%. I moved my Wilsons using the rule of 3rds vs their recommendation and the speakers sounded better than I've ever heard them! Scary imaging, amazing bass, and the speakers disappeared even when staring directly at them. I'm sitting 9 ft away and I'm kicking myself for not trying this years ago! I'm using the slightest toe-in and it's like I have a new pair of speakers! It took some getting used to...having the speakers so close after 30 years of far-field listening but it's now my new reality! I discovered that many of my albums which I thought were mediocre, actually sound pretty good, and that's what it's all about!
The Maggie LRS at a distance ideal... any such panel type speaker, the physics of it's radiation lends itself to rendering a superior performance at a given long distance... vis-à-vis a typical point source multi-way. Plus, out of the nearfield, past the midfield, and into the farfield... the listener experiences the Sound Power component of room acoustics... thus elevated balance favoring the lower octaves.
It's 'farther away' not 'further away'. Farther being a word that denotes distance, further being a word that denotes a philosophical, or some other type of increment of progression other than physical distance IE 'He furthered his career by making some good contacts'.
I have experimented quite a bit with my nearfield set up running tubbed McIntosh gear and Sonus faber Oly Is. Treatments and declutterization of the room helped a lot. Then experimentation with toe and distance from listener and in between speakers. I found that s lightly lesser toe sounded good. Then I thought I can get these speakers even further apart---- nope that totally collapsed the center image. The answer was to keep the very slight inward toe but to move the speakers back to their original spot and then move them in a further 3 inches on each side. I do believe I am sitting at 5.5 feet away now but just 5 feet between the speakers rather than an equal 5.5 feet to match--or the 6+ feet that I had tried. Funny what magic trying various positions will eventually bring.
i have a small untreated room and love how the bass sounds being reflected and being louder overall also helps me with generalizing how the mix sounds instead of being close and maybe more detail orientated
Hello, I’m a newbie in the world of stereo listening, I have a small living room with my listening chair up against the back wall which is around 10 feet from the front wall. I have a klipsch R-602F around 12 inches from the front wall. They sound great but since my listening distance is fixed. I wonder, would it be better to have a smaller bookshelf like the RP-600M II to have a better soundstage and clarity? Thanks
My French Lecontoure Stabile 160 Floorstanders, which have the bass driver, placed in the back of the cabinet, is capable of being very close to the backwall. It's placed near the floor, in a kind of sealed "box", designed for being able to go Sub deep, and they does. But you can easily play with Them, and get them out from the wall. I love that flexibility a lot. ✌️❤️🇩🇰
HI, have you ever tried to listen to maggies from the back wall ? I mean beeing four feet away from the rear pannel and the wall in front of you at about 12 feet or more. Unusual but worth it i find. Of course right and left are reversed then. Alain
A great topic and fantastic suggestions. I’m 11 feet away from my Founder tower F-100’s and have a JL sub. NAD C-658 pre-amp/streamer and NAD C-298 amplifier at 185 watts per channel. Canadian companies as I live in Canada. I’m using the triangle measurement s and speakers are about 8 feet apart and slightly toed in and my ears are at about 11 feet from front of speakers. Some room limitations like most but good recordings are amazing with good soundstage and imaging. I would love a pair of Klipsch Heritage if I had more space. The LS50 Meta look interesting for near field listening. I will have to check them out some time.
Would open baffle speakers behave similarly to the Maggies in respect to listening distances? I had the great privilege of hearing Decware Zen Master open baffle speakers (driven by a 2 watt Zen Triode amp) 2 or 3 feet into a room at a listening distance of 6 or 8 feet. The result was stunning.
I have a pair of DCM Time Windows (original model) with an NAD 3020 (original model) from the late 1970s. Best sound has always been > 15 feet with uneven walls on both sides. No toe-in at that distance. Now they are cramped in my home office only 9 feet away, and sound OK. 🙁
Question: Does having stuff - an audio rack, LP collection, or whatever - sitting right between or in between but just behind your speakers affect stereo imaging, especially depth of the sound field? I like to listen to jazz that was recorded live with the band sitting in a space with depth and width that can be easily discerned over stereo loudspeakers. But sometimes I get the feeling that I can get even better results (with depth of sound field especially) if I relocated my audio rack from between my speakers to a different place nearby and keep that space open. Thanks for your reply...
Yes, it matters... and it's likely significant relative to the specific elements you mentioned, ie., imaging and soundstage three dimensionality. Loudspeakers radiate SO MUCH energy in all directions outward from their location. Any perturbation of that propagating energy... or anything that energy encounters generates another sound source... smearing the direct sound. Obviously in the LF whereby the wavelengths are larger than the room items ... then the LF simply bends around and continues on. But the critical mid-band and HF possess shorter wavelengths that reflect and redirect off the gear, cabinets, etc. This was one of my first audiophile type lessens I stumbled upon and learned the hard way. My bachelor pad apartment in the 80's, chosen just for the room dimensions. A big, high ceiling old schoolhouse converted into apartments/condos. The main room being 16 feet wide, 25 feet deep, 14 foot high ceilings... phenomenal for two channel playback! Got married (35yrs and running), as a wedding gift from my Mom and Dad, we received a beautiful oak cabinet for my gear. It looked perfect in between the speakers... 80's oak chic! However, it entirely trashed my listening experience... and once heard, once that difference is clear, it's nearly impossible to put it out of your mind and not think about it. As a relatively expensive gift from my folks,... I felt compelled to keep it and make it work. Over time, we removed it, placing it elsewhere... and that glorious soundstage was back. It wasn't subtle. When loudspeakers recreate a recorded event, for that recreation to fully manifest, ideally the energy needn't reflect off anything within the first 10 to 20 milli-secs. You need a sufficient ITD, or Initial Time Delay between the direct energy and the first arriving reflected energy. ITD Gap; www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-dictionary/initial-time-delay-gap-(itdg)
I have owned either Horn loaded speakers , modified line arrays or full line arrays since the beginning in 1961. I worked for a radio Station and professional sound company that also sold retail stereo equipment since 1963 till I retired in 2003. I am also a Syn-aud-con Graduate. I learned a long time go every speaker has a directivity quotient at every point on the audio spectrum. Preferably you should sit where the near field and the far field are equal where the ear is most sensitive, 2000 HZ octave. That way you get the definition and sense of space we all want. It is easy to find. Just play pink noise over your system and where the level stops dropping off as you move away from the speakers is the desired distance. Speakers that have different arrival times from their drivers need that distance to blend together. So with my big old speakers with the line array of tweeters 15ft is a minimum distance for me. With the 8 ft tall line arrays 19 ft is the ideal space but as I use then as critical monitors I sit at 14 ft. Because they are almost perfect line arrays they only drop off about 3.5 db every time I double the distance. Where most of the speakers drop off 6 db every time you double the distance. The reason I prefer line arrays is you get full spectrum of sound, from 16 to 20,000 hz and I basically use an b curve of equalization to have a +/- 2 db response to 10,000 with a little more roll off above that. Line arrays give you a wall of sound. They never sound like small point source box speakers. Be they Corn walls AR-3 or your favorite Elacs or Kefs. Because line arrays only radiate to the rear when the wave lengths become longer the clarity is even better than dipole speakers. And you don't have cancellations from early reflections from the rear like you do with dipole speakers. Line arrays will handle more power with much less distortion, too. Yes they require power, but with less fall off after you are many feet away it becomes less of an issue. So at 10 ft ,most people loose 10 db of dynamic capability where I only loose around 5 db. At 14 ft. Ive only lost about 7 db. So I have picked up about 6.5 db in sensitivity on Cornwalls. My speakers are rated as 88 db 1 meter. So at 14 ft my equivalent efficiency is now about 94 db. Which means I only use about 8 times the power of a Cornwall, where at 1 meter I would use about 25 times the power. But all this conjecture depends on where the Critical distance is where the near field equals the far field. Because once you are past the Dc , critical distance there is no more fall off in sound level just the definition continues to disappear. What does this all mean. Sit as far way from your speakers as you can without loosing definition and buy speakers with great dynamic range and full spectrum capability with low distortions so you don't have to buy big expensive power amps..
Excellent info. Thanks!
Wow 👍😎
Very true Steve…very notable when listening in the garden mucking about.
I break all the rules - I have a pool table between my speakers and love every minute of it. I want to fill the room and enjoy the music. If I want ultra critical listening, I'll put on some headphones or listen to studio monitors on my PC.
Enjoy! Keep doing what you're doing!!
Thanks Steve for today's topic. I bought a used pair of Magnepan 2.7s a year ago and I'm still experimenting with placement. I love what you had to say because I've had the same experience. The further back I move the better my system sounds. I currently have my Maggie's 5ft from the front wall and my listening position is 13ft from them. Last night I moved them 10inches further apart and sound stage completely filled the room. I typically let myself acclimate to a single speaker position change for few weeks before making another but now I have to rush home tonight push my listening chair back a couple more feet and see what happens. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Nice to hear from you Michael!
Right now in my 13' 3" by 14' 8" room, with my Elac UniFi Reference speakers 55" from the rear wall, the speakers 6" 1" apart I sit 6" 3" away (with 2 1/2' of pace behind me to the rear wall) and I love the sound.
The best experience I have had with my LRS is one day I pulled them into the center of the room while working elsewhere in the house. Approaching the entryway from the adjacent room the speakers were gone and there was a 3-d stage projected behind the panels across the back wall. Amazing. Dave Matthews live at Red Rocks was the album. Hegel H360 amp.
I have decided to finally start putting some input. I do not know why I picked this as I am only familiar with how good Maggie's can sound. I thought like you it has more to do with moving them towards the middle of the room. I have yet to hear the lrs but I like the 1.7.
How about a video about short wall vs long wall speaker placement? Interesting segment!
I tried moving my Missions LX One speakers 10 feet apart on a different wall of the house and it was like buying a new set of speakers - so much potential was revealed by simply relocating the speakers
I have a pair of Heresy’s IV and frequently note when I am 14 feet away they sounds very good
I had a nearfield system in a apartment bedroom that consisted of Focal floor standing speakers. Sat three feet away or so and it was amazing. When I moved back in another house and sat at distance it seems dull and lifeless in comparison. The kids in the song School by Supertramp were always outside in my yard :)
My 40 years with Cornwalls taught me…the more air they move, the better they sound. In a bar, a barn, or even better yet: outdoors! NO room at all! Ever try it?? It’s amazing.
Yes , I start with 1/3 rule for spkr n hearing position from front n back wall , then an equilateral triangle , then move em slightly by 1/2 inch steps. Then I put some IsoAcoustic pucks on the spkr spikes ( cheap from AudioBastion, don’t need Gaias ) the improvement was quite amazing. Learnt all that from this channel , including carpets , velvet cover for TV n coffee table , front n back wall treatment - all done very cheap but effective. I’m def a fan of this channel , almost everything I buy Kef , Denafrips is from your reviews. Keep up the good work Steve.
So I have a 'second listening room' with my old speakers (B&W CDM 7SEs). they're about 5-6 feet from the wall, and a little over 5 feet apart. I've found if I sit only slightly in front of them (head about a foot in front or less), dead in the middle, I get this amazing holographic bubble of sound coming at me from the front wall (aka behind the speakers). It's a really interesting experience, and very different from any I had tried in the past.
This is what rainy days are for. Years back I had Martin Logan Aerius speakers - owned them for 12 years - and one day I decided to mess around with their placement. I angled these dipolar speakers outward, rather than inward toward the listening seat. Goofy? Sure, but immense fun too. This positioning caused the phantom center image to recede far behind the plane of the speakers. It made a wall disappear!
Thanks for the suggestion Steve! I widened the distance between my Von Schweikert’s and MMG’s and am very happy with the improved sound stage!
There's an Audiophiliac imposter scamming my viewers, DON'T respond! I don't do giveaways or ask for money (except for my Patreon).
Steve! This video is so much more than expected. My main system has Maggie.7s that I normally sit about 10’ in front of, and they’re usually 4’+ from the front wall. I think the word is OMG.
But I’m rearranging the room to accommodate guests, and now I’m about 6 feet in front of them. Still awesome, but not nearly so much. What a difference a little distance can make!
Hey I have the .7's and after lot's of experimenting l found in my room that the position ended up being 4' from the wall, 9' apart and 11' feet from my listening position I position the tweeters on the outside and have slight toe in
I went with the Mega Risers stands to get the speakers up off the floor more
If you want to hear my rig, l did a UA-cam vid called "Magnepan.7's doing their thing" actually two one with Tube amp and one with D class amp
I have a terrible room, 12x12 and a 12 ft ceiling. It’s the only room in the house that I can use for a dedicated space. I have single driver no crossover speakers and the Decware Zen set amp. I am near field, maybe not an exact equilateral triangle but close, about 6’. Amazingly I get really good soundstaging. I think I would stay near field even in a better room.
Thank you for the tip!
Two years ago I bought Klipsch Heresy IVs on your advice. To paraphrase, You need to own horn loaded speakers once in your life, approaching 73 at the time, seemed right.
I’ve loved the speakers in my casita. Having just enough space to move from 9 ft to almost 12 feet has opened them up even more!!
Thank you
Alan Petsche
Marantz SR6007
Pro-Ject TT w/Ortofon 2M Blue
OPPO BDR 105
Klipsch Heresy IV
I have a set of klipsch R-14m bookshelf speakers on my desk with a subwoofer under the desk and when I lean my chair back it gets me about 4.5 - 5ft away with the speakers 4ft apart with a slight toe in. At that point those speakers disappear and its all about the tunes!
Many years back in 1984 (+/- 1'yr) i bought a mint & very little used pair of the largest e/stats i'd ever owned, from my local u.k. hi'fi dealer, the Accustat Model 'X' e/stats & by one sheer chance event, i reckognised their ability to project their sound an unusualy long distance along the line of their tight directional output axis, without any noticable drop-off in volume or sound quality & a barely noticed drop-off in e/stat's typical tight directionality, despite the slight curvature to the in-built placement of their 3 tall, flat & vertically aligned adjacent full-range panels.
One summer day, i went into the garden to set-up the reclining chairs & sun umbrella while my then girlfriend & now wife, was still inside listening to the music playing quietly at a background music level.
Behind one of the toed-in Accustats is a sliding door section in the floor to near ceiling height of the 12"ft wide Fench windows... (folk here call them, maybe pretentiously) ...that gets fully slid open to leave a 4'ft wide breathing area, for a hot summer's heat.
Normally, the puposefully bought extra thick double lined curtains of the same floor to nr' ceiling height & width are fully closed when playing music on any speaker but especially for e/stats so their rear projecting panel's output does't bounce-off that tall & wide all-glass area behind the Accustat X's that stood 4 or 5 foot in front, but on this hot day, the curtains were pulled back to let the air in the open sliding section. The chance event happened when i was unfolding the chairs, i noticed the sound from that speaker in front of the slid open section was projecting it's rear output directly at the next of chairs & sun umbrella & sounded as loud as that speaker did inside the living room. So it became a normal thing when the Accustat's were permanently set up, whenever i or we sat in the garden, i would mono-up the sound output with a 2-into-1 phono plug & feed it to the combined valve poweramp/panel energizer that sat on the Accustat X's rear bottom wooden (not) shelf & 'walk' that one speaker 3'ft nearer the slid-open glass door & fine tune the direction to where we normally sit in the garden. Any speaker will do that BUT only a highly directional e/stat can cast a narrow beam of sound at low vollume & still be clearly heard & without disturbing the neighbours who may be in there gardens.... (I've e never heard M.Logans & don't know if they do much to spread out the sweet spot) ..Because as you walked away sideways from the garden seating area, the sound rapidly dropped in vollume & behind us in that sound beam are thick conifers , a shed & an empty dead-end road. That was the only time in my life that i prefered CDs as the returns to change the music were sliced in half, tho i did play L.P.s sometimes. Mono speaker listening was fine for that garden luxery.
Those old e/stat are still working well to this day, after an amp/energiser repair that kept them off-road for ages, but my (now) wife will not tollerate their humungous size ("Are We Not Men?" ...Dee'Ee'Evo) they're not 'big' to me but she calls them "Monsters" i think it's only becsuse they need to stand well out from rear bounderies in the room. But they were great for summer mono sounds in the garden where a normal box speaker pointing out would drive neighbours up the road barmy, even tho we're in the end house.
With working from home a lot more I set up a desktop music system with a DAC retired from my HiFi and some PreSonus active speakers and nearfield listening has been a revelation, it's just been a really engaging way to listen to music, very different from the main system sat a room length from ATC floor standing speakers.
Thanks, Steve - always enjoy your presentations!
Same experience here. I have Klipsch Forte III speakers with a Decware Zen UFO2 amp in my open concept home. My listening chairs in living room are about 9 feet from speakers love the sound, but I prefer the sound in my kitchen, around 15 feet away. Thought I was alone in this experience.
Hi Steve, First of all, I have to thank you for insight into HiFi listening. I enjoy the channel very much. I use a pair of QUAD 2905. I put each on a board with four castors so that I can play with distance and toe-in anyway I like. I guess this is a cheap but effective upgrade for my system. When I listen with friends, some like near them near (within 4 feet) but I like a bit further away (over ten feet). The sound is more holistic, and relaxed. I use all tube gears.
I had a Carver C-9 sonic holographic generator back in the day. First two setups in different rooms was not too good and forgettable. However, on my third try in yet another room, the setup was magic! The soundstage was beyond the corners of the room! All genres of music sounded good, too! So many years have past now and the C-9 is in a box, but I often wonder if my original amazement was warranted!
OMG - recently upgraded a few bits but still wasn’t sounding the best. I rejigged my room, sat further away, gave them more space and WOW. Best upgrade of all.
💯 % agree with speakers placement. It is the main soul of the system. Once found the best equilateral triangle spot in the room, than you are in audio heaven. Also if done correctly with the sub, it just open up all the way from low to highs…just amazing to listen. So yea, speakers placement can do or break your sound system.
Also listening near field after lots of experimentation with my office audio. Standmount speakers (1.5 metre separation) and my listening position is just under 1.5 metre away. Played about with 'toe-in' until I worked out that in my office space 'less was definitely more'.
My office rig is hardly audiophile: Kanto YU4 powered speakers and sub via an iFi Audio Zen DAC but an upgrade is planned.
By the way, cool shirt Steve. My collection of vivid floral shirts baffles my friends.
Truer words couldn't be spoken.Thanks again Steve Guttenberg, your expertise is greatly appreciated. Horns abound..walls come crumbling down...St.Gabriel blows his horn.....the walls come tumbling down...
Great video Steve of course I love listening to my OG elac ub5s in my 10x10 room about 4 ft away with a toe in they're on wall brackets so I can't pull them away from the wall too much maybe 12 in at the most but still very happy keep up the good work!!
100% agree. My room is 35' deep. Moving farther away sounds a lot more realistic with my Emerald Physics 3.4s (Open Baffle, 12" woofer with 1" concentric polyester tweeter)
Hi Steve. I'm a getting older audiophile I guess ;-) As a rule, the Big speakers I owned (Tannoy Arden, Scalas.. IMF trans lines, Celestio 66) even Quad 57, did need lots of space to breath and image. Not a good match for nearfeald.
As I moved to a small apartment (Québec city) I use smaller speakers (Reference 3AMM) and a 45SE amp and I'm curious to try nearfield with this set up. I look forward to get a smaller pair of Tannoys.
A small video on horn types would be welcomed. Not all horns do use ''compression'' drivers, and these sound much better than the regular aluminum tweeter with a horn.. Thanks for the great work.
Yes - a video on horn types please.
I see more and more Audiophiles enjoying music on vintage gear amps and receivers way cool
I'm listening to my ALTEC 604Es (with Markus Klug horns) in far field now. They sound incredible! Midfield, they sound good, but the sound really locks in in far-field mode.
In my case the room pretty much determines where I sit but I do have a small amount of flexibility. I'm always amazed just how much small changes in distance and toe-in can make.
I just acquired a pair of Boston acoustics RS 326, and I use Cambridge Audio axr100 to power them. I use them to watch tv or play some background music. They're in my vaulted living room which is about 15x20. Here's the interesting part, my couch is about 6 feet away from the speakers and tv, they sound okay. One day I was cleaning behind the couch where my shoe stand is and I was blown away by how better these speakers sounded from 12 feet away at the opposite wall! This is craziest experience of mine so far... better highs, and punchy bass that went down to 28 hertz. At my couch it barely hits 40, and highs are rolled off too! These speakers are 45 inch tall.
As sort of a corollary to your idea of changing your listening position I highly recommend experimenting with modifying the acoustics of your listening room by low cost or free experimental modifications, then perhaps later by making larger investments in research and acoustical materials.
I’m also a big fan of Klipsch speakers but my enjoyment of them began when I was a high school student in the early 70s in a high school band that had a director who used to spend summers working at the Klipsch plant in Hope Arkansas and knew Paul Klipsch personally. So at a young age I was introduced to Klipschorns in a very large room with minimal reflective surfaces. I was pretty much hooked on Klipsch from that point forward.
At one time I owned a house that had a music room of about 500 ft.² with Klipschorns in the corners. With wood floors it started out as a fairly live room but as we began to add furniture and rugs it improved significantly as a listening room. However one of the biggest improvements came when I added some 3 inch thick 2’x4’ Rockwool acoustic panels on each side of the corner horns centered near the mid and treble horns. The sound was transformed by that single low cost addition.
Fast forward to more recent times, a much much small room, and 1980 era Heresy speakers in this very small bedroom I had acoustically treated for use as my new voice over studio. After I finished working on it there were very few reflective surfaces. Acoustical panels and foam were added in an attempt to control reflections of wide spectrum sounds, although true control of bass reflections with proper bass traps was out my range of affordability. The near-field sound of those Heresy speakers was amazing! Even at 4’ - 5’ away the speakers disappeared and a wonderful soundstage was apparent (I’m primarily a classical/orchestral music listener).
Now fast forward again to the present where in our new house the “listening room”/bedroom is fairly large but with quite a bit of reflective surfaces and hardwood floor with no rug underneath the Heresy speakers - and the sound is a bit disappointing at seven or 8 feet away. Hopefully a combination of your advice - by further experimentation with moving further away or possibly even closer will help me determine the best permanent position. Either way I think adding some acoustically absorbent materials to the room will help overall. My hifi listening space is no longer in my voice over studio but has now been relegated to one end of our bedroom. At this point it’s a work in progress and it may turn out pretty good. I think most people do not realize that room acoustics play a much larger role in the sound they hear than the speakers many times.
Your idea of sitting much closer to your speakers to lessen the effect of potentially poor room acoustics is a good recommendation, especially for people who have not considered their room acoustics.
I have some Jamo tower speakers that I have elevated almost 4 ft. ( which puts the tweeter at about 7ft. high) and I sit back 18 ft. (my ceiling is vaulted)...sounds great to me!
Great topic... A critical piece to experiment with.
Hi Steve, I relayed the same message to Gene at Audioholics about sound improvement or spending a dime on equipment. Not even moving speakers around either. How about we all think about our inner ear health starting with a visit to your doctor's office or a walk in clinic and treat our ears to a thorough professional pressure cleaning that can only be performed there. When I went I was shocked to see the clumps of dirt and wax robbing me of perfect hearing afterwards. The overall feeling cannot be understated and of course my hearing became sharper and clearer just like that. I would not recommend the over the counter syringe and bulb because it does not get out the embedded dirt. Let me know what you think. When I came home and played music again it was like I was hearing it all for the first time...woweeeee.
Very good advice!
The big Klipsch speakers have always sounded better to me at a distance. A lot of people call Klipsch "party speakers" which fits my impression of them. Some speakers are better nearfield; horn speakers I think are best at some distance.
So this is timely…as I’ve been trying different spacing and arrangements in my listening room. I’d had everything set and sounding pretty good with my Quad S2’s about 6 ft apart, about 19 inches from front wall, and Rel sub to one side toward a corner. Then I got a new power amp that sounds amazing..but now might need to bring the quads closer together as the stage seems much wider and deeper (hence a bit out of focus but so much more REAL). Hoping I didn’t just upgrade myself out of my room! 🤞🏼
A great video Steve. I have 2 systems in one room . My main Imf speakers used to be by my bay window & my Wharfdale /Leak System was opposite. Now I have the Imfs firing the short length but much further apart & the Wharfdale system firing opposite to that . My sofa is in-between. Sounds different & enjoying results
Love it! Super informative as always Steve!
Steve I just love your presentations your energy especially and your vocabulary and your downright excitement about what you talk of is so enjoyable thank you for being here.😎
Thanks, Steve. Now I had to knock a wall out and the wife is pissed!
Eraserhead Soundtrack? The thought never before entered my mind. This is to be tonight's after-dinner listening: thank you!!!❤️
I wish i had a bigger room to experiment more with the placement of my L100 Classics. They do rock at low and high volumes. I was expecting deeper bass with a 12” woofer but it is what it is, and is no slouch by any means. Also, i need to listen to Chicago III thru them. Its been awhile.
Come to think of it, i thought that was Chicago II? I could be wrong tho, like i said, its been quite some time. Both excellent albums.
My listening area is very compromised in terms of size and having a sloping roof. I have around 10 feet between my speakers and I sit 6 feet from them . The speakers are 60cm from the back wall.
My set up is a dCS Bartok dac , dCS Rossini clock , Meridian 808v6 CD player , rega rp10 turntable , ch precision a1.5 power amp and stenheim alumine 3 speakers . the near field experience is very satisfying in terms of detail retrieval , sound stage , dynamics and minimal reflective interference .
STEVE…STEVE…STEVE……!!! We do not all live in giant Brooklyn lofts and own massive Klipsch Speakers! 🥹
I have a KILLER system…but my MAX back from my DynAudio Contour 20s is 10 feet! …but sounds so good!
8 feet is my REAL SWEET SPOT! At least I can wear cool shirts like you, though! 👕 😁😂😎
Acoustats!!! I had one of my MAJOR audio moments with a pair of them in the private listening room at HiFi Haven in New Brunswick, N.J.,in the early 80s!!! I will NEVER forget that day!!! It was an epic audiophile learning experience.
I'm just curious...is there a standard definition of "audiophile" or "high-end" equipment? I mean, is it a matter of how many zeros are in the price tag? Type of connections in the back? Content of the materials? Separates vs all-in-one? I perused some websites, and it seems that high end equipment costs between as much as a car and a house. If that's the case I'll just have to dream about having a nice system.
Thanks Steve, great topic. How would you recommend going about an irregular room (L-shaped)? with upholstered furniture one one side and open on the other?
The directivity and freedom of room reflections of large horns not only makes them the logical choice for larger spaces and distant listening positions it also make them a superior nearfild choice if set up to perform as such.
I have 2 rooms side by side that are 24 feetx12 feet. The TV room has an open dining room. It has a NAD M10 and 2+1 speakers. The den has an open kitchen in the back. This set up Parasound P23+ two GR Research XLR Encore and a Node so I have the exact same music in both rooms. I also have Bluesound Pulse in my bedrooms and the Bluesound Vault in my office + SMLS D Amp and book shelves. I enjoy going back and forth at 18 to 20 feet and comparing them.
I have Dali Rubicon 2 speakers. I have them one and a half feet from the wall, six feet apart and seven feet from my listening chair. I find this this best in my smallish room.
I have Larsen 8.2 speakers which work really well in a typical living room setting inasmuch as they are made to go right up tight against the wall and therefor do not impinge upon your living space. I've been sitting about 8' away. The sound is okay. Then we bought a new breakfast bar table which we put right behind my listening position. The chair I sit in there is a high stool. SO now I am higher and about 15' away. Everything from there just sounds glorious to me.
Excellent discussion here
Great topic Steve! I always urge my audiophile clients to experiment with speaker placement. Proper speaker and seating setup contribute just as much to a system's sound as your choice of amplification and speaker. Too often I find beautiful high-end speakers pressed right up against the wall, too far apart, or other common placement mistakes. Parenthetically, most people need to accommodate the sensibilities of their non-audiophile significant others, family members, and even Interior Decorators! This limits the speaker placement and seating options for most of the people that I meet in real life.
This is true. If i want to listen to my hi fi, I have to move half the furniture and the sofa in the living room 😤 ... that's how it goes if you follow the tips on setting up hi fi from other family members ... especially my wife .
tis also the magic of martin logan esl... near and far,,, both are kewl
I have BMW 803’s and I’m running a distance of 12 feet away from my speakers they’re towed in
My room is only 8 x 10 so I am sitting 5ft away, the speakers are only 16 inches away from the wall and near a door but I like the sound and the sub makes it even better now.
I have been playing with speaker position since I saw this video. I found the are better afoot farther apart (now 8 feet) and sitting from 6 to 8 feet from the speakers. I have Energy Veritas 2.8 speakers and a Theta Digital Dreadnaught amp. The speakers are 50" from the front wall.
😯 Wow Angelo, what an amazing set up!!!! I wish that I could have the same experience 🙏🏼
Steve is really Mr Analog....checkout his "tablet " at 7:47 🏆🏅 priceless😀
Talk about timing! I just placed my Tannoys further apart and the listening position 14 feet away. Sounds amazing!
I find for my setup. 15 ft away is where I get the best imaging and clarity and detail
Having a small room in my condo which serves as the primary listening room and office I have limited ability to change distances at home at 7 to 9 feet. (Vandersteen C2 I's , Ess Amt 1 B and Ohm Walsh H's.)
Despite this I love listening from my living room ambiently at 30 feet from the speakers. I also was surprised at how good my JBL 4310's sound in my friend's living room/piano room not at near field from 15-20 feet away.
I am in much the same situation in my apartment. 11'-3" x 11'-3" room. Its my listening room and office. I found a great deal on Cornwall IVs that I couldn't pass up, talk about a crowded listening room! I should say that my walls are angled as such that the sounds comes out to the living room really well for background music. For me my place is temporary and I doubt I will stay past my lease
I wish you had also talked about the distance between speakers. If you create enough clearance from the corners of the room what is the minimum distance you should strive for between the speakers?
Well that depends on the size of the room. But to answer your question directly 5 feet between the speakers, and the general rule of thumb is to have an equilateral triangle between the speakers and the listener.
You would know about this... Why am I getting so much static build up on some of my vinyl records and not others? The platter mat is literally sticking to the underside of some records after play. I use a velvet record pad to clean records. Seems to happen more with new release 180 G vinyl. :0)
Don't forget to give this video a thumbs up!👍
VSOD what happens if we have multiple systems send you photos of them all or just pick the best and send to you. HOW CAN YOU CHOOSE WHAT DO YOU DO if my system has not appeared in Steve’s channel I’m merely a Hi-Fi enthusiast. How does one achieve audiophile status maybe we could see a video on why it takes to make the cut? Topps vids always.
Yeah choosing between a pioneer sx-1980 or PS AUDIO or Nene Valley Audio, McIntosh, Clear Audio, Bozak, KRIX names synonymous in the field of quality setups but what is the magic, back story, perfect pet, hideous rug or origami headphone stand that gets Goot’s Ga Ga?
Interesting gear, good photography, not too much information or backstory. There are always exceptions, but generally that’s what I’m looking for. But please understand I get a lot of pictures, so I miss some great ones.
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac hrmmm ok well if your saying me draped over my Dorrough Meters in my undies turning up the volume knob on my sx-1980 with my toe, then I will Colour in the the white elastic on the waistband to blend in with the rest of my Disintegrating duds. Lol
Regardless of room size, attempts at altering distance between listener and speaker must also consider not getting the speaker too close to the front wall and the listener too close to the back wall. Things can go bad quick. But have at it, well worth the effort when you find improvements.
What about wider? Is Moving the speakers further away from another will that make a difference for sound quality.
Steve, do you still using wireworld power cords? I ask because you’re mentioned conditiong in this video, so I’m curious because I also have them, but on the shelf, not in my system…
I agree with nearfield listening 100%. I moved my Wilsons using the rule of 3rds vs their recommendation and the speakers sounded better than I've ever heard them! Scary imaging, amazing bass, and the speakers disappeared even when staring directly at them. I'm sitting 9 ft away and I'm kicking myself for not trying this years ago! I'm using the slightest toe-in and it's like I have a new pair of speakers! It took some getting used to...having the speakers so close after 30 years of far-field listening but it's now my new reality! I discovered that many of my albums which I thought were mediocre, actually sound pretty good, and that's what it's all about!
I want to see and hear the Mo-Fi spearkers second review!!!!!! I saw the unpacking first part where is the review of their SOUND!!!!!
try the Maggie's next to the side walls about 6" away pointing in about 20 degrees
The Maggie LRS at a distance ideal... any such panel type speaker, the physics of it's radiation lends itself to rendering a superior performance at a given long distance... vis-à-vis a typical point source multi-way.
Plus, out of the nearfield, past the midfield, and into the farfield... the listener experiences the Sound Power component of room acoustics... thus elevated balance favoring the lower octaves.
It's 'farther away' not 'further away'. Farther being a word that denotes distance, further being a word that denotes a philosophical, or some other type of increment of progression other than physical distance IE 'He furthered his career by making some good contacts'.
That don't make no sense though 😂
Those Cornwalls look fantastic.
I just tried it at 35 feet, my neighbors wanted to know why I was in their bedroom!
Steve, what do you think of Genelec the Ones? Any plans for a future test?
I have experimented quite a bit with my nearfield set up running tubbed McIntosh gear and Sonus faber Oly Is. Treatments and declutterization of the room helped a lot. Then experimentation with toe and distance from listener and in between speakers. I found that s lightly lesser toe sounded good. Then I thought I can get these speakers even further apart---- nope that totally collapsed the center image. The answer was to keep the very slight inward toe but to move the speakers back to their original spot and then move them in a further 3 inches on each side. I do believe I am sitting at 5.5 feet away now but just 5 feet between the speakers rather than an equal 5.5 feet to match--or the 6+ feet that I had tried. Funny what magic trying various positions will eventually bring.
i have a small untreated room and love how the bass sounds being reflected and being louder overall also helps me with generalizing how the mix sounds instead of being close and maybe more detail orientated
Hello, I’m a newbie in the world of stereo listening, I have a small living room with my listening chair up against the back wall which is around 10 feet from the front wall. I have a klipsch R-602F around 12 inches from the front wall. They sound great but since my listening distance is fixed. I wonder, would it be better to have a smaller bookshelf like the RP-600M II to have a better soundstage and clarity? Thanks
When we say ‘distance from the speaker’ are referring to the plane the speakers are on or from the speaker itself (diagonal)?
I mean from you to the front back for the speaker
Interesting topic and engaging presentation.
As a follow up please consider a presentation on listening position.
I love ur vids but we cant buy the magnapans as of right now. Been waiting but found out it will prob. Next year OR so be4ore avail. Tks 4 the review
Maybe look for a nice pair of used Maggies
Love the new type treatments Steve!
When you get closer to the speakers the experience gets similar to hearing on headphones. The "contact lenses" effect.
My French Lecontoure Stabile 160 Floorstanders, which have the bass driver, placed in the back of the cabinet, is capable of being very close to the backwall. It's placed near the floor, in a kind of sealed "box", designed for being able to go Sub deep, and they does. But you can easily play with Them, and get them out from the wall. I love that flexibility a lot.
✌️❤️🇩🇰
HI, have you ever tried to listen to maggies from the back wall ? I mean beeing four feet away from the rear pannel and the wall in front of you at about 12 feet or more. Unusual but worth it i find. Of course right and left are reversed then. Alain
A great topic and fantastic suggestions. I’m 11 feet away from my Founder tower F-100’s and have a JL sub. NAD C-658 pre-amp/streamer and NAD C-298 amplifier at 185 watts per channel. Canadian companies as I live in Canada. I’m using the triangle measurement s and speakers are about 8 feet apart and slightly toed in and my ears are at about 11 feet from front of speakers. Some room limitations like most but good recordings are amazing with good soundstage and imaging. I would love a pair of Klipsch Heritage if I had more space. The LS50 Meta look interesting for near field listening. I will have to check them out some time.
Nice furniture Jared!
Would open baffle speakers behave similarly to the Maggies in respect to listening distances? I had the great privilege of hearing Decware Zen Master open baffle speakers (driven by a 2 watt Zen Triode amp) 2 or 3 feet into a room at a listening distance of 6 or 8 feet. The result was stunning.
Hi Steve, I’m not sure about that I don’t have enough experience with open baffle speakers to say how they would fare over long distances
I have a pair of DCM Time Windows (original model) with an NAD 3020 (original model) from the late 1970s. Best sound has always been > 15 feet with uneven walls on both sides. No toe-in at that distance. Now they are cramped in my home office only 9 feet away, and sound OK. 🙁
I love that painting gets me every time
Distance measured from front baffle of each speaker? Or measured from the center point between each speaker?
I’m doing it from the front baffle of each speaker.
Question: Does having stuff - an audio rack, LP collection, or whatever - sitting right between or in between but just behind your speakers affect stereo imaging, especially depth of the sound field? I like to listen to jazz that was recorded live with the band sitting in a space with depth and width that can be easily discerned over stereo loudspeakers. But sometimes I get the feeling that I can get even better results (with depth of sound field especially) if I relocated my audio rack from between my speakers to a different place nearby and keep that space open. Thanks for your reply...
Yes, it matters... and it's likely significant relative to the specific elements you mentioned, ie., imaging and soundstage three dimensionality.
Loudspeakers radiate SO MUCH energy in all directions outward from their location.
Any perturbation of that propagating energy... or anything that energy encounters generates another sound source... smearing the direct sound.
Obviously in the LF whereby the wavelengths are larger than the room items ... then the LF simply bends around and continues on. But the critical mid-band and HF possess shorter wavelengths that reflect and redirect off the gear, cabinets, etc.
This was one of my first audiophile type lessens I stumbled upon and learned the hard way.
My bachelor pad apartment in the 80's, chosen just for the room dimensions. A big, high ceiling old schoolhouse converted into apartments/condos.
The main room being 16 feet wide, 25 feet deep, 14 foot high ceilings... phenomenal for two channel playback!
Got married (35yrs and running), as a wedding gift from my Mom and Dad, we received a beautiful oak cabinet for my gear. It looked perfect in between the speakers... 80's oak chic!
However, it entirely trashed my listening experience... and once heard, once that difference is clear, it's nearly impossible to put it out of your mind and not think about it.
As a relatively expensive gift from my folks,... I felt compelled to keep it and make it work.
Over time, we removed it, placing it elsewhere... and that glorious soundstage was back.
It wasn't subtle.
When loudspeakers recreate a recorded event, for that recreation to fully manifest, ideally the energy needn't reflect off anything within the first 10 to 20 milli-secs.
You need a sufficient ITD, or Initial Time Delay between the direct energy and the first arriving reflected energy.
ITD Gap;
www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-dictionary/initial-time-delay-gap-(itdg)