L.O.T.S. Loudspeaker Optimization Techniques for Soundstage!
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- Опубліковано 21 тра 2024
- LOTS | Loudspeaker Optimization Techniques for Soundstage!
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original "LOTS" video: • AUDIOPHILE SOUNDSTAGE ...
0:00 Start
02:02 What is soundstage
03:51 Do we need tools
05:23 First, quick math
07:30 Laying tracks
11:15 Starting positions
11:56 Now we listen
13:37 ONE foot forward
15:37 Horizontal movements
16:50 Toe-in for final voicing
17:42 Tilt adjustments
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One thing to note: Siri and (assume Google) will be using decimals while I am using inches/feet. Feel free to convert if you want but keeping things simple, my method/math will get you close enough!
Do you mean: metric? :)
God bless the imperial system. #MakeItSimple
OK this isn’t difficult, my American cousins - 1” = 25mm/2.5cm. God willing this will allow a very quick and simplistic formula to abide by. If you’re absorbing NRD beyond my abilities this should be a no brainer 30cm per foot as 🇦🇺 has/had a foot in both camps for to long; imperial is just not accurate enough and is aligned with a generation before mine in the land of Oz. As an engineer mate near enough isn’t good enough, but, clearly Ron made it very clear this is not an exact science, many things will impact the riggs performance 🎭 Thanking you Ron for giving clear advice and justifying the importance of consideration toward placement ✌🏽🔊
OK now I notice this comment after making my pedantic comment LOL
Metric > imperial
As a pro audio engineer for more than 45 years I have to tell you, you nearly nailed this. You missed talking about one very important part of this, and the part this is unique to each room; standing waves. All of what you showed is 100% legit, (though I disagree on toe-in for reasons I will detail in a moment), but standing waves are where your entire process can fall apart.. In my particular room, if I put my listening place in your recommended spot, the bass falls off to almost nothing (cancelling wave). Move 12" back and it gets too loud, move 12" forward and it dials right in. My room is an anomaly, but the point is to listen CAREFULLY and not just follow 'instructions', no matter how talented the presenter.
Now, to toe-in. Toe-in sets up more cross talk between the speakers, which can produce lots of standing waves. Standing waves are USUALLY heard the best in the very low frequencies (described as 'booming' in many cases) but toe-in causes these at MID frequencies (possibly what you are calling 'shouty'). Yes, these DO indeed 'color' your sound, but I would postulate that all you are doing at that point is adding 'confusion' to your system.
I've actually tested this in an arena system as we were developing the 'flying array' systems that back in the 80's and 90's that are the norm now. We found that toe-in actually increased our power and coverage needs. Once we plotted the frequency responses from each side independently, then both sides together, it was clearly apparent that the speakers were 'fighting' each other when toed in. When left flat faced to the audience (even toed OUT a little) the edge response from each array summed in the middle to sound even across the room. Later we added center array's for vocal clarity, but kept the gain about 1-2db down for that array. later, when we began to run stereo rigs, we split the center array down the middle and discovered 'center channel' was better for an arena. It actually enhanced the stereo mix by allowing us to pan harder left and right without depriving the audience on the opposite sides of information. I think the case was that it may be a little easier to 'hear' these things when your room is hundreds of feet in each direction, and your sound system is driven by 150,000 watts! It does not hurt to be working with Dr Bose and Jack Weisberg (legendary NYC sound company owner) either!
In summary; talk about standing waves and how to listen for and accommodate them in the listening environment. Thanks for the great information videos!
That’s really interesting! In my home studio I have each speaker pointed right at my face. Are you saying I should have them pointing straight down the room, sort of playing right past my head?
@@SlowCarToChina The only thing you can do is try it out, and see what sounds best to you. It's your ears that will be listening to the music.
@@SlowCarToChina A speaker has a 'sound stage' and most designers do their thing with the speakers flat, not toed in. Try it flat. Close your eyes and 'position' each instrument on that soundstage. Make a 'map' in your head, then try it with toe-in. You decide. I find that the soundstage is more nuanced with my DCM TF750's flat, but they are exceptional imaging speakers. One thing you will find is that the smaller the 'face' of the speaker, the less an effect it has one way or the other. This method also brings your listening room into play more, which I prefer. Happy listening!
THIS IS INCREDIBLE!! For YEARS I knew something was off with my system and followed advice both from the manufacturer (Focal) and from countless "experts" online. The general idea of what everyone tells you is "avoid corners", "use an equilateral triangle pattern", and "listen and experiment". I am a very detail/fact oriented person, and your approach with 1 foot quadrants perfectly measured took enough of the guess work out of this to help me get my system perfect.
For anyone reading this, IT WORKS but you need to follow things exactly. Put the tape down. Measure everything... It will take about an hour of prep, but its worth it. The dark room idea helps as well. I started from the back and actually encountered two spots where things sounded incredible. Keep this in mind if the first spot you find isn't ideal. Also moving the speakers to the left or the right in the square changes things A LOT. I honestly wasnt expecting this. When you find the right spot, move the speakers far forward again then back a foot at a time... confirm your results!
Sending you a little something via PayPal as a huge thank you for this free advice!
Holy smokes man! Got your donation and can’t thank you enough! Really happy that you appreciated my tutorial and that you are up and running!
I tried it out tonight without exact measurement just to see and it work great. Gonna try again tomorrow with exact measurements as you suggested.
I can't believe it... I ended up with an equilateral triangle! LOL
I saw this video so long ago, but the information you shared stuck in my head. After two years I finally finished purchasing the items needed for a respectable system. It was tough having to sit and look at each piece on my shelf and wonder and dream of how it would all sound some day. Well today was the day I finally set it up.
Like many, I pushed the speakers back to the wall so there would be ample flow through the room. The sound was detailed and accurate, but something was off. There was no "presence" to the singers and instruments.
It was then I remembered your LOTS technique. I pulled the speakers WAAAY forward and started listening with my eyes closed in a dark room. I backed them up until I heard what you described as unmistakable and boy it was. When that spot hit, suddenly I had musicians and singers centered right in front of me with decays off to the sides. If I hadn't experienced that from your words of audio wisdom, I would have been missing the real joys of owning an audiophile system. I would have wanted new speakers at a minimum and perhaps even thought it was altogether a waste of money. But when the soundstage was properly set up, a huge smile just lit across my face. It was emotional, involving, and it drew you in.
My room may not be neat and orderly when compared to others, but oh the sound, the glorious sound. Thanks again Ron
O.M.F.G! This is amazing. I thought I had things dialed in pretty good and I was actually close. BUT... Using this method I wound up with my speakers moved back about 8 inches more than I had them (1/3 into the room, opposite of my chair) and about 4 inches each more toward the center of the room. My goodness the speakers completely vanished, the soundstage opened up and is vast and cohesive. I couldn't be happier. Thanks so much for this!
And this is the difference between a real listening room and a home theater, or a family room. Hard to get perfect speaker placement without a dedicated room where you can get the speakers away from the walls. Because of the layout of my theater I've long known that my speaker placement for music sucks so I'm knowingly sacrificing it - but I've been doing it for so long I'd sort of forgotten about the 'magic' I know my speakers can deliver. You've inspired me to move them around - if even for the day - just to experience the magic again. Thanks! Maybe the sliders need to be permanent - move them out for an occasional listening session - slide them back when done.
Wow ! This absolutely WORKS !!!
I've tried other speaker placement tutorials and never got the effect that this has produced, but this method brought out a surround sound effect that I have NEVER achieved with my system. I couldn't believe it and even my wife sat there in the sweet spot and was amazed.. and she is a hard customer to please
I can't leave the speakers and seat in the locations that I ended up with, but they are marked on the floor for those times when I want to enjoy my stereo. It is amazing
Thanks a million !!!
Heck yeah!
There is LOTS of great advice in this video (sorry, I couldn’t resist). Rock solid method to getting your speakers in the right place. Well done buddy!
Best wishes from the other side of the pond, Tarun.
Hi Ron, I have watched hundreds of videos on acoustics and this is by far the best one on speaker placement. You will have to follow it up with sub placement for sure and please include setting the cross over. Also a mention about height maybe even in the desciption would be helpfull.... And to anyone who can't leave their speakers out in the middle of the room, you don't have to just put a small sticker on the floor and bring em out when you want to spoil yourself.
:
@@BubblePuppy. There's a simple way to make a dimple... ua-cam.com/video/6D6Fkkl8D3g/v-deo.html
Thanks Ron, great tutorial, shedding light on one of the most overlooked setup parameters for quality sound enjoyment. Can't beat learning from the success and experience of others.
Great job Ron. This is the best explanation I have ever heard or seen. I can’t wait to try this!
After checking out a couple of your videos, this one made me sub. Very well explained and put together. I have just recently experienced the sound stage from two towers and listening to music is a completely different experience now. Thanks for the hard work!
Great, very informative video Ron! I can easily tell that your videos have stepped up to the next level since you decided to go full time. For me, that means I search out your videos more often. Very nice job, Ron!
Thank you so much for this!
The tip of starting with the speakers all the way out instead of up against the wall was GOLD. I thought the poor sound in my new house was a function of reflections and a bad room.
I was ready to drop a bunch of cash on room treatments and even shop for different speakers (and i love my current speakers). Turns out I just needed them about 6' off the front wall.
Now my soundstage is holographic and the tubby bass is tightened right up. Outstanding. Thank you again!
Nice to fix it at NO COST
Thanks for all the efforts you put into that one Ron, fantastic video.
I’ve always kind of instinctively known this but your step by step procedure is so clear and concise. It should be “required viewing “ for any young audiophile. Brilliant work Ron , well done! I laugh when I think about how many times I’ve suggested to friends to come on out into the middle of the room and play... that’s where the magic happens. Wives hate me ! I try to settle them down by explaining how much money I just saved them in upgrades😂😂😂. A room is a terrible thing to waste...
This is awesome, well thought out and repeatable.
Great tutorial, very well explained and illustrated; definitely worth a try.
Just did this today. Totally life changing. My speakers are now super near field like literally a foot away (open baffle full range speaker) and I finally got the imaging I have been looking for. In fact I’m returning my center channel because I am now totally ok with a phantom center. You have saved me a lot of money and sleep less nights fiddling with stuff thanks you!
Ps: can’t wait for the M6 and Spring 3 reviews those are my end game additions hopefully!
I totally agree with the lights off eyes open approach for listening!
Great tutorial. Just “corrected” my rig. WOW
After spending a year trying to get my stereo to sound like what I knew it should be I spent yesterday morning employing the L.O.T.S. system. I finally realized how much of my mid-range had been missing. When they locked in the mids bloomed which made the true bass more apparent. This in turn helped me to integrate my pair of subs much easier and I am much much closer to realizing my rig's potential. Thanks! You've probably saved me some big $$ in component upgrades!
I want to be brief for the time being, this LOTS system works some serious magic with my speaker placement, Ron thank you so much for a clear understanding of what to listen for and how to go about doing it, music is now detached from my speakers with a spooky holographic phantom image.
Yessssss!
I'm getting a kick how you're saying tape measure (maysure). Love it. 😂 I had to rewind a few time to make sure it wasn't my hearing.
Hahaha
This is awesome! Please keep sharing tips and tweaks.
The best explanation of placing I have ever heard/seen. Thanks, dude. Keep on rocking.
Hey thanks man
Ron, This is a fantastic episode. I tried it and the results blew my mind. I had to make a few compromises but all in all, now I understand speaker disappearance. Thanks so much! Love this episode. Please keep doing stuff like this.
Great news! I love it!
Game changer. I had never worried too much about my listening position relative to the room, but that combined with having my speakers almost in the middle of the room (front to back) has created a depth of soundstage I hadn't heard before in my space. I'm using Cornwall IV speakers, nowhere near a corner or wall :)
Outstanding tutorial. I have been serious about music gear for many years and I knew nothing of this. Thank you!
I'm so glad I found this video! About 10 years ago I invested quite a bit into my sound system, especially the speakers, and I thought I had it set up pretty well, and was quite pleased with the sound, but somehow felt it was lacking a certain something... well this was it, I just needed to pull my speakers away from the wall! I could only bring them forward 30cm, but even that was enough to make a big difference, the music has really come to life, I'm enjoying my CD collection all over again. Thank you so much! 😊
Best how to on speaker set up ive ever seen!
I just got started and it freaking works. I have a small room. Wow. Thank you!
Awesome!
You’re always stepping up your game. Taket level 👍
Hey thanks!
I found this my own way. We got to the same place in different ways. This is very cool. When I get a new listening room I will do this and mine using this as my basis. Excellent video. Thank you for the beautiful explanation.
Thanks Ron, simple well explained tutorial, great acronym 😀.
I'm going to try this tonight. Thank you for taking the time to make this!
Greetings from the UK. Thank you for this video. I tried all sorts of methods to get sound stage breadth and depth. Most worked quite well. Yours was perfect and much easier to fine tune. Probably the best and certainly the cheapest major upgrade for any system. Thank you.
Awesome!
This was absolutely useful information ! And it was actually fun to do! Thanks for this.
This may be the best video on UA-cam
Tried this today. Worked great! Finally I have a holografic soundstage.
Ron this was great. Thank you. Hope you and your family are doing well.
Great video!!! I am definitely gonna give this technique a try! Thanks again for a great video! I learned a lot!
Good luck and have fun!
Having setup near field in a 10 x 12 bedroom for the last 2 years I can honestly say that it is a great solution especially for problem rooms. I ended up, after trying a few different speakers, with a pair of vintage Boston Acoustics T830 3 way floor standers, though admittedly due to their short height I had to raise them a foot from the wood floor it actually helped decouple them, and being a sealed design it keeps the low frequencies from being overpowering, especially as they are just 2 feet from the wall. I never thought a fairly large speaker could work so well in a smaller space.
I sit about 3 feet away on a fold down bed that serves as a couch, pulled out abut a foot from the opposing wall, works a treat. Of course, it is beneficial to use quality components that hopefully work together, I rotate a Yamaha RX 1100U receiver, Harman Kardon HK 3500 receiver and a Luxman L 215 integrated. They all work well , complimented by a Sansui SR 525 turntable and Denon blu ray player that I use as a transport through a MF V Dac.
I did position a pair of fairly expensive 2 way bookshelf speakers on top of the T830s and although a bit higher than optimum still manage to sound very good thankfully. I even prefer sitting near field in the larger living room with some larger floor standing speakers and find it just as enjoyable so well worth giving it a try.
If one has the good fortune to have the dimensions to take advantage of substantial full range floor standing speakers sitting further back can be quite the experience but most of us tend to have more modest systems with various constraints in place and so near field makes perfect sense with many more advantages than disadvantages.
Love this. Can’t wait to try it!
Brilliant! Thank you 😘
It is magic!!!!!!! Thank you so much. If you listen once like this, you cant go back. It is not music anymore
You are a genius! I followed your advice and it was like "Abracadaudio". Speakers are surprisingly far into the room but the sound stage is amazing. Thank you!
Awesome!
Few things...one, folks should know that combining the set up recommendations you present along with creating an (early) reflection free zone at the listening spot with a few strategically located absorption panels to kill those earliest hard reflections takes all this magic to the next level (there is soooo much more to behold beyond the "center image") and can remedy image shift issues in room set ups that don't allow for symmetry (equal distance between speakers and side walls). I remember your video on room acoustics, and I kept waiting for you to reference it in this video, but I suspect you were keeping the size of the pill small so folks who haven't embarked on the placement/room acoustics journey wouldn't feel intimidated or overwhelmed. But I think you'll agree that the payoff when combining the two is orders of magnitude more effective and affordable than something like expensive cable tweaks and/or upgrading your $500 DAC to a $1000 unit.
Two, you could probably do an entire video regarding how what we see when we're listening affects sound stage resolution. Lighting is a huge factor, but so is something like having metadata on a monitor in front of you that draws your attention away from the "free air"...or even one’s physical/emotional state (rested vs fatigued, sick vs healthy, etc). Fascinating chit.
And lastly, and its pretty pedantic, but THANK YOU for calling the wall behind the speakers the FRONT wall and the wall behind the listening spot the REAR wall. Drives me nuts when people reverse it (and I see and hear it happening A LOT in hifi discussions).
Ok...time to get back to work on my GRR x-Statik build. ;)
Outstanding job on this video, BTW!
I bought a FX Audio DAC for 50 bucks. I replaces the electrolytic capacitors with film caps and now it sounds like a $3,000 DAC. Oh ya I forgot about the OPA-627 "can" style op amp. That was a bit pricey, but holly smokes!!!!
Yep. My father was telling me that his speakers are front ported, so it doesn’t matter where they are. Until recently, when I came and moved them away from the wall and he’ve heard the thing. Now he’s a believer)
Thanks for sharing the technique, I’ve done it mostly by ear. I’ll certainly try it.
Wow! What a difference. Thanks for the tips.
The math is very much in line with what I've read, then done. And when you're close, an inch or 2 out or in, forward or back can make a noticable difference. But I have NEVER been able to make those speakers disappear. When good, the speakers are like the microphones, and the performance is behind and outside their placement. That's been like the holy grail for me. Great tutorial on the mechanics of getting it done. Thanks.
Thanks for the comment!
A good way to look at it is you want the sound to be coming from behind the speakers. When you accomplish that, then they are gone.
Marvellous! Thanks Ron.
Amazing video thanks!
Such a great video. I wish I could like it twice. Very helpful!
Great, brilliant, fantastisc. Haven't done my "homework" yet, but will the minute I have the time. I love Your work, thanks!
Good advise, going to have to try this.
Great video....!!!!
Can’t wait for your GR NX Studio video.
I m a new member and dammmm It s a LOTS of very good infos 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽 thanks a lot
You are most welcome!
Life changing video !! Thank you so much !
Good insight and good explanations. Thanks Eric!
Cool advice. About lights off: if you have any light dimmers, thyristors can be putting nasty electrical spikes on the mains supply. Lights off: no electrical spikes. Also LEDs are known to generate radio frequency (RF) interference (RFI). Neons indicators in power strips add white RF noise. RFI / electrical interference may be disturbing the mains frequency transformers of your gear leading to a more constricted sound. All the best, Rob
Thanks!
I normally have my own way. But this sounds very interesting. I got to try this. Thanks Ron!
Great tips Ron!
I really like this technique!.
Thanks , brother... I'm gonna try it today... Going away from near field.. let's see... I have all the faith..
Great tutorial thank you very much, from Mexico.
*damn this clarity and wide sound stage i never heard from my klipsch before. very nice, thx:.
One of the best videos I've seen so simple top draw terrific
Hey thanks!
👌🏼👌🏼 like the level of professionalism, can't get much better than this. Thanks for sharing the knowledge🤝🏼
I used painter's tape and moved the speakers an inch at a time. Listened over the course of three or four days. Outstanding sound stage and imaging as a result.
How far did they end up from your back wall
@@Chase1297 Floorstanders, about 6 feet to the wall.
I'm an Engineer so your approach makes a lot of sense to me, I can't wait to try this myself. You have a new subscriber! Thanks!
Welcome aboard!
That video was done really well. People need to hear differences in slight increments so they can determine the differences before arriving at the sweet spot.
Excellent video !! AND, SO HAPPY to see one of the LAST remaining BRICK AND MORTAR audio stores (where you can still audition the equipment) in MY area shown as your sponsor! Dave and his crew are simply wonderful, and I always let their name be known when I leave comments on the various audio review video channels. I am the very happy owner of a new Parasound Halo A-21 / Halo P6 combo driving Martin Logan ESL-9 electrostats and Kimber cable interconnects. ALL from Safe and Sound. This is the nicest sounding audio system I have ever owned and Dave put it all together. Their new warehouse is like a Home Depot, only all audio gear. Thanks again for a great, informative video presentation. (O:
Thank you for your advice
Wow! This is fantastic! Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Great video mate. Welldone.
Thank you for the useful advice
Thank you very much for your work and advices.
I hate you Ron, cause this works to perfection. My room is far from ideal and this method still worked. Unfortunately the speaker position has to be in the middle of the room. Guess I'll have to pull it out everytime i sit to listen for long hours. No big deal, totally worth it.
Gr8 vid for an ultra- fast learning curve on speaker placement.
Thanks for sharing this valuable inflation, Ron! I have enjoyed this video so much.
You just blew my mind!
Thank you very much for sharing.
Tank you so much, i tried it and it works great!
Such a great video in these hard times. Let’s go play with speaker placement.
cant wait to try this.
This is mother effing brilliant. Good job, you. 👌🏼
Thanks amigo!
I just finished with my media room and I'll be trying this out in a few days. Can't wait. Only problem is my room is only 9.5ft in length. So that's siting 3' 2" away. Not going to happen. I really can't change where I'll be sitting but the speaker position can be played with a bit. Thanks Ron!
Just drop in and say thank you for such an incredible advice! I played around with the speakers for the whole morning and i was fascinated. Not only me, but my wife too who doesn't know much about acoustic She could hear the difference. What's more, you van move your speakers wider or narrower to suit difficult genre of music if you need more vocal or soundstage. Wonderful
My wife told me there was something wrong when she was listening to an audio book because there was no sound coming out of the speakers (just the phantom center). I'm still playing around with placement.
Douglas sent me here
Very glad I watched this. superb work!
DMX is cooler than everyone. True story!
Great one! Thanks for sharing!
This is just crazy good 👍👍👍👍👍👍 I need to try this. Thank You!
Good video I followed your instructions from your previous speaker placement video and worked out great. Should do one for subwoofers placement.
Also try this
- put both speakers against the back wall
- pull only one forward until the bass goes from boomy to tight. 1/4 inch at a time, go slowly
- then pull the other speaker forward until the image of the singer is dead center (track much have a center placed singer)
- use a musical track that's well recorded.
In the end, your speakers will be very close to where your video puts them. One speaker will be a little closer, this compensates for asymmetry of most rooms (door on one side, window on the other..etc..) Everything snaps into focus when you hit the right locations.
You're amazing! This worked wonders in my odd small shaped room(10x10x9 effective). I am getting some GIk acoustic treatment soon. I had my speakers too far apart. I watched your small room video too. Took the best from both.
Awesomeness!
Thanks dude! Very interesting to learn and watch
That was great. I've learned I need to move my large Advent speakers.
So great ! Perfect. Thanks
Thanks for the great and simply explained video (greetings from Canada)
This was great Ron. Trouble is when your listening room is your living room and that is open plan. This is my dilemma, especially when I factor in the island bench kitchen. Love ya work!
Chainsaw?
🤭 got my speaks on standmounts with mini castors so they can be moved around easily but not in the dark...
A well thought out explanation